Anastasia Nicolazzi
Appearances
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
But there was nothing on his record indicating sexual assault or extreme violence.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
Today's story takes us to Beaverton, Oregon, a leafy suburb just a few miles outside of Portland. Beaverton is filled with parks and tree-lined streets that weave through the quiet neighborhoods.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
When asked why he fled from police, Gore explained that he was on probation and was concerned he was going to be arrested or returned to his family. But he showed no signs that he knew the real reason he was being questioned by police.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
If Gore suspected that the interview had to do with Milana, he wasn't showing it. But as we've always said, a goal in any interview is to keep the subject talking. So investigators moved slowly and deliberately, building rapport as they zeroed in on his timeline for the days leading up to Milana's murder.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
So Gore admitted that he knew the 13-year-old, but he denied that there was any romantic relationship between them.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
Let's just pause for a second here to note that it's of course not unheard of for teenagers to experiment with alcohol. So we won't even get into where they may have gotten it or that larger discussion about minors and drinking. But we should remember that Milana was only 13 and she was physically small in stature. So any amount of alcohol may well have affected her.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
Daniel claimed this was the last time he saw Milana, walking in the rain back towards the shopping center. He also claimed that the next day he even texted her, but she never responded.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
Still, he admitted being with Milana on the day of her murder, even to being the last one to see her alive.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
And that's exactly what they did. And as they looked for ways to corroborate his story, investigators uncovered a single inconsistency, but one that would turn the entire case upside down.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
Despite their suspicions, investigators didn't have direct evidence that Gore was anything more than a friend who had been with Milana on the same day she was believed to have been attacked and killed.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
As we have seen before, malls and shopping centers are often full of security cameras, so police can often follow someone's every move, and that was the case here. After leaving the yogurt shop, Milana and Daniel could be seen walking to the bus stop and boarding a bus, just as Gore had told police.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
It was about 7.45 p.m. on the night Milana disappeared. But while the cameras lost sight of them, their cell phones offered some chilling details of what happened next. Milana's phone suddenly turned off while Daniels indicated he proceeded into the woods towards his makeshift campsite.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
She also claimed that he appeared to have several scratches on his face and immediately went into the bathroom to call an ex-girlfriend.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
They were also still investigating the sexual assault committed against Milana before she was killed. And as part of that, they collected a biological sample from Gore for DNA analysis to compare to evidence collected by the medical examiner.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
The samples Gore agreed to provide proved critical to the case against him. The testing resulted in a match. It was Gore's DNA on the boxers that had been recovered and also his DNA recovered from Milana Lee. And we'll leave it at that.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
And I definitely look at the case myself as strong at that point, right? But there's never such a thing as I've said, like as a slam dunk. But there's all these pieces of circumstantial evidence that are being stitched together. But, you know, I always have to think like the defense, like what could they say? And they could say that any sexual activity was consensual, right?
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
To be a successful prosecutor, you need to be disciplined, resilient, and have the ability to think strategically, all attributes which one would learn in the military.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
And that something happened to Milana after the two sexes. Parted ways, you know, as a prosecutor, I'd be very comfortable going into court and showing all the pieces that disprove that idea, that there was anything consensual between them and this not equating to a violent crime.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
But, you know, as we always say, Scott, you need to guard against the various possibilities that the defense may use if this proceeds to trial.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
But before senior deputy DA John Gerhard could even get to trial, he had to first overcome a legal hurdle set in motion by a new law.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
And in this case, John was more than prepared to prove that Daniel Gore should be tried as an adult. And in the end, his argument to the court was successful.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
And there it was, right out of the gate, the defense made their argument clear. They claimed that Daniel had a consensual sexual encounter with a 13-year-old because it's a statutory sexual assault charge because of her age. But however, even putting that aside for a moment, the defense went on to argue that he did not kill her. And they also relied on that same DNA to try and prove their claim.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
Thirteen-year-old Milana Lee and her family had recently immigrated to Beaverton from Kazakhstan. The bright young sixth grader hadn't been in the States very long, but she was already adapting well to life in her new hometown.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
And the defense attorney made a big deal of this unidentified DNA, saying, I quote, we know who the killer is. We have his DNA. We just have to find him.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
And I also think, look, the defense went with using the pieces that they had. And think about this. They're just injecting, like, to your point, Scott, that bit of doubt, at least hoping that it'll rise to that level of reasonable doubt.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
Because also what they're saying is, hey, convict him for this statutory sexual assault, you know, that there's consensual sex, but we also know that it's an age difference thing. So convict him of that. It's a lower level crime, likely a lower sentence as well, but don't convict him for the murder. So I think it's using those things together and hoping they will prevail.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
But if Daniel Gore was indeed the person who assaulted, beat, and strangled Milana, the critical question then became why. Was this teenager, even a troubled one, truly capable of this level of violence?
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
For example, Daniel's musical taste, which was something that was brought up during his questioning.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
And as off-putting and terrible as all that sounds, John was in no way suggesting that music could make a killer. But when paired with Daniel's internet search history prior to Milana's death, it started to paint a dark picture.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
The prosecution argued that Milana was lured into the woods by the older teen and there was violently assaulted and then strangled to death. The coincidences between her manner of death and his search history were overwhelming, suggesting that her murder may have been an attempt to carry out an extremely dark and violent fantasy.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
Which brings us to the early morning of May 9th, 2022. Milana's mom had just returned home from working a night shift at the nearby Nike headquarters, which employed many people in the area. And when she entered the house, she expected to see both her daughters asleep.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
Later, that ex-girlfriend would reveal to police what he told her.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
John also showed that Gore knowingly tried to cover his tracks after the murder by texting friends about the evening.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
And despite her daughter being a trusted, responsible young woman, she was also at 13 still a child. And so Milana's mom did exactly what most parents would do. She called 911.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
I'm Anastasia Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
And so following protocol, police notified her school's administration, who then shared the news with the students and their families, hoping someone had information as to where Milana might be.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
And there, they stumbled on some articles of clothing that her friend recognized as belonging to Milana. They immediately retreated and contacted police.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
Westside Linear Park was a popular recreation spot for walking and hiking. But it was also big, with trails winding through some pretty secluded wooded areas. As officers moved deeper into the woods, they kept their eyes peeled for signs of the missing teen.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
Raising children can often feel like navigating a minefield of potential dangers. But for all of our modern-day methods for watching over our kids, from cell phones to doorbell cameras and GPS trackers, the risks to their safety never really goes away.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
investigators worked their way to the water. And as they lifted the blanket, their worst fears were confirmed. Half submerged in the water was the bruised and battered, unclothed body of 13-year-old Milana Lee. Given her young age, it was as horrific a crime scene that responding officers had ever encountered.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
We do want to warn you that the following content contains description of sexual assault and may be triggering for some.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
Upon closer look, officers also noticed bruising around her neck, a sign that Milana may have been strangled. Her state of undress suggested the motive.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
Figuring out who that person was started with the collection of evidence at the scene. A team of forensic investigators combed the area, searching for any clue, any fragment of evidence that might help piece together Milana's final moments.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
Defensive wounds showed clear signs that Milana had tried to fight off her attacker, and her broken fingernails were also carefully examined for possible DNA belonging to her killer.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
To answer that question, investigators would need to start building their timeline of her last known whereabouts on the day she disappeared.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
But there is a line between taking these healthy risks, the kind that build confidence and resilience, and the kind that, sometimes unknowingly, can lead to emotional, mental, or even physical danger.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
According to her cell phone data, Milana had left home in the early evening of Sunday, May 8th, while her mom was still at work. She and her phone then headed in the direction of a local outdoor shopping center where investigators hoped they could track down a witness that maybe would have spotted her there.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
So who was with her in those hours before her death? Was it a friend, a killer, or both?
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
As news spread of the tragedy, friends and strangers alike contributed to a growing memorial of flowers, stuffed animals and candles on the sidewalk adjacent to the park where Milana's body was found.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
Investigators' first lead came courtesy of Milana's cell phone location data, which led them to a shopping center not far from her home. And it was there that a young employee at a yogurt shop told police that she had seen Milana on the night police believed she was killed, and she wasn't alone.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
The very same wooded area in Westside Linear Park where Milana's body was found.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
which was also surprising because how would they have crossed paths? Daniel Gore had supposedly left school and was said to be living in a tent in the woods. While Milana was a middle schooler, living at home, new to the area, when investigators asked Milana's mom about her daughter's friendship with Daniel Gore, she said that she'd never heard of him.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
Milana's mother had prided herself in meeting all of her daughter's friends, so it was a shock for her to learn that Milana had been hanging out with this older boy.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
This is an off week for Anatomy of Murder, but we thought it would be a great opportunity to use the time to highlight a case where the family is still waiting for answers.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
We've talked about the concept of victimology obviously many times before, but that's because that is so important in every investigation. And that's going to be clear here, too, because we're the place that a person's death and that person's life really intersect. That really provides a roadmap to investigators, whether they're trying to figure out motive or even find the killer.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
Many of you will not have any idea what this is all about. It was a group called Criss Cross. It's because the two guys are this young hip hop duo. I think they were like 12 and 13 years old when they had their first big hit, Jump Jump, which of course has been going through my head since I first heard them talking about this. And their signature was that they would wear their pants backwards.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
And again, they just did it one day for fun when they're trying to figure out how they could stand out. But it became a thing.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
And Debra describes her son from the time he was very young as an old soul. He was this quiet kid who preferred the company of adults than often to his peers.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
And I thought, what is he using these toothbrushes for? At first, I was like, OK, he's using them for something. He's cleaning something. He's building something. But it was just such this odd thing that he's always just asking his mom for a new toothbrush.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
And this hobby was going to guide him into what he decided would be his future career. He wanted to be a mechanic. And so since he wanted that to be his career, he was working towards that. And that's why he decided to start Job Corps in Utah.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
I'm Anastasia Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
There was nothing about him that would seem to compromise him in any way.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
And Debra's reaction to them was visceral. No, not my son. And her reason was twofold. One, everything she knew about Anton, none of those things held true or possibilities for him. But that she was also worried that if this is what people were hypothesizing or talking about in the community, that that might also impact the detectives.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
And if they thought these things about her son, would they maybe not work as hard?
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
It is. It's a valid concern, right? Because while I have certainly dealt with my share of these types of cases, and when I say these types, I mean that were gang-related or drug-related or things like that, and I've seen detectives work as hard on those, for sure, as any other case. But I've also seen it go the other way too, right? I mean, that they, for some reason, the result isn't the same.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
It isn't the case that they're going to choose to put on the top of the pile. And so for Deborah, she just wanted to make sure that there was nothing that was going to unfairly distract them or dissuade them for trying to figure this out.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
The holidays are recently behind us and will soon be ringing in the new year.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
You know, I've never heard of a parent doing that before with investigators, at least not like that. You know, just hearing her talk about it, it was just so incredibly powerful. I can say, like, I was stunned by sadness.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
And it really showed by what she saw the very next morning. Those same detectives were out on the block, knocking on doors, speaking to people in the street. Were they planning to do that anyway the next day? Maybe. Or was it maybe that when they got up that morning, they remembered those home videos and they are like, we are getting out there right now to get working on this case.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
So as a recap, Anton was murdered between 8 and 9 p.m. That's not the middle of the night. It was April. Sunset that day was just a few minutes before 8 p.m. So while it was still nighttime, it wasn't really all that dark. And he was shot, remember, in front of his apartment complex, not in some remote, quiet area.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
So there's a strong possibility that there were people out there, which means that there were and are witnesses.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
With no answers and no witnesses forthcoming, at least to the police, Deborah decided to take matters into her own hands in the best way she could. So she and friends and family members, they literally took to the streets. It wasn't just with flyers. And yes, they did that to posting them on streetlights and mailboxes and wherever they could. But they literally stood out there with signs.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
You can tell by the title that this case is still unfortunately unsolved. But in that spirit of resolution, let's discuss it in hopes that in 2023, they will get that resolution they deserve.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
But investigators got nowhere. Just more dead ends. Silence. Another cold case.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
Before we hear from the cold case detective who works on this case, which is Detective Jacob Blass, and trust me, he does have keen insight on Anton's case, including new information that we haven't yet told you about. But again, we want to remind you it's an open investigation. And our goal here in AOM is, of course, always honoring the victim and telling their story.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
But also in this type of case, it's to get the word out. So here's the basic information for you to remember.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
If you have information, whether right now as you're hearing it or later on by the end or at any time at all, you can call the Fremont Police Department at 510-790-6900 or the Silent Witness hotline at 510-494-4856.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
But before becoming a member of the Fremont Police, Jacob had very different ambitions.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
Of course, all FBI investigators are not what you see on TV, you know, and you need the people that are sitting behind the desk or are working on the computer screens, the accountants that know how to crunch the numbers. But it wasn't exactly what he'd envisioned when he decided to sign up.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
But here's something interesting. The call didn't come in as a suspicious death or even a shooting.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
While, yes, of course, people hear gunshots. And, of course, at times, you know exactly what it is. But you don't always. You know, for those of you that haven't heard them, they can sound like other things. They can just sound like pop, pop, pop. They can sound like firecrackers. Sometimes it just gets lost in that cityscape noise. And it sounds like, at least for most, that's what happened here.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
And also just think of what it was called in for, right? A person unconscious on the ground. This is a city. They are very busy being EMTs and investigators. So are they getting out there in seconds or minutes, like when they hear that there are, like you said, Scott, shot, fired, or someone down a result of some violence? Or is it, again, not taking their time? Maybe it's the wrong way to put it.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
You know, I didn't grow up with brothers. I just had one. But it really sounds like what we read about so often. You know, there was that difficulty in that masculinity as they grew. But then that angst soon became a closeness that only brothers can share.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
but that those critical moments may have been lost by what the caller knew or didn't know when they placed that call.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
And so now that Jacob takes over the role as cold case investigator tasked with this case, he now on his own is going to start by looking deeply into Anton and who he was.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
And so there is nothing in Antone's life that is pointing to a motive for murder. So if it isn't about the person, you have to start to look more closely at the place.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
Now, let's remember the time that we're talking. We're talking earlier in the 2000s. And so during that time period from 2007 to 2011, the FBI estimated that approximately 13 percent of all homicides annually were gang related. And that was throughout the U.S.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
And again, you know, whether it is gang related or not, we hear about cases of mistaken ID all the time. You know, remember we featured one recently on AOM, Elliot Dickerson, wrong place, wrong time. They thought he was someone that had been in a fight. He wasn't. So again, not gang related, but mistaken ID.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
You know, the unfortunate thing with these gang rivalries is they really just take this violence to the street at times with no regard about the others, the innocents that get caught up in their melees.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
Now, here's a piece of information that adds more credence to the theory that Antone was innocently caught up in the crosshairs of maybe some sort of gang violence. And it has to do with another homicide.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
You know, any homicide can create fear in a community and fear of retaliation. But I think when it comes to the potential for it being perpetrated by gangs, there's even more of that.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
So knowing all these truths, one of the early things that Jacob did was try to incentivize people to come forward. And here's what he did.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
In April 2007, Anton was 19 years old, had just graduated high school. He went to Washington in Fremont, California, and his sights were set on soon heading off to Job Corps in Utah.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
And that reward today is up to $60,000. And here's why shining a spotlight on this case or any case like it just might help the investigation. It is because through this podcast and through you hitting play on your phone or wherever you listen to your podcast, it has reach.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
It has reach for people who may never have heard about this case before or didn't know Anton's name to now know it and to recognize maybe know how, if they know something, they can help.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
What better way to use our off weeks than to highlight previous AOMs that have featured those cases that are still waiting for answers, still waiting for accountability in the crimes.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
Well, I don't know that I've ever actually thought to myself about people that are incarcerated listening to podcasts. I mean, it makes perfect sense, right? They have a lot of time on their hands and they have access to computers, which are authorized in law libraries. And I don't know how that works with what they can watch or what they can listen to necessarily.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
But it also is not uncommon to hear about cell phones being smuggled in. So people do have a lot of access even when they're inside of prisons and jails.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
You know, when we were talking about this case and whether we were going to profile it at all, it doesn't necessarily have all the various legs or twists that we're able to give you on others. But that's exactly why we chose to talk about it today. Because this case, while it needs to be solved for Anton and his family, it represents so many that are out there. And what better platform do we have
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
then to try to get the word out on those too, to all of you, our AOM community, who have showed that you are like-minded and care as much about these cases and the people impacted as we do.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
Tune in next week for another new episode of Anatomy of Murder.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
So, what do you think, Chuck?
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
So, I mean, there was nothing I could do. And it was later that night that Deborah got a call.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
So you have police, investigators, onlookers, and they're all in front of this apartment complex that is just swarming. But the one person that wasn't amongst them was Antone. They wouldn't tell me anything.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
You know, in the way that Debra is describing this, we've talked about this almost out-of-body experience before here on AOM. And I even think some have used the exact same analogy.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
What better way also to start the new year than with victim advocacy and trying to help a family still very much in need. If you or anyone you know has any information about this case, please contact the Fremont, California police. Their info is on our website or contact us here at AOM.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
And in certain ways, I've always likened it to this fight or flight response. You know, you're there, it's happening, but your mind can't process it. So it really goes and is distracted by other things.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
And so as Deborah and her boyfriend are at the precinct and answering every question that's being put to them, obviously in Deborah's mind, she is just clinging to that hope that her son, who's in the hospital, remember, is still alive.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
So Debra and her boyfriend make their way to the hospital as quickly as humanly possible. And when they get there, Debra knows right where to go because she actually worked at the hospital. So she not only knows the layout, but she knows kind of exactly what happens in a situation like this. But this time she's on the other side of the counter.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
And the world that Deborah is facing from that moment on, you can really just describe it with one word. Dark. It is dark because her youngest has been taken by homicide. But on top of that, there's just this anger within her from being held back for those hours, answering questions by the detectives while her son was in the hospital, possibly dying.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
But in the meantime, it was also important to find out from Kevin's wife, Lisa, if she knew any reason why this George Taylor would have wanted to kill her husband. Because apparently, George was not just a neighbor, but a friend of both Kevin and Lisa James. And so Michelle and her partner intended to find out the answer to that question. But this is where she ran into a bit of a roadblock.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
And like Michelle said, you never know how different people are going to react in high-stress moments. But when you've worked a lot of homicide cases, including those initial conversations with family, you sometimes just get that feeling. And you have to trust that feeling or at least follow where it leads.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
Which unfortunately also brings into question why Lisa was lying on top of her son and telling him not to get up. It was supposedly to keep him safe after hearing the gunshots, but was it?
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
But in the meantime, thanks to Lisa's son, investigators did have another very real person of interest, the owner of that 65 Riviera that was seen speeding away from the scene.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
But there was one person that Michelle hoped might know a little bit more. And that was the woman George Taylor lived with, Lisa's close friend and neighbor Shelby Harris.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
Arguments? No. Shelby also told police that she didn't know of any problems in Lisa and Kevin's marriage, certainly nothing that would precipitate murder. You know Lisa fairly well? Yeah.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
And so George Taylor was brought in for questioning, and he agreed to talk to Michelle and explain his whereabouts and his cars on the night of the murder.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
But then he went on to claim that on occasion he would buy small quantities of marijuana from Kevin.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
Retired detective Michelle Amacone worked in law enforcement for 29 years, 20 of which were spent as a homicide detective in Southern California. And it is no exaggeration to say that she was a trailblazer.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
According to Taylor, that was why he had not stayed at Shelby's that night as usual, and why his car might have been seen parked near Kevin's house on the night of his murder.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
And you can just imagine, as George is talking and giving all these details about where he was and with whom, that Michelle is just taking it all in. Because like we've said, it's not always the truth that you expect to get from these interviews. Sometimes you're just gathering information that can either be corroborated or proven to be false.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
And for those of us that have worked in this line of work, we all know it can be just as valuable.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
Things were not looking promising for George Taylor. His car was seen fleeing the scene of a murder. He was clearly lying to police about where he was on the night of the murder. And while Michelle hadn't uncovered any reason why George might have targeted Kevin or any evidence yet that could put him at the scene, she also knew that there was a good chance that he was a flight risk.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
And she was wary to let him out of her sight.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
And so the detectives return the next day to pay George Taylor a visit in jail and give him another chance to come clean.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
The idea here is to see where he goes, who he talks to, and whether he is making any efforts to cover his tracks. But it doesn't exactly go according to plan.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
But two weeks after Kevin James' murder, the investigation took a very unexpected turn.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
On the night Kevin James was murdered in bed, a 1965 Buick Riviera belonging to George Taylor was spotted in front of the house, making Taylor the prime suspect in Kevin's murder.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
According to the girlfriend, Taylor was last seen leaving with two friends, Terrence Bledsoe and Joe Jensen, but she hadn't seen him since.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
And according to her, these so-called friends, Terrence and Joe, she knew they were trouble. But the person she feared the most was the person around whom the group seemed to gravitate, Shelby Harris.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
The caller was a 12-year-old child. He and his mother were asleep in his bedroom when they were awakened by the sound of multiple gunshots from inside the house.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
And now one of those people was missing. George Taylor's mother was convinced that something terrible had happened to her son.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
I think I agree. Look, I mean, she definitely seems cooperative. She's offering whatever info she has. So that goes against it. But again, like, as we know, like most things are possible, but if true that she was involved or behind it, it's puzzling. Why? And I think there we have to really think about, well, how could George's disappearance be connected to Kevin's murders?
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
And just like you talked about there, there's these two distinct paths, I think here too, right? If he was involved, well, then he could be on the run and that would make perfect sense. You don't want to get caught and be held accountable. But, you know, if he's not on the run, but he still committed the crime, could it be that someone was seeking retribution? We know that that happens.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
People don't want to leave it to the police. And sometimes they want to get revenge on their own. Or maybe if he did it, I don't know, maybe he wasn't alone. And this way people could or someone could forever keep him quiet.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
However, Joe's buddy Terrence Bledsoe proved to be a little more forthcoming.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
also claimed he knew nothing about the disappearance of his buddy George Taylor. But as it turned out, his location would not be a mystery for much longer.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
George Taylor had been shot once in the back of the head.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
A forensic examination would reveal that Taylor was likely killed by a .40 caliber handgun, the same caliber weapon that killed Kevin James.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
All detectives could do was keep pulling the thread and see what unraveled. And we'll unravel the rest of this story in part two, so be sure to listen.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
Tune in next week for another new episode of Anatomy of Murder. Anatomy of Murder is an AudioChuck original produced and created by Weinberger Media and Fresetti Media.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
Sheriff's deputies were the first to arrive. When they entered the primary bedroom, they were met with a horrific scene. Lisa's husband and the 12-year-old's father, Kevin James, was lying lifeless under blankets stained with a massive amount of blood.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
This episode was written and produced by Walker Lamond, researched by Kate Cooper, edited by Ali Sirwa, and Philjean Grande. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
The James home was located in a middle-class neighborhood, not an area with a particularly high crime rate. So with the arrival of police on the quiet suburban street, neighbors were understandably alarmed.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
I'm Anastasia Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
So no immediate signs of a break-in, no broken glass, overturned furniture, or rummaged drawers. Nothing out of the ordinary, but in the primary bedroom, that was a different story.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
Not only were there no signs of a struggle, it appeared that Kevin had been shot point blank in the head, likely while he was still asleep.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
If you're a longtime listener of this show or just a true crime fan in general, you probably can't count the number of times you've heard how DNA or modern forensics have helped solve a crime or catch a killer. So it's sometimes hard to believe just how new most of this science really is.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
There were no signs that Kevin ever had a chance to defend himself or pose any threat at all to the shooter, so the theory that he might have surprised a home invader in the act of a robbery seemed unlikely.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
By all accounts, Kevin was an easygoing family man with no enemies. And so far, the crime scene itself was not offering investigators any clues about who might have wanted him dead.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
And so Lisa had fallen asleep in the same room of her 12-year-old son. But shortly before 11, she had woken up in a panic.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
Not only had no one come in through the sliding door, there was no sign anyone could have accessed the second floor at all.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
But, you know, let's think about what Lisa says. Like, yes, on its face, it doesn't sound likely with the things that were observed by Michelle and the other investigators. But again, having seen it many times, I have to say that when people panic at times, they can lose that focus, especially after hearing gunshots. In a few moments, she realizes her husband is dead.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
Like, there is so much going on. At least temporarily, it could have been a blur, you know. But here, there was another witness in the house that was able to give police his account of that night. And that was Lisa and Kevin's 12-year-old son. And as you can hear in the 911 call, he demonstrated remarkable composure and maturity when talking with the police.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
And that continued when he was interviewed by Michelle.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
He did. She laid on top of him. Then they both heard the unmistakable sound of three gunshots in quick succession from inside the house. But while his mother's account ended with what she heard, this young boy was able to also tell police what he saw.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
And the answer? What we often describe as old school detective work. Gathering facts, building a timeline, and speaking with people. Witnesses, sometimes over and over, until the potential lies are exposed and the truth shakes out.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
The car was a distinctive 1965 Buick Riviera, a one-of-a-kind vintage car that was even customized to be heard from blocks around.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
But he was able to confirm that whoever he saw running from their house towards the car, he wasn't alone.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
This was just the first thread in a tangled web of lies, betrayal, manipulation, and murder.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 1 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
Moments later, incredibly, his 12-year-old son spotted a man running from the house and getting into a car impossible not to recognize, an enormous, customized 1965 Buick Riviera.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
The name Darlene Fisher was not just unknown to law enforcement, it didn't turn up anywhere. No car registrations, no social media, nothing.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
And thanks to the Amber Alert and the resulting media attention on the case, they were getting other leads as well.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
It turned out that Bobbie Jo was a popular and prolific poster on Ratter Chatter, which she used not just to generate business, but to share her love of terriers, dog breeding, and even more personal aspects of her life.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
But when investigators traced that user's account information, it actually led to the residence of a man named Kevin Montgomery.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
This Lisa Montgomery had asked the woman in Georgia to teach her 13-year-old daughter to show dogs. And they had actually struck a deal to do that. But here is where the strange part came in.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
Along with preparing for the arrival of their first child, Bobby Joe was also the proud proprietor of Happy Haven Farms, a dog breeding business she and Zeb ran from home that specialized in rat terriers.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
It was a major break in the search for Bobby Joe Stinnett's killer and the possible location of her kidnapped infant daughter.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
Investigators had always suspected that the woman who messaged Bobbie Jo Stinnett the day before her murder had used a fake name and email. But this Darlene Fisher made the mistake of not masking her IP address, which was traced back to a house in Melbourne, Kansas.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
And since this was now an abduction that had potentially crossed state lines, the FBI was called in to assist.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
In the approximately 48 hours since the murder, this had understandably already become a high-profile case, and the FBI agents were advocating for a bit more caution.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
At the sound of the dogs barking, Kevin Montgomery came out of the house and met investigators on the front porch.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
And let's just set the scene. Randy was confident that the person who arranged to meet Bobby Joe to see her dogs was also the person that had killed her. And that person's email was traced right back to this address.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
This was first and foremost a recovery mission, so Randy's instinct was to first check on the baby's condition.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
With their first baby on the way, a daughter, Bobbie Jo, sometimes worried that if she went into labor or there was some type of emergency, Zeb wouldn't make it back in time. But thankfully, Bobbie Jo's mother lived nearby and had always promised to be just a phone call away.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
It was at that point that Randy began to think that maybe Kevin had no idea why the police were in his house, but that maybe his wife, Lisa, did.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
Because again, they're accomplishing more than one thing here. Like by just getting her to say anything, well, let her talk. And if she's telling the truth, they'll figure that out. And if she's lying, well, then they can use her words to prove it. They're also separating two people that as while he's thinking maybe Kevin doesn't know, they don't know it.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
You know, Scott, as I'm even hearing Randy talk about this, it really strikes me at this point like that chess match where each step is hopefully getting them closer to success. to where they want to get, which is going to be checkmate to figure out who did this and pull together the case.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
Randy's gut told him that the woman on the couch was Bobby Joe's killer. And the baby she was holding was not her own.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
With the baby safely in the hands of law enforcement, Randy led the woman outside and towards his car.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
Randy then asked Lisa Montgomery to get out of the cold and sit in his car. He hoped that the longer he kept her talking, the closer he would get to the truth.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
Bobbie Jo assured her mom that she would be there and then said that she had to jump off the phone because someone had arrived at the house who was interested in buying a puppy.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
Then Randy got an assist from an unlikely source as a car pulled up into the driveway.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
At that point, the clock was still ticking, not just because it was important to try and keep her talking, but also because Randy suspected that the reporters might be right behind them and their presence would only complicate, even jeopardize, an arrest.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
And the conversation they would soon have would reveal the disturbing truth about Bobby Joe's murder. By the time Detective Randy Strong sat down with Lisa Montgomery, he had plenty of suspect interviews under his belt. But even he knew that this was a special case.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
And eventually that perseverance and those cigarettes, they paid off.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
But as she approached, she noticed that despite the cold winter afternoon, the front door of the small craftsman-style house was wide open. And when she called out to Bobby Joe, there was no answer.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
Montgomery had gotten directions to Bobby Joe's house off the internet, and she took blacktop highways to avoid towns where she might be spotted and recognized.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
Randy described Montgomery's demeanor as eerily calm and devoid of emotion when she described what she did next.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
She then graphically described how she took the unborn child literally from Bobby Joe's body and then carried the baby girl from the house. Montgomery then fled the scene in the direction of her home in Kansas, more than a two-hour drive away. But she did make a stop along the way.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
It was about as full and disturbing as a statement like this can get. Lisa Montgomery had not just admitted to premeditated murder and kidnapping. She had admitted to carrying out a crime so heinous, so inhuman, it was almost unthinkable.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
Apparently convinced that his wife had been pregnant for the last nine months, Kevin Montgomery did not question the sudden arrival of a new baby, or, while somewhat baffling, the absurdity of meeting that new baby in the parking lot of a chain restaurant instead of a hospital.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
She found her daughter lying on the floor of a small back bedroom. There was a lot of blood. As she rushed to her daughter's side, it was difficult to understand exactly what she was seeing. But it appeared that Bobby Joe had suffered a catastrophic injury to her abdomen.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
You know, Scott, obviously for anyone, us included, hearing this, it's one of those things that your head is like flipping around like over and over because you just can't even believe that this is horrendously true. Like there's obviously much more going on here, you know, whether it is mental health component or some motive that has not yet become clear.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
You know, when I'm looking at this as a prosecutor, it's like, well, did she know what she was doing is wrong, right? Because that is the criteria for holding someone accountable for their actions. And here, look, I mean, she faked the legitimacy of birthing a child, and then she continued to lie to law enforcement. And as you've said, like, you know, multiple times in this
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
Like it was so pre-planned and that all goes against some sort of total mental break with reality, albeit horribly puzzling.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
DNA testing eventually confirmed the baby's identity as Bobbie Jo and Zeb's daughter. The infant was returned to her father, miraculously physically unharmed except for a small cut above her eye, a cut that doctors say was caused by the killer's blade.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
We do know that Montgomery was on the Ratter Chatter message board and followed along as Bobbie Jo discussed her experience as an expectant mother. But was there any other reason to target her in particular?
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
Apparently, in the week prior to the homicide, Montgomery's ex-husband had filed for custody of their teenage children that had been living with their mother.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
Out of respect for Bobbie Jo and her family, we've chosen not to play the recording of that call, as it is particularly graphic and distressing. Randy Strong, who was at the police station that afternoon, was there when first responders were dispatched to the scene.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
It was an elaborate and outrageous lie that would ultimately lead to a horrendous act of murder and all the terrible rest as you've heard it, all to keep from getting exposed.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
A forensic search of her computer also uncovered internet searches related to how to perform a cesarean section, how to register birth certificates from a home birth, and the location of nearby birthing clinics.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
And if that wasn't enough, there was also the DNA that was still found on Montgomery's own hands.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
At her subsequent trial, prosecutors argued that Montgomery's actions were calculated and deliberate, driven by her desperation to maintain her fabricated pregnancy story.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
On January 13, 2021, Lisa Montgomery was executed by lethal injection in the U.S. Penitentiary in Terre Haute, Indiana, becoming the first woman executed by the federal government in 67 years.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
It's been just over 20 years since the horrible day since Bobbie Jo's daughter lost her mom, and almost her own life before it had even begun. But she has never forgotten the efforts of the many people that came to her rescue and fought for justice for her mother.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
I'm Anastasia Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
Scott and I debated whether we would cover this case. Could we discuss it without being overly graphic in this already extremely disturbing crime? But we decided that Bobbie Jo lost her life in this most terrifying and brutal of ways. And remembering her is exactly why we would cover it, but hopefully as carefully as we could. Bobbie Jo is so excited to be a new mom.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
She was loved by her husband, her family, her friends. The crime committed against her is unexplainable. We're so thankful that law enforcement was able to save her infant daughter and allow her to grow up surrounded by her dad and true family. She lost her mom even before she was actually born. Bobbie Jo, we remember you today for who you were and the mother you were getting ready to be.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
And to your daughter, husband, and family, we hope you are well and continue to feel Bobbie Jo's love from above. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? I approve!
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
But incredibly, that was not the full extent of this shocking tragedy. The paramedic on scene reported that the umbilical cord attached to Bobbie Jo's womb had been severed. and her baby was missing.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
Needless to say, Bobby Joe's injuries were severe and horrific. But they also told a story.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
Before we begin, we just wanted to let you know that today's story includes some particularly disturbing content and graphic details.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
Even veteran homicide investigators were struck by both the shocking violence of this murder and the urgency of the situation.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
In December of 2004, an almost unthinkable crime occurred in the tiny town of Skidmore, Missouri.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
The brutal murder left Bobbie Jo's family and the community in utter shock. The motive, while deeply disturbing, was clear. Someone murdered Bobbie Jo to kidnap her unborn child.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
And they immediately began by looking for any witnesses that may have seen who had been at the Stinnett's house that afternoon.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
But the sheriff was determined to use all means available to find this baby. And an Amber Alert remained a priority. With precious seconds ticking and a young life potentially on the line, the sheriff had no patience for the protocol.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
With a population of less than 300, Skidmore, Missouri is what you might imagine when you hear the words Small Town, USA.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
Named for Amber Hegerman, a nine-year-old abducted in Texas in 1996, the Amber Alert system has helped to recover thousands of missing or abducted children with the help of the public and the media. It's kind of like a full-court press that can pay immediate dividends, but can also have another effect, turning a small-town tragedy into a national headline.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
The crime scene itself was beyond disturbing. It was unlike anything these investigators had ever seen before.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
So the presumption would be that either Bobbie Jo knew or was expecting her attacker, but whoever that person was, he or she left very few clues at the scene.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
Shortly after that call, Bobby Joe's mom called her again to confirm the ride home. But instead of Bobby Joe, she got the answering machine. And this was one of those machines where you would have been able to hear the incoming message being played on the speaker while it was being recorded. So now as investigators listened, they heard the recorded message from Bobby Joe's mom.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
According to her husband, Zeb, he didn't have a record of who might have made the appointment. But since most of her business was conducted online, that information surely would be found somewhere on his wife's computer.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
As you can hear from Randy's description, investigators were trying not to get tunnel vision and were leaving open the possibility that this person could have just been a witness, not necessarily the killer. But Randy also had a gut feeling that there was something off about that name and that email.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
One of the risks of trying to extract DNA from a sample of biological evidence like a hair, a spot of blood, or in this case, semen, is that you have to use up some of that sample in order to test it.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
That news was a hard pill to swallow. But it wasn't the last of the challenges his cold case investigation would face.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
The DNA testing was on hold. The bullet that killed her was missing. But taking a cue from Vicki's own family, John deployed one of a detective's most effective weapons, patience.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
That DNA profile was then entered into CODIS. And within days, the computer had returned a result that was now 43 years in the making.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
Vicki went on to become the first person in her family to graduate from college. And by 1979, when she was 28 years old, she had a promising career.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
A deep dive into Taylor's background revealed a long criminal history, including a murder charge for fatally shooting a man during an armed robbery in Washington.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
But here's the thing, like DNA is fantastic. I mean, it is amazing evidence, prosecutors, investigators, we all love it for the obvious reasons. But here's what DNA doesn't give you. It doesn't tell you when it was placed or left there, right? So if I'm the defense, I'm going to say, if this is a case, like, hey, this is all coincidence. It doesn't equal proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
Like, did they know each other? Was this a consensual interaction between them? Was evidence tainted? Was there transfer? You know, there's multiple possibilities here. for the defense. So like for me, when I'm hearing it, it's just always the important reminder that yes, you can place a specific individual to the item.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
So yes, he's going to be linked to Vicky through this DNA, but that is far from all the work that investigators need to do. But as you and I both know, Scott, it is a fantastic start. And Vicky's family, like they had waited for 43 years for any good news in regards to her murder investigation. And now finally, John could deliver.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
And while Taylor had been in and out of the criminal justice system for years, there was no record of a fixed address since 2019. So investigators really didn't know if he was still in the area.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
But this is where it helped to have the nation's capital as your next-door neighbor. John was able to call in a few favors from the federal government to help him track Taylor down.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
It's safe to say that Taylor was not expecting visitors, nor did the nursing home staff know that they were harboring a suspected killer.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
And as a member of that county's cold case squad, John was also an integral part of not just keeping Vicki's story alive, but helping to write its stunning conclusion.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
And getting that flat denial was huge because just having Taylor's DNA present on Vicky's clothing did not necessarily mean he was the person who had assaulted her. If he claimed to have known her, however unlikely, he could also have claimed that their encounter was consensual.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
On June 22nd, 2023, with an assist from the U.S. Marshals and the D.C. Metro Police, deputies from Charles County returned to Taylor's nursing home.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
The investigation had required an infinite amount of patience. And with the finish line in sight, John knew that this was not the time to rush their conversation.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
Taylor denied having anything to do with Vicki's murder. But as the interview went on, he did start to allow for the possibility that he had in fact been in contact with her.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
And what about the possibility that back in 1979, Taylor had known Vicki, even briefly? We know that her boyfriend James had gotten mixed review from friends, and Vicki had left work for a long lunch break on the day she was killed. Was it possible that she was also involved in another relationship outside of dating her boyfriend?
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
As the interview stretched into its second hour, investigators pressed him for the truth. Instead, Taylor offered up a shocking confession, at least of sorts.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
And you know, Scott, I have to say here, like when I was hearing this and thinking about this, just having had similar defenses multiple times over the years, like I always thought to this myself of what I would term like a ghost offense. A defendant would make up this mystery person, yet there was zero other evidence, even of their existence usually. So they're not an identifiable person.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
According to her boyfriend, James, who also worked at the Department of Agriculture. Vicki wanted to use his car to run some errands during her lunch break, and so she stopped by his desk on her way out.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
And by no coincidence, to me, it was always the ghost that did all the acts that were criminally subscribed to the suspect, what he was being accused of. So here, even though he is talking about this sexual encounter, which would still be sexual assault, non-consensual by the way he's describing it. To him, it's the murder that he's trying to keep himself a part of.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
And yet right here, like it's this mystery person who must have done all that.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
And as we know, it absolutely would be stepping over the line, although I think that he thinks he just got himself out of the murder. But again, if you're involved in certain felonies and sexual assault is absolutely one of them, if someone is killed during the course of that felony or soon thereafter, that is felony murder.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
So that's exactly the type of thing that John and any other investigator who is working these type of cases knows that you just need to keep them talking and then you can ferret out the truth from what they say, at least hopefully.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
From the prosecution's side, Taylor's DNA, coupled with Vicky's state of undress when she was discovered murdered, led to the only reasonable conclusion in this case that she was sexually assaulted and then killed. But in a case dating back over four decades, the trial would have significant challenges.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
On the day Vicki disappeared, the main witness who could testify to her whereabouts and timeline was her boyfriend, James. But by 2023, he had passed away.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
The co-worker's name was Mary Hickson, and assuming she was of similar age to Vicki, she would likely have been about 73 years old.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
During the trial, Mary testified about Vicki's movements on the last day she was alive.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
Taylor was found guilty on all charges. And while he never made a full confession or allocution of his crimes, the combination of evidence and witness testimony helped paint a compelling picture of a brutal picture of Vicki's last fateful day alive.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
According to co-workers, Vicki had never returned from her lunch break. And while this was the age before cell phones, and it was not unheard of to be out of touch for a few hours, it was completely out of character for Vicki, who was known to be both reliable and punctual.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
But her family also expressed relief and gratitude for justice finally being achieved after 45 years. Vicki's murder had obviously affected all of them, her parents, siblings, her son, and even the grandsons she had never had a chance to meet.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
Shortly after the arrest, Vicki's relatives gathered at the Charles County Sheriff's headquarters for a press conference. Among them was a sister that is a retired homicide detective from California, a brother who was a retired firefighter, a nephew who was a police officer in Texas, and her then 51-year-old son, a lawyer and former federal prosecutor from Georgia.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
In the shadow of tragedy, they had dedicated their own lives to service and the pursuit of public safety and justice.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
I went onto their website before recording this episode and was moved by the photograph of all the backpacks being donated as part of one of their latest initiatives. Think how important a simple backpack can be to a child who otherwise perhaps cannot afford one.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
You can learn more about Vicki, the foundation, or donate by going to their website, the Vicki Belk Foundation at vickibelkfoundation.org. You can also find the link on the AOM website page connected to this story. In July 2024, Vicki's sister Judy wrote a message to the young people receiving support from the foundation and to those that help keep the foundation moving forward.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
And I quote, Congratulations to all the 2024 VBS recipients and to the donors who continue to keep Vicki's legacy alive. And to this AOM community, we say, by learning about Vicki and her story, you too are all helping to keep Vicki's memory and her legacy alive.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
By the next morning, Vicki still hadn't shown up at either his home in Maryland or her family's home in Virginia. So James decided it was time to call police and report her missing.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
Tune in next week for another new episode of Anatomy of Murder. Anatomy of Murder is an AudioChuck original. Produced and created by Weinberger Media and Fresetti Media.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
This episode was written and produced by Walker Lamond. Researched by Kate Cooper. Edited by Ali Sirwa and Philjean Grande. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? No!
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
Bad relationship could suggest that maybe Vicki had left on her own accord. But a bad relationship could also suggest a possible motive. And an obvious first suspect if Vicky had indeed fallen victim to foul play.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
But not only were there no signs of Vicky, there were also no indications that James was hiding something. Coworkers could vouch for his whereabouts the previous day, and his concern for his girlfriend seemed genuine.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
Two days after Vicki was reported missing, her case would take a dramatic and tragic turn.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
The unidentified woman had suffered a single gunshot wound to the head, and by her positioning and state of undress, it appeared that she had also likely been sexually assaulted.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
the woman in the woods was positively identified as Vicki Lynn Belk. Two weeks earlier, she'd been the maid of honor in her sister's wedding. Now the family would be gathering for her funeral.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
During the autopsy, examiners were able to recover the bullet that had killed her and confirmed that Vicky had been sexually assaulted. And while DNA testing was not possible, detectives knew that any biological evidence of either the sexual assault or the murder would be crucial down the road.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
I'm Anastasia Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
The same afternoon Vicki was located, her boyfriend's car was found abandoned in southeast D.C., not too far from where it had been parked in the RFK lot. The car was searched and fingerprinted, but it yielded no clues to who might be behind Vicki's brutal murder.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
And so, you know, Scott, just talking about the timeframe, again, and the limitations of that era, we're in the 1970s, far from all the technological advancements we have today. It really came down to what, you know, we call that gumshoe police work. Canvases, having to use the...
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
basic tools of investigation, fingerprints, things like that, which as you and I know, even though we have so many advancements today, most work and very often it still relies on that good old fashioned knocking on doors and talking to people.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
And so police had those conversations. And according to Vicky's friends and family, she was the last person to have any enemies or even associate with anyone that might want to do her harm. So investigators really did ultimately have very few leads.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
The pain and trauma that a violent crime inflicts on a victim's family can be not just life-changing, but multi-generational in its lasting impact.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
Over the next two decades, the Washington, D.C. area would experience a dramatic increase in its homicide rate, and Vicki's family worried that her murder would be buried under the pile of unsolved murders that was growing every year.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
When 28-year-old Vicki Lynn Belk, who was also the mother of a young son, was murdered in 1979, police were left with very few clues to who was responsible.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
The case went cold for years. But detectives in Maryland never gave up hope that one day her murder would be solved.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
Over the previous 30 years, Vicki's family had never given up hope that police would one day have the evidence to find her killer and bring him to justice. And the fact that her case was being reopened was welcome news.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
Whether that means becoming a victim's advocate, starting a charitable organization, becoming a police officer, or even going to law school, sometimes surviving can also mean thriving.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
But as we know, DNA science, especially 20 years ago, was not a magic wand. It took time, resources and expertise that were often in short supply. And that was the case in Maryland.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
Most people that knew Ernie saw a dedicated and hardworking young dad who was working two jobs to support his family. One at a wooden bat manufacturer and another covering the night shift at Little Caesars. But police also knew that given Ernie's past, he was not unfamiliar with the darker side of Titus County.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
But remember, there was a good reason to believe that Ernie knew his attackers, or at least they knew him. Because according to Samantha, they referred to him by name and to his father, Big Ernie.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
But there was no sign of Ernie or his kidnappers at either his father's home or grandfather's house, and neither was able to offer any clue to Ernie's whereabouts.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
Along with taking care of the kids, Samantha hosted a YouTube channel where she mostly posted makeup tutorials and beauty tips.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
But recently, her videos had gotten more personal and more popular as she shared details of her home life, her marriage, and the challenges of raising five kids.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
In fact, not long before she'd filed a complaint with local police after a recent argument, accusing Ernie of being physical with her. However, no charges were ever filed against him.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
But, you know, I'm sitting here listening to what she is posting on YouTube. You're still married, but you're talking about the difficulties in your marriage. Now, there's one thing to talk about things openly and try to support other people and this online community. But you also start to wonder, is she starting to paint a purposeful picture? And I don't know.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
Ernie's family often struggled to make ends meet, and it hadn't been easy in various ways, including when his dad spent some time in prison. So you can imagine how gaming could provide an escape from those often painful realities of everyday life.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
I think I can see this going both ways because we just don't know if her claims about Ernie, whether they were true or untrue.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
She took a nap. Not exactly what you'd expect from the grieving and traumatized wife of a man who had recently been kidnapped and who had five young kids in the mix, and not with her at present. Those kids alone, you'd think, and would hope would cause audible concern.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
By the time she was interviewed by investigators, Samantha once again found herself in the center of the spotlight.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
Up to this point, Samantha had denied recognizing any of the men who tied her up and abducted her husband. But now she was being asked to speculate.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
Samantha had met Sanford through her friend, Charla, and even knew exactly where they both were at that very minute.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
And from there, in response, Samantha started naming names, revealing that she may know one or more of the men involved in the abduction of her husband.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
As for Samantha, she was attempting to distance herself from Sanford and the assault against her husband. In this recorded audio, you can hear how quickly her demeanor has changed from being defiant, almost bored, to being this tearful, scared informant.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
At the sheriff's office, Sanford seemed to know that the jig was up and was surprisingly cooperative, quickly admitting his relationship with Samantha and the fact that he had been to her and Ernie's home.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
That's the voice of David Cauley, who in 2015 was a newly hired assistant DA in Titus County, Texas. His first year on the job would be what is sometimes referred to as a baptism by fire, as he would soon find himself embroiled in one of the darkest and most senseless crimes of his entire career.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
Sanford proceeded to lead the other men inside. But according to him, the planned beating quickly got out of hand.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
The three men put Ernie's unconscious body into the back of Samantha's truck. Considering the viciousness of the beating and the attacker's lack of mercy, the ending seemed inevitable.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
It was only then that detectives in Titus County could confirm that Ernie Ibarra was deceased and the cause of death was homicide.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
While in custody, Sanford and Ponce confessed to their roles in the crime, detailing how they, along with Rimes, coordinated and carried out the attack on Ernie Ibarra. So, you know, Scott, you have to kind of come back first to Samantha here. You know, is it possible that she's telling the truth, you know, from the beginning that she had nothing to do with her husband's murder?
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
But all I can think about when I even ask myself that question is like, why would these guys do this but for her?
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
But yet to me, it just kind of defies common sense, right? Like why they would do this but for her. But I definitely agree that her not giving it to investigators right away could absolutely, whether she's in it or not, could be partially thinking about herself, not only repercussions with the police, but at the hands of these guys.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
Samantha continued to deny having any role in the plot to kill her husband. But there was one thing she had not counted on, the digital evidence she had left behind on her cell phone.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
The masked men had dragged both of them from bed, beaten Ernie severely, and then abducted him from the house, all while their five children were sleeping just a few feet away.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
According to Sanford, the initial plan did not actually include the home invasion.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
Even after her husband was beaten, kidnapped, and shot to death, her cell phone records show that she made efforts to assist the perpetrators in concealing the crime, further proof that she was complicit in the murder.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
All four suspects would eventually be charged with aggravated kidnapping and murder, with Walford facing additional charges due to her role in planning Ernie's death.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
In two separate trials, Octavius Rimes was convicted and sentenced to 23 years for aggravated kidnapping in Titus County and an additional 75 years for murder in Camp County.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
During his testimony, Jonathan Sanford recounted the cold-blooded execution of Ernie Ibarra, all the while careful to blame Jose Ponce with pulling the trigger.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
Walford continued to maintain her innocence and ultimately decided to take a specific approach to avoiding blame.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
As for her motive, we can only speculate, but testimony from several witnesses revealed that this may not have even been the first time Walford had tried to put her plan into action.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
Multiple witnesses also came to Ernie's defense against her allegations of abuse.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
A jury found Samantha Walford guilty of murder and sentenced her to 99 years in prison on top of a 50-year sentence for kidnapping.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
His loss was made especially painful because it sadly also meant the loss of her grandchildren as well.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
Murder causes such pain in so many ways. Ernie Ibarra didn't have an easy start, but had landed in a place where he was happy, and all he wanted was to care for his family, his children, and work hard at his two jobs to provide for them. Rather than end the marriage, if that's what she wanted to do, his wife orchestrated his assassination.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
At the hands of his killers, she took Ernie from this earth and from all five of their kids. Their lives will be impacted forever. We hope that they are well and are being wrapped in love as they continue to heal. We will be off next week, but Anatomy of Murder will be back the following week with an all-new episode.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
The young mother of five described to the dispatcher what sounded like an incredibly terrifying ordeal.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
I'm Anastasia Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
a brutal home invasion in the middle of the night while their children slept. It's a scenario right out of a parent's worst nightmares.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
The men then proceeded to drag a barely conscious Ernie from the house to Samantha's truck before taking her keys and driving off to parts unknown. Miraculously, the couple's children were left unharmed.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
It's no secret that people all across the world are spending more and more of their time online for all sorts of reasons.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
After confirming Samantha was not in need of immediate medical attention, officers asked her to describe the intruders as best she could. Mount Pleasant was a small town, and there was a good chance that the men, and her husband, had not gotten far.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
Her description of the men wasn't much to go on, and while typically officers would start canvassing the neighborhood, looking for both possible suspects and witnesses, in this case, that would prove difficult.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
And so in those first moments of the investigation, law enforcement just had Samantha's version of the events to go on. But even early on, detectives were starting to suspect that Samantha was not being totally truthful about what had happened. There was something off about her answers and her demeanor that didn't quite fit with an actual victim of such a horrific crime.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
there were other signs that also indicated that Samantha's story wasn't quite adding up.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
There was also the matter of how Samantha had managed to call her mother on her cell phone while she was still bound and gagged and why she didn't just call 911.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
And many can understand the appeal. Becoming an Instagram influencer or the hero in a video game can offer an escape from our normal lives, letting us become a very different version of ourselves with little or no repercussions.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
In the early hours of February 20th, 2015, 29-year-old Ernie Ibarra was awoken by masked men, beaten and then abducted from his home outside Mount Pleasant, Texas.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
But there was also something a little off about her behavior. And some details of the crime scene just didn't line up with her version of the assault. You know, Scott, there really are a bunch of things here that we can talk about. You know, one thing, the way the police right away were questioning about the entry.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
But I just thought it was so interesting that apparently these guys just come in and know exactly where to go. And it's not like we're talking about a one level, you know, three room house. Like they had to go up kind of an intricate entryway upstairs. But apparently they found their targets right away.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
And there is one other thing that we'd just be remiss not to mention is like her dialing her phone. Remember, they find her with her mouth gagged, yet you don't hear anything from the 911 caller. I think it was her mom talking about her voice being muffled or anything. It just seems like almost like a contortionist move, just bizarre.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
And then there was also this, which in some ways is the most disturbing of it all. The whole time she was recounting the details of her husband's violent abduction, she never once checked on her five young kids, who were all still asleep in their room right next to where the intruders had supposedly snatched Samantha and Ernie from their beds.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
Ernie Ibarra was born on Christmas Day 1985 in Mount Pleasant, Texas, a town about a two-hour drive from Dallas and not far from the borders with Oklahoma and Arkansas.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
So obviously, Samantha's behavior was raising some eyebrows. But for at least the immediate aftermath of this home invasion and abduction, at least until proven otherwise, she was still a victim. So investigators had to put her suspicious behavior aside and act on the little information that they had and the very real possibility that Ernie had been abducted and his life was in danger.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
The two detectives asked to take a tour of the house with Henry leading the way.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
The more time the detective spent with Henry, the more he seemed to have a strange take on his relationship with Cassandra. Because according to 53-year-old Henry, it was never a romantic relationship at all.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
And again, Scott, that term you always use, like BRF, big red flag. If concerned, why not call the police or at least notify her family that he was worried that she wasn't planning to come back? Like something definitely does make you sit up from the second you hear it.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
And again, during this conversation, it is now the end of June 2018. And at this point, Cassandra's been missing for nearly five months. Detectives have strong suspicions that her partner Henry knows much more than he's telling them. But they also still can't discount the idea that she had been planning on leaving Henry and maybe leaving their one-year-old daughter at home.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
There was also internet searches made on Cassandra's phone that indicated she was looking into ways that she could add Henry's name to her daughter's birth certificate to make him financially responsible to care for their child. She was even searching for local hotels and had sent messages asking a friend to send her $300 via PayPal.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
In short, she was making plans, maybe plans that she was stopped from carrying out.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
Chad hoped that these two colleagues could help piece together a part of the story, or at least help corroborate Henry's version of events. Chad started with Henry's female colleague.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
So Henry had revealed to this partner of five years that he was not only having a relationship with another woman, but that he was the father of her child.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
Nadina couldn't offer any insight into what else may have happened on February 1st. She hadn't known Cassandra even existed, so she couldn't provide any information about her possible whereabouts. But Chad hoped that Henry's other business partner, a man named Julian, might have had more information to share.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
Which means Cassandra may have been missing for over four months. So you can imagine why her family was overwhelmed with fear and worry that something terrible had happened to her. and why her case would have been forwarded to detectives in major crimes. Another reason for concern? Cassandra was a new mother who had left behind a one-year-old baby daughter.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
And why was this important? Because supposedly Henry wasn't allowed to open bank accounts due to his federal probation and financial misdemeanors. So Julian had opened some for him and he'd acquired property on Henry's behalf too.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
During their search for Cassandra, detectives had now stumbled on evidence of a money laundering scheme. But in addition to painting a clearer picture of Henry Steiger and his criminal background, it also gave them good reason to obtain a search warrant for his property. Whether that search would also reveal clues about Cassandra's fate was still unknown.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
And it's all about Chad's background, which is obviously unrelated to a missing persons or any potential murder investigation. And it just shows how all these things that you may not even realize how they can really help connect dots and move investigations forward, how they can be utilized. Like it's Chad's experience in white collar crime that really now started to help move things quickly.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
So a thorough search warrant execution often takes a really long time. I mean, it can take, on the quick end, many hours, working methodically around the room, looking inside everything. And one officer, while doing that, was searching the garage, made a huge find.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
a packed suitcase filled with items belonging to Cassandra. Evidence that maybe she was planning a trip, but that she never reached her destination.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
As for Henry Steiger, he was not exactly doing the kinds of things typical, at least for an innocent man.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
The detectives' hunch about Steiger skipping town were right. At his residence, they found packed suitcases by the front door.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
In the meantime, another detective had begun building a picture of all the other known associates of Henry Steiger that he may have contacted to help him make his escape from Pensacola. And what they found was that Henry enjoyed a hobby of beekeeping, and he had a friend in the beekeeping world named William Shelby Johnson.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
The interview didn't last long with the friend offering up a little help. But shortly after being escorted out of the building, Henry's buddy made a quick beeline back to the station.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
It is a smell all too familiar for those in the field that can signal the arrival of a critical turn in an investigation, often with the most tragic results.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
The forensic pathologist would later determine that the cause of death was homicidal violence of undetermined means. In short, she had been murdered. And her body was stored in a place where someone hoped she'd never be found.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
Detectives began their questioning by asking Steiger again about his relationship with Cassandra, keeping the discovery of her body a secret, at least for the time being.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
But after allowing Steiger to go on about his, quote, normal relationship with Cassandra, they changed gears and asked Steiger about his friend William, the beekeeper, and the trailer in his yard.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
Henry didn't show it, but he had to have been thinking that with the mention of the trailer, his lies had finally caught up with him. Because all of a sudden, Steiger seemed much less chatty.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
the story he concocted next was not only hard to believe, it also began to reveal the true depths of Steiger's duplicity and depravity.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
According to Steiger, he had arrived home to find Cassandra in the bathroom, having taken her home life supposedly by using a ligature around her neck. Steiger claimed that then in a panic, he had set about concealing Cassandra's death and her body.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
Massour first revealed the source of those large amounts of cash. It turned out that he and Steiger's coffee business was nothing more than a front for a cocaine smuggling scheme. As for Cassandra's death, he had information about that, too.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
Now, according to her sister, Cassandra had faced some challenges in her short life. She was just 25 years old, but had struggled at times with her mental health. And that had played a part in the delay in raising the alarm because it wasn't the first time that Cassandra had gone off the radar for a bit. But this time it felt different.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
An extended vacation. Steiger was then soon arrested for the murder of Cassandra Robinson. And a year after the investigation first began, the trial started. And a jury was asked if they would believe the prosecutor's evidence that Henry had murdered Cassandra on the day of their daughter's birthday, or Henry's version, that Cassandra had suffered from depression and had taken her own life.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
For Chad, it's a case he'll never forget. Not the least of which because of that little girl, Cassandra's one-year-old child. The girl who ultimately lost her mother and father on her first birthday.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
Murder. Here, one life lost and another forever altered. Cassandra was killed in her one-year-old child deprived of her biological mom. Every loving parent wants their child to be loved and to thrive. So I think we should end where Cassandra would likely have wanted us to, on her daughter. Cassandra loved her little girl.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
And that had everything to do with Cassandra's precious new baby girl. She could not imagine a scenario where Cassandra would have ever left her daughter behind.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
And to hear that she's being cared for, loved, and thriving, that is everything every parent, especially in their absence, would want. Cassandra, your love for your daughter will forever be part of who she is. And let's all hope that she will forever continue to thrive. Tune in next week for another new episode of Anatomy of Murder. Anatomy of Murder is an AudioChuck original.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
Produced and created by Weinberger Media and Fresetti Media. Ashley Flowers is executive producer. This episode was written and produced by Daryl Brown. Researched by Kate Cooper. Edited by Ali Sirwa and Philjean Grande. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
So had Cassandra made good on her promise? Had she really made a plan to celebrate her daughter's first birthday and then leave both Henry and their daughter behind? It was a possibility that detectives had to consider.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
I'm Anastasia Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
A friend of Cassandra's had a similar story to tell of Cassandra making plans to move on and away from Henry.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
It's a decision that sadly many women, mothers, and people are forced to make every day, uprooting their lives to escape an unhealthy relationship, putting their mental and physical safety above all else. But in this situation, one thing really didn't make sense, and that was why would Cassandra have left her daughter behind in the custody of the man she was leaving?
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
If she was really looking for a fresh start, there would be no doubt from her sister and her friends that she would have taken her child with her.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
Cassandra's sister told police that Cassandra was no different, and checking her social media accounts was typically the best way to keep track of her daily movements.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
There are some days you mark on the calendar that you look forward to. It might be a wedding, a birthday, or a favorite holiday. Days that bring friends and loved ones together and promise to put a smile on everyone's face.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
Checks with her cell carrier showed her mobile phone hadn't been active either. The last known communication was the phone accessing a signal tower besides the interstate close to Pensacola.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
That mobile phone activity was on February 2nd, the day after the party. Could that be Cassandra making her way out of Pensacola, out of Florida, or something else?
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
I think for sure it is. But again, depending on how savvy the person who is now missing is, like they might know to just get cash, right? And if we look at Cassandra, of course, like sudden changes are often suspicious, but the specifics of every person's life can be very telling.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
And I think you said it just at the beginning of what you were talking about there, Scott, like here she is in a problematic relationship. Maybe she needs an escape. She's a young mother plus the hilly relationship. These are things that sometimes people just need to go, you know, whether it was because she was overwhelmed Something having to do with any past mental health issues?
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
We just don't know. But regardless, like while there were plausible reasons why Cassandra had left home and maybe stopped using her phone, there was also enough reasons to believe that her sudden disappearance was not of her own volition. And detectives in Pensacola weren't comfortable with the idea that Cassandra had simply left.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
And while it was still a leap to suspect foul play, and again, remember what Scott said about that proof of life digital footprint. Here, when they looked at it all, they decided to search the property where Cassandra and Henry had been living to see if there were any clues where she might be.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
So what had happened to Cassandra? Chad picked up the case with no active leads, but lots of unanswered questions.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
For others, sometimes these milestones and celebrations can put into focus what's missing in their lives. A happy marriage, a child of their own, or a painful loss.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
Would the father of Cassandra's daughter provide a reasonable rationale for her sudden disappearance? Or would detectives uncover evidence that the 25-year-old mom was not just missing, she'd been murdered?
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
In the four months since Cassandra Robinson disappeared, Henry and their one-year-old daughter had moved to a new house in Perdido Key about 30 minutes away from the house they shared in February of 2018.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
But even with the surprise visit of two Pensacola detectives at his door, Henry was welcoming.
Anatomy of Murder
Hot Air (Cassandra Robinson)
an extended vacation. And the more the two detectives pushed and probed, the more Henry was able to remember about this impromptu holiday. According to Henry, Cassandra had talked about going to Bermuda and had even borrowed some money from a friend to fund the trip.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
Mountain City, Tennessee is a very small, quaint town of about 2,500 people situated at the foot of the Appalachian Mountains.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
Janelle was even included in a day of rock climbing with a group that included one of the murder victims, Billy Payne. So far, so good for the reclusive Janelle. But according to mutual friends, there was already trouble brewing in the new friend group.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
These abusive comments directed at both Janelle and Billie Jean were also being echoed by a number of other online people, too, including dozens of anonymous users. The result? Janelle was unfriended by Billie and Billie Jean, and she quickly returned the favor.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
During the interview with Janelle, her parents, Barbara and Marvin, were also present. And in listening to the recording of this conversation, you can immediately hear that there is just something off in the Potter's reaction to Billy and Billie Jean's murder. Here's a piece of what was said.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
Nowadays, taking a look at Main Street where the high school football stands on a Friday night, you might think that it's the kind of place that really hasn't changed much over the years. And you'd be right. Partially.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
But according to Janelle, not all of the online abuse was petty in nature. Some of it even threatened physical violence.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
You know, Scott, just thinking what law enforcement is quickly learning about, you know, not all is well when it came to what was going on, at least online between these, that definitely puts it in the could it be motive category.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
But again, as whether you're law enforcement or prosecutor, to me, it's all super interesting and has to be looked into much more deeply, but not much more, at least yet.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
But again, just from their own observations, this young woman, 30, at least to me, is still young, that I should say it's a big stretch from Odd Answers to get to cold-blooded, skilled executioner. But while they were speaking to her, Janelle did offer an alibi for the night of the murder, saying that she was at home with her mom, an alibi that her mother, of course, verified.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
But this online grudge between Janelle Potter and the two murder victims, it did point to like, again, that potential motive. And it also could at least help narrow down the pool of potential suspects.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
But according to people that knew them, Jamie Curd and Janelle were more than just acquaintances, evidenced by the fact that Jamie had publicly taken Janelle's side in her ongoing feud with Billy and Billie Jean.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
And to me, that just feels like a huge coincidence, right? Like, what are the odds? And it wasn't long before police sat Jamie Kerr down for a second interview to confront him about both his relationship with Janelle and his recent fight with his second cousin, Billy Payne.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
Curden admitted that he had been at the Potter's home for dinner two nights before the murder when a dark plan had been hatched.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
Matt was also witness to one of the strangest and more disturbing homicide cases to ever hit these parts of northeastern Tennessee.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
According to Kurt, he had no intention of participating in Potter's plan. but Janelle's father had other ideas.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
But according to Jamie Curd, his job was not done.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
The details of the crime are incredibly brutal and mind-boggling. And with this much detail, Curd's story was also pretty convincing. But of course, investigators would want more proof, need more proof that Curd was telling the truth and not just pinning these murders on someone else. And they were actually able to do this in a pretty convincing way.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
And Potter had no idea that their call was being recorded by police.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
It's hard to fathom how someone could be capable of this kind of violence or what motive could have driven them to it, but police and prosecutors in Johnson County would have to try.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
On the morning of January 31st, 2012, Billy Payne's coworker arrived at the home they shared with Billy's dad to pick him up for work.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
Marvin Potter's immense weapon collection included handguns, long-barreled rifles, assault weapons, and lots and lots of knives. A frightening but promising lead. Law enforcement hoped that somewhere in that house was the weapon that killed Billy and Billie Jean.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
They need to die. Were these idle threats or promises to keep?
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
But it was the back of the truck that contained the real treasure trove of evidence.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
What was most intriguing to police was that many of these emails describing the alleged threats against Janelle were coming from a person named Chris. And Chris seemed to know an awful lot about the Potter-Hayworth feud that was roiling Mountain City.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
And like any good secret agent, Chris had access to all sorts of information.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
The paper trail of evidence that law enforcement was able to piece together showed how Barbara and Janelle Potter bombarded Marvin with the threatening emails, Facebook posts, and supposed intel about threats to Janelle's life until eventually he decided it was up to him to do something about it.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
Later that morning at about 10 a.m., a former neighbor and friend of Billy's dad dropped by the residence to pick up some mail.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
But there was one huge problem. These threats against Janelle, this intel from a supposed CIA agent, they were all lies.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
Another way police were able to figure out that these emails were fake? A good old-fashioned grammar test.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
There was even an email from Janelle's mother, Barbara, to the man she thought was Chris, saying, quote, we don't want to kill anyone, but we will if we have to.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
But Potter stopped short of a full confession. He saved that for his wife, Barbara.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
Potter also talked to his daughter, Janelle, the person police now believed had put this double murder into motion. Here's Marvin Potter speaking to his daughter, Janelle Potter.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
They are charged with felony murder right along with Buddy Potter. For his role, Jamie Curd was also charged with two counts of first-degree murder, but those charges would eventually be reduced in exchange for his cooperation and ultimately his testimony against the Potters.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
Instead, they focused on the simple facts, that he had possessed customized ammunition matching the bullets found at the crime scene. His accomplice, Jamie Curd, testified to his guilt, and Potter himself had confessed to the murder.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
As the trial of Janelle Potter approached, for prosecutors, the main concern would be proving that she was indeed the mastermind of this elaborate scheme that ended in this horrific double murder.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
While she was clearly responsible for exaggerating and ultimately fictionalizing these threats against her life, would the jury find that there was some reasonable doubt about her culpability in the actual murders?
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
The neighbor then did what I think most of us would and should do. He slowly backed out of the room, left the house, and immediately called 911.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
At her trial, it was Matt's job to unravel Janelle Potter's web of lies and deception and to prove that she was well aware of the intended consequences.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
So what looked like a concerted campaign of cyberbullying was actually entirely self-created.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
And remember that supposed CIA agent named Chris? Well, as it turns out, he was real. Sort of.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
I'm Anastasia Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
And just in case you were wondering, no, Chris was not in the CIA.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
In May of 2015, both Janelle and Barbara Potter were convicted of first-degree murder, with Janelle receiving a life sentence for her role in orchestrating the deadly plot.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
As for Marvin Potter, he may not have pulled the trigger if he had not been convinced by his own wife and daughter that Janelle was in real danger. But when he was, he acted without mercy, taking the lives of two young parents.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
23-year-old Billie Jean Hayworth had been shot in the head at close range while still cradling her infant son in her arms. Miraculously, the baby survived without a physical scratch.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
A post-conviction hearing of the case happened in 2021. Marvin Potter testified that he was the only person responsible for the deaths of the two victims, protecting the women in his life to the very end. Both he and Janelle lost their appeals and are currently serving their sentences.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
It may be impossible to understand the reasons Janelle Potter concocted this scheme beyond her own petty jealousies, pride, and ego, but the results of her actions are all too real. Two innocent people murdered in their home, and their seven-month-old child left to grow up without his parents.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
This case is the type of story we expect to see in the movies or as fictional tales on TV. But unfortunately for Billy and Billie Jean, this horror was very real. Technology and social media can be a great thing, but there are inherent dangers we need to be aware of too. It's easy to hide behind the mask of a screen name. The screen name concocted by Janelle Potter
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
And the words she typed create a lethal and brutal tinderbox that led to double murder. Two young people, Billy and Billie Jean, gone from this earth forever. Their infant left to walk this world without either parent to ever hold him or care for him again. Our thoughts are with him, that now young boy, and hope that those that now care for him will love and support him with all their might.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
His mother held him in her arms even after her last breath. And we hope that will help him know just how much she loved her little boy. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? I approve!
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
According to Matt, the crime scene itself was particularly revealing, not because of what evidence was there, but because of what was not.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
investigators would first naturally assume that this could have been some kind of home invasion or fatal robbery. But not only were there no signs of forced entry, there were also no signs of a burglary. Nothing appeared to be stolen, no drawers rummaged, no furniture overturned, even Billy's wallet was left undisturbed.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
In such a small town, news of the tragic loss of the young parents spread quickly, and so did the fear.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
Law enforcement immediately began to comb the area in search of anyone that may have witnessed the crime. The sound of a gunshot, the sight of a fleeing car, anything that could give detectives a running start. But they didn't have much luck.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
Those bullets were used to determine the caliber of the weapon used, in this case, a .38 handgun. But that's not all the bullets would reveal about the murder and the potential killer.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
And then there was also the fact that Billy Payne's throat had been cut, a vicious and up-close-end personal assault that, when coupled with the fatal gunshot, seemed excessively brutal.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
And I think the one thing that I'm thinking, Scott, when I hear you say that is that it is clear that that is 200 homicides too many. And we know that is unfortunately just a piece of what is out there. But we do thank all of you, our listeners, for caring about these cases as we talk about them weekly to you.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
And when you put all those pieces together, the things that stand out to me quite quickly is just that it was quick. It was not random. And all the evidence makes pretty clear, at least on its face, that this was preplanned.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
And so the search for suspects began where it often does, by quizzing friends and neighbors about what they knew about the couple and anyone that might have wanted to do them harm.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
But as the interviews around town continued, tongues began to loosen about a brewing rivalry between the murder victims and some other local residents of Mountain City.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
The Potters had lived in Tennessee for seven years, but by Mountain City standards, where just about everyone seemed to be related by either blood or marriage or have known one another for most of their lives, the Potters were considered newcomers.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
And Janelle in particular was known for her struggles to fit in socially and may have had some issues that kept her close to home and close to her protective parents.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
And it was on Facebook where the tension between Janelle, Billie, and Billie Jean first started to surface.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
And what they would uncover would shed light on how a simmering online rivalry could boil over into threats of bullying, conspiracy, and eventually even murder.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
According to Johnson County Prosecutor Matt Rourke, gossip in town led police to the door of 30-year-old Janelle Potter, who'd been introduced to Billie and Billie Jean through Billie's sister Tracy.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
And if investigators were able to uncover evidence that Maria's suspicious death was the result of foul play, the revelation of infidelity or a possible love triangle could be the first hint of a potential motive.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
According to her husband, Joel, Maria's death was likely the result of an intentional overdose on a powerful prescription medication. But evidence found at the couple's home was starting to raise suspicions about his story.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
In the moments before the interview started, cameras recorded Joel alone in the interview room. And I have to say, he demonstrates some bizarre behavior, even when you consider the fact that just hours before he had lost his wife, he was pacing, crying, even slamming furniture. And in a way, something you can't put into words, but when you watch it, just something seems off.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
Growing up in Texas, Luis Mata thought he might one day become a sportscaster. But his dad was a police officer right in Laredo, and he never could get used to the idea of leaving his hometown.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
The co-worker's name was Janet, and it was her house where Joel had been staying. But according to Joel, he and Maria had made plans to have what he called a final heart-to-heart about the state of their marriage. And that explained why on that night, he had driven to Maria's house, not Janet's, after getting off of work.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
When asked about the syringes and IV equipment found in the home, Joel initially said they were work-related, but couldn't explain why they were located outside of his medical bag or why he would have brought his medical bag into the house to begin with.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
As an anesthetist, Joel administered IVs for a living, and police found both the equipment and the drugs of his trade in the house. A very dark picture of a potential crime was starting to emerge.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
However, pending an autopsy and a full toxicology report, investigators still did not know the cause or manner of Maria's death. So even if they did suspect foul play, and clearly they did, there was still no evidence that a homicide had even taken place. And for that reason, Joel was released.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
I am a firm believer that you can often learn more from someone's reaction to news than you can from their actual words. And according to Luis, news of Maria's death did not seem to take Janet by surprise.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
Janet admitted that Joel frequently stayed at her house, but denied seeing him before or after Maria's estimated time of death.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
And this is where the lawyer has to chime in and say that retaining a lawyer is anyone's right. And it is by no means an indication of guilt. But of course, from an investigator's point of view, any perceived obstacle in an investigation does tend to fuel suspicions.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
Case in point, the story of 31-year-old Maria Munoz and her husband, Joel Peyote. Maria and Joel met when she was a nursing student, and he was an ambitious nurse anesthetist 11 years her senior.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
Footage from just three days before Maria's death showed Maria arriving at Janet's home, banging on the door and demanding that Joel come outside.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
I mean, look, it's clear that it was contentious. Maria is not happy. And in Joel's eyes, she's giving him a hard time, whether it's because he doesn't want to lose her, doesn't want to lose Janet, or just doesn't want the headache of a divorce. I mean, who knows where that lies? But one thing does seem clear, and that is that he was angry.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
But still, investigators did not have the evidence to prove that Joel or Janet were involved in Maria's death.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
And according to those people who knew Maria, including her sister and close friends that she emailed with regularly, Maria had never contemplated taking her own life. And while she was upset over her husband's infidelity, she was also resolved to move on with her life.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
But the most telling information was provided by Maria's own journal, one in which she routinely confessed her private thoughts, even in the days leading up to her death.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
In addition to Maria's journal, investigators were able to search her phone records and recovered numerous messages between Maria and her friends, documenting Joel's violent outbursts and her fears of his growing hostility. One chilling text sent just the night before her death read, I just ask if you can pray for me. Tonight we are going to talk.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
In other words, the tox screen may show cause of death, but it would not necessarily prove the manner of death, specifically whether it was homicide, death by suicide, or accidental.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
That's very important. Instead, her system showed a deadly cocktail of six other powerful drugs.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
There's just no plausible reason why Maria would have had access to those drugs. More importantly, the results of the talk screen directly contradicted statements Joel had made to police.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
To the casual observer, Joel and Maria appear to be a happy, attractive, and a well-off family living in an upscale Laredo neighborhood. But looks can be deceiving.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
A toxicology report revealed that Maria Munoz had a fatal mix of several powerful drugs in her system and a single injection mark on her inner arm hinted at the delivery method.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
The official cause of death was determined to be acute intoxication, but the medical examiner listed the manner of death as undetermined.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
So, you know, Scott, and we say this all the time, you have to think about this from the defense perspective before you go into court or even file the charges. In many cases, you should. And I can also see it if I'm looking at the other way. At least you have to be able to think about they're going to come with this, like that she is so distraught because of
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
The marriage breakup, him being with this other woman that it's almost like, hey, you know, please, like, I love you. You don't want to be with me. Like, please end this for me. Like, you can make it painless. You know how to do that. Or maybe they were like taking drugs together. He gave her too much. Doesn't sound like that to me at all.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
But it is things investigators need to rule out because the defense may well go there if they don't.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
The challenge in this case for prosecutors, the biggest one, it wouldn't be proving who killed Maria Munoz if that was the fact, but if a murder had been committed at all.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
And with the realization that she could be held accountable for withholding key evidence or possibly even being complicit in a plan to cover up the murder, Joel's girlfriend was convinced it was time to make a deal.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
In the early morning hours of September 22nd, 2020, Laredo police received a 911 call from Joel and Maria's home in North Laredo.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
According to Janet, Joel had claimed that Maria's death was not suicide or homicide, but rather a terrible accident.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
Janet's account of Peyote's actions painted the picture not just of a manipulative, abusive husband, but a cold, calculating killer.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
In his trial, prosecutors would argue that Peyote intentionally and deliberately incapacitated his wife and injected her with a deadly mix of powerful drugs, then attempted to stage her murder as a death by suicide.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
As for motive, prosecutors argued that it went beyond Peyote's desire to be with another woman. They believed his motive might have also been financial.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
Throughout the trial, Peyote refused to admit any wrongdoing and showed little remorse for the murder of his wife.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
Maria Munoz was a mother, a wife, a woman navigating her way through a marriage that wasn't working, with a husband who was in a relationship with someone else. None of it's easy, and unfortunately too many people understand the type of pain Maria was living. But that's the key. She should have lived. She should have left him or stayed. They should have divorced or not. But that's it.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
That's the type of decision people in relationships make, whether difficult or no longer viable. Those are the reasonable choices for every person to consider. Not murder. Not taking a mother from her young kids. Not taking a woman's life. Maria Munoz, we remember you.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
We hope that your boys are well and that they remember your strength, all the good qualities you surely passed down to them, and most importantly, that they still remember and feel your love for them both. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? No! No!
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
CPR was continued, but Maria was unresponsive. Her eyes appeared fully dilated and she had no pulse. Shortly after paramedics arrived, Maria Munoz was declared dead. All the while, her two sons, just five and two, were still sleeping only a few feet away.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
I'm Anastasia Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
According to Joel, he had arrived at the house after his shift at the hospital. He explained how he and Maria had been having some marriage trouble, and he had promised to come home to have what he called a heart-to-heart.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
You may be asking why a homicide detective would be called to the scene of an overdose, accidental or otherwise. But as Luis explains, it doesn't take a knife or a gun to make a death suspicious.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
All marriages have their ups and downs, and most couples will tell you that it takes a lot of patience and hard work to make a healthy partnership endure.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
But according to the officer at the scene, there were some things about Joel's story that weren't adding up.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
But that wasn't the only thing about the scene that had gotten law enforcement's attention.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
Joel's erratic behavior was also attracting attention. He was sweating profusely through his scrubs, and he was growing impatient with the police, insisting that his wife had to be transported to the hospital before the sun came up and before the neighbors began wondering what had happened next door.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
As the homeowner, Joel had the legal authority to grant police or not his consent to recover any evidence from inside the house. But to Luis's surprise, he denied that consent.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
It sounds suspicious, right? But as a prosecutor, I always have to think about it from the other side, too. Some people are just not fans of law enforcement. And there's always the possibility that he's just scared or traumatized. And his refusal to cooperate with police is not an indication that there's anything sinister going on at all.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
But of course, some marital discord can prove too challenging to overcome, especially when it comes to infidelity, abuse, or other trauma.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
Joel soon realized that his attempt not to make a scene actually did exactly that. They made a crime scene.
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
But that's not to say that there weren't things that seemed out of place, starting with Maria's body itself. If Maria had passed away in bed, as Joel had claimed, why was her body on the floor at the loft at the top of the stairs?
Anatomy of Murder
Non-Responsive (Maria Muñoz)
And if Joel had showered as he claimed to have, why was he back in his work scrubs when police first arrived?
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
According to Google, the two registered devices were located at the far corner of the gas station from 10.35 to 11 p.m. on the night of the murder.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
Paul Creelman has been in law enforcement in some form or another since he was barely out of grade school.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
The owner of both devices was a man we'll just call Enzo, and his car, you guessed it, a gray Toyota Camry with a license plate with the letter E as its fourth digit.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
But since he was working for cash and not through the ride-sharing app, he only knew the client by his first name.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
And this right here, it's an important detail because it suggests that after his initial confrontation with Jamal, Ivan, or the guy we now know as Ivan, may have known he was planning something that might require a quick exit.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
So who was this Ivan, besides now the prime suspect in the shooting death of Jamal Drummond? Investigators ran his phone number through police records and soon had their answer.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
Semioya also had an arrest record in Florida. So Paul compared booking photographs from those previous arrests to the surveillance video from the hotel and the gas station. And wouldn't you know it, they were a perfect match.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
Samaoya was located at his home and arrested without incident. he was handcuffed and transported back up I-95 to West Palm Beach. In the meantime, a team stayed behind to collect potential evidence from his residence.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
But despite his transient lifestyle, it didn't appear that he had any connection to either Riviera Beach, where Jamal Drummond was from, or West Palm Beach, where Jamal was murdered.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
Paul was joined by a fellow detective, and together they made a conscious effort to play it even calmer and gentler than their interviewee presented. A veteran detective knows all too well how rapport is key to almost any interview, and understanding the subject of the interview and playing to that personality is often the best chance for success.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
And when I'm thinking about those contrasts that you were talking about that exist in South Florida, Palm Beach is the prime example of that. Because when many of us hear Palm Beach, we think of mansions by the ocean, luxury shopping, and the top 1% of that 1% of wealth in this country. But other areas in Palm Beach are very different than the extreme wealth seen on the coast.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
Throughout the course of the interview, Semayoya was cooperative and cordial. But that doesn't mean there wasn't something that immediately raised red flags with detectives.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
Some people think that the singular win of a suspect interview is to elicit a confession, but that is definitely not always the case. Sometimes the methodical collection of information, confirming timelines and locations, can be just as important. Case in point, proving that the phone number used to hire the driver on the night of the murder belonged to the suspect.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
Almost immediately, Samaoya realized he had made a grave mistake, positively identifying himself as the man that cameras and witnesses had spotted at both the Holiday Inn and the gas station across the street.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
And that includes the area of West Palm Beach.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
But there's also another item that as a prosecutor, I would be interested in finding. And that would be the murder weapon.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
Predictably, his first phone call was to his girlfriend, and the drama that ensued gave investigators a window into Semioya's state of mind, and possibly his motive.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
It was a stunning admission that potentially revealed more than just the location of the murder weapon. Gail was the woman in the photo that an agitated Semioya had shown to witnesses before shooting Jamal Drummond. She was clearly at the center of this crime, but in what capacity?
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
Recorded jailhouse calls between the suspect in Jamal Drummond's murder, Claudio Ivan Semioya, and his girlfriend had provided some pretty incriminating, albeit circumstantial, evidence that Ivan Semioya was indeed Jamal's killer.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
The girlfriend's willingness to cooperate gave investigators their first clue about her level of loyalty to Semioya, as well as the unlikelihood that she was involved in the actual crime itself. And the phone? Well, that proved to be everything they hoped for and more.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
You know, when you look at what we're hearing about these two and their relationship, you know, there are those relationships that thrive on the negative. You know, it's the excitement and also the curse. So, again, is this indicative of someone who is controlled or abused? You know, that role play, strong and tough one minute, but – When you want out of the roles, you can't leave.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
It's really definitely, it sounds at least to me, dysfunctional. But again, is there coercive control playing in here, you know, or power plays at even a higher level? Or is it just the back and forth that these two have signed on for? But as you said, Scott, at the end of the day, is she part and parcel?
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
And while I'd say it doesn't seem like it, certainly at the end, whether it's helping cover for something, well, that I think is less clear or maybe more clear, I should say.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
As other cases have shown us, the victim, or I should say the survivor of abuse, is not always the most reliable witness. She could choose to cooperate in an effort to free herself from that abusive partner, or she might also come to his defense. And obviously I'm saying she and he, but it could go any which way.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
The husband and wife who witnessed the shooting just happened to be off-duty corrections officers on vacation, and their quick action ensured a swift response from first responders. Since the cop started this riot where you checked in right in the very front entrance.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
But that does not mean that Jamal's murder was purely a crime of passion. In fact, investigators had collected convincing evidence that suggested Samayoya's actions were thought out and deliberate.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
Paul and his fellow investigators had given prosecutors a treasure trove of evidence to hopefully successfully make their case. But as we have discussed so many times before, when it comes to trial, there is no such thing as a slam dunk.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
Plus, you had the location data from his cell phone that placed him at the scene. So even without his actual phone, prosecutors still had a pretty strong case.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
But being able to show the jury a photo of him posing with a possible murder weapon that had existed right there on his phone, or the text where he brags about being wanted, I absolutely can certainly understand Paul and the prosecutors' frustrations about losing that evidence.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
I have to stop for a second because Paul's discussion of his decision that ended up being a misstep, to me that is so important to discuss beyond the actual loss of evidence itself. You know, his straightforwardness, hey, this is a misstep. That's exactly the type of transparency that is key to what I hope. would instill more trust in our system because people make mistakes.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
Most are not nefarious or ill-intended. And when they are, of course, it's a different story, completely no excuse. But when they aren't, we hope they don't hurt a case too much. And luckily here it didn't, but we're all human.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
And Scott and I, you and I have had this conversation many times before, but we all make mistakes and Paul's honesty and insight about it, I found to be really important to stop here for a moment and highlight.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
You know, it's just this idea, Scott, of the jury being locked. And so often it can just take one or more jurors that decide to go off on their own brain space. And that's it. Because if all 12 can't agree, it's game over in the sense that you're going to have a mistrial, which just is super frustrating for prosecutors, law enforcement, and more importantly, families that want resolve.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
But really, the recourse is just you got to do it all over again because that is what justice requires. And so that's what we do.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
As you can imagine, the mistrial was also painful for Jamal's family, who had not just lost a son and a father, but had been denied that close to a court case and justice for Jamal that they had hoped a guilty verdict would provide.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
But sadly, there was nothing they could do. At 10.58 p.m., West Palm Beach fire medics pronounced the victim dead at the scene. The victim, a young man, had an obvious gunshot wound to the face.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
And while prosecutors presented much of the same evidence, the second trial did not come off without a hitch. After agreeing to testify against her boyfriend, Gayle suddenly changed her tune.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
At the conclusion of the trial, a jury found Ivan Semyoya guilty, and he was sentenced to life in prison without parole.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
But it was a mistake that Paul owned, and it did not impact the ultimate just outcome of this case.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
It's a weight felt by both investigators and prosecutors alike, but one gladly born to lessen the burden on those victims and survivors for whom they seek justice.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
Jamal Drummond. The senselessness of his murder is made all the more infuriating because it came down to nothing more than wrong place, wrong time. Samayoi came looking for his girlfriend, what sounded to be a twisted relationship to say the very least. And his infatuation or need for control, need to find her and being unable to do so,
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
made him lash out in the most brutal of ways against a complete stranger. Misplaced aggression coupled with a gun. Devastating consequences. Jamal was there for a party. He should have gone on to attend many more parties, live countless more days amongst the friends and family he loved and loved him back. Tune in next week for another new episode of Anatomy of Murder.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
Anatomy of Murder is an AudioChuck original produced and created by Weinberger Media and Fresetti Media.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
This episode was written and produced by Walker Lamond, researched by Kate Cooper, edited by Ali Sirwa, and Philjean Grande. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? No!
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
Jamal was a devoted dad and a loyal friend, not the kind of person who made enemies or sought out trouble, which made his murder not only tragic, but all the more puzzling that he would have been targeted in such a brutal fashion.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
According to Jamal's former girlfriend, she had agreed to meet him and some friends who had gathered at the hotel for a birthday party.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
I'm Anastasia Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
At least one of the shots hit Jamal above the right eye. It was almost immediately fatal.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
And yet, even that scenario didn't quite sit right with detectives, because there was something in the witness's description of the shooter's behavior that made it feel less like a fight and more like a planned ambush.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
Today's episode takes us back to Scott's old stomping ground along the South Florida coast.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
Whatever the man's motive, detectives were confident that he could not have gotten far. And the faster they could release a description of the suspect, the sooner they could get him off the streets.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
And just as importantly, she told police she was also able to describe the car he had arrived in.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
Luckily, those interior cameras were of high quality, and after pulling the footage, investigators immediately spotted a person matching the suspect's description.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
In the meantime, crime scene investigators scoured the hotel parking lot for any more clues that could help identify the killer.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
The suspect fled the scene, but surveillance footage captured him at a gas station across the street, followed shortly after by the same gray Toyota Camry spotted earlier at the hotel. So, Scott, I mean, the obvious question is, are they now looking for one or is it two or more?
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
And for me, potentially and much more likely with this car evidence now, it's not this spur of the moment occurrence, right? If a car is there and it's moving, it seems more purposeful and possibly preplanned.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
Geofencing is a method that uses GPS to delineate a specific geographical area with digital boundaries for the purpose of collecting location data from any cellular device within those boundaries.
Anatomy of Murder
Wrong Place, Wrong Time (Jamal Drummond)
Scott, I know that you and I have talked about this offline. It is one of those cool things. what they can do now with technology types of evidence. I always think back when I had friends that literally left the police department to work on this before it was ever really a thing. And now to see it being used in a case like this really shows the advancements that have been made.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
There was also the fact that Bedore had called a friend to come pick up her daughters before calling 911. And not only that, when police interviewed that friend, they made a disturbing discovery.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
You know, it's interesting, and I've been kind of swirling these things around in my mind because, yeah, like that strange behavior, again, taking the flip side, like, is it that she's just being strong for the sake of her kids, you know, protecting them by not letting them see her break down?
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
Like, she clearly doesn't want them either to go inside and also not to be there, so why she hands them off to the friend, right? But I don't know, even going into the house without her kids initially, like that's kind of odd unless, I don't know, maybe they're very young and she's taking groceries in and so she likes to get the door open before taking them out.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
But it definitely is all things that I think even the fact that we're debating them back and forth right now to each other, it's going to make detectives need to look deeper and question at least the order of the way she did things on top of, to your point, Scott, her demeanor, like how calm she appeared.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
If you were to ask their friends and neighbors, they would tell you that the Alyasaris were a stable, happy family living a typical suburban life. But on February 4th, 2019, at 8.05 p.m., that facade would come crashing down with a frantic call to 911.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
Unless it's someone who has access to their laptops or their apps, like it is the cyber crime generation. But again, all questions that investigators are going to want to figure out.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
From text messages to her husband, they learned that he arrived home that day at about 6.50 p.m., giving investigators a good indicator of his time of death. But it also confirmed to them that the door at the time was still several miles from home.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
What Bedore didn't know, and I don't know, maybe perhaps few people do, is that even when you delete a text app from your phone, that texting data still lives on the company's servers. So investigators were able to get a search warrant for the TextNow app and recover that stored data.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
Fisher was a local community college student originally from California and a former infantryman in the U.S. Army. And Bedore's text data revealed the entire chronology of their seven-month relationship.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
While Bedore's phone data didn't turn up any texts making direct mention of a plan to kill her husband, it did reveal texts that seemed to set the stage.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
Police chose not to re-interview Bedour regarding her relationship with Fisher, and there was a sound procedural reason for this tactic.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
The receipt was dated January 31st, just four days prior to the murder.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
It was looking likely that Fisher was the man that killed Amar. What investigators still did not know was whether he acted alone or was assisted in his plan by Bedore.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
But that wasn't all investigators got. They also left the store with strong evidence suggesting Fisher had an accomplice.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
The wealth of circumstantial evidence convinced authorities in Lansing, Michigan, that Baddour Alyassari and her boyfriend, Jacob Fisher, conspired to murder Baddour's husband and father of their children, Ammar.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
Another indication of Fisher's lack of remorse, the revelation that shortly after he was identified as the prime suspect, after the murder, Jacob Fisher had showed up at a local watering hole, boasting that he had killed someone and needed money to get out of town.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
Okay, Scott, can we just talk about the fact that someone goes to a bar and starts boasting about murdering someone and needs help to get out of town? Does that even make sense that someone thinks that that's going to work out and that somebody's not going to tip off somebody else, i.e. equaling the police?
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
And I think to your point, Scott, and I think it is a good point that as we know, people say all sorts of things and many people may have just taken it as like, oh, he's boasting and really not thought much about it. But, you know, it's also interesting that as much as he talked in the bar when he was arrested, he chose not to make any statements to police.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
And so based on the evidence that law enforcement has collected at this point, which included footage from a dash cam that Bedore had operating in her truck, investigators formed a theory as to how the pair had worked together to commit murder.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
Investigators were certain that Badur Alyasari had conspired with Fisher to kill her husband. But it was prosecutors who would need to present a compelling case, making the strength of the circumstantial evidence clear enough to hopefully prove it in court.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
A hundred percent. But as we all know, like I like circumstantial evidence cases. And to me, it is like the truck that he's in when he's purchasing the ax and that alarm, like, of course, that is pretty strong evidence. It's exactly how I'm starting, not only my opening, but my closing.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
And while domestic abuse can definitely be a precursor to more extreme violence, including murder, there was no actual evidence that she was telling the truth. There were no complaints ever filed, no visits from police, and more importantly, most importantly, I should say, no one close to Badur Alyasari who could verify her claims.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
In fact, Ammar's sister had her own suspicions that her sister-in-law was the one who had actually harbored dangerous resentments about her marriage.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
But Doerr told the operator that when she walked in and saw her husband laying lifeless on the floor, she immediately fled the home, fearful the attacker might still be inside.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
But Dora Ayasari had claimed from the start that she had no knowledge of the murder. If this had been true, it was only logical that she would have been enraged at Jacob Fisher for killing Amar, her husband, and the father of her children. However, her actions post-arrest and prior to trial seemed to contradict her denials.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
In November 2019, Jason Fisher was the first to face a jury. Charged with murder and conspiracy to commit murder, he entered a plea of not guilty.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
It definitely doesn't. But again, still technically on its face, it's all circumstantial. And under Cross, the defense tried to convince the jury that prosecutors couldn't definitively place Fisher in the Al-Isari home on the day of the murder.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
As we've discussed before, it's always risky for a defendant to put themselves on the stand and open themselves up to cross-examination. And even Nicole was surprised by the defense's decision. But she was even more surprised by what Fisher said when he testified.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
Fisher went on to testify that they had plans for Bedore to file for divorce, then take the children with him to the West Coast where he'd grown up. But most importantly, that Bedore Alyassari had nothing to do with the murder.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
But was this the truth or was it merely an effort to protect this woman he seemed to love, a woman that had potentially manipulated him into committing murder and now taking all the blame?
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
In January 2020, Jacob Fisher was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. While Fisher admitted he killed Amar, the jury rejected his assertion that he didn't intend to kill Amar, that it was self-defense, that Amar had first attacked him, and that the attack wasn't premeditated.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
In her opening statement, Nicole told the jury that the pair not only plotted, planned, and worked together, but that Badar Alyassari knew how to fuel Jacob Fisher's hatred to manipulate him into killing her husband.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
Prosecutors also presented evidence that a neighbor of the Alyassari's, between 5.30 and 6 on the day of the murder, had seen a man on their street in a dark hoodie fitting Fisher's build. They watched as he entered the Alyassari's front door, likely left unlocked by his accomplice.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
I'm Anastasia Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
The prosecution team did have the evidence to show that Bedor Alyassari was guilty, but would they be able to convince a jury, a jury they feared might be sympathetic to the widowed mother of two young children? The short answer? They did.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
In securing the two convictions, Nicole was quick to give credit where credit is due.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
Arriving deputies found Bedore crying hysterically in their front driveway.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
Despite the dual courtroom victories, Nicole's thoughts on the case still center on Ammar Alyassari, son, brother, friend, and father, as well as those he left behind.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
Ammar Alyassari walked in from work, likely thinking he'd have dinner and spend some time with his family before going to bed. Instead, he was met with a brutal death. How is it that someone who once either loved him, or at least said that she did, can so callously arrange for him to die? And how can the person in a relationship with her so violently murder another human being?
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
Those are questions I've often asked myself about many cases over the years, but clearly neither I nor anyone really has that answer. With his murder, Amar was taken from both his kids, two young girls who will never again have the love they deserve to be shown from their dad.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
As we remember Amar, our thoughts are, of course, also with his daughters, and we hope they are surrounded with kindness and with love. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? I approve!
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
Amar was clearly deceased, with multiple deep lacerations visible on his head, face, and neck. He was still wearing a coat but no shoes, as if he may have just entered the house. Deputies also noticed a very strong chemical odor hanging in the air.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
Once that was done, deputies sealed off the home. When homicide detectives soon arrived on scene, it was evident they would have their work cut out for them.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
And look, we've obviously talked about things like this many times before in AOM, but these type of injuries often prove to be personal, right? Some sort of like deep-seated anger or rage. However, again, always looking at the flip side too, which investigators and prosecutors must do,
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
While not as likely, we've definitely also seen cases where something like this, even this severe, is completely random with someone with a deep-seated anger and even maybe mental health issues on display. But, you know, Scott, obviously there are signs of this not only being deliberate, but also thought out in advance with the heavy smell that they determined to be bleach in the air.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
Whether it's the digital shadow we cast when using our phones, the purchases logged by the use of an ATM card, or the video images captured by a surveillance camera, we all leave behind a traceable trail of our actions and whereabouts.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
Detectives theorized that Ammar likely walked in from the garage and had been attacked by someone lying in wait who was already inside the house. A truly terrifying thought.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
And of those 24 axe wounds, 17 of them were deep enough to be fatal, leaving no doubt about this killer's intention.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
After discovering her husband on the floor, she retreated from the house, fearing that that intruder might still be inside. She then called a neighbor to collect her kids before finally dialing 911.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
But Dora was adamant that she had no idea who may have wanted to kill her husband. She described him as well-liked and respected at work. Amar was also a private person who rarely socialized and not the type to engage in at-risk or criminal behavior that might put him in any kind of danger.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
So the alarm was turned off and the front door was unlocked. You can imagine how that would start to raise suspicion about the only other person who had that kind of access to this house, Amar's wife, Badur.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
It's also important to remember that 54% of homicides are committed by someone the victim knows, the majority of those by the person closest to them.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
According to Bedour, her marriage to Ammar was far from perfect. She claimed he was often verbally abusive, and despite her education and employment, expected her to be just a wife.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
If true, these marital troubles were, of course, unfortunate, but it hardly seems like any sort of sufficient motive for murder. What she revealed next, however, that was potentially a different story.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
Holt, Michigan, is a residential suburb of Lansing with a population of about 25,000 people. And it was here that Ammar and Badur Alyassari, recent immigrants from Iraq, decided to settle down and raise their two kids.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
So, Scott, this is interesting to me because, of course, you know, this isn't the only person to have an extramarital relationship outside of the marriage. But at this point, if she's telling that much to investigators, why not just give up the name of the person she's having the relationship with? I mean, of course, there could be innocent reasons, but it does make you raise an eyebrow.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
But police weren't going to leave it there, so they went about at that point obtaining a search warrant and confiscated her phone.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
And while a digital forensics team extracted the phone's data, which would include a full history of calls, texts, and locations, investigators followed up on another mystery from the crime scene, how a Mars killer gained access to the home without triggering their alarm system.
Anatomy of Murder
Alarm Bells (Ammar Al-Yasari)
But detectives had turned up evidence that Amar's wife, Badur, who had discovered her husband's body, had also remotely disabled the security alarm at 5.32 p.m. on the day of the murder.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
But as we will discuss, it also raises important questions about the risks and the evolving relationship between law enforcement and social media.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
But you know, that level of violence doesn't really even seem to square with the initial crime. You know, you take advantage of here, a rental property, you know, people are in or out, you don't see the car. So, Hey, we're going to go and do our laundry. We're going to make ourselves at home at this nice home on the beach and
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
To go from that to the most brutal of murder, there's just something else going on. And, you know, it's just incredible to think about what that might be.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
And that really is the small miracle in this case was that Thelma's eight-year-old daughter was spared the physical violence and did not actually witness the attack on her mother or see her body as it lay on the ground as the two attackers brought this child into the home. But now it was this same child that also held the key to catching her mother's killers.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
Within hours of Telma's murder, her partner Kevin and his family made additional public pleas for more information, offering a substantial reward to anyone who could help track down the truck or the killers. And an emotional video was posted by Kevin's brother and then shared by many high-profile surfers in the North Shore community. And that video, it soon went viral.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
The user who posted the video was someone calling himself, and I quote, Axel Hayes Hendricks. But he was quickly identified by his real name, 23-year-old Stephen Brown. And the girl giggling to him was 20-year-old Haley Dandurant. And by the time police had seen the video, the comment section was already filled with accusations of murder and demands for justice.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
From what police could gather, neither Brown nor Dandurand had criminal records.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
In 2017, Telma Boyneville was a 51-year-old schoolteacher living a vibrant life with her partner Kevin and their eight-year-old daughter on the North Shore of Oahu, Hawaii's third-largest island.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
I mean, the speed of which this social media, these posts like spread around the island, it was like wildfire, which is amazing, Scott, right? But then on the flip side, like you're saying, there can be misinformation there and what people are reading or hearing they're going to take as fact. And you just don't know how that's going to factor into the investigation.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
And also you don't want vigilante justice for the primary reason you don't want additional people to be hurt in all this. So this really is a lot of back and forth when you're thinking about these cases. But on the positive note here, luckily in this case, the lead generated by the public was a strong one.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
Within hours of the murder, tips began pouring in. The first was from two teenagers who had spotted the couple at a local shopping center just a few minutes drive from the crime scene.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
A little before 8 p.m., approximately five hours after Telma's murder, police descended on the shopping center in Mililani.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
As the first plainclothes officer approached, he identified himself as a police officer and ordered the couple to stop.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
As for Dandurant, she too had done little to cover up her involvement in the crime. She also had visible bloodstains on her clothes, hands, and even the tops of her feet.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
But despite her incriminating and fatalistic statement, there were still so many questions about Thelma's murder that remained unanswered. And the public outcry for justice was getting louder by the second.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
23-year-old Stephen Brown and his girlfriend, 20-year-old Haley Danderand, were apprehended outside a nearby shopping center. Both suspects showed visible bloodstains on clothes, hands, and feet.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
And, you know, I'm sure police were thankful that the public was out there feeding them those tips so quickly so they had made at least a quick apprehension. But, you know, this type of mob mentality can go sideways very quickly.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
And so the police, while they are happy to have the tips and the support, the first thing they want to do is just disperse that scene before somebody else or even one of themselves gets hurt. And that really is the risk, even when motivated by the best intentions.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
Police were able to de-escalate the situation and get Brown safely into the squad car. However, Brown was still intent on putting up a fight of his own.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
But even though it seems he had done literally nothing to cover up his recent crime, not even washing his hands, Brown wasn't exactly surrendering.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
But even with the homicide investigation that was just a few hours old, there was already sufficient evidence to obtain an indictment. Evidence that included a bloody washcloth found in Thelma's stolen truck, Brown's own backpack with his ID left at the murder scene, and the fact that Dandrin was actually wearing Thelma's daughter's backpack when she was arrested.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
So to the dismay of Telma's family and her North Shore community, the trial of Stephen Brown did not begin until 2023, nearly six years after the murder.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
Brown's family was conspicuously absent from the courtroom, although his foster parents did testify remotely via video and said that Brown had what they described, quote, as a rough childhood and had been the victim of physical abuse as a child.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
Telma cherished the outdoors and had a strong connection to the ocean. If she wasn't on the beach, she and her huge signature smile could often be seen on her bike or taking her daughter to and from school.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
According to Brown, Telma had indeed surprised them while they were ransacking the vacation home. He then claimed it was Danderent who was carrying the machete and ordered Boyneville to lie down so they could tie her up.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
And remember, there were also five different weapons that had been used in this vicious attack. So if Brown had not participated in the attack, was it realistic at all that Dandrin would have used all five different weapons herself in this assault on Thelma?
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
And remember, Brown and Dandurand were tried separately. And when it was Dandurand's turn to be tried, in her defense, Dandurand claimed that it was she who had been under Brown's control and that Brown had forced her to participate in the crime.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
So Dandurand asserted what is called in Hawaii a choice of evil defense.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
There was also her behavior as documented in surveillance footage from the shopping center that suggested that she was not just complicit, but lacking any remorse for her participation in the murder.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
Telma Boyneville had surprised Brown and Dandrin as they were burglarizing a house, which means really just entering with the intent to commit a crime inside and squatting or setting up camp in another's home without permission. Well, that is, of course, a crime. So that was when they were surprised by Telma. And of course, they could have just run.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
They could have tied Telma up before making their escape and let her live. Instead, they chose to inflict an almost unthinkable amount of violence using a knife, a machete, a baseball bat, and a kitchen mallet to stab, slash, and beat this defenseless woman at this point. Because remember, she's bound to death. And for what? A minor burglary. A thrill.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
December on Oahu brings a lot of visitors, many coming to town to take in the famous Pipe Master surfing competition. And so in addition to teaching, Telma had taken a side job cleaning and maintaining vacation homes on the island. And that day she was checking on a property that was being prepared for its next group of renters.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
Thelma's daughter testified to being taken from the truck and brought into the house.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
There was significant evidence to prove that Brown and Dandurand were responsible for killing Thelma Boyneville, even without her daughter's testimony. But with the young girl's description of the boy with green hair and the girl with pink hair in the immediate aftermath of the murder, it proved crucial to catching her mother's killers.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
Brown was sentenced to life in prison with the possibility of parole, along with an additional 20 years for kidnapping and burglary.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
During sentencing, the judge emphasized the cruelty of the crime, noting the defendants had several opportunities to flee without violence, but instead chose to escalate the situation.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
Thankfully, Telma's family continued to have an enormous amount of support from their friends and the entire North Shore community as they coped with the trauma of a truly senseless and horrific crime.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
Telma's loss is still felt to this day. In the years following her murder, Telma's family and friends have worked to keep her memory alive.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
This is one of those crimes that is as puzzling as it is brutal. But rather than focus on the why, because there is nothing to learn from what these two did to Thelma and her daughter, let's confine our thoughts to the memory of a woman who was vibrant, loving, hardworking, and wanted to be the very best mom she could be. And to her daughter...
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
who will never again see her mom smile or have Thelma hold her in her arms. To Thelma's daughter, we hope you are being held tight by the many people who love you and that you have all the support that you need to heal as you, your dad, and your family forever grieve the loss of Thelma Boyneville, your mom. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? I approve!
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
A short time later, those renters arrived at the house.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
But there was no answer. So he walked to the main living room to settle in. And that is where he made a terrible discovery. A woman's body. It was Telma. her arms and legs tied behind her, and there was a lot of blood.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
I'm Anastasia Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
The emergency call landed with District 2 of the Honolulu Police Department, and immediately officers of the North Shores Beach Patrol were dispatched to the scene. When the first officer arrived, he made a note that Thelma's truck was no longer parked outside the home.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
It was clear that Telma was the victim of an incredibly vicious attack, and next to her lifeless body were the likely instruments of this violence.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
It's no secret that social media has transformed our lives, from how we stay in touch with friends to how we get our news, our daily distractions, and maybe even our next job.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
Miraculously, Telma's daughter was alive and unhurt, physically that is. But she was badly shaken. Once she was untied by the officers, she was able to utter four tragic words.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
According to her, there was more than one person involved. Within a few minutes, dozens of local police descended on the normally quiet beachfront neighborhood.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
And remember, the Australian renters had arrived and discovered Telma's body just after 3 p.m. And not only was Telma's truck still out front, but footsteps were heard upstairs, which leads to a truly terrifying conclusion.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
And Scott, it really is just the short span of time that is just incredible and the worst of ways here, right? Like she gets there right after she picks up her daughter from school, right? So that's what, 2.45-ish. And then by three o'clock, the renters have arrived and the killers likely are still inside based on the footsteps that were heard.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
And also just think about the truck, right? Thelma's truck is there without the eight-year-old in the truck when the renters arrive. But then by the time police get there, the truck is already gone, which also goes towards that reality, that terrible reality that the killers were still inside when the renters first entered.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
In the meantime, Telma's young daughter, and now the investigation's most important witness, was taken into protective care.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
This, quote, boy with green hair had then forcibly removed her from the truck, said to her the unthinkable, we killed your mom. and then brought her inside the house where he and a girl with pink hair dragged her to the upstairs bedroom, bound her hands and feet, and covered her mouth with duct tape.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
And this is where this story takes a unique and dramatic turn. Through the shock and terror and anger over finding his wife brutally murdered, Telma's partner listened to his daughter's description of Telma's killers and decided to take immediate action.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
In other words, it can be an invaluable tool. saving time, people power, and in some cases, even saving lives. Today's story is an extraordinary example of how the interconnectedness of a community and the speed in which information can be shared can radically impact a murder investigation.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
Within hours of her mother's murder, the eight-year-old girl had positively identified her killers.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
In December of 2017, inside a vacation home on the north shore of Oahu, Hawaii, 51-year-old Telma Boyneville had been found viciously murdered.
Anatomy of Murder
The Vacation Home (Telma Boinville)
And Scott, very different from drawers being turned over, areas that you expect someone to be rifling for personal possessions. Like this feels like people were staying put, right? The fridge, the laundry being done by the washing machine. I mean, that to me is just much more like squatters.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
Tragically, it would be another murder with undeniable similarities to Leslie's death that would reignite the case and provide crucial clues to solving it.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
The body was that of Janet Taylor. And there were immediate comparisons and similarities to Leslie Perloff's murder, which had also taken place in a desolate area just a few miles away.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
And I think that's exactly it, Scott, that it's either in this crime sense, practical to slow down your victim from running away. But also again, when we talk about signatures and things that are ritualistic, they don't necessarily make sense to most people. It is just something in the mind of the attacker, right? Why does someone pose someone's body?
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
Why do they do certain things with items of clothing? Because that is a vision they have in their mind and it means something to them. So again- It could go either way, but it is certainly, I think, more than odd and would be an extremely unlikely coincidence that this happened so close in time with two women that had been found murdered.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
Despite their cooperation, investigators were making little headway in either case. Then on October 12, 1974, less than six months after Janet's murder, another young woman was killed on the Stanford campus.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
Three brutal murders, three young female victims, the rash of unsolved killings became known as the Stamford murders. But were the three murders all connected?
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
By late 1974, police in the Bay Area were investigating a disturbing string of unsolved sexual attacks and murders. Three women had been assaulted and killed, Leslie Perloff, Janet Taylor, and Arliss Perry. The crimes came to be known as the Stanford murders.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
In Leslie's case, evidence that had been collected from the crime scene was put into storage. Items that included the scarf that was used to strangle her, her rain boots, and even the fingernails that were clipped and had been tested for blood. The case file, filled with dead ends and unanswered questions, was put on a shelf. Years went by.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
Along with being an aspiring lawyer, Leslie was also a passionate student of the arts and literature and had the promise of a bright future. In fact, it was art that led Leslie on a mission that day in February of 1972.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
While Noe saw no obvious gaps in the investigation, he also knew how much forensic science and technology had advanced since the 1970s.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
You know, Scott, I thought this was pretty impressive. You know, you certainly hope that evidence is always going to remain. But here we're talking about decades and specifically at a time that they weren't really that advanced as far as forensics to have found this and for it to be preserved in a usable form. That was a tip of the hat for me.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
What remained to be seen was whether A, there was indeed foreign DNA present, and B, whether it had degraded or was still in a condition that made it possible to create a DNA profile that could be used to potentially identify a suspect.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
First stop, CODIS, the combined DNA index system that can help match an unknown DNA profile with either a known offender already in the system or any other unidentified DNA from other crime scenes.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
Noe was also aware about the emerging forensic science field that it might hold the key to finding Leslie's killer, and that was genetic genealogy. And obviously, we've talked about that before. But basically, you know, people submit their own samples to various companies, whether it's to create family trees or find long-lost relatives.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
And at some point, police figured out that they could use those same databases to help solve cases, too. So in this case, while it wouldn't necessarily return the name of Leslie's killer, it might give you a brother or an uncle, and police could then take it from there.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
And it didn't take long before GEDmatch returned the name of a possible second or third cousin of the person who left his DNA under Leslie Perlov's fingernails. Police were then able to trace that family tree right back to Northern California.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
The details of the report read like a death foretold.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
There, John Getrue met a classmate named Margaret Williams. One evening, they went to a school function and Getrue offered to walk Margaret home.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
But as a juvenile offender, Getru was released when he turned 18. Shortly afterwards, he moved back to California.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
They also figured out where to find him.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
And so a plan was formed to secretively obtain Getrie's DNA.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
investigators strongly suspected that they had their man, but they now hope that they had the actual evidence to prove it.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
In the interview room at the Santa Clara County Sheriff's Office, Noe sat down with the person he believed had strangled and killed Leslie Perlov, a man that had been walking free for over 40 years.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
Using forensic genealogy, police in Palo Alto, California had positively ID'd DNA recovered from the 1973 murder of Leslie Perloff.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
Hours later, at about 10 p.m. that night, Leslie's car was spotted by local police. still parked at the entrance to the quarry, which was definitely unusual for the remote area.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
For the first 10 minutes or so, Getru said he had no idea why he'd been arrested and claimed to be suffering from memory loss.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
I'm Anasiga Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
And to your point, Scott, it really is like keeping them talking. And again, like you can see how Noe's doing it. He is starting very generally and he is almost tiptoeing down the road he wants to go in, as you can hear, as he keeps going forward with what he said next.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
Getrue, a man convicted of both murder and two sexual assaults of young women, was admitting that he was familiar with the crime scene area and that he'd even lived nearby. And after two hours of denials, Noe went a bit deeper with his questioning.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
In the end, Getru refused to admit to the crime.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
And it was a welcome phone call because Leslie's mom was beside herself with worry. She explained to the officer that she had expected her daughter home hours before. And for her not to check in was totally out of Leslie's character. That Leslie typically had a routine and stuck to it.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
And, you know, there's a reason that this expression, good cop, bad cop, came about because it's different interview styles, different personality styles that maybe if they don't connect with one, they'll connect with the other.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
And I don't know, Scott, just made me think of like a couple of years ago for AOM, we put this up on social media, like saying who would be the good cop, who would be the bad cop if you and I were going back and forth. So maybe a couple of years later, let's do it again for this episode. So check out our social media pages and we'll see what you think.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
Interview style-wise, how Scott and I would break it up. But back to this case. You know, at that point, Getrew asked for an attorney. And so obviously the interview ended. Ultimately, within that statement, although they spoke to him for a long time, he didn't confess. And he did, though, decide to take his chances at trial.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
And no, we will never forget calling the Perloff family to give them the news.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
San Mateo County submitted their evidence for comparative DNA analysis.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
John Getrie was subsequently arrested for the murder of Janet Taylor. Both women, Leslie Perloff and Janet Taylor, fought so hard against the attacks that they each ultimately provided the evidence needed to identify their killer.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
John Getrue was sentenced to life in prison without parole. Then in January 2023, nearly 50 years after Leslie Perlov's death, Getrue pleaded guilty to her murder.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
And in fact, for nearly 50 years, he had lived as an unassuming husband, stepfather, and even a Boy Scout leader. But he was also a predator and a killer.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
While nothing could replace Leslie or ease the pain of losing her, getting the answers about her killer were important to her family.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
The damage John Getrue caused seemingly had no end.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
We focused on Leslie Perla for this story and a bit on Janet Taylor and Arliss Perry, but Getru had multiple victims, some who survived and some who lost their lives due to his violence against them. Rather than focus on him, let's leave today's case remembering Leslie Perla. Janet and Arliss, young lives lost, young women that were loved by many.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
Tune in next week for another new episode of Anatomy of Murder. Anatomy of Murder is an AudioChuck original produced and created by Weinberger Media and Fresetti Media.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
This episode was written and produced by Elizabeth Tyson. Researched by Kate Cooper. Edited by Ali Sirwa and Philjean Grande. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
And that's what they did. By morning, the police were searching for Leslie, but there was no sign of her. And while Leslie was technically an adult, there was enough troubling details about her disappearance that they treated this as a potential crime or missing persons case.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
Palo Alto, California is an idyllic Northern California city, perhaps best known as the crown jewel of Silicon Valley, the birthplace of tech giants like Facebook, Apple, and Google. It's also home to Stanford University, whose gorgeous campus in the foothills of Santa Clara County has attracted some of the world's best and brightest young people for over a century.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
But despite the information coming from fellow law enforcement, the lead proved to be little help in finding Leslie. Police had no license plate number and no other signs of the man or his car were reported or found. Investigators next turned to Leslie's car and forensics, hoping for a lead.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
The coincidence of finding this victim of a recent self-inflicted gunshot wound during a search for a missing woman was too much to ignore. Police had to consider that this unidentified man may have had something to do with Leslie's disappearance.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
Investigators were back at square one. They continued their search of the hills, adding officers on horseback to the team. And as the critical first 48 hours passed, Leslie's family began to fear the worst.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
We do want to warn you that the description of the attack is graphic, disturbing, and may be triggering for some.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
So, Scott, you know, even beyond the obvious horror here, like you do have to start to think about, well, what does this scene tell us about the person who did this to Leslie?
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
You know, and the one thing that stands out to me very clearly while there's lots of question marks is this like power, control, possible misogyny or actually definite, I think, misogyny, hatred of women just by the way he took what is normally a woman's piece of clothing, you know, her clothes. her pantyhose, her tights, whatever she was wearing, and used that to quiet her or subdue her.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
As investigators examined the crime scene for clues, another detail left them with more questions than answers.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
At autopsy, it was confirmed that Leslie had been severely beaten and that strangulation was the cause of her death. The medical examiner also made another discovery during the exam.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
Despite Leslie's state of undress when she was found, there was no actual physical evidence of a completed sexual assault, which led investigators to wonder whether it was that Leslie had managed to fight off her attacker or or at least what became clear, died trying.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
Remember, this was the 1970s, and DNA testing was not an available technology at the time. But investigators could use blood typing to at least narrow down a pool of suspects.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
With no other identifying evidence and no witnesses to the crime... Police were faced with an almost impossible task. Leslie's killer could literally be anyone, even possibly someone she knew.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
People that may have known her routine, someone who may have followed her to the hills, and who had a dark desire to kill.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
And starting in May of 1972, there had been a string of unsolved murders of young women in the Bay Area, including college students and hitchhikers from nearby Berkeley and Santa Cruz, murders that would later be connected and attributed to Ed Kemper, nicknamed the co-ed killer. So you can only imagine the fear that the community must have been experiencing.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
Today's story begins back on February 13th, 1973, when a recent Stanford graduate, 21-year-old Leslie Perloff, left the local law library where she worked.
Anatomy of Murder
Similarly Tragic (Leslie Perlov & Janet Taylor)
At that point, no one was beyond suspicion. But one by one, the police were able to investigate each tip and eliminate them as connected to Leslie's case.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
You know, Scott, while everyone seems to already be tilting their head, you know, he happened to be the last person who actually saw Nikki. And then all of a sudden he's gone for a while. His statements, they don't seem to make a lot of sense.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
But as we know, it is far from being in a place that he could be charged or certainly prosecuted just because he is piquing their interest the more and more they learn.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
Again... morally repugnant to be prejudiced against anyone for one reason or another. But his transphobia, what it does do, at least maybe, it might start to be providing a motive about whatever happened to Nikki. And even though they couldn't hold Bogdanov, the Vancouver police weren't about to let him out of their sight.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
It's also the seat of Clark County, where in 2021, a rookie prosecutor named Kristen Arno teamed up with veteran Colin Hayes to handle a case that not only captured worldwide attention, but that has had a lasting impact on their state's legal system.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
On the night he claimed to meet Nikki, Bogdanov's phone records showed him driving to Brush Prairie, a 20-minute drive north of downtown Vancouver, just as he told the detectives he had.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
Larch Mountain is about 15 miles east of Brush Prairie and in the opposite direction of Portland. So if the Vancouver detectives were already suspicious about most of Bogdanov's story, now they had pretty good proof that he was lying.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
Bogdanov's trans and homophobic comments had more than raised eyebrows. They provided a plausible motive for a possible assault or worse. But while his lies about his location were extremely suspicious, a secret trip out into the wilderness still didn't give police enough cause to make an arrest.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
Without locating Nikki or other evidence that a crime had in fact occurred, the investigation was stuck at a standstill.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
That is, until a local man on a walk in the woods made a disturbing discovery, turning the search for Nikki Kuhnhausen into not just a homicide case, but a rallying cry for historic change in the state of Washington.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
When law enforcement responded to the scene, they discovered several items that suggested that the remains were likely those of 17-year-old Nikki Kuhnhausen, including rings she was known to wear and that she had been seen wearing on some of her social media posts.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
You might remember that large mountain where Nikki's remains were found was also the remote area where David Bogdanov's phone pinged on the night he admitted meeting Nikki Kuhnhausen. It was the connection that investigators needed to bring him back in for another round of questioning.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
At that point, the detectives arrested Bogdanov, and he was charged with second-degree murder and malicious harassment, a hate crime in Washington state.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
The high profile case was also Kristen Arnott's first trial as a new prosecutor.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
But there were still ways to build a convincing case against him and undermine his claims that he had nothing to do with Nikki's murder.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
It appeared that Bogdanov had actually fled the country just hours after his meeting with Nikki, which a jury was likely to see for what it was, a consciousness of guilt and attempt to avoid arrest.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
But as it turns out, convincing a jury that Bogdanov killed Nikki would not be as difficult as they thought. The real challenge would soon become what actually happened.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
In 2020, Nikki Kuhnhausen was a 17-year-old high school student who had a passion for makeup and hairstyling and dreamed of one day becoming a makeup artist.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
It may have come as a surprise, but it actually was something that Nikki's mother and victims' advocacy groups had feared. It is what has become known as the gay or trans panic defense, and it is predicated on the idea that an individual is somehow justified in actions taken in response to what is a perceived threat to their lives, namely the revelation that a sexual partner is gay or trans.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
And these are real issues for prosecutors and at trial. And I've encountered this defense more than once in the courtroom. You know, one case that quickly comes to mind, a defendant claimed that their own abuse as a child led them to panic when their victim supposedly made advances. And in that case, they were same sex. But I've also had cases.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
defendants who say that when they realized that the partner that they found out that they were trans and actually born a different sex than what they believe them to be. And I'll close by saying in those cases that the jury convicted both. But it was definitely a defense that you had to be worried that it might impact the jury or sway someone on the jury.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
So it needs to be dealt with, you know, head on from as early as jury selection if it's a defense that is viable, that is allowed to even come into court.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
And, you know, the National LGBTQIA Plus Bar Association, which is, of course, monitoring things around the country, says that this is a defense that they have seen work routinely because of bias against specifically trans people, because that's what we're talking about here. So these are fears that people that decide to be or are trans, that they are predatory.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
And obviously we know that isn't true. But again, as we know, Scott, this really had a lot to do with actual change in Washington state.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
Nevertheless, the defense was still preparing to prove that in his encounter with a 17-year-old Nikki, Bogdanov felt that his life was actually in danger.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
In addition to public pressure, the prosecutors were in a tough spot with their case against Bogdanov. He had pled self-defense, which they did not expect, at least not initially. So Kristen and Colin faced a lot of unknowns right off the bat. And most mysterious of all, what would Bogdanov say on the stand?
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
But then Bogdanov's testimony veered from what he had originally told police. He had originally claimed that after Nikki told him she was a trans female, he had pushed her away in anger and asked her to leave his van.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
You know, Scott, so much of what he is saying just makes absolutely no sense. I mean, just the phone cord alone, right? He has it. It's around her neck and that it had already been in this loop. So that when he happened to put it around her neck, that it tightened and she died. I mean, that just, it makes no sense. And it, of course, defies physics.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
And it was a fact that was supported by conclusions made by the medical examiner.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
And with all that change, one thing Nikki could always rely on was herself. So when she transitioned in high school and began living as a transgender woman, she did so with confidence and flair.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
Let's also not gloss over another fact that Bogdanov admitted he was armed and that he kept his gun in the car within reach. Another fact that makes it hard to believe that he would have felt that he was ever in imminent danger.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
the prosecution's strategy to disprove the defense's version of events that tried to cast Bogdanov as the victim and prove that Nikki's death was anything but accidental.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
As for Bogdanov's explanation for why he fled the country just hours after strangling Nikki to death?
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
The prosecution gave their closing arguments after two weeks at trial.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
Bogdanov was sentenced to 20 years in prison, which in Collins' estimation was not nearly enough.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
The Nikki Kuhn Hasn't Act, or Nikki's Law, went into effect in Washington state just a month before Bogdanov's murder trial began. The law closed the loophole that might have allowed Bogdanov to plead he had a diminished capacity to control himself when he learned of Nikki's identity.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
As of 2024, 21 states have enacted legislation like Nikki's Law that bans the LGBTQIA plus panic defense. A bill to ban the defense has been introduced in the U.S. House of Representatives.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
Nikki Kuhnhausen, a 17-year-old, was murdered. In some ways, that is where the case ends in all its horror right there. But of course, it makes it that much worse that it appears clear that Nikki was killed because of her identity.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
I think it's obvious that Nikki didn't have an easy life as a young child, and additionally that her gender identity would also likely have presented some unique challenges of its own, especially for someone as young as Nikki.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
Whether a person supports, doesn't know how to feel, or even if they disapprove about a person's lived gender identity, I hope that we all agree that violence is always wrong. Nikki lost her life at 17. By all accounts, she was strong and proud. She should have had many, many more years to be exactly whoever she wanted to be. Tune in next week for another new episode of Anatomy of Murder.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
Anatomy of Murder is an AudioChuck original. Produced and created by Weinberger Media and Fresetti Media. Ashley Flowers is executive producer. This episode was written and produced by Morgan Beattie. Researched by Kate Cooper. Edited by Ali Sirwa and Philjean Grande. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
So naturally, when Nikki's social media feeds went quiet on June of 2019, her mom had a feeling that something was not quite right.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
By that time, Nikki had made a habit of staying with friends more than either of her parents. But now Lisa couldn't find any friends who knew where Nikki was.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
I'm Anastasia Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
The Digital Evidence Crimes Unit is equipped to use a person's digital footprint, whether it's their phone, computer, or even social media, to track a person's location. Unfortunately, according to friends, Nikki had lost her phone somewhere in Portland a couple of days before she went missing. So unfortunately, the unit couldn't access the wealth of information that a cell phone can provide.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
But Nikki was still a month shy of her 18th birthday, which meant she was a minor. And her mom was convinced that Nikki had not intentionally cut off communication or run away.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
Three weeks later, Nikki's mom turned up what would prove to be some very useful information. Nikki had borrowed a friend's phone the night she disappeared.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
Using that friend's phone, Nikki had logged into her own Snapchat account.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
There were over 19,000 homicides reported in the United States in the last year alone. But it doesn't take a true crime fan to tell you that some crimes or their sensational trials capture the public's attention more than others.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
And so, Scott, here you know some of the obvious questions for investigators and maybe her own family and friends. It's like, who was this person that she may have gone to meet? Was it a date? Was it—we know that, unfortunately, she had some narcotics going on in her background. So did it have something to do with that? All things investigators would need to look at and see if they could rule out.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
So for whatever the reason for meeting up with this at least supposed stranger, it did give investigators an important next step in the search for Nikki, a name.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
Investigators even pursued warrants for his cell phone data, but like Nikki, the 25-year-old seemed to have vanished.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
Then in late September, nearly four months after Nikki went missing, a detective finally got a response from Bogdanov on Snapchat. And Bogdanov said he was willing to meet with police, just as the detective had requested.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
But according to Bogdanov, the reason he had been unreachable for months was simply because he had failed to pay his bills.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
Detectives believed that he was the last person to be in contact with the missing teenager, so they had been trying to find Bogdanov for weeks. What he said, and more importantly, how he said it, would provide investigators with their first big lead.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
Bogdanov also claimed that his cell phone had been shut off because he couldn't pay the bill, which would explain why the police had trouble contacting him for weeks.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
According to Bogdanov, he'd been out bar hopping in Vancouver with his two brothers when he spotted Nikki walking down the street alone. Here is part of the recording of Bogdanov speaking with the detectives in the interview room.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
But even when a case sometimes starts to feel like a runaway freight train, with everyone from cable news to internet sleuths chiming in with an opinion, it is critical that those members of law enforcement and prosecutors stay focused on the facts, the evidence, and ultimately, hopefully, the truth.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
And then he claimed that after leaving Nikki, he and his brothers went to his sister's house in downtown Vancouver. And that's where he and Nikki exchanged their first messages over Snapchat.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
But instead, the adult and the minor teenager headed in the direction of his family's home just outside Vancouver. Whether he had expectations of a sexual encounter, he didn't say. But he did admit that it was here that their night took a dramatic turn.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
Bogdanov repeated his version of that night for 20 more minutes until the detectives decided to end the interview and send him home.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
In the video, you can see the car begin to visibly shake, an indication of some kind of violent struggle.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
Nowhere was there any evidence that Savannah had left the back seat of his car.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
And while his relationship with Savannah was a known secret at work, there had been no indications that it was ever volatile or abusive.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
The plan was to confront Lee at the restaurant under the guise of routine questioning.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
So he admitted that he had a casual romantic relationship with Savannah, but he made his first big mistake when he lied about the last time he saw her.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
And that moment right there, knowing they had caught this person of interest in a blatant lie, that had to feel good for detectives. And when I say felt good, meaning they felt like they were getting somewhere towards finding out what happened to Savannah, or better yet, just finding her.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
While it doesn't prove anything just yet, it certainly told them that they were very likely on the right track.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
At that point, Ray and his partner decided to end the interview, careful not to tip their hand that they were on to him, a move that perfectly demonstrated Ray's deft touch.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
And the priority was to find Savannah. And Ray hoped traces on Lee's cell phone might reveal her location.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
The minor charges gave them reason to return to the restaurant and make an arrest. But it was also the perfect ruse to potentially extract more information about his involvement in Savannah's disappearance.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
Little did he know that Mr. Nice Guy and his partner were veteran interrogators and experts at rooting out the truth.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
72 hours after 23-year-old Savannah Gold was reported missing, Ray and Michelle were facing off against the man they believed knew where she was, and more ominously, what he might have done to her.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
And as you will hear, it also creates that all-important human connection between suspect and investigator, one that can pay surprising dividends, like when Rodarte admitted he lied in his initial interview about the last time he saw Savannah.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
The timeline and the details of his arrival matched the video evidence investigators had already collected, which was a good start.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
In his signature bow tie, Ray's approachable demeanor was often a comfort to the victims of crimes. But as a homicide investigator, he was also forced to confront the dark side of some people in his community as well.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
Rodarte claims Savannah got out of the car and walked alone towards the parking lot exit. Details contradicted by the video. But as the old saying goes, never interrupt your enemy when he's making a mistake.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
The fact was the video proved Savannah had never left the backseat of his car. But Ray and Michelle were content to let Rodarte dig himself a deeper and deeper hole. And many of you out there will know that Ray and I think very similarly when it comes to certain statements by what he told Scott next.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
When Ray and Michelle finally confronted Rodarte with the existence of the video footage that contradicted his story, he continued to insist that she had left his car. But in the video recording of that interview, you can really almost see in his body language that his grip on his weak alibi was starting to slip.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
And you can hear the emotion rising in their voices, especially that of Ray's partner, Michelle. It was likely that they saw a chink in their suspect's armor and they knew that this was the time to try their best to get him to take off his armor and finally come clean.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
After several hours of questioning, Ray and Michelle sensed it was now or never to, within the bounds of the law, press for a confession.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
In August of 2017, 21-year-old Savannah Gold was living with her parents and her older brother in a comfortable home in Jacksonville, Florida.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
Their suspect was nearing the point of no return. Would he double down on the lie, or would he confess and finally tell the truth?
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
It was an unbelievably tragic, but not wholly unexpected, turn in what was until that point a missing persons case. Savannah Gold had been murdered.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
But most critically, there was what he didn't do. He didn't call 911. He didn't drive her to a hospital. He didn't do anything to try and save her life, which means this was no accident. This was a deliberate and intentional act of homicide. And then evidence by the way he so calmly got out of his car and slashed her tires, proof that it was also a crime that he was determined to get away with.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
Rodarte described how he drove Savannah's body to his house and then dragged her into his backyard, where he attempted to burn her body in a makeshift fire pit.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
The details of Savannah's fate are almost too hard to imagine. But as horrible as they are, for the detectives, there also must have been a sense of solace. Finally, they at least had the answers now that they'd been looking for.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
Members of the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office were immediately dispatched to the location.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
When detectives executed a search warrant over Daugherty's house, they found more items that verified the details of his confession, including gasoline, the fire pit, and pillows that matched the blanket used to wrap Savannah's body.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
I'm Anastasia Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
Prior to Rodarte's trial, his legal team filed what's called a stand-your-ground motion, claiming that Savannah had attacked him in the backseat of his car and that he grabbed her neck in an effort to defend himself, resulting in her death. So despite his confession, Rodarte did not take full responsibility for his actions when he got to court.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
For sure. And there were also other things that pointed to this self-defense claim being completely untrue. But I think that the best evidence that this wasn't an accident was what he did in the immediate aftermath of her death. He didn't call for help or attempt to resuscitate her. Instead, he attempted to cover up his crime by slashing her tires to make it look like she may have been abducted.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
And then he disposed of her body in one of the cruelest ways imaginable.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
Savannah defended herself against a bully, even leaving the marks of her efforts on his neck. But in the end, the 29-year-old man overpowered her.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
Florida prosecutors had a strong case to seek the death penalty. But in the end, Savannah's own family demonstrated mercy, mercy never afforded to their young daughter.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
For the last two years, Savannah and her brother had been working as servers at the Bonefish Grill, a popular restaurant in the Mandarin neighborhood south of downtown Jacksonville. And so at about 5.15 on the afternoon of August 2nd, she left her family's home wearing her white chef-style uniform shirt and drove herself to the restaurant to report for work.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
the murder of a loved one is a life-changing event that can cause, of course, lasting trauma. But it's also important to know the effect they can have on the members of law enforcement and prosecutors that dedicate themselves to seeking justice for these victims.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
What happened to Savannah is yet another reminder of how very precious every day of life can truly be. She went to work one evening thinking it would be like any other night, but it would prove to be her last night alive. taken from this earth forever by violence, leaving her family and I'm sure so many other people left to mourn the loss and be forever impacted and changed.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
Savannah fought her attacker and part of that fight was captured on video, so she herself very much helped law enforcement catch her killer. At 21, her adult life should have been just getting started. After her death, her family held a vigil at a local park that Savannah loved.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
It was a place she had spent many happy hours climbing its trees, riding her bicycle along its windy paths, and simply enjoying its peacefulness and beauty. And that imagery of Savannah Gold is now hopefully how this AOM community will forever remember her. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? No! No!
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
Moments later, Savannah's brother received a similar message, one that was both suspicious and completely out of character.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
Calls and texts to Savannah's phone went unanswered, and so Savannah's mom decided to drive down to the restaurant and find out herself if anyone knew what was going on.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
Let's talk about confessions. For detectives, eliciting an admission of guilt from a suspect can be a dramatic and satisfying conclusion to any criminal investigation.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
Okay, so maybe she got a flat tire and went for help, leaving her purse behind. And while super unlikely, maybe she left with this mysterious boyfriend in his car. There were still tons of possibilities, but none of them were giving her mother much comfort. So she did what any worried mom would do. She called the police.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
Uniformed officers from the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office responded to the shopping center where the restaurant was located. The first thing they noticed was that her car's tire was not just flat, it had been deliberately slashed, an ominous sign.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
This being 2017 at a popular shopping center, the police were pretty optimistic that between the ATM cameras and exterior CCTV, there should be footage capturing Savannah's movements in and out of the parking lot.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
Along with his partner, Michelle Selig, Ray knew the best place to start was right at the beginning.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
And again, she wouldn't be the first young person or person at all who didn't let their family know about the person that they were romantically involved with for one reason or another. And also, you know, maybe she had some sort of lifestyle that she was keeping a secret. All these things are possibilities, but again, zero outward signs or any clues leading to that conclusion.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
Because again, Scott, we can look at the other side to see about the things that just didn't add up.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
And of course, there's that classic good cop, bad cop. Although honestly, in my experience, I will say that the adversarial approach is definitely more common in TV and movies than real life.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
And I just think you hit the nail right on the head, Scott, because again, she never missed work. And if you were going to leave town, why then when she was supposed to be at work, would she do it? And also leave your car in front of your job. Like nothing added up to any innocent explanation.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
investigators zeroed in on Savannah's coworkers at the Bonefish Grill to gather any information that they might have about her relationships, her recent behavior, and any unusual events that may have preceded her disappearance.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
But when asked if there was anyone she had an especially close or contentious relationship with, several employees mentioned one person in particular, their 29-year-old manager, Lee Rodarte.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
But there was one problem with that theory. Lee had been seen at the restaurant the following day.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
And the details of that conversation will turn this missing persons case into something entirely more sinister.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
Who, we should remind you, was also seen parked in front of the restaurant on the day she went missing.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
No matter the approach, the goal is always the same. Keep the suspect talking. But to accomplish that, every investigator must lean into his or her particular strengths and personality traits in order to make a connection with the suspect. Because without that connection, without that feeling of trust, the truth may refuse to surface. And that failure can sometimes be a matter of life or death.
Anatomy of Murder
Last Shift (Savannah Gold)
The video footage then captured the details of their strange interaction.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
Now, there was also nothing in Nicole's past that indicated she was an irresponsible or abusive parent. No history of arrests, no calls to child services, nothing.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
And remember, according to both Nicole and Billy on the morning of her visit, Logan was happy and healthy, showing no indications that a child was in distress or that he had suffered a recent injury of any kind and a mom would have known.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
And keep in mind the severe nature of Logan's injuries. While sometimes a fatal ailment can go undetected and manifest themselves suddenly and fatally, head injuries as severe as Logan's, they would have been nearly impossible for the child to ignore or not show obvious signs of distress.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
When questioned by investigators, Billy continued to deny he had ever put a hand on the child intentionally or otherwise.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
As they stepped into a cluttered shed, investigators immediately noticed some things that didn't look quite right. Nothing obvious like a bloody murder weapon or smoking gun, but certain things that awakened the feeling in a cop's gut that something was wrong.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
To investigators, it felt like someone had hastily staged the scene in the shed to match what Billy had told Nicole and the police and cleaned up any other evidence that may have contradicted it.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
In fact, investigators found it strange that if Billy and Nicole both took off from their respective start locations to meet at the hospital, why was Nicole able to cover nearly five miles in those 13 minutes, while Billy only covered a mile. The only explanation was that Billy did not actually leave immediately after the phone call.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
Thankfully, the initial deputy had taken some photographs, and those photographs were compared to the photos later taken by homicide investigators.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
And when Josh says worst offenders, that would certainly include the rare, but not rare enough, instances of child murder.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
what appeared to be blood on the same mattress and pillow where baby Logan had slept. Were they just random old stains on a dirty mattress, as Billy would claim, or were they evidence of a murder?
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
But the scene inside the trailer held other critical clues as well. But these clues were not in the form of the items that were there, but rather things that were not there.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
And thanks to Billy's next-door neighbor, investigators thought they knew how.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
And I'd go as far to say that this was not just suspicious behavior. It was likely criminal, especially if there were items in that burn pile that belonged to Logan or were relevant to the investigation.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
Palaszczuk was a friend of the child's mother, someone she even described as a godfather-type person in his life. And while he did have a history of drug use, this was not a man with a record of violent crime or abuse. And yet, the evidence was pointing to the fact that he was somehow responsible for deliberately and brutally taking a seven-month-old baby's life.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
Palaszczuk was arrested and charged with the murder of seven-month-old Logan Atkins. After his indictment, he was taken to jail where he sat awaiting trial. And during that time, he did not exactly help his case.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
Now that the county prosecutors were witnesses to his escape attempt, a change of prosecution was in order, which is how Josh and his trial partner, Andrew Roundtree, got involved in the case. And they would have their work cut out for them because Palaszczuk was still determined to claim he was not responsible for Logan's death.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
The trial of the man suspected for killing Logan Atkins was scheduled to begin nearly four years after the child's death.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
What the prosecution did not have to do was prove why Logan was killed or even how. Just that Billy Palaszczuk and Billy Palaszczuk alone deliberately caused the infant's injuries that resulted in his death.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
So, Anasiga, I'm not allowing for a moment to suggest that anyone who commits a crime like this to get any sympathy, even if they have regret, if in fact all of the evidence bears out. But the legal system, I'm sure you can help with this, Anasiga, you can dig into it, does allow some wiggle room when it comes to what a defendant would be charged with.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
And if the evidence shows that the event wasn't completely preplanned, more of an in-the-moment decision to harm resulting in death.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
The word regret is interesting. You know, in some cases, the evidence in the cover-up is stronger than the evidence in what leads up to the actual crime being committed. Because that's when killers panic. And sometimes, like in this case, they try to undo what they've already done, realizing what just happened.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
The defense continued to claim that Palaszczuk did not cause the baby's injuries.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
And it was true that Logan's mom had admitted that Logan had incurred a couple of bumps and bruises around the house. But these incidents were described as minor and not indicative of a pattern of abuse or neglect. And the prosecution put people on the stand to testify to that.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
In 2016, Nicole was a single mom trying to make ends meet. And when it came to taking care of Logan, she often relied on the help of friends and family, including her mom who lived in the area and a good friend named Billy Palaszczuk.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
This theoretical delay between a catastrophic injury and showing a reaction like crying or falling unconscious, or in this case death, is what doctors called a lucid interval.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
In other words, the best evidence that this was not a lucid interval was that there was no proof that the child had been injured at any time before he was in the care of the man accused of killing him.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
But to disprove these alternate theories, the prosecution would have to rely largely on the testimony of the baby's mother, Nicole.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
In the end, Nicole proved to be a believable and sympathetic witness.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
There was Logan's blood on his mattress, a witness that saw him burning potential evidence on the day Logan was killed and the evidence that Palaszczuk had moved evidence and staged the accident in his shed. But ultimately, It was not one piece of evidence that would convince a jury. It was the entire picture.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
But while most people were preparing to enjoy the Fourth of July holiday, Nicole had to do a night shift, so she asked Billy if he wouldn't mind watching Logan for the night.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
And after deliberating for several hours, they returned a verdict.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
For Nicole, her family, and the entire community that had grieved alongside them, it was a righteous and just punishment for the gravest of crimes.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
Nicole admitted that after the trial and the murder of her son, she suffered depression and sunk deeper into addiction, even spending some time in jail herself.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
Logan's case has had a profound and lasting effect on the prosecutors as well. To this day, it serves as both a reminder of the cruelty that some people are capable of and the certainty of their mission to achieve justice for the most innocent of victims.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
Adesika and I discussed this case long before the decision was made for us to cover it, because we know these stories are difficult on so many levels. Some crimes are so horrific, so unthinkable, that people struggle to believe they actually could ever happen, especially when the victims are infants. But silence doesn't erase reality.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
AOM exists to tell these difficult stories because they do matter. These cases are not just statistics. They represent lost lives, families torn apart, and an unimaginable level of pain. By shining a light on these tragedies, we honor the victims, ensure their stories are not forgotten. It's not just about the crime itself.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
It's about acknowledging the heartbreak, the fight for answers, and the strength of those left behind. Some stories are hard to hear, but that makes them even more important to tell.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
But Nicole still had errands to run back in town. And so she had asked Billy if he could keep watching the boy for a few more hours. Hey, as we all know it, sometimes it takes a village.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
At about 10 o'clock in the morning, Billy decided to take Logan out and get a little babysitting assist from his own mother who lived just down the road. And so he put Logan in his truck and drove the short distance to his mom's.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
It's a call that every parent dreads. The call from the babysitter telling you that there is something wrong with your child.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
At the very same time, Billy puts Logan's tiny unconscious body back into his truck and speeds off towards town.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
But when the officer approached Billy's truck, he immediately realized that this was no ordinary traffic stop.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
Logan was eventually rushed to the local hospital, but there was nothing EMS or doctors could do to save him. The seven-month-old was pronounced dead less than an hour after Billy's call to the child's mother.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
Billy lived in a small mobile home on a property cluttered with old appliances and farm equipment. And next to this mobile home was a small wooden shed that for all intents and purposes served as Billy's garage.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
As you're well aware of, these crimes do happen way too often than we would like to believe. And the fact that these young victims cannot advocate for themselves is precisely why we thought it might be a good reason for us to highlight some of their cases here.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
This horse trough looked like a large galvanized steel tub or garden container that was about three feet high and about four feet long. According to Billy, he placed Logan into the steel tub with just a few inches of water at the bottom. Then he did what every caretaker is told never to do. He walked away.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
The incident is not unlike so many horrific stories of accidental drownings that can occur in any household with a small child. In fact, the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission says that every year, 90 children drown inside the home, and two-thirds of those occur in a bathtub.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
There was, however, visible evidence that the seven-month-old had suffered a head injury.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
In other words, Logan had died not from drowning in the tub, but from blunt force trauma to the head, which had caused his tiny skull to fracture and his brain to hemorrhage.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
On July 4th, 2016, tragedy struck in the tiny town of LaGrange, Texas, where seven-month-old Logan Atkins was rushed to the hospital with injuries he sustained at the home of a babysitter.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
The investigation and resulting trial would confront issues of child abuse, parental responsibility, and most tragically, the murder of an innocent child.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
The medical examiner concluded that Logan's injuries were likely the result of a recent and deliberate blunt force trauma. And Texas Rangers were called in to investigate not an accident, but a homicide.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
which is why it was crucial to create an accurate timeline of events, including the verified whereabouts of anyone who had access to Logan for the hours leading up to his death, not just a babysitter, Billy Palaszczuk.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
But it wasn't just his strange reaction to the news of Michelle's murder that was turning heads. Before he had even returned to his home in Raleigh, it seemed Jason was already on the defensive.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
You know, it's an interesting thing. I think people's first reaction is, well, wait a second, if they ask for a lawyer, they must be hiding something. But, you know, my first reaction in reading this was literally like careful because as law enforcement, as prosecutors, you can't take anything adverse from someone exercising their right to remain silent, right?
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
And we do know that when people talk, if they're not telling the truth, they trip themselves up all the time. But also, you know, look, It could also just be exercising that right because they want a lawyer there to make sure there isn't something untoward by police, prosecutors, whatever it is. So it's an interesting thought.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
But again, I have to err on the side of caution here and just say that that is everyone's right. And while, yes, it's the optics that we just can't read into it, at least not yet.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
And as I've said repeatedly before, as a prosecutor, I like assembling all the various pieces of evidence that together hopefully give a complete picture. It can sometimes be even more compelling to a jury than a case relying on what witnesses saw and more compelling than a confession on its own. So not getting the cooperation of Jason Young here would not necessarily be a game changer.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
But there was one problem with assembling this puzzle, the forensic evidence. It wasn't really yielding the answers that investigators hoped it would.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
But of course, things don't always go according to plan, even for goal-oriented young women like Michelle and the most common cause, falling in love.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
But that's not to say that the presence of DNA elsewhere in the house couldn't contribute to the growing suspicion that he did in fact have a motive to kill his wife.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
But again, proof of infidelity and a suggestion of a potential motive does not equal proof of murder. What investigators needed was evidence that could connect Jason to the crime or crime scene itself.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
And it might not surprise some of you to know that much like the tire prints, the FBI actually keeps a database of the signature impressions made by a variety of different models of brand name shoes.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
And sure enough, on that receipt was a record of purchasing a pair of men's Hush Puppy shoes.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
The young shoe receipt was from the very same shoe store.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
And so far, they also had video proof that his alibi was pretty solid.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
That's when Richard discovered something very strange. Not all the cameras in the hotel seemed to be working that night.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
And the video footage that had once seemed to confirm his whereabouts the night of the murder was now opening a large hole in his alibi.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
Considering that police had not revealed the make and color of his car, this eyewitness account was already credible and promising.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
The cracks in his alibi were beginning to show. Search warrants for his internet browsing history would break them wide open.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
Jason Young's alibi for the night of his wife's murder was blown. His search history was sinister, and his shoes placed him at the scene of the crime.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
Unfortunately, even with that probable cause to search his car, police turned up no weapons, no bloody clothes, no bloodstains, nothing incriminating. Although, it was interesting that they also never found the clothes he was wearing in the videos from his Virginia business trip.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
It's the kind of sacrifice many mothers make all the time, putting careers on hold for the benefit of a growing family. But sadly, Michelle's act of selflessness and family-first priorities would have tragic consequences.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
And while the prosecutor does not have to prove a motive to prove someone is responsible for a homicide, it definitely would help if you could show a jury why Jason Young would act so viciously and kill his wife.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
But was it that relationship, or at least the relationship alone, that really motivated Jason Young to kill his wife? $4 million says it was likely only part of the equation.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
But like so many times before, Jason had somehow convinced or coerced her to do exactly what he wanted. But as a prosecutor, I'm thinking this reveals even more than just a motive.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
Jason had spent a lifetime of keeping up appearances, even to the point of convincing Michelle's own family that he had nothing to do with her death. But the mounting evidence was finally too much to ignore.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
You know, it's interesting. I think especially for people on the outside, you know, is it that there's not enough evidence or were investigators and prosecutors being overly careful? And a lot of times it comes down to door B or at least somewhere in between.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
You know, I always think about all those conversations in my office or in the supervisor's office in homicide that you're debating with detectives and we're often on the same page. Like, yeah, we have all this, but because it's circumstantial, we're just waiting for that one more thing that takes away what we— think might be the hindrance or the biggest hurdle in a case.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
But ultimately, there's that one thing you suspect, you believe, the evidence is growing, but it's not yet there. So it is that tough question, which is obviously subjective sometimes. When is it enough to walk into court, especially when a case is circumstantial?
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
And sometimes, again, it's us together, right, as we hammer out these cases, you know, whether it's you and me, Scott, talking it through or as a prosecutor with the investigators in these real-life situations in our offices. It's just sometimes we're just waiting for that thing that ultimately we're like, hey, it hasn't appeared. It's time to take our shot. And that's kind of what happened here.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
That delayed justice? As you can imagine, it was especially hard on Michelle's family.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
And basically with a civil case, that's not proof beyond a reasonable doubt. The burden of proof is different. It's a preponderance of the evidence. And the sentence is not prison, but monetary relief, often never collected.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
But families have definitely told me that they have filed them at least sometimes in part because they want to hear someone say that this person has been proven to have committed the crime.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
And soon afterwards, the prosecutor's office also charged Young with Michelle's murder.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
But as he had already shown for the last five years, Young would prove to be a formidable defendant.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
And you know what? It worked. His criminal trial ended in a mistrial with the jury deadlocked.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
Okay, a bit random, but not the strangest request in the world, especially for a close family that is used to being a regular part of each other's lives. And so at about 1.30 in the afternoon, Michelle's sister pulled into Michelle's driveway and let herself into the house.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
For Young's retrial in 2012, prosecutors were determined to take nothing for granted, and they even strengthened their case with new evidence, including a disturbing incident reported by a caregiver at Michelle's daughter's daycare.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
The prosecution painted a picture of a man who had researched methods of killing, had taken out extra life insurance on his wife, and planted an almost perfect alibi before ruthlessly carrying out his cold-blooded plan to murder the mother of his daughter and his unborn child.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
And he didn't seem to care whose lives he had to destroy to get it. His wife's, any of Michelle's family and friends, even his own daughter.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
And in fact, there was a really interesting detail that Richard described from the trial that I thought was really telling.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
Michelle's daughter is now 21 years old. The murder of her mother and the prosecution of her own father took up more than half of her young life. But the pain and trauma from that experience will likely last a lifetime.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
Michelle Young was murdered by her husband and her daughter. their daughter lost her mother. That little girl, now young woman, will never again be held in the arms of her mom, never have her mom to share her good days or her secrets, or be there in her times of need. And that is as brutal, albeit in a different way, as the violence Young inflicted on Michelle.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
He took Michelle's life and so, so much from his child. We remember you, Michelle Young, for the devoted mom you were and friend to so many. And to your daughter, we hope that she is still able to feel your love for her and your presence in her heart. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? I approve!
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
From her positioning, injuries, and the condition of the room itself, it was immediately clear that Michelle had been the victim of a violent attack.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
I'm Anastasia Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
Thankfully, Michelle's sister located the young girl unharmed and hiding in her parents' bed, her first question, what's wrong with mommy?
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
Adding to the tragedy was the loss of Michelle's unborn child.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
It could be argued that being a parent is the most selfless job there is. Every day, the careers, the sleep, and even the personal safety of moms and dads everywhere are being sacrificed for the well-being of a child.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
But the gruesome scene left behind, it obviously indicated a brutal and violent attack, a part of which may even have been witnessed by Michelle's young daughter. It does seem clear that she saw the aftermath. So was this a result of a botched break-in? Or was Michelle the premeditated target of someone's homicidal rage?
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
Whoever killed Michelle also took their time, striking her in the face and the head repeatedly, perhaps with a fist and then some other weapon, and also strangling her. There was no mercy and no mistaking the intention to end her life.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
By every account, she was also a devoted parent and spouse. But according to those close to Michelle, the same could not necessarily be said about her husband, Jason.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
At first glance, he and Michelle had seemed like an unlikely match. The friendly, family-first cheerleader and the slick guy with a mean streak. But you know what they say about opposites.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
While a disgruntled husband would typically be an obvious person of interest in a homicide like this, investigators did have real reason to believe he was not involved because Jason was out of town, at least 150 miles away on a sales trip to Hillsville, Virginia at the time of the murder.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
Now, obviously, investigators were prepared to dig into his alibi more deeply before they could eliminate him as a suspect. But it's important to note that even Michelle's family members were adamant that no matter what issues the couple was having, Jason was no killer.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
29-year-old Michelle Young was born on Long Island, New York, and grew up in a large, close-knit family that valued hard work, loyalty, and above all, each other.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
In November of 2006, 29-year-old Michelle Young, the pregnant mother of a two-year-old daughter, was mercilessly beaten to death in her own home.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
According to friends, the couple had been having some marital trouble, and there were even rumors of Jason's infidelity. And while eyebrows will raise, to say the least, it doesn't make a murder suspect at least not on its own, especially when he was on a business trip 150 miles away at the time of the homicide.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
Jason drove to Virginia on the afternoon of November 2nd, and video surveillance footage showed him in fact checking into a hotel the night Michelle was killed and checking back out the next morning.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
But in the frantic moments after Michelle's body was discovered, no one could reach him. Not Michelle's sister, not his mother, and not the police.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
But as you can imagine, police were curious if they would turn up any evidence at the scene that might contradict her statement.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
So this had all the makings of a classic and tragic love triangle, which meant that a motive for the altercation at the Walgreens parking lot may well have been coming into focus.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
On March 11, 2011, gunfire had broken out in a parking lot in Boise, Idaho. When the smoke cleared, two men had been shot. 41-year-old Rob Hall had survived. 30-year-old Emmett Corrigan had not.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
According to Candy Hall, she left her home around 9 p.m. to meet Emmett, parking next to his black Range Rover in the lot of a local Walgreens. Here's a recording from her interview with police on the night of the shooting.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
and just kind of looking around. As Emmett and Candy were driving back to the Walgreens pharmacy, Candy received a call from her irate husband, who had spotted Candy's car in the parking lot. Here's more of that interview with Candy Hall.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
It was clear from the beginning that Emmett was ambitious and eager to get on with his big plans for the future. In fact, he and Ashley had only been dating for two months before he popped the question.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
And when they returned to the parking lot, Rob was there waiting.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
At this point, Candy says that her attempts to de-escalate the situation failed, so she turned away and headed back to her car to leave.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
Candy's version of events painted Robert as a jealous man whose emotions might have spiraled out of control. However, she also claimed that Emmett was the aggressor in the confrontation.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
I mean, this is one of those things as prosecutors that we would, I mean, I'd probably use this in my opening and my summation, right? Because what Candy says, it's absolutely going to be admissible at trial. And here's your like legal trial evidence 101 for the day.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
It's called an excited utterance because she says it in the heat of the moment when she's still under, you know, that mindset of what is happening at that moment. And what she says clearly is pop, pop, pop. So you're going to have to look at it because it certainly seems that what she recounted during that call sounds like someone is intentionally firing multiple shots, at least initially.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
So I would go with the way that you ended that, Scott, with like, this is someone who is firing and then just maybe turn that gun on himself.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
And while firsthand witnesses can obviously be invaluable to a homicide investigation, Candy's relationship with both men meant that investigators would have to rely on physical evidence to verify her story. They can't know for sure if she's telling the truth or if maybe she was, I don't know, complicit in the murder or the cover-up, or maybe none of them.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
But now that this horror has happened, police have to consider if she is going to stick with the last man standing, her husband, Rob Hall.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
After a spring break honeymoon on the Oregon coast, Ashley went back to Utah State, a married woman. Their twins arrived during Emmett's first year of law school. The young couple was deeply in love, but as you can probably imagine, juggling books and babies is no easy task.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
One of the hardest things to face after she learned the truth about her husband's relationship with another woman was that she actually knew the other woman, Candy Hall. And while Emmett had described the older woman as just a friendly coworker, Ashley had always had her suspicions that there was something going on between them.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
On March 13th, 2011, investigators from Meridian Police sat down with Rob Hall. He'd been released from the hospital and now they were going to question him about the night of the shooting and try to get a clearer picture about what happened. Would he double down on what was sounding like an unlikely scenario or would he maybe come clean?
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
A trial was set for the fall of 2012, yet another painful ordeal to be endured by Emmett Corrigan's widow and their five young kids.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
The prosecution's case against Robert Hall was that he had gone to the Walgreens parking lot armed with a loaded, unholstered gun with the intention of confronting Emmett Corrigan. He had the motive, his wife's infidelity, the means, a loaded automatic handgun with a laser sight, and the opportunity, knowledge of exactly when and where to find his target.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
He also claimed that Emmett, who was younger and more physically imposing, had attacked him first during their argument, pushing him to the ground, taking the gun, and firing first, grazing Hall on the side of his head.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
Those tests proved that Hall was the only one who had fired the gun found at the scene. Rob Hall's DNA was also found on the trigger.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
Prosecutors also pointed to Candy Hall's own recorded statement in which she described the sequence of gunshots that she heard.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
But the medical examiner determined that Emmett's wounds to his chest and head were instantly fatal. So then the question is, who fired that third shot? The prosecution's theory, Rob Hall himself.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
Incredibly, a statement surfaced from a jailmate of Hall's that this may not even have been a spur-of-the-moment decision.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
And I agree that I really think it's the front end of this that is so telling. I mean, let's just look at this. You have Rob Paul going to the place that he believes his wife to be with the man that he believes she is having an extramarital affair with. He doesn't just go on his own. He brings a gun. He has the gun with him when he confronts them. You have Candy's quick response
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
rendition of the way that those gunshots are heard. Remember, she is saying that as the 911 operator is taking the call, as the officers are first responding. I mean, that is within moments before she has time to think or reflect or to make up like what might sound or what might help her husband at that point.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
It really does point to the fact that, again, whether he planned to go kill him or just planned to confront him and hurt him. And then again, in that heat of passion, which what that does, it's still a crime, but it takes it potentially from murder to manslaughter. It definitely seems to point much more in that direction just based on common sense than with what Hall is saying to police.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
And even after the initial confrontation in the parking lot, Hall still had time to de-escalate that situation if he wanted to, right? He could have simply left. Instead, he drew his weapon and fired more than once. And keep in mind, it wasn't just any weapon.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
Candy Hall did finally admit that she and Emmett were indeed involved in a physical relationship and that on the night of the murder, the plan was not just to drive around and talk as she told police.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
But in the end, Candy Hall came to her husband's defense, testifying that she had never intended to leave him and was committed to their marriage.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
It was clear to the judge and jury that Candy had changed her story. And so the veracity, the truthfulness of her entire testimony was thrown into question.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
On October 25th, 2012, Rob Hall was convicted of second-degree murder and sentenced to 30 years to life in prison.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
But according to Ashley, she had some reservations about putting down roots in Boise, a place where she knew Emmett had a long and sometimes troubled history.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
Incidentally, just two months after the trial, Candy Hall would be convicted of theft for embezzling $300,000 from a former employee and sentenced to 14 years in prison.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
Through her blog, her now multiple books, and speaking engagements, Ashley hopes to provide support for those dealing with grief, loss, and trauma, particularly focusing on widowhood and surviving infidelity and homicide.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
And we want to thank Ashley for being so candid about her experience with such a traumatic and painful event in her life, one in which she and her kids will always be coping and healing.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
What happened to Emmett Corrigan is awful. And yes, Emmett's infidelity was wrong, obviously. But Rob Paul's revenge? You don't get to take a life because someone did you wrong. Paul also took a father away from five children and a husband from a woman, Ashley, who still loved him very much and at least at the time wanted to try and make their family work and to get it back on track.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
Talking with Ashley for this interview struck me for many reasons. For the pain she lived through while she didn't know what was wrong in her marriage. And then to be hit head on with her husband's murder, his infidelity, and that the murder was at the hand of the husband of the other partner in the affair. Devastating.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
Yet even with all that, it is Ashley's openness and strength that stays with me even now. She made it back into light out of deep darkness. It is Ashley's goal to help others out of the darkness by sharing her experience. And for me, for us, that says so much about who she is. Survivor Strong. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? I approve!
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
I'm Anastasia Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
After opening his own law practice, Emmett was working long hours, regularly staying late at the office. And with Ashley juggling five kids at home, the couple began to experience what many couples do, a growing distance between them, both physical and emotional.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
But by February of 2011, Ashley felt that there was something else causing a rift in their marriage. It was a rising suspicion that her husband was hiding something from her, that perhaps he was not being faithful.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
We've often said that our primary goal on this podcast is to advocate for not just the victims of violent crimes, but for the survivors as well.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
On the evening of March 11th, Ashley set Emmett down for a heart-to-heart, baring her soul in the hopes that Emmett would do the same.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
As Ashley recounted to us, she finally convinced Emmett to speak to a friend who was also a marriage counselor.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
At a little before 9 p.m., Emmett left. It was the last time Ashley would see him alive.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
One of the 911 calls was from a woman identifying herself as Candy Hall. And in the recording, you can hear her frantically begging for help.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
On top? Okay. Who shot you? Do you know who did it? Robert Hall had what looked like a graze wound to the side of his head, but was still conscious. Emmett Corrigan, lying just a few feet away, had suffered two gunshot wounds, one to the chest and one to the head. He was declared dead at the scene. Ashley Boyson would get the news about her husband just a few minutes later.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
Today's story is as much about its survivors as it is about the victim. It's about a mother and her then five children whose lives were forever changed by a deadly incident of gun violence. But for Ashley Boyson, the survivor's journey has also been about reconciliation, not only with the homicide, but also with the betrayal that led directly to that tragedy.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
The plainclothes detectives informed Ashley that her husband had been shot. News that was still almost impossible for her to process.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
That second bullet entered his skull, and I'm going to be pretty specific here. The bullet entered just inside the hairline of his upper right forehead, traveled in a slight downward and leftward direction through the entire right side of his brain.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
Hall was a 41-year-old former deputy and part-time salesman who lived just a few minutes away from where the shooting took place.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
Hall went on to describe how he then managed to wrestle the gun away from Emmett and return fire, striking Emmett twice, once in the chest and once in the head. He claimed that he acted instinctually out of fear for his own life.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
So was this argument over a parking space? A falling out between friends or business partners? To answer those questions, police would rely on the one witness that actually witnessed the shooting, Rob Hall's wife, Candy Hall.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
The first and most important revelation, these two men were not strangers. And this argument was not over a parking space or business. It was over her.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
When police asked Candy if she and Emmett had a romantic relationship, she denied it.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
But while investigators couldn't ID the suspects from the video, they were able to make out one critical piece of evidence, a glimpse of the murder weapon.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
And among the three people was the young female that Dwight was playfully carrying down the hall.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
It's a skill set that prepared him well for a career as a homicide investigator.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
Christy Parisian was a 17-year-old high school student and, according to witnesses questioned at Miramar High, a friend of Dwight Grant.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
Hey guys, we have some exciting news. Scott and I are hitting the road, and this time, we hope you're coming with us.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
We'll talk through a powerful case together, but it's also an evening of community, this AOM community.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
In Miramar, Florida, an 18-year-old high school senior was found stabbed to death just footsteps from his family's front door.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
And, you know, of course, people hearing it is like, look, is it even possible that a person like this would have just been a witness and not one of the assailants? And I'm going to say, like, playing devil's advocate and having seen them before, easily she's shown first to be friendly with the victim. She isn't seen participating, at least on this portion of the video that we're talking about.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
And she leaves, walking away with two other people that clearly would be suspects. But I will say there is definitely something that you have to keep in mind is that she could be scared, right? And that's something that has to be assessed, right? He's attacked, she's scared and keeps what she knows to herself out of fear of repercussions.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
It could go both ways, but it's something they have to really look at closely.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
And now at this time in October of 2021, being that Parisian was only 17 years old, so now legally still not yet an adult, the investigators were very cognizant of the procedures for questioning her. And while they had their suspicions, they didn't yet know for sure of her actual involvement in this crime.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
Clearly, the 17-year-old had no idea how extensively the security footage had captured her movements on the day of the murder, including her standing by during the attack and walking away side by side with the assailants after Dwight was killed.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
A joke about murder? It's the kind of detail that is too coincidental to not be true.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
The two detectives and Parisian settled into an interview room at the Miramar PD for an extensive interview, one in which Parisian's story continues to veer this way and that, but steering clear of the truth.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
But she stopped short of admitting that she knew Clemens was there ready to ambush Dwight. In fact, she claimed she had changed her mind and left the stairwell, having no idea what happened next.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
Investigators still had not identified the murder weapon used in the homicide, but they had a suspicion that the long, narrow object in her hand, that was at least one of the weapons used to kill Dwight Grant. And Parisian was about to confirm it entirely by accident.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
And in the course of trying to weave another lie, Parisian also let slip the name of a third suspect in Dwight's murder.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
It's almost as if she couldn't help herself from giving investigators the very clues they needed to prove her involvement in Dwight's murder.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
And as Pedro can attest, it's also a wonderful place to call home and raise a family, as evidenced by the increasing number of high school-aged kids in Broward County and surrounding areas.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
Like Christy Parisian and the victim, Dwight Grant, Andre Clemens and Jazlyn Smith were also students at Miramar High School. What could have motivated these three people to murder a friend and a classmate was still a mystery.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
Once again, investigators were very deliberate and careful to both respect the suspect's rights and not lose an opportunity to gather critical information. Pedro and another investigator spoke with both Jazlyn and her mom.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
And while I'm sure her mother's priority was to protect her daughter, you also have to wonder how much her presence may have actually encouraged her daughter to cooperate with the police. You can kind of hear her lecturing her daughter here as recorded by the officer's body cam.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
Unbeknownst to both of them, the car was equipped with an audio recording device, which captured their conversation. What follows is a portion of that recording.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
The two teenage girls were discussing their accomplice in the murder, Andre Clemens, who they seem to be blaming for instigating this plan while simultaneously incriminating themselves in premeditated murder.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
Dwight and his mom lived in an apartment complex that was home to a lot of similar families, working parents and independent children who were often responsible for getting themselves to and from school, taking care of younger siblings, and even taking on part-time jobs.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
After the girls were separated, Jazlyn Smith was asked to give her account, still in the police car, but now with her mother present.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
According to Smith, it was her friend Andre Clemens who had recruited her to participate in what she thought would be just a fight with another boy, a fight he claimed was retribution for Dwight's involvement with Clemens' girlfriend.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
She described the moment Dwight entered the stairwell how, sensing danger, he tried to flee, but Clemens and Smith ran him down and backed him into a corner of the stairwell while Jaslyn Smith was holding the sword. And we want to warn you that the following audio content is graphic and disturbing.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
Dwight's mom came home to a quiet house, and her calls to her son were going unanswered. And while that might have been typical behavior for many teenagers, in Dwight's case, it was cause for concern.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
In Smith's account, the weapons that killed Dwight were in Clement's hand, but it was clear that all three were complicit in the plan and the murder.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
With two of the suspects in custody, police set out to find Andre Clemens, the alleged mastermind, and according to Smith, the one who plunged the knife then sword into Dwight's neck and chest.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
Not surprisingly, Clemens was not as quick to confess.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
The only thing missing from the investigation, or I should say the only two things, were the murder weapons. But thanks to his texts on his phone, police had a pretty good idea what had happened to them.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
You know, Scott, I just have to say it because this is one of those things that I think we get from TV more than anything. It's like, oh, my gosh, they don't have the murder weapon. Like, can they prove the case? But look, as a prosecutor and I think as a member of law enforcement, we know it's really not that uncommon.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
They're actually rarely located because the important thing is, you know, they were used based on the injury to your victims. Right. And here they already have the video corroborated by statements. They certainly have more than enough for a case right there.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
And, you know, interestingly, you have to think about where do they get most of their information about the details of this plan, right? And it's from both Jaslyn Smith and Christy Parisian. But again, you could not use those statements in court against Clemens, right? Not unless there's a deal made with these young women and they take the stand.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
But from law enforcement's point of view, Dwight could not yet technically be considered missing.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
So really, this case is going to come down unless those plans and those deals are put into place. It's going to be a circumstantial case with proof by the video that can corroborate these accounts immediately. If they make the deal and take the stand, you know, those statements alone, as we know, in court can't be used against accomplices.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
And that was exactly what investigators planned to find out.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
I'm Anastasia Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
So we're not going to get too deep into the laws about ages and juveniles and minors because, honestly, it is such a deep dive that we would be here for the next hour. There's a lot of legalese involved. But, you know, basically in Florida, at last reading, at 16 or 17, you can definitely be charged as an adult, but only certain cases, right?
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
Murder, kidnapping, assault, manslaughter, carjacking, and other violent offenses. But the reason for all these laws is that people realize that younger people do not have the same rights mindset and life experience, and also should sometimes be given those other chances and given lighter sentences, except obviously in the most serious of crimes.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
And the reality is, as we know, is that the reason that these nuances, these age factors make such a difference, whether you're in juvenile court or adult court, is the sentencing. If they are charged as juveniles, they could face a maximum of only 36 months.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
That's three years for these crimes in a juvenile detention center, where obviously there are much longer prison sentences if convicted at trial or plead guilty. So there's a lot to go into it. But here, as to your point, Scott— I mean, these three peoples clearly seemed to know right and wrong and showed little remorse.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
The decision to charge and try the three suspects as adults was understandably courting attention and controversy. If convicted, Clemens, Smith, and Parisian could face life in prison, but it was the brutality and callousness that drew even more attention.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
In the end, all three suspects decided to plead guilty and not go to trial, also avoiding the most severe penalty if they had.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
Justice served, but a tragedy for Dwight's family and heartbreak for the families of all four young people involved, three taken off to prison and one taken from this world for good.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
And until now, she believed she had done a good job of shielding her son from these dangers. Dwight liked computers. He liked to game. He was a bit of a homebody.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
From the first time I heard about this case, all I could think about was how can some people do things like this to others? As a homicide prosecutor, it's a question that I and many in this line of work have grappled with regularly as we handled so many cases of darkness over the years. But I don't want to give these defendants, Dwight Killers, the last moments of attention, even in this podcast.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
It should be about Dwight, an 18-year-old good kid, going to school, helping his mom, a good friend, and loving son. At sentencing, Dwight's mom spoke to the court through tears and said... The baby she once held in her arms, the young man she proudly watched him grow to be, is no longer here. For his mom and so many, the pain of this loss must be excruciating.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
But Dwight Grant, you are remembered, and it is clear you were very, very loved. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? No! No!
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
Another day passed, and Dwight's family and friends spent it passing out flyers and searching for him on foot. Dwight's mom was absolutely sick with worry, and she was also not the kind to just sit on her hands.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
According to a report published by the Council of Criminal Justice, a nonpartisan think tank based in Washington, D.C., there has been a notable decrease in crimes committed by juvenile offenders over the last decade. The one exception? Homicides.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
Her mother's intuition had been right. Her son had been in danger, and it was not the police, but her, his mom, that discovered the evidence that Dwight was not just missing, he was the victim of a crime.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
The officer went straight to the office of the property manager where the security footage was queued up.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
Protecting the integrity of a potential crime scene is a critical priority of any first responder. But in this case, creating that wide perimeter with crime scene tape also enabled the officer to make a shocking discovery.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
His suspicion was that this was evidence of a violent and bloody attack, but it would take an examination of the unidentified body to know for sure.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
But one thing was obvious. The young man had been severely beaten and stabbed multiple times, once in the neck and once in the chest. And it appeared he had been dead for at least 48 hours.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
And while investigators didn't know for sure if the victim was the missing teenager Dwight Grant, Pedro still had the responsibility of speaking to Dwight's mother and breaking the news to her about what they had discovered.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
Even more distressing is the fact that a large portion of those homicide victims were also young people.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
And that information came in the form of fingerprints. And sadly, the body left in the bushes was positively identified as 18-year-old Dwight Grant.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
According to Pedro, the first clue to who could have perpetrated such a heartless and brutal crime was revealed in the nature of the crime scene itself.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
The key in identifying Dwight's assailants would prove to be the security video of the attack. But not only was the video grainy, but the attackers appeared to be wearing hoodies and masks, disguising their identities.
Anatomy of Murder
Around the Corner (Dwight Grant)
A few minutes elapsed before you see Dwight walking out of the hallway of his building and into the stairwell. And he's actually seen carrying a female in the way that a friend might give someone a piggyback. Clearly, Dwight was not aware of what awaited him around the corner.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
The conclusions did reveal DNA belonging to another person in addition to Kathy, but they couldn't get more specific than that. So investigators next decided to test that DNA against several previous old suspects in the case.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
And over the years, North Aurora wasn't the only police department taking advantage of the advances in DNA technology.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
In January of 1976, a 16-year-old girl named Pam Maurer was at a friend's house on a snowy night.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
When police arrived, they noticed something that got their attention. A rubber hose lying next to the body. They took it in as potential evidence, and it was determined later to be related.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
The autopsy also concluded that there had been sexual activity sometime shortly before her death. But there were no signs of physical trauma, which at the time often steered investigations away from the potential of sexual assault. Of course, now we know that sexual assault can occur with and without obvious signs of physical injury.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
Some victims may struggle and some may react in the opposite manner. sometimes by freezing or even becoming passive out of absolute terrifying fear or shock.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
And so what happened to Pam Maurer, the case just sat like Kathy's for decades.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
But then, just about five years ago from now, investigators decided to take another look at Pam Maurer's case.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
The evidence in Pam's case had fortunately been, and in some ways miraculously been, preserved for decades, including a pair of jeans that had a yellowish stain on the pocket. Investigators thought that it looked consistent with semen.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
The DNA was put into a federal database, but they didn't get any matches. So investigators decided to try a novel approach, genetic genealogy, which is becoming more popular. So Lyle Police decided to look there.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
And Ryan actually has some crossover with our very own Scott Weinberger, but not in the way you might be thinking.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
But in his late 20s, Bruce Lindahl became known to authorities. He had died, but it wasn't straightforward. The story caught the eye of investigators in Pam's case. Bruce's death, they realized, may not be the end of his story.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
In a twist of fate, Bruce Lindahl severed his own femoral artery during the attack, and he bled to death at the scene, dying while committing the murder.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
And Scott, you know, you and I have seen and talked about multiple times that it really is not that uncommon for someone to be injured when they are specifically stabbing someone because they are in this frenzy, but certainly to bleed to death themselves, that is not the most common, to say the least.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
A woman had ridden her bike to the Northgate Shopping Center. If that location sounds familiar to you, it's because it's the same shopping center where Kathy Hawley had worked.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
When a neighbor finally answered, the young woman frantically explained what had happened. She described her attacker as having haunting, bright blue eyes. The homeowner immediately recognized the person she was describing based on the eyes as his neighbor who lived just a few doors away, Bruce Lindahl. And Lindahl then was quickly arrested and held on the assault, but was soon able to make bail.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
Two years passed without anyone knowing what had happened to Deb Colliander. Then in 1982, her body was found in a farm field about 15 miles south of North Aurora. Her death was ruled a homicide.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
There was also a photograph of Lindell himself. It turned out he looked strikingly similar to the photograph generated by the DNA phenotyping in Pat Maurer's case.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
In January of 2020, 48 years later, the Lyle Police Department announced they had identified Pam Maurer's killer. It was Bruce Lindahl. Their discovery triggered what's called a critical reach.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
There were more than a few similarities between the homicides of the two young women. Both Pam and Kathy were killed in a similar manner, within a 20-mile radius from each other and within a few years from one another.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
The investigation team at North Aurora decided to send Kathy's evidence to the lab, the same lab that had found Lindahl's DNA on Pam's evidence. Perhaps they would find the same DNA on Kathy's clothing. the main method used for that DNA collection at the lab was swabbing.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
The solving of Pam Maurer's homicide had given renewed hope to Kathy's investigators. So the inconclusive testing was a real letdown.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
It also mentioned Kathy's case, despite the fact that there was no conclusive evidence or court determinations, but it tied Lindahl to Kathy Halle's murder. The film put North Aurora investigators in an awkward position, especially with Kathy's family.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
While this was unfolding, Ryan attended a continuing education course, a requirement for his work as lead homicide investigator. During that course, Ryan had a lightbulb moment.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
It sprays a sterile solution and then vacuums it back up, collecting any DNA particles and fibers along the way. It can be more effective than the swabbing method, which is more regularly used for DNA extraction.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
Years later, when he began working in investigations, there was one case he was already familiar with. That's because it had been an open case unsolved for over 40 years.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
But testing Kathy's evidence would be far from simple.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
It was decided that despite the high chance of failure, testing the evidence in Kathy Holly's homicide case was important to try. The MBAC system, which would be used, might be the one thing that could overcome the degradation of evidence collected and preserved in this case.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
And he's like, hold on. The police department was committed to testing the evidence, but they needed a cost-effective way to do it. You know, that is one thing, Scott, that obviously if we think about it, people will get it. But I don't think that everyone necessarily thinks about it right away that, you know, you actually need the dollars to be able to spend to do some of this work.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
And that is something that specifically smaller departments come up against all the time.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
Ryan then reached out to nonprofit organizations, one of which was in fact established by the Audiochuck Network.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
The next hurdle Ryan faced was related to CODIS, which stands for the Combined DNA Index System. It's an FBI tool that enables forensic labs to exchange and compare DNA profiles electronically.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
It took extra work to make sure the testing would be CODIS eligible. Once that had been worked out, there was one last logistical hurdle, getting Kathy's evidence down to Deerfield Beach, Florida, where the specific lab was located.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
What happened to Kathy wasn't just another file in the drawer or on a shelf. It was the story that every officer knew, a reminder of justice still delayed but not forgotten.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
They were all risks that Ryan and his team weren't willing to take. So for them, it left only one solution.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
they eventually made it to the lab and signed the evidence over. The lab estimated it would take between six to eight months to complete the testing.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
And then they waited and waited. 14 months passed before any word came back from the lab.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
Ryan heard his phone ringing and looked down. It was the DNA expert he had been working with. Even though he was up in the mountains on vacation, he picked up the phone. She had gotten the results back.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
The moment of confirmation was deeply memorable, not just for its significance to the case, but to the answers it would finally bring Kathy's family. The results were brought to the local prosecutor and Kathy's case was officially marked closed.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
For Ryan, solving Kathy's murder had always been about giving her family the answers they had been waiting for for so long. Kathy's parents had been growing older and their time to get those answers was running out.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
Ryan and another detective who had spent years on the case alerted Kathy's family that there had been a major development. her parents and three siblings gathered together for a meeting.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
As Ryan sifted through the fading pages, he began to piece together the details of Kathy's life.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
Lindahl's interest in Kathy had likely begun before that night. They believe he had seen her on one of his many visits to the shopping center and had discovered where she lived. Lindahl had likely staked out her apartment complex and waited for the right time to attack.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
In a case where no courtroom justice could be served, Ryan hoped that the answers would at least bring Kathy's family a measure of peace.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
The new information also gave Kathy's then-boyfriend, who had been with her the night she disappeared, a sense of closure as well.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
For Ryan, closing Kathy's case was both a personal and professional milestone, a reflection of why he became an investigator in the first place.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
Her sister worked at a grocery store at the center. The pair often relied on each other for rides back and forth between work and their apartment about a mile apart. On the night of March 29, 1979, it was Kathy's turn to pick her sister up from work. She said goodbye to her roommate about 9 p.m. and headed out the door on her way to her car.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
can endure. Over the years, Kathy Holly's family has chosen not to be involved in media accounts of her story. We are told that they listened to some episodes of AOM and then gave their approval for Ryan Peete to be involved in this episode. That means so much to me and Scott.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
It's the very best validation that we are telling these stories with the victims and survivors in the forefront of our minds and that our mindset is clear by the way these cases are conveyed. Thank you to the Hawley family for allowing us to share Kathy's story and the work done on her behalf with this AOM community of listeners.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
As evidenced by their comments almost daily, their empathy and care is what you would hope for from people learning about the many victims of homicide week after week. Kathy Hawley, Pam Maurer, Deb Colliander, and Charles Huber, all victims of the same predator. We remember you each today, along with your families and loved ones who still grieve. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? No!
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
No!
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
The family called around to Kathy's friends and boyfriend to see if anyone knew where she was. But nobody did. Next, they tried to piece together her evening.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
Early the next morning, the family reported Kathy missing.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
It was Kathy's car, which was still parked on the opposite side of her apartment complex.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
Around the same time, another member of the family search party was looking around the apartment complex. The buildings were two-story structures with low, flat roofs.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
I'm Anastasia Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
It contained Kathy's identification and other belongings. The purse appeared fully intact, not rifled through or strewn about. It seemed almost like someone had tossed it from the ground below.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
Various items were observed and collected, including some quite personal in nature.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
Kathy Holly was officially entered into the police system as a missing person. While the blood was being processed, the investigation into her disappearance kicked into high gear. As part of that, police set up a perimeter around the apartment complex and began interviewing everyone they could in the hopes of finding witnesses.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
Some crimes raise more questions than answers. leaving families, friends, and entire communities trapped in the limbo of uncertainty.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
However, there was some information gathered by police as part of their neighborhood canvas that piqued their interest. One of the residents of that apartment complex said he had witnessed something strange around 9 p.m. the same night Kathy went missing.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
In hindsight, the description painted a grim picture. But when police went back to the neighbor to follow up what he had said, his story changed.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
It seemed like a warning and an acknowledgement that someone knew he had spoken to police and wanted him to stop. The End
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
Rumors swirled that he was driven by a guilty conscience. Despite the gossip, police again ruled him out as a suspect. For weeks, they continued to comb the area around Kathy's apartment, looking for anything that might aid them in finding Kathy and figure out what happened.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
Kathy's family was still also actively searching the area. Her father, who worked for the Federal Aviation Administration, brought a unique resource to the search—airplanes.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
The intense searches went on for weeks.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
The woman was fully clothed, wearing a coat and shoes. Kathy's disappearance was still fresh in people's minds, so police called her father down to the morgue to see if the woman was Kathy.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
And we do want to warn you that the description is unsettling and may be triggering for some. Kathy's face and neck showed signs of a violent struggle.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
her death was officially classified as a homicide.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
Although pieces of potential evidence were being gathered, the investigation faced a major roadblock. None of it pointed police to a suspect.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
Investigators work to uncover that truth, and in a case like this, to hopefully transform lingering questions into definitive answers. It's a role that requires determination and persistence, qualities that Detective Ryan Peete embodies.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
And so the case sat. Weeks became months, which became years, and eventually decades.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
Then in 1984, a scientific breakthrough changed everything. A British geneticist developed a technique called DNA fingerprinting. The method allowed scientists to isolate and identify variable elements within a DNA sequence. This made it possible to link DNA evidence to a specific person with unprecedented accuracy.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
Kevin's 12-year-old son had seen Taylor's car in front of their house, but couldn't say for certain that the man he saw fleeing was Taylor. And this being 1998, there were no cell phones to trace, no location data to track Taylor or Shelby's movements on the day of either murder.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
Confronted with Lisa's insinuations about Shelby's involvement in her husband's murder, Shelby fired back with a brow-raising statement of her own.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
Certainly a strange strategy, denying you are capable of murder while still revealing what you just might do if betrayed by a friend.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
So we have discussed before how it is legally permissible for law enforcement to use some deception in their efforts to speaking with and getting statements from a suspect. And just for quick review, the reasoning is that a suspect can answer however they want.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
If they didn't do anything, don't know anything, whatever, no matter what a detective says, they are going to only have presumably one answer to give, right? The lie, if you will, shouldn't matter unless you're guilty and then it just might be the thing that spurs the truth.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
And while Shelby was unlikely to believe the ruse, Michelle suspected that her two other potential accomplices, Terrence Bledsoe and Joe Jensen, that with them, this letter, it just might work.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
When questioned by Detective Michelle Amicone, Taylor denied having anything to do with Kevin's murder. But inconsistencies in his alibi were raising all kinds of red flags.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
Believing that he had already been incriminated by George Taylor, Bledsoe laid out his version of the events leading up to Kevin and Taylor's deaths.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
He also confirmed Michelle's hunch that the cold-blooded plan was all hatched by Shelby Harris.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
Jensen was brought into the station where he was given the opportunity to lay it all out and hopefully tell the truth.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
As you can hear, he first tried to protect his friend, Terrence Bledsoe, claiming that it was just him, Joe Jensen, and Taylor in the car. But Michelle quickly poked a hole in that lie.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
According to Jensen, the front door was out of sight. But shortly after Taylor entered the James' home, he heard the unmistakable sound of gunshots.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
A month after the murder of Kevin James, the four people who planned and carried out his execution were meeting in a remote area to discuss their next moves. Little did one of them, George Taylor, know that those moves did not include him.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
Apparently on the day of Kevin's murder, Harris had forced George to get rid of his shoes in case he had left footprints or trace evidence at the scene of the crime.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
The victim had been shot once in the back of the head. A tattoo on his back helped identify the dead man as Kevin's suspected killer, George Taylor.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
Both men painted Harris as the mastermind and a ruthless killer, even if she never pulled the trigger. But there was still one major question, and that was how much Kevin's wife, Lisa, may have known about Harris's plan to eliminate the man she saw as her romantic rival.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
Lisa admitted renting the motel room under an expired license and to buying ammunition on the day of her husband's murder, although she claimed the bullets were for a planned day of target practice with her husband, Kevin.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
previously on Anatomy of Murder.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
Lisa had vehemently denied any romantic relationship with Shelby Harris, but the explicit note in her purse seemed to prove otherwise.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
And so she agrees to wear a wire. Lisa James called Harris on a recorded line. But even her closest friend could tell she was someone not to be trusted.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
Shelby Harris, Lisa James, and Joe Jensen were all charged with multiple counts of first-degree murder and conspiracy. They were tried together but heard by three separate juries during one simultaneous trial. And I can tell you, having done one of those myself, they are a challenge for any prosecutor. It's all about the organization.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
But on December 18th, 1999, a jury's verdict would decide a much different future for both of them.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
In Michelle's opinion, the two murders of Kevin James and George Taylor were clearly connected. A hunch supported by an autopsy that revealed that both men were killed by .40 caliber ammunition, possibly even fired by the same gun. You know, so Scott, here are the theories. It just, there's so many different ways that you could potentially link these up.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
But like in so many cases of spousal homicide, we can't help but ask why Lisa James thought murder was the only option.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
I was thinking about what I wanted to say about this case, and the thing that keeps coming back to me is this. Kevin James' 12-year-old son heard the gunshot that took his father's life and then had to push past his mom to get to the window and then saw the person who shot his dad run away from their house and get into a car.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
That young boy, now a man, is not only a hero witness because he put the solving this case in motion, but he is also another victim beyond losing his father, victimized differently now because of his mother and Shelby's brutal, awful plan. I keep thinking about that 12-year-old and his younger brother.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
Of course, I think about Kevin James first, a likable man who worked to provide for his family and loved them all, wife and children alike. But his wife strayed from their marriage, and we all know that extramarital relationships sometimes happen. And that was bad enough. Yet rather than walk away from the marriage, she decided to take her husband's life, and her son's father from them forever.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
All those things criminal, cruel, and unforgivable, at least to me. I hope Kevin's boys are well and have each other to hold on to through these years as they have hopefully tried to somewhat heal from this life-altering trauma.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
And again, right, the caliber of the weapon is not dispositive, but it would be quite a coincidence that two men that knew each other, one being looked at as potentially responsible for the murder of the other, they're both killed by gunfire by the same caliber.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
But also, you know, if George had nothing to do with it at all, it could be that the actual killer wanted to make it look that way, like they were trying to be silenced. So... There's so many different ways to see it, but I definitely do agree with Michelle's early assessment that they definitely do seem in one way or another to be connected.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
But whichever way this may potentially pan out, there were still a stunning number of possibilities. And with very little forensic evidence in either murder, the best place to start was in the interview room, questioning the people in George Taylor's immediate orbit.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
According to Taylor's own mother, her son was no saint, but she was convinced that it was Shelby and these other two men who were the real trouble in the group. And if anyone had conspired to kill her son or anyone else, it was them.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
And detectives in Moreno Valley were now facing not one unsolved murder, but two. When first questioned by police, Terrence Bledsoe confirmed that they were all indeed together in a motel room on the night Kevin was killed. But he denied ever leaving or knowing anything about the homicide.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
Listed in the register on the night of Kevin James' murder was the name Lisa Nash, a name that Michelle thought sounded awfully familiar.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
Suddenly, all of Michelle's suspicions about Lisa's behavior in the immediate aftermath of Kevin's murder were becoming much more relevant and Lisa's friendship with Shelby much more concerning.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
Michelle's gut instinct as a veteran detective told her something was definitely amiss.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
And so Lisa James was led to a separate interview room, and the murder victim's widow sat for the first of several interviews, centering not on what she heard or saw on the night of the murder, but what she might have known about it beforehand.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
I'm Anastasia Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
And George Taylor had mentioned to police that he sometimes bought marijuana from Kevin James. So this theory from Lisa was not completely out of the realm of possibility. But what was much more telling to Michelle was Lisa's sudden change of heart from being a grieving widow to informing on her husband's potential criminal activity.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
As you can hear in her recorded interview, Lisa adamantly denied being in a relationship with Shelby Harris.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
And it's almost like you can hear it by her questions. Like Michelle is fishing. Like she's trying to set the hook and just see if Lisa will bite. Because again, if her hunch is correct, she just might get that answer based on the way that she frames her question. And Lisa thinks, oh, maybe she knows. And I think that's exactly what Michelle is trying to do.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
But, you know, even while Lisa continues to deny, deny, look at what Michelle is learning.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
Because either way, like a fair or not, they're supposedly close friends. But what Michelle is seeing is that Lisa is already starting to turn against Shelby. And so a little while later in the questioning, when she was asked again about what she knew about their murder now of George Taylor, Lisa stayed on the defensive.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
In January of 1998, Kevin James was asleep in his bed when he was shot three times at close range. His execution-style murder left detectives in Moreno Valley, California, searching for clues of who could have wanted him dead.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
She thought he was going to tell. In other words, Shelby feared that George Taylor was about to cooperate with police and tell the truth about their plot to murder Kevin James.
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
But would this version of the truth stand up to scrutiny? And was there even more to the story yet to unravel?
Anatomy of Murder
A Tangled Web - Part 2 (Kevin James & George Taylor)
Detective Michelle Amacone's theory? Shelby recruited her friend George Taylor to commit the crime and then had him executed when she feared he would spill the beans of what they'd done to police. Here's Michelle and Lisa James talking about that very real and frightening possibility.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
As his obsession with this one particular model grew, he began lavishing her with gifts, things like expensive lingerie.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
In December of 2018, Grant's family finally staged an intervention, insisting that he seek treatment for his internet and pornography addiction.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
Today's story brings us back to Florida, to a homicide case that unfolded very quickly in January of 2019, but left a community stunned by its disturbing details and bizarre motives.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
At home, Chattamata installed an internet monitoring system to keep Grant off the computer. But even then, his compulsion to be online proved to be too strong, and soon Grant was sneaking away to use public Wi-Fi to reconnect with his overseas paramour.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
And just sidestepping for a moment because we're really talking about internet addiction. According to the American Journal of Psychiatry, internet addiction is apparently a common disorder that soon merits inclusion in the textbooks. It's a diagnosis in the compulsive-impulsive spectrum disorder. And here's what it always will include.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
There's basically three subtypes, excessive gaming, sexual preoccupations, and email text messaging. And they all share the following four components. And I thought this was really interesting. One, excessive use often associated with the loss of sense or time or neglect of basic drives. Two, withdrawal, including feelings of anger, tension, or depression when the computer is inaccessible.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
Three, tolerance, including the need for better computer equipment, more software, more hours of use. And lastly, negative repercussions, including arguments, lying, poor achievement, social isolation, and fatigue. And Scott, that certainly seems to check off the boxes of what we're hearing about here.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
And as we know, with many types of addictions, one of the unfortunate things that often come with it when you need that money is that you use all the money you have and you need more. And so there are other things similar. We hear this with narcotics addiction all the time, that that also comes with other things like stealing, breaks with reality. And then family members don't know what to do.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
And here we know that the family did not involve the police. And that just comes down to most often a parent's love.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
And that was around this time that Grant's brother Cody had expressed to his girlfriend that his youngest brother's increasingly erratic behavior was starting to get frightening. And he even feared for his family's safety.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
An angry and increasingly unstable young man in a house full of guns. It was a dangerous combination and it might have proved deadly. According to Cody Amato's girlfriend, on January 24th, his father had finally issued an ultimatum to his troubled youngest son. Grant had to move out. The family would no longer tolerate his obsessive and criminal behavior.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
Now, the troubling backstory on Grant's relationship with his family was still in the process of being fully uncovered in the hours after the discovery of the murders. But just his absence from the scene made it imperative for law enforcement to locate him.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
The fact that he was at a hotel by the airport was already a clue that Grant was demonstrating the behavior of someone on the run. So police approached carefully, more than aware that the 29-year-old was likely desperate and probably armed.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
The answer to that is no. In fact, like many, he admitted that when he first became a lawyer, he was afraid of public speaking and actually terrified to be in court. But it was a fear he knew he eventually had to conquer.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
But I will say, and of course, it's never one size fits all, he also doesn't behave like someone who would have just learned that both his parents and his older brother had just been murdered, a fact that was not lost on investigators in the room.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
Grant tried to establish an alibi for the day of the murder, but both the information he was providing and the way he provided it, they just weren't that convincing.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
Considering Cody had never shown signs of depression or self-harm behavior, it was at least on its face a pretty unconvincing and even outrageous suggestion.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
But Grant's suggestion did support the theory that staging a murder-suicide was indeed part of the killer's plan to get away with the homicide.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
Horrific pictures of his own father in a pool of blood on the kitchen floor, his brother curled up in the room off the garage, and his mother, the woman who tried so hard to save him from his own demons, face down on her desk. Photos that would be disturbing to anyone, let alone a family member.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
But in the interview room, they were met with a blank stare and then a half-hearted attempt at genuine emotion.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
And of course, investigators cannot use a person's silence against them. But if a person is confronted with something that awful and shocking, sometimes a glaring silence, at least out of the courtroom, can start to feel like a tacit admission of guilt.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
But while the circumstantial evidence against him was substantial, including his history of conflict with his parents, his financial motive, and his lack of a strong alibi, there still wasn't any direct evidence to either tie him to the crime scene or disprove his alibi.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
And this is another one of those examples where sometimes the pace of criminal justice can seem frustratingly slow. But as a prosecutor, I can tell you it is crucial to first gather enough evidence and also to manage the ticking clock between arrest and trial.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
It's also where Chad and Margaret Amato had raised three sons. two of whom, Cody and Grant, were still living with them in their large, well-appointed home in horse country. The father, he was a pharmacist.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
According to the arrest affidavit, Grant Amato's response was that his family had been blaming him for ruining their lives, stealing and not following the rules of their home. So he might as well, quote, be blamed for this too.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
So essentially, the prosecution was still collecting evidence in the immediate lead up to the actual trial. Not uncommon at all. But here it was also trying to gather the pieces of evidence that might prove pivotal in that trial. So talk about a ticking clock.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
There was even disturbing evidence that hours after he had returned home, Chad Amato's fingerprint had been used to access his bank account. The implications? That his son Grant had pressed his dead father's finger to his phone to access his money. It's almost too horrible to imagine.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
But it wasn't all digital forensics that was pointing to Grant Amato's guilt. Because just before the start of the trial, investigators finally made the most important discovery of all, the murder weapon.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
Their sons, Cody and Grant, who had both pursued nursing degrees at the University of Central Florida, also aspired to careers in the healthcare industry.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
The gun that had disappeared belonged to a friend of Grant's, and its ammunition was a match to the projectiles found at the crime scene.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
So given both the physical and circumstantial evidence collected, what did the prosecution believe happened on January 24th, 2019 at the Amato home?
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
Just to stop for a moment here, the wonders of technology never cease to amaze me. Just think about this, Scott. Your watch or your phone can now accurately paint a picture of not only your day, but down to the path you walk and the number of steps you take.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
It's amazing and here so helpful for law enforcement and prosecutors as they tried to piece together what was happening on the day of these homicides.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
And the picture it paints is just so truly awful. After killing his father, Grant Amato then spent another several hours alone with the bodies of his murdered parents, attempting to access their banking information.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
Dominic pointed out to the jury that these were the actions not of a grieving son, but of a guilty man.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
During the sentencing phase, Grant Amato was spared the death penalty. Instead, he will spend the rest of his life in prison without the possibility of parole.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
But that morning, no one had heard from him. And both his girlfriend and his co-workers were getting increasingly concerned.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
But even in his confession, Amato showed a disturbing lack of remorse and a refusal to accept the full responsibility for his actions. He made it sound almost like he was a martyr.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
He even managed to record video messages from prison for the object of his infatuation.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
And so we should endeavor to stay vigilant against the false connections that lure us away from the people we love. and treasure the very real connections that keep us together.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
From what I know, Internet Addiction Disorder is not yet recognized as a mental disorder in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, or as we call it, the DSM, 5th edition. It's almost like the Bible on the subject of mental disorders. My guess is that that may soon change and it probably should be included.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
I think it's fair to say that almost anyone hearing about this case will be baffled by the lengths someone went to for an Internet fantasy. but it's the incredible criminal tragedy that really impacts me most. You have a young man who lost touch with reality and the people that actually loved him, his family. He lashed out at them rather than embracing their care.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
As a result, Chad, Margaret, and Cody Amato were murdered by Grant Amato, their son and brother. Margaret and Chad Amato tried to protect their son as they watched him slipping away into a screen. His brother Cody also tried to help him as he watched his brother stealing so much from him and their parents, money they had all worked very hard for.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
The healthcare community mourns the colleagues that they lost. Their family and friends will never be the same. Jason Amato, the oldest son, is now alone and I'm sure in some ways will never recover. And I hope all of us who have now heard their story will never forget it or them. Tune in next week for another new episode of Anatomy of Murder.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
Anatomy of Murder is an AudioChuck original produced and created by Weinberger Media and Fresetti Media. Ashley Flowers is executive producer. This episode was written and produced by Walker Lamond, researched by Kate Cooper, edited by Ali Sirwa, Megan Hayward, and Philjean Grande. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
Now, because this is a well-being check in response to a legitimate concern about Cody, there was a sense of urgency and the police had an obligation to make sure everything was okay.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
I'm Anastasia Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
The deputy soon moved into the kitchen. He found the body of Cody's father, 59-year-old Chad Amato, in his work clothes, and he was laying on the floor in a large pool of blood.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
Also discovered near Cody's body, a 9mm handgun, as well as several spent shell casings scattered amongst the three victims.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
Given the location of the gun found at the scene, one of the possibilities was a murder-suicide. Perhaps Cody Amato had shot and killed his parents and then retreated to the garage and taken his own life.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
We live in a world of instant messaging, group chats and an endless scroll of images that gives us a window into each other's private lives. So in many ways, we know more about each other than ever before. But even still, sometimes it seems that the more connected we all are, the farther apart we all feel.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
In other words, the gun found at the scene, it was not the murder weapon. It appeared that the whole scene had been elaborately staged.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
The fact was that Chad and Margaret were devoted parents and well-liked members of their community. Margaret was an avid horseback rider, while Chad was a lifelong caregiver and provider.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
In other words, these were not the kinds of people that were known to attract trouble or would have found themselves the targets of such a carefully staged execution.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
According to Jason, there had been escalating tension between Grant and the rest of the family that had recently reached a crisis when it was discovered that Grant had stolen a considerable amount of money from both his parents.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
An obsession that had siphoned off over $200,000 of his parents' money, landed him in rehab for internet and sex addiction, and had caused irreparable damage to his relationships with his family.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
29-year-old Grant Amato was the youngest of Chad and Margaret Amato's three sons. And for most of his life, he had tried to keep up with his brother Cody and his parents' high standards for success.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
But in 2018, things began to go off the rails when he was dismissed from his job following some very troubling accusations.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
And to me, it's also just somehow even worse when we're talking about doing something to people that are already patients because they're already more vulnerable than someone else. So of course you talk about drugging anyone, our reaction's going to be the same, but it just seems even more, I don't know, sinister, the idea of whatever his motivation.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
I think that your first question is very likely it, right? This doesn't seem like something that he's trying to ease someone's pain. But again, if you keep them asleep longer, then you have to do less work.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
The incident marked the beginning of a downward spiral. With no job, no prospects, and no social life to speak of, Grant Amato found comfort where many isolated young people do—
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
I'm sure there's plenty of parents out there that can relate to this. A kid who seems just glued to their screen at all hours playing games with strangers. But with Grant, it was ultra extreme.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
And while the jury is still out on just how dire this crisis is, the fact remains that obsessive internet consumption can have very serious effects on people's behavior and their relationships.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
But what he did find was an escape, an anonymous fantasy world where he could be anyone he wanted to be and where he found all the things that he felt he was lacking in the real world, respect, success, and eventually even companionship.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
And we're not here to judge what two consenting adults do in the privacy of their own homes, even their parents' homes. But here's the thing. Watching these live streams, they cost money.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
Fingerprints matching Varell's were found on spray paint cans in the garage, the same spray paint used to paint over the windows to the garage.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
His prints were even found on an empty bottle of Prestone de-icing liquid, a piece of evidence that proved to be critical in proving that Farrell had a hand in at least attempting to clean up the crime scene and cover up the murders.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
And that's because investigators found a stain of Christine's blood on the back porch of the house, a stain likely from a puddle that had frozen and the killer had tried to de-ice with Prestone in order to clean it.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
And so police and prosecutors were facing a question. Could they use proof of a cover-up as proof that Varel also killed the two victims?
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
Tim Varel was arrested on February 6, 2017, and remained incarcerated as prosecutors prepared for his trial on two charges of first-degree murder.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
They gathered witnesses that knew Varel's relationship with both Christine and his role in Christine and Dean's narcotic business. And one of those witnesses was prepared to testify that Varel had been using narcotics heavily in the days leading up to the murder. Here is an excerpt from the lead prosecutor's opening statement to the jury.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
And so much of Jenna's childhood was spent with her grandparents and on the water off the coast of New Hampshire.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
One thing that was clear was that Verrill did not know Jenna Pellegrini, and it was her presence in the house that may have sparked a paranoia about who exactly she was.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
And so clearly, Verrill was worried about Jenna's presence, presumably in relation to protecting his role in the narcotics business. But also perhaps protecting Dean, the person who was known to run that business, the same guy who Christine was perhaps about to leave. What was not known was whether Dean knew Verrill's concerns.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
Here again is more of the prosecutor's opening statement at trial, in which he walked the jury through the known facts of the case, clearly implicating the defendant, Tim Burrell, in the double homicide.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
The prosecution contended that Farrell then disabled the security system and then locked the front door.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
His description of Jenna's murder is equally graphic, but perhaps even more disturbing when you consider that she may well have been asleep in bed.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
Beryl maintained his innocence throughout, and his lawyers were prepared to present an alternative perpetrator defense, a theory the prosecution was ready to confront head-on.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
And the potential evidence that could prove it would turn the trial upside down.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
And like a lot of teenagers, Jenna was also fiercely independent.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
You know, Scott, I don't think it is necessarily the deciding factor that he brings the police into this because how many times have you heard the scenarios that someone actually happily brings the police in, is cooperative and talkative throughout, really just as another way to try to move attention away from themselves?
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
Well, I don't think the fact, as I said before, that he brought them in really is dispositive of him not being involved. Again, like as prosecutors, though, we can speculate and think and think maybe, maybe not, but you have to prosecute based on evidence and evidence alone. But also remember too, there's no statute of limitations when it comes to murder.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
So if they find evidence that implicates him or anyone else later at any time, well, then they can always charge them too. But for now, I absolutely agree that the evidence fit together with the other theories and the evidence. only points right now to Tim Burrell. And so that's what they went into court with.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
The case for Verrill's guilt was a strong one, and the trial seemed to be moving towards a swift conviction. However, on October 23, 2019, the defense brought to the court's attention certain irregularities regarding evidence discovery.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
Over the next several days, the prosecution and defense would learn that more than 500 pages of written documents and 39 media discs had not been shared with the defense in discovery.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
And I quote, These were just a few of the texts that Dean sent to his then-girlfriend indicating a volatile falling out.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
During the second trial of Tim Varel, the prosecution's star witness proved to be his close friend, who testified in detail about Varel's strange behavior on the night of the murder.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
But for as convincing as this testimony was from the friend of both Dean and Tim Burrell, it was also problematic. And as someone who's handled multiple cases with witnesses sometimes similar to the one here, I can say that here's why. Because this witness, like several in this story, was involved in the narcotics trade. Now, does that make what he was saying a lie? Absolutely not.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
People can tell the truth or lie no matter who they are or what they do. but it will certainly cause the jury to be extra critical and cautious, as they should be. But there's also another layer that needed to be considered as well. He had been offered a reduced sentence for past crimes in exchange for his testimony.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
So depending on who you believed, Tim Varel was either a narcotics user so impacted by the drugs that he became completely paranoid, who brutally killed two women because he feared one was a police informant.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
But like Jenna's father Michael said before, all prosecutors could do was focus on the facts based on the physical evidence that pointed to one truth. That Tim Burrell was at the crime scene before, during, and after these murders. He tried to cover it up because of the likely conclusion. because he was the one responsible.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
At some point, Jenna began to experiment with various narcotics. And that experimentation eventually led to regular use, an all too common problem that her own dad admits he can relate to.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
In other words, Varel tried to flee. But as they say, the arm of the law is long. But as a prosecutor, I can say that we would also say that that is evidence of consciousness of guilt. If he hadn't committed the crime, and if he didn't know that what he had done was wrong, he wouldn't have tried to run.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
But on April 9th, 2024, the jury surprised the courtroom when it returned a verdict of not guilty on first-degree murder. Instead, they found Verrill guilty of the lesser charge of second-degree murder. essentially saying that the killing was not premeditated, or at least that it hadn't been proven beyond any reasonable doubt.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
I'm going to take the other side here for a moment because when I look at it from that other side, we don't know if he did that to the windows maybe after he had already committed those crimes, likely in a drug-fueled state. And again, it takes time to try and clean. It takes time to try and move bodies.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
So yes, at the same time we're talking about the security system, could it have been at the moment he chose to commit the crimes? Boom, let me disable these cameras. We just don't know. So while yes, of course, I think it's a stretch to come to those conclusions, this is all about proof beyond any reasonable doubt.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
So if you can put a reasonable possibility on those things, definitely disappointing to the prosecutor or family member, but I also understand it from the standpoint of the jury.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
In the end, the judge took those statements to heart. On May 17, 2024, the judge sentenced Farrell to the maximum sentence of 90 years to life for the second-degree murders of Christine and Jenna.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
Dean Smirank was sentenced to prison for drug trafficking in September of 2019. The Federal Bureau of Prisons reports that he was subsequently released in 2022.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
The proceeds were donated to local charities offering support to people fighting addiction.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
This case was important to us to feature for a reason even beyond that there were two women, Jenna Pellegrini and Christine Sullivan, that were brutally murdered. And that reason is because it is the type of case that is often overlooked and not highlighted at all. Certain things like narcotics, use, abuse often make people look away.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
But as someone who's handled many murders over the years, I can tell you there are lots of cases, too many cases that fade into the shadows and that are as brutal as this. These two women deserve to be remembered and didn't deserve what happened to them. Being on the fringes of society due to an impairment or a life choice, whether self-created or not, does not mean that we should not care.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
Their killers assumed we wouldn't, but we are here to tell them that we do. Jenna Pellegrini, Christine Sullivan, this AOM community, we remember you. Tune in next week for another new episode of Anatomy of Murder. Anatomy of Murder is an AudioChuck original produced and created by Weinberger Media and Fresetti Media.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
This episode was written and produced by Walker Lamond, researched by Kate Cooper, edited by Ali Sirwa and Philjean Grande. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
Jenna's children went to live with her parents, and sadly, her narcotics use eventually led to bouts of joblessness and homelessness.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
This was the last week of January of 2017, and Jenna had been staying on the couches of a string of friends. She eventually made it to a home on Meadowbrook Road in Farmington, New Hampshire, a pretty rural area about a three-hour drive east of Concord.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
But she, like Jenna, was also struggling with narcotics use. The two women were together at the house on Meadowbrook Road on the night of January 27th.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
When he got to the house, he noticed a couple of things that didn't seem right. Christine's car was there, but there were no lights on in the house. And strangely, the windows of the garage looked like they had been painted opaque with green spray paint.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
I'm Anastasia Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
Fearing the worst, Dean called 911. A short time later, police arrived at the home, and as they began to inspect the property, they made a horrible discovery. Under the back porch of the house, police found the bodies of both women, wrapped in plastic tarps and hastily covered with household debris.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
Jenna, on the other hand, did not have defensive wounds, perhaps indicating that she was attacked in bed while she slept, her killer demonstrating a viciousness that left investigators stunned. She had been stabbed 43 times in the neck and chest, wounds that severed her jugular vein, punctured her lungs, and broke her ribs.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
Remember, Jenna's parents had no way to get in touch with her and didn't know where she was living. But with a child in crisis, whether she's an adult or not, you can imagine that any bad news like this will leave your mind racing.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
One of the characters that plays a pivotal role in today's story is one that appears far too often in homicide cases across the country, narcotics.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
It was up to Jenna's parents to break the devastating news to her young children.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
Detectives were also trying to establish the relationship between Jenna and the other murdered woman, Christine Sullivan, as well as with Christine's boyfriend, Dean Smoronk, who was both the owner of the house and the man that called 911.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
In fact, they had been arrested just a year before in South Carolina for their role in a drug trafficking operation that spanned the entire East Coast.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
But there was still a mystery to unravel here, not the least of which was how Jenna got caught in something so violent and so vicious.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
But there was one glaring problem. Autopsies of both women determined that they were likely killed in the early hours of January 28th. And Dean claimed he was still in Florida, not arriving back in New Hampshire until later that night.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
It also leaves a terrifying number of victims in its wake. Men, women, very often young, whose struggles with addiction can lead them to some very dark places with some very bad people.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
But Dean actually offered another way for backing his story, showing investigators the video surveillance system he had installed in his house.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
Even more intriguing was the fact that this man appeared to know about the video's security system. And just as the video's internal clock approached the hour of the murder, the system suddenly shut down.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
two women brutally murdered in a house in Farmington, New Hampshire. The most obvious suspect, one of the women's soon-to-be ex-boyfriend, who also happened to be a narcotics dealer.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
The man in the video was identified as 34-year-old Tim Varel, a close friend and associate of Dean Smorunk's.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
But as investigators gathered information about Verrill, one of the first things they learned was that he didn't really fit the profile of this kind of violence.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
Still, with Varel captured on the video visiting the crime scene just prior to the murder, he was certainly a top person of interest. And so investigators brought him into the Farmington police station for questioning.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
He denied tampering with the security system, and he denied having anything to do with the murders.
Anatomy of Murder
X2 (Jenna Pellegrini & Christine Sullivan)
So, Scott, if we think about what they are learning pretty quickly here about this other guy, Varel, I mean, just him being there at the crime scene so close to the murders, like, obviously, he is going to be the person that has to be focused on, at least initially, or at least one of them, I should say.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
And in fact, there were some of Yvonne's own friends that said the tension between her and Jack had finally come to a head.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
Safe to say if she wasn't a person of interest before, she certainly was now. But soon enough, Mary Jo is able to compose herself and an excuse for her strange behavior.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
In that answer, it directly contradicted what Yvonne's kids had told police. Remember, her daughters had overheard Mary Jo and their mom talking at the door.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
In 2020, Holly Wood-Webster was a new prosecutor suddenly thrust into a very old homicide investigation, the 1985 murder of Yvonne Menke in St. Croix Falls, Wisconsin.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
So this is a small town, and Jack Owen and Mary Jo Luntzman are both in the horse business and have known each other for years. It's not unthinkable that they would have interacted in the days before Yvonne's murder. But given the rumors about their ongoing relationship and the tension between Jack and Yvonne, it did raise suspicions that Mary Jo could be hiding something.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
Which is more than a little creepy because it kind of suggests that she was either watching them or somehow knew when Jack and Yvonne had plans to go out. And according to investigators, these mysterious phone calls to Yvonne's house were backed up by phone records.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
So let's just talk for a beat about alibis. In this case, Mary Jo did provide details of where she was during the time of the murder. She said she was at home doing chores. But from an investigator's perspective, a solid alibi is one that can be verified, either by a witness or even digital evidence like a cell phone ping or credit card activity.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
And in this case, Mary Jo provided none of that, just her word.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
And on top of that, Mary Jo also admitted to police that she owned a gun that matched the caliber of the bullets that killed Yvonne.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
Investigators asked Mary Jo's permission if they could collect the boots and have them analyzed.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
It's not great, but if I'm part of the defense, I'd quickly point out that Mary Jo is surely not the only person in the world that owns that particular brand of snow boots, and I'm sure the investigators in this case knew that too.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
Yvonne was a kind, quintessentially salt-of-the-earth Midwesterner, known for her warm personality and dedication to her children, even when that meant working long hours at multiple jobs just to keep food on the table.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
But as Holly pointed out, there was another way they could narrow that down. Because remember, those prints, they were really, really small.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
But as the investigation went on, Yvonne's family became more and more convinced that Mary Jo must have had something to do with this homicide. And all those calls and rumors that once seemed harmless, they now seemed more like warning signs of a coming disaster.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
Julie thought the call sounded like it came from a payphone, another bit of lost technology from the past. But unfortunately, that would make tracing the call in 1985 nearly impossible.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
And unfortunately, that singular focus on finding the murder weapon, it had a devastating impact on the investigation.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
And without the gun or a witness who could ID, not to mention DNA or other strong physical evidence, prosecutors in 1985 were just not convinced that they had enough to charge Mary Jo Lundsman with Yvonne's murder.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
Despite their persistence in urging law enforcement to keep working on their mom's case and their strong suspicions that they knew who killed her, Yvonne's children were forced to carry on with their lives knowing their mother's killer had gone unpunished.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
At least in their day-to-day, as best they could. But the loss of their mom and the unresolved questions surrounding her murder would have a deep and lasting impact on their family.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
She was up early for work. It was December 12, 1985, which, being winter in Wisconsin, was a typically frigid morning.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
For nearly 40 years, the 1985 unsolved murder of Yvonne Menke hung like a dark cloud over St. Croix Falls, Wisconsin, and Yvonne's family.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
Incredibly, Mary Jo Luntzman was still living in the area. So imagine Mary Jo Luntzman's surprise when investigators phoned her at home. Here's a portion of that call.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
And you never know, right? Shake the tree and see if anything new falls out. But it was clear that the now 80-year-old Mary Jo was not ready to change her tune.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
Yvonne headed out the door of her apartment and down the enclosed exterior stairwell up the building, which led directly to the parking lot on the ground floor.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
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Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
She would have plenty of time to contemplate her decisions and actions in the brutal murder of Yvonne Mankey. But immediately after the verdict, it was clear that one thing she did not have was remorse.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
Impact on Yvonne's family was immeasurable and certainly worth the wait. But a case like this also leaves a lasting impact on a prosecutor as well.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
Murder has many motives, never a good one. But often things we can put a name to, jealousy, greed, anger, revenge, this one seems to capture all those. To this day, the senselessness and cruelty of homicide are things I still struggle to understand. How can one person choose to end the life of another and just not care? Yvonne Menke was a mom raising her kids.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
a woman forging her way in the world and a friend to many. Her daughter was waiting inside their home to see what story her mom was about to tell. And within an instant, that story and every other interaction they should have had for many years to come was over. Justice for Yvonne meant that a prosecutor had to take a chance and try a very circumstantial case.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
That the many years that had gone by showed that was likely never going to get any better. And that's what the Polk County DA's office and Hollywood Webster chose to do. You weren't forgotten, Yvonne. And to the many people out there waiting for some accountability in a courtroom, let Yvonne's story be your motivation. And Yvonne... That means part of your legacy is giving hope.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
Tune in next week for another new episode of Anatomy of Murder. Anatomy of Murder is an AudioChuck original. Produced and created by Weinberger Media and Fresetti Media.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
This episode was written and produced by Walker Lamond. Researched by Kate Cooper. Edited by Ali Sirwa and Philjean Grande. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
I'm Anastasia Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
Julie struggled to make out a description of the person who appeared to be fleeing the scene. But there was no mistaking the overwhelming sense of menace and dread.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
Yvonne's injuries were so grave that she was actually lying in a pool of her own blood. She appeared to have suffered severe traumatic injuries to her head.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
How long is too long to wait for justice? Four months? Four years? Four decades? For victims' families, balancing the demand for accountability and the deeper need for healing can be a long and traumatic process.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
Investigators at the scene noted that Yvonne's purse, car keys, and car all remained untouched, suggesting the motive for the attack was not a robbery.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
It suggested that the shooter was not behind Yvonne, but lying in wait at the bottom of the stairs. In other words, this was no chance encounter. This was an ambush.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
Despite the cold weather, Yvonne's body temperature when police arrived confirmed her daughter's story that the attack had occurred within the hour, which meant the killer had a head start, but not a big one.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
And if you're wondering how you use molten sulfur to cast a mold from a boot print in the snow, you're not alone.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
Promising, but it was still not a ton to go on. And unfortunately, Yvonne's daughter was not able to offer many more details about the person she saw fleeing the scene.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
According to Yvonne's kids, Jack Owen had been the source of considerable drama and heartbreak for their mother over the years since their parents' divorce.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
What went on between them in the hours before that ambush was a mystery that just might hold the key to solving her murder.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
But this being a tight-knit community, there were some ideas about who. According to her children, Yvonne had been romantically involved with a local man named Jack Owen for years.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
When is it okay to stop searching for someone's killer? Our answer is never, but sadly, it's a question many survivors have to ask. And their answer is personal and unique to each family or individual.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
But to those in the know, Jack and Yvonne's relationship was not always the picture of stability. Jack had a reputation as a playboy, and his relationship with another woman was a frequent source of friction between them.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
So obviously, investigators were keen to interview Jack to both size up and secure his alibi for the morning of Yvonne's murder.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
When asked about rumors of a romantic affair with Mary Jo Luntzman, he was equally defensive.