Arthur Allen
Appearances
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
What's kind of ironic is that, you know, vaccine safety and vaccine skepticism really don't track together.
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
It certainly is. I mean, when I wrote my book and it came out in 2007, it was like there were two journalists interested in vaccines in any way. And, you know, the idea of the skeptics were just totally fringe. I mean, that's what everyone thought. And now here they are inside the castle.
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
Well, there are a lot of strands to skepticism about vaccines. The basic thing is that vaccines are given to healthy people, often to kids, and the whole idea of them is a little bit frightening. And when they succeed, nothing happens. And so, you know, there's very little kind of rah-rah for vaccines like in the Vox Pop because— Most people alive today haven't seen the worst of what they do.
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
So that, I mean, that's an important like condition because what happens is that, you know, there are people who just think that putting something in your body like this to prevent a disease goes against God or isn't natural or is, you know, a pharmaceutical plot. I mean, there's many different strands and they all kind of tend to come together and have at the moment.
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
If you go back far enough, I mean, the first inoculation in North America was in the 1720s. And it was considered, you know, they were trying to vaccinate against smallpox. And it was a dangerous procedure, but it was actually beneficial. And it was widely adopted for the next 80 years. But
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
At that time, you know, it was considered ungodly, like, you know, not that people would take the craziest medicines. This has always been true, that people will take any kind of crazy medication to treat an illness. But the idea that you would prevent something in the first instance was considered sort of to go against religion.
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
And there were also people who argued and eventually successfully that, you know, vaccination was a gift from God.
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
Right. And especially with a baby. You know, like, you were injecting this sinful material into a baby, you know?
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
Well, actually, you know, a contaminated smallpox vaccine is why we have an FDA. I mean, around 1902, there was this terrible outbreak of tetanus, and it killed a number of kids in Camden, New Jersey, and in a bunch of other places, there were also deaths. And it was smallpox vaccine that hadn't been properly made and was contaminated.
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
And so there were frequent reports, if you look in the literature from these days, like I extensively looked through everything in Pennsylvania, like the first 10 years of the century, and swollen arms were really common, bad infections, there weren't any antibiotics, so you had a bad infection, there wasn't much you could do about it. And the public health people in those days
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
It was like a new tool that they had and they were pretty brutal at times. I mean, they were forced vaccinations where they would chase down workers and they would, you know, pull them out of like drain pipes to vaccinate them and this kind of thing. And the vaccines were not entirely safe and they were very varied. Some were, some weren't.
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
And so, like I said, that was one of the things that led to the creation of the FDA. So that's smallpox. And then, you know, you have time marches on and medicine starts to have some legitimacy. And then after World War II, you know, it really has legitimacy because you've got antibiotics.
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
You've got a bunch of, you know, viruses were kind of discovered and worked on by the military during World War II. And the flu vaccine was developed. It wasn't very good, but a ton of other things were developed. And all this research was done into viruses and it led to the polio vaccine.
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
And so the polio vaccine came, you know, there was a trial involving like, I think, a million and a half kids. So here's an unlicensed vaccine. You know, three million parents are happy to have their kids vaccinated with this thing. And luckily it worked. And, you know, in 1955, that was this, you know, huge moment of celebration. And, you know, church bells rang and this kind of thing.
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
And it was at a time of great confidence in the system, you know, and in the government, we just wanted World War II. So that's a period. And then we have measles vaccine came in the early 60s and other vaccines came along. But there was sort of as a footnote to the polio vaccine campaign, there was several bad batches of vaccine made by Cutter Laboratories and some also by Wyeth Pharmaceuticals.
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
that gave kids polio because it was an inactivated polio vaccine that hadn't been properly inactivated. So that was a little bit, that caused them to pause the vaccination campaign, but it really was like a blip.
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
And to me, that's a very significant moment because that was possibly one of the worst vaccine accidents in sort of the modern era, but it really didn't do much to stop public confidence in vaccinations. Really, the first blow to vaccination in a way that had ripples on a national level was the swine flu affair of 1976, which was a soldier at Fort Dix, New Jersey, died of the flu.
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
It was a new strain of flu. And the CDC, the public health authorities thought, uh-oh, this is like the new pandemic coming down the line.
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
They convinced Gerald Ford and it was a mass vaccination program.
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
So that was kind of a big fall on your face moment for public health? And then following that, there were started to be lawsuits over the whooping cough vaccine. The whooping cough vaccine, the whole cell pertussis vaccine had been around since the 30s, but there had been reports sort of all along that it was a very reactive vaccine. And if you talk to the vaccine experts,
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
Reactive doesn't mean the same as dangerous, but for a parent whose kid gets the vaccine and they have 103 fever or, you know, they have seizures, which, you know, can be benign, but like are terrifying. You know, it was a nasty piece of work. It was also very effective.
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
But there were a number of cases of lawsuits starting in the early 80s, and it was starting to really catch on as a legal issue, like, you know, asbestos or something.
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
And this was, you know, a crisis for the vaccination program because a bunch of, you know, vaccine makers were getting out of the business. They were like frightened of the liability issue. They weren't making a lot of money on these vaccines anyway. I mean, Pertussis vaccine at the time probably cost like 15 cents a dose or something.
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
So in sort of more contemporary times, that was the first big, like, anti-vaccine skepticism moment.
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
That's right. And also it's important to point along that sort of all along during the period of when vaccines are causing this or that sort of minor issue, there's a parallel universe in which vaccines are like causing everything. And so... What do you mean? Like blamed for like...
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
causing kids to be autistic, causing, you know, rock and roll, causing, you know, headbanging, causing, you know, crime. I mean, the pertussis vaccine was blamed for, like, everything. I mean, the anti-vaccine movement really kind of had a moment of incredible growth during all of that.
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
And then in the 90s, the sort of mainstay of the anti-vaccine movement, you know, really was created during the whole controversy over Autism, because autism has increased over the past three, four, five decades, and no one is that sure what the cause is. And people were pointing fingers at vaccines.
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
And a paper was published to that effect in 1998 and then refuted repeatedly, but it continues to live on that idea.
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
I mean, I think they're, you know, as safe as they've ever been. I mean, they're tested through a number of procedures that look for really big danger signals. And then as soon as they go on the market, the CDC has a system for looking for danger signals that I think is probably better than anything they have for drugs. I mean, it's pretty good.
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
It's not like it's a perfect system, but I personally would sort of have confidence that it would find anything safe. fairly obvious or significant.
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
I mean, I think there's a lot of money behind them. There's a hard core of people who are skeptical of vaccines and any new technology in particular they're like immediately distrustful of. I mean, you just saw all the crazy stuff that went on, you know, that Bill Gates was putting microchips in the vaccines. So I think there's just an inherent mistrust. And then...
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
The COVID experience, you know, that got so polarized and arguably public health went a little bit overboard in, you know, how long schools were kept closed in some places or, you know, closing beaches that wasn't really necessary. So I think the turn against vaccines became part of the whole, like, mistrust of public the government, which was very polarized.
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
I mean, it was like, you know, for a lot of people, Tony Fauci was a hero and it seemed like he was kind of a hero for everybody for a while. And then he became this demon who they want to throw in jail to this day. What's kind of ironic is that, you know, vaccine safety and vaccine skepticism really don't track together. Vaccine skepticism has to do with confidence in the government.
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
Vaccine safety, you know, is a progressive thing that in general has gotten better over time.
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
Yeah, I think so. I mean, it's kind of interesting. In 2014, there was a measles outbreak at Disneyland.
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
This led to a decision by the very Democratic legislature in California to tighten requirements on the school vaccination.
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
Up to then, in California, you could get an exemption for your kid from vaccination on fairly flimsy grounds, religious or philosophical. And they got rid of that. And there was a huge backlash against that. There were movements all over the country to tighten rules. And that really, like, gave a shot in the arm, so to speak, to the anti-vaccine movement. And so that movement was there.
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
And then the pandemic sort of joined them with all these like Moms for Liberty and all these other sort of anti-government groups and anti-public health people. But the anti-vaccine core was quite strong before the pandemic.
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
Well, I think the thing that people don't realize about the vaccine sort of enterprise is it's actually pretty fragile. I mean, drug companies come in and out of the vaccine business readily. Like the industry's interest in vaccines is not that big. I mean, some of them make money now. The Shingrix makes money. The pneumococcus vaccine, which a lot of older people get, make money.
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
The rest of them, you know, I'm sure, I don't know, they probably break even on some of them or maybe make a small part of it, but they're not like blockbuster drugs.
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
That's right. And the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices, that's at the CDC, when they make a recommendation for a vaccine, that automatically makes it available to poor kids through the Vaccine for Children. So Trump or RFK can take over the advisory committee and stack it with his people who could get rid of it altogether. It expires during Trump's term unless it gets renewed.
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
Well, there have been 16 measles outbreaks in the country this year. Whooping cough is on the upswing. That's partly because it's cyclical and because our current vaccine doesn't completely prevent infections, sort of like the COVID vaccine doesn't. Pertussis, I mean, it can be a very nasty disease, but it's usually not fatal unless you're a baby.
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
And so there could be low levels but growing levels of these diseases that just, you know, kind of happen and nobody really does anything about it. And it'll lead to chaos in emergency rooms. It'll lead to, you know, more strains on the healthcare system and it'll lead to deaths and misery, you know, for kids.
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
What worries me is like, even in a way you almost think, oh gee, if like five kids died of measles, would that like turn things around? But it's almost more worrisome to think, well, there could be five deaths of kids and it won't turn things around.
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
Well, I think, unfortunately, it would have to be some kind of a disaster that public health comes in and resolves. And it could be, you know, a terrible measles outbreak or epidemic or whooping cough epidemic that kills a bunch of babies. I mean, based on the historical example, that's when public health is really popular. And look at polio.
Radio Atlantic
How Fragile Is Our Vaccine Infrastructure?
I mean, that was like probably the high moment for public health, you know, in the last 150 years. And that was this disease that everybody was afraid of. They came in with a vaccine and they, you know, wiped it out.