Anastasia Nicolazzi

But there was nothing on his record indicating sexual assault or extreme violence.

Today's story takes us to Beaverton, Oregon, a leafy suburb just a few miles outside of Portland. Beaverton is filled with parks and tree-lined streets that weave through the quiet neighborhoods.

When asked why he fled from police, Gore explained that he was on probation and was concerned he was going to be arrested or returned to his family. But he showed no signs that he knew the real reason he was being questioned by police.

If Gore suspected that the interview had to do with Milana, he wasn't showing it. But as we've always said, a goal in any interview is to keep the subject talking. So investigators moved slowly and deliberately, building rapport as they zeroed in on his timeline for the days leading up to Milana's murder.

So Gore admitted that he knew the 13-year-old, but he denied that there was any romantic relationship between them.

Let's just pause for a second here to note that it's of course not unheard of for teenagers to experiment with alcohol. So we won't even get into where they may have gotten it or that larger discussion about minors and drinking. But we should remember that Milana was only 13 and she was physically small in stature. So any amount of alcohol may well have affected her.

Daniel claimed this was the last time he saw Milana, walking in the rain back towards the shopping center. He also claimed that the next day he even texted her, but she never responded.

Still, he admitted being with Milana on the day of her murder, even to being the last one to see her alive.

And that's exactly what they did. And as they looked for ways to corroborate his story, investigators uncovered a single inconsistency, but one that would turn the entire case upside down.

Despite their suspicions, investigators didn't have direct evidence that Gore was anything more than a friend who had been with Milana on the same day she was believed to have been attacked and killed.

As we have seen before, malls and shopping centers are often full of security cameras, so police can often follow someone's every move, and that was the case here. After leaving the yogurt shop, Milana and Daniel could be seen walking to the bus stop and boarding a bus, just as Gore had told police.

It was about 7.45 p.m. on the night Milana disappeared. But while the cameras lost sight of them, their cell phones offered some chilling details of what happened next. Milana's phone suddenly turned off while Daniels indicated he proceeded into the woods towards his makeshift campsite.

And she was the teenage employee at the yogurt shop.

She also claimed that he appeared to have several scratches on his face and immediately went into the bathroom to call an ex-girlfriend.

They were also still investigating the sexual assault committed against Milana before she was killed. And as part of that, they collected a biological sample from Gore for DNA analysis to compare to evidence collected by the medical examiner.

The samples Gore agreed to provide proved critical to the case against him. The testing resulted in a match. It was Gore's DNA on the boxers that had been recovered and also his DNA recovered from Milana Lee. And we'll leave it at that.

And I definitely look at the case myself as strong at that point, right? But there's never such a thing as I've said, like as a slam dunk. But there's all these pieces of circumstantial evidence that are being stitched together. But, you know, I always have to think like the defense, like what could they say? And they could say that any sexual activity was consensual, right?

To be a successful prosecutor, you need to be disciplined, resilient, and have the ability to think strategically, all attributes which one would learn in the military.

And that something happened to Milana after the two sexes. Parted ways, you know, as a prosecutor, I'd be very comfortable going into court and showing all the pieces that disprove that idea, that there was anything consensual between them and this not equating to a violent crime.

But, you know, as we always say, Scott, you need to guard against the various possibilities that the defense may use if this proceeds to trial.

But before senior deputy DA John Gerhard could even get to trial, he had to first overcome a legal hurdle set in motion by a new law.

And in this case, John was more than prepared to prove that Daniel Gore should be tried as an adult. And in the end, his argument to the court was successful.

And there it was, right out of the gate, the defense made their argument clear. They claimed that Daniel had a consensual sexual encounter with a 13-year-old because it's a statutory sexual assault charge because of her age. But however, even putting that aside for a moment, the defense went on to argue that he did not kill her. And they also relied on that same DNA to try and prove their claim.

Thirteen-year-old Milana Lee and her family had recently immigrated to Beaverton from Kazakhstan. The bright young sixth grader hadn't been in the States very long, but she was already adapting well to life in her new hometown.

And the defense attorney made a big deal of this unidentified DNA, saying, I quote, we know who the killer is. We have his DNA. We just have to find him.

And I also think, look, the defense went with using the pieces that they had. And think about this. They're just injecting, like, to your point, Scott, that bit of doubt, at least hoping that it'll rise to that level of reasonable doubt.

Because also what they're saying is, hey, convict him for this statutory sexual assault, you know, that there's consensual sex, but we also know that it's an age difference thing. So convict him of that. It's a lower level crime, likely a lower sentence as well, but don't convict him for the murder. So I think it's using those things together and hoping they will prevail.

But if Daniel Gore was indeed the person who assaulted, beat, and strangled Milana, the critical question then became why. Was this teenager, even a troubled one, truly capable of this level of violence?

For example, Daniel's musical taste, which was something that was brought up during his questioning.

And as off-putting and terrible as all that sounds, John was in no way suggesting that music could make a killer. But when paired with Daniel's internet search history prior to Milana's death, it started to paint a dark picture.

The prosecution argued that Milana was lured into the woods by the older teen and there was violently assaulted and then strangled to death. The coincidences between her manner of death and his search history were overwhelming, suggesting that her murder may have been an attempt to carry out an extremely dark and violent fantasy.

Which brings us to the early morning of May 9th, 2022. Milana's mom had just returned home from working a night shift at the nearby Nike headquarters, which employed many people in the area. And when she entered the house, she expected to see both her daughters asleep.

Later, that ex-girlfriend would reveal to police what he told her.

John also showed that Gore knowingly tried to cover his tracks after the murder by texting friends about the evening.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

And despite her daughter being a trusted, responsible young woman, she was also at 13 still a child. And so Milana's mom did exactly what most parents would do. She called 911.

I'm Anastasia Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.

And so following protocol, police notified her school's administration, who then shared the news with the students and their families, hoping someone had information as to where Milana might be.

And there, they stumbled on some articles of clothing that her friend recognized as belonging to Milana. They immediately retreated and contacted police.

Westside Linear Park was a popular recreation spot for walking and hiking. But it was also big, with trails winding through some pretty secluded wooded areas. As officers moved deeper into the woods, they kept their eyes peeled for signs of the missing teen.

Raising children can often feel like navigating a minefield of potential dangers. But for all of our modern-day methods for watching over our kids, from cell phones to doorbell cameras and GPS trackers, the risks to their safety never really goes away.

investigators worked their way to the water. And as they lifted the blanket, their worst fears were confirmed. Half submerged in the water was the bruised and battered, unclothed body of 13-year-old Milana Lee. Given her young age, it was as horrific a crime scene that responding officers had ever encountered.

We do want to warn you that the following content contains description of sexual assault and may be triggering for some.

Upon closer look, officers also noticed bruising around her neck, a sign that Milana may have been strangled. Her state of undress suggested the motive.

Figuring out who that person was started with the collection of evidence at the scene. A team of forensic investigators combed the area, searching for any clue, any fragment of evidence that might help piece together Milana's final moments.

Defensive wounds showed clear signs that Milana had tried to fight off her attacker, and her broken fingernails were also carefully examined for possible DNA belonging to her killer.

To answer that question, investigators would need to start building their timeline of her last known whereabouts on the day she disappeared.

But there is a line between taking these healthy risks, the kind that build confidence and resilience, and the kind that, sometimes unknowingly, can lead to emotional, mental, or even physical danger.

According to her cell phone data, Milana had left home in the early evening of Sunday, May 8th, while her mom was still at work. She and her phone then headed in the direction of a local outdoor shopping center where investigators hoped they could track down a witness that maybe would have spotted her there.

So who was with her in those hours before her death? Was it a friend, a killer, or both?

As news spread of the tragedy, friends and strangers alike contributed to a growing memorial of flowers, stuffed animals and candles on the sidewalk adjacent to the park where Milana's body was found.

Investigators' first lead came courtesy of Milana's cell phone location data, which led them to a shopping center not far from her home. And it was there that a young employee at a yogurt shop told police that she had seen Milana on the night police believed she was killed, and she wasn't alone.

The very same wooded area in Westside Linear Park where Milana's body was found.

which was also surprising because how would they have crossed paths? Daniel Gore had supposedly left school and was said to be living in a tent in the woods. While Milana was a middle schooler, living at home, new to the area, when investigators asked Milana's mom about her daughter's friendship with Daniel Gore, she said that she'd never heard of him.

Milana's mother had prided herself in meeting all of her daughter's friends, so it was a shock for her to learn that Milana had been hanging out with this older boy.

This is an off week for Anatomy of Murder, but we thought it would be a great opportunity to use the time to highlight a case where the family is still waiting for answers.

We've talked about the concept of victimology obviously many times before, but that's because that is so important in every investigation. And that's going to be clear here, too, because we're the place that a person's death and that person's life really intersect. That really provides a roadmap to investigators, whether they're trying to figure out motive or even find the killer.

Many of you will not have any idea what this is all about. It was a group called Criss Cross. It's because the two guys are this young hip hop duo. I think they were like 12 and 13 years old when they had their first big hit, Jump Jump, which of course has been going through my head since I first heard them talking about this. And their signature was that they would wear their pants backwards.

And again, they just did it one day for fun when they're trying to figure out how they could stand out. But it became a thing.

And Debra describes her son from the time he was very young as an old soul. He was this quiet kid who preferred the company of adults than often to his peers.

And I thought, what is he using these toothbrushes for? At first, I was like, OK, he's using them for something. He's cleaning something. He's building something. But it was just such this odd thing that he's always just asking his mom for a new toothbrush.

And this hobby was going to guide him into what he decided would be his future career. He wanted to be a mechanic. And so since he wanted that to be his career, he was working towards that. And that's why he decided to start Job Corps in Utah.

I'm Anastasia Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.

There was nothing about him that would seem to compromise him in any way.

And Debra's reaction to them was visceral. No, not my son. And her reason was twofold. One, everything she knew about Anton, none of those things held true or possibilities for him. But that she was also worried that if this is what people were hypothesizing or talking about in the community, that that might also impact the detectives.

And if they thought these things about her son, would they maybe not work as hard?

It is. It's a valid concern, right? Because while I have certainly dealt with my share of these types of cases, and when I say these types, I mean that were gang-related or drug-related or things like that, and I've seen detectives work as hard on those, for sure, as any other case. But I've also seen it go the other way too, right? I mean, that they, for some reason, the result isn't the same.

It isn't the case that they're going to choose to put on the top of the pile. And so for Deborah, she just wanted to make sure that there was nothing that was going to unfairly distract them or dissuade them for trying to figure this out.

The holidays are recently behind us and will soon be ringing in the new year.

You know, I've never heard of a parent doing that before with investigators, at least not like that. You know, just hearing her talk about it, it was just so incredibly powerful. I can say, like, I was stunned by sadness.

And it really showed by what she saw the very next morning. Those same detectives were out on the block, knocking on doors, speaking to people in the street. Were they planning to do that anyway the next day? Maybe. Or was it maybe that when they got up that morning, they remembered those home videos and they are like, we are getting out there right now to get working on this case.

So as a recap, Anton was murdered between 8 and 9 p.m. That's not the middle of the night. It was April. Sunset that day was just a few minutes before 8 p.m. So while it was still nighttime, it wasn't really all that dark. And he was shot, remember, in front of his apartment complex, not in some remote, quiet area.

So there's a strong possibility that there were people out there, which means that there were and are witnesses.

With no answers and no witnesses forthcoming, at least to the police, Deborah decided to take matters into her own hands in the best way she could. So she and friends and family members, they literally took to the streets. It wasn't just with flyers. And yes, they did that to posting them on streetlights and mailboxes and wherever they could. But they literally stood out there with signs.

You can tell by the title that this case is still unfortunately unsolved. But in that spirit of resolution, let's discuss it in hopes that in 2023, they will get that resolution they deserve.

But investigators got nowhere. Just more dead ends. Silence. Another cold case.

Before we hear from the cold case detective who works on this case, which is Detective Jacob Blass, and trust me, he does have keen insight on Anton's case, including new information that we haven't yet told you about. But again, we want to remind you it's an open investigation. And our goal here in AOM is, of course, always honoring the victim and telling their story.

But also in this type of case, it's to get the word out. So here's the basic information for you to remember.

If you have information, whether right now as you're hearing it or later on by the end or at any time at all, you can call the Fremont Police Department at 510-790-6900 or the Silent Witness hotline at 510-494-4856.

But before becoming a member of the Fremont Police, Jacob had very different ambitions.

Of course, all FBI investigators are not what you see on TV, you know, and you need the people that are sitting behind the desk or are working on the computer screens, the accountants that know how to crunch the numbers. But it wasn't exactly what he'd envisioned when he decided to sign up.

But here's something interesting. The call didn't come in as a suspicious death or even a shooting.

While, yes, of course, people hear gunshots. And, of course, at times, you know exactly what it is. But you don't always. You know, for those of you that haven't heard them, they can sound like other things. They can just sound like pop, pop, pop. They can sound like firecrackers. Sometimes it just gets lost in that cityscape noise. And it sounds like, at least for most, that's what happened here.

And also just think of what it was called in for, right? A person unconscious on the ground. This is a city. They are very busy being EMTs and investigators. So are they getting out there in seconds or minutes, like when they hear that there are, like you said, Scott, shot, fired, or someone down a result of some violence? Or is it, again, not taking their time? Maybe it's the wrong way to put it.

You know, I didn't grow up with brothers. I just had one. But it really sounds like what we read about so often. You know, there was that difficulty in that masculinity as they grew. But then that angst soon became a closeness that only brothers can share.

but that those critical moments may have been lost by what the caller knew or didn't know when they placed that call.

And so now that Jacob takes over the role as cold case investigator tasked with this case, he now on his own is going to start by looking deeply into Anton and who he was.

And so there is nothing in Antone's life that is pointing to a motive for murder. So if it isn't about the person, you have to start to look more closely at the place.

Now, let's remember the time that we're talking. We're talking earlier in the 2000s. And so during that time period from 2007 to 2011, the FBI estimated that approximately 13 percent of all homicides annually were gang related. And that was throughout the U.S.

And again, you know, whether it is gang related or not, we hear about cases of mistaken ID all the time. You know, remember we featured one recently on AOM, Elliot Dickerson, wrong place, wrong time. They thought he was someone that had been in a fight. He wasn't. So again, not gang related, but mistaken ID.

You know, the unfortunate thing with these gang rivalries is they really just take this violence to the street at times with no regard about the others, the innocents that get caught up in their melees.

Now, here's a piece of information that adds more credence to the theory that Antone was innocently caught up in the crosshairs of maybe some sort of gang violence. And it has to do with another homicide.

You know, any homicide can create fear in a community and fear of retaliation. But I think when it comes to the potential for it being perpetrated by gangs, there's even more of that.

So knowing all these truths, one of the early things that Jacob did was try to incentivize people to come forward. And here's what he did.

In April 2007, Anton was 19 years old, had just graduated high school. He went to Washington in Fremont, California, and his sights were set on soon heading off to Job Corps in Utah.

And that reward today is up to $60,000. And here's why shining a spotlight on this case or any case like it just might help the investigation. It is because through this podcast and through you hitting play on your phone or wherever you listen to your podcast, it has reach.

It has reach for people who may never have heard about this case before or didn't know Anton's name to now know it and to recognize maybe know how, if they know something, they can help.

What better way to use our off weeks than to highlight previous AOMs that have featured those cases that are still waiting for answers, still waiting for accountability in the crimes.

Well, I don't know that I've ever actually thought to myself about people that are incarcerated listening to podcasts. I mean, it makes perfect sense, right? They have a lot of time on their hands and they have access to computers, which are authorized in law libraries. And I don't know how that works with what they can watch or what they can listen to necessarily.

But it also is not uncommon to hear about cell phones being smuggled in. So people do have a lot of access even when they're inside of prisons and jails.

You know, when we were talking about this case and whether we were going to profile it at all, it doesn't necessarily have all the various legs or twists that we're able to give you on others. But that's exactly why we chose to talk about it today. Because this case, while it needs to be solved for Anton and his family, it represents so many that are out there. And what better platform do we have

then to try to get the word out on those too, to all of you, our AOM community, who have showed that you are like-minded and care as much about these cases and the people impacted as we do.

Tune in next week for another new episode of Anatomy of Murder.

So, what do you think, Chuck?

So, I mean, there was nothing I could do. And it was later that night that Deborah got a call.

So you have police, investigators, onlookers, and they're all in front of this apartment complex that is just swarming. But the one person that wasn't amongst them was Antone. They wouldn't tell me anything.

You know, in the way that Debra is describing this, we've talked about this almost out-of-body experience before here on AOM. And I even think some have used the exact same analogy.

What better way also to start the new year than with victim advocacy and trying to help a family still very much in need. If you or anyone you know has any information about this case, please contact the Fremont, California police. Their info is on our website or contact us here at AOM.

And in certain ways, I've always likened it to this fight or flight response. You know, you're there, it's happening, but your mind can't process it. So it really goes and is distracted by other things.

And so as Deborah and her boyfriend are at the precinct and answering every question that's being put to them, obviously in Deborah's mind, she is just clinging to that hope that her son, who's in the hospital, remember, is still alive.

So Debra and her boyfriend make their way to the hospital as quickly as humanly possible. And when they get there, Debra knows right where to go because she actually worked at the hospital. So she not only knows the layout, but she knows kind of exactly what happens in a situation like this. But this time she's on the other side of the counter.

And the world that Deborah is facing from that moment on, you can really just describe it with one word. Dark. It is dark because her youngest has been taken by homicide. But on top of that, there's just this anger within her from being held back for those hours, answering questions by the detectives while her son was in the hospital, possibly dying.

But in the meantime, it was also important to find out from Kevin's wife, Lisa, if she knew any reason why this George Taylor would have wanted to kill her husband. Because apparently, George was not just a neighbor, but a friend of both Kevin and Lisa James. And so Michelle and her partner intended to find out the answer to that question. But this is where she ran into a bit of a roadblock.

And like Michelle said, you never know how different people are going to react in high-stress moments. But when you've worked a lot of homicide cases, including those initial conversations with family, you sometimes just get that feeling. And you have to trust that feeling or at least follow where it leads.

Which unfortunately also brings into question why Lisa was lying on top of her son and telling him not to get up. It was supposedly to keep him safe after hearing the gunshots, but was it?

But in the meantime, thanks to Lisa's son, investigators did have another very real person of interest, the owner of that 65 Riviera that was seen speeding away from the scene.

But there was one person that Michelle hoped might know a little bit more. And that was the woman George Taylor lived with, Lisa's close friend and neighbor Shelby Harris.

Arguments? No. Shelby also told police that she didn't know of any problems in Lisa and Kevin's marriage, certainly nothing that would precipitate murder. You know Lisa fairly well? Yeah.

And so George Taylor was brought in for questioning, and he agreed to talk to Michelle and explain his whereabouts and his cars on the night of the murder.

But then he went on to claim that on occasion he would buy small quantities of marijuana from Kevin.

Retired detective Michelle Amacone worked in law enforcement for 29 years, 20 of which were spent as a homicide detective in Southern California. And it is no exaggeration to say that she was a trailblazer.

According to Taylor, that was why he had not stayed at Shelby's that night as usual, and why his car might have been seen parked near Kevin's house on the night of his murder.

And you can just imagine, as George is talking and giving all these details about where he was and with whom, that Michelle is just taking it all in. Because like we've said, it's not always the truth that you expect to get from these interviews. Sometimes you're just gathering information that can either be corroborated or proven to be false.

And for those of us that have worked in this line of work, we all know it can be just as valuable.

Things were not looking promising for George Taylor. His car was seen fleeing the scene of a murder. He was clearly lying to police about where he was on the night of the murder. And while Michelle hadn't uncovered any reason why George might have targeted Kevin or any evidence yet that could put him at the scene, she also knew that there was a good chance that he was a flight risk.

And she was wary to let him out of her sight.

And so the detectives return the next day to pay George Taylor a visit in jail and give him another chance to come clean.

The idea here is to see where he goes, who he talks to, and whether he is making any efforts to cover his tracks. But it doesn't exactly go according to plan.

But two weeks after Kevin James' murder, the investigation took a very unexpected turn.

On the night Kevin James was murdered in bed, a 1965 Buick Riviera belonging to George Taylor was spotted in front of the house, making Taylor the prime suspect in Kevin's murder.

According to the girlfriend, Taylor was last seen leaving with two friends, Terrence Bledsoe and Joe Jensen, but she hadn't seen him since.

And according to her, these so-called friends, Terrence and Joe, she knew they were trouble. But the person she feared the most was the person around whom the group seemed to gravitate, Shelby Harris.

The caller was a 12-year-old child. He and his mother were asleep in his bedroom when they were awakened by the sound of multiple gunshots from inside the house.

And now one of those people was missing. George Taylor's mother was convinced that something terrible had happened to her son.

I think I agree. Look, I mean, she definitely seems cooperative. She's offering whatever info she has. So that goes against it. But again, like, as we know, like most things are possible, but if true that she was involved or behind it, it's puzzling. Why? And I think there we have to really think about, well, how could George's disappearance be connected to Kevin's murders?

And just like you talked about there, there's these two distinct paths, I think here too, right? If he was involved, well, then he could be on the run and that would make perfect sense. You don't want to get caught and be held accountable. But, you know, if he's not on the run, but he still committed the crime, could it be that someone was seeking retribution? We know that that happens.

People don't want to leave it to the police. And sometimes they want to get revenge on their own. Or maybe if he did it, I don't know, maybe he wasn't alone. And this way people could or someone could forever keep him quiet.

However, Joe's buddy Terrence Bledsoe proved to be a little more forthcoming.

also claimed he knew nothing about the disappearance of his buddy George Taylor. But as it turned out, his location would not be a mystery for much longer.

George Taylor had been shot once in the back of the head.

A forensic examination would reveal that Taylor was likely killed by a .40 caliber handgun, the same caliber weapon that killed Kevin James.

All detectives could do was keep pulling the thread and see what unraveled. And we'll unravel the rest of this story in part two, so be sure to listen.

Tune in next week for another new episode of Anatomy of Murder. Anatomy of Murder is an AudioChuck original produced and created by Weinberger Media and Fresetti Media.

Sheriff's deputies were the first to arrive. When they entered the primary bedroom, they were met with a horrific scene. Lisa's husband and the 12-year-old's father, Kevin James, was lying lifeless under blankets stained with a massive amount of blood.

This episode was written and produced by Walker Lamond, researched by Kate Cooper, edited by Ali Sirwa, and Philjean Grande. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

The James home was located in a middle-class neighborhood, not an area with a particularly high crime rate. So with the arrival of police on the quiet suburban street, neighbors were understandably alarmed.

I'm Anastasia Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.

So no immediate signs of a break-in, no broken glass, overturned furniture, or rummaged drawers. Nothing out of the ordinary, but in the primary bedroom, that was a different story.

Not only were there no signs of a struggle, it appeared that Kevin had been shot point blank in the head, likely while he was still asleep.

If you're a longtime listener of this show or just a true crime fan in general, you probably can't count the number of times you've heard how DNA or modern forensics have helped solve a crime or catch a killer. So it's sometimes hard to believe just how new most of this science really is.

There were no signs that Kevin ever had a chance to defend himself or pose any threat at all to the shooter, so the theory that he might have surprised a home invader in the act of a robbery seemed unlikely.

By all accounts, Kevin was an easygoing family man with no enemies. And so far, the crime scene itself was not offering investigators any clues about who might have wanted him dead.

And so Lisa had fallen asleep in the same room of her 12-year-old son. But shortly before 11, she had woken up in a panic.

Not only had no one come in through the sliding door, there was no sign anyone could have accessed the second floor at all.

But, you know, let's think about what Lisa says. Like, yes, on its face, it doesn't sound likely with the things that were observed by Michelle and the other investigators. But again, having seen it many times, I have to say that when people panic at times, they can lose that focus, especially after hearing gunshots. In a few moments, she realizes her husband is dead.

Like, there is so much going on. At least temporarily, it could have been a blur, you know. But here, there was another witness in the house that was able to give police his account of that night. And that was Lisa and Kevin's 12-year-old son. And as you can hear in the 911 call, he demonstrated remarkable composure and maturity when talking with the police.

And that continued when he was interviewed by Michelle.

He did. She laid on top of him. Then they both heard the unmistakable sound of three gunshots in quick succession from inside the house. But while his mother's account ended with what she heard, this young boy was able to also tell police what he saw.

And the answer? What we often describe as old school detective work. Gathering facts, building a timeline, and speaking with people. Witnesses, sometimes over and over, until the potential lies are exposed and the truth shakes out.

The car was a distinctive 1965 Buick Riviera, a one-of-a-kind vintage car that was even customized to be heard from blocks around.

But he was able to confirm that whoever he saw running from their house towards the car, he wasn't alone.

This was just the first thread in a tangled web of lies, betrayal, manipulation, and murder.

Moments later, incredibly, his 12-year-old son spotted a man running from the house and getting into a car impossible not to recognize, an enormous, customized 1965 Buick Riviera.

The name Darlene Fisher was not just unknown to law enforcement, it didn't turn up anywhere. No car registrations, no social media, nothing.

And thanks to the Amber Alert and the resulting media attention on the case, they were getting other leads as well.

It turned out that Bobbie Jo was a popular and prolific poster on Ratter Chatter, which she used not just to generate business, but to share her love of terriers, dog breeding, and even more personal aspects of her life.

But when investigators traced that user's account information, it actually led to the residence of a man named Kevin Montgomery.

This Lisa Montgomery had asked the woman in Georgia to teach her 13-year-old daughter to show dogs. And they had actually struck a deal to do that. But here is where the strange part came in.

Along with preparing for the arrival of their first child, Bobby Joe was also the proud proprietor of Happy Haven Farms, a dog breeding business she and Zeb ran from home that specialized in rat terriers.

It was a major break in the search for Bobby Joe Stinnett's killer and the possible location of her kidnapped infant daughter.

Investigators had always suspected that the woman who messaged Bobbie Jo Stinnett the day before her murder had used a fake name and email. But this Darlene Fisher made the mistake of not masking her IP address, which was traced back to a house in Melbourne, Kansas.

And since this was now an abduction that had potentially crossed state lines, the FBI was called in to assist.

In the approximately 48 hours since the murder, this had understandably already become a high-profile case, and the FBI agents were advocating for a bit more caution.

At the sound of the dogs barking, Kevin Montgomery came out of the house and met investigators on the front porch.

And let's just set the scene. Randy was confident that the person who arranged to meet Bobby Joe to see her dogs was also the person that had killed her. And that person's email was traced right back to this address.

This was first and foremost a recovery mission, so Randy's instinct was to first check on the baby's condition.

With their first baby on the way, a daughter, Bobbie Jo, sometimes worried that if she went into labor or there was some type of emergency, Zeb wouldn't make it back in time. But thankfully, Bobbie Jo's mother lived nearby and had always promised to be just a phone call away.

It was at that point that Randy began to think that maybe Kevin had no idea why the police were in his house, but that maybe his wife, Lisa, did.

Because again, they're accomplishing more than one thing here. Like by just getting her to say anything, well, let her talk. And if she's telling the truth, they'll figure that out. And if she's lying, well, then they can use her words to prove it. They're also separating two people that as while he's thinking maybe Kevin doesn't know, they don't know it.

You know, Scott, as I'm even hearing Randy talk about this, it really strikes me at this point like that chess match where each step is hopefully getting them closer to success. to where they want to get, which is going to be checkmate to figure out who did this and pull together the case.

Randy's gut told him that the woman on the couch was Bobby Joe's killer. And the baby she was holding was not her own.

With the baby safely in the hands of law enforcement, Randy led the woman outside and towards his car.

Randy then asked Lisa Montgomery to get out of the cold and sit in his car. He hoped that the longer he kept her talking, the closer he would get to the truth.

Bobbie Jo assured her mom that she would be there and then said that she had to jump off the phone because someone had arrived at the house who was interested in buying a puppy.

Then Randy got an assist from an unlikely source as a car pulled up into the driveway.

At that point, the clock was still ticking, not just because it was important to try and keep her talking, but also because Randy suspected that the reporters might be right behind them and their presence would only complicate, even jeopardize, an arrest.

And the conversation they would soon have would reveal the disturbing truth about Bobby Joe's murder. By the time Detective Randy Strong sat down with Lisa Montgomery, he had plenty of suspect interviews under his belt. But even he knew that this was a special case.

And eventually that perseverance and those cigarettes, they paid off.

But as she approached, she noticed that despite the cold winter afternoon, the front door of the small craftsman-style house was wide open. And when she called out to Bobby Joe, there was no answer.

Montgomery had gotten directions to Bobby Joe's house off the internet, and she took blacktop highways to avoid towns where she might be spotted and recognized.

Randy described Montgomery's demeanor as eerily calm and devoid of emotion when she described what she did next.

She then graphically described how she took the unborn child literally from Bobby Joe's body and then carried the baby girl from the house. Montgomery then fled the scene in the direction of her home in Kansas, more than a two-hour drive away. But she did make a stop along the way.

It was about as full and disturbing as a statement like this can get. Lisa Montgomery had not just admitted to premeditated murder and kidnapping. She had admitted to carrying out a crime so heinous, so inhuman, it was almost unthinkable.

Apparently convinced that his wife had been pregnant for the last nine months, Kevin Montgomery did not question the sudden arrival of a new baby, or, while somewhat baffling, the absurdity of meeting that new baby in the parking lot of a chain restaurant instead of a hospital.

She found her daughter lying on the floor of a small back bedroom. There was a lot of blood. As she rushed to her daughter's side, it was difficult to understand exactly what she was seeing. But it appeared that Bobby Joe had suffered a catastrophic injury to her abdomen.

You know, Scott, obviously for anyone, us included, hearing this, it's one of those things that your head is like flipping around like over and over because you just can't even believe that this is horrendously true. Like there's obviously much more going on here, you know, whether it is mental health component or some motive that has not yet become clear.

You know, when I'm looking at this as a prosecutor, it's like, well, did she know what she was doing is wrong, right? Because that is the criteria for holding someone accountable for their actions. And here, look, I mean, she faked the legitimacy of birthing a child, and then she continued to lie to law enforcement. And as you've said, like, you know, multiple times in this

Like it was so pre-planned and that all goes against some sort of total mental break with reality, albeit horribly puzzling.

DNA testing eventually confirmed the baby's identity as Bobbie Jo and Zeb's daughter. The infant was returned to her father, miraculously physically unharmed except for a small cut above her eye, a cut that doctors say was caused by the killer's blade.

We do know that Montgomery was on the Ratter Chatter message board and followed along as Bobbie Jo discussed her experience as an expectant mother. But was there any other reason to target her in particular?

Apparently, in the week prior to the homicide, Montgomery's ex-husband had filed for custody of their teenage children that had been living with their mother.

Out of respect for Bobbie Jo and her family, we've chosen not to play the recording of that call, as it is particularly graphic and distressing. Randy Strong, who was at the police station that afternoon, was there when first responders were dispatched to the scene.

It was an elaborate and outrageous lie that would ultimately lead to a horrendous act of murder and all the terrible rest as you've heard it, all to keep from getting exposed.

A forensic search of her computer also uncovered internet searches related to how to perform a cesarean section, how to register birth certificates from a home birth, and the location of nearby birthing clinics.

And if that wasn't enough, there was also the DNA that was still found on Montgomery's own hands.

At her subsequent trial, prosecutors argued that Montgomery's actions were calculated and deliberate, driven by her desperation to maintain her fabricated pregnancy story.

On January 13, 2021, Lisa Montgomery was executed by lethal injection in the U.S. Penitentiary in Terre Haute, Indiana, becoming the first woman executed by the federal government in 67 years.

It's been just over 20 years since the horrible day since Bobbie Jo's daughter lost her mom, and almost her own life before it had even begun. But she has never forgotten the efforts of the many people that came to her rescue and fought for justice for her mother.

I'm Anastasia Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.

Scott and I debated whether we would cover this case. Could we discuss it without being overly graphic in this already extremely disturbing crime? But we decided that Bobbie Jo lost her life in this most terrifying and brutal of ways. And remembering her is exactly why we would cover it, but hopefully as carefully as we could. Bobbie Jo is so excited to be a new mom.

She was loved by her husband, her family, her friends. The crime committed against her is unexplainable. We're so thankful that law enforcement was able to save her infant daughter and allow her to grow up surrounded by her dad and true family. She lost her mom even before she was actually born. Bobbie Jo, we remember you today for who you were and the mother you were getting ready to be.

And to your daughter, husband, and family, we hope you are well and continue to feel Bobbie Jo's love from above. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? I approve!

But incredibly, that was not the full extent of this shocking tragedy. The paramedic on scene reported that the umbilical cord attached to Bobbie Jo's womb had been severed. and her baby was missing.

Needless to say, Bobby Joe's injuries were severe and horrific. But they also told a story.

Before we begin, we just wanted to let you know that today's story includes some particularly disturbing content and graphic details.

Even veteran homicide investigators were struck by both the shocking violence of this murder and the urgency of the situation.

In December of 2004, an almost unthinkable crime occurred in the tiny town of Skidmore, Missouri.

The brutal murder left Bobbie Jo's family and the community in utter shock. The motive, while deeply disturbing, was clear. Someone murdered Bobbie Jo to kidnap her unborn child.

And they immediately began by looking for any witnesses that may have seen who had been at the Stinnett's house that afternoon.

But the sheriff was determined to use all means available to find this baby. And an Amber Alert remained a priority. With precious seconds ticking and a young life potentially on the line, the sheriff had no patience for the protocol.

With a population of less than 300, Skidmore, Missouri is what you might imagine when you hear the words Small Town, USA.

Named for Amber Hegerman, a nine-year-old abducted in Texas in 1996, the Amber Alert system has helped to recover thousands of missing or abducted children with the help of the public and the media. It's kind of like a full-court press that can pay immediate dividends, but can also have another effect, turning a small-town tragedy into a national headline.

The crime scene itself was beyond disturbing. It was unlike anything these investigators had ever seen before.

So the presumption would be that either Bobbie Jo knew or was expecting her attacker, but whoever that person was, he or she left very few clues at the scene.

Shortly after that call, Bobby Joe's mom called her again to confirm the ride home. But instead of Bobby Joe, she got the answering machine. And this was one of those machines where you would have been able to hear the incoming message being played on the speaker while it was being recorded. So now as investigators listened, they heard the recorded message from Bobby Joe's mom.

According to her husband, Zeb, he didn't have a record of who might have made the appointment. But since most of her business was conducted online, that information surely would be found somewhere on his wife's computer.

As you can hear from Randy's description, investigators were trying not to get tunnel vision and were leaving open the possibility that this person could have just been a witness, not necessarily the killer. But Randy also had a gut feeling that there was something off about that name and that email.

One of the risks of trying to extract DNA from a sample of biological evidence like a hair, a spot of blood, or in this case, semen, is that you have to use up some of that sample in order to test it.

That news was a hard pill to swallow. But it wasn't the last of the challenges his cold case investigation would face.

The DNA testing was on hold. The bullet that killed her was missing. But taking a cue from Vicki's own family, John deployed one of a detective's most effective weapons, patience.

That DNA profile was then entered into CODIS. And within days, the computer had returned a result that was now 43 years in the making.

Vicki went on to become the first person in her family to graduate from college. And by 1979, when she was 28 years old, she had a promising career.

A deep dive into Taylor's background revealed a long criminal history, including a murder charge for fatally shooting a man during an armed robbery in Washington.

But here's the thing, like DNA is fantastic. I mean, it is amazing evidence, prosecutors, investigators, we all love it for the obvious reasons. But here's what DNA doesn't give you. It doesn't tell you when it was placed or left there, right? So if I'm the defense, I'm going to say, if this is a case, like, hey, this is all coincidence. It doesn't equal proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

Like, did they know each other? Was this a consensual interaction between them? Was evidence tainted? Was there transfer? You know, there's multiple possibilities here. for the defense. So like for me, when I'm hearing it, it's just always the important reminder that yes, you can place a specific individual to the item.

So yes, he's going to be linked to Vicky through this DNA, but that is far from all the work that investigators need to do. But as you and I both know, Scott, it is a fantastic start. And Vicky's family, like they had waited for 43 years for any good news in regards to her murder investigation. And now finally, John could deliver.

And while Taylor had been in and out of the criminal justice system for years, there was no record of a fixed address since 2019. So investigators really didn't know if he was still in the area.

But this is where it helped to have the nation's capital as your next-door neighbor. John was able to call in a few favors from the federal government to help him track Taylor down.

It's safe to say that Taylor was not expecting visitors, nor did the nursing home staff know that they were harboring a suspected killer.

And as a member of that county's cold case squad, John was also an integral part of not just keeping Vicki's story alive, but helping to write its stunning conclusion.

And getting that flat denial was huge because just having Taylor's DNA present on Vicky's clothing did not necessarily mean he was the person who had assaulted her. If he claimed to have known her, however unlikely, he could also have claimed that their encounter was consensual.

On June 22nd, 2023, with an assist from the U.S. Marshals and the D.C. Metro Police, deputies from Charles County returned to Taylor's nursing home.

The investigation had required an infinite amount of patience. And with the finish line in sight, John knew that this was not the time to rush their conversation.

Here is a portion of the actual interview.

Taylor denied having anything to do with Vicki's murder. But as the interview went on, he did start to allow for the possibility that he had in fact been in contact with her.

And what about the possibility that back in 1979, Taylor had known Vicki, even briefly? We know that her boyfriend James had gotten mixed review from friends, and Vicki had left work for a long lunch break on the day she was killed. Was it possible that she was also involved in another relationship outside of dating her boyfriend?

As the interview stretched into its second hour, investigators pressed him for the truth. Instead, Taylor offered up a shocking confession, at least of sorts.

And you know, Scott, I have to say here, like when I was hearing this and thinking about this, just having had similar defenses multiple times over the years, like I always thought to this myself of what I would term like a ghost offense. A defendant would make up this mystery person, yet there was zero other evidence, even of their existence usually. So they're not an identifiable person.

According to her boyfriend, James, who also worked at the Department of Agriculture. Vicki wanted to use his car to run some errands during her lunch break, and so she stopped by his desk on her way out.

And by no coincidence, to me, it was always the ghost that did all the acts that were criminally subscribed to the suspect, what he was being accused of. So here, even though he is talking about this sexual encounter, which would still be sexual assault, non-consensual by the way he's describing it. To him, it's the murder that he's trying to keep himself a part of.

And yet right here, like it's this mystery person who must have done all that.

And as we know, it absolutely would be stepping over the line, although I think that he thinks he just got himself out of the murder. But again, if you're involved in certain felonies and sexual assault is absolutely one of them, if someone is killed during the course of that felony or soon thereafter, that is felony murder.

So that's exactly the type of thing that John and any other investigator who is working these type of cases knows that you just need to keep them talking and then you can ferret out the truth from what they say, at least hopefully.

From the prosecution's side, Taylor's DNA, coupled with Vicky's state of undress when she was discovered murdered, led to the only reasonable conclusion in this case that she was sexually assaulted and then killed. But in a case dating back over four decades, the trial would have significant challenges.

On the day Vicki disappeared, the main witness who could testify to her whereabouts and timeline was her boyfriend, James. But by 2023, he had passed away.

The co-worker's name was Mary Hickson, and assuming she was of similar age to Vicki, she would likely have been about 73 years old.

During the trial, Mary testified about Vicki's movements on the last day she was alive.

Taylor was found guilty on all charges. And while he never made a full confession or allocution of his crimes, the combination of evidence and witness testimony helped paint a compelling picture of a brutal picture of Vicki's last fateful day alive.

According to co-workers, Vicki had never returned from her lunch break. And while this was the age before cell phones, and it was not unheard of to be out of touch for a few hours, it was completely out of character for Vicki, who was known to be both reliable and punctual.

But her family also expressed relief and gratitude for justice finally being achieved after 45 years. Vicki's murder had obviously affected all of them, her parents, siblings, her son, and even the grandsons she had never had a chance to meet.

Shortly after the arrest, Vicki's relatives gathered at the Charles County Sheriff's headquarters for a press conference. Among them was a sister that is a retired homicide detective from California, a brother who was a retired firefighter, a nephew who was a police officer in Texas, and her then 51-year-old son, a lawyer and former federal prosecutor from Georgia.

In the shadow of tragedy, they had dedicated their own lives to service and the pursuit of public safety and justice.

I went onto their website before recording this episode and was moved by the photograph of all the backpacks being donated as part of one of their latest initiatives. Think how important a simple backpack can be to a child who otherwise perhaps cannot afford one.

You can learn more about Vicki, the foundation, or donate by going to their website, the Vicki Belk Foundation at vickibelkfoundation.org. You can also find the link on the AOM website page connected to this story. In July 2024, Vicki's sister Judy wrote a message to the young people receiving support from the foundation and to those that help keep the foundation moving forward.

And I quote, Congratulations to all the 2024 VBS recipients and to the donors who continue to keep Vicki's legacy alive. And to this AOM community, we say, by learning about Vicki and her story, you too are all helping to keep Vicki's memory and her legacy alive.

By the next morning, Vicki still hadn't shown up at either his home in Maryland or her family's home in Virginia. So James decided it was time to call police and report her missing.

Tune in next week for another new episode of Anatomy of Murder. Anatomy of Murder is an AudioChuck original. Produced and created by Weinberger Media and Fresetti Media.

This episode was written and produced by Walker Lamond. Researched by Kate Cooper. Edited by Ali Sirwa and Philjean Grande. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? No!

Bad relationship could suggest that maybe Vicki had left on her own accord. But a bad relationship could also suggest a possible motive. And an obvious first suspect if Vicky had indeed fallen victim to foul play.

But not only were there no signs of Vicky, there were also no indications that James was hiding something. Coworkers could vouch for his whereabouts the previous day, and his concern for his girlfriend seemed genuine.

Two days after Vicki was reported missing, her case would take a dramatic and tragic turn.

The unidentified woman had suffered a single gunshot wound to the head, and by her positioning and state of undress, it appeared that she had also likely been sexually assaulted.

the woman in the woods was positively identified as Vicki Lynn Belk. Two weeks earlier, she'd been the maid of honor in her sister's wedding. Now the family would be gathering for her funeral.

During the autopsy, examiners were able to recover the bullet that had killed her and confirmed that Vicky had been sexually assaulted. And while DNA testing was not possible, detectives knew that any biological evidence of either the sexual assault or the murder would be crucial down the road.

I'm Anastasia Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.

The same afternoon Vicki was located, her boyfriend's car was found abandoned in southeast D.C., not too far from where it had been parked in the RFK lot. The car was searched and fingerprinted, but it yielded no clues to who might be behind Vicki's brutal murder.

And so, you know, Scott, just talking about the timeframe, again, and the limitations of that era, we're in the 1970s, far from all the technological advancements we have today. It really came down to what, you know, we call that gumshoe police work. Canvases, having to use the...

basic tools of investigation, fingerprints, things like that, which as you and I know, even though we have so many advancements today, most work and very often it still relies on that good old fashioned knocking on doors and talking to people.

And so police had those conversations. And according to Vicky's friends and family, she was the last person to have any enemies or even associate with anyone that might want to do her harm. So investigators really did ultimately have very few leads.

The pain and trauma that a violent crime inflicts on a victim's family can be not just life-changing, but multi-generational in its lasting impact.

Over the next two decades, the Washington, D.C. area would experience a dramatic increase in its homicide rate, and Vicki's family worried that her murder would be buried under the pile of unsolved murders that was growing every year.

When 28-year-old Vicki Lynn Belk, who was also the mother of a young son, was murdered in 1979, police were left with very few clues to who was responsible.

The case went cold for years. But detectives in Maryland never gave up hope that one day her murder would be solved.

Over the previous 30 years, Vicki's family had never given up hope that police would one day have the evidence to find her killer and bring him to justice. And the fact that her case was being reopened was welcome news.

Whether that means becoming a victim's advocate, starting a charitable organization, becoming a police officer, or even going to law school, sometimes surviving can also mean thriving.

But as we know, DNA science, especially 20 years ago, was not a magic wand. It took time, resources and expertise that were often in short supply. And that was the case in Maryland.

Most people that knew Ernie saw a dedicated and hardworking young dad who was working two jobs to support his family. One at a wooden bat manufacturer and another covering the night shift at Little Caesars. But police also knew that given Ernie's past, he was not unfamiliar with the darker side of Titus County.

But remember, there was a good reason to believe that Ernie knew his attackers, or at least they knew him. Because according to Samantha, they referred to him by name and to his father, Big Ernie.

But there was no sign of Ernie or his kidnappers at either his father's home or grandfather's house, and neither was able to offer any clue to Ernie's whereabouts.

Along with taking care of the kids, Samantha hosted a YouTube channel where she mostly posted makeup tutorials and beauty tips.

But recently, her videos had gotten more personal and more popular as she shared details of her home life, her marriage, and the challenges of raising five kids.

In fact, not long before she'd filed a complaint with local police after a recent argument, accusing Ernie of being physical with her. However, no charges were ever filed against him.

But, you know, I'm sitting here listening to what she is posting on YouTube. You're still married, but you're talking about the difficulties in your marriage. Now, there's one thing to talk about things openly and try to support other people and this online community. But you also start to wonder, is she starting to paint a purposeful picture? And I don't know.

Ernie's family often struggled to make ends meet, and it hadn't been easy in various ways, including when his dad spent some time in prison. So you can imagine how gaming could provide an escape from those often painful realities of everyday life.

I think I can see this going both ways because we just don't know if her claims about Ernie, whether they were true or untrue.

She took a nap. Not exactly what you'd expect from the grieving and traumatized wife of a man who had recently been kidnapped and who had five young kids in the mix, and not with her at present. Those kids alone, you'd think, and would hope would cause audible concern.

By the time she was interviewed by investigators, Samantha once again found herself in the center of the spotlight.

Up to this point, Samantha had denied recognizing any of the men who tied her up and abducted her husband. But now she was being asked to speculate.

Samantha had met Sanford through her friend, Charla, and even knew exactly where they both were at that very minute.

And from there, in response, Samantha started naming names, revealing that she may know one or more of the men involved in the abduction of her husband.

As for Samantha, she was attempting to distance herself from Sanford and the assault against her husband. In this recorded audio, you can hear how quickly her demeanor has changed from being defiant, almost bored, to being this tearful, scared informant.

At the sheriff's office, Sanford seemed to know that the jig was up and was surprisingly cooperative, quickly admitting his relationship with Samantha and the fact that he had been to her and Ernie's home.

That's the voice of David Cauley, who in 2015 was a newly hired assistant DA in Titus County, Texas. His first year on the job would be what is sometimes referred to as a baptism by fire, as he would soon find himself embroiled in one of the darkest and most senseless crimes of his entire career.

Sanford proceeded to lead the other men inside. But according to him, the planned beating quickly got out of hand.

The three men put Ernie's unconscious body into the back of Samantha's truck. Considering the viciousness of the beating and the attacker's lack of mercy, the ending seemed inevitable.

It was only then that detectives in Titus County could confirm that Ernie Ibarra was deceased and the cause of death was homicide.

While in custody, Sanford and Ponce confessed to their roles in the crime, detailing how they, along with Rimes, coordinated and carried out the attack on Ernie Ibarra. So, you know, Scott, you have to kind of come back first to Samantha here. You know, is it possible that she's telling the truth, you know, from the beginning that she had nothing to do with her husband's murder?

But all I can think about when I even ask myself that question is like, why would these guys do this but for her?

But yet to me, it just kind of defies common sense, right? Like why they would do this but for her. But I definitely agree that her not giving it to investigators right away could absolutely, whether she's in it or not, could be partially thinking about herself, not only repercussions with the police, but at the hands of these guys.

Samantha continued to deny having any role in the plot to kill her husband. But there was one thing she had not counted on, the digital evidence she had left behind on her cell phone.

The masked men had dragged both of them from bed, beaten Ernie severely, and then abducted him from the house, all while their five children were sleeping just a few feet away.

According to Sanford, the initial plan did not actually include the home invasion.

Even after her husband was beaten, kidnapped, and shot to death, her cell phone records show that she made efforts to assist the perpetrators in concealing the crime, further proof that she was complicit in the murder.

All four suspects would eventually be charged with aggravated kidnapping and murder, with Walford facing additional charges due to her role in planning Ernie's death.

In two separate trials, Octavius Rimes was convicted and sentenced to 23 years for aggravated kidnapping in Titus County and an additional 75 years for murder in Camp County.

During his testimony, Jonathan Sanford recounted the cold-blooded execution of Ernie Ibarra, all the while careful to blame Jose Ponce with pulling the trigger.

Walford continued to maintain her innocence and ultimately decided to take a specific approach to avoiding blame.

As for her motive, we can only speculate, but testimony from several witnesses revealed that this may not have even been the first time Walford had tried to put her plan into action.

Multiple witnesses also came to Ernie's defense against her allegations of abuse.

A jury found Samantha Walford guilty of murder and sentenced her to 99 years in prison on top of a 50-year sentence for kidnapping.

His loss was made especially painful because it sadly also meant the loss of her grandchildren as well.

Murder causes such pain in so many ways. Ernie Ibarra didn't have an easy start, but had landed in a place where he was happy, and all he wanted was to care for his family, his children, and work hard at his two jobs to provide for them. Rather than end the marriage, if that's what she wanted to do, his wife orchestrated his assassination.

At the hands of his killers, she took Ernie from this earth and from all five of their kids. Their lives will be impacted forever. We hope that they are well and are being wrapped in love as they continue to heal. We will be off next week, but Anatomy of Murder will be back the following week with an all-new episode.

The young mother of five described to the dispatcher what sounded like an incredibly terrifying ordeal.

I'm Anastasia Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.

a brutal home invasion in the middle of the night while their children slept. It's a scenario right out of a parent's worst nightmares.

The men then proceeded to drag a barely conscious Ernie from the house to Samantha's truck before taking her keys and driving off to parts unknown. Miraculously, the couple's children were left unharmed.

It's no secret that people all across the world are spending more and more of their time online for all sorts of reasons.

After confirming Samantha was not in need of immediate medical attention, officers asked her to describe the intruders as best she could. Mount Pleasant was a small town, and there was a good chance that the men, and her husband, had not gotten far.

Her description of the men wasn't much to go on, and while typically officers would start canvassing the neighborhood, looking for both possible suspects and witnesses, in this case, that would prove difficult.

And so in those first moments of the investigation, law enforcement just had Samantha's version of the events to go on. But even early on, detectives were starting to suspect that Samantha was not being totally truthful about what had happened. There was something off about her answers and her demeanor that didn't quite fit with an actual victim of such a horrific crime.

there were other signs that also indicated that Samantha's story wasn't quite adding up.

There was also the matter of how Samantha had managed to call her mother on her cell phone while she was still bound and gagged and why she didn't just call 911.

And many can understand the appeal. Becoming an Instagram influencer or the hero in a video game can offer an escape from our normal lives, letting us become a very different version of ourselves with little or no repercussions.

In the early hours of February 20th, 2015, 29-year-old Ernie Ibarra was awoken by masked men, beaten and then abducted from his home outside Mount Pleasant, Texas.

But there was also something a little off about her behavior. And some details of the crime scene just didn't line up with her version of the assault. You know, Scott, there really are a bunch of things here that we can talk about. You know, one thing, the way the police right away were questioning about the entry.

But I just thought it was so interesting that apparently these guys just come in and know exactly where to go. And it's not like we're talking about a one level, you know, three room house. Like they had to go up kind of an intricate entryway upstairs. But apparently they found their targets right away.

And there is one other thing that we'd just be remiss not to mention is like her dialing her phone. Remember, they find her with her mouth gagged, yet you don't hear anything from the 911 caller. I think it was her mom talking about her voice being muffled or anything. It just seems like almost like a contortionist move, just bizarre.

And then there was also this, which in some ways is the most disturbing of it all. The whole time she was recounting the details of her husband's violent abduction, she never once checked on her five young kids, who were all still asleep in their room right next to where the intruders had supposedly snatched Samantha and Ernie from their beds.

Ernie Ibarra was born on Christmas Day 1985 in Mount Pleasant, Texas, a town about a two-hour drive from Dallas and not far from the borders with Oklahoma and Arkansas.

So obviously, Samantha's behavior was raising some eyebrows. But for at least the immediate aftermath of this home invasion and abduction, at least until proven otherwise, she was still a victim. So investigators had to put her suspicious behavior aside and act on the little information that they had and the very real possibility that Ernie had been abducted and his life was in danger.

The two detectives asked to take a tour of the house with Henry leading the way.

The more time the detective spent with Henry, the more he seemed to have a strange take on his relationship with Cassandra. Because according to 53-year-old Henry, it was never a romantic relationship at all.

And again, Scott, that term you always use, like BRF, big red flag. If concerned, why not call the police or at least notify her family that he was worried that she wasn't planning to come back? Like something definitely does make you sit up from the second you hear it.

And again, during this conversation, it is now the end of June 2018. And at this point, Cassandra's been missing for nearly five months. Detectives have strong suspicions that her partner Henry knows much more than he's telling them. But they also still can't discount the idea that she had been planning on leaving Henry and maybe leaving their one-year-old daughter at home.

There was also internet searches made on Cassandra's phone that indicated she was looking into ways that she could add Henry's name to her daughter's birth certificate to make him financially responsible to care for their child. She was even searching for local hotels and had sent messages asking a friend to send her $300 via PayPal.

In short, she was making plans, maybe plans that she was stopped from carrying out.

Chad hoped that these two colleagues could help piece together a part of the story, or at least help corroborate Henry's version of events. Chad started with Henry's female colleague.

So Henry had revealed to this partner of five years that he was not only having a relationship with another woman, but that he was the father of her child.

Nadina couldn't offer any insight into what else may have happened on February 1st. She hadn't known Cassandra even existed, so she couldn't provide any information about her possible whereabouts. But Chad hoped that Henry's other business partner, a man named Julian, might have had more information to share.

Which means Cassandra may have been missing for over four months. So you can imagine why her family was overwhelmed with fear and worry that something terrible had happened to her. and why her case would have been forwarded to detectives in major crimes. Another reason for concern? Cassandra was a new mother who had left behind a one-year-old baby daughter.

And why was this important? Because supposedly Henry wasn't allowed to open bank accounts due to his federal probation and financial misdemeanors. So Julian had opened some for him and he'd acquired property on Henry's behalf too.

During their search for Cassandra, detectives had now stumbled on evidence of a money laundering scheme. But in addition to painting a clearer picture of Henry Steiger and his criminal background, it also gave them good reason to obtain a search warrant for his property. Whether that search would also reveal clues about Cassandra's fate was still unknown.

And it's all about Chad's background, which is obviously unrelated to a missing persons or any potential murder investigation. And it just shows how all these things that you may not even realize how they can really help connect dots and move investigations forward, how they can be utilized. Like it's Chad's experience in white collar crime that really now started to help move things quickly.

So a thorough search warrant execution often takes a really long time. I mean, it can take, on the quick end, many hours, working methodically around the room, looking inside everything. And one officer, while doing that, was searching the garage, made a huge find.

a packed suitcase filled with items belonging to Cassandra. Evidence that maybe she was planning a trip, but that she never reached her destination.

As for Henry Steiger, he was not exactly doing the kinds of things typical, at least for an innocent man.

The detectives' hunch about Steiger skipping town were right. At his residence, they found packed suitcases by the front door.

In the meantime, another detective had begun building a picture of all the other known associates of Henry Steiger that he may have contacted to help him make his escape from Pensacola. And what they found was that Henry enjoyed a hobby of beekeeping, and he had a friend in the beekeeping world named William Shelby Johnson.

The interview didn't last long with the friend offering up a little help. But shortly after being escorted out of the building, Henry's buddy made a quick beeline back to the station.

It is a smell all too familiar for those in the field that can signal the arrival of a critical turn in an investigation, often with the most tragic results.

The forensic pathologist would later determine that the cause of death was homicidal violence of undetermined means. In short, she had been murdered. And her body was stored in a place where someone hoped she'd never be found.

Detectives began their questioning by asking Steiger again about his relationship with Cassandra, keeping the discovery of her body a secret, at least for the time being.

But after allowing Steiger to go on about his, quote, normal relationship with Cassandra, they changed gears and asked Steiger about his friend William, the beekeeper, and the trailer in his yard.

Henry didn't show it, but he had to have been thinking that with the mention of the trailer, his lies had finally caught up with him. Because all of a sudden, Steiger seemed much less chatty.

the story he concocted next was not only hard to believe, it also began to reveal the true depths of Steiger's duplicity and depravity.

According to Steiger, he had arrived home to find Cassandra in the bathroom, having taken her home life supposedly by using a ligature around her neck. Steiger claimed that then in a panic, he had set about concealing Cassandra's death and her body.

Massour first revealed the source of those large amounts of cash. It turned out that he and Steiger's coffee business was nothing more than a front for a cocaine smuggling scheme. As for Cassandra's death, he had information about that, too.

Now, according to her sister, Cassandra had faced some challenges in her short life. She was just 25 years old, but had struggled at times with her mental health. And that had played a part in the delay in raising the alarm because it wasn't the first time that Cassandra had gone off the radar for a bit. But this time it felt different.

An extended vacation. Steiger was then soon arrested for the murder of Cassandra Robinson. And a year after the investigation first began, the trial started. And a jury was asked if they would believe the prosecutor's evidence that Henry had murdered Cassandra on the day of their daughter's birthday, or Henry's version, that Cassandra had suffered from depression and had taken her own life.

For Chad, it's a case he'll never forget. Not the least of which because of that little girl, Cassandra's one-year-old child. The girl who ultimately lost her mother and father on her first birthday.

Murder. Here, one life lost and another forever altered. Cassandra was killed in her one-year-old child deprived of her biological mom. Every loving parent wants their child to be loved and to thrive. So I think we should end where Cassandra would likely have wanted us to, on her daughter. Cassandra loved her little girl.

And that had everything to do with Cassandra's precious new baby girl. She could not imagine a scenario where Cassandra would have ever left her daughter behind.

And to hear that she's being cared for, loved, and thriving, that is everything every parent, especially in their absence, would want. Cassandra, your love for your daughter will forever be part of who she is. And let's all hope that she will forever continue to thrive. Tune in next week for another new episode of Anatomy of Murder. Anatomy of Murder is an AudioChuck original.

Produced and created by Weinberger Media and Fresetti Media. Ashley Flowers is executive producer. This episode was written and produced by Daryl Brown. Researched by Kate Cooper. Edited by Ali Sirwa and Philjean Grande. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

So had Cassandra made good on her promise? Had she really made a plan to celebrate her daughter's first birthday and then leave both Henry and their daughter behind? It was a possibility that detectives had to consider.

I'm Anastasia Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.

A friend of Cassandra's had a similar story to tell of Cassandra making plans to move on and away from Henry.

It's a decision that sadly many women, mothers, and people are forced to make every day, uprooting their lives to escape an unhealthy relationship, putting their mental and physical safety above all else. But in this situation, one thing really didn't make sense, and that was why would Cassandra have left her daughter behind in the custody of the man she was leaving?

If she was really looking for a fresh start, there would be no doubt from her sister and her friends that she would have taken her child with her.

Cassandra's sister told police that Cassandra was no different, and checking her social media accounts was typically the best way to keep track of her daily movements.

There are some days you mark on the calendar that you look forward to. It might be a wedding, a birthday, or a favorite holiday. Days that bring friends and loved ones together and promise to put a smile on everyone's face.

Checks with her cell carrier showed her mobile phone hadn't been active either. The last known communication was the phone accessing a signal tower besides the interstate close to Pensacola.

That mobile phone activity was on February 2nd, the day after the party. Could that be Cassandra making her way out of Pensacola, out of Florida, or something else?

I think for sure it is. But again, depending on how savvy the person who is now missing is, like they might know to just get cash, right? And if we look at Cassandra, of course, like sudden changes are often suspicious, but the specifics of every person's life can be very telling.

And I think you said it just at the beginning of what you were talking about there, Scott, like here she is in a problematic relationship. Maybe she needs an escape. She's a young mother plus the hilly relationship. These are things that sometimes people just need to go, you know, whether it was because she was overwhelmed Something having to do with any past mental health issues?

We just don't know. But regardless, like while there were plausible reasons why Cassandra had left home and maybe stopped using her phone, there was also enough reasons to believe that her sudden disappearance was not of her own volition. And detectives in Pensacola weren't comfortable with the idea that Cassandra had simply left.

And while it was still a leap to suspect foul play, and again, remember what Scott said about that proof of life digital footprint. Here, when they looked at it all, they decided to search the property where Cassandra and Henry had been living to see if there were any clues where she might be.

So what had happened to Cassandra? Chad picked up the case with no active leads, but lots of unanswered questions.

For others, sometimes these milestones and celebrations can put into focus what's missing in their lives. A happy marriage, a child of their own, or a painful loss.

Would the father of Cassandra's daughter provide a reasonable rationale for her sudden disappearance? Or would detectives uncover evidence that the 25-year-old mom was not just missing, she'd been murdered?

In the four months since Cassandra Robinson disappeared, Henry and their one-year-old daughter had moved to a new house in Perdido Key about 30 minutes away from the house they shared in February of 2018.

But even with the surprise visit of two Pensacola detectives at his door, Henry was welcoming.

an extended vacation. And the more the two detectives pushed and probed, the more Henry was able to remember about this impromptu holiday. According to Henry, Cassandra had talked about going to Bermuda and had even borrowed some money from a friend to fund the trip.

Mountain City, Tennessee is a very small, quaint town of about 2,500 people situated at the foot of the Appalachian Mountains.

Janelle was even included in a day of rock climbing with a group that included one of the murder victims, Billy Payne. So far, so good for the reclusive Janelle. But according to mutual friends, there was already trouble brewing in the new friend group.

These abusive comments directed at both Janelle and Billie Jean were also being echoed by a number of other online people, too, including dozens of anonymous users. The result? Janelle was unfriended by Billie and Billie Jean, and she quickly returned the favor.

During the interview with Janelle, her parents, Barbara and Marvin, were also present. And in listening to the recording of this conversation, you can immediately hear that there is just something off in the Potter's reaction to Billy and Billie Jean's murder. Here's a piece of what was said.

Nowadays, taking a look at Main Street where the high school football stands on a Friday night, you might think that it's the kind of place that really hasn't changed much over the years. And you'd be right. Partially.

But according to Janelle, not all of the online abuse was petty in nature. Some of it even threatened physical violence.

You know, Scott, just thinking what law enforcement is quickly learning about, you know, not all is well when it came to what was going on, at least online between these, that definitely puts it in the could it be motive category.

But again, as whether you're law enforcement or prosecutor, to me, it's all super interesting and has to be looked into much more deeply, but not much more, at least yet.

But again, just from their own observations, this young woman, 30, at least to me, is still young, that I should say it's a big stretch from Odd Answers to get to cold-blooded, skilled executioner. But while they were speaking to her, Janelle did offer an alibi for the night of the murder, saying that she was at home with her mom, an alibi that her mother, of course, verified.

But this online grudge between Janelle Potter and the two murder victims, it did point to like, again, that potential motive. And it also could at least help narrow down the pool of potential suspects.

But according to people that knew them, Jamie Curd and Janelle were more than just acquaintances, evidenced by the fact that Jamie had publicly taken Janelle's side in her ongoing feud with Billy and Billie Jean.

And to me, that just feels like a huge coincidence, right? Like, what are the odds? And it wasn't long before police sat Jamie Kerr down for a second interview to confront him about both his relationship with Janelle and his recent fight with his second cousin, Billy Payne.

Curden admitted that he had been at the Potter's home for dinner two nights before the murder when a dark plan had been hatched.

Matt was also witness to one of the strangest and more disturbing homicide cases to ever hit these parts of northeastern Tennessee.

According to Kurt, he had no intention of participating in Potter's plan. but Janelle's father had other ideas.

But according to Jamie Curd, his job was not done.

The details of the crime are incredibly brutal and mind-boggling. And with this much detail, Curd's story was also pretty convincing. But of course, investigators would want more proof, need more proof that Curd was telling the truth and not just pinning these murders on someone else. And they were actually able to do this in a pretty convincing way.

And Potter had no idea that their call was being recorded by police.

It's hard to fathom how someone could be capable of this kind of violence or what motive could have driven them to it, but police and prosecutors in Johnson County would have to try.

On the morning of January 31st, 2012, Billy Payne's coworker arrived at the home they shared with Billy's dad to pick him up for work.

Marvin Potter's immense weapon collection included handguns, long-barreled rifles, assault weapons, and lots and lots of knives. A frightening but promising lead. Law enforcement hoped that somewhere in that house was the weapon that killed Billy and Billie Jean.

They need to die. Were these idle threats or promises to keep?

But it was the back of the truck that contained the real treasure trove of evidence.

What was most intriguing to police was that many of these emails describing the alleged threats against Janelle were coming from a person named Chris. And Chris seemed to know an awful lot about the Potter-Hayworth feud that was roiling Mountain City.

And like any good secret agent, Chris had access to all sorts of information.

The paper trail of evidence that law enforcement was able to piece together showed how Barbara and Janelle Potter bombarded Marvin with the threatening emails, Facebook posts, and supposed intel about threats to Janelle's life until eventually he decided it was up to him to do something about it.

Later that morning at about 10 a.m., a former neighbor and friend of Billy's dad dropped by the residence to pick up some mail.

But there was one huge problem. These threats against Janelle, this intel from a supposed CIA agent, they were all lies.

Another way police were able to figure out that these emails were fake? A good old-fashioned grammar test.

There was even an email from Janelle's mother, Barbara, to the man she thought was Chris, saying, quote, we don't want to kill anyone, but we will if we have to.

But Potter stopped short of a full confession. He saved that for his wife, Barbara.

Potter also talked to his daughter, Janelle, the person police now believed had put this double murder into motion. Here's Marvin Potter speaking to his daughter, Janelle Potter.

They are charged with felony murder right along with Buddy Potter. For his role, Jamie Curd was also charged with two counts of first-degree murder, but those charges would eventually be reduced in exchange for his cooperation and ultimately his testimony against the Potters.

Instead, they focused on the simple facts, that he had possessed customized ammunition matching the bullets found at the crime scene. His accomplice, Jamie Curd, testified to his guilt, and Potter himself had confessed to the murder.

As the trial of Janelle Potter approached, for prosecutors, the main concern would be proving that she was indeed the mastermind of this elaborate scheme that ended in this horrific double murder.

While she was clearly responsible for exaggerating and ultimately fictionalizing these threats against her life, would the jury find that there was some reasonable doubt about her culpability in the actual murders?

The neighbor then did what I think most of us would and should do. He slowly backed out of the room, left the house, and immediately called 911.

At her trial, it was Matt's job to unravel Janelle Potter's web of lies and deception and to prove that she was well aware of the intended consequences.

So what looked like a concerted campaign of cyberbullying was actually entirely self-created.

And remember that supposed CIA agent named Chris? Well, as it turns out, he was real. Sort of.

I'm Anastasia Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.

And just in case you were wondering, no, Chris was not in the CIA.

In May of 2015, both Janelle and Barbara Potter were convicted of first-degree murder, with Janelle receiving a life sentence for her role in orchestrating the deadly plot.

As for Marvin Potter, he may not have pulled the trigger if he had not been convinced by his own wife and daughter that Janelle was in real danger. But when he was, he acted without mercy, taking the lives of two young parents.

23-year-old Billie Jean Hayworth had been shot in the head at close range while still cradling her infant son in her arms. Miraculously, the baby survived without a physical scratch.

A post-conviction hearing of the case happened in 2021. Marvin Potter testified that he was the only person responsible for the deaths of the two victims, protecting the women in his life to the very end. Both he and Janelle lost their appeals and are currently serving their sentences.

It may be impossible to understand the reasons Janelle Potter concocted this scheme beyond her own petty jealousies, pride, and ego, but the results of her actions are all too real. Two innocent people murdered in their home, and their seven-month-old child left to grow up without his parents.

This case is the type of story we expect to see in the movies or as fictional tales on TV. But unfortunately for Billy and Billie Jean, this horror was very real. Technology and social media can be a great thing, but there are inherent dangers we need to be aware of too. It's easy to hide behind the mask of a screen name. The screen name concocted by Janelle Potter

And the words she typed create a lethal and brutal tinderbox that led to double murder. Two young people, Billy and Billie Jean, gone from this earth forever. Their infant left to walk this world without either parent to ever hold him or care for him again. Our thoughts are with him, that now young boy, and hope that those that now care for him will love and support him with all their might.

His mother held him in her arms even after her last breath. And we hope that will help him know just how much she loved her little boy. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? I approve!

According to Matt, the crime scene itself was particularly revealing, not because of what evidence was there, but because of what was not.

investigators would first naturally assume that this could have been some kind of home invasion or fatal robbery. But not only were there no signs of forced entry, there were also no signs of a burglary. Nothing appeared to be stolen, no drawers rummaged, no furniture overturned, even Billy's wallet was left undisturbed.

In such a small town, news of the tragic loss of the young parents spread quickly, and so did the fear.

Law enforcement immediately began to comb the area in search of anyone that may have witnessed the crime. The sound of a gunshot, the sight of a fleeing car, anything that could give detectives a running start. But they didn't have much luck.

Those bullets were used to determine the caliber of the weapon used, in this case, a .38 handgun. But that's not all the bullets would reveal about the murder and the potential killer.

And then there was also the fact that Billy Payne's throat had been cut, a vicious and up-close-end personal assault that, when coupled with the fatal gunshot, seemed excessively brutal.

And I think the one thing that I'm thinking, Scott, when I hear you say that is that it is clear that that is 200 homicides too many. And we know that is unfortunately just a piece of what is out there. But we do thank all of you, our listeners, for caring about these cases as we talk about them weekly to you.

And when you put all those pieces together, the things that stand out to me quite quickly is just that it was quick. It was not random. And all the evidence makes pretty clear, at least on its face, that this was preplanned.

And so the search for suspects began where it often does, by quizzing friends and neighbors about what they knew about the couple and anyone that might have wanted to do them harm.

But as the interviews around town continued, tongues began to loosen about a brewing rivalry between the murder victims and some other local residents of Mountain City.

The Potters had lived in Tennessee for seven years, but by Mountain City standards, where just about everyone seemed to be related by either blood or marriage or have known one another for most of their lives, the Potters were considered newcomers.

And Janelle in particular was known for her struggles to fit in socially and may have had some issues that kept her close to home and close to her protective parents.

And it was on Facebook where the tension between Janelle, Billie, and Billie Jean first started to surface.

And what they would uncover would shed light on how a simmering online rivalry could boil over into threats of bullying, conspiracy, and eventually even murder.

According to Johnson County Prosecutor Matt Rourke, gossip in town led police to the door of 30-year-old Janelle Potter, who'd been introduced to Billie and Billie Jean through Billie's sister Tracy.

And if investigators were able to uncover evidence that Maria's suspicious death was the result of foul play, the revelation of infidelity or a possible love triangle could be the first hint of a potential motive.

According to her husband, Joel, Maria's death was likely the result of an intentional overdose on a powerful prescription medication. But evidence found at the couple's home was starting to raise suspicions about his story.

In the moments before the interview started, cameras recorded Joel alone in the interview room. And I have to say, he demonstrates some bizarre behavior, even when you consider the fact that just hours before he had lost his wife, he was pacing, crying, even slamming furniture. And in a way, something you can't put into words, but when you watch it, just something seems off.

Growing up in Texas, Luis Mata thought he might one day become a sportscaster. But his dad was a police officer right in Laredo, and he never could get used to the idea of leaving his hometown.

The co-worker's name was Janet, and it was her house where Joel had been staying. But according to Joel, he and Maria had made plans to have what he called a final heart-to-heart about the state of their marriage. And that explained why on that night, he had driven to Maria's house, not Janet's, after getting off of work.

When asked about the syringes and IV equipment found in the home, Joel initially said they were work-related, but couldn't explain why they were located outside of his medical bag or why he would have brought his medical bag into the house to begin with.

As an anesthetist, Joel administered IVs for a living, and police found both the equipment and the drugs of his trade in the house. A very dark picture of a potential crime was starting to emerge.

However, pending an autopsy and a full toxicology report, investigators still did not know the cause or manner of Maria's death. So even if they did suspect foul play, and clearly they did, there was still no evidence that a homicide had even taken place. And for that reason, Joel was released.

I am a firm believer that you can often learn more from someone's reaction to news than you can from their actual words. And according to Luis, news of Maria's death did not seem to take Janet by surprise.

Janet admitted that Joel frequently stayed at her house, but denied seeing him before or after Maria's estimated time of death.

And this is where the lawyer has to chime in and say that retaining a lawyer is anyone's right. And it is by no means an indication of guilt. But of course, from an investigator's point of view, any perceived obstacle in an investigation does tend to fuel suspicions.

Case in point, the story of 31-year-old Maria Munoz and her husband, Joel Peyote. Maria and Joel met when she was a nursing student, and he was an ambitious nurse anesthetist 11 years her senior.

Footage from just three days before Maria's death showed Maria arriving at Janet's home, banging on the door and demanding that Joel come outside.

I mean, look, it's clear that it was contentious. Maria is not happy. And in Joel's eyes, she's giving him a hard time, whether it's because he doesn't want to lose her, doesn't want to lose Janet, or just doesn't want the headache of a divorce. I mean, who knows where that lies? But one thing does seem clear, and that is that he was angry.

But still, investigators did not have the evidence to prove that Joel or Janet were involved in Maria's death.

And according to those people who knew Maria, including her sister and close friends that she emailed with regularly, Maria had never contemplated taking her own life. And while she was upset over her husband's infidelity, she was also resolved to move on with her life.

But the most telling information was provided by Maria's own journal, one in which she routinely confessed her private thoughts, even in the days leading up to her death.

In addition to Maria's journal, investigators were able to search her phone records and recovered numerous messages between Maria and her friends, documenting Joel's violent outbursts and her fears of his growing hostility. One chilling text sent just the night before her death read, I just ask if you can pray for me. Tonight we are going to talk.

In other words, the tox screen may show cause of death, but it would not necessarily prove the manner of death, specifically whether it was homicide, death by suicide, or accidental.

That's very important. Instead, her system showed a deadly cocktail of six other powerful drugs.

There's just no plausible reason why Maria would have had access to those drugs. More importantly, the results of the talk screen directly contradicted statements Joel had made to police.

To the casual observer, Joel and Maria appear to be a happy, attractive, and a well-off family living in an upscale Laredo neighborhood. But looks can be deceiving.

A toxicology report revealed that Maria Munoz had a fatal mix of several powerful drugs in her system and a single injection mark on her inner arm hinted at the delivery method.

The official cause of death was determined to be acute intoxication, but the medical examiner listed the manner of death as undetermined.

So, you know, Scott, and we say this all the time, you have to think about this from the defense perspective before you go into court or even file the charges. In many cases, you should. And I can also see it if I'm looking at the other way. At least you have to be able to think about they're going to come with this, like that she is so distraught because of

The marriage breakup, him being with this other woman that it's almost like, hey, you know, please, like, I love you. You don't want to be with me. Like, please end this for me. Like, you can make it painless. You know how to do that. Or maybe they were like taking drugs together. He gave her too much. Doesn't sound like that to me at all.

But it is things investigators need to rule out because the defense may well go there if they don't.

The challenge in this case for prosecutors, the biggest one, it wouldn't be proving who killed Maria Munoz if that was the fact, but if a murder had been committed at all.

And with the realization that she could be held accountable for withholding key evidence or possibly even being complicit in a plan to cover up the murder, Joel's girlfriend was convinced it was time to make a deal.

In the early morning hours of September 22nd, 2020, Laredo police received a 911 call from Joel and Maria's home in North Laredo.

According to Janet, Joel had claimed that Maria's death was not suicide or homicide, but rather a terrible accident.

Janet's account of Peyote's actions painted the picture not just of a manipulative, abusive husband, but a cold, calculating killer.

In his trial, prosecutors would argue that Peyote intentionally and deliberately incapacitated his wife and injected her with a deadly mix of powerful drugs, then attempted to stage her murder as a death by suicide.

As for motive, prosecutors argued that it went beyond Peyote's desire to be with another woman. They believed his motive might have also been financial.

Throughout the trial, Peyote refused to admit any wrongdoing and showed little remorse for the murder of his wife.

Maria Munoz was a mother, a wife, a woman navigating her way through a marriage that wasn't working, with a husband who was in a relationship with someone else. None of it's easy, and unfortunately too many people understand the type of pain Maria was living. But that's the key. She should have lived. She should have left him or stayed. They should have divorced or not. But that's it.

That's the type of decision people in relationships make, whether difficult or no longer viable. Those are the reasonable choices for every person to consider. Not murder. Not taking a mother from her young kids. Not taking a woman's life. Maria Munoz, we remember you.

We hope that your boys are well and that they remember your strength, all the good qualities you surely passed down to them, and most importantly, that they still remember and feel your love for them both. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? No! No!

CPR was continued, but Maria was unresponsive. Her eyes appeared fully dilated and she had no pulse. Shortly after paramedics arrived, Maria Munoz was declared dead. All the while, her two sons, just five and two, were still sleeping only a few feet away.

I'm Anastasia Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.

According to Joel, he had arrived at the house after his shift at the hospital. He explained how he and Maria had been having some marriage trouble, and he had promised to come home to have what he called a heart-to-heart.

You may be asking why a homicide detective would be called to the scene of an overdose, accidental or otherwise. But as Luis explains, it doesn't take a knife or a gun to make a death suspicious.

All marriages have their ups and downs, and most couples will tell you that it takes a lot of patience and hard work to make a healthy partnership endure.

But according to the officer at the scene, there were some things about Joel's story that weren't adding up.

But that wasn't the only thing about the scene that had gotten law enforcement's attention.

Joel's erratic behavior was also attracting attention. He was sweating profusely through his scrubs, and he was growing impatient with the police, insisting that his wife had to be transported to the hospital before the sun came up and before the neighbors began wondering what had happened next door.

As the homeowner, Joel had the legal authority to grant police or not his consent to recover any evidence from inside the house. But to Luis's surprise, he denied that consent.

It sounds suspicious, right? But as a prosecutor, I always have to think about it from the other side, too. Some people are just not fans of law enforcement. And there's always the possibility that he's just scared or traumatized. And his refusal to cooperate with police is not an indication that there's anything sinister going on at all.

But of course, some marital discord can prove too challenging to overcome, especially when it comes to infidelity, abuse, or other trauma.

Joel soon realized that his attempt not to make a scene actually did exactly that. They made a crime scene.

But that's not to say that there weren't things that seemed out of place, starting with Maria's body itself. If Maria had passed away in bed, as Joel had claimed, why was her body on the floor at the loft at the top of the stairs?

And if Joel had showered as he claimed to have, why was he back in his work scrubs when police first arrived?

According to Google, the two registered devices were located at the far corner of the gas station from 10.35 to 11 p.m. on the night of the murder.

Paul Creelman has been in law enforcement in some form or another since he was barely out of grade school.

The owner of both devices was a man we'll just call Enzo, and his car, you guessed it, a gray Toyota Camry with a license plate with the letter E as its fourth digit.

But since he was working for cash and not through the ride-sharing app, he only knew the client by his first name.

And this right here, it's an important detail because it suggests that after his initial confrontation with Jamal, Ivan, or the guy we now know as Ivan, may have known he was planning something that might require a quick exit.

So who was this Ivan, besides now the prime suspect in the shooting death of Jamal Drummond? Investigators ran his phone number through police records and soon had their answer.

Semioya also had an arrest record in Florida. So Paul compared booking photographs from those previous arrests to the surveillance video from the hotel and the gas station. And wouldn't you know it, they were a perfect match.

Samaoya was located at his home and arrested without incident. he was handcuffed and transported back up I-95 to West Palm Beach. In the meantime, a team stayed behind to collect potential evidence from his residence.

But despite his transient lifestyle, it didn't appear that he had any connection to either Riviera Beach, where Jamal Drummond was from, or West Palm Beach, where Jamal was murdered.

Paul was joined by a fellow detective, and together they made a conscious effort to play it even calmer and gentler than their interviewee presented. A veteran detective knows all too well how rapport is key to almost any interview, and understanding the subject of the interview and playing to that personality is often the best chance for success.

And when I'm thinking about those contrasts that you were talking about that exist in South Florida, Palm Beach is the prime example of that. Because when many of us hear Palm Beach, we think of mansions by the ocean, luxury shopping, and the top 1% of that 1% of wealth in this country. But other areas in Palm Beach are very different than the extreme wealth seen on the coast.

Throughout the course of the interview, Semayoya was cooperative and cordial. But that doesn't mean there wasn't something that immediately raised red flags with detectives.

Some people think that the singular win of a suspect interview is to elicit a confession, but that is definitely not always the case. Sometimes the methodical collection of information, confirming timelines and locations, can be just as important. Case in point, proving that the phone number used to hire the driver on the night of the murder belonged to the suspect.

Almost immediately, Samaoya realized he had made a grave mistake, positively identifying himself as the man that cameras and witnesses had spotted at both the Holiday Inn and the gas station across the street.

And that includes the area of West Palm Beach.

But there's also another item that as a prosecutor, I would be interested in finding. And that would be the murder weapon.

Predictably, his first phone call was to his girlfriend, and the drama that ensued gave investigators a window into Semioya's state of mind, and possibly his motive.

It was a stunning admission that potentially revealed more than just the location of the murder weapon. Gail was the woman in the photo that an agitated Semioya had shown to witnesses before shooting Jamal Drummond. She was clearly at the center of this crime, but in what capacity?

Recorded jailhouse calls between the suspect in Jamal Drummond's murder, Claudio Ivan Semioya, and his girlfriend had provided some pretty incriminating, albeit circumstantial, evidence that Ivan Semioya was indeed Jamal's killer.

The girlfriend's willingness to cooperate gave investigators their first clue about her level of loyalty to Semioya, as well as the unlikelihood that she was involved in the actual crime itself. And the phone? Well, that proved to be everything they hoped for and more.

You know, when you look at what we're hearing about these two and their relationship, you know, there are those relationships that thrive on the negative. You know, it's the excitement and also the curse. So, again, is this indicative of someone who is controlled or abused? You know, that role play, strong and tough one minute, but – When you want out of the roles, you can't leave.

It's really definitely, it sounds at least to me, dysfunctional. But again, is there coercive control playing in here, you know, or power plays at even a higher level? Or is it just the back and forth that these two have signed on for? But as you said, Scott, at the end of the day, is she part and parcel?

And while I'd say it doesn't seem like it, certainly at the end, whether it's helping cover for something, well, that I think is less clear or maybe more clear, I should say.

As other cases have shown us, the victim, or I should say the survivor of abuse, is not always the most reliable witness. She could choose to cooperate in an effort to free herself from that abusive partner, or she might also come to his defense. And obviously I'm saying she and he, but it could go any which way.

The husband and wife who witnessed the shooting just happened to be off-duty corrections officers on vacation, and their quick action ensured a swift response from first responders. Since the cop started this riot where you checked in right in the very front entrance.

Here's part of that recorded interview.

But that does not mean that Jamal's murder was purely a crime of passion. In fact, investigators had collected convincing evidence that suggested Samayoya's actions were thought out and deliberate.

Paul and his fellow investigators had given prosecutors a treasure trove of evidence to hopefully successfully make their case. But as we have discussed so many times before, when it comes to trial, there is no such thing as a slam dunk.

Plus, you had the location data from his cell phone that placed him at the scene. So even without his actual phone, prosecutors still had a pretty strong case.

But being able to show the jury a photo of him posing with a possible murder weapon that had existed right there on his phone, or the text where he brags about being wanted, I absolutely can certainly understand Paul and the prosecutors' frustrations about losing that evidence.

I have to stop for a second because Paul's discussion of his decision that ended up being a misstep, to me that is so important to discuss beyond the actual loss of evidence itself. You know, his straightforwardness, hey, this is a misstep. That's exactly the type of transparency that is key to what I hope. would instill more trust in our system because people make mistakes.

Most are not nefarious or ill-intended. And when they are, of course, it's a different story, completely no excuse. But when they aren't, we hope they don't hurt a case too much. And luckily here it didn't, but we're all human.

And Scott and I, you and I have had this conversation many times before, but we all make mistakes and Paul's honesty and insight about it, I found to be really important to stop here for a moment and highlight.

You know, it's just this idea, Scott, of the jury being locked. And so often it can just take one or more jurors that decide to go off on their own brain space. And that's it. Because if all 12 can't agree, it's game over in the sense that you're going to have a mistrial, which just is super frustrating for prosecutors, law enforcement, and more importantly, families that want resolve.

But really, the recourse is just you got to do it all over again because that is what justice requires. And so that's what we do.

As you can imagine, the mistrial was also painful for Jamal's family, who had not just lost a son and a father, but had been denied that close to a court case and justice for Jamal that they had hoped a guilty verdict would provide.

But sadly, there was nothing they could do. At 10.58 p.m., West Palm Beach fire medics pronounced the victim dead at the scene. The victim, a young man, had an obvious gunshot wound to the face.

And while prosecutors presented much of the same evidence, the second trial did not come off without a hitch. After agreeing to testify against her boyfriend, Gayle suddenly changed her tune.

At the conclusion of the trial, a jury found Ivan Semyoya guilty, and he was sentenced to life in prison without parole.

But it was a mistake that Paul owned, and it did not impact the ultimate just outcome of this case.

It's a weight felt by both investigators and prosecutors alike, but one gladly born to lessen the burden on those victims and survivors for whom they seek justice.

Jamal Drummond. The senselessness of his murder is made all the more infuriating because it came down to nothing more than wrong place, wrong time. Samayoi came looking for his girlfriend, what sounded to be a twisted relationship to say the very least. And his infatuation or need for control, need to find her and being unable to do so,

made him lash out in the most brutal of ways against a complete stranger. Misplaced aggression coupled with a gun. Devastating consequences. Jamal was there for a party. He should have gone on to attend many more parties, live countless more days amongst the friends and family he loved and loved him back. Tune in next week for another new episode of Anatomy of Murder.

Anatomy of Murder is an AudioChuck original produced and created by Weinberger Media and Fresetti Media.

This episode was written and produced by Walker Lamond, researched by Kate Cooper, edited by Ali Sirwa, and Philjean Grande. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? No!

Jamal was a devoted dad and a loyal friend, not the kind of person who made enemies or sought out trouble, which made his murder not only tragic, but all the more puzzling that he would have been targeted in such a brutal fashion.

According to Jamal's former girlfriend, she had agreed to meet him and some friends who had gathered at the hotel for a birthday party.

I'm Anastasia Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.

At least one of the shots hit Jamal above the right eye. It was almost immediately fatal.

And yet, even that scenario didn't quite sit right with detectives, because there was something in the witness's description of the shooter's behavior that made it feel less like a fight and more like a planned ambush.

Today's episode takes us back to Scott's old stomping ground along the South Florida coast.

Whatever the man's motive, detectives were confident that he could not have gotten far. And the faster they could release a description of the suspect, the sooner they could get him off the streets.

And just as importantly, she told police she was also able to describe the car he had arrived in.

Luckily, those interior cameras were of high quality, and after pulling the footage, investigators immediately spotted a person matching the suspect's description.

In the meantime, crime scene investigators scoured the hotel parking lot for any more clues that could help identify the killer.

Better yet, they had his getaway car.

The suspect fled the scene, but surveillance footage captured him at a gas station across the street, followed shortly after by the same gray Toyota Camry spotted earlier at the hotel. So, Scott, I mean, the obvious question is, are they now looking for one or is it two or more?

And for me, potentially and much more likely with this car evidence now, it's not this spur of the moment occurrence, right? If a car is there and it's moving, it seems more purposeful and possibly preplanned.

Geofencing is a method that uses GPS to delineate a specific geographical area with digital boundaries for the purpose of collecting location data from any cellular device within those boundaries.

Scott, I know that you and I have talked about this offline. It is one of those cool things. what they can do now with technology types of evidence. I always think back when I had friends that literally left the police department to work on this before it was ever really a thing. And now to see it being used in a case like this really shows the advancements that have been made.

There was also the fact that Bedore had called a friend to come pick up her daughters before calling 911. And not only that, when police interviewed that friend, they made a disturbing discovery.

You know, it's interesting, and I've been kind of swirling these things around in my mind because, yeah, like that strange behavior, again, taking the flip side, like, is it that she's just being strong for the sake of her kids, you know, protecting them by not letting them see her break down?

Like, she clearly doesn't want them either to go inside and also not to be there, so why she hands them off to the friend, right? But I don't know, even going into the house without her kids initially, like that's kind of odd unless, I don't know, maybe they're very young and she's taking groceries in and so she likes to get the door open before taking them out.

But it definitely is all things that I think even the fact that we're debating them back and forth right now to each other, it's going to make detectives need to look deeper and question at least the order of the way she did things on top of, to your point, Scott, her demeanor, like how calm she appeared.

If you were to ask their friends and neighbors, they would tell you that the Alyasaris were a stable, happy family living a typical suburban life. But on February 4th, 2019, at 8.05 p.m., that facade would come crashing down with a frantic call to 911.

Unless it's someone who has access to their laptops or their apps, like it is the cyber crime generation. But again, all questions that investigators are going to want to figure out.

From text messages to her husband, they learned that he arrived home that day at about 6.50 p.m., giving investigators a good indicator of his time of death. But it also confirmed to them that the door at the time was still several miles from home.

What Bedore didn't know, and I don't know, maybe perhaps few people do, is that even when you delete a text app from your phone, that texting data still lives on the company's servers. So investigators were able to get a search warrant for the TextNow app and recover that stored data.

Fisher was a local community college student originally from California and a former infantryman in the U.S. Army. And Bedore's text data revealed the entire chronology of their seven-month relationship.

While Bedore's phone data didn't turn up any texts making direct mention of a plan to kill her husband, it did reveal texts that seemed to set the stage.

Police chose not to re-interview Bedour regarding her relationship with Fisher, and there was a sound procedural reason for this tactic.

The receipt was dated January 31st, just four days prior to the murder.

It was looking likely that Fisher was the man that killed Amar. What investigators still did not know was whether he acted alone or was assisted in his plan by Bedore.

But that wasn't all investigators got. They also left the store with strong evidence suggesting Fisher had an accomplice.

The wealth of circumstantial evidence convinced authorities in Lansing, Michigan, that Baddour Alyassari and her boyfriend, Jacob Fisher, conspired to murder Baddour's husband and father of their children, Ammar.

Another indication of Fisher's lack of remorse, the revelation that shortly after he was identified as the prime suspect, after the murder, Jacob Fisher had showed up at a local watering hole, boasting that he had killed someone and needed money to get out of town.

Okay, Scott, can we just talk about the fact that someone goes to a bar and starts boasting about murdering someone and needs help to get out of town? Does that even make sense that someone thinks that that's going to work out and that somebody's not going to tip off somebody else, i.e. equaling the police?

And I think to your point, Scott, and I think it is a good point that as we know, people say all sorts of things and many people may have just taken it as like, oh, he's boasting and really not thought much about it. But, you know, it's also interesting that as much as he talked in the bar when he was arrested, he chose not to make any statements to police.

And so based on the evidence that law enforcement has collected at this point, which included footage from a dash cam that Bedore had operating in her truck, investigators formed a theory as to how the pair had worked together to commit murder.

Investigators were certain that Badur Alyasari had conspired with Fisher to kill her husband. But it was prosecutors who would need to present a compelling case, making the strength of the circumstantial evidence clear enough to hopefully prove it in court.

A hundred percent. But as we all know, like I like circumstantial evidence cases. And to me, it is like the truck that he's in when he's purchasing the ax and that alarm, like, of course, that is pretty strong evidence. It's exactly how I'm starting, not only my opening, but my closing.

And while domestic abuse can definitely be a precursor to more extreme violence, including murder, there was no actual evidence that she was telling the truth. There were no complaints ever filed, no visits from police, and more importantly, most importantly, I should say, no one close to Badur Alyasari who could verify her claims.

In fact, Ammar's sister had her own suspicions that her sister-in-law was the one who had actually harbored dangerous resentments about her marriage.

But Doerr told the operator that when she walked in and saw her husband laying lifeless on the floor, she immediately fled the home, fearful the attacker might still be inside.

But Dora Ayasari had claimed from the start that she had no knowledge of the murder. If this had been true, it was only logical that she would have been enraged at Jacob Fisher for killing Amar, her husband, and the father of her children. However, her actions post-arrest and prior to trial seemed to contradict her denials.

In November 2019, Jason Fisher was the first to face a jury. Charged with murder and conspiracy to commit murder, he entered a plea of not guilty.

It definitely doesn't. But again, still technically on its face, it's all circumstantial. And under Cross, the defense tried to convince the jury that prosecutors couldn't definitively place Fisher in the Al-Isari home on the day of the murder.

As we've discussed before, it's always risky for a defendant to put themselves on the stand and open themselves up to cross-examination. And even Nicole was surprised by the defense's decision. But she was even more surprised by what Fisher said when he testified.

Fisher went on to testify that they had plans for Bedore to file for divorce, then take the children with him to the West Coast where he'd grown up. But most importantly, that Bedore Alyassari had nothing to do with the murder.

But was this the truth or was it merely an effort to protect this woman he seemed to love, a woman that had potentially manipulated him into committing murder and now taking all the blame?

In January 2020, Jacob Fisher was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. While Fisher admitted he killed Amar, the jury rejected his assertion that he didn't intend to kill Amar, that it was self-defense, that Amar had first attacked him, and that the attack wasn't premeditated.

In her opening statement, Nicole told the jury that the pair not only plotted, planned, and worked together, but that Badar Alyassari knew how to fuel Jacob Fisher's hatred to manipulate him into killing her husband.

Prosecutors also presented evidence that a neighbor of the Alyassari's, between 5.30 and 6 on the day of the murder, had seen a man on their street in a dark hoodie fitting Fisher's build. They watched as he entered the Alyassari's front door, likely left unlocked by his accomplice.

I'm Anastasia Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.

The prosecution team did have the evidence to show that Bedor Alyassari was guilty, but would they be able to convince a jury, a jury they feared might be sympathetic to the widowed mother of two young children? The short answer? They did.

In securing the two convictions, Nicole was quick to give credit where credit is due.

Arriving deputies found Bedore crying hysterically in their front driveway.

Despite the dual courtroom victories, Nicole's thoughts on the case still center on Ammar Alyassari, son, brother, friend, and father, as well as those he left behind.

Ammar Alyassari walked in from work, likely thinking he'd have dinner and spend some time with his family before going to bed. Instead, he was met with a brutal death. How is it that someone who once either loved him, or at least said that she did, can so callously arrange for him to die? And how can the person in a relationship with her so violently murder another human being?

Those are questions I've often asked myself about many cases over the years, but clearly neither I nor anyone really has that answer. With his murder, Amar was taken from both his kids, two young girls who will never again have the love they deserve to be shown from their dad.

As we remember Amar, our thoughts are, of course, also with his daughters, and we hope they are surrounded with kindness and with love. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? I approve!

Amar was clearly deceased, with multiple deep lacerations visible on his head, face, and neck. He was still wearing a coat but no shoes, as if he may have just entered the house. Deputies also noticed a very strong chemical odor hanging in the air.

Once that was done, deputies sealed off the home. When homicide detectives soon arrived on scene, it was evident they would have their work cut out for them.

And look, we've obviously talked about things like this many times before in AOM, but these type of injuries often prove to be personal, right? Some sort of like deep-seated anger or rage. However, again, always looking at the flip side too, which investigators and prosecutors must do,

While not as likely, we've definitely also seen cases where something like this, even this severe, is completely random with someone with a deep-seated anger and even maybe mental health issues on display. But, you know, Scott, obviously there are signs of this not only being deliberate, but also thought out in advance with the heavy smell that they determined to be bleach in the air.

Whether it's the digital shadow we cast when using our phones, the purchases logged by the use of an ATM card, or the video images captured by a surveillance camera, we all leave behind a traceable trail of our actions and whereabouts.

Detectives theorized that Ammar likely walked in from the garage and had been attacked by someone lying in wait who was already inside the house. A truly terrifying thought.

And of those 24 axe wounds, 17 of them were deep enough to be fatal, leaving no doubt about this killer's intention.

After discovering her husband on the floor, she retreated from the house, fearing that that intruder might still be inside. She then called a neighbor to collect her kids before finally dialing 911.

But Dora was adamant that she had no idea who may have wanted to kill her husband. She described him as well-liked and respected at work. Amar was also a private person who rarely socialized and not the type to engage in at-risk or criminal behavior that might put him in any kind of danger.

So the alarm was turned off and the front door was unlocked. You can imagine how that would start to raise suspicion about the only other person who had that kind of access to this house, Amar's wife, Badur.

It's also important to remember that 54% of homicides are committed by someone the victim knows, the majority of those by the person closest to them.

According to Bedour, her marriage to Ammar was far from perfect. She claimed he was often verbally abusive, and despite her education and employment, expected her to be just a wife.

If true, these marital troubles were, of course, unfortunate, but it hardly seems like any sort of sufficient motive for murder. What she revealed next, however, that was potentially a different story.

Holt, Michigan, is a residential suburb of Lansing with a population of about 25,000 people. And it was here that Ammar and Badur Alyassari, recent immigrants from Iraq, decided to settle down and raise their two kids.

So, Scott, this is interesting to me because, of course, you know, this isn't the only person to have an extramarital relationship outside of the marriage. But at this point, if she's telling that much to investigators, why not just give up the name of the person she's having the relationship with? I mean, of course, there could be innocent reasons, but it does make you raise an eyebrow.

But police weren't going to leave it there, so they went about at that point obtaining a search warrant and confiscated her phone.

And while a digital forensics team extracted the phone's data, which would include a full history of calls, texts, and locations, investigators followed up on another mystery from the crime scene, how a Mars killer gained access to the home without triggering their alarm system.

But detectives had turned up evidence that Amar's wife, Badur, who had discovered her husband's body, had also remotely disabled the security alarm at 5.32 p.m. on the day of the murder.

But as we will discuss, it also raises important questions about the risks and the evolving relationship between law enforcement and social media.

But you know, that level of violence doesn't really even seem to square with the initial crime. You know, you take advantage of here, a rental property, you know, people are in or out, you don't see the car. So, Hey, we're going to go and do our laundry. We're going to make ourselves at home at this nice home on the beach and

To go from that to the most brutal of murder, there's just something else going on. And, you know, it's just incredible to think about what that might be.

And that really is the small miracle in this case was that Thelma's eight-year-old daughter was spared the physical violence and did not actually witness the attack on her mother or see her body as it lay on the ground as the two attackers brought this child into the home. But now it was this same child that also held the key to catching her mother's killers.

Within hours of Telma's murder, her partner Kevin and his family made additional public pleas for more information, offering a substantial reward to anyone who could help track down the truck or the killers. And an emotional video was posted by Kevin's brother and then shared by many high-profile surfers in the North Shore community. And that video, it soon went viral.

The user who posted the video was someone calling himself, and I quote, Axel Hayes Hendricks. But he was quickly identified by his real name, 23-year-old Stephen Brown. And the girl giggling to him was 20-year-old Haley Dandurant. And by the time police had seen the video, the comment section was already filled with accusations of murder and demands for justice.

From what police could gather, neither Brown nor Dandurand had criminal records.

In 2017, Telma Boyneville was a 51-year-old schoolteacher living a vibrant life with her partner Kevin and their eight-year-old daughter on the North Shore of Oahu, Hawaii's third-largest island.

I mean, the speed of which this social media, these posts like spread around the island, it was like wildfire, which is amazing, Scott, right? But then on the flip side, like you're saying, there can be misinformation there and what people are reading or hearing they're going to take as fact. And you just don't know how that's going to factor into the investigation.

And also you don't want vigilante justice for the primary reason you don't want additional people to be hurt in all this. So this really is a lot of back and forth when you're thinking about these cases. But on the positive note here, luckily in this case, the lead generated by the public was a strong one.

Within hours of the murder, tips began pouring in. The first was from two teenagers who had spotted the couple at a local shopping center just a few minutes drive from the crime scene.

A little before 8 p.m., approximately five hours after Telma's murder, police descended on the shopping center in Mililani.

As the first plainclothes officer approached, he identified himself as a police officer and ordered the couple to stop.

As for Dandurant, she too had done little to cover up her involvement in the crime. She also had visible bloodstains on her clothes, hands, and even the tops of her feet.

But despite her incriminating and fatalistic statement, there were still so many questions about Thelma's murder that remained unanswered. And the public outcry for justice was getting louder by the second.

23-year-old Stephen Brown and his girlfriend, 20-year-old Haley Danderand, were apprehended outside a nearby shopping center. Both suspects showed visible bloodstains on clothes, hands, and feet.

And, you know, I'm sure police were thankful that the public was out there feeding them those tips so quickly so they had made at least a quick apprehension. But, you know, this type of mob mentality can go sideways very quickly.

And so the police, while they are happy to have the tips and the support, the first thing they want to do is just disperse that scene before somebody else or even one of themselves gets hurt. And that really is the risk, even when motivated by the best intentions.

Police were able to de-escalate the situation and get Brown safely into the squad car. However, Brown was still intent on putting up a fight of his own.

But even though it seems he had done literally nothing to cover up his recent crime, not even washing his hands, Brown wasn't exactly surrendering.

But even with the homicide investigation that was just a few hours old, there was already sufficient evidence to obtain an indictment. Evidence that included a bloody washcloth found in Thelma's stolen truck, Brown's own backpack with his ID left at the murder scene, and the fact that Dandrin was actually wearing Thelma's daughter's backpack when she was arrested.

So to the dismay of Telma's family and her North Shore community, the trial of Stephen Brown did not begin until 2023, nearly six years after the murder.

Brown's family was conspicuously absent from the courtroom, although his foster parents did testify remotely via video and said that Brown had what they described, quote, as a rough childhood and had been the victim of physical abuse as a child.

Telma cherished the outdoors and had a strong connection to the ocean. If she wasn't on the beach, she and her huge signature smile could often be seen on her bike or taking her daughter to and from school.

According to Brown, Telma had indeed surprised them while they were ransacking the vacation home. He then claimed it was Danderent who was carrying the machete and ordered Boyneville to lie down so they could tie her up.

And remember, there were also five different weapons that had been used in this vicious attack. So if Brown had not participated in the attack, was it realistic at all that Dandrin would have used all five different weapons herself in this assault on Thelma?

And remember, Brown and Dandurand were tried separately. And when it was Dandurand's turn to be tried, in her defense, Dandurand claimed that it was she who had been under Brown's control and that Brown had forced her to participate in the crime.

So Dandurand asserted what is called in Hawaii a choice of evil defense.

There was also her behavior as documented in surveillance footage from the shopping center that suggested that she was not just complicit, but lacking any remorse for her participation in the murder.

Telma Boyneville had surprised Brown and Dandrin as they were burglarizing a house, which means really just entering with the intent to commit a crime inside and squatting or setting up camp in another's home without permission. Well, that is, of course, a crime. So that was when they were surprised by Telma. And of course, they could have just run.

They could have tied Telma up before making their escape and let her live. Instead, they chose to inflict an almost unthinkable amount of violence using a knife, a machete, a baseball bat, and a kitchen mallet to stab, slash, and beat this defenseless woman at this point. Because remember, she's bound to death. And for what? A minor burglary. A thrill.

December on Oahu brings a lot of visitors, many coming to town to take in the famous Pipe Master surfing competition. And so in addition to teaching, Telma had taken a side job cleaning and maintaining vacation homes on the island. And that day she was checking on a property that was being prepared for its next group of renters.

Thelma's daughter testified to being taken from the truck and brought into the house.

There was significant evidence to prove that Brown and Dandurand were responsible for killing Thelma Boyneville, even without her daughter's testimony. But with the young girl's description of the boy with green hair and the girl with pink hair in the immediate aftermath of the murder, it proved crucial to catching her mother's killers.