Tahlia Isaac

I mean, that's just one extra thing.

We also need more education in prison.

Less lockdowns, more resources, therapy.

There's a whole heap of stuff we need to do.

They need to be redesigned.

I got a bit impassioned before.

They're disconnected.

Absolutely.

So that's... Ken's a wise man.

If we... I mean...

There is nothing to be taken away from victims of people who have had horrific crimes happen to them.

Absolutely no way I want to take away anything from those people.

But like you say, like about Ken, often if we sat down with people who have been victims or their families have been victims of horrific crime,

Often, after time, right, because there's anger and there's emotion, but after time, they don't want that person to get out and do it to another person's family.

Yeah, and often with transformative and restorative justice, if they were to sit with the person who committed that offence, or if we even asked the victim's family or the victim or survivor,

What do you want?

How do you feel?

But they don't get a say.

Yeah.

But if we did ask them, and I don't want to speak for all of them, but most of them would probably say, of course I don't want them to be treated like animals.