Jake Humphrey

And what was the consequence of that?

For someone that would hear this and almost tune out of it, for what he tested positive for, what would that mean in terms of his ability as a fighter?

um and you know you also cross the ethical line but when it comes to boxing yeah that's when it can become extremely extremely dangerous the question that sort of jumps out for me james and i'm listening to this is have you reached a point where the biggest danger for sport isn't in the shadows it's almost like this this normalization of winning at all costs

beyond what is probably human you know it's quite unusual to train that much so so let's try and twist it to a more hope like a more hopeful lens in in your book can you tell us like the human cost that you saw for both the cheetah and the clean athlete yeah but there was i guess the starkest example

You know, as an athlete yourself, you're a risk taker.

You're putting yourself in the arena.

So I can see a lot of the arguments for why, if you can extend your career, if it makes that 12% difference you described that EPO can give you.

I can see why as an athlete you'd be seduced.

But for those of us that are not on that starting line, but are around these often young people, what do you think the cultural changes that we could all contribute to...

could start to shift the dial on this.

yeah it's fascinating like as you're saying it there I'm thinking like because I still think it's true isn't it like Lance Armstrong has never failed a drugs test in the sport it's his own admission but that was funded by was it the CIA going after him at the time rather than

rather than the doping off.

Yeah, yeah.

So as researching and writing this brilliant book, has it spoiled your enjoyment of elite level sport?

Yeah, tell us a story about her.

you know i tend to watch amateur football locally so maybe that's that's my way okay i'm mentally keeping clean or it might just be budgetary reasons oh well james honestly it's been an absolute pleasure to speak to you on this and i think your book if nothing else it makes you think you know what i mean that and rather than just unquestioningly accepting what we're told

from the main protagonists I think giving you the chance to stop and think and reflect is a valuable service so congratulations on it and thank you for sharing some of the some of the insights and the research and the stories from it oh no thank you Damien and thank you again for your Manchester United the Ferguson book from years ago oh yeah okay thank you that was a cracker but no thank you for your time I think it's been fascinating speaking to you will you be watching the enhanced games Damien

Yeah, I will.

But with sort of like a curious intrigue.

I think, as that conversation with James was saying there, at least it's transparent.