Mike Liberty

And I would say that kind of pulled together the various parts of my background because I

Coming again from that blackjack background, the finance background, I kind of saw how you could leverage additional information to get an edge.

And in this case, it was an edge over fraudsters.

And then from the finance and insurance background, it was, all right, well, we can actually do this profitably where we're protecting a merchant and guaranteeing them, providing them that certainty about what the cost is actually going to be.

Yeah, so we started out in the mid-market and what was really fascinating there was a merchant would run into a fraud problem really right at the moment that they were experiencing explosive growth.

So your product takes off, let's say, and...

you suddenly become a target for fraudsters and aren't equipped to deal with it.

So it was kind of intrinsic in the business that you don't want to shut down that growth, which would a lot of these middle market merchants that were

growing explosively we're facing.

And so like from the very beginning, it was, well, we don't want to stop these good buyers that are actually making this person's business successful, but what we need to do is prevent the fraudsters.

And so then as we've moved up market over time, it was already built into our DNA, so to speak.

We never came in at it as simply fraud people.

And what we always say is it's easy to stop all fraud.

you just stop taking orders.

You lose the plot there.

The whole point is that you want to protect the orders while allowing those good buyers in.

And so what we often would tell people, and we still tell people who join my team in risk, is you've got to look for the good in these orders.

So tell the story of why a buyer is making this purchase.

Search for that reason.

And then everything that remains, you could take a deeper look at.