Aisha Roscoe

We're back with a Sunday story talking to Barbara Bradley Haggerty about Ben Spencer. Ben's just been convicted of murder, but the judge throws out the case. So, Barbara, like, what happened?

We're back with a Sunday story talking to Barbara Bradley Haggerty about Ben Spencer. Ben's just been convicted of murder, but the judge throws out the case. So, Barbara, like, what happened?

So basically, the witness lied and the prosecutor knew it because they had the receipt. So does that happen often?

So basically, the witness lied and the prosecutor knew it because they had the receipt. So does that happen often?

So he went back on trial again.

So he went back on trial again.

Yeah, that's the thing. I mean, that's why people often take deals whether they're guilty or not.

Yeah, that's the thing. I mean, that's why people often take deals whether they're guilty or not.

Yeah, no, I can only imagine how that probably, you know, affected the jury. But how did Ben take this?

Yeah, no, I can only imagine how that probably, you know, affected the jury. But how did Ben take this?

For the next seven years, Barbara dedicated herself to reporting on Ben Spencer's case. Now she's written a book about it, Bringing Ben Home, A Murder, A Conviction, and the Fight to Redeem American Justice. She joins us now. Welcome to the podcast.

For the next seven years, Barbara dedicated herself to reporting on Ben Spencer's case. Now she's written a book about it, Bringing Ben Home, A Murder, A Conviction, and the Fight to Redeem American Justice. She joins us now. Welcome to the podcast.

You know, I mean, even there, he's, you know, leaning on his faith. Where was Ben sent to serve out his sentence?

You know, I mean, even there, he's, you know, leaning on his faith. Where was Ben sent to serve out his sentence?

And so when you say the best of times and the worst of times, what do you mean?

And so when you say the best of times and the worst of times, what do you mean?

So I got a million questions, but I guess first, like, what was your frame of mind when you started your own reporting on this story? Did you believe that Ben was innocent or did you think that he might be guilty?

So I got a million questions, but I guess first, like, what was your frame of mind when you started your own reporting on this story? Did you believe that Ben was innocent or did you think that he might be guilty?

So did Ben Spencer's attorneys, you know, did they try to jump on this bandwagon? And was there any DNA that they could use to get him off?

So did Ben Spencer's attorneys, you know, did they try to jump on this bandwagon? And was there any DNA that they could use to get him off?

Yeah, well, I mean, I guess that he should have had a chance on appeal.

Yeah, well, I mean, I guess that he should have had a chance on appeal.

Did Ben just kind of give up hope at this point?

Did Ben just kind of give up hope at this point?

I mean, by this point, Ben has been in prison a long time. Like, it's amazing. And just now he's getting someone to pick up his case.

I mean, by this point, Ben has been in prison a long time. Like, it's amazing. And just now he's getting someone to pick up his case.

And I would imagine things change after this. Maybe not quickly, but they change. That's right. Be sure to listen to the second part of our series about Ben Spencer in which Barbara Bradley Haggerty describes the uphill battle to prove his innocence. A battle fought by both Ben on the inside as well as a handful of people on the outside.

And I would imagine things change after this. Maybe not quickly, but they change. That's right. Be sure to listen to the second part of our series about Ben Spencer in which Barbara Bradley Haggerty describes the uphill battle to prove his innocence. A battle fought by both Ben on the inside as well as a handful of people on the outside.

You can listen to that episode now right here in the Up First podcast feed.

You can listen to that episode now right here in the Up First podcast feed.

OK, well, before we kind of dive in deeper, can you tell me about Ben Spencer and how did he get charged with this crime?

OK, well, before we kind of dive in deeper, can you tell me about Ben Spencer and how did he get charged with this crime?

Okay, so what happened on March 22nd?

Okay, so what happened on March 22nd?

For years, Barbara covered the Department of Justice and religion for NPR. She eventually moved on to become a contributing writer for The Atlantic, still focusing on issues of law and justice. But then in the summer of 2016, she was on the hunt for a new story, and she called a favorite source of hers, Jim McCloskey.

For years, Barbara covered the Department of Justice and religion for NPR. She eventually moved on to become a contributing writer for The Atlantic, still focusing on issues of law and justice. But then in the summer of 2016, she was on the hunt for a new story, and she called a favorite source of hers, Jim McCloskey.

I'm Aisha Roscoe, and this is a Sunday story from Up First, where we go beyond the news of the day to bring you one big story. As a journalist, you know, sometimes there are stories that just stick with you. And, you know, I'm certainly not alone in that. Some people, when they're reporting, encounter a story that changes their entire life. And that's what happened to Barbara Bradley Haggerty.

I'm Aisha Roscoe, and this is a Sunday story from Up First, where we go beyond the news of the day to bring you one big story. As a journalist, you know, sometimes there are stories that just stick with you. And, you know, I'm certainly not alone in that. Some people, when they're reporting, encounter a story that changes their entire life. And that's what happened to Barbara Bradley Haggerty.

Well, I mean, $25,000, that's a lot of money even today. And I mean, definitely a lot of money back in 1987. So who were these witnesses and what did they have to say?

Well, I mean, $25,000, that's a lot of money even today. And I mean, definitely a lot of money back in 1987. So who were these witnesses and what did they have to say?

I mean, I can't imagine waking up to that and being accused of murder. I know.

I mean, I can't imagine waking up to that and being accused of murder. I know.

Yeah, so he was thinking that, well, if I had nothing to do with this, they would just realize they got the wrong person and, you know, things would go back to the way they were, right?

Yeah, so he was thinking that, well, if I had nothing to do with this, they would just realize they got the wrong person and, you know, things would go back to the way they were, right?

Jim was a former seminarian who found his calling reinvestigating the cases of people who he had thought had been wrongly convicted. So when Jim picked up Barbara's call, she asked him this one question. What's the case that haunts you? Here's how he answered.

Jim was a former seminarian who found his calling reinvestigating the cases of people who he had thought had been wrongly convicted. So when Jim picked up Barbara's call, she asked him this one question. What's the case that haunts you? Here's how he answered.

Well, I mean, all of this evidence, I mean, it does sound so incriminating, especially because the people knew him and they saying they saw him.

Well, I mean, all of this evidence, I mean, it does sound so incriminating, especially because the people knew him and they saying they saw him.

Twenty five percent. So a quarter of the time it's jailhouse informants. Right. For people on death row. Who turn out to be innocent.

Twenty five percent. So a quarter of the time it's jailhouse informants. Right. For people on death row. Who turn out to be innocent.

I mean, it sounds like human nature, but obviously that's a lot stacked against Ben. You know, you've got the tunnel vision, the jailhouse informants, this reward money. And then we can't ignore the fact that you have power and you have race involved in this as well.

I mean, it sounds like human nature, but obviously that's a lot stacked against Ben. You know, you've got the tunnel vision, the jailhouse informants, this reward money. And then we can't ignore the fact that you have power and you have race involved in this as well.

So the worst outcome for Ben. It just seems so wild that based on a few people saying something, you could be convicted of murder.

So the worst outcome for Ben. It just seems so wild that based on a few people saying something, you could be convicted of murder.

I mean, obviously, that's a part of how Ben ended up in prison. Can I ask you, did Ben have a decent lawyer?

I mean, obviously, that's a part of how Ben ended up in prison. Can I ask you, did Ben have a decent lawyer?

It did not work. And then Ben ends up in prison. Well, actually, not right away. Oh, okay. Okay. So he didn't end up in prison right away?

It did not work. And then Ben ends up in prison. Well, actually, not right away. Oh, okay. Okay. So he didn't end up in prison right away?

More after the break. Stay with us.

More after the break. Stay with us.

At the time, Ben Spencer had been in prison for 30 years. Ben is a Black man, and he was convicted in 1987 of killing a white man in Dallas. Jim believed he was innocent. A judge had even declared him innocent 20 years after the original conviction. But the elected judges on the Texas High Court had disagreed, and so it seemed Ben would spend the rest of his life in prison.

At the time, Ben Spencer had been in prison for 30 years. Ben is a Black man, and he was convicted in 1987 of killing a white man in Dallas. Jim believed he was innocent. A judge had even declared him innocent 20 years after the original conviction. But the elected judges on the Texas High Court had disagreed, and so it seemed Ben would spend the rest of his life in prison.

I'm Aisha Roscoe, and this is a Sunday Story from Up First. I always like summer best. You can eat fresh corn from Daddy's garden, and okra, and greens, and cabbage, and lots of barbecue, and buttermilk, and homemade ice cream at the church picnics. These are the words of the great African-American poet, Nikki Giovanni, from her poem, Knoxville, Tennessee.

I'm Aisha Roscoe, and this is a Sunday Story from Up First. I always like summer best. You can eat fresh corn from Daddy's garden, and okra, and greens, and cabbage, and lots of barbecue, and buttermilk, and homemade ice cream at the church picnics. These are the words of the great African-American poet, Nikki Giovanni, from her poem, Knoxville, Tennessee.

Today, we bring you this incredible conversation. Do you think about the legacy that you will leave behind?

Today, we bring you this incredible conversation. Do you think about the legacy that you will leave behind?

Oh.

Oh.

Make sure to follow NPR's Wildcard podcast wherever you listen. This episode of Wildcard was produced by Lee Hale and edited by Dave Blanchard. It was fact-checked by Barclay Walsh and mastered by Robert Rodriguez. The Sunday Story team includes Andrew Mambo, Justine Yan, Jenny Schmidt, and Liana Simstrom. I'm Aisha Roscoe, and this is a Sunday Story from Up First.

Make sure to follow NPR's Wildcard podcast wherever you listen. This episode of Wildcard was produced by Lee Hale and edited by Dave Blanchard. It was fact-checked by Barclay Walsh and mastered by Robert Rodriguez. The Sunday Story team includes Andrew Mambo, Justine Yan, Jenny Schmidt, and Liana Simstrom. I'm Aisha Roscoe, and this is a Sunday Story from Up First.

We'll be back tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week. Until then, have a great rest of your weekend.

We'll be back tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week. Until then, have a great rest of your weekend.

She died earlier this week at the age of 81. Nikki Giovanni was called many things, the poet of the Black Revolution, activist, spoken word artist, cultural icon, children's book author, professor, Christian, radiant voice of Black joy and struggle. To me, she was also an unapologetic truth teller. And some of her words and poems, I could feel them at a molecular level.

She died earlier this week at the age of 81. Nikki Giovanni was called many things, the poet of the Black Revolution, activist, spoken word artist, cultural icon, children's book author, professor, Christian, radiant voice of Black joy and struggle. To me, she was also an unapologetic truth teller. And some of her words and poems, I could feel them at a molecular level.

That's how much I related to them. Giovanni grew up with an alcoholic, abusive father in a house without indoor plumbing. And while she was never afraid to explore those hardships in her poetry, she also celebrated what was beautiful about community, food, and family. Earlier this year, my colleague and host of the podcast, Wild Card, Rachel Martin, spoke to Nikki Giovanni.

That's how much I related to them. Giovanni grew up with an alcoholic, abusive father in a house without indoor plumbing. And while she was never afraid to explore those hardships in her poetry, she also celebrated what was beautiful about community, food, and family. Earlier this year, my colleague and host of the podcast, Wild Card, Rachel Martin, spoke to Nikki Giovanni.

A crowd gathered outside in Tel Aviv cheered when a big-screen TV showed the Israeli soldiers being handed over to the Red Cross.

A crowd gathered outside in Tel Aviv cheered when a big-screen TV showed the Israeli soldiers being handed over to the Red Cross.

An internal memo obtained by NPR calls for U.S. humanitarian and development programs to stop their work.

An internal memo obtained by NPR calls for U.S. humanitarian and development programs to stop their work.

The directive expands on an executive order that President Trump issued earlier in the week.

The directive expands on an executive order that President Trump issued earlier in the week.

The U.S. State Department pauses most foreign aid programs. The Trump administration says it wants to undertake a thorough review.

The U.S. State Department pauses most foreign aid programs. The Trump administration says it wants to undertake a thorough review.

So stay with us. We have the news you need to start your weekend. Hamas took the Israeli soldiers captive 15 months ago. during its October 7th raid.

So stay with us. We have the news you need to start your weekend. Hamas took the Israeli soldiers captive 15 months ago. during its October 7th raid.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr., the son of the slain attorney general from the 1960s, is headed towards confirmation hearings next week.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr., the son of the slain attorney general from the 1960s, is headed towards confirmation hearings next week.

Many in the medical community oppose his confirmation, though some do support it. NPR's Will Stone joins us now to talk about it. Hi, Will.

Many in the medical community oppose his confirmation, though some do support it. NPR's Will Stone joins us now to talk about it. Hi, Will.

So, Will, what are the main concerns about Kennedy's confirmation?

So, Will, what are the main concerns about Kennedy's confirmation?

Will, where is this pushback coming from?

Will, where is this pushback coming from?

But RFK Jr. has vowed to address chronic diseases like obesity and diabetes and trying to make Americans healthier again. What about that?

But RFK Jr. has vowed to address chronic diseases like obesity and diabetes and trying to make Americans healthier again. What about that?

In exchange, Israel will hand over a total of 200 Palestinian prisoners and detainees. I'm Aisha Roscoe.

In exchange, Israel will hand over a total of 200 Palestinian prisoners and detainees. I'm Aisha Roscoe.

OK, but but there are some supporters in the medical community. Who are they?

OK, but but there are some supporters in the medical community. Who are they?

So how likely is it that Kennedy will get confirmed?

So how likely is it that Kennedy will get confirmed?

That's NPR's Will Stone. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you.

That's NPR's Will Stone. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you.

And I'm Aisha Roscoe. Today's podcast was produced by Andrew Craig, with help from Fernando Naro, Michael Radcliffe directed.

And I'm Aisha Roscoe. Today's podcast was produced by Andrew Craig, with help from Fernando Naro, Michael Radcliffe directed.

Andy Huther is our technical director with engineering support from Zach Coleman, David Greenberg, and author Holiday Laurent.

Andy Huther is our technical director with engineering support from Zach Coleman, David Greenberg, and author Holiday Laurent.

Tomorrow on the Sunday Story, inside a notorious prison in Syria where thousands of people were detained and killed under former President Bashar al-Assad.

Tomorrow on the Sunday Story, inside a notorious prison in Syria where thousands of people were detained and killed under former President Bashar al-Assad.

I'm Aisha Roscoe, and this is Up First from NPR News. California Governor Gavin Newsom says he wants to know why there's been loss of water supply and pressure as firefighters make scant progress against blazes that have claimed nearly 60 square miles.

I'm Aisha Roscoe, and this is Up First from NPR News. California Governor Gavin Newsom says he wants to know why there's been loss of water supply and pressure as firefighters make scant progress against blazes that have claimed nearly 60 square miles.

Deadly wildfires usher in 2025 in and around Los Angeles, while 2024 takes its official place as the hottest year on record.

Deadly wildfires usher in 2025 in and around Los Angeles, while 2024 takes its official place as the hottest year on record.

The Palisades fire expanded significantly overnight, bringing new evacuation orders. There are also now dusk-to-dawn curfews in areas around the two biggest fires in Southern California.

The Palisades fire expanded significantly overnight, bringing new evacuation orders. There are also now dusk-to-dawn curfews in areas around the two biggest fires in Southern California.

2024 was the hottest year ever recorded in human history. That's according to newly released reports, and it comes as the past two years have been even hotter than scientists expected.

2024 was the hottest year ever recorded in human history. That's according to newly released reports, and it comes as the past two years have been even hotter than scientists expected.

Its fate in the United States is now in the hands of the Supreme Court. Lawyers for the video app argued before the court yesterday, asking the justices to halt a law that could have the service banned in eight days.

Its fate in the United States is now in the hands of the Supreme Court. Lawyers for the video app argued before the court yesterday, asking the justices to halt a law that could have the service banned in eight days.

And that's up first for Saturday, January 11th, 2025. I'm Aisha Roscoe.

And that's up first for Saturday, January 11th, 2025. I'm Aisha Roscoe.

Today's podcast was produced by Michael Radcliffe with help from Chris Thomas and Gabe O'Connor. Andrew Craig directed.

Today's podcast was produced by Michael Radcliffe with help from Chris Thomas and Gabe O'Connor. Andrew Craig directed.

Andy Huther is our technical director with engineering support from Zach Coleman, David Greenberg, and Arthur Holliday-Lorent.

Andy Huther is our technical director with engineering support from Zach Coleman, David Greenberg, and Arthur Holliday-Lorent.

Tomorrow on the Sunday Story, a look at Christian nationalism in the U.S. through the lens of a rural far-right church. It has influence far beyond tiny Moscow, Idaho.

Tomorrow on the Sunday Story, a look at Christian nationalism in the U.S. through the lens of a rural far-right church. It has influence far beyond tiny Moscow, Idaho.

Please, just, I'm going to ask just nicely.

Please, just, I'm going to ask just nicely.

A crowd gathered outside in Tel Aviv cheered when a big-screen TV showed the Israeli soldiers being handed over to the Red Cross.

An internal memo obtained by NPR calls for U.S. humanitarian and development programs to stop their work.

The directive expands on an executive order that President Trump issued earlier in the week.

The U.S. State Department pauses most foreign aid programs. The Trump administration says it wants to undertake a thorough review.

So stay with us. We have the news you need to start your weekend. Hamas took the Israeli soldiers captive 15 months ago. during its October 7th raid.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr., the son of the slain attorney general from the 1960s, is headed towards confirmation hearings next week.

Many in the medical community oppose his confirmation, though some do support it. NPR's Will Stone joins us now to talk about it. Hi, Will.

So, Will, what are the main concerns about Kennedy's confirmation?

Will, where is this pushback coming from?

But RFK Jr. has vowed to address chronic diseases like obesity and diabetes and trying to make Americans healthier again. What about that?

In exchange, Israel will hand over a total of 200 Palestinian prisoners and detainees. I'm Aisha Roscoe.

OK, but but there are some supporters in the medical community. Who are they?

So how likely is it that Kennedy will get confirmed?

That's NPR's Will Stone. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you.

And I'm Aisha Roscoe. Today's podcast was produced by Andrew Craig, with help from Fernando Naro, Michael Radcliffe directed.

Andy Huther is our technical director with engineering support from Zach Coleman, David Greenberg, and author Holiday Laurent.

Tomorrow on the Sunday Story, inside a notorious prison in Syria where thousands of people were detained and killed under former President Bashar al-Assad.

I'm Aisha Roscoe, and this is Up First from NPR News. California Governor Gavin Newsom says he wants to know why there's been loss of water supply and pressure as firefighters make scant progress against blazes that have claimed nearly 60 square miles.

Deadly wildfires usher in 2025 in and around Los Angeles, while 2024 takes its official place as the hottest year on record.

The Palisades fire expanded significantly overnight, bringing new evacuation orders. There are also now dusk-to-dawn curfews in areas around the two biggest fires in Southern California.

2024 was the hottest year ever recorded in human history. That's according to newly released reports, and it comes as the past two years have been even hotter than scientists expected.

Its fate in the United States is now in the hands of the Supreme Court. Lawyers for the video app argued before the court yesterday, asking the justices to halt a law that could have the service banned in eight days.

And that's up first for Saturday, January 11th, 2025. I'm Aisha Roscoe.

Today's podcast was produced by Michael Radcliffe with help from Chris Thomas and Gabe O'Connor. Andrew Craig directed.

Andy Huther is our technical director with engineering support from Zach Coleman, David Greenberg, and Arthur Holliday-Lorent.

Tomorrow on the Sunday Story, a look at Christian nationalism in the U.S. through the lens of a rural far-right church. It has influence far beyond tiny Moscow, Idaho.

Please, just, I'm going to ask just nicely.

We're back with a Sunday story talking to Barbara Bradley Haggerty about Ben Spencer. Ben's just been convicted of murder, but the judge throws out the case. So, Barbara, like, what happened?

So basically, the witness lied and the prosecutor knew it because they had the receipt. So does that happen often?

So he went back on trial again.

Yeah, that's the thing. I mean, that's why people often take deals whether they're guilty or not.

Yeah, no, I can only imagine how that probably, you know, affected the jury. But how did Ben take this?

For the next seven years, Barbara dedicated herself to reporting on Ben Spencer's case. Now she's written a book about it, Bringing Ben Home, A Murder, A Conviction, and the Fight to Redeem American Justice. She joins us now. Welcome to the podcast.

You know, I mean, even there, he's, you know, leaning on his faith. Where was Ben sent to serve out his sentence?

And so when you say the best of times and the worst of times, what do you mean?

So I got a million questions, but I guess first, like, what was your frame of mind when you started your own reporting on this story? Did you believe that Ben was innocent or did you think that he might be guilty?

So did Ben Spencer's attorneys, you know, did they try to jump on this bandwagon? And was there any DNA that they could use to get him off?

Yeah, well, I mean, I guess that he should have had a chance on appeal.

Did Ben just kind of give up hope at this point?

I mean, by this point, Ben has been in prison a long time. Like, it's amazing. And just now he's getting someone to pick up his case.

And I would imagine things change after this. Maybe not quickly, but they change. That's right. Be sure to listen to the second part of our series about Ben Spencer in which Barbara Bradley Haggerty describes the uphill battle to prove his innocence. A battle fought by both Ben on the inside as well as a handful of people on the outside.

You can listen to that episode now right here in the Up First podcast feed.

OK, well, before we kind of dive in deeper, can you tell me about Ben Spencer and how did he get charged with this crime?

Okay, so what happened on March 22nd?

For years, Barbara covered the Department of Justice and religion for NPR. She eventually moved on to become a contributing writer for The Atlantic, still focusing on issues of law and justice. But then in the summer of 2016, she was on the hunt for a new story, and she called a favorite source of hers, Jim McCloskey.

I'm Aisha Roscoe, and this is a Sunday story from Up First, where we go beyond the news of the day to bring you one big story. As a journalist, you know, sometimes there are stories that just stick with you. And, you know, I'm certainly not alone in that. Some people, when they're reporting, encounter a story that changes their entire life. And that's what happened to Barbara Bradley Haggerty.

Well, I mean, $25,000, that's a lot of money even today. And I mean, definitely a lot of money back in 1987. So who were these witnesses and what did they have to say?

I mean, I can't imagine waking up to that and being accused of murder. I know.

Yeah, so he was thinking that, well, if I had nothing to do with this, they would just realize they got the wrong person and, you know, things would go back to the way they were, right?

Jim was a former seminarian who found his calling reinvestigating the cases of people who he had thought had been wrongly convicted. So when Jim picked up Barbara's call, she asked him this one question. What's the case that haunts you? Here's how he answered.

Well, I mean, all of this evidence, I mean, it does sound so incriminating, especially because the people knew him and they saying they saw him.

Twenty five percent. So a quarter of the time it's jailhouse informants. Right. For people on death row. Who turn out to be innocent.

I mean, it sounds like human nature, but obviously that's a lot stacked against Ben. You know, you've got the tunnel vision, the jailhouse informants, this reward money. And then we can't ignore the fact that you have power and you have race involved in this as well.

So the worst outcome for Ben. It just seems so wild that based on a few people saying something, you could be convicted of murder.

I mean, obviously, that's a part of how Ben ended up in prison. Can I ask you, did Ben have a decent lawyer?

It did not work. And then Ben ends up in prison. Well, actually, not right away. Oh, okay. Okay. So he didn't end up in prison right away?

More after the break. Stay with us.

At the time, Ben Spencer had been in prison for 30 years. Ben is a Black man, and he was convicted in 1987 of killing a white man in Dallas. Jim believed he was innocent. A judge had even declared him innocent 20 years after the original conviction. But the elected judges on the Texas High Court had disagreed, and so it seemed Ben would spend the rest of his life in prison.

I'm Aisha Roscoe, and this is a Sunday Story from Up First. I always like summer best. You can eat fresh corn from Daddy's garden, and okra, and greens, and cabbage, and lots of barbecue, and buttermilk, and homemade ice cream at the church picnics. These are the words of the great African-American poet, Nikki Giovanni, from her poem, Knoxville, Tennessee.

Today, we bring you this incredible conversation. Do you think about the legacy that you will leave behind?

Oh.

Make sure to follow NPR's Wildcard podcast wherever you listen. This episode of Wildcard was produced by Lee Hale and edited by Dave Blanchard. It was fact-checked by Barclay Walsh and mastered by Robert Rodriguez. The Sunday Story team includes Andrew Mambo, Justine Yan, Jenny Schmidt, and Liana Simstrom. I'm Aisha Roscoe, and this is a Sunday Story from Up First.

We'll be back tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week. Until then, have a great rest of your weekend.

She died earlier this week at the age of 81. Nikki Giovanni was called many things, the poet of the Black Revolution, activist, spoken word artist, cultural icon, children's book author, professor, Christian, radiant voice of Black joy and struggle. To me, she was also an unapologetic truth teller. And some of her words and poems, I could feel them at a molecular level.

That's how much I related to them. Giovanni grew up with an alcoholic, abusive father in a house without indoor plumbing. And while she was never afraid to explore those hardships in her poetry, she also celebrated what was beautiful about community, food, and family. Earlier this year, my colleague and host of the podcast, Wild Card, Rachel Martin, spoke to Nikki Giovanni.

Martin Oliver of Los Angeles, California.

Martin Oliver of Los Angeles, California.

Well, I think that because he has lost a lot and with the Emmys and things like that, I think we should give it to him. I think you're right.

Well, I think that because he has lost a lot and with the Emmys and things like that, I think we should give it to him. I think you're right.

Martin Oliver of Los Angeles, California.

Well, I think that because he has lost a lot and with the Emmys and things like that, I think we should give it to him. I think you're right.