Brené Brown

You got me.

Checkmate.

But tell me about Richard Rohr, because I've heard you talk about his work at length and quote him very powerfully, but I haven't read it myself.

Oh, I love it.

I mean, I'm just thinking about all the paradoxes that fit within that.

I want to live in the moment and plan for the future.

I want to take care of others and make sure I'm not sacrificing myself.

I want to have autonomy and community.

Those are beautiful.

And I mean, all of these things, like you can't choose one over the other.

You know, you, you and Malcolm Gladwell, both like pushing me in the Jesuit direction.

And I, yeah, he, he loves Jesuit priests.

He did a whole podcast about like,

the Jesuit view of wrongdoing.

And I found it captivating and really compelling.

A wild pack?

It's so interesting.

It sounds like you never lost the allure of the Jesuit sensibility.

Clearly.

I mean, just the idea that a religious person can curse was sort of foreign to me until a couple of years ago, I was at a conference and one of the participants was a Jesuit priest.