Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Hey everybody, this is Thomas Germain from The Interface, the show that decodes the technology that's rewiring your week and your world. On this week's episode, we'll talk about how you can use AI without turning your brain to mush, our self-driving cars getting worse, and the secret campaign to make you afraid of Chinese AI.
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This program contains discussions of violence and loss, which some listeners may find upsetting.
Definitely.
Chapter 2: What challenges do survivors face when perpetrators return?
They are the ones who killed my family. Among the recent released prisoners, how many perpetrators did you recognize? I recognized four. In Rwanda, some men convicted over the genocide have now returned home after decades in prison. For those who survived, that return raises difficult questions, not only moral questions, but spiritual ones too.
How do you live alongside someone who helped destroy your family? I even paid them a visit in their homes. Someone told me about it and I went to see them. And we had a chat. I told them to be strong and assured them that what happened in our country will never happen again. That is what I told them. You said that when you went to see them, you told them to be strong. Why?
Because we have forgiven them and that nothing else can happen after forgiveness. You are listening to the documentary from the BBC World Service. I am Felenga Kwaya, and for heart and soul, I am in Rwanda, speaking to survivors and perpetrators of the 1994 genocide against the Tutsi and asking what forgiveness means when the people who killed your family come home.
Well, they were released towards the end of last year. This year started with them already released from jail. The man you've just heard is Danio Gassangwa. He's 75 years old and lives in Bugesera in the eastern province of Rwanda. A bald-haired man in blue suit without a tie, Danio is very calm.
And when the men who had killed the members of his family were released, he went to find them himself. When I heard the news, I did not believe it. I was like, then? Released? How come? Okay, let me go and see. There was a friend of mine I wanted to see there. A friend who helped us during those difficult times.
So when I arrived, I asked him about them, and he took me where they are gathered at a pub and joined me. To understand why Daniel says he forgave, you first have to understand what he lost. During the genocide, his wife was killed, as well as four of his eight children. He came back from the genocide. During the 1994 genocide, things were very difficult and we were evacuated to Burundi.
My children and the mother hid in the house. Others ran from gunfire. When people saw them, they said, look, those are Kasangwa's children. They hit them with hoes. And my wife was killed instantly. And yet, alongside the people who murdered, there were also others who hid and protected his family.
When I returned from Burundi, I found that Muruga Thama's family had hidden my children, and they survived. I went with the soldiers and brought back all four children. I had eight children. Only four survived. So for Daniel, the road to forgiveness did not begin with forgetting what had been done. It began with something else.
The knowledge that even in the middle of the killing, some people chose to save life. When we returned to Rwanda, and reunited with our families. We realized not everyone was bad. We also had good preachers who taught us to forgive. They taught us that those who shed blood will face consequences.
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Chapter 3: How does Daniel Gasangwa choose to forgive the killers of his family?
Actually, we try to rehabilitate. These perpetrators who are being released from jail are Rwandese. They committed crimes. Some of them confessed they are wrong. They confessed to their families. They're going back. But they are coming back home strangers because Rwanda has changed. The worldview has changed completely.
The attitude of the people, the understanding, the comprehension, the business mind is changed. So they are coming home with some kind of inferiority complex. We need to help them adjust to that change so that they can be productive in society. Is it working? Yes, it is. It will work. It's not over yet. We have still long to go, but we are persistent.
That's why we have in Menebumwe unity and reconciliation and resilience. And these children live together. They don't see a muhutu mututsi. They don't see mutwa in their own faces, but they see Rwandese and friends and dear brothers and sisters in the Lord Jesus. They love each other. That's reconciliation. Reconciliation is not necessarily the word reconciliation. Reconciliation is practical.
Reconciliation is living together. In these villages we are talking about, we have constructed, in the lives we are living together, in the churches, all the work, all the friendship, all the intermarriages that are taking place, all interrelationships, business sharing, partnership in business, all is reconciliation. Reconciliation to me as a bishop is not the word, is not the grades of people.
It's not the amount of money, the poor and the rich. No, it's that ability, that test of loving each other and living together and producing together. And expect a common destiny together. Bishop Ruchahana speaks about reconciliation as something spiritual, but also something difficult, slow and deeply painful. Not everyone's route to forgiveness has looked the same. Stephen Ngabonziza is 72.
His story begins not in the church, but in fighting. We fled to Burundi after my wife and children had been killed. I didn't stay long because a lonely life in a refugee camp was unbearable. I returned to Rwanda to help liberate that country. I captured an enemy soldier from the enemy side of Habiaimana. I wanted to shoot him, but they stopped me.
I said, they are shooting at us and now I have captured him. You tell me to spare him? They told me revenge was forbidden in the army. I handed him over with his weapon and continued fighting. That's where I learned not to take revenge. Later, I was demobilized and given a job as a prison guard. In which prison? It was Wirima prison. I found people there whom I knew.
At first, I refused to go, telling the ministry I could not guard a prison that held those who killed my family. I asked to be sent to Nyanza instead. They told me Nyanza had fewer prisoners, while Wirima had many and needed more manpower. So I had to go to Ririma. Once there, I found those who killed my relatives. My duty was to ensure no prisoner escaped. That was my responsibility.
But didn't you meet and talk with them since you knew each other? Yes, I did talk to them. When they came to the store to collect food, they noticed I had reinforced security to prevent escapes, and we would talk. Even when the fights broke out inside the prison, I would step in and calm them down. Was this because you were following orders as in the army, or because your heart had found peace?
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Chapter 4: What personal losses did Daniel endure during the genocide?
It was also from the military orders that I had learned. And in prison, we had rules. No prisoner should be harmed. If anyone tried to escape, the rule was to shoot them in the leg, never to kill. During my time, no one ever escaped. Stephen is careful when he talks about forgiveness. He does not turn it into a simple or mid-heartwarming story.
He says it began with orders, with prison rules, with the work of reconciliation. But I wanted to know whether, after all that, it had become something deeper, something that now lived in him. Did you later socialize together? Were you neighbors in a way that you could meet and attend ceremonies together? We live in different but nearby villages. I live in Yabagengwa. We often meet and talk.
Just recently, one of his children got married. I made my contributions and attended their wedding. You see? But as a human being, when you see him, doesn't your heart feel anguish? No. I don't get scared when I see him. There is no problem between us. Don't you have fear that what happened before could happen again? No. It doesn't pose any danger. We are all united now.
Leaders have a responsibility to encourage us to live in peace and avoid anything that could bring back conflict. You are listening to the documentary from the BBC World Service.
The crew of NASA's Artemis II mission have returned home safely after successfully completing their groundbreaking voyage around the moon. Splashdown confirmed. Humans are back in the business of going to the moon. But while the mission is over, the Artemis space program is just getting started.
13 Minutes, the BBC space podcast, is looking back on their epic journey and discovering what the future holds for the Artemis space program. Just imagine what we as humans can do next. 13 Minutes presents Artemis II from the BBC World Service. Listen now, wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Is all the money wasted on international level lemonade? Calm down, it's Pirkka.
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I am Felenga Kwaya, and for heart and soul, I am in Rwanda, speaking to survivors and perpetrators of the 1994 genocide and asking what forgiveness means when those who killed your family return home. So far you've heard from survivors, but forgiveness is never only one person's story. It also asks something of the one who seeks it.
Viate Ruribichie was imprisoned for crimes committed during the genocide. He now speaks about confession, pardon, and God. So, I'm going to read out this letter here. I, Ruribichie Viata, on 25th October, 2022, I confess to crimes I committed during the genocide against the Tutsi.
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Chapter 5: How do Rwandans publicly demonstrate forgiveness?
Not the idea of reconciliation, but the sound of it. Men whose lives were once divided by unimaginable violence, now sitting together, talking, remembering, even laughing. Yes, he has actually reminded me. Stephen, I remember there were some greedy inmates. Because I remember Stephen used to tell them, well, I'm not trying to praise him because he's here.
He used to address other inmates saying, look, you're in jail because of the genocide, killing the Tutsi. And on top of that, you want to starve your own people to death? Instead of praying to God to get you out of here, you want to commit another genocide against your own people inside this state of yours? Something good he did for you that you remember. What is it?
I remember one day he called me. There was a prison break. And then the warden decided to stop giving us food. So he called me and asked if everything was okay. I told him I was dying of hunger. So he offered to get me out of prison. I didn't know what was on his mind.
Then he told me he could get me out and take me to a construction site where we used to work and get used to activities that were meant to facilitate our rehabilitation and socialization with survivors. So we went out to the field and worked at the site, then came back to prison. I mean, he did a lot for me. But Gassangwa and I, we live in harmony, like you see how we are seated together.
When I heard the news, I was so excited. That might be the deepest thing in these conversations. Not that forgiveness is spoken about, but that it has to be lived. In prison, in villages, at weddings, in shared food, in memories that have not gone away. All of them, we are good friends now. Those from the neighborhood, including Gasangwa and Steven, who came with me.
When I began this conversation, I thought I was asking about Lilis from prison. But what I heard again and again was something harder to explain. Forgiveness as prayer. Forgiveness as discipline. Forgiveness as confession. Not forgetting. Not excusing. But somehow living on. You've been listening to the documentary from the BBC World Service.
I am Feleng Akwaya, and this was Heart and Soul in Rwanda. The producer was Rajiv Gupta. Thanks for listening.
The crew of NASA's Artemis II mission have returned home safely after successfully completing their groundbreaking voyage around the Moon.
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Chapter 6: What role does faith play in the forgiveness process for survivors?
Splashdown confirmed. Humans are back in the business of going to the Moon. But while the mission is over, the Artemis space program is just getting started. 13 Minutes, the BBC Space podcast, is looking back on their epic journey and discovering what the future holds for the Artemis Space Program. Just imagine what we as humans can do next.
13 Minutes presents Artemis II from the BBC World Service. Listen now, wherever you get your BBC podcasts.