Debra Jo Rupp

His ugly mug.

Yes.

Because the first one is young William out in the streets, he sees people using... He thinks of the guy's face, he sees his face, he turns away and goes another. A different direction. A different direction. Then we flash forward to older William getting his cancer diagnosis and sort of struggling with the idea of what is it that I have to live for, right? And you see him see his face again,

But then the next thing you know, you see him pulling out some drugs and needles to use, right? And he's pulling it out to use and he's about to shoot up. And then he gets a knock on the door and he goes to, he cleans up the needles, puts them away. He goes down to the door and he sees Randall. Laying into him from our pilot episode of the show.

Brilliant.

That show was pretty good.

It was depth.

Oh, yeah, yeah. Because there's one more scene with both judges. That's right.

Together. And what, hold on. You said, you do anything good today? Yeah, I don't know.

Time will tell. We'll be right back with more That Was Us.

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It means less of figuring out where things went or why family members are running late and more having the peace of mind to enjoy the holidays and maybe, just maybe have a little eggnog too.

They demand juice boxes. How were these young babies? How many did you have to work with as well?

Fourth largest city in North America.

Yeah. Right behind Chicago.

Listen, we're big fans of Airbnb at That Was Us, and we've shared so many stories about wonderful trips we've taken and memorable stays that Airbnb helped to create. We'd also like to thank each and every person who thought, hey, you know who'd like to stay here? Sterling Brown would. And hosted their home on Airbnb. I personally say, namaste, gracias.

So that takes care of that timeline. What are we going to do next?

Let's do Randall.

He has to take Deja to go visit her mother. Court ordered visit. Court ordered visit in jail. And he's having a judgment about it. Like, you know, how dare this woman, you know, drive her daughter around with an unregistered gun? Like, that's the most irresponsible thing. And Beth's like, well, you know, you don't know. I was like, no, I don't know if I have any patience for this at all.

Like, I'm going to do this because I'm supposed to do it, but I don't really want to be there.

Come on.

Like, we're all... The way that we so snap judge folks as human beings. Yeah. Because it's easy to be able to put somebody in a box and then you just sort of like don't have to deal with them anymore. Sure. Right. And the show is always challenging us like, hey, just be careful of these boxes that you throw people into arbitrarily. Right. Black, white, whatever. Anybody is capable of doing it.

Right? So we go to prison and whatnot. I got to say, I remember working with Lyric on this, the young Deja, and she's a very serious-minded young lady. Yeah. So I'm always trying to do things to try to get her to laugh. Most of my scenes with Lyric are like, can I get her to smile?

So we go to prison and it's a real defunct prison. And it's always sort of an interesting thing when you do, have you guys done the real defunct prison thing? And it's like, Oh, I don't want to be here.

Energetically, it's like, no, I don't like these places. This don't feel good. So we go. Randall has this moment where he shields her eyes because he doesn't want her to see handcuffs. And she's like, I haven't seen handcuffs before. And he's like, I've seen handcuffs, too. And she's like, on TV or real life? I'm like, come on, man. Like, real life. And he's like, it's TV. On TV. Right?

We go in there, uh, Deborah Jo Rupp, our social worker is telling us good news. You don't have to be between a partition today. You actually get a chance to hug your mom. Right. She's so excited. So looking forward to seeing her mom. We go inside, we're waiting. I'm talking about her hair again, just trying to be silly, get her to laugh or whatnot. Enjoy yourself.

Deborah Jo comes up and she says, you know, something happened. She doesn't want to see. Yeah.

I was like, I didn't know she could opt out. Like she said, yeah, you know, it's court order, but she has the option of not, you know, coming. And I sort of like say something, I was like, man, who's looking out for this kid, man? Like, this is some bull. Like we, she went through all of this stuff to be here, to see her.

I'm like, and it's sort of like indicting her as well as like, you guys, somebody has to be caring for this child. And she's like, look, bro, you coming after me? And this is, this is shout out to all social workers. Unquestionably. They're saints. The things that they see.

It is incredible because there's a very high turnover in social work. It's a matter of like two, three years sometimes.

Understandably.

And she basically reads him, like, look, before you tell me if I'm looking out for somebody or whatnot, I learned sign language for people who have, like, eardrums laid out so I can tell them things. Like, I know how to say it. We haven't found parents for you yet. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And then Randall sort of, like, says, my bad.

Goes back, tells Deja something happened. There was a confusion. He made up a story. Folks, yeah, he makes up a story, confusion. She said, well, can I get my purse? I brought some money. I've been saving my allowance so my mom can get all the stuff that she wants in here. So he's like, okay.

So they leave and you see a delightful flip of R&B where Beth is, you know, at the time, like, this is ridiculous that this woman put her through this. I love it when they flip. I love it when, I was like, wait, I thought I was gonna be the bad one. Happens once in a while on the show. And she's like, no, it's me right now.

It happens for Ryan and I every once in a while, too. It's like, Ryan's like, I don't like it when you get mad, Sterling. He's like, you stay calm. Yeah. Ooh, I want to see Sterling mad. I don't get mad often. And my kids will say the same thing. Like, Dad doesn't get upset often. He's like, when Dad does.

That's the point.

Didn't require a lot of acting.

Absolutely. So then we get home, we have that scene with R&B, and then Randall goes back to visit Shawna himself.

And we see that Shawna actually got jumped, faces sort of black and blue, beat up, says, I didn't want my daughter to see me like this. And they sort of have this conversation about who's best for Deja, what not. Randall says something like, well, I'm on this side of the glass. And again, she's like, you think you know my story. Like, you know, I was trying to get myself right.

And then comes Lonzo. I'm carrying his gun for him, sort of try to keep him, you know, something from happening to him. And I just got caught at the wrong time with somebody else's stuff, right? And the interesting thing about it is that Randall then has a moment of realization after recognizing that he was very judgmental and assumed that he knew who this woman was. People did that to my dad.

He's like, I thought about William. He's talking to Beth at the end of the episode.

And he has this monologue where he's saying, you know what? I think about my dad and where he was in life before I showed up, et cetera. And just the idea that people would have seen him a particular way. And he didn't get a chance to be a part of my life, possibly because of perception or what have you. we could be guilty of doing the same thing. And she asked to talk to Deja.

I gave her our number, told her to call collect. She's gonna call tonight. And Beth's like, all right. And you see Deja on the phone at the end of the episode, smiling, giggling, talking to her mom. Okay. That's where that one ends and it'll build into stuff as we move forward.

You know what, Chris, like to that point, like even just where we are in the world right now, it is so, and I will, I do not exclude myself from this, When I hear people espouse things that are contrary to how I see the world, the tendency and desire to vilify an individual is very strong. Instantaneous.

I'm with you, I'm with you. And to try to hold the space to recognize that my perspective is a perspective and not the perspective is something that you have to constantly remind yourself of.

So, okay.

Kev or Kate, what do you wanna do?

Dive, dive, go.

And he just lies.

Easy. And I was like, ah, Kev, that's not true. Like, why are you... As the addiction takes over, it becomes... More drinks, more pills, et cetera.

He's a large and powerful man.

He goes to see Katobi. Katobe sort of announced the- Oh, is that when they announced the pregnancy?

Yeah, exactly. Trying to get something from his sister and then they have the thing with the me and the me and you see- Baby, baby. Baby, baby.

He's a large and powerful man. So, okay. Well, you guys are cleaning the house at the beginning of the episode in preparation for your social worker to come.

That's later. And you see in Kev's face just sort of this recognition of happiness for them and I'm not in that place.

This isn't Ringling Brothers, bro. Like, make a decision.

So, okay, he gets all three. And then we see him, he's back on the East Coast.

At the hospital, talking to his other favorite nurse, what have you. And he goes to the bathroom and he's got pills in the bathroom. And that's when he sort of goes through this imagining of what parenthood.

I think when you're having drug-induced illusions of what the future is going to have, like painkillers, not all different drugs, but painkillers in particular, might not elicit the joyous future that you might have had in other circumstances.

Right.

And he goes on this rant and, And I don't remember everything. And an entire audience is going, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

But he says, I don't know how to be a husband to you. I don't know how to be a father to our kids. And then later he says, I'm saying when I dream of our future together, Sophie, it's a nightmare. It's a nightmare, Sophie. There's no coming back from that. He repeats nightmare twice.

Yeah, and we have a montage because we have the first time that she comes, and then she has a couple other subsequent surprise visits, I believe, right, that were not announced. Because you have one announced with, like, this kid's trying to take my nipple off, and you're like, oh, snap. Hey, yeah. You're here. I was here. Right. But she has nothing but good things to say about you guys.

Yeah, it was heartbreaking. Like in that moment I was Sophie and I was like, I can't believe this dude is saying, nightmare?

Like there's certain words. Can't unring that bell. You know what I'm saying? If I said to Ryan Michelle Bathé, I just had a dream of what our life was like together. And it's a nightmare, Ryan. A nightmare. She'd be like, well, Negro.

So that's where we leave.

Yeah. Now with Katobi.

He puts him on the spot and says, well, here you go. And you're like, oh, am I doing this? Are we doing this? We're leaving a message? Yeah. Kate, I don't know what to do.

Arlene Brown, mother to Sterling K. Brown, married twice, each time at the courthouse. Wow. She said, she's like, you know what, I'd rather spend the money on a house than spend it on these things.

Very practical sort of person, but also a bit of a stick in the mud. Because when you say, like, Mom, we're going to get married and we're going to do these things, she's like, oh, I just got married at the courthouse. And we're like, thanks, Mom, but what about this one? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

There you go. There you go. But because the guy says like, and whoosh, you're married. And like, oh, whoosh. That's the sound of getting married or whatnot. And you hear Kate go through like, you don't have to worry about father-daughter dances. And I don't have to worry about my dad taking me down. Like all the things that she's like glad about. You're like, mm. Are you really glad about that?

Me thinks the lady. Protests too much. Indeed, sir. And so you sort of pick up on it and there's this delightful scene. I wish we had him here right now. I have him in my car probably right now.

It's a formality. Everything's going to go according to plan.

You're watching something. Are you watching Judge Judy?

I don't really think this is what she wants. You know what I'm saying? She says that it is, but I know in my heart of hearts that it's not the way to go and just needed somebody to talk through. It was really adorable. I love when you guys, and I think maybe I have a couple, but are able to take these scenes when you don't have anybody else to talk to. and make it feel like a conversation.

Two kings of romantic gestures just having a conversation with each other. And then, so then you come later

Before you get to the judges, because you do say, I think we need to take new family pictures because they always have the pictures of families up. And this is my own personal anecdote to add to this.

It's such a beautiful thing because you keep unzipping them. And you can see Chrissy about to have a reaction. You're like...

Yeah.

And you decide together that like, look, I think that you say that you don't want this, but I think you walking down the aisle with your two incredibly handsome brothers and being able to celebrate it amongst friends and family is something that would be good. So you propose. Because she says before, like everything we've done has been backwards.

Like I'm the one who proposed to you when I didn't think that you could hear me, et cetera. And so like you actually take this moment to say like, no, no. Will you marry me? And she says yes. And it's really, really quite lovely, right?

So that was it. That was this episode. And we're also very excited. This episode sets up what we do for the first time and that we repeat a few times in subsequent seasons.

Yes.

So it's- And it is, I think it's a very fruitful and sort of like exciting moment for us as a show because Every once in a while you think you know what the show is, and Dan does a great job of like, the format is essentially what it is, but within that we'll every once in a while do something that's just a little bit different, right?

No, I don't know if it is or not, but I would love to speak to shooting a show and being an individual of a particular shade of soul amongst folks that have a different shade and the lighting that goes into it, there'd be times in which the two of us would have a scene and my single, I feel like the light is like blowing me out.

Just so like every time you think you know exactly how it's gonna go, we change it up. And as an actor in it was always exciting to know that we could play with form.

We're going to be right back with more of That Was Us.

I completely agree. Like if there are times in which I need to train for a film, there's these boot camps that kick my butt up and down. If I just want to relax a little bit, there's a wonderful meditation, yoga, whatever you need. Peloton has it.

Dude, I'm so glad you brought that up. Because just like Randall needed those moments of grounding during all those twists and turns, Peloton offers the flexibility to fit into any schedule, any season. Now imagine Randall squeezing in a quick yoga session to manage stress.

It's all there on Peloton, ready to adapt to whatever phase you're navigating.

Find your power with Peloton at OnePeloton.com. Ladies and gentlemen, my people, my people, the holiday season is officially here. And you know what that means? Endless parties, indulgent treats, and lots of family time. It's great, but let's be real, all that stress and cold weather can take a toll on your hair.

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Like this, I look at Mandy's light, I was like, that seems so nice and soft.

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So we were just talking about, we were shooting in season two, and the Emmys had happened, and I was blessed to have won the Emmy for season one. And the next day I had to be at the prison. to shoot our scene together at the prison. And Dan hit me up the night before and he goes, listen, you don't have to do this, but if you're interested, I think the crew would really love to see the Emmy, right?

But it's a thing, just trying to find the balance of it. And I thought it was a really kind of lovely thing that they discussed in the family pictures. Like the guy's like, oh, I'm just trying to find the right sort of balance. And Jack's like, just take it and we'll figure it out. And you see later on, Mandy will cut from one shot to take Randall from this one and fit him into that one.

So if you could bring it to work.

So bring it to work. So I brought the Emmy to work the next day and everybody was taking pictures with it and like running around with it. And Debra Jo said that she was just trying to get close to take a picture with the Emmy.

I might have totally been the person. I didn't actually get to touch it. I was excited. You just pointed to it.

It is so good to see your face.

Mandy and I were just talking about seeing you do a play by one of our writers, Becca Brunstetter. The play was called Cake. A beautiful, beautiful play.

Absolutely.

So wonderful. Thank you so much. But it was the writing. It truly... Becca is... One of my all-time favorite writers. I mean, she might be my all-time favorite writer. She writes the way people talk. Yes. And she's so bright.

Agreed. Agreed. And the question that we were asking ourselves is, was Becca the person that brought you into the show? Is that like how you got introduced to our world?

No, it was Dan. So like the group of you came.

Yeah.

And... to see Becca's work. And Dan came up and said, I'm going to find something for you on This Is Us.

He did. And then this is what it was. Wow. This is what it was. I was no one. No one usually will hire me for drama. I usually do comedy. I'm fine. I'll do anything. But it was so nice to have that opportunity. And to have it come from a play, because theater is... My love, you know, I love a live audience. So, uh, it was just really nice. And then I got to work with the Emmy award winner.

We're just talking about the scene in the prison where we find out that Shawna was not going to come see Deja, that she's opting out of that whole thing. And then Randall sort of indicts you as like, is anybody looking out for this kid? And you give me a look like, excuse me, sir? You think I don't understand what's going on here? Do you know what I have to deal with on a daily basis?

Yeah. You want to talk a little bit about how you read me for points and sort of destroyed me in my own show? Is that cool?

Yeah. I just remember I had never been in a prison or a jail. I've just never been in there. And there was... There was like a door and it was closed, but you could hear commotion behind it. Yeah. Do you remember that?

Like, we'll figure it out. Yeah. Right? Okay.

And there were inmates on the other side of that door.

And I just remember looking up and seeing things that I've seen in movies.

You know, but I was actually standing in the space and it just really, really hit me. That scene was... So easy to do because of where it was and because of Hugh Sterling. But it was really quite something.

Mandy's pretty awesome.

Mandy's awesome. Chris is awesome. Yeah, and me.

And me, Debra?

I was saying to Chris at the beginning of the podcast too, that being in that space, like I was immediately felt with like, I don't like this being here. Like this is not a place that is pleasant to be. Like the vibe is such that like, oh, I feel like I want to get out of here as soon as possible. And sort of even shielding her from it. Like Sterling's shielding Lyric and Randall's shielding Deja.

It's a weird spot to be in.

I remember that really clearly.

Talk to us. Okay, so you don't often get a chance to do drama. Obviously, you did something that took place in the 60s or the 80s, some show. I can't remember what it was.

some show like that or whatnot. Do you have an equal enjoyment in both environs? Does it matter to you in terms of which you enjoy the most? I know you can do it all. Do you enjoy one more than the other?

Well, I think that the more instant gratification is the comedy. Because it's kind of instant. You know if you're succeeding or failing, like right there. Drama, you don't so much know. Plus, drama, you have to really follow the through line. Like, you have to really read the script. Because you shoot it out of order, so you really have to kind of know where you are all the time.

Sitcom, you know, sitcom is like doing a little one-act play every week, and it's easy and it's fun. And either one is fine for me, as long as I understand the character and, and I understand the through line. Um, It's very hard for me to play characters that are close to who I am. Okay. I recede. Oh, interesting. I fall back.

The further away, like neurotic people, crazy people, even though I can be that, I'm a little more down to earth than that. But those people are so fun for me because they're a character to me. I can just be them. When they're close to me, like this was a little bit, I feel like, this is how Deborah Jo would have said all of this. It's harder for me.

So I don't know if you remember Sterling, but the first time I did it, you know, Becca came out and talked to me, the writer came out and talked to me and I was working a little too hard. And then Becca said, just you, just you. And that's what I did the second time. I'm going to cry. That's what I did the second time. And I remember Sterling, you went, That was amazing. I have to get out of here.

Yeah.

I remember.

It was really nice.

Also a testimony to being able to take a note. You're just like, okay. I got it. I understand that. It all went away and it penetrated.

I would say kudos to our writer of this particular episode, Keri Yegum, Nigerian, Nigerian-American, Nigerian lives in America himself, and pays particular attention to those sorts of things, right? So we go to the court, we get to the judge and you see Delroy kind of look over at the family and just sort of like has a moment of contemplation.

I really want. I need good work for me. For me.

Yeah.

I was about to say.

We had a great first scene when you first bring Deja to the house. Yeah. As you're leaving, I was like, so that's it? And you're like, yeah, that's it. I was like, I don't know if I'm prepared. And you're like, no, you are. And I'm like, you know, I've been looking up some stuff. And you're like, hey, man, you're going to be fine. Just take it one day at a time.

And it was this time of year. Because I remember pumpkins and I remember the leaves.

Sure. Yeah.

Did you... I did, actually. I had... There was a girlfriend that I had in high school, Gail D'Agostino, who was a social worker. And I... I don't know if I saw her at her reunions because sometimes I go to my class reunions. And anyway, I contacted her on Facebook and I had a long talk with her. Okay. And she's the one that said, no, you see so much of it.

You do not get emotionally involved in it. Yeah. It is your job. Right. and you do your job well. And so she calmed me down. You know, she, because honestly, God, I just wanted to flail around.

Right, right, right. But it's almost, it seems like you, if she was a long-term social worker too, it seems like you can't do it without getting to that place. If you are too emotional, like I think you just sort of- You burn out.

I want to say this is completely non-sequitur. Your hair looks amazing.

You look... Oh, you're so nice. It's the only thing I have left.

No, no, no, no, no.

My hair.

The whole face. Like, I remember, like, I have a little bit of a crush. And as I see these beautiful lips on the camera, I'm like, yeah.

I said it to her on set, too. She knows. She knows I got a thing for her. Do you want Mandy and I to leave? I'll take some time later.

Talk to us a little bit about what you've been up to since. Has there been more theater? Has there been more shows?

Congratulations. Thank you so much. I've just been incredibly fortunate. My career is... I've never worked more, and I'm an old person. I'm just so fortunate, and I work with really good people, and I I don't know how it happens, but I have done theater. I've done a lot of theater. I got to be an executive producer at my age for that 90s show. Congratulations. Thank you.

And then Jack Schaefer with Agatha. I did WandaVision first. And people... I just luck out. I work one thing and then they bring me along to another thing.

I think you kind of create your own luck, man. You bring the pain and people want it.

Create your own rup.

Geez, I'm going to get out of here.

And he says like, I'd like to talk to your social worker about something, but I'll have you guys come back.

I am in the Berkshires right now. This is my home. I am in the process of... getting rid of the rental house in LA. I have an apartment in New York City that that 70s show bought. I'm selling that. I'm out. I'm just done. I want one house and it's gonna be in Western Massachusetts in the mountains.

Oh, there you go. There you go. And I yesterday drove back and forth from Ohio and I picked up a puppy. Now I have a little puppy. So life is really, really good.

Thank you so much for making time for us. I was so excited. I was so excited when I was asked to do this. Thank you for thinking of me.

And you guys are like, what do you mean? Talk to her about what?

Bless you. Thank you. Thanks for being part of it.

Enjoy that puppy. Have a good day. And we're back. And it is time for our fan segment, ladies and gentlemen. This one's going to be fun.

It taught me to love my perfectly imperfect self.

Yeah. And he's like, like I said, I'd just like to talk to your social worker. So I'll see you in a few weeks. And you're like, okay. So we go to, you guys are all in the hallway. I think he's grabbing some vending machine stuff or what have you. And I think Jack, is it Jack or you? It's like, I just want to ask him, like, what is it that he wants to talk to the social worker about?

Well, because it's also a reminder that just because it's tough doesn't mean it shouldn't happen.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Unburdened my heart, brought meaning to my life, I loved, it healed me.

Go back to it, yeah.

It reminds me of when people say they just want to be normal. And it's like, what is normal? Show me what normal is, and then I'll tell you if you can beat it or not. Because there is no such thing. In the same way that there is no such thing as perfect. It's just our perception from the outside of what we think perfect is.

I think the thing that the show tried to show is that even in the midst of it, and even when you fell down, people kept trying. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? There was no giving up. Even though I've made a mistake, I've fallen flat on my face, let me see if I can pick myself up and figure it out anew.

And so thank you for all these little lovely excerpts that we took and probably totally out of context.

And he's like, you know, it's not appropriate for us to talk about this right now, but if you want to talk, let's go to Chambers, right? Go to Chambers. And I tell you, like, I felt it. I felt, I was like, and I kind of knew, I read the script, but as an audience member, I was like, he gonna say something about white people raising a black baby. You know what I'm saying?

Thank you very much for tuning in. Tell a friend. We'll see you next time on That Was Us. Peace.

who was very sexy, very beautiful. We got a chance to see her again. It was a joy to behold. We talked about William in the past and sort of second chances that the judge gave him and how things wind up working out and dovetailing into him meeting Randall in present day.

Like just when you think things are going to make a bad turn, we wind up finding that just at that moment, Randall pops back up into his life, which is kind of lovely.

Find your push.

That Was Us is filmed at Rabbit Grin Studios and produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith.

And he says it, and it's this interesting thing. And I have it happen within my house all the time, where I'm talking to Andrew in particular, because he's 13. Amari's still a baby. Because even Delroy says in the show, he's like, I didn't know what it was to be Black until I was eight or nine. One of those two ages, right? Which was the first time in which somebody called me a nigger, right?

And I know I heard this on set too, that there would be times in which he would say it, and then sometimes he would say n-word or whatnot. But for your coverage, he like said it. So you were like, boom, right? For sure. And it is one of those things, these conversations about race happen much earlier, I think, in households of color than they do in predominantly white households.

Because when you are the minority navigating your way through world, you have to know how the majority sees you. Women have an acute understanding what it's like to live in a man's world. Black people have an acute understanding of what it's like to live in a white world. LGBTQ people have a very acute understanding of what it's like to live in a straight world, right?

But the opposite doesn't necessarily hold true, right? So he's saying like, how are you going to deal with raising this black boy when you don't have a frame of... My father has heard it so many times. He knew. what to give me in this particular moment.

Right. And so I'm curious, like acting through it, like, because there's visceral things that will happen as an actor. Like what I'm imagining is like, I'll figure it out. You know what I'm saying? He's my child. I'll figure it out. So I'm just curious for you.

So what is it, what happens? There's some moment I believe that causes him to have a second thought that ultimately leads to his recusal.

It's the letter.

You sent the letter.

With the picture in the letter?

Okay. Because that was a beautiful moment and just saying like, listen, and you said basically what you just said there, all due respect, understand what you're saying. This is our son. We are Pearsons. We don't stop. So we'll just keep showing up. We're going to keep showing up. You give me this kid.

How are you guys doing today?

I'm doing well as well. It was a joy to dip into this episode. It's funny because you remember the show, but on a macro level, but then when you get granular again, you're like, oh, that happened. Right. Oh, that happened in this episode. Right.

Yeah. And he talked about how people... He said, like, he gets recognized for this show as much as anything else in his career, if not more so. That's wild. And he had two, three scenes? Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Two and a half. But the show was in the zeitgeist. He's like, man, I couldn't tell you how many times people come up and stop me for This Is Us.

So do I. Yeah. Okay. So he does recuse himself. And there's a little funny moment there where you guys are like, what does recuse mean? Is that a good thing? Yeah. They're like, we're not those people that use the cues on a regular basis.

Her name, by the way, is Connie Marie Brazelton. She is a dear friend of my mother-in-law's. Ryan and I lived in a property that she owned when we first got married. No way. Right? And she was one of the judges. I've also now lived long enough as a Black actor that I know a lot of the Black actors that play judges, both of them, in this episode of Russia.

You know who she was? She was on ER. You know how they had a handful of nurses that were always there?

She was one of those nurses, along with Abraham Ben-Ruby and stuff at the beginning. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

At the beginning. So yeah, that's how that happened. Stay in the same timeline because we sort of also opened this episode on young William, right? In front of another judge. And this guy was great.

Deborah Jo Rupp. Oh, Delroy Lindo. Popping up as our social worker in the present day. But let's talk about the past.

Yes.

If you guys look up on IMDB, tell us what he's from because I recognize him immediately.

I want to say. So keep going because he, so William sort of, he's about to be- Sentenced. Sentenced to prison for however long. But he's talking to William about, you know, how disappointed he is to have to do this because he doesn't have any prior record or whatnot. And so, and William says something to the effect of, you're disappointed. Like, you could never be more disappointed than me.

I'm the most disappointed man in the world. and says like, what would you have me do, judge, right? People are out there selling. Would you not have me use? If you've been through what I've been through, you would do the same thing that I have done.

And we have, we as an audience have an understanding of that. I think that the really interesting thing is that we as an audience have an understanding of what William went through and who he will become. And we also have this understanding of like how he can be perceived by someone who does not know his story. Sure. You know what I mean? Yes.

Which is an interesting thing to be able to hold both of those things simultaneous because it's like, oh, I may be guilty of just seeing the surface of something so often and assuming I know someone's story.

Yeah, yeah. So he, and I'm trying to remember what led to him coming to, but he talked about how he had sentenced a young boy to 10 years and I had to sentence somebody else to 15 years. And when I do it, I already know what the end of their story is going to be.

Which is a sort of interesting statement about Does rehabilitation occur with incarceration? Or does it just mean that I've now sent this individual down a path that is very hard to escape? Do you know what I'm saying?