Rashid Khalidi
Appearances
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
Well, what he was saying is don't do it here because we are here.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
Yeah, a salvation at the expense of an indigenous population, which understood from very early on that it would be supplanted. I mean, he was saying that, and Palestinians were saying it before World War I in their papers.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
Well, I mean, first of all, Zionism is many things. I argue in my work that Zionism is among many other things. It's a national movement. It starts as a national movement. It has no original necessary intention of developing into a settler colonial project. It's intended as a refuge for persecuted Jews.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
And it's based, as it develops, on an undeniable, incontrovertible connection between Judaism and the Jewish people and the Holy Land. So it's all of those things, of course. But as it developed, it understood that, first of all, these people saw themselves as Europeans. Yes, we are Jews. Yes, we are persecuted in Europe.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
But we are going to go elsewhere as Europeans, and we can only do that with the support of a great power. So Herzl spends his life trying to petition the Kaiser, trying to petition the Tsar of Russia, trying to petition the French Third Republic. And Weizmann, Chaim Weizmann, hits, you know, gold.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
when he manages to convince the British to become the patron of what they understand is a settler colonial project. The early Zionists, all of them, wall to wall, understood that they were colonizing Palestine. You wouldn't have had the land purchase agency called the Jewish Colonization Agency. That's not some anti-Semitic slur on a bunch of people who want to rescue the Jews from persecution.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
That's the description they gave themselves. for what they understood they were doing, and what they understood was their ancestral land, which they felt they had no choice but to colonize because of persecution in Europe. So, you know, you can walk and chew gum at the same time.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
It's unique. Let's start by saying that. There are settler colonial projects that develop into national projects. You and I are living in one. This is a settler colonial project. It's a national project. It's a nation state now. Canada, Australia, New Zealand. Others don't. Algeria didn't. Kenya didn't. Northern Rhodesia, Zimbabwe today didn't. So in that respect, Zionism is absolutely unique.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
It's unique in other respects. Every other settler colonial project I know of, Ireland, for example, involves an extension of the sovereignty and the population of the mother country. There's a mother country, which Zionism doesn't have, and the project is an extension. The king sends Protestants to Ulster, okay, or to Virginia, named for Queen Elizabeth. or to Jamestown, named for King James.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
It's an extension of the sovereignty of the English monarchy or of the French Republic into North Africa. Zionism doesn't fit that pattern at all. It's not an extension of the sovereignty of Great Britain. It doesn't involve an extension of the population. It's its own independent project, which in a transactional relationship,
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
hooks up with an imperial power to do its bidding as an ally, if you want, or a patron. So it's unique in multiple respects. I mean, it's not true that this is the only settler colony that involves people fleeing persecution. The Quakers, the Puritans are refugees from persecution by the Church of England. So it's not entirely unique in that respect.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
But it is unique in having this connection to Palestine, to the Holy Land of Judaism and the Jewish people.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
Yeah, there's the matter of can you succeed entirely in eliminating the native population or reducing them to subjection, which is what happens in Australasia and North America. It's not what happens in other settler colonies. It's not what happens in Algeria. It's not what happens in Kenya. It's not what happens in South Africa or in Ireland.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
You're talking about partition.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
Unless, heaven forbid, I don't think Israel can be eliminated. Nuclear power, one of the strongest countries on earth, it's not going anywhere, nor are the Israelis. Some may leave, but that's not going to change anything. Some Palestinians may leave, that's not going to change anything.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
You have two peoples in the same place, and both of them in their imaginary see it in its entirety as their ancestral homeland. I'm not talking about reality, I'm talking about imagined communities, okay? That's how the Palestinians see it. That's how the Israelis see it. And I would argue on the one hand, you could say there are various reasons why the Palestinians may be right.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
And there are some reasons you might say the Israelis are right. But anyway, that's another issue. So how do you deal with that? There are two ways. You cut the baby in half, the Solomonic situation, which is what partition supposedly was directed at doing. Or you figure out a way for these two peoples to live in some kind of binational situation.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
Personally, if it were up to me, I would prefer the latter. I don't see how you can partition this country. I think though you have to go through some very painful processes to get to any resolution. that's just inequitable and sustainable. I mean, you have a colonial reality. You have a situation where one people is supreme.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
You have the supremacy of the Jewish people as instantiated in a constitutional law of 2018, the Israel is the nation state of the Jewish people law. That's a law which says there's only one people that has the right of self-determination. In other words, there's one people in Palestine. So all of the structures that are related to that view have to be dismantled. You cannot have a resolution.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
The short answer is no, I wouldn't attempt it. I mean, I'm obliged with new editions of my book that are published in different countries to write. update it with a forward or an afterward. And that's a very difficult job because it's shifting sands. You're standing in a river that's always moving. So, it's almost impossible to do.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
unless they're dismantled, whether you have two states or one state or a confederation, if there is an equitable solution in which both peoples can achieve their objective of self-determination and in which everybody is treated justly and equitably. And we're so far away from that today. You have to decolonize. I'm sorry to use the term.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
You have to dismantle a lot of structures, very powerful structures. You want to get anywhere towards a just, equitable resolution. A whole lot of changes have to happen. And they're not going to happen quickly, unfortunately. And those changes include within the Palestinian polity, but mainly in Israel and Israel's supporters, without which it cannot do what it does.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
Well, I mean, the Palestinians are suffering a recurrence of collective trauma. as a result of the Gaza war. I mean, we all wake up every morning and we doom scroll to see how many more people were slaughtered and if anybody we know has had anything to happen to them. And then we all go to bed doing the same thing.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
And they have a lot to overcome in terms of how they're going to figure out their strategy going forward. I mean, I mentioned the fact that you have a completely splintered Palestinian national movement. It almost doesn't exist. There's no real Palestinian diplomacy. There's no Palestinian public diplomacy. There's no Palestinian strategy.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
There are things happening that nobody's doing anything about. in an official way. I mean, you have Palestinian civil society is active, is doing various things, but that's not something for civil society. It's something for political leadership, which the Palestinians do not have at this moment. So they have a long haul towards resuscitating their national movement.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
It's not the first time this has happened. It's been shattered at least twice in the last 50, 60 years, 70 years. That's a prerequisite for anything. Where do the Palestinians, where do we want to go What is our objective and how are we gonna get there? And I don't think there's clarity on this from these two discredited movements that dominate Palestinian politics right now.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
And I don't think there's a consensus and there has to be some kind of consensus around national objectives. So the Palestinians need to do all of that. And at the same time,
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
resist this ongoing moloch, this ongoing bulldozer of colonization and settlement and theft of land and this massive machine of occupation, which is being reinserted from the borders of Gaza into Gaza and which is expanding every day in the West Bank.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
I mean, it involves things that nobody even thinks of, like the population register, like the fact that the General Security Services knows about every single Palestinian everywhere inside the occupied territories and in Israel and interferes with their lives at will. I mean, that's a mechanism of control and domination, which the Palestinians have to resist. and resist in various ways.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
The forwards that I wrote six months ago for three or four foreign translations are outdated already, which is why I try to avoid predicting the future and I try to avoid writing about the present as much as I can. I'm always asked to do that. And so I hesitate about starting on October 7th. I mean, it is a cataclysmic event. Heaven knows. It's led to enormous changes in the Middle East.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
Just by staying on the land, staying in Palestine, they're resisting. But they have to do it in active ways, in passive ways, in all kinds of ways. And that's not easy to do when you don't have a strategy or a leadership.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
Yeah, that's correct. It did more than that. It did more than that. I mean, think about it for a minute, David. After 1948, virtually every Israeli war was fought on Arab soil. And the Israeli population was basically preserved. Iraq fired a few missiles into Israel. You had horrific suicide attacks in the 1990s and early 2000s.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
But with a few exceptions, Israel's population was relatively protected from harm while Arab populations were pummeled in every war. And so this is the first time since 1948 that you had an eruption into Israel and an attack on Israeli civilians. It is the largest civilian death toll in Israel since 1948.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
The Israeli military didn't regain control of these border settlements and of its military bases, all of which, most of which were overrun, for four days till the 10th. That is obviously traumatic. I mean, and of course it triggered all kinds of historic memories. for Israelis and for Jews. I mean, obviously, just as Palestinians are triggered thinking of 67 and 48 and whatever else.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
Israelis were triggered. I mean, we had these comparisons to pogroms. We had peculiar comparisons to the Holocaust. 800 people is not 6 million people, 800 civilians. But anyway, the point is that in terms of people's imaginary, that's what was going through their heads. And everybody in Israel is connected, just like everybody in Palestine is connected.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
You know, everybody knew what was happening in those four days, those three or four days. So, yeah, trauma, trauma. However, let us treat human beings as human beings. 800 Israeli civilians were killed. 50, 60, 70, we won't know until the rubble is cleared in a year or two how many Palestinians were killed.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
So trauma is trauma. I'm not suggesting that people's suffering can be measured and compared. But I think if we have the same yardstick for humanity, we are talking about a level of tragedy which I don't think has frankly been conveyed as it should have been by the media.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
And Ireland as well.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
It is unavoidable and inevitable. There's no other way. Neither side's going to eliminate the other and nobody's going anywhere. So, you know, it may take us another two generations or another generation. I don't know. I'm a historian. I can't tell you about what's going to happen. But I can tell you there's no alternative. There is no alternative. And it has to be based on justice and equality.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
So it's going to be a marker for historians for a very long time to come. But I think the antecedents are as important as the sequels.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
You cannot have one group that has rights that the other group doesn't have. And that's the problem right now. That's the core problem. You know, you've established a national entity. Fine, it's there. That national entity cannot control everybody and everything forever, which is what the course that unfortunately Israel is currently on.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
I think that... A distinction probably is important about who decided on this and who knew about this and what the people who decided on it thought.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
I have a sense, I may be wrong, I'm not in Gaza, I'm not in touch with these people, I really don't know, but I have a sense that the people in Gaza, the military leadership in Gaza, planned and decided on this on the basis of an estimation of the situation that wasn't shared either, I think, entirely with the rest of the Hamas leadership outside.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
or with their putative allies in Lebanon, Hezbollah, or with the Iranians. And everything that the Iranians and Hezbollah have done and said ever since that reinforces this view. They were not taken into the confidence of the people who decided on this. I'm not sure about the rest of the Hamas leadership.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
The second thing is I think they had a misestimation of the regional situation, that they could spark something, which I think they thought would lead to a regional cataclysm, whatever.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
Well, I think they thought everybody else would join in with them. I believe that that's what they thought. I have some evidence for that. But I, you know, let's wait. We'll see. The people in Qatar and Turkey and Lebanon will talk sooner or later and we'll know.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
And the Iranians have already pretty much made it clear and the Hezbollah made it pretty clear that they weren't taken into anybody's confidence and they weren't, you know, party to this decision. I don't think they shared the expectations that the people, the military people in Gaza had. And I think they thought there would be an uprising across Palestine.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
I think they thought that their allies would join in. I think they believed in this rhetoric of an axis of resistance. And I think that they misestimated. To put it very blunt. Hezbollah did join in a day later. Yes. The next day. But again, look at how they joined in. They didn't cross the border.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
You know, some people have said that the Palestinians are now bereft and don't have any allies. I was never a believer. in the idea that what called itself the Axis, or what the Iranians and their friends called the Axis of Resistance, was designed to support the Palestinians. I mean, it did in some respects support one faction of the Palestinians, Hamas and other groups.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
But to the extent to which it even existed as a real coalition of interests, it was designed by Iran to protect the Iranian regime, to protect Iran. And Hezbollah were willing allies in this, as were, inshallah, in Yemen. They bought into the project, and they had their own objectives, each one of those three actors, which had very little to do, in fact, in my view, with Palestine.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
I mean, governments all over the world have used the Palestinian cause in different ways, and at the same time have sometimes rendered assistance to the Palestinians. But Iran was doing this for Iran, the regime's sake, and for Iran's national interests.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
And I think this idea that Palestinians are bereft of allies assumes that they had people who were doing things for their interest, which I don't think was true. I honestly do not think it's true. And the way in which Hezbollah behaved, they sacrificed a great deal. I'm not denigrating them. But they attacked Israel in an entirely limited fashion. They didn't cross the border.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
They tried to avoid attacking civilian targets. They may have killed 50 people in 14 months, civilians in Israel. They were clearly trying to target Israeli military installations and Israeli strategic targets and not kill civilians.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
Unlike what Israel did in Gaza, does in Gaza, and did and is doing in Lebanon, and may apparently be doing now in Syria, where they attack military and civilian targets indiscriminately. There was a dosage to what they were trying to do. In other words, they weren't part of the project, in my view. They hadn't bought on to whatever it was that the military leadership in Gaza had planned for them.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
They had to. They felt they had to. You know, their commitment to Palestine obliged them to do that. They had no choice. The Iranians were obliged to do that. I don't think the Iranians wanted to get involved in a war with Israel. They're terrified of Israel. as is every country around Israel, by the way, and have been for decades.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
Since 1948, in fact, Arab countries have been scared of Israel, most other countries. You know, Israel has bombed seven Arab capitals. Most of the wars have been fought on Arab soil. Arab governments are very afraid of Israel, and I think Iran is afraid of Israel, with good reason, I would add.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
And ethnic cleansing. They all go together. You boot the population out, you occupy, and then you settle.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
Well, first of all, the Palestinian movement is fragmented. There is no unified Palestinian national movement. There are two discredited factions, neither of which, it appears to me today, has a viable strategy. So the Palestinian National Movement, for the better part of two decades, has been, in my view, in terrible shape. It's in just as bad or worse shape today.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
The Palestinians are in worse shape today because what's going on in the West Bank is almost invisible. The rolling annexation, the rolling theft of land, the rolling expansion of settlements, the ongoing incorporation of most of the West Bank into Israel, whether it's formally annexed or not. And that process is about to recommence in Gaza. It started in 1967.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
It was partially rolled back in 2005 with the evacuation of the settlements and with the removal of the occupation to the frontiers of Gaza rather than being inside of Gaza. So Gaza was controlled and occupied from without rather than from within. It's about to be controlled from within again. So the Palestinians are in that sense worse off. Israel is also, in my view, worse off.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
Occupation, ethnic cleansing, Colonization produces resistance. If you don't eliminate the population you're colonizing, they will resist. Now, they may try and expel them. In other words, ethnically cleanse them entirely.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
I mean, you have to rewind, David. You can't say, what should they have done after October 7th? You put people in a pressure cooker and you don't expect them to explode? Of course they're going to explode. The problem is the pressure cooker. The problem isn't the explosion.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
I mean, if you start from October 7th, there's only one set of answers, force and more force, which is Israel's almost universal response. to the Palestinian resistance to the colonization of Palestine. There have been exceptions, Rabin, Barak, sort of, Olmert, sort of. But with those few exceptions, it's always been force and more force. And that's what they did, of course, after October 7th.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
But the problem was not starting. It did not start on October 7th.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
I mean, I've made a critique. I mean, if you believe in international humanitarian law, you don't kill civilians. And I've argued this previously. I mean, I quote Iqbal Ahmed, against this enemy, this kind of means, indiscriminate use of violence, is counterproductive politically. It's also immoral, i.e. it violates moral laws. And it's also a violation of international humanitarian law.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
And one would hope that both of those would be serious considerations. But it's also politically extremely unwise. And that political calculation was apparently not there, or they just didn't control things. I would argue that's morally wrong. I would argue that's a violation of international humanitarian law. I've published this. I've said this repeatedly.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
But it's politically a horrific mistake, in my view, which doesn't justify or in any way mitigate the horrors that Israel inflicted 50-fold on Palestinians. thereafter. But it helped to provoke that, and it helped to justify that in the eyes of the world.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
Yusuf Diyal Khaldi had been a Western educated, liberal constitutionalist elected to the first Ottoman parliament, opposed Sultan Abdulhamid's autocracy, was exiled, got into trouble, went to Austria, taught at the university there, and later on became mayor of Jerusalem. and had served all over the Ottoman Empire, had taught in Vienna. After he studied in Vienna, he went back and taught there.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
He was a student, among other things, of Judaism. We have his books, so we know what he was interested in. And he obviously knew everything about Zionism. He had followed the first and second Zionist congresses. He was apparently familiar with Herzl's book, The Jewish State, Der Judenstaat, The State of the Jews, Jewish State. It depends on how you translate the German. So he writes to Herzl.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
in 1899. And he said to him, of course, you have a certain right to Palestine. We know your connection. We're cousins. It was a very friendly letter. We understand the persecution that you're subject to. I mean, he'd lived in Vienna. Vienna had for a very long time this horrific anti-Semitic mayor, Karl Leuger. Horrific man.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
One of the things that Herzl personally was responding to was the anti-Semitism of Austria itself. And he knew all about that. He'd lived there. He'd taught there. And he said, but What you're trying to do in Palestine is impossible. It causes all these problems. There's a population here that will not be supplanted.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
I'm paraphrasing from his letter to Herzl, which he sent via the French chief rabbi, whom he apparently knew. And he said, for the sake of God, leave Palestine alone. Talking, in other words, about all the problems that we've seen. Meaning what? Don't come. Oriental Jewish communities, Mizrahi communities for the Palestinians and for the Zionist project.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism
He said, you know, it's a fine idea in principle, but doing it here is going to cause these problems. In other words, he didn't deny the idea that the Jews are a people, have a connection to the Holy Land, have a right if they want to be a national group suffering from persecution.