Ari Shapiro

The Gaza Strip, ground zero of Israel's war with Hamas, is only about twice the size of Washington, D.C. It has about 25 miles of coastline along the Mediterranean Sea, with a population of about 2 million people. And last week... The U.S. will take over the Gaza Strip, and we will do a job with it, too.

Many people have reacted with horror, including Democratic Maryland Senator Chris Van Hollen last week on MSNBC.

NPR's Kat Lonsdorf joins us from Tel Aviv. She has been following all of this closely and hearing from Palestinians in Gaza. Hi, Kat.

Let's start with that moment in the Oval Office on Tuesday afternoon. You had Trump insisting that this will happen and King Abdullah of Jordan not exactly saying no, but not saying yes either. What have leaders of Egypt and Jordan been saying?

President Trump proposed relocating those people to other countries in the region, like Egypt and Jordan.

In the week since Trump stood next to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and threw out the idea, a shaky ceasefire in Gaza has become more shaky. What impact has Trump's proposal had?

So those are the broad political dynamics. All of this discussion centers on the people of Gaza who have already suffered war displacement and are now beginning to return to areas that may be all but destroyed. So what are you hearing from people on the ground there?

Have you heard from anyone there who does want to leave?

There is a fraught history behind Palestinians being relocated. How does that factor into what you're hearing from people?

Trump has said the Palestinians would not be allowed to return. UN officials and others say Trump's plan would amount to ethnic cleansing. And despite domestic and international concerns that the U.S. is empire building, Trump continues to double down on his plans for the U.S. to own Gaza. He brought it up in the Oval Office on Tuesday while sitting next to the King of Jordan.

Well, we know that Netanyahu thinks this is a good idea. What are other Israelis saying?

And Piers Katlonsdorf in Tel Aviv, thank you.

This episode was produced by Mia Venkat. It was edited by Courtney Dorning, James Heider, and Nadia Lansi. Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan. It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Ari Shapiro.

King Abdullah was asked directly what he thought of Trump's plan.

Consider this. Trump says the U.S. is going to take over Gaza, though he offers few specifics. What could the proposal mean for Palestinians and the broader Middle East? From NPR, I'm Ari Shapiro. It's Consider This from NPR. President Trump continues to insist that the U.S. will take over Gaza, that its residents will be moved to what Trump calls a beautiful location with new houses.

Here's a tale of two campaign promises. The first is from back in August. Then-candidate Donald Trump delivered it at a lectern flanked by tables full of groceries.

And tariffs on cars, steel and aluminum will stay in place. White House Press Secretary Caroline Leavitt suggested that the tariffs were a negotiating tactic all along.

He started listing price hikes.

So as of this writing, we are still looking at a set of tariffs that are much larger than the U.S. has seen in decades. Which means when it comes to those two promises, lower prices and higher tariffs, tariffs appear to be winning out. Consider this. A whole lot of stuff is about to get more expensive. We'll take a deep dive into the shopping cart. From NPR, I'm Ari Shapiro.

That occurred under the Biden administration.

It's Consider This from NPR. The economy likes predictability, and the tariffs this week have been wildly unpredictable. We know that they're going to impact the economy, even if we can't say exactly how. So we're going to do our best looking today at how prices will change for consumers. Tomorrow, we'll talk about the impact on businesses.

The budget lab at Yale University has been trying to calculate exactly how much more things are likely to cost. I took a virtual shopping trip with Martha Gimbel, the lab's executive director and co-founder. And as you'll hear, we talked before Trump's maybe temporary, maybe permanent about face today.

Okay, let's imagine we have parked our car, we have grabbed the shopping cart, and we are rolling into the big box store, whether that is Target or Walmart or Costco, take your pick. Let's head first to the clothing section. I want to buy a plain white t-shirt. How much more is that likely to cost?

And then Trump promised to fix it.

Wow. Why so much?

Sure, clearly.

We were recording this midday on the East Coast, and by the time night falls, the numbers could have changed. But clothing prices are going up, and I assume that's true of T-shirts, underwear, socks, all the basics.

Okay, let's roll our shopping cart over to the food section. And let's say I want to pick up a staple like sugar to do some baking. How does the cost of a pound of sugar change under these new tariffs?

Yeah?

Only 4%. That's great in the context of 45% or more for clothes. Why is that less than clothing?

But his promise to cut inflation and bring down prices has run headlong into another campaign pledge. You know, the one that's been completely dominating the news for the past week. He talked about that one in August, too.

And so is the same more or less going to be true of staples like rice or flour, that it just depends on where it's grown? And if there's a lot of it in the U.S., you're probably going to be okay. And if not, you might be paying more?

And I assume that's just because a lot of rice comes from Asian countries where tariffs are going to be high.

Okay, if I'm going to be cooking, I will need to clean up. Let's buy a pair of rubber dish gloves. How does that price change?

You know what? All these tariffs are giving me a headache. So let's roll over to the pharmacy. And what would it cost me to buy a bottle of a generic painkiller, the equivalent of Advil, aspirin, or Tylenol?

Okay, so we've checked out of the big box store, hopped back into the car, and I need to fill it up with gas on the way home. I've heard oil prices by the barrel have been going down. Am I at least going to save some money at the pump?

Is it also related to people anticipating there being less shipping because fewer goods are going from China to the United States, for example?

You're welcome. I wish I could say that was my own idea. Okay, now that we've done all of our shopping, let's talk more broadly about the effects that these price hikes are likely to have on household budgets as a whole. Your lab has calculated how this is likely to affect families in different income groups. Broadly speaking, what did you find?

Per family per year?

Wow, that's a lot of money.

When he announced the details of that plan last Wednesday, President Trump's tariffs were actually even higher than 20 percent on many countries. And that threw the global economy into turmoil. Stock markets around the world saw huge losses. In the U.S., many analysts raised their odds for a recession. But Trump plowed full steam ahead.

I guess that makes sense because if we think of a tariff as a tax, we know that sales taxes disproportionately influence people who make less money. If this makes things cost more, it's going to have a disproportionate impact on people who earn less.

Right. Well, if that's the impact on the individual, let's talk about the impact on nations. You have looked at how damaging the system of tariffs is likely to be to the gross domestic product of various countries around the world. Who are the biggest winners and losers?

The United States loses the most.

In terms of its gross domestic product. Well, how does China fare in all of this, given that it is the primary target above all others so far?

Martha Gimbel is the executive director and co-founder of the Budget Lab at Yale University. Thank you so much for taking this shopping trip with us.

This episode was produced by Erica Ryan and Connor Donovan with audio engineering by Simon Laszlo Janssen. It was edited by Christopher Intagliata. Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan. It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Ari Shapiro.

Tuesday night at the National Republican Congressional Committee dinner, he bragged about his tariffs and dismissed his critics.

The reciprocal tariffs, as Trump calls them, clicked into place at midnight. Be cool, he posted Wednesday morning on social media. Eventually, the chaos in the markets got so extreme that on Wednesday afternoon, Trump announced that he was resetting the most extreme tariffs to a much lower 10 percent across the board for 90 days, with the exception of China, which he bumped up to 125 percent.

President Trump's blizzard of executive orders has run into a snowplow of legal challenges. There are dozens of cases challenging the White House's actions, and judges all over the country have found that the White House acted illegally. Here's just a few examples. On immigration, several judges have blocked Trump's order ending birthright citizenship.

These comments suggest that Trump's circle may be willing to ignore court orders and defy judicial authority. That authority is enshrined in Article 3 of the U.S. Constitution. Quote, the judicial power shall extend to all cases in law and equity arising under this Constitution. A Rhode Island federal judge believes the Trump administration may already be ignoring the court.

On Monday, Judge John McConnell Jr. wrote that the administration defied a temporary restraining order by continuing to improperly freeze federal funds. The Trump administration argues that it acted in good faith to interpret the scope of the restraining order and it has appealed the ruling. Consider this. Is the U.S. facing a constitutional crisis?

And what power does the judicial branch have if the president simply refuses to comply? From NPR, I'm Ari Shapiro. What happens if the executive branch ignores the judicial branch? Is that a constitutional crisis? Many legal experts have been looking at this question right now, including University of Virginia law professor Amanda Frost. Welcome. Good to have you here. Thank you for having me.

On the federal workforce, a judge blocked the offer encouraging government employees to resign. On transgender rights, a judge blocked the Trump administration from moving trans women to federal prisons for men. There are also rulings that block the dismantling of USAID, the administration's freeze on federal grants, and more. The challenges and the rulings continue to pour in.

I know that law professors have debated for many years what a constitutional crisis actually technically is. How do you define it?

blatantly, flagrantly, and regularly. So you can maybe dabble in a little judicial defiance and it's not quite a crisis in your view?

So let's talk about those checks and balances. Congress's role is to enact laws. The executive branch carries out the laws. Technically speaking, what is the role of the judicial branch here?

Which some argued President Trump has done in the last few weeks.

we are beginning to see the courts try to restrain the executive, but we're also seeing the executive kind of flip the bird to the courts in some respect. Does that give you cause for concern?

Let's talk about what happens if the executive does turn its back on a legitimate court order. Civilians defy judicial orders all the time and they get punished for it with fines or with jail time. Have we ever seen a president defy a judicial order?

We heard that quote from J.D. Vance in 2021 before he was in the government where he referenced Andrew Jackson, who, as president, said, the chief justice has made his ruling, now let him enforce it. Do courts have an enforcement mechanism?

And Trump's team is punching back. After a judge blocked Elon Musk's Doge team from accessing personal data and other Treasury Department systems, Musk referred to the judge as, quote, And Vice President J.D. Vance made the controversial claim on Sunday that, quote, That echoes something he said in 2021 on the podcast Jack Murphy Live.

Well, how significant do you think it is that a judge in Rhode Island has now said the Trump administration defied a court order and continued to freeze some federal funds that it was ordered to release?

It seems a safe prediction that these debates will ultimately reach the Supreme Court in one form or another. There is a conservative supermajority right now, and the court has taken an expansive view of presidential power. Do you have a sense of how they might resolve this?

What about the overarching question that Elon Musk and J.D. Vance and Donald Trump have all spoken to that courts just can't check the president, that as Richard Nixon famously put it, and I'm paraphrasing, if the president does it, it's legal?

So to end where we started with the question of whether the U.S. is in a constitutional crisis, I've seen a variety of law professors argue that yes, the country is in one right now. What do you think?

That is University of Virginia Law Professor Amanda Frost. Thank you so much. You're welcome. This episode was produced by Mark Rivers and Elena Burnett and was edited by Courtney Dorning and Nadia Lancey. Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan. It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Ari Shapiro.

On Monday, in an interview with radio host Mark Levin, President Trump criticized judges for wanting to, quote, tell everybody how to run the country.

Vladimir Putin's tenure as president of Russia is now measured in decades, not just years. That means he can play the long game.

He's threatening tariffs on EU imports. And Trump has already put 25 percent tariffs on goods from Mexico and Canada. Those snapped into place early Tuesday. Trump argues these moves are about aligning foreign policy with American interests. But tension in relationships between the U.S. and allies also appears to be in Russia's interests. The Kremlin is ecstatic, says Khrushcheva.

That's Nina Khrushcheva, a professor of international affairs at the New School, also the great-granddaughter of Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev. And sure enough, Putin got exactly the sort of breakdown he was waiting for on Friday.

Consider this. Trump is upending the U.S.-led order that has dominated global politics for the better part of a century. What does that mean for Ukraine and for America? From NPR, I'm Ari Shapiro.

It's Consider This from NPR. After the Trump-Zelensky blow-up on Friday, European leaders held emergency talks in London to put together a roadmap to peace. Here's British Prime Minister Keir Starmer.

And on Tuesday, European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen announced a proposal called Rearm Europe.

The roughly $840 billion plan would quickly build up defense budgets in Europe.

Meanwhile, the U.S. seems to continue to align itself with Russia. To discuss where things go and what this means for U.S. alliances, I spoke with Richard Haass, hours before the U.S. paused military aid to Ukraine. He's the president emeritus of the Council on Foreign Relations and has served in diplomatic roles in Republican presidential administrations.

You know, President Trump's been saying for almost a decade since his first run for office that the rest of the world should take more responsibility for global security. Whatever you may think of his tactics, is he succeeding at least at getting American allies to do more?

At that Oval Office meeting between U.S. President Donald Trump, Vice President J.D. Vance and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky.

Do you think the Europeans can figure out how to end this war without U.S. leadership?

Oh, so you're saying Russia could make real advances in Ukraine if the US pulls back, and that would disincentivize any kind of peace talks?

What about the argument that Trump is effectively saying the quiet part out loud, that Ukraine cannot win this war even with U.S. support, so it's time to just bring the conflict to an end?

In three days.

I'd like to get your take on what the big picture set of U.S. alliances right now looks like. Because since the end of World War II, the globe has been more or less defined by a certain set of expectations. And those alliances seem very shaky right now. Trump last week said at his cabinet meeting that the European Union, quote, was formed in order to screw the United States.

To put it bluntly, is the post-war order done?

Well, what's the alternative? What comes after that?

So we began this conversation with discussion about foes, allies, adversaries, all terms that you used. Do those terms even apply anymore?

You watched the Trump campaign closely. You follow foreign affairs closely. Are you surprised by this one month into the new administration?

Zelensky was at the White House to sign over mineral rights to the U.S., a deal that Ukraine hoped would help it get security guarantees in a future peace deal with Russia. That blowup put the signing on hold. And on Monday, the White House said it was pausing U.S. military aid to Ukraine.

Richard Haass is President Emeritus of the Council on Foreign Relations, and he's author of the weekly Substack newsletter, Home and Away. Thank you so much.

This episode was produced by Matthew Cloutier, Noah Caldwell, and Connor Donovan, with audio engineering by Tiffany Veracastro. It was edited by Courtney Dorning, Sarah Handel, and Nadia Lansi. Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan. It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Ari Shapiro.

Speaking on background, a White House official said, quote, the president has been clear that he is focused on peace. We need our partners to be committed to that goal as well. All this looks like a major step back from a U.S. ally. And it's not the only one. At another White House meeting last week, Trump said this about the EU.

and there was no interruption.

That someone will identify using her first and middle initials DK. We're not using her full name because she fears retaliation for speaking out.

DK's job wasn't one of the thousands eliminated. But on Tuesday, she was one of 21 Doge staffers who quit. Most had left high-paying private sector jobs for public service. And in an unsigned joint letter of resignation from Doge, the engineers, data scientists, and product managers wrote, "...we will not use our skills as technologists to compromise core government systems."

jeopardize American sensitive data, or dismantle critical public services. They wrote, we will not lend our expertise to carry out or legitimize Doge's actions. On the platform X, Musk suggested that the staffers would have been fired had they not resigned.

And White House Press Secretary Caroline Leavitt responded to the mass resignation in a statement saying, quote, don't let the door kick you on the way out. Consider this. As Elon Musk and the Department of Government Efficiency work to remake the federal government, some of the people tasked with executing his vision have serious concerns about what the changes will do. From NPR, I'm Ari Shapiro.

It's Consider This from NPR. There was a time when federal government work was shorthand for a safe and predictable job. Not anymore. Today, federal government employees face drama, uncertainty, and conflict, coming largely from the Department of Government Efficiency, or DOGE. President Trump and Doge leader Elon Musk are trying to shrink the size and scope of the federal workforce.

And on Tuesday, 21 Doge employees resigned in protest, writing, We swore to serve the American people and uphold our oath to the Constitution across presidential administrations. However, it has become clear that we can no longer honor those commitments at the United States Doge Service. Well, our next guest is one of those people. DK told me everything changed the day after the inauguration.

Was it clear to you who was in charge?

So this resignation letter says people who arrived with Doge fired technical experts, mishandled sensitive data, and broke critical systems. Can you give us an example of an instance you saw that happen?

This work was at the U.S. Digital Service. It had been around for a decade and had hundreds of employees. On January 20th, everything changed when the newly inaugurated President Trump signed an order changing the U.S. Digital Service to the Department of Government Efficiency, or DOGE.

How would you respond to people who say, well, these are disaffected Democrats who are heading for the exits?

You could have chosen to stay and try to work within the system. What was the tipping point that made you decide leaving was the best choice?

Cross ethical and legal lines how?

DK was, until earlier this week, an employee at the Department of Government Efficiency. She, along with 20 of her colleagues, left Doge in protest. Thank you for speaking with us.

This episode was produced by Mia Venkat. It was edited by Natalie Winston, Ben Swayze, Courtney Dorning, and Nadia Lancey with audio engineering by Ted Meebane. Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan. It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Ari Shapiro.

Doge began its march through government agencies that very day. And one month later, its leader, Elon Musk, reflected on what they had accomplished so far.

He talked about his team's elimination of thousands of jobs in the name of saving taxpayers money.

How are Trump's tariffs likely to affect farmers?

Let's shift to the support that USDA, the U.S. Department of Agriculture, provides to farmers. The majority of USDA spending goes to nutrition assistance programs like SNAP benefits, also known as food stamps. If that shrinks, what does that mean for farmers in the U.S. ?

I think a lot of the debate will probably be around cutting benefits to people in need, but does that have trickle-down impacts or trickle-up impacts on the farmers who produce the foods that become part of that food assistance program?

The government has frozen or ended a lot of grants to farmers. Here's what a dairyman named Travis Forgs told Wisconsin Public Radio after the federal government paused two five-figure grants he had for a new industrial freezer and solar panels.

Absolutely not. Secretary Veneman— Ultimately, at least one of his grants went through. But big picture, what does the uncertainty around this mean for farmers?

When you were in office in the early 2000s as agriculture secretary, what did you hear most from farmers? What did they want the federal government to do more or less of?

We're standing at the edge of this beautiful river. I can see little fish swimming just under the surface. There's a small hand-carved wooden canoe floating under a tree. What does this body of water mean to you?

But a couple years ago, a drought got so bad that the canal had to reduce traffic by more than a third, which had a huge impact on global shipping. Consider this. The Panama Canal needs more water, and authorities have decided to get it by building a dam in a spot that would displace Digna, Olegario, and more than 2,000 other people. From NPR, I'm Ari Shapiro.

It's Consider This from NPR. In a wide grassy field in rural Panama, Digna Benite looks out at the spot where the Panama Canal Authority plans to build a new dam. We stand in the shade of a wild coffee tree, the fragrance like honeysuckle, wafting off branches full of white blossoms. Senora Digna, when you see this place and you think about what might happen here, what goes through your head?

This river is my whole life, says 60-year-old Digna Benite. She smiles wistfully under her straw hat. She grew up here on the Rio Indio in a small village in Panama called Limón de Chagres. She would play in the water while her father caught fish. The water is so clean and calm, she says, it rises and falls. For me, it's harmony. A long, narrow boat pulls up.

It would be simplistic to say this problem is all because of climate change. Climate scientists say the data point to a more complicated reality. At the shore of another body of water, tropical birds squabble in the trees at the edge of the jungle. Lake Gatun is a freshwater reservoir created by the construction of another dam more than a century ago during the creation of the Panama Canal.

Patton has no view on whether the much smaller Rio Indio Dam should be built or not. What he does have is research, perhaps more than any other tropical rainforest in the world.

As we walk down a modern metal dock, a startled iguana takes a swan dive. It just jumped off the dock into the water and climbed up on a rock. I can see it down there now. Patton says a couple years ago that iguana might have landed on dry dirt.

And for you as a researcher, is that like, this feels dire and frightening? Or is it like, what an exciting thing to research?

The drought was caused by El Nino, and scientists have not found a clear connection between El Nino and a warming planet. But Patton says there are some strange patterns emerging. The driest years in more than a century of record-keeping have been in just the last decade.

That helps explain why Panama is looking for ways to increase the supply of fresh water to the canal.

Jorge Luis Quijano was administrator of the canal from 2012 to 2019.

What is your message to the people in the communities who would be displaced by the construction of this dam?

Back in the village of Limón de Chagres, Alejandrina Muñoz washes dishes as she prepares a breakfast of eggs, yuca, and coffee sweetened with sugar cane. Everything she cooks comes from her land or from the river. She says fresh water from a nearby mountain spring flows right into her home and pours out of the tap. If the dam is built, what will this place be?

The canal authority told us they haven't yet decided where displaced people would be resettled. To Muñoz, this is the opposite of a marginal lifestyle. She experiences abundance more than hardship. Relatives who live in the city sometimes drive here to take extra food off her hands. There's a hand-painted sign in front of her house.

As we walk through the village, most of the houses have similar signs. No a los reservorio, no to the reservoir, they say. Dozens of community members have gathered in a shaded outdoor meeting space next to the church to tell us how they feel. I ask the group whether anyone feels tempted by the life of luxury that the government promises. No, we won't accept it, they say.

If anyone here supports the government proposal, we couldn't find them. After several people express their individual views, the group stands together and joins in a chant. Our river is not for sale. We will defend it, they shout.

This is almost to a word the same chant that urban Panamanians yelled as they shut down wide avenues of Panama City last week, protesting President Trump's effort to take the Panama Canal. The villagers say this is a smaller version of the same argument. To them, it's about sovereignty and respect.

Digna Benite and a younger man named Oligario Cedeno help us climb in, and we pull away from the shore. The boat pulls over to the edge of the Rio Indio and we climb up some steep stairs that are basically carved into the mud bank. Oligario, what are you showing us? Here I'm showing you where the dam would be, he says. The Rio Indio Dam.

This episode was produced by Karen Zamora, Rolando Arrieta, Andrea Salcedo, Alejandra Marquez-Hance, and Tomas Ayuso. It was edited by Courtney Dorning and Nadia Lancey with help from Alejandra Barunda and Nila Banerjee. Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan. And a thank you to our Consider This Plus listeners who support the show. If that's not you, it could be.

Supporters also hear every episode without sponsor messages. Learn more at the link in our episode notes. It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Ari Shapiro.

It doesn't exist yet, but authorities intend to start building it in just a couple years. Panama has been looking for solutions to a long-term problem. Every time a ship passes through the Panama Canal, more than 50 million gallons of fresh water from Lake Gatun pour out into the ocean. Nobody ever thought Panama could run out of water. It is one of the rainiest countries in the world.

One way to tell the story of a trade war is through a curved piece of silicone called the frywall.

And there are a lot of Yair Reiners out there. Business owners riding the roller coaster as Trump's tariffs have been rolled out, ratcheted up, and partially walked back. We're going to have to scale back a lot of innovation.

That is the inventor of the frywall, Yair Reiner, on Shark Tank back in 2018. Reiner priced out what it would cost for him to produce his invention in the U.S. and figured to turn a profit, he'd have to sell a made-in-the-USA frywall for about 80 bucks.

Consider this. Trump's tariff plans affect nearly every company in America. We'll hear from a few business owners about what it means for them. From NPR, I'm Ari Shapiro.

It's Consider This from NPR. Lisa Winton runs exactly the type of business that the Trump administration says its tariffs are supposed to help.

Winton Machine Company makes metal parts that go into everything from refrigerators to lawn chairs. And most of the company's supply chain is in the U.S. But some of Lisa Winton's distributors get their parts from China, and they've started passing along the cost of tariffs to her.

Oh, so you might say, I've got $500 to spend on this or $5,000 or whatever. And then when the bill comes in, you see tacked onto it is a tariff fee that could put this way outside of your budget. You just don't know. Right.

Have you heard from anyone who has said, you know what, I was going to buy from China, but given the situation with the tariffs, I think I would rather buy from Winton Machine instead. Like, is this going to help you in that respect?

I hear a lot of caution in your voice, but I can't quite tell whether you're cautiously optimistic or cautiously pessimistic right now.

Some businesses have to worry about tariffs on one country. Ethan Frisch has to worry about tariffs on 30 different countries.

Even the best splatter guard in the world is not going to sell for $80.

He's co-founder and co-CEO of a spice company called Burlap and Barrel. They've spent years developing relationships with small farmers. Yesterday, Trump paused global tariffs at 10% for 90 days on every country but China. But 10% is still a price hike, and nobody knows what'll happen three months from now.

Burlap and Barrel has decided that even with these tariffs, they won't charge customers more or pay farmers less.

And these tariffs have made Ethan Frisch face another big change that's hard to put a number on.

So he makes it in China, which allows him to sell it for about $25. And he says that money gets spread around to many parts of the U.S. economy.

Do you think this changes what America represents to them now? A hundred percent.

While growing exotic spices in the U.S. might be impossible, but shrimp swim in American waters.

So is his dad, and the trend lines have been clear for decades.

His wild caught shrimp just can't compete on price with the farm raised shrimp from countries like India and Vietnam. So last week, when Trump first announced tariffs of 26 percent on India, 46 percent on Vietnam and more, Reeves was overjoyed.

And yesterday, when he said for 90 days, tariffs on every country but China would be frozen at 10%, that's a lot lower than what you were expecting just last week.

You're 54, so it's safe to say you've got more working years behind you than you have ahead of you. What is your hope for where the industry will be by the time you retire? Wow.

like every American business owner right now. In choppy waters, he's just trying to figure out how to stay afloat. This episode was produced by Mallory Yu and Connor Donovan. It was edited by Courtney Dorning. Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan. It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Ari Shapiro.

But now President Trump has put a 145 percent tariff on goods from China. At least that's the number as we record this Thursday afternoon. It's been a moving target.

And so if that's going to be the case for the foreseeable future, for the next four years, where does that leave you?

By almost any measure, a president openly defying a court order would represent a constitutional crisis, a tectonic event in American history. And yet when President Trump was asked on Sunday whether he had defied a federal judge's order, he said he wasn't sure.

Customs and Border Patrol officers said they didn't learn of the judge's order until after the doctor was sent back. Members of the administration have attacked federal judges for blocking Trump's actions. They've even suggested courts don't always have the authority to overrule the executive branch. Levitt was asked about that directly on Monday, and her answer was less direct.

Consider this. Trump hasn't yet openly and explicitly defied the courts. Can he undermine them just by flirting with defiance? From NPR, I'm Ari Shapiro. It's Consider This from NPR. Last month, I asked University of Virginia law professor Amanda Frost whether Trump's earlier battles with the judicial system had created a constitutional crisis. And she told me, not yet.

The order in question came from a federal judge in Washington, D.C. on Saturday. He told the administration not to deport Venezuelans to El Salvador. Trump had just invoked the Alien Enemies Act to remove people he said were members of a gang. And the judge ordered the government to turn around any planes already in the air.

Well, in light of everything that just happened, is the system still holding? Amanda Frost is with us again. It's good to have you back.

We just heard what your benchmark was last month after the events of this weekend. Where would you say we are?

I want to dig into that behaving disingenuously, because not to make light of a serious situation, but I think about like two kids in the backseat of a car and one kid says, I am not putting my hand over the line that you told me not to cross. And if any reasonable observer would say, actually, you are, does it matter that the annoying brother is saying, no, I'm not?

I keep thinking about that oopsie too late post on X, which suggests that perhaps deliberately the administration is operating in a way that is hard for courts to keep up with. And there are other examples. Last week, there was a hearing before a federal judge in Maryland about layoffs of government workers.

And a government lawyer said he didn't know whether anyone in government could say how many probationary workers had been fired. In this Venezuelan case, Trump invoked the Alien Enemies Act without providing the courts much time at all to stop these planes of migrants that were heading for El Salvador. How do behaviors, how do actions like that impact the judicial branch's ability to do its job?

And so if that's the case, do you think it's just a matter of time until all this gets sorted out and everyone is back in their proper lane?

At a press briefing Monday, White House Press Secretary Caroline Leavitt offered slightly more clarity on the administration's actions.

If I could summarize your view as the clock ticks ever closer to midnight, but we aren't quite there yet, do you have a sense of how widespread that view is? Like, do your colleagues say you're being naively optimistic or Pollyanna-ish, or are your views pretty mainstream at this point?

Does the phrase constitutional crisis actually matter? I mean, if every constitutional law professor in the country were to say, yes, we are in a constitutional crisis right now, would that actually change anything?

Amanda Frost is a professor of law at the University of Virginia Law School. Thank you for talking with us once again. Thank you. This episode was produced by Connor Donovan. It was edited by Courtney Dorning and Nadia Lancey. Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan. It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Ari Shapiro.

Here's what's not in dispute. More than 250 Venezuelans, some of whom the Trump administration says are members of a criminal gang, were ultimately taken to El Salvador on Saturday. El Salvador is holding them in the country's terrorism confinement center. The Salvadoran president posted a headline about the judicial order on X with the caption, Oopsie, too late, and a laugh-crying emoji.

Secretary of State Marco Rubio retweeted it. That whole episode came after a Brown University physician in the United States on a special work visa from Lebanon was sent back, even though a federal judge issued an order that she appear at an in-person hearing on Monday. In a court filing today, lawyers for the government said U.S.

Elon Musk's Department of Government Efficiency is quickly expanding its reach through the federal government. It recently accessed systems at the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services. Musk and his team are now looking at key payment and contracting systems for Medicare and Medicaid. That was first reported by the Wall Street Journal.

So Kathleen, when you saw Elon Musk post on X that Medicare and Medicaid were where the big money, in his words, fraud is happening, did that ring true to you? Was that a big concern of yours when you ran HHS?

On X, Musk said he believes, quote, big money fraud is happening. In this episode, we'll get to the impact of Doge operating at CMS. But first, a quick reminder of what these programs actually do. Medicare insures older people. Medicaid offers insurance to low-income people and those with disabilities. Consider this.

Mark, how did you react to seeing that post from Elon Musk?

Do you fear that this – mission to eliminate waste and fraud could be a pretext for making broader sweeping changes to Medicare and Medicaid that are not actually motivated by waste and fraud and don't actually address waste and fraud?

So just so I understand, in other parts of the government, from the Treasury Department to the Justice Department, we have seen career officials and nonpartisan civil servants either fired and replaced or encouraged to leave. You're saying the opposite appears to be true at the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services?

Do you give them the benefit of the doubt? Do you trust them to take a nuanced, data-driven approach?

So bottom line, if people who depend on these programs want to know, is my coverage safe? Can I continue to count on the services that I have counted on in the past? We don't know where this is going to go. What should people be watching?

These two health insurance programs serve tens of millions of people, and they consume a huge part of federal and state budgets. So how could Doge impact these services? From NPR, I'm Ari Shapiro. It's Consider This from NPR. Medicare provides health care to 66 million people who are 65 and older. Medicaid serves 80 million low-income people and disabled Americans.

That is former Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius, a Democrat, and former Medicare and Medicaid Services Administrator Mark McClellan, a Republican. Thank you both for joining us today.

Thanks, Ari. This episode was produced by Mia Venkat and Elena Burnett. It was edited by Courtney Dorning and Nadia Lancey. Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan. It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Ari Shapiro.

To understand how Elon Musk's Department of Government efficiency might impact those services, we've invited two former senior government officials to join us. Kathleen Sebelius was Health and Human Services Secretary under President Obama. And Mark McClellan was Medicare and Medicaid Services Administrator under President George W. Bush. Good to have you both here. Great to be with you, Ari.

Good to be with you. How big a part of the overall U.S. health care system are these programs?

Elon Musk is not shy about declaring when he feels civilization is at risk. Last month, he said the fate of civilization depended on the outcome of an election for one seat on the Wisconsin Supreme Court.

Consider this. Pro-natalists think they have a friendly audience in the White House. How do they want to use it? From NPR, I'm Ari Shapiro.

Another existential risk, according to Musk, artificial intelligence.

It's Consider This from NPR. This moment feels ripe with opportunity for people who want Americans to have more kids. In Elon Musk and J.D. Vance, they see key White House figures interested in their cause. That was the backdrop for their gathering in Austin, Texas. It's called NatalCon. NPR's Lisa Hagen was there and has this story of what she found.

That's him on the Joe Rogan Experience podcast earlier this year. But Musk has said the biggest danger civilization faces by far is falling birth rates. In a recent Fox News interview, he said it keeps him up at night.

And Musk isn't the only one in the Trump administration focused on this issue.

In one of his earliest speeches as vice president, J.D. Vance addressed the March for Life, the annual anti-abortion rights rally in Washington.

That was NPR's Lisa Hagen. This episode was produced by Audrey Nguyen and Connor Donovan with audio engineering by Zoe Vangenhoven. It was edited by Brett Neely and Courtney Dorning. Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan. It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Ari Shapiro.

Musk and Vance are two of the most high-profile Americans pushing this point of view. But they're not alone. The birth rate decline and its potential economic consequences are a growing policy concern on the political right and the left. And on the right, some of the people worried about this have coalesced around an ideological movement called pro-natalism.

Some of its advocates recently gathered at a conference organized by a man named Kevin Dolan. And NPR was there.

In 2020, as the coronavirus pandemic began to shut things down, a recent law school graduate started a new job all the way across the country in Alaska. She accepted a coveted post as law clerk for a federal judge.

A nearly year-long NPR investigation has found problems with the way the courts police sexual harassment and bullying and a pervasive culture of fear about blowing the whistle. From NPR, I'm Ari Shapiro. It's Consider This from NPR. The voice of the Alaska law clerk you heard before the break was not her real voice, although those are her words, verbatim.

We used a voice actor because she was too afraid to talk. I'll turn it over to NPR's justice correspondent, Carrie Johnson, to help you understand why. And a warning, this piece contains a description of sexual assault.

The clerk hoped this job would jumpstart her career. She didn't know anyone else there, only the judge.

He started testing her boundaries early on.

She says she thought it was part of her job to listen to the judge and help him with anything. He was going through a divorce and he began to text her constantly to the point where her phone felt like an electric leash.

This episode was produced by Monica Evstatieva and Elena Burnett. It was edited by Barry Hardiman, Krishnadev Kalamur, and Courtney Dorning. Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan. It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Ari Shapiro.

That pressure built. In the summer of 2022, things got worse.

She stayed in Alaska, but she got a new job as a federal prosecutor. And this, she hoped, would put an end to the ordeal. As it turned out, that was wrong. Consider this. People who work for the federal court system don't have the same kinds of job protections that most other Americans do.

When President Donald Trump started talking about taking back the Panama Canal right around Christmas, there was a lot of reaction from people in Panama. Diplomatic but firm statements from the president, chants, an American flag burning in the streets, and also memes. We get angry.

You think your politicians are dumb.

Politicians all around the world share some of the same qualities, is what you're saying?

So what did you actually do with that material? Like, what was the meme that you created?

There's a common expression in the United States. which is you have to laugh because if you don't, you'll cry. And I wonder if that kind of describes the moment that you all are in right now. Yeah, yeah, totally.

Consider this. Trump's threat to take back the Panama Canal has the potential to reshuffle global politics. We'll meet the people and a 51-mile waterway in the middle of it all. From NPR, I'm Ari Shapiro.

That is Joel Diaz and Jessica Salado. They're members of the super popular Panamanian satire group called El Gainazo. That name refers to the black vultures that are all over Panama City. Now, the vulture is definitely not the national bird, but unlike the majestic harpy eagle that is on Panama's crest, the vultures are actually part of people's everyday lives. Here's Jessica.

It's Consider This from NPR. Right now, I am in a building in what used to be known as the Panama Canal Zone. It's just steps from the waterway. This spot has sat at the center of global trade for more than a century, connecting two oceans. The things Americans use every day pass through here, from gasoline to food.

And now, this spot is also at the center of President Trump's global expansionist agenda. Monday morning, Secretary of State Marco Rubio wrapped up a visit to Panama. And here's what his boss, President Trump, said on Sunday.

His claim that China operates the canal is false, and we'll dig into that more in a minute. When Rubio woke up here in Panama City yesterday morning, he went to services at a church where cameras were not allowed. But a different Sunday morning service live-streamed into Panamanians' homes all over the country.

Archbishop José Domingo Ulloa offered a homily that gives you a sense of how Panamanians are feeling right now. Sovereignty and the good name of Panama are not given away or negotiated, he said from the pulpit. They are defended with determination and love for the homeland. Trump's focus on the canal has brought out a nationalistic streak here in Panama.

The country's flag flutters along roadsides, on buildings and in front yards. Panamanians told me they don't even see this many flags on Independence Day. After Sunday morning services, Secretary Rubio met with Panama's President José Raúl Mulino. Here's how the president described that meeting.

I didn't feel any sense of controversy, just a climate of respect, he said. The State Department described things differently. According to a spokesperson's statement, Rubio told Molino that President Trump has made a preliminary determination that China has too much influence over the canal, which he says violates international treaties. The statement continued, quote,

Absent immediate changes, it would require the United States to take measures necessary to protect its rights. Rubio did not comment publicly on the meeting. President Molino told reporters he's happy to discuss immigration and drug trafficking, but the canal is not up for debate.

Panama's sovereignty is not in question. That is very important, he said. Panamanians will tell you that this fight is about identity, neocolonialism, and whether strong countries can push around weaker ones. And that may all be true, but narrowly speaking, this fight is specifically about a 51-mile waterway that is essential to global commerce. Forty percent of U.S.

maritime traffic passes through this canal. Panama fully took control of the passage in 1999. But when President Jimmy Carter signed those treaties back in 1977, he said the agreements showed the kind of leader he wanted the U.S. to be.

should lie at the heart of our dealings with the nations of the world. That line about fairness, not force, is so meaningful to Panama, it is actually on a metal plaque at the base of a statue in the heart of this city. In 2016, Panama expanded the canal, and now about 35 ships pass through daily. The US accounts for more than three quarters of the traffic.

This is one of the few places in the world where you actually want to be on a sinking ship. The visitor center at the Miraflores Locks may be the best place to see the canal in action. Picture three enormous steps. Millions of gallons of water flood into or out of the locks to float massive ships one step at a time from the Pacific Ocean to the Atlantic or vice versa.

Tourists from all over the world come here. Most of the Panamanians you meet at the Miraflores Locks are hosting folks from out of town, like Edwin Scott, who brought a friend from Mexico to show off his country's pride and joy. For a Panamanian, there's just no words, he says. The canal is the most important institution we have. He believes this fight isn't really about Panama.

He thinks his country just had the bad luck to get caught between two giants, the U.S. and China. I think Mr. Trump has this psychosis with Chinese people. There aren't Chinese people in the canal, he says. What do you think will happen? I don't know, because he's obsessed with the Chinese people, Scott says. So back to China's role here.

We met the team at El Gallinazo's offices in Panama City, and we came here to find out how Trump's threats are resonating with the people who could face the most severe consequences if he follows through. And we're here at a time when Panama is in the global spotlight. U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio just wrapped up a visit to deliver and perhaps clarify Trump's message about the canal.

There is no truth to Trump's claim that China operates the canal. But a company based in Hong Kong called C.K. Hutchison Holdings operates two of the five ports surrounding the canal. We asked the company for an interview, and they declined. We also requested interviews with the canal authority, Secretary Rubio, the president of Panama, and the mayor of Panama City.

The fact that none of them agreed may be a sign of just how delicate this moment is. So to clarify some of the facts here, I called Ambassador John Feeley. He's a career diplomat and former U.S. ambassador to Panama. Appointed late in the Obama administration, he stayed in the role for two years under Trump.

He still knows lots of people in Panama, and he says this controversy caught them all off guard.

He says he's been warning about China's influence in Latin America since at least 2017.

So without being inflammatory, what is the threat that China poses to the United States in Panama?

He says the threat from China is more subtle. It's about economic engagement, and it stretches far beyond the Panama Canal to places all over the region where China is investing and the U.S. is not. In protests all over the city, Panamanians made their feelings clear. In one, construction workers burned an American flag in the middle of a major street.

At another, a woman showed up at the finish line pushing a cart. She shaved a massive block of ice into snow cones topped with condensed milk and fruit syrups. The teachers' union organized this demonstration. The canal is ours, says a high school art teacher named Marlenis Nunez.

He'll have to kill us all, she says. We are small, but we have a huge heart. You are a teacher. You are not a soldier.

Panama was the first country Rubio visited as Secretary of State, but he kept a low profile, saying nothing publicly about the canal through all of his meetings and events yesterday. By the time he did say something on the record about the canal, he was in El Salvador, and he mostly reiterated what President Trump had already said.

This episode was produced by Karen Zamora, Alejandra Marquez-Hance, Rolando Arrieta, Andrea Salcedo, and Connor Donovan. It was edited by Courtney Dorning and Sammy Yenigan, who's also our executive producer. It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Ari Shapiro.

So this for us is like a goldmine. One of the group's illustrators is Esperanza Villalobos. She recently drew an image of President Trump as a baby pointing at the Panama Canal and crying, I want that one.

A few days before President Trump took over the White House for the second time, I got back in touch with someone I met years ago during the first Trump administration.

I could imagine someone in your position feeling like, oh, no, not this again. Or this is what I trained for. This is what I live for. Bring it on. Where are you on a scale between those two emotions?

She's based in Seattle with clients in a bunch of Western states.

Consider this. Where President Trump claims success fighting illegal immigration, many people affected by his policies experience chaos and panic. From NPR, I'm Ari Shapiro.

It's Consider This from NPR.

During Donald Trump's first week in office, he signed dozens of executive orders, and many were about immigration.

Immigration was the central focus of Donald Trump's presidential campaign.

Exactly one week after President Trump took the oath of office.

What's the week been like for you?

Andrea Lino told me about one client of hers in Denver. He was getting cancer treatment. A friend picked him up from chemo and they stopped at a Walmart on the way home. The friend went into the store while the client stayed in the car. Then the client called Andrea and said, immigration agents are in Walmart arresting people.

When we asked the Denver Office of Immigration and Customs Enforcement about this incident, they told us, quote, Due to our operational tempo and the increased interest in our agency, we are not able to research and respond to rumors or specifics of routine daily operations. In that first week of the Trump presidency, Lino did not see mass arrests or a spike in deportations.

What she saw was panic. And she thinks that was deliberate.

Some of her clients have been scared enough to self-deport. And the Trump administration has specifically said that's one of their goals. Leave now.

On Tuesday, he'll address Congress and the nation in a major speech where he'll sum up what he's accomplished in his first month. I wanted to know what that month has felt like to someone far outside Washington, D.C., who represents some of the people the administration is targeting for deportation.

Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem delivered this message in a video on her department's YouTube page.

Does it now feel like the dust has settled a little bit, or is there still that sense of chaos and uncertainty?

Andrea Lino told me her organization, the Northwest Immigrant Rights Project, did have a big victory in the last month. When the ACLU went to court challenging Trump's executive order aimed at ending birthright citizenship, they needed to find people who would actually be harmed by the policy.

So when the judge issued the ruling siding with your clients, what was that day like for you?

But at least for one day you could exhale.

The big pattern she's seen in the last month? Not major workplace raids or neighborhood sweeps. Instead, it's a lot of traffic stops.

And she sees big geographic differences. Like, she told us about some clients who live in eastern Washington state. Police there don't cooperate with ICE. But her clients work over the state line in Idaho, which is where cops pulled them over.

Four people were in the car. One decided to just leave the country. Three of them decided to challenge their arrest.

So I occasionally checked in with Andre Alino over these last weeks, starting in mid-January, just before Inauguration Day.

And how confident are you that when you show up in court and say this was an improper arrest, your clients will be released and be able to go back to their normal lives?

The bond hearing for the three men was the day after we spoke. So the next day when she got out of court, Andrea Lino emailed us with an update. The judge deemed her clients a flight risk. Bond denied. She wrote, pretty devastating for my clients and their families. She plans to continue challenging their arrest, but they'll remain locked up while their case unfolds.

This episode was produced by Alejandra Marquez-Hance and was edited by Ashley Brown with Nadia Lansi. Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan. Thanks to our Consider This Plus listeners who support the work of NPR journalists and help keep public radio strong. Supporters also hear every episode without messages from sponsors. Learn more at plus.npr.org. It's Consider This from NPR.

I'm Ari Shapiro.

She told me the worst part was the uncertainty.

Before Trump was sworn in, Lina was spending time calming people down and educating them.

So you're telling people don't believe everything you hear.

These days, there's a lot of news. It can be hard to keep up with what it means for you, your family and your community. Consider This from NPR is a podcast that helps you make sense of the news. Six days a week, we bring you a deep dive on a story and provide the context, backstory and analysis you need to understand our rapidly changing world. Listen to the Consider This podcast from NPR.

It sounds to me like your immune system may be in overdrive right now, Gina. So out of solidarity and sympathy, you want to tell us about the immune system telling time?

Wild. How does the immune system know whether it's day or nighttime?

Fascinating question. How did scientists go about trying to answer it?

How could this knowledge be useful for people trying to fight diseases?

Cool. OK, next up, let's talk about these contact lenses that let the wearer see infrared light, which sounds to me like something out of James Bond or Mission Impossible. Are we talking about like night vision goggles in a contact lens?

How did scientists make them?

Wow, that's amazing. Now, it sounds like these might not be ready for prime time yet, but once they are on the market, what do you think people are going to do with them?

Only one of your favorites? It's always an honor to be here.

Wow. Okay, for the third story, you've got this hawk that I'm personally obsessed with. I've read all about this young Cooper's hawk in New Jersey. Set the scene for us.

Yeah. So explain how this hawk knew in advance when the line of cars would become long.

Well, let's get to the stories. I hear today we've got one on the immune system telling time.

So what's the takeaway here? Just like hawks are smart?

Oh, that's such a sad ending, but I hope the hawk is living a fulfilling life wherever it is.

Thank you for having me. I always love this.

Oh, thanks for stopping by. So combing through all the headlines, all of the embargo journals, we found some pretty interesting stuff.

Okay, so they're said to be a little sweeter, more buttery, and nestled in this fuzzy green husk that extends outward, like the beak of a bird. And for generations, the indigenous people of British Columbia passed down stories of these hazelnuts as a vital food source they actively planted and cultivated.

meaning it had to be the ancestors of First Nations tribes who deliberately brought beaked hazelnuts with them.

Well, possibly. We've at least learned that some of the conditions necessary for life could have been present a long time ago, because scientists have found more evidence that there might have been hydrothermal vents on Mars.

Yes, exactly. They spew out hot liquid mixed with gases and minerals. Hydrothermal vents are discussed a lot as a theoretical origin point for life on Earth. You can actually hear a lot about it in a shortwave episode Gina did a few weeks ago. But yeah, we could talk about that forever, so we shouldn't get too into it.

How an ancient piece of meteorite from Mars points to a possibly habitable past.

Yeah. So something that is really important to note about this rock is that the meteorite has zircon in it, which is a mineral that is very nice to have if you're a geologist, because you can date when it was formed. Scientists use zircon all the time to date rocks on Earth.

One of the researchers who's been studying this, geologist Aaron Kavosi, explained to me that they tried to get as much information as they could out of this rare bit of ancient zircon, despite its tiny size.

So what Aaron and his team did next was look at zircons on Earth, zircons from all kinds of different environments, trying to figure out what conditions could make zircon look like this. And they found an example of a zircon with this onion-like pattern that was found in a hydrothermal vent on Earth.

Delicious. All that on this episode of Shortwave, the science podcast from NPR.

Yeah, and while liquid water on Mars may not be new news exactly, this research suggests Mars once had this hot liquid crust, maybe even way back at the beginning. But talking to other researchers in the field, more evidence is needed before we can say that this is likely the case.

Fish.

So earlier this month, an oarfish washed up along the southern California coast. Generally, oarfish are long and slender, kind of like giant eels. They can grow to be longer than a school bus. They have big eyes, but no scales or teeth. And as our colleague James Dubeck reported, this was the third to show up since August.

Now, this is pretty interesting because in the last 120 plus years, scientists have only spotted 22 of these oarfish on the California coast.

Given how rare it is to see them, it's really no surprise that these fish are more of a thing of folklore.

Well, occasionally in history, some Japanese media has linked deep sea fish, like the oarfish, with earthquakes as bad omens that warn people an earthquake is coming within the next several weeks.

Honestly, we're seemingly mid-mystery at this point. Scientists said that it may have to do with changes in ocean condition like the El Niño or La Niña cycle or red tides, for example. But in the meantime, it is an oarfish mystery.

This episode was produced by Rachel Carlson and Jordan Marie Smith. It was edited by Rebecca Ramirez and Christopher Intagliata. Tyler Jones checked the facts. David Greenberg and Jimmy Keeley were the audio engineers. I'm Emily Kwong. And I'm Jessica Young. Thanks for listening to Shortwave, the science podcast from NPR.

So like the same effect is making chimps pee together that makes us yawn in sequence? Yeah.

To see when they pee? She had to track every time one of them relieved themselves?

So when my boss pees, I'm going to pee? Yeah, maybe.

OK, so there's clearly more to study here. But is there any evolutionary reason that contagious urination would be an advantage?

Okay, let's move on from that one. Tell me about our second story, A Chorus in Space.

Of course I do.

I feel like I'm in a jungle listening to the dawn chorus.

How so?

I'm sure Brian Eno is going to make a record with these waves any day now. But if I'm not Brian Eno, why should I care about this?

Okay, shall we make another really hard pivot from chorus waves in space to vegan cheese? What's up with the vegan cheese?

Oh, I spent a lot of time with vegans. I've absolutely tried vegan cheese. I think they do better at like the ultra processed Velveeta type stuff than they do at like the artisanal aged cheddar.

I only came because I heard you were going to be here, John.

So this is going to sound like the setup to a joke, but how do you make better vegan cheese?

I'm not going to say I wanted a break from politics, but now that I've been here with you all, I think maybe I needed it.

Let's start with contagious peeing among chips. Sorry, it's NPR. We should say urination. Contagious urination. What is going on?

Oh, like a sphinx or a griffin. No, I'm guessing that's not what it actually looks like.

I think I'm in love.

I would love to. Ooh, cool. It's got like little things in the middle of it. What's going on there? Can you just describe what this looks like?

Oh, I love that introduction.

Wow. And researchers had no idea what it was.

The puff of smoke, the cannons, the fireworks. Good to be here.

Oh, I actually, from tide pooling as a kid in Oregon, I am obsessed with nudibranchs. They're like the punk rockers of the sea. Sea slugs, basically, right?

No, it doesn't.

I'm so glad to learn about this creature.

All right. From the deep sea, let's pivot to exercise. What is the new discovery about exercise?

So what does that mean, actually?

How did they measure that?

So is the takeaway here that exercise helps promote nerve growth? Is that what they found?

I'm picturing like those 80s exercise machines where a strap just kind of wobbles you back and forth and it's supposed to have some positive impact.

And I will sit back and enjoy it all.

Okay, we've discussed exercise. Now let's get to feasting. Tips for getting through the holidays. What do we need to know?

Take it away. All right.

I actually don't have that problem. I'm not one to skip meals.

Overeating I thought was the whole point of the holidays. OK, what's tip number two?

No binging on celery juice and chili pepper, huh?

Noted. Okay, what's your final tip?

That one I can take on board.

Okay, to start us off, let's go deep. What's down there?

Or Greek yogurt, for that matter.

Yeah. With the cranberry sauce stirred in.

More tips and recipes on all things considered. No, it's always really great to talk to you.

I love Monterey Bay. It's an amazing place.

How devious is it?

Mystery mollusk. What's so mysterious about it?

question has been, how are these things coming together? The magic of how these things come together has been a mystery.

Wow. So there might be a bone age in addition to a stone age.

Wow. So do the tools actually teach us anything about how smart these ancient human ancestors were or how they lived? Mm-hmm.

Just more hair.

Intriguing. Well, let's shift from our ancient past to our science fiction present. Tell me about drinking lemonade in virtual reality. What does that mean?

No.

Calorie free, I would imagine.

Not just a simulation of lemonade, but actually how sweet or sour they made it specifically.

How does eTaste work?

Round me up.

Here we go.

I'm going to maintain that I would still be able to tell the difference between the chemical simulation of lemonade and actual lemon juice and sugar. But can e-taste recreate more complicated flavors like, I don't know, beef bourguignon or something?

Wow. Okay, for our third and final story, Rachel, will you tell us about the woolly devil, which is neither made of wool nor a devil?

Yum.

Who discovered these little flowers?

Okay, what did Team Wooly determine about this new flower?

This is major. Team Woolly must be thrilled.

Why do you got to end on such a bummer?

Drink some lemonade.

I raise my glass of lemonade to you.

Can we start with early humans making tools out of bones? Rachel, tell us about it.

The biggest event on his schedule was this meeting with the president of Panama, where apparently Rubio delivered an ultimatum. And I say apparently because Rubio actually did not make any public comments about the canal yesterday.

But according to a State Department spokesperson, Rubio delivered the message that President Trump has made a preliminary determination that China has too much influence over the canal. He says that violates international treaties. And unless there are immediate changes, the U.S. will do what it has to to protect its rights.

By the way, Steve, quick fact check on Trump's claims of Chinese influence. While a company based in Hong Kong does operate ports at either end of the canal, Panama runs the canal itself, not China. And there is no Chinese military presence, as Trump has falsely claimed on social media.

After the meeting yesterday, President José Raúl Mulino said Panama's sovereignty is not in question. And then he gave what you could interpret as kind of a dig at the United States. He's saying, I invited the State Department to promote investment in this country so they can't complain later that investments are coming from other countries.

That quote doesn't mention China by name, but you can kind of read between the lines there. What are you hearing from the Panamanian people? It's this wave of nationalism, flags flying everywhere, and protests in the streets. I attended a couple marches that shut down main streets here in Panama City.

One was organized by the Teachers Union, where I met a woman named Mylene Shakespeare, and I asked what she wants Americans to know. Here's what she said. She says, we are taking to the streets to defend our country. The Panama Canal is for Panamanians. Then you hear her recite this rhyming slogan people had been chanting in the march. Basically, no Americans, Panama first.

So big picture here, the U.S. is not backing down from Trump's threats. Panama is not caving. And the stakes are huge. 40% of all U.S. container traffic goes through the Panama Canal. So it's pretty remarkable for these two countries to be in such a standoff, given how close the U.S. and Panama have been for decades.

On to El Salvador, Guatemala, Costa Rica, and the Dominican Republic, where he plans to talk about migration and drug trafficking. He's the first Hispanic secretary of state. The State Department says this underscores Trump's message that it's a 21st century of American greatness and countering China.