Ali Abdaal
Appearances
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
This episode is sponsored in part by Vital Proteins. If you wanna support your skin, hair, nails, joints, and bones without adding another complicated step to your routine, check out Vital Proteins Collagen Peptides. Collagen is like the glue that holds everything together in your body. It's a big deal.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
But other times, and I always have to remember this lesson, you know those guys that DM you and they're like, do you want new subscribers for your whatever? What I started doing is I started saying, can you show me proof of results? And What some of these brilliant individuals will do is send you screenshots of them talking with another popular podcaster.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
And they're like, look, I've worked with this guy for years. And I'm like, so what you're telling me is this popular show is buying downloads from you, a dude in Bangladesh who runs a click farm. And I'm like, oh, I spent a lot of time feeling pretty bad about how I was doing in comparison to that person, and they are cheating.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
Not everybody who's doing better than you is cheating, but some people are. And it's important to sort of remember, I've seen plenty of people who aren't cheating and they're doing really well with something. And again, you meet that person in real life, you put a couple of whiskeys in them and they have a chat and you realize, oh, they're a complete workaholic. I would not want their life.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
This is not just coped. There's something I've learned from, I think, Ryan Holiday, and I should really pinpoint where I picked this up. If you want to trade something about your life with someone else, you really kind of have to trade your whole life with that person. You can't just be like, I want to be as successful as Tom Brady in this area and as successful as Barack Obama in that area.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
And as successful as LeBron James in this area, that's ridiculous because nobody is all those people put together, even the people that you just mentioned who are world class. Why are you doing this to yourself? So if you are willing to trade one area of your life, look at this guy, he's got 15 million subscribers and I only have 5.6 or whatever it was this morning when I checked your channel.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
We talk about imposter syndrome, building relationships, financial freedom and values, prioritizing happiness, balancing career and family, the role of money in parenting, and really prioritizing things like experiences and children. It's really kind of a lifestyle-ish episode. It goes into a bit more of my values and, of course, Ali sharing his values as well on this topic.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
You have to be willing to trade your life. Say goodbye to your beautiful fiance. Can't have that. You got to be this guy over here who all they do is live, eat, and breathe YouTube. Is that what you want for yourself? Probably not. This person still grinds hardcore like it's day one. Why? They're miserable, secretly or not secretly. Do you want that person's life?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
Because if you do, you'll get those 15 million subscribers, but at the cost of your sanity and the fact that you have work-life balance. There's a reason people achieve certain things, and it's because their whole life is geared towards those things.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
It is. So you find varying levels of delusion and or self-awareness among these people. I don't mean all successful people are delusional. Hear me out here. The person who says you need work-life balance, to your point, often had absolutely no work-life balance whatsoever through their 20s and likely their 30s.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
And the cold truth is, if you look at statistics, I think Scott Galloway, who you may or may not know, he goes through this. I think he's the one who told me this. You should not seek work-life balance in your 20s and probably your 30s if you want to be financially successful and at the top of your game in your 40s and 50s. It's just not realistic.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
There's nothing wrong with seeking work-life balance in those early years. That's great. Live a good lifestyle. You will not have the same career results as the person who worked 60, 80-hour work weeks at the law firm. That person will become a partner. You will either be transitioned out or you'll hate it enough to where you transition yourself out.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
There's nothing wrong with that, but it is a choice. It's delusional to think for most industries. Again, if you're an entrepreneur, maybe it's literally impossible. If you're a Wall Streeter or a surgeon, maybe it's impossible. For most careers, there may be a varying degree of what you can get away with and do. But for a lot of high-performing careers, no.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
You're not going to have work-life balance in your 20s and 30s. You're just going to grind really hard, sacrifice a lot, maybe go out on the weekends sometimes, but maybe not. And then you are going to be wildly successful in your 40s and 50s early in the game. Another sort of trope that I hear a lot that I think is nonsense is people will say follow your passion.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
None of those successful people, barring maybe a few artists and creators, have followed their passion. Again, Scott Galloway, I think, is one who said, the person who told you to follow your passion made billions of dollars in iron smelting. And that could not be more accurate. I hear these guys say follow your passion, and I don't think they are lying. I think they think that's what happened.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
I don't want to throw anyone under the bus. I've heard billionaires say, follow your passion. That's a great commencement speech. They didn't do that. Or their passion was sleeping on a floor while they started a clothing company. Was that all passion? It's debatable. It's debatable whether that's all passion.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
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The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
So I thought, look, all of you who wrote in said you really enjoyed it. So I thought I would put it in the feed and I hope you all enjoy it as well. Now, here we go with me and Ali Abdaal.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
They made billions of dollars in clothing or they made billions of dollars in a tech thing and then in investing. Maybe they were passionate about that. You have to ask yourself if you are passionate about that. The answer is usually no.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
Yeah, so I'm completely okay with that. Here's the kind of cold truth, according to me. So take it or leave it. You can follow your passion and you will probably be happier than somebody who just gets a lucrative career. You probably will. But you can't expect to follow your passion and also have a lucrative career. Not impossible.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
I certainly followed mine into podcasting and creating audio and it's a very lucrative career. I am really freaking lucky that that worked out. I was early to market in podcasting. It's been 17 years, like I said. This is how early I was.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
When I was interviewing authors and deconstructing high performers and talking about that stuff with Tim Ferriss, he hadn't written his books yet, and no one was interviewing successful people and talking about what they did. That was a novel concept. Now, if you say I'm starting a podcast and I'm gonna talk to successful people and break down what they do, people are like, oh, really?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
Cool, we need another one of those, right? It's just like ridiculous at this point. My shows evolved over time, obviously, but it was novel back then. That's how early in the game this was. And I expected to take a massive pay cut from being a lawyer. I was a Wall Street finance attorney. That was one of the best sort of banky jobs that you could get.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
I remember the conversation with myself saying, am I comfortable making like 30% maybe, if I'm lucky, of what I was making on Wall Street? and just loving what I do. And then I had to budget and see if I could afford it and talk to my parents and see what that was like. And they were like, you can still live a decent-ish lifestyle if your wife has a good job as well, and blah, blah, blah.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
Oh, Dave, yeah. So Dave was a partner at my old law firm, so I used to be an attorney, just like you used to be a doctor. Good thing we did all that schooling, huh? That was nice. Those student loans are fun. And I was, at one point, just like fumbling through – figuring that they were going to fire me at any point working at this law firm, because I had imposter syndrome.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
Now, of course, I make in two weeks what I thought I was gonna make in a year, but that's largely due to luck and timing. And that's not a strategy that anybody should seek to replicate.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
You turned your hobby into a job. Yeah, exactly.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
I appreciate that. And two, I agree with that. Turning, it's funny because in my notes to talk with you about I had turning your hobby into a job, I almost always think that is a mistake. Because, and again, with podcasting, I happen to be really, really interested in it and love the conversational element. You can tell there are a lot of podcasters that really, they're not that curious.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
They just want a lucrative business and they are really good at social media or something like that. That's fine. That works for them. But it's definitely work, and you can tell. For me, it doesn't feel like work, which is so fortunate and lucky. But I don't, again, I do not think that's a strategy most people can replicate.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
I think a lot of people rush to turn their hobby into a job, and they ruin it. They ruin it. If you love painting, the last thing you should do is try to make a living being a painter. Sell your paintings. All you want. Once you quit your day job and you have to paint and they have to sell and you have to market them, you're going to enjoy 10% of that job. There's a lot of bad advice out there.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
Again, I won't throw anyone under the bus, but you see these influencer guys being like, go all in. Quit your day job and then you burn the ships and then you have to have your business succeed. That is a terrible piece of advice. Because what happens is you then have to do whatever it takes to quote unquote succeed. But what that usually means is pay your rent.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
Now you have to either cut corners, maybe do some sheisty sales stuff, sell a product that's not ready. There's absolutely no reason to burn the ships and go all in. If you're starting a business, and I'm wondering if you kicked off this way when you were a
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
If you're starting a business, you should outsource everything possible that you cannot do yourself, and then and only then, once your time is the bottleneck on the business, should you even think about resigning your actual day job. What I see is a lot of folks that they quit their day job, and then they're like, okay, I guess I gotta do social media now, and they spend all their time
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
tweeting and doing, and it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Someone else could have made all, you're editing these little videos. What are you doing? You're spending three hours editing TikTok videos. You can outsource that crap and you could have kept your job designing semiconductors that paid you $400,000 a year. No, now you're struggling to make $40,000 a year selling sheets on the internet.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
What did you do that for? You're listening to The Jordan Harbinger Show. This is me with Ali Abdaal. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Shopify. Take ShopPay, for example. It's not just fast and seamless. It can boost conversions by up to 50%, turning hesitant shoppers into take-my-money customers.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
But back then, I didn't know what that was, right? I didn't think that everybody thought they were going to get found out as a fraud and fired from every first job that they had or every school they went to. And it turns out that's something that high performers deal with all the time. And I'm not saying I was a high performer.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
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The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
Customers who stroll into your store because they were just in the neighborhood, Shopify's got that too. Businesses that grow, grow with Shopify.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
This episode is sponsored in part by Airbnb. You know, if you ever thought about hosting your place on Airbnb but found it a little bit overwhelming, here's some good news. It's way easier than it seems now. You don't even have to do all the work yourself. Airbnb's co-host network has you covered. Basically, you can hire a local co-host to take care of your home and your guests while you're away.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
Imagine this. You're off on a summer-long adventure in Europe, hopping between Paris, Rome, and Barcelona, and your home is just sitting there, empty. Instead of letting it sit unused, you could have a local co-host manage everything while you're away. They can handle the guest check-ins, the cleaning, and even any last-minute issues that pop up.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
So while you're sipping wine in Tuscany, your home is not only taken care of, it's also making you extra cash. For somebody like me who's often out of town, this feels like such a practical way to make a little bit of extra cash without having to do any of the heavy lifting myself. And it's not just about the money, right? It's a smart move. Very little work on my part.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
Why not put your place to work while you're away, right? If you've got unused space, you're heading out of town for a while, this is definitely a no-brainer. Find a co-host at airbnb.com slash host. If you're wondering how I managed to book all these great authors, thinkers, and creators, this is so weird because it's just an interview with me. But something, something, something.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
Sign up for 6-Minute Networking. It's a free course. It's over at 6minutenetworking.com. The course is not cringy. It's going to make you a better colleague, a better connector, or a better peer. It takes a few minutes a day, and many of the guests on the show... such as myself, apparently. Subscribe and contribute to the course. Come on and join us. You'll be in smart company where you belong.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
Once again, for free over at 6minutenetworking.com. All right, back to stroking my own ego here with Ali Abdaal.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
In fact, I really thought I was at the bottom of the barrel, barely got into law school, was not in the, you know, those bars on websites that show like, this is what our average scores are. of that or below that. So that's not a great way to start law school or medical school. You just go, oh, I'm like below the average person that gets in here. Not a good feeling.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
It doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any sense. Look, startups or something like that, totally different case. Then you're getting investors. They're essentially paying you to live or you're living in the couch in the office. That's a very San Francisco type thing. But you're not quitting your day job. You're just going all in on a really piss poor slash unpaid startup.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
That's a different scenario. You see these influencer guys being like, quit your day job and go all in. So you get a guy who's a waiter and is making enough to survive and then is, I don't know, let's say flipping something on the side, e-commerce. Then they quit the server job. Okay, so now you're just going to have to imagine what to do with those extra hours.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
You're working a ton, but you're still getting basically the same results out of your e-commerce thing. So you're not getting enough to survive. You're stressed as hell. Your back is against the wall. Some people need that motivation. That's unsustainable though. So if you need that level of motivation to just work on your business, is that the right business for you? I don't know about that.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
I think if you're gonna run away from your day job, you should be running to something. Like, I can't wait to edit my YouTube video after work. Oh, I have so many great ideas for my next video. I love this podcasting thing. I can't wait to do that. I love this. I wish I could do this all day every day, but I've gotta go to this job. That's what you should be running to.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
What most people do is they are running from something. I hate my boss. He's terrible. He makes my life miserable. I hate my job. It makes me feel insignificant. So then they start a business. That's their escape hatch. So they can't wait to flip that shit open and dive through there, right? They're running away from something. That is not a good idea.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
So I start realizing that bringing in business is a relationship game and it's not like a hard course. I literally at that time thought, huh, I guess people don't find lawyers by just looking in the phone book and looking up law firms and hiring them. Of course they don't. These are super high trust deals. An investment banker gives the deal to his roommate from law school.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
So when I got to the law firm after graduating law school, Dave was never in the office. And I thought, okay, if I also figure out how to never be in the office, they won't find out that I'm secretly a moron and fire me.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
Because that's how it works. They can't afford to have this screwed up. They know the guy's really smart. They can trust the guy. They can call him at home if they need to. They're not going to trust this to some random schmo. This is a multi-million dollar deal or more that's going to go on for years at a time. So you have to build those relationships.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
And I remember asking Dave, so how do you build those relationships? And he was like, just be cool, man. It'll all be fine. And I was like, let me tell you something. If just be cool was actionable advice, do you think I would have become a lawyer in the first place? Lawyers are known for a lot of things. Being cool, not one of those things, okay?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
So this guy was not giving me something that I could really use. He was really just giving me platitudes. And the more people I asked for their networking or relationship advice, the more platitudes I got. I even took Dale Carnegie courses and stuff like that because I was like, these guys have it figured out. And a lot of that was principles that were useful, like be interested in other people.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
But if you're not getting a job or a deal or whatever it is, it's not because you didn't look them in the eye and have a firm handshake. It's because they liked and trusted someone else more than you. Like and trust stuff, that's not built off of like, oh, he looked me in the eye and he gave me a firm handshake.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
That's getting a minimum wage job at a supermarket and the owner takes a chance on you because he looked me in the eye and he had a firm handshake. Nice kid, that Ali. Yeah.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
right that's that no one's giving you a million dollar deal because of your handshake yeah so you have to do more than that and so even these dale carnegie courses where they're teaching you like the memory palace to remember that some guy's kid played tennis those people come across really fake and you just can't actually fake being interested in somebody it doesn't work very well at least i'm terrible at it it's hard to do i have to actually be interested in somebody
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
So the quickest way I found to develop relationships is to help other people without the attachment to getting anything in return. And it's scalable and it's very tough to do that over time because most people want something and you have to help other people thinking this person may never be able to help me with anything ever again. And I just have to be okay with that.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
I can work from home and it'll take them longer to find out that I'm a total fraud and shouldn't have ever been hired in the first place, by which time I may have figured out how to do this job and be useful enough that they won't fire me. It still sort of makes sense when I put it like that. Yeah, I hope.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
And I'm not talking about designing websites for free for everybody who asks. I'm talking about making introductions to other people who can help them. That's the only way this is scalable. So let's say that you're like, hey, I want some interesting podcast guests when I come to California.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
I don't have to book those guests for you, but what I would do is introduce you to people that live near me and in the cities where you're going that I think are interesting, that I think would also say yes to doing your podcast, and I can just do that kind of thing, right? And I can do that for somebody who's looking for a job in a field.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
I might know somebody who runs a business in that area, and I can ask them for advice, or I could say, would you hire this person as an intern? They're actually pretty cool, if I can vouch for them. I do that kind of stuff every single day. It's usually done by email.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
The difference is what I hear from, and I thought this is not rocket science, but what I hear from other folks when I give this advice is they'll go, yeah, I know people have asked me for this, but I just kind of never responded. I'm thinking, what a missed opportunity this is. But yeah, but I'm really busy and I get a lot of email. I believe you.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
However, I'm pretty sure that you don't get more email than I do. It's not a contest, but you and I get a lot of email, I'm sure. I will help any random person that reaches out to me if I can with advice or with an introduction. And that has earned a crap load of social capital and goodwill. Those people I normally assume will never actually be able to do anything for me in return.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
However, I'm wrong at least 1% of the time. And that 1% of the time turns out to be kind of a big deal. I helped somebody the other day with something completely insignificant, in my opinion. And he goes, let me know if you ever need a guest for your podcast. I thought he was talking about himself. I was like, thanks. I appreciate that.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
And he's like, yeah, because I'm working with A-list celebrity on a project called And I was like, really? That person would be amazing. And he goes, oh, yeah, I'm literally seeing him tomorrow. I bet you he would do your podcast. I'm going to ask him. And that blew my mind because this person was asking me to introduce them to my web designer. So I earned my web designer a referral.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
He was very stoked. And this guy was like, thank you. I've gone through five web guys and the first three ripped me off and the other two did a crap job. I'm like, oh, you're going to be taken care of. And now I might get this really, really interesting guy for my podcast because he has a good relationship with him. I had no idea that he had that relationship. That is not why I helped him.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
So when you help 100 people, if 99% of them never do anything for you, but you're helping them in a scalable way, you are kicking ass. You get the short end of the stick 99 out of 100 times. Collect all those short sticks.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
So Dave was also supposed to be my mentor, which is basically at that point, a checkbox on a form that human resources makes them sign. So other people's mentors were like, let's go out for drinks once a week and talk about your career. And again, Dave is never in the office. So I, HR is like, How is your mentorship going? And I'm like, I don't even, I've never seen the guy. I saw him one time.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
I tried, it was quite difficult, but what I did was I realized going to those meetups where you drive across town and you're like, lawyer's happy hour, that was a nonsense way to do this. It's a lot of takers at networking events because they go to network. Most people, again, only build relationships. The phrase I've stolen is dig the well before you're thirsty. Usually people don't do that.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
They are dying of thirst before they decide to network. And what that means is they go up to you and ask you for a job. And if you can't help them, they move on to the next person or whatever. They ask you for something. You don't meet good connections or network or build relationships at networking events most of the time.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
So what I started doing was applying the help other people without the attachment of anything in return. And how I applied that during my very short-lived legal career was When people were asking me how my law firm job was, I was brutally honest with them, the positives and the negatives.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
I asked other lawyers in the firm for their advice or opinions on things people were asking me who are still in law school or other lawyers who are thinking about joining our firm. I arranged groups of people to meet up and go out that were maybe thinking about switching jobs.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
And I just facilitated those nights of drinks where we would all go hang out and just turned out to be just like a clique of dudes that liked each other and a few women. And I helped people who were moving to New York, regardless of what industry they were in.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
Because when I first, this is sort of probably a problem that doesn't exist anymore with the internet and all the websites that are out there. But back then, you could look on Craigslist and maybe find an apartment that wasn't a scam. But most people didn't know where any of the neighborhoods were, how quick they needed to move around the city, none of that.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
So I sort of translated a lot of those things and said, you're working on Wall Street, don't live above whatever, 14th Street, because it's going to be a pain in the ass during rush hour. And I would say, these are the neighborhoods you should be looking in. Here's the abbreviation for those neighborhoods that you'll find on Craigslist. And I just continue. In fact, I still do that.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
When I moved to LA, I still did that. I got a call from a friend who grew up with my next door neighbor when I was in law school. And he's like, yes, so-and-so said I could call you. I helped him move to LA. And years later, I ran into him. He goes, Jordan. I was like, do I know you? He goes, yeah, you helped me move out here. I said, oh, right. I remember that call.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
He's like, I'll never forget how much you helped me when I moved out here. And I said, so what do you do here? And he's like, I'm in charge of booking all these studios. And I said, really? And he's like, yeah, anytime you need a studio, I will make sure you get one. And you're never, you're not going to pay for it. I'm always going to comp it. And that wasn't something I could have planned.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
Right. And it's really easy to do this stuff. This is not a massive time investment per person. Somebody sends me a text. What is UWS again? Upper West side. Oh, thank you. Don't go there. It's too far from where your office is. Oh, okay. Good to know. Hey, this person says this. That sounds like a scam. Don't bring them into cash. You're going to get mugged. Okay, thanks.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
I mean, that's what I was doing. You can do that a hundred times a week and it's no skin off your nose.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
Yeah. Is that Bob Berg?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
Yeah. It's so good.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
Yeah.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
So it's funny. The reason I said give without the attachment to getting something in return is because I used to say give without the expectation of getting something in return. And I was having dinner with Bob Berg and he goes, well, the attachment is better because – and he had this whole reason. So I just switched to saying attachment because you can expect something in return.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
And so I think they made him come into the office, which he loved, by the way, and take me to coffee at Starbucks in the basement of our building. Meanwhile, like I said, other people are going out for drinks. They're going to the steakhouse. They're going to see Blue Man Group. They have a real relationship with their so-called mentor, and I don't. And Dave's like, ask me anything you want.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
But if you're not attached and you don't get anything, it's fine. But if you are attached to getting something in return, now you're keeping score. And I don't know how philosophical you want to get on this, but if I drive you to the airport and then I drive you to the airport again, I'm a good friend.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
But if I drive you to the airport a bunch of times and then I ask you to drive me and you go, hey, dude, I can't. I've got a podcast and I can't help you with this one. If I'm attached to getting something in return, I'm like, Ali's such a selfish prick, man. I've driven that guy to the airport three times. I ask him once and he's got a podcast. Suddenly he can't do it. He doesn't feel good.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
So now I've poisoned the well. I'm mad at you. You have no idea why, because it's unreasonable. There's a covert contract, right? In my mind, I decided you owed me that. That's not really a good way to go through life. But you can expect that at some point you'll drive me to the airport or maybe you'd pick up dinner once or something like that. And hey, we're good.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
So you don't want to start keeping score. That's one of the big no-nos of any sort of relationship in your life.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
Right. I agree with that. I think if somebody is asking a lot of you and they're not entertaining any requests from your end, there's a good chance that they're taking advantage of you. The only way to know that is over time.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
You should definitely not drive somebody to the airport and then they don't pick up your calls and never hang out with you or do anything for you unless they need something and they call you. These people out themselves eventually because you never hear from them unless they need something from you. There's a lot of people like that in the world. Some of them are very selfish.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
Others are just unaware. You get to decide what your boundary is. But it's not always that person's taking advantage of me. Sometimes people are just self-centered. You get to decide what you will tolerate. Of course, there are reasonable limits. But again, you get to decide what those are. I hate to prescribe something.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
Like if you drive somebody to the airport three times and they never drive you, they're not your real friend. Eh, I wouldn't go that far. This is the Jordan Harbinger Show. It's me with Ali Abdaal today. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Audible. Audible's best of 2024 picks are here.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
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The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
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The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
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The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
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The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
And he's typing away on his Blackberry, like, sure, ask me anything, kid. And I'm like, how come you're never in the office, but people say that you're one of the highest paid partners? And he's like, wait, people are saying I'm never in the office? So now I'm like, cool, I'm definitely getting fired now because I stepped in it at a Starbucks in the basement of this office building.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
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The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
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The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
But when companies see that people are responding to the ad, they're more likely to continue their partnership with us. So if you decide to sign up or buy something, please use the code Jordan. It's usually code Jordan. It's not always. You got to go to the deals page to check that. But it's a double win. You get a great deal. You help us keep the show thriving.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
And thank you so much for the support. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are over at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. Now for the rest of part one with me and Ali Abdaal.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
I wholeheartedly agree. That's what I'm doing here in London, by the way. There's something called the podcast show that's going on right now. And I'm giving a talk or two there. However, I've carved out the whole week. I've got interviews and stuff like this one. However, if someone's like breakfast tomorrow, I'm not like, what company is this person at? Do I want to spend that time?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
What else could I be? I'm like, yes, right? Because I'm saying no to the random coffee that's next week when I'm off, when I'm hanging out with my family. So I carve out time to do that. It's almost always at events because there's people from Spotify and Apple and other companies in town, but there's also people that are working for companies I've never heard of that might be doing something.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
And I will spend time with all of those people all week long. It will be exhausting and fun. And then I don't feel bad about saying no when they ask me in a month. I say, no, I'll catch you at Podcast Movement in Washington, D.C. in August. What's your take on hopping on random Zoom calls with people? I don't do that. Well, actually, that's an overstatement. I usually don't do that.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
Yeah, to serving to your coffee, smoothie, even water. It doesn't taste like anything, so it just blends right in.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
There has to be a certain bar that gets met. If you introduced me to somebody and they were like, let's chat, I would say yes. If somebody emails me cold and is like, I would like to get to know you, let's hop on a Zoom, I will probably say no. And the reason is because they haven't told me what this thing is about.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
Well, he wasn't thrilled with that, but he didn't shoot the messenger. And he told me, well, I'm usually out generating business for this law firm. Being in the office is a waste of my time. Billing hours is kind of a waste of my time. Yes, I need to do it, but I just oversee projects. So I was like, are you working from home? He's like, yes and no.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
Even if they were like, I really need to learn about this and you're the only person who can teach me, then I would probably say yes. But if they just seem to have passing curiosity, that is not enough for me to justify that kind of thing.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
But if they wrote to me and they said, I know you can't do Zooms, but I don't understand how this works and you're one of the only people who can explain it, I'll probably send them a message back and explain it. So I try to accomplish that without just saying yes to every sort of random request.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
Because I launched my show 17 years ago and then I started a new one seven years ago on the back of that one when I was already well known in the space. I am the last person you should ask for advice on how to launch when you don't have that done. But you're right.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
If somebody goes, hey, I'm getting this many downloads and I'm wondering how you do X, Y, Z, then I, yeah, I understand that there's not many people that can do that here. Here's a hack and feel free to take it. What I do now is I offer consulting to anyone who asks and that money goes to charity. So what happens is you have to put down your $1,000 an hour. Yeah, you have to pay me $1,000 an hour.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
However, That money's not going to me. So I'm not a selfish jerk for asking you for $1,000 an hour. That money is going to go build a school in freaking Africa or whatever I choose to do with the cash. You cannot write it off though. It's going to me. I'm using it for what I want later on. It's charitable, but I'm using it for the charity that I want.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
So then when my friend says, hey, can you buy a table at the charity gala for children with leukemia? I go, here's $8,000 and I don't have to think about it because I earned that money consulting. What this does is everybody who is like, your value is zero, but I'm going to ask you anyway and I'm probably never going to take your advice, that person is never going to pay you $1,000 an hour.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
And if they do, you've wasted your time, but at least you made $1,000 an hour. They're never going to do it. I likewise will do any podcast that anybody asks me to do. I won't evaluate if it's big or small. I just say, here is the charity honorarium that I require. If you pay me this, I will go on your show.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
I don't care if it's the first episode and you never air it because you have paid for my time. And I donate that money to charity. That's really good. It's a bar that you can cross with money. That's a really easy thing. I don't have to spend any time evaluating this.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
My job is to go play racquetball or squash with clients that are people that might become clients, cycle with those people, do jujitsu with those people, play golf with those people, go on fancy dinners with those people. And he's like, Then I bring in business and he goes, candidly, if I build 2,000 hours a year, which is a ton, that's not every hour you work.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
Yeah, fine.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
Good thing you saved the email. Yeah. Yeah. So that's a great bar as well. And I totally agree with that. I used to do that same thing. Now I'm like, there'll be people who pay for consulting time and I'm shocked when they use the advice that I give them. I'm impressed, I should say, but I'm very surprised. There's other people who pay for consulting time and never use it.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
But again, I don't have to worry about that. Now I can ask anybody for that. I can help anybody that I want because if it's that important, well, they know how to make it happen. But again, you don't feel like a jerk because you're not just using the money to like buy a new iPad or whatever.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
And it's just like- Wait, synced with text.com, what's this? Oh, texts.com?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
No, I need that.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
I need this. So good.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
Yeah, please, because I've never heard of this. That's amazing. I have 18 inboxes.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
So basically nobody has my number. Well, you have my number. But basically nobody has my number. They have my wife's number, which is a little bit weird now that I say it out loud. But she works with me and she screens a lot of this stuff and helps keep it private. Honestly, I dedicate about 40 minutes per day to communicating just with show fans.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
So that's email, Instagram, DMs, LinkedIn messaging. And I just do that myself. And then when that timer is up, I am done. And it depends. If I'm slow, I'll often just use this counter app on my phone that's like a ticker. And I'll go, all right, I'm going to do 20 LinkedIn messages each day. And once I hit 20, I don't care if there's 100 more in there. I'm doing 20 a day.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
And I do 30 fan mail messages. And I take those down. And there's 200 in there that are for later. I'm a month and a half behind on fan mail. Oh, well, most people ignore their fan mail anyway, so people can wait a month. That's just how it works. But I'm getting back to them in a systemized way.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
Sometimes if I'm just like bored to tears in an airplane lounge and the book I'm reading is not doing it for me, I'll be like, you know, I got to burn off some nervous energy and I'll just plow through like 80 fan mail messages and it feels good and it gets done. I realize I'm never going to chip this Mount Everest down to zero because it's always refilling.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
Like you're just bailing buckets of water out, but it's not hopeless either because it's enjoyable. So if you give yourself a finite goal, then it's fine because you're getting back to people in a systematic way. It's not just building up and building anxiety. I don't know about you. Did you get anxiety? You're like, I've got 75 unreads now. This is making me feel awful.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
I just go, it doesn't matter how many are in there, a thousand or a hundred or 10. They get chipped away this much every single day.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
That's just like billable hours to clients. You're working 4,000 hours to get that done, which is a ton. You get a bonus of, I can't remember, it was like X percent. If you bring in a new client, you get a percentage of the total billing. And it might only be 5%, but what if you bring in a $2 million client? So you bring in a couple of those or $10 million client or $20 million.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
Yeah, I'm not always on my phone, no. But like most people in our line of work probably do. I silence my phone. And then at the end of the day, when my kids are coming, my wife goes, I'm going to pick up the kids from school. And that's like 5.30 or something like that.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
I go, okay, I wrap up whatever I'm doing on the computer and I go to my phone and unleash the beast, unleash the torrent of incoming texts and stuff that was silenced all day. And I just reply to everyone. It doesn't take that long. I don't have that many people that like me, Ali. Fair play.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
Yeah, abrupt, man. What happened was I, in law school, started the podcast. When I got to New York, I kept doing the podcast and a friend of mine was supposed to go and do a guest spot on Sirius XM Satellite Radio, but he was driving in from Virginia and he's like, I can't make it. It's the traffic. Something happened. It's going to be like five hours and I need to be there in three.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
So he called the show that he was supposed to be on and said, I can't make it. You should interview these guys. They're really good. And they were like, well, we're screwed. We don't have a guest. So they invited us to go to Times Square. I did a guest appearance on that show. The station manager happened to be air checking the show, which means listening at the time.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
This is why I say a lot of stuff comes down to luck. He was really blown away by the novel things that we like of what we're talking about now, which- 15 years ago were quite, or more than that, almost 20 years ago were novel concepts. And he's like, that was so interesting. And I said, I have this crappy podcast. Do you know what a podcast is? He's like, actually, I've heard of those.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
So I gave him a cheapo business card that I probably printed up on an inkjet. And I said, here's our show, check it out. And I followed up like 4 billion times because he was terrible with email. He was actually vision impaired, which is why he wasn't created email, but I didn't have his phone number. So finally he got back to me and he's like, I checked out your show.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
We're building new talent for the network. Do you want to have your own radio show on satellite? And I was like, yeah, that sounds amazing. He's like, the pay is garbage and a time slot is going to be, you know, not prime time. So I ended up doing a satellite radio show. So I was moonlighting with law and radio. That was when it was like, One of these things is really lighting me up.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
And the other thing is sort of drudgery and scary and not interesting. So when the economy tanked into that, well, it was before the economy tanked, when the banks started to close, those were major clients of the law firm that I worked at. And they said, so there's not going to be any work for a while. It's February by May. Well, all this will be fine and we'll be back to business as usual.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
That obviously didn't happen. More banks started to close. And then they said, hey, everyone, we hired 63 of you. we're probably going to have to let go of most of you. Does anybody want to go? We'll give you the rest of the year. So like nine months at that point, full salary and benefits, but you're going to have to find another job. And before they even finished that sentence, my hand was up.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
And meanwhile, my friends were like crying, right? They were like, Oh my God, my life is over. And I was like, nine months salary and benefits. Holy smokes. Where do I sign? Can I get it today? And they were like, yeah, you don't even have to come back. And I was like, this is absolutely amazing. They're like, you can use the office for anything you want for your job hunt.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
You can use your computer. You can use the printers, the copy machines. So I was like, so let me get this straight. I've got an office in world financial number two that I can do anything I want with. And you're going to give me like a hundred thousand dollars for doing jack shit. And I have health insurance, which is like, you know, in America, you kind of need that.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
So you bring in a couple of those, your compensation is massive. So he was just focused on that. And a lot of the guys that were like workhorse lawyers who would keep their heads down all the time, they made bonus and they were in the office on Sundays and Dave was never in the office and he made more money than those guys. So I was like, whoa, I've accidentally stumbled onto the cheat code.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
And I thought, no way is it going to take me nine whole months to get my show and business off the ground. By the way, that was delusional. But it took me like years plus that nine months. But whatever. I lived like a college student. So I used that money. I paid off my student loans, which... having no debt equals freedom, especially in the United States.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
And I just lived frugally and I took that savings and I just dripped that for years and years and years. It was abrupt and it was, was it traumatizing? No. For other people, it was. And it was all because I had something that I was running to, even though I had gotten my butt kicked right on the way. Like, don't let the door hit you in the ass. But also, here's 100 grand. Can't really beat that.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
So it was an abrupt transition. And it could have been traumatizing. But since I had this iron in the fire of something that I really loved, I was excited about it.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
Yeah, I do.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
This is going to sound remarkably... simplistic, but I follow my own interests. Let me qualify that. When I see YouTubers, and you know way more about this than I do, when I see YouTubers, I've got a few friends who are big YouTubers like yourself, they'll tell me things like, I have to talk about this because this is what gets views. And At first, they didn't mind that.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
I've got a friend who's a great journalist and he started a channel and he's really good at what he does. And then he did a video about, I think, Scientology and it got a lot of views. And then he did another video about Scientology and it got a lot of views. And then he did a video about Tom Cruise and Scientology and it got a lot of views. Then he did a video about something else and it was dead.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
And he went, oh, I need to do videos about Scientology. But I really am getting sick of this topic. Maybe I'll do a video about other celebrity-related stuff. So he was like, well, I'm British. Let me talk about Harry and Meghan. And it got a lot of views. So he did another one about Harry and Meghan, and he got a lot of views. And I remember the text where he goes, I –
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
I absolutely want to ram my head through the wall knowing I have to do another video about Harry and Meghan. And he goes, but I'm also making like 10 times more money than I was doing this other thing that I really enjoyed. So with podcasting, there is no algorithm that you have to please. So I'll do a show with a guy who steals tanker ships back from dictators that commandeer the ship in a port.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
And then the next episode is an episode with Ray Dalio about investing. And then the next episode is a dissident from China. And then the next episode is a celebrity that I'm interested in or a creator that I'm interested in. And since it's a podcast, an audio podcast primarily, people just see it in their feed and they download it and they listen. YouTube...
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
They don't even see that crap if they haven't clicked on the last one, right? So like my most popular video is a guy named Mossab Hassan Youssef, who actually Cesar Millan, the dog whisperer is the most popular, but Mossab is anti-Hamas. His father was one of the founders of Hamas and he speaks out against Hamas. That video got like 1.5 million views.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
The next podcast I did was with an Israeli who is anti-Zionist. That did really well on my podcast feed. Guess how it did on YouTube? Not so good because I had this massively like Zionist audience listening to the anti-Hamas guy and the guy who was like pro-Palestine. Well, that didn't jibe well with the last viewers of the last video. So it was my most disliked video. My YouTube team goes, wow.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
I've actually never seen this ratio of dislikes this quick. And they were like, I guess because you can't do this and then run it into this next thing. With podcasting, I was getting emails like, so interesting how you had the anti-hemless guy and then you had the pro guy right one after the other. What a cool variety of viewpoints. Really interesting dichotomy. On YouTube, it was just like,
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
And I thought, why doesn't every lawyer do this? And I started asking the other partners and they were like, man, you know, some people are relationship people and other people aren't. And I thought, that's definitely not really true.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
The algorithm just went, I don't know what to do with you. You're not going to create something that I understand, go into the closet and never be seen or heard from again. It's very frustrating. You have to create for this invisible God, the algorithm. And if you do it wrong, you're screwed.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
So I only follow my curiosity and I don't worry about the dollars at all. But this is a privileged position to be in because if you have a small podcast and you follow your curiosity, you better hope other people are curious about the same things. If you have a big podcast, then you can be rest assured that a decent sized percentage of your audience is also curious enough about that same thing. Or
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
you've built enough trust with them that they will indulge you on something that looks like they might not be interested in it. And I get emails to that effect all the time. Jordan, I did not think that ship guy was going to be interesting.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
I did not think that that such and such guy was going to be interesting, but you've surprised me over and over throughout the years I've been listening to your show. And oh my God, that guy was so interesting. YouTube, you don't get that luxury at all. Most of the time, anyway, at least in my experience. Again, you know, way more about this.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
And my sponsors don't get to choose what kind of episode they go in either. So I don't have to worry. Podcasting discoverability is hot garbage, right? If you have a new show, like no one's going to surface it unless you sign up with Spotify and they like you and they put you in everybody's device. You're screwed otherwise.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
That's also a blessing because what it means is there's no algorithm to favor you or disfavor you. So you can create whatever you want. And if your listeners listen to it, you make a living. And if they don't, they don't. On YouTube, I thought naively, oh, they subscribe. So they'll see all my stuff. That's maybe how it worked like 10 years ago. But now if they don't engage, it's over.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
They just didn't want to do it because it was kind of scary or they weren't that great socially or they found that keeping their head down and being a workhorse was easier. But I think that's because overachievers who go to law school are naturally disciplined, heads down kind of people. So if you get out of that situation and you can be a salesman also, you just have disproportionate rewards.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
So you end up making Harry and Megan videos and hating your job. You're about to hear a preview of The Jordan Harbinger Show with a top sleep expert about why we dream, what happens when we sleep and why chronic lack of sleep and driving while tired is more dangerous than driving under the influence of alcohol.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
For more on sleep, including why we dream and how we can increase the quality of our sleep, check out episode 126 with Dr. Matthew Walker on The Jordan Harbinger Show. All right, that's the end of part one. Part two coming in just a few days if it's not already out yet. Everything we mentioned that's linkable will be linked in the show notes over at jordanharbinger.com.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
Advertisers, deals, discounts, and ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Also, our newsletter, we call it We Bit Wiser. The idea is every Wednesday, we give you something specific and practical that'll have an immediate impact on your decisions and your psychology, your relationships in under two minutes.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
It's not a long read. And if you haven't signed up yet, I invite you to come check it out. It is a great companion to the show. JordanHarbinger.com slash news is where you can find it. Don't forget about Six Minute Networking as well over at SixMinuteNetworking.com. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogerty, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for the show is you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting. The greatest compliment you can give us is to share the show with those you care about. So if you know somebody
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
who's interested in balancing a little bit of their lifestyle with their money and figuring out how to be happy instead of just grinding all the time, definitely share this episode with them. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time. This episode is sponsored in part by What Was That Like podcast.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
But if you just stay in your habit of grinding all the time, you end up a workhorse lawyer. Nothing wrong with that. However, in 2008, when the economic downturn hits, everybody gets forced out of this firm. The firm closes, 140-year-old law firm closes. Dave goes to another law firm because he's got all the clients. He's got a whole book of business. They hire him right away.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
Have you ever wondered how it feels to watch your house burn down, be attacked by an alligator, or learn that your spouse hired someone to kill you? What Was That Like is the podcast for you, if you're that person. Not the person who got hired to be killed, but the person who wondered, more thankfully. Real people come on every episode to explain the unbelievable situations they've been through.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
I think it's a funny concept for a show. I kind of wish I thought of it because I always get crazy stories from people. Not everything turns into a Jordan Harbinger episode. But What Was That Like? is hosted by my friend Scott Johnson, who's naturally curious and gives his guests the opportunity to share how they've really felt during some of their most surreal experiences.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
What they did in the morning before an earthquake, what song was playing as a gunman entered, was their stomach growling as they hid? Guests share everything they remember about their crazy, crazy experiences.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
So if you want to hear some disturbing slash inspiring firsthand stories about the thoughts that go through your head while surviving a kidnapping or winning the Price is Right, What Was That Like? is the podcast you've been looking for. Every story is thoroughly researched and fact-checked so you know even the most unreal stories are actually someone's reality. Listen to What Was That Like?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
wherever you get your podcasts.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
Maybe the dude even got a raise. The other workhorse lawyers, Nobody really wants those guys. There's no work anymore in real estate finance at that point in time. They worked for a firm that's no longer around. Every other partner views them as competition because they essentially are, except for Dave who brings in more business. So
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
I thought, okay, not only is this true inside the legal realm, this relationship thing is like an insurance policy. So I tripled down on that right away.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On the Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
I agree with that 100%. I mean, you and I are in a slightly different kind of field, right, because we're creating things, so you can probably stretch to that if you think about it, but a lot of CEO-type people are great at making decisions and they're managing people and they have great ideas. We have to kind of do some of that, but also I can never, at least me, I can never run my business.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
I can't automate myself or do it because I'm having conversations. It's a podcast, right? You can't automate like this part of your business. It's not possible yet. And so I do agree though. I think school clearly has failed most of us in that way, especially in the United States.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
I don't know if you know this, but school in the United States is generally, it was designed for like an agricultural revolution back in the day. And now it's industrial revolution where it's like the bell rings. It's sort of factory assembly line. Everybody do the same thing. Lowest common denominator is where the work line is.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
So if you're intelligent and you're in a public school or a regular school in the United States, it's very hard for teachers to serve you. Because they have to catch everyone. And that is a terrible way to create innovative thinkers, for example.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
That is definitely the same in the United States. You'll get somebody who, I remember taking a math class. I'm not good at math. I'm never going to be good at math and I don't care, but thank God now. But in college, I took calculus and the person who taught calculus was a German guy with a really strong accent. Nobody knew what was going on.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker through long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, and performers, even the occasional neuroscientist, four-star general, or music mogul. If you're new to the show or you want to tell your friends about the show, and I always appreciate it when you do that,
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
There were kids that were so good at it, they could just do these crazy math problems in their head and they were like, this is so stupid and easy. Then there were people like me who are like, I don't get it. And you'd go talk to that teacher and he would just be like, it's so hard for me to explain this. I'm like, it's literally your job to explain this, man.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
I'm like, try it in German because I spent an exchange year in Germany. So I'm having this guy tell me in German and he's like, oh, I'm so glad I can tell you this in German. And I'm thinking, holy crap, the requirement to understand the teacher is knowledge of a foreign language. This is the University of Michigan, man. I should be able to take this class and understand it.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
And he's like, he was very candid because he was German. He's like, look, I'm here because I'm doing research with this well-known professor. They're making me do this. It sucks. And I thought, really glad I'm paying $40,000 a year to learn from somebody who resents the fact that they even have to teach.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
Yeah, I can. So imposter syndrome is essentially thinking I'm a fraud. Everybody else is better than me who's around me at this particular time. So low performers or average people, like if you talk about this concept at a high school, they won't know what you are talking about because teenagers are young and they haven't really hit this yet. And also it's just a high school.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
So they're like, whatever, I don't have this problem. When you go to a place like Harvard or Apple or an Ivy League school or an advanced law school or a medical school, when they do sort of hand-raised polls, how many of you think, I don't belong here, maybe, it's only a matter of time until somebody finds me out? You'll see like 95% of the hands go up. How can that be true?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
How can 95% of these people think there was a mistake made in the admission of this person? And it's because a lot of high performers, they're grinding really hard. They feel people breathing on their heels right behind them at all times. They've always been that way. That's why they have excelled. That's why they were the valedictorian of their high school, right?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
They just felt someone's right behind me. The truth is maybe there was one person right behind them and everybody else was not paying attention or was way behind them and couldn't even see them at that point. But these people always feel a fire lit under their butt. So when they all get into one room, they're like, oh crap, everybody is intelligent and hardworking. I'm not special anymore.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
And that heat is hot. That's hot. That is really hot. So then you're looking around and you're like, oh, I thought I was kind of hot-ish because I was valedictorian and president of this and the chess club and on the football team.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
I suggest our episode starter packs. These are collections of our favorite episodes on topics like persuasion and negotiation, psychology and geopolitics, disinformation, China, North Korea, crime and cults, and more. They'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit jordanharbinger.com slash start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
Then you get there and someone's like, I was all that and I speak five languages and my dad was a diplomat and I spent years in various countries and I also founded this organization. And you're just like, oh crap, I'm a big fat nobody. So you have that imposter syndrome.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
And of course, that guy who grew up all around the world speaking five languages and yada yada, somebody else next to him, they're a child star from a television show. So they're like, oh, look at them. They were on Full House, you know, or whatever. So everyone feels that weird sense of lacking.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
And it's unhealthy because what it does is it can cause some people to check out and put so much pressure on themselves that they become depressed. The problem is you don't really outgrow it. Let's say you feel that in medical school. Well, when you get to the hospital, then what? Oh, that doctor has a decade of experience. This person's been here longer.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
Wow, this person has so many other advantages over me. I don't know much about the medical industry, but in law, it's just like that too. You feel like, oh, finally, I got through law school. You get hired at a firm that takes the top 10% of law schools. Great, now I'm at the bottom again, right? So it's just never ending.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
And you end up feeling that imposter syndrome for years and years and years and years. It's just, you're basically your own worst critic.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
Yeah, what do you do about it? The first step is always awareness, right? Okay, everybody feels this way. And if they say they don't, there's a really statistically good chance that they're lying about that. And if you drink enough whiskey with enough lawyers, you'll find out that everybody kind of thought, holy crap, I didn't even think I was going to pass the bar exam.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
How did I get hired here, right? It's only a matter of time. And everyone has that. So when you realize that that's a universal feeling, it makes it a hell of a lot easier. And as you gain experience and you realize that everybody is winging it and you start to specialize in your area, it starts to go away gradually as you build professional competency in whatever you are doing.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
I wouldn't say it goes away entirely for a lot of people. I mean, I'm 44. That ship sailed a long time ago for me. However... I've been in podcasting for 17 years. A lot of people, it's new, right? And they'll go, oh, I'm never gonna be able to do this. And I'm like, I remember thinking that exact same thing.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
So as you build real skills and you get actual real life feedback on something, you realize you're not faking it, right? If you're a doctor for a decade and people are like, you saved my son's life, eventually you start to think, maybe I do know what I'm doing. I did take out that kidney and that person survived. You know, there's a lot of objective feedback that says you're doing it right.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
But it takes a long time.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
Today, actually another interview with me from my friend Ali Abdaal. This was quite involved. A lot of you, I wasn't originally going to air this in the feed because I didn't even think about it, but a bunch of you saw this on YouTube and then said, hey, this is so good. How come you don't share this on your own podcast? So here we are.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
He's done. He's cooked. Yeah. That comparison is also that sort of pure fuel on the fire for imposter syndrome. The comparison thing almost never ends. However, once you start gaining professional competency in something, you start comparing yourself a little bit more fairly, unless, of course, this has just gone wild in your head, in which case it's helpful to literally talk to a therapist.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
But the comparison is so much easier now, especially when there are metrics like you can look at someone's engagement or YouTube subscribers and you can go, objectively, that person's doing better than me. in that particular area. But you don't really know what's going on in their life. I do this with podcasts. I still do it with podcasting. I'll go, man, how does that person have so many reviews?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1095: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part One
Maybe I'm not getting it. Oh, does that mean my engagement is lower? How is that person's engagement so high? Let me figure out what they're doing. And Sometimes they're doing something really cool and innovative, like asking for reviews in a certain way, or their social media is really taking off.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
Um, once I got into med school, then she really wanted me to be a doctor.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
I don't know. So having a healthy detachment from outcomes, I guess.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
Which is, I guess, similar to a lot of other areas of life as well.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
How do you approach balancing the kids thing with the career stuff?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
For friends that you have who have well-adjusted teenagers, what are the patterns you see in those sorts of families?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
How are you thinking about not spoiling your kids?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
What do you wish you'd known before you had kids, if anything?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
It's like, you know, it's just, it's like, oh, that wasn't really like you said it, but you didn't, I didn't get it. I didn't really sink in.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
So if someone had been able to help it sink in, would that have changed anything?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
Okay, interesting. I've met a lot of people who are in their 40s and don't have kids who regret the fact that they didn't take dating seriously when they were like in their late 20s or early 30s. Sure. Really wish that they had found someone. And they were quite career-y when they were in their 30s. And now look at that and think, ah, I'm now still career-y when I'm in my 40s.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
And it's now sort of lost some of the charm that it once had. Yeah. That sort of thing. Which to me feels like a sort of regret for not having had kids earlier.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
How long have you been married for now?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
And how long were you together pre-marriage?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
Oh, okay. So 10 years relationship.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
Any tips for healthy, happy, long lasting relationship? Anything you wish you'd known?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
Nice. Yeah, with my partner, we found that she wanted to go on vacations and stuff. And I was like, sure. And then none of us sat down with a calendar to block the time out. And then six months later, it's like my calendar is blocked out because work will always fill stuff and there's always things going on. Yes. And she's like, so when are we going on that vacation?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
And I was like, oh, we didn't block it out in the calendar. So now we have calendar blocking sessions where we like look at the spreadsheet and we're like, okay, what's the plan? Yeah.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
That kind of thing.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
Yeah.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
To what extent do you bring the wife along on business trips? Or like, how do you guys think about business travel and personal travel as like a thing?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
So I have this scary thing in the back of my mind of like, what if I run out of money?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
What are the ways you've found, you mentioned the nanny, what other ways are there where having money gives you happiness when it comes to kids?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
We kind of touched on this a little bit, but what are the patterns you see amongst people you know who are rich and happy versus rich and unhappy?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
Okay, nice. That's a good action point. I'm going to do this, figure out how to set up this charity consulting situation and also the whole running the numbers thing. Okay, but running the numbers is one part of the equation.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
You're also living in California and the sorts of people you hang out with may well be the sorts of tech multi-decker millionaire type people and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. How do you prevent lifestyle creep and mimetic desire from thinking that you need a Lamborghini, whatever the fuck it's called, or this sort of stuff?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
To what extent have you seen this as a pattern? A bunch of friends I've spoken to are in a position where only one of the two is working because they're like entrepreneurs or they're rich or something like that. And I also have friends where both of the pairs are working and they seem way more stressed than the pairs where one of the parents is working.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
Does that hold true for the pattern you've seen as well?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
Yeah, I think that would be interesting. A lot of the reason for going after entrepreneurship or financial freedom and stuff is back when I read The 4-Hour Workweek, it was my motivation when I was in like med school and beyond was, okay, cool, I'm optimizing for freedom so that I don't have to do things I don't want to do.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
But increasingly, I'm realizing that like, you know, I know I want to have kids fairly soon, hopefully. And I know that actually the thing I'm optimizing for is the ability to, that's what the freedom buys you.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
The freedom buys you the ability to hang out with the kids when they're young, for example, or take vacations with the kids or whatever, hire help so that like both parents are not completely stressed or things like that, that are not sexy sounding.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
And there are not like the, you know, work on your laptop on the beach kind of digital nomad dream, but the ability to buy that freedom to then invest it in a family. Yes. That to me feels like part of the point.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
Yeah, when they're 68 or whatever.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
That's okay. And if I do write this book, I'm going to leave them with this. And it's like this tiny little like weird shift. And you're like, okay, this minus this is this.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
One of the things I've been thinking about is, you know, I'm thinking about like leaving the UK and where we want to live long term. And I think one of the major considerations is actually in a low cost of living place. Because having a low cost of living means you have to work fewer hours to get exactly the same lifestyle. And right now I'm in a stage where like, I don't mind working.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
I enjoy work. Work is fun. Every single parent I've ever spoken to has said as soon as they had kids, when the kids were little, suddenly they wanted to hang out more with the kids. So I'm like, okay, cool. If I take a reasonable bet that I'm probably going to end up like that. I can't imagine it right now, but something shifts when you have kids apparently. So I was like, all right, cool.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
It's a low cost of living place. So rather than living in bang in the middle of fricking central London, actually living in a random place that was maybe three hours away from London or not living in the UK at all or whatever the thing might be, seems to also be sort of in a weird Tim Ferriss sort of geo-arbitrage type way, another way of buying back your time.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
Nice. Cool. Final question. I've just turned 30. Anything you wish you'd known when you turned 30 that you could share with me? Any snippets of life advice?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
Yeah, nice. That's a good idea. Yeah.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
Yeah.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
I think that's a great place to end this. It is. Thank you very much, Jordan.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
Nice. Good set.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
Yeah. One of the nice things about having this podcast and interviewing people and now increasingly hanging out with people who are very rich is that I can start to kind of notice the desires within myself and try and like actively counteract them. A question I often ask myself is if I woke up with a hundred million in the bank, what would change about my calendar? Yeah.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
And usually my answer is not very much. And if major things would change about my calendar, I'm like, okay, well, let's change those things before I have a hundred million. Because a hundred percent, why not?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
Yeah, it comes down to that. I had a great convo with a guy at a birthday party that I was at a few weeks ago where he was like, he'd followed my channel for a while and he was asking me, how do I become financially free? And I started off with like, with this why question, like, what does financial freedom get you? Firstly, what's the number?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
For him, it was like, oh man, if I could have an extra million in the bank in the next 10 years, I'd feel really financially free. I was like, okay, but like, what would that get you that you don't already have? Because he's married, he's got kids, has a job that he more or less enjoys. He's a teacher. So he has like summers off and like loads of holidays and stuff.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
What does financial freedom get you? In his case, it was like ability to quit the job because he doesn't enjoy it all the time. Ability to like get a housekeeper or a cleaner or something, which he could probably afford anyway. For sure. And it was like, I think a lot of people have this thing of when I get rich, then dot, dot, dot. Yes. But if you speak to people who are already there, it's like,
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
I just think with any goal that we have, implicit or explicit, it's worth speaking to the people who are already there and seeing like when I would speak to doctors who were 15 years ahead in their career, I would ask them about their life and almost run a mini podcast interview with them over coffee or something. And I'd find out so much stuff.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
I would just be like, okay, I can avoid all these traps. They all wish they'd spent more time going through training because they wish they hadn't rushed to be a consultant. They wish they'd taken more time off. They wish they'd done part-time training. Huh. Okay.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
So you live in California where the taxes are really high. You have two kids. One thing I often worry about is like, well, I'm popular on YouTube right now. Who knows how long this fame will last? Surely I should be trying to make Hey While the Sun Shines.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
That's useful to know rather than just sort of going fully on this path with, with any goals, whether it's a money goal or a career goal or anything.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
I've been noticing this in my life on two specific instances. Number one is I bought a PS5 a few months ago because I was like, you know what? I can afford a PlayStation 5 at this point. Let me buy a games console. Like two days ago, it was like a Sunday and I had nothing to do all day other than I should probably write my email newsletter which I write on a Sunday. Cool, whatevs.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
And initially my thought was like, okay, there's all this work I can do. I can, you know, I'm giving this talk at AdCon and I can prepare that. And I was like, well, why? I mean, I could just do that during the week. I've got enough time during the week. What if I just played PlayStation? I'm like, yeah, but there's all this work to do. I'm like, yeah, but what's the point of the work?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
Is the point of the work not that I can feel sufficiently safe so that I can in fact play PlayStation on the fucking weekend? I was like, I could just play PlayStation right now. So I spent the whole day kind of like, I went to a cafe for breakfast, went for a walk around the park, sat down, played PlayStation, went to another cafe for lunch, sat down, played PlayStation. It was so glorious.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
Yeah. Come on. The other one is like often I should send my email newsletter on a Sunday night or on a Sunday because I called it Sunday snippets like six years ago. And it gets to a Sunday night at like 10 p.m. And I'm like, well, I haven't finished the newsletter. I could just send it tomorrow. That's right. And no one will care. That's right.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
And a few years from now, yeah, maybe I should just make videos about passive income ideas or some shit like that, that will get the views and will have high CPMs and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
Yeah.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
And it's like, well, it gets to 10 p.m. Will I be more grateful that I've had a better night's sleep or will I be more grateful that I sent my new fucking newsletter at 24 hours early? Yeah. No one cares. Yeah.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
Yeah, someday snippets is what the team calls it because sometimes they get sent on a Thursday. I'm like, well, you know, at this point in my life, I'm going to prioritize. Oh, they call it someday snippets?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
At this point in my life, I'm going to choose to deprioritize consistency. for the sake of like more important things.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
The only complaint I get is like, for the last six years, I've been signing it off with my name and then two kisses, like XX, just like casually.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
And like twice, I forgot to do that. And people replied being like, oh, you know, it was kind of weird, but like, I really missed those kisses that you put on the end of your email. I was like, oh, that's cute.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
That's cute. So you've got kids now.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
Any tips?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1096: Ali Abdaal | The Hidden Economics of Creative Success Part Two
Because what if when I have kids and maybe, I don't know, they need to go to private school because the state schools in the area are a bit shit or whatever, then will I regret my past self for not having chased the money? Any advice? Yeah, sure.