Ben van Kerkwyk
👤 PersonPodcast Appearances
I have been so looking forward to this.
Since I saw your video on the labyrinth in Egypt,
There appears to be a 40-meter-long metallic tic-tac-shaped object.
How deep into the ground?
Well, it's a good tease.
And I remember I was in the gym while I was watching it and I literally stopped working out.
I was like, OK, I got to pause this.
This is not something that I can consume while I'm working out.
I need to really pay attention to this because it's so wild.
object that's sitting in there so how did you find out about the labyrinth like this is something that has been talked about for a long time thousands of years yeah but no one it's not in any like traditional archaeology books it's not it is is it yeah yeah no it is so the labyrinth is kind of this is the other part that drew that drew me to it uh
How do conventional archaeologists approach this?
Do they discuss this at all?
They were covered up.
This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter.
The hiring process can be absurdly time consuming.
Like when you're looking for a new doctor, you spend hours searching.
When you finally feel like you found the right one, it turns out they're not accepting new patients.
The same thing happens when you're hiring.
You scan through hundreds of resumes.
You find one you like, only discover they aren't actively looking for a job.
Well, good news for all you hiring managers out there.
Your search looks a little less frustrating now thanks to ZipRecruiter.
And bonus, you can try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash Rogan.
ZipRecruiter has added new tools and features to help speed up the hiring process and save you valuable time.
They can easily connect you with qualified candidates in minutes.
They also have a wide pool of talent to choose from and it's continuously growing.
Over 320,000 resumes are added monthly so you can reach more potential hires.
Use ZipRecruiter and save time hiring.
Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day.
And if you go to ZipRecruiter.com slash Rogan right now, you can try it for free.
Again, that's ZipRecruiter.com slash Rogan.
ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire.
This episode is brought to you by Visible.
I want to let you in on something.
Your current wireless carrier does not want you to know about Visible because Visible is the ultimate wireless hack.
No confusing plans with surprise fees, no nonsense, just fast speeds, great coverage without the premium cost.
With Visible, you get one line wireless with unlimited data powered by Verizon's network for $25 a month, taxes and fees included.
What you see is what you pay.
No hidden fees on top of that.
Join now and unlock unlimited data for just $25 a month on the Visible plan.
Don't think wireless can be so transparent, so Visible?
Switch today at visible.com slash rogan.
See visible.com for plan features and network management details.
For people at home, it's like a football field.
What is the difference between 100 yards and 100 meters?
So they found... Much larger than that.
Yeah, no, it extends... So what is the overall structure?
And they have dismissed things in the past that they then accepted later.
Fascinating situation over there with him.
Isn't there a way to sort of massage that situation and to talk to Zahi and say, listen, you can be the guy who found this.
So this water table, it has risen slowly over – No, since the 1960s, since they built the dam.
This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter.
The hiring process can be absurdly time consuming.
Like when you're looking for a new doctor, you spend hours searching.
When you finally feel like you found the right one, it turns out they're not accepting new patients.
The same thing happens when you're hiring.
You scan through hundreds of resumes.
You find one you like, only discover they aren't actively looking for a job.
Well, good news for all you hiring managers out there.
Your search looks a little less frustrating now thanks to ZipRecruiter.
And bonus, you can try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash Rogan.
ZipRecruiter has added new tools and features to help speed up the hiring process and save you valuable time.
They can easily connect you with qualified candidates in minutes.
They also have a wide pool of talent to choose from, and it's continuously growing.
Over 320,000 resumes are added monthly, so you can reach more potential hires.
Use ZipRecruiter and save time hiring.
Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day.
And if you go to ZipRecruiter.com slash Rogan right now, you can try it for free.
Again, that's ZipRecruiter.com slash Rogan.
ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire.
Now, when you were saying millions, were you going to say dollars or were you going to say gallons of water?
Could it be done without interrupting the farmers?
Someone needs to holler at Jeff Bezos.
Yeah, someone with some deep pockets.
Like, don't you want to know?
Don't you want to know?
So the actual labyrinth, very bottom layers.
But is it possible that they could somehow or another from the side dig a tunnel below everything?
And below the water?
Isn't technology fucking awesome?
It's so awesome that they just have the ability to do that and look at that.
Beyond the Caffrey stuff, which, you know, I don't want to get disappointed.
So I look at that like, hmm, like it's too great.
It's too spectacular.
And if it's true, oh boy, does that change everything about everything?
Their interpretations of it are a little weird.
Because you don't really have a crystal clear view of what this thing is.
You're making it look like it's some sort of a Tesla coil or whatever it is.
Are there ancient artistic depictions?
Herodotus didn't have access?
Go back to Strabo's depictions.
In addition to these things, there is the edifice of the labyrinth, which is a building quite equal to the pyramids, a great palace made of many palaces for such as the number of, how's that word?
Purstyle courts, which lie contiguous with one another.
Before the entrances, there lie what might be called hidden chambers, which are long and many in number and have paths running through one another, which twist and turn so that no one can enter or leave any court without a guide.
And here, Pliny the Elder, who lived between 23 and 79 CE, which is current time.
So he's saying 3,600 years ago, this was constructed according to tradition.
Isn't that interesting?
So that predates the pyramids.
So with the conventional dating of the pyramids, that's more than 1,000 years earlier.
And the conventional dating is like...
What is the carbon dating from pieces in between the stones?
And what is the room for error when they do rate carbon data?
That's very convenient.
Well, all of it's convenient, which gets really weird because we know that they did some enhancements to the pyramid.
Like they refurbished some things.
And so that's the problem is like you refurbished what and how long was it there before you refurbished it?
Can you give me an example of these precision artifacts?
Week one starts now, and every touchdown brings you closer to a payout with DraftKings Sportsbook, an official sports betting partner of the NFL.
Every touchdown could hit big.
Don't just watch the game when you can win with it.
DraftKings Sportsbook brings the unmatched intensity of the NFL straight to your fingertips.
Whether you're backing the first touchdown score, hitting everything,
Anytime TD props or riding the thrills of live in-game betting, every play is packed with possibility.
New customers, this one's for you.
Bet just $5 and get $300 in bonus bets instantly.
Plus, grab over $200 off NFL Sunday ticket from your YouTube and YouTube TV.
Your season starts now.
Download the DraftKings Sportsbook app and use the code ROGAN.
That's code ROGAN to get $300 in bonus bets instantly when you place your first bet of $5 or more.
Plus, over $200 off NFL Sunday ticket from YouTube and YouTube TV.
In partnership with DraftKings, the crown is yours.
It is a 3D printed one.
Can you, for people that don't know about this stuff, can you just give them some numbers on what... Sure.
The problem with the lathe, though, is the handles on this, right?
And you don't see a lack of symmetry in those spaces.
With incredibly hard stone.
I just got to think, like, who made this, and how old is this?
And this is so thin.
Wow, look at the light going through it.
How do we know that this is pre-dynastic?
So you could get a hold of one of those legally?
It's... Show that image again, Jimmy?
That you just pulled up?
So, well, there's the fire and there's Egypt.
This episode is brought to you by Squarespace.
You thinking about starting a website to sell online?
Squarespace is the way to go.
They make it easy for customers to find you thanks to the integrated SEO tools that optimize your online presence.
Plus, Squarespace's selling tools allow you to offer services, take payments, and streamline bookings all in one place.
Go to squarespace.com slash rogan for a free trial.
And when you are ready to launch, use the code rogan to get 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.
This episode is brought to you by the farmer's dog.
I think we can all agree that eating highly processed food for every meal isn't optimal.
So why is processed food the status quo for dog food?
Because that's what kibble is, an ultra processed food.
But a healthy alternative exists, the farmer's dog.
They make fresh food for dogs.
And what does it look like?
Real meat and vegetables that are gently cooked to retain vital nutrients and help avoid any of the bad stuff that comes with ultra processing.
And it's not just random ingredients thrown together.
Their food is formulated by on-staff board certified vet nutritionists.
These people are experts on dog nutrition and they're all in on fresh food.
The Farmer's Dog also does something unique.
They portion out the food to your dog's nutritional needs.
This ensures that you don't overfeed them, making weight management easy.
Research shows that dogs kept at a healthy weight can live up to two and a half years longer.
Head to thefarmersdog.com slash rogan to get 50% off your first box plus free shipping.
This offer is for new customers only.
Go back to that image, Jamie, please.
One of the things that freaks me out about the map is when you go out, it looks like it was washed over.
Like, go back out again.
Look at that below it.
That's exactly what it looks like.
It looks washed out.
Yeah, but that's crazy.
Like, how much water washed that out?
And how else would you get what looks exactly like a water washout?
How else would those features be on the surface?
That just looks like channels.
It just looks like an insane amount of water literally washed over the area and smoothed it out.
It's so crazy that when you get to sub-Saharan Africa, how little of that has been explored.
And how much of that was insanely green and fertile.
I mean, thank God there's a place where a video like yours can get millions of views, where so many people all around the world can watch that and go, wow.
Wait, what's going on down there?
And why are these people so sure?
Why are they so arrogant in their ideas?
Because it's very clear that it's...
There's not a, you know, like we know Civil War ended in 1865, right?
It's like it's all written down.
Everybody knows people were alive.
There's like photographs of the soldiers.
We're pretty accurate with that.
You get to fucking 6,000 BC, man.
You're just guessing.
It's a – yes, the further back you go, the much hazy – you can't tell.
Yeah, and it's also – it scares them because something like that, if you really do find advanced structures that are at 6,000 B.C.
Before Gobekli Tepe, we didn't even know that that was even possible.
And that's that famous conversation that happened with Robert Shock and that really arrogant archaeologist.
Yes, which is, he's laughing.
Like, why would you laugh about ancient history, first of all?
What ancient civilizations are, is that guy still alive?
Yeah, show me the potsherds.
He must feel so stupid now.
After Gobekli Tepe, someone should show him that video and go, why were you laughing?
Because this is just human ego.
This is human ego on display for the world.
You want to be the gatekeepers of this information.
You want to be the one person or the person that represents this group of human beings that are the scholars, that have published work, that have taught at universities.
And you're the only ones.
You're the only ones that know.
the ancient history of Earth, despite the fact that there's people like yourself and Graham Hancock, who've spent a lot of time, and they're very careful about what they say, and spent a lot of time investigating this.
And they just want to dismiss those people because they don't have the proper credentials.
What are you talking about?
The problem is they're still doing it the same way.
It's like when CNN journalists get fired from CNN and start a podcast, and everybody's like, no, you're doing CNN outside of CNN.
That's what they're doing.
They're doing academia, which is like gatekeeping of information, and also like...
Pejoratives, mocking, really shitty behavior towards anyone who's outside of it, including calling them racist, calling them white supremacists.
It's so dumb because one of the dumbest parts about it is no matter what.
those are the people that lived in Africa.
So no matter what, no matter what happened, whoever built that is people that lived in Africa.
So shut the fuck up.
The white supremacy thing makes no sense.
100, look, that's the people that were living there.
If humans made it, you know, if you're not in the alien camp, which is a bizarre camp, but if you're not in the, I'm in the ancient civilization, incredibly advanced, cataclysmic disaster, wipes them out, civilization takes a long time to rebuild, finds the remnants of these ancient civilizations, and then sort of claims them over generations.
After a thousand years, nobody really knows who fucking built it.
And then this is where I think we find ourselves.
That's where I'm at.
But if you're in that camp, you're talking about Africans.
So all these shitty things they do just show their hand.
Just show what they're really all about.
What you're really all about is silencing anything that really throws a monkey wrench into everything you've been teaching for decades.
Like you've claimed that you're the expert.
You've claimed arrogantly that you have all the information when you clearly are wrong.
I don't know how you can ignore the vases, how you can ignore the statues, the symmetry and the construction of the faces.
Well, the issue with the drill bits is the revolutions per minute, right?
But you have no idea of the power source, no idea of what the material was that cut.
Can I pause you for a second here?
Are the oldest tools that they found copper?
And what are the dates of the oldest tools?
So when you find – The term alloy, doesn't that refer to something that has – It's melted, right, that's been put together.
But, uh, it's a play with devil's advocate.
Would that be evidence of a lack of a chain of custody that perhaps someone was potentially using titanium to see if they could
But that was the only piece of titanium you did?
How is titanium made?
Has anybody tested the radioactive levels of the cores?
They had advanced nuclear science somehow or another.
That's just too much.
I mean, it's not too much, but it's too much.
But also, when you do see some of the sculptures that look 3D printed, and you go, well, okay, now it kind of at least makes a little sense.
See, if we knew for sure that there was a cataclysm and a lost civilization, that civilization had achieved some immense heights of technological sophistication in a completely different pathway than we've done in modern times.
If we knew that for sure, then everything would be so easy.
You'd go, okay, well, clearly they were doing something.
What were they doing?
But instead we deny that possibility.
So by closing off that door, now you're left with nonsense.
You're left with sand and copper and it's dumb.
The nuclear machining hypothesis, sorry to interrupt you, but if you go a thousand years from now, for sure we're going to have that.
And it's also this assumption that there's been a linear path of progression always.
But that's not even the case today, right?
You can go to ancient sites, whether it is in Mexico or even in Greece, and you see really shitty construction right next to the Parthenon, right?
I mean, the Acropolis and the Parthenon is right next to crappy apartment buildings, right?
They're really close, right?
You've obviously, you can't do, you're not, why didn't you do that?
It's something, there's something weird.
There's something weird going on.
And this is like 2,000 years ago where we knew who they were.
We know the people, we know they did it.
Like amazing precision, amazing construction methods, incredible art, incredible engineering and architecture, right?
all understandable, but yet more advanced than the techniques utilized in 2025 in the exact same area, which is weird, right?
So that's without a cataclysm.
So you see a decline, at least in craftsmanship, that can be attributed to a changing of cultures.
But this assumption that there's always this linear path of progression and if you go back, they were dumb.
You go back far enough, they were dumber.
But that doesn't seem to be the case here.
And Egypt is the best example.
That's the stuff that I brought up with Zahi.
And he was like, what is this?
I'm reading where I'm listening to the Book of Enoch right now.
Yeah, that's some wild shit, too.
You're going, what are you saying?
Like, gods, the watchers, came down and mated with women of Earth and created the Nephilim?
Like, what are you saying?
What were you trying to say?
Thousands of years ago when they wrote this down, and the version I think that we're getting this from is from the Dead Sea Scrolls, which is from Qumran.
So how long did they write it down before that?
How long did they discuss this?
How long ago did this happen?
And what are you saying?
What were they trying to record?
And why does it match up with what they're saying in Egypt?
The gods walking amongst us?
It gets so squirrely.
And that's where you get into the alien camp.
And what kind of metal?
Imagine if it's titanium.
If there's a UFO down there.
All layers converge at a central corridor or avenue like the atrium of a shopping mall where you can see all floors from one vantage point.
My personal interpretation is that this entire hall was constructed to house a centrally positioned freestanding object about 40 meters long.
The central object is hard to classify.
It appears metallic, not stone or wood.
I named it Dippy after the giant Diplodocus skeleton in the Hintze Hall of London's, did I say that right?
Yeah, Hintze, I think.
Hintze Hall of London's Natural History Museum.
It could be anything.
Its shape resembles those tic-tac hard mints.
It might also be an upright disc or even a colossal shen ring.
And what is a shen ring?
It's like the cartouche, you know, that thing around a cartouche.
Big object alone raises profound questions.
How did it get there?
A more speculative theory is that it's some kind of portal.
Now we're going full tinfoil.
Either interdimensional or interstellar, a stargate.
Its material signature is unlike anything I've seen in my entire career, but it's there, undeniably there.
I'll let the future find out what Dippy is, Tim Akers.
Well, he went full Art Bell right there.
Interdimensional or interstellar.
Where can I find that?
Where can I see this?
Your laptop's out there?
All right, go grab it.
Not on what you gave me?
We've all joked about stalking each other online, but let's not forget, some people do it for real.
Remember the Minnesota state representative and her husband who were shot dead in their home?
Authorities now think her killer found her home address and the names of her family members from data brokers.
So how can you keep your personal information private?
ExpressVPN is an app that hides your IP address and reroutes all of your online activity through secure encrypted servers.
That means data brokers and the scammers and criminals they sell to won't have a shred of your personal information.
But what if your info is already out there?
ExpressVPN has a feature called Identity Defender, which is a free add-on for U.S.
Identity Defender helps get your information taken down fast.
It's the best tool to stay safe and regain privacy in a dangerous world.
It works on all your devices, and it comes with a 30-day money-back guarantee.
And right now, you can get four extra months free if you tap the banner or go to expressvpn.com slash rogan.
That's expressvpn.com slash rogan.
And if you're watching on YouTube, get your four free months by scanning the QR code on screen or by clicking the link in the description.
This episode is brought to you by The Smashing Machine from A24.
Dwayne The Rock Johnson and Academy Award nominee Emily Blunt star in The Smashing Machine in theaters everywhere October 3rd.
The new film from writer-director Benny Safdie about pioneering UFC fighter Mark Kerr is both amazing.
high-pressure sports biography and high-octane emotional spectacle, transporting viewers to the dawn of a new era as it follows the strongest fighter the sport had ever seen from the heights of fame to rock bottom and back again.
Watch The Smashing Machine in theaters everywhere October 3rd.
Okay, so we found it from a video from Trevor Grassi on YouTube.
The video is titled Hieroglyphic Proof of Stargate Technology with Mohammed Ibrahim, Mike Ricksecker, and Trevor Grassi.
This is what we're looking at.
That's what the star is supposed to be?
So it's the way you translate the hieroglyph.
That one that you just had there, Jamie.
Where you just had all... Yeah, right there.
So when they're referring to a Stargate, are they saying in any way what that means?
Can we see an image of that?
What are those depictions of these enormous cylindrical things that they're holding that look almost like one of those Indian clubs?
That thing down is what I was talking about.
It looks like some kind of technology.
He looks like an air traffic controller.
Does he have a fucking tail?
He does look like a, he was like a giant frog man.
Which is great for conductivity.
Yeah, I mean, it doesn't get any better.
Which is really the only good reason to have it other than looking good.
Yeah, other than balling, which they were balling, but trust me.
Four billion years old and 100,000 work.
Natural enriched uranium.
That makes sense, right?
Is there something like that in Afghanistan where this stone came from?
Let's go back to those hieroglyphs, Jamie.
The lizard guy, the frog guy, or whatever that reptilian thing is, that freaks me out.
Because that's one of the things that the weirdest –
The weirdest stories when they start talking about aliens is the different types that visit.
And that one of them is a reptilian species that are the most creepy to deal with, which makes sense.
I've heard the same thing.
They are, and so are Komodo dragons, and the idea that somehow or another they could eventually reach incredible levels of technological sophistication and intelligence.
We kind of rule that out, but look, there's clearly primates that are way dumber than us, right?
So why do we assume that it's only primates that reach an incredible high level of sophistication when we know that crows, which are really fucking close to dinosaurs...
Like smarter than most kids.
In any of these – Especially when intelligence is being exhibited by –
Things that are really close evolutionarily to reptiles.
That's the mind fuck is smart dinosaurs.
I mean, that was in Jurassic Park, right?
The raptors, they were super smart.
Yeah, they were smart, which, you know, makes sense.
Yeah, it's that whole pack, yeah, the instinct.
But the idea that we were visited by intelligent reptiles is fucking bananas.
Well, Javi Loeb is convinced that it's a UFO.
But that's what he does, right?
He did with that other one, Omanuma.
So that one was a little odd.
But like to the factor of what?
There was something about its reflective properties as well, right?
If that's how they travel, I'd be very disappointed.
They just shoot through the sky.
Well, if it slows down.
I know, but I'm looking for portals.
I'm looking for an advanced civilization that visits us.
I don't want the advanced Vikings.
I want the advanced scientists from the 21st century.
You just open up the portal.
You know what I'm saying?
The ones who come fast on a burning spaceship, they're the dangerous ones.
You're probably right.
They're probably the warlike.
conquerors, the ones who are going to rob us of our minerals and force us into slavery.
You know what I mean?
That seems like if that's how you're rocking it, you're still doing it the way we do it.
We have something thrusting you insanely fast through the cosmos.
Well, you have to hope that something is so evolved that it's gotten past war and it's gotten past the way we behave.
So we're hoping and assuming that Space Daddy.
Yeah, that Space Daddy, Space Brothers will be benevolent and wise beyond our imagination and that they will come here and want to take care of us and give us information and hook us up.
nature at some point the territorial primate instincts that we exhibit like hopefully one day because clearly we're on a pathway to that right we're clearly much kinder now yeah at least locally you know if you don't live in gaza
You know what I'm saying?
If you're in the middle of a war zone, you're like, what are you talking about?
This is as bad as it's ever been all throughout human history.
It's the same behavior exhibited over and over and over again.
What we want is aliens that are a million years more advanced.
We don't want aliens that are a thousand years more advanced.
Because they might be just like us, but way better.
That's what we don't – right?
Because as soon as we start going into the – if we venture into the cosmos in 20 years, we're going to be the same animal, right?
We're not going to be significantly different unless we integrate with technology and remove the ego and all the – Yeah, mushrooms.
Emotions, all the things, the human reward systems that exist that we currently struggle with, we would be the same way.
Just think of what we justify on Earth in terms of destruction of habitat, of native species, animals that we kill, all the different things that we do on Earth, factory farming.
Now imagine why would we care about these lizard people that live in caves on some fucking stupid planet?
We would probably kidnap them.
We'd bring them back home.
Look at what Columbus did when they arrived and took the natives and had them get gold.
And if they didn't, they cut their arms off.
Horrific, terrifying things.
So imagine there's no evidence that aliens are currently doing that, which is the promising thing.
The even the abductions.
although I'm sure they're terrifying if they're true, they seem rather benign.
Like in fact, in the Travis Walton case, do you know that one?
It's one of the most famous ones.
Not off the top of my head.
Real simple, 1970s, he's a logger, he's working with a group of guys, they see a ship, he runs toward it, he gets hit with a beam of energy, gets knocked back, unconscious, his friends flee, they come back, they're yelling at each other, we gotta go back, we gotta get him, they go back, he's gone.
All four of them get investigated for murder.
No one believes them.
They all pass polygraph tests.
Five days later, he shows up.
He finds a pay phone, makes a phone call, and has this fucking insane story.
But the story was that they took him aboard the craft and healed him and communicated with him and that there was a bunch of different types of these beings.
And then he has been telling the exact same story ever since, since the 1970s.
So, but relatively benign compared to what we would do.
You know, like we fucking, you know, we shoot elephants.
It turns into Avatar.
Think about the horrible things that we do right now on earth.
And we love violence.
Our national sport is dudes who are enormous running at each other.
And the other one is guys punching and kicking each other.
I mean, it's kind of crazy.
And then we're also involved in multiple wars simultaneously, at least proxy.
At least human beings are involved in a significant amount of war always.
It's another piece of an example – another example rather of how primitive we are that we still – the actual climate is political.
Pollution is political.
But it's also the amount of time that we've polluted the oceans in is spectacular.
What we've done just in terms of the depopulation of the ocean.
Like 90 plus percent of all big fish are gone.
In a short amount of time, like a couple hundred years of like hardcore fishing.
And we fished out the ocean, man.
Not only that, we polluted the fuck out of it to the point where you're not even supposed to eat it every day.
Right, which is more of a pity.
If you eat sushi every day, people don't recommend it.
That's how gross we are.
Somebody was over there and they chucked one overboard.
Yeah, it looks like, was it Heineken?
It looks pretty recent, right?
It's got the fucking label on it.
The label hasn't even eroded.
The challenge of deep.
If it's that recent, like, why isn't it covered in sediment?
You know what I mean?
The surface covers things up and moves over time.
It probably won't be there forever.
It probably won't be sitting on the surface like that.
Oh, right, right, right.
It should sink, I would imagine.
Unless there's some sort of a downward or upward current.
Scientists find beer bottle the deepest point of the ocean.
I don't want to go down there.
I'd rather watch a video.
Not only that, they were watching a video.
That's what's even crazier.
You go all the way down and you're watching a screen.
Imagine the freak out of being at the bottom.
He went there by himself.
Why is he doing that?
Yeah, we need you to make movies.
Well, especially not one that the engineer said wasn't really designed for those depths.
They did like 20 successful trips with that thing.
Imagine being one of those people that successfully made that journey and then the nightmares that you have every day.
Like the one right before it.
Because you barely missed it.
Yeah, the one right before.
Barely missed getting instantaneously destroyed.
I'm sure you've seen the animation, the computer recreation of what it would look like.
Yeah, you turn to blood cells.
Just the fact that we're that weird, that we choose to do that, that we have technology.
Why does this freak me out so much?
Because a guy went on with his son.
I wish I was friends with that guy.
I've seen, well, I've seen internet videos.
That's what's nuts is that the older you go, the bigger the stones are.
And what's the conventional explanation for that discrepancy?
The idea that there was a civilization that built monolithic construction 100,000 years ago is crazy.
But have you seen any of Michael Button's work?
I saw the episode, yeah.
That is a very interesting episode when he's talking about how human beings in this exact same form have been around at least 300,000 years.
So that's the fossil record.
That's all we found.
There might be human beings that were 500,000 years ago.
It would be dust what we would find now.
But that's what Michael Button's argument.
When you're dealing with anatomically similar human beings or anatomically exactly the same creature.
Which is one of the reasons why Egypt itself was so spectacular, was that it was very fertile.
Well, that's where the Reichsstaat structure gets weird.
Yeah, it's interesting.
But it's also, that's another one when you go above and you look at the satellite imagery, you go, oh, boy, that place got washed.
I mean, that place is one of the clearest examples of a place that looks like it got washed because there's literal salt deposits everywhere.
The whole thing is nuts.
I saw that that documentary was coming out.
I didn't know exactly what they had discovered.
Is there images that we can see right now of what they discovered?
I'm very happy I got John Anthony West on a couple of times before he passed.
Does it show any images, Jamie?
We're learning a ton about it.
His DVD series, Magical Egypt, is what got me hooked.
That series is insane.
It's interesting if you think of him like being concentrating on the symbolism and how much work he did.
And just you need one of those two, right?
You need a bunch of different people looking at all the different aspects of it.
And he was another one that had his interpretation was this is a lot older.
No one seems to like do a deep dive on it and go, oh, no, no, they figured this out.
Muzahi's example was so crazy.
His explanation was, this was the national project.
Imagine if we're all going to fly without wings.
This is the national project.
You're just going to use your mind and fly without wings.
We're all just going to work on that.
Well, it's interesting, too, that...
These vases, these small things that you can hold in your hand are evidence of this incredible technology.
When these enormous statues also exist, but you don't think of the vases as being the thing that's the smoking gun, but it kind of is.
So there's points that show that it was on a lake?
Go back to those images again, please.
Look how crazy that looks.
One solid piece of granite.
Yeah, you see that dude at the bottom.
Zoom out so we can see the whole thing with him.
And where did that come from?
And so by New Kingdom, what year?
So even then, they're still doing spectacular stuff.
It's just not as sophisticated.
Can you go to some of those?
This is made out of that same impossibly hard stone.
And this exhibits that facial symmetry as well.
So your thoughts are that the Egyptians were imitating these ancient looks.
Especially when they become kings.
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.
And did they fall from earthquakes?
Is that the speculation?
It was a national project.
Well, it's one of those really amazing mysteries because the actual facts of it are so spectacular that it defies any conventional explanation to the point where it opens up people to the possibility that maybe we don't know.
Almost anyone listening to this, it's even remotely reasonable, that sees that goes, okay.
I think this picture is a lot bigger than we thought it was.
How would they even do it today?
Imagine the wooden boat and how hard those dudes are rowing.
Not only that, how deep is the water?
And when you're dealing with 150 tons, how far does it sink?
How much of a boat do you need?
Can you fit a boat that wide?
So someone somehow pulled that off.
Have you found anything on that, Jamie?
Once you get that, let's look at the unknown obelisk, too, so to give people a real French point.
The unfinished obelisk?
Yeah, the unfinished obelisk is how many feet?
The unfinished obelisk is how long?
And did they stop because it was cracked or did they not know?
You should use it, but that's not what happened.
Unless their technology was so sophisticated that what they wanted was very specific and they could just do it again.
Now, so these depictions of flamingos, was it possible to date the paint that they used?
Sorry, Jamie, scroll down a little bit.
Yeah, they're right there.
Also, someone's got to be underneath it when it finally cracks loose.
Very bizarre looking.
But those stones, is that an example of what they are trying to claim was used?
How long would that take?
So is that the unfinished obelisk?
And so where is that sucker cracked?
We don't know if it cracked after the fact either.
How did they know it was there?
It's quite plausible that there's more of that stuff out there.
That actually makes sense that they were used as some sort of a ball bearing.
But even so, even if that's the case, like how, what?
Well, how you're lifting it.
What are you doing to lift that obelisk out?
How many people are involved if it's just manual labor?
But what kind of conventional explanation is this?
They just gloss over it.
up any slopes you have to do all this ground preparation work to even attempt it and they move these things like a thousand kilometers if there's a place that you could go back in time and see that is it that is it yeah quarry would be a good one god if you could go back in time just to see construction just i guess quarry but i mean i mean how are you lifting things what are you doing what what do you what does your machinery look like you must have some
Some kind of technology that is just dust in the wind now.
Still pretty impressive.
It's interesting that using bronze spheres.
Whatever, metal spheres, which is very similar to what you're describing with the obelisk.
Something happened.
It's all so fascinating.
And something happened is actually the only answer we have.
Ben, you're awesome, man.
I really, really appreciate you coming on here.
Your channel, Uncharted X, fantastic channel.
So much good content.
How long have you been doing it now?
I've been doing it.
He was one of the first real guests.
That was just me and Duncan, that one.
That was when I was doing it at my house.
Well, I'm so happy that guys like you took that fucking baton and ran with it.
But I mean, my answer to all this is who's not?
I don't understand you if you're not interested in this.
How is this not unbelievably fascinating?
It's literally the most interesting thing about civilization.
That time period and the mysteries that are involved in trying to just decipher what happened.
It is the most fascinating time in history, I think.
Again, thank you so much.
We'll definitely do this again.
Especially if some more information comes out about the Labyrinth, and hopefully more people are also picking up the baton and more people get involved.
Definitely do it again.
Just because there was Jewish people and Palestinian people?
Right, but this is a psychedelic conference.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And they're worried about protests breaking out at psychedelic conferences?
Oh, well, is that really the way to do it?
So how did your journey from being a law enforcement professional to someone who's involved in psychedelics, how did that take place?
And this is all done through MAP, so it's all done in a clinical environment?
This episode is brought to you by Squarespace.
Fun fact, JoeRogan.com runs on Squarespace.
It's the go-to platform for creating websites that are as functional as they are good looking.
With their new design intelligence tool powered by 20 years of expertise and cutting edge AI, you can build a site that's uniquely yours in no time.
Just head on over to squarespace.com slash rogan for a free trial.
And when you're ready to launch, use the code rogan to get 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.
This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter.
The hiring process can be absurdly time consuming.
Like when you're looking for a new doctor, you spend hours searching.
When you finally feel like you found the right one, it turns out they're not accepting new patients.
The same thing happens when you're hiring.
You scan through hundreds of resumes.
You find one you like, only discover they aren't actively looking for a job.
Well, good news for all you hiring managers out there.
Your search looks a little less frustrating now thanks to ZipRecruiter.
And bonus, you can try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash Rogan.
ZipRecruiter has added new tools and features to help speed up the hiring process and save you valuable time.
They can easily connect you with qualified candidates in minutes.
They also have a wide pool of talent to choose from and it's continuously growing.
Over 320,000 resumes are added monthly so you can reach more potential hires.
Use ZipRecruiter and save time hiring.
Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day.
And if you go to ZipRecruiter.com slash Rogan right now, you can try it for free.
Again, that's ZipRecruiter.com slash Rogan.
Yeah, radical measures.
Well, because it's federally scheduled one.
It's supposed to have no medical use whatsoever and the most dangerous and addictive of compounds.
I think the problem is politically it's very difficult to say what you're saying if you are anyone who is running for office or anyone who's currently seeking re-election, right?
Because it carries with this taboo, this narrative that has existed since the 1970s that these are drugs that are ruining people's lives and it's going to waste – you're just going to waste away.
You're just escaping reality.
They're for weak people.
They're for losers and addicts.
It's a public narrative that's out there that unfortunately it's going to take a long time to turn that battleship around.
Well, the issue is that police officers experience trauma on a daily basis that most people can't even comprehend.
And it's not discussed.
All that's ever discussed with police officers is when a cop does something bad.
Yeah, it's an unspoken trauma.
It's an unspoken issue that
you know, was really exacerbated during this whole defund the police shit that was going on a few years back.
Then you've got the demoralization, you know, and the fact that these people, not only are they not appreciated, but then they've been all turned into villains.
Yeah, they were used as political pawns.
And, you know, openly, openly by politicians who are still in office.
It was pretty disgusting.
And just short-sighted and a complete lack of awareness of the difficulty of the job because –
If you're around cops, if you know cops, it is an insane job.
It's an insane job that you're asking people, just regular people, to go out and do on a daily basis.
So from your first introduction to this idea of psychedelic therapy.
how long before you actually experience it and how long before you actually help other people experience it?
So you find out about this, you bring it to the department.
Yeah, the red one's the one that lets you see reality.
Okay, so I'm flipping the colors.
Is that really what they said?
This episode is brought to you by Visible.
I want to let you in on something.
Your current wireless carrier does not want you to know about Visible because Visible is the ultimate wireless hack.
No confusing plans with surprise fees, no nonsense, just fast speeds, great coverage without the premium cost.
You get one line wireless with unlimited data powered by Verizon's network for $25 a month, taxes and fees included.
Seriously, $25 a month flat.
What you see is what you pay.
No hidden fees on top of that.
Join now and unlock unlimited data for just $25 a month on the Visible plan.
Don't think wireless can be so transparent, so Visible?
Switch today at visible.com slash rogan.
See visible.com for plan features and network management details.
Well, isn't there also an issue with doing double-blind placebo-controlled studies?
Because it's very clear whether or not you've taken the drug.
Because obviously MDMA has profound impacts on soldiers with PTSD.
The studies have already been very clear, and MAPS has done an amazing job in explaining all that.
But the problem is a perception issue.
And that this drug is also used by people who go to raves and wind up dying of heat exhaustion.
And people die because they hear they die of an overdose, which really they die of fentanyl poisoning because they're getting illegally sourced MDMA, which is probably not even really MDMA.
A lot of times it's amphetamines, and it's cut with fentanyl, and there's a lot of other shit in it, and they wind up dying of an overdose.
Well, the real barrier is the fact that it's illegal.
The problem is there is a demand.
And so when you have a demand and then you make it illegal for people to access, then what happens is outlaws step in and you get criminal organizations who sell it and they don't give a fuck about you.
And they're used to killing people.
They don't mind poisoning you and...
They don't mind if they're selling you something that's totally not what you're trying to get.
When you say you aren't allowed to, is it because it will hinder your career?
Well, I think we're in a very unique time now where the door is open.
And credit to Rick Perry, former Republican governor of Texas, who championed the Ibogaine initiative here.
And it's now become a thing.
They're going to start doing that, which is amazing and so beneficial for soldiers in particular, people with extreme PTSD and people that are suffering from severe drug addictions.
And they don't understand why.
And they're just they're just fucked.
A lot of soldiers and a lot of, you know, really traditionally right wing people are getting involved in psychedelics.
They're going to psychedelic retreats.
A lot of other soldiers that have had positive experiences and have gotten help are reaching out to their brothers and sisters, bringing them into these experiences.
So instead of this narrative that psychedelics are for hippies and losers with no discipline, now you've got some of the most disciplined human beings on earth who are seeking these things out for help.
And realizing that there is strength in seeking help.
It's not a weakness to take these things.
And these things are not drugs in the sense of something that allows you to escape reality.
They allow you to see reality through a completely different lens and that can heal you.
And this is not something that has been a narrative before.
This narrative is very recent.
This narrative, particularly among right-wing people, among conservative people, among disciplined people, hardworking, disciplined people.
Now they're realizing like this is a tool that's been denied us because of a corrupt government.
A corrupt government that was seeking to silence the civil rights movement and the anti-war movement in the 1970s.
That's in the 1960s.
This was what this was all about.
And we are still dealing with this shit 60 years later, which is really crazy.
It's so crazy because we know the facts now.
We know what started it.
We know who was involved.
We know the conversations that they had, why they did it in the first place.
And yet the public narrative is still the same.
The public narrative is still drug takers or undisciplined losers who are trying to escape reality.
And I don't want my kids doing drugs and that same shit that you hear over and over and over again.
I mean, that's the Eleusinian mysteries.
The Romans silenced that.
You go to Siberian shaman.
I mean, they were silenced by the powers that be in those days.
It's just always been the case where people that take things that allow them to understand the methods of control that are being inflicted upon them.
And how to escape that.
And then they get a bunch of other people that follow them and they don't want to listen to propaganda anymore.
And then people go, hey, this is a real problem.
What's the cause of this?
Oh, it's these fucking dudes go to Ulysses and they figure out life.
We got to put a fucking kibosh on that.
And then they spread all throughout the world to try to do it.
Because anyone who's a law enforcement officer that's arresting someone for weed, they know that they're not doing anything good.
It's a moral injury on the person that's actually being forced to enforce those laws.
Yeah, because you can't feel good about yourself.
You're arresting some guy who's got an ounce of weed, who's sitting at home with his wife, chilling.
And that went on for decades in this country.
Well, they're trying to go backwards in Texas.
The lieutenant governor is trying to go backwards and he's against the legalization.
And so they're trying to ban all THC products and-
It's not just inappropriate.
It's funded by the alcohol lobby.
And they know that they're losing people from drinking alcohol.
And it's not just a threat to pharma.
I mean, I'm sure you're aware of the original reason why it was outlawed.
William Randolph Hearst.
So William Randolph Hearst.
So if you go back to the 1930s when alcohol prohibition ended, you have a bunch of enforcement officers that aren't doing anything anymore.
Then you have William Randolph Hearst.
And then there's a machine, an invention called the decorticator.
And the decorticator allowed them to effectively process hemp fiber.
Hemp was always a very difficult plant to process.
And when Eli Whitney, was it Eli Whitney created the cotton gin?
Is that what it was?
I think that sounds right.
When they created the cotton gin, now cotton took over for hemp clothing.
So cannabis, hemp, the term cannabis, that was what canvas was.
So all paintings, the first draft, the Declaration of Independence was made on hemp paper.
It's a superior textile.
It's a superior paper.
You can take an acre of land that you're using to grow trees on that you process into paper, and it'll take you years and years to regrow the trees in order to have the same amount of paper in that area.
With hemp, it's instantaneous almost.
It grows very quickly, and within a few months, you have these plants again.
You harvest the stalks.
You run it through the decorticator.
So in 19-whatever it was, 1930-something, cover of Popular Science magazine, hemp the new billion-dollar crop because of this invention.
So this invention was going to – because hemp makes superior clothes.
I have a hemp jujitsu gi that I got from this company called Datsura.
It's fucking indestructible.
My cotton geese, they rip apart all the time.
They're good for a year or two and then they tear and you got to buy a new one or you just show up at class with a fucked up gee, which a lot of people do.
Hemp geese are way better.
They're just far superior.
Hemp paper, you grab it, you pull it, you tear it.
You're like, this is crazy.
It's so much stronger than regular paper.
It's a superior product.
So William Randolph Hearst, who didn't just own Hearst Publications, he didn't just own this news empire.
He also owned paper mills.
So he also owned forests that he was growing trees in.
He recognized this threat from this new industry.
And so to combat that threat, he starts putting out propaganda pieces.
And then they coined the term marijuana.
So marijuana was originally a term, a slang term for a wild Mexican tobacco.
It had nothing to do with cannabis.
Cannabis, which had been used for thousands of years, and hemp, which had been used for thousands of years.
So then they start printing these stories that blacks and Mexicans were taking this new drug and raping white women.
And then you have the reefer madness films and all these propaganda films that show young people taking a smoke of marijuana and losing their mind.
So people act quickly and they pass laws, not even knowing that they're outlawing hemp.
thinking that they're stopping this new drug because most people are unaware of it.
Clearly, this is a time before the internet, very difficult to access information and understand exactly what's going on.
So they hoodwinked the entire world.
So Harry Anslinger, William Randolph Hearst, they all conspired to stop a commodity.
And that's what hemp was.
It had nothing to do with the psychoactive form of THC.
It had everything to do with hemp as a commodity that was threatening to the businesses.
And to this day, you can make hemp crete.
It's a superior building material.
It's flame resistant.
You can build houses with it.
You can make clothes with it.
Hemp oil, hemp seeds, not only are they good for you, they contain all the amino acids.
It's a superior protein source.
It's like hemp protein powder is fantastic for you.
It's like really good stuff in so many different ways.
And they put the kibosh on that in the 1930s.
And that, 90 fucking years later, is still this anchor around our necks that we're carrying.
One asshole in the 1930s who didn't want to compete with hemp and had this incredible power because he owned the newspapers.
He started this all.
You ever seen that article?
Pull up that article, Hemp, the New Billion Dollar Crop, because it's wild to watch.
Because this machine, this decorticator, before that, it was brutal back-breaking work to take the hemp fiber and break it down because it's such a durable plant.
If you ever pick up a hemp stalk, a hemp stalk that would ... This is a mammoth tusk, but ...
But if you had a hemp stalk that was this size, it would be incredibly light like balsa wood, but hard like oak.
It's like an alien plant.
Yeah, it sounds amazing.
It's different than everything else.
The new billion-dollar crop.
American farmers are promised a new cash crop with an annual value of several hundred million dollars, all because of a machine that has been invented which can solve a problem more than 6,000 years old.
It is hemp, a crop that will compete with other American products.
Instead, it will displace imports of raw materials and manufactured products produced by underpaid producers.
What does that mean?
Cooley and peasant labor and will provide thousands of jobs for American workers throughout the land.
So that was the machine underneath it.
That's the decorticator.
And that's this new machine that they invented.
And this is what it's all about.
It has nothing to do with.
Marijuana was a real problem.
We were losing people.
No, people have been smoking marijuana and taking marijuana in edible form and the sadhus have been taking hashish.
People have been using it for thousands and thousands of years without problems.
You can abuse cheeseburgers too.
I was just going to say that.
Yeah, I don't think you should shut down Burger King.
You should be able to get a fucking cheeseburger if you want.
And there's a lot of things that people can abuse.
You can abuse every single thing.
You can abuse everything.
Human beings tend to abuse things.
That doesn't mean that they shouldn't be allowed to use it.
You can build a house with a hammer, or you can hit yourself in the dick if you're fucking crazy.
It doesn't mean we should outlaw hammers, right?
There is a use for these things, and it requires discipline.
And it requires an understanding of what the thing is.
Well, when you turn that thing into a Schedule I substance, when everybody knows that's not true, especially when you have a Schedule I substance that is illegal, when there's things like alcohol that are totally legal that I support, you should be able to drink.
I don't drink anymore.
But I feel like you should be able to drink.
I drank most of my life.
But it's not good for you.
But the point is we need freedom.
And you need the freedom to be able to explore these things and find out what's right for you and wrong for you.
And you need the freedom to be able to run studies and get accurate information in terms of dosages and side effects and what sort of –
Genetic issues that certain people might have that make them more inclined to be addicted to alcohol or addicted to cannabis or whatever their issue is, whether it's psychological or biological.
We need to have information to put a blockade on this in the form of prohibition.
And the fact that we're doing it in 2025 with all the information that we have available today, we have an abundance of information.
It's also one experience has an 80% success rate.
80% of the people don't go back to opiates.
With two experiences is in the high 90s.
You also have to make sense of it in a time where things are prescribed and you get them from a doctor that we absolutely know are addictive and highly damaging and kill people.
So make sense of it to me.
If there's something – cannabis is the easy one, right?
Because it doesn't kill anybody.
Literally doesn't kill anybody.
The LD50 rate for cannabis is fucking bananas.
It's not even physically possible to consume enough to kill you.
Same thing with psilocybin.
There's this research study.
You'd have to eat a mushroom the size of this fucking table.
You wouldn't physically be able to consume it.
That would be 50% of the population would die of an overdose from that.
And you wouldn't be able to consume it.
Physically, you wouldn't be able to fit it into your body enough to kill you.
Brazilian churches that are taking ayahuasca.
You have to make logical sense as to why you're imposing these laws and then imprisoning people and taking away their freedom for not listening to you.
Because you don't make any sense.
And here's another part of the problem.
A vast majority of the people that are
Pushing for these laws and want these people to be locked up have not had these experiences.
That's right And that's a part of the problem.
Don't know what they're talking about.
They don't know what these experiences are.
That's right These drugs are gonna ruin your mind.
Are you fucking sure?
Because I don't think they are.
I don't think you're correct.
I think they open your mind up to new possibilities and expand your consciousness in a way that I don't think is available without them.
For talking about something.
And losing their career because most people are ignorant of it.
And the only way that that's going to change is you and I and other people to continue to have these public conversations where more people hear it.
And I guarantee you there's people listening to this right now that have never heard this before, never considered this before.
Do I have these deep held beliefs that are completely ignorant?
And why do I have these beliefs?
Why do I have this in my mind as this is what this stuff is?
And there's a lot of people out there that are stone cold, sober, disciplined people think that's the only way.
Well, the more possibilities there are for creativity, the more possibilities there are for people to rethink their lives, get on a better path.
There's a lot that people are missing just because you've been hoodwinked and you've been led into this false narrative.
There's a problem with the term drugs.
Because just I hear drug, I hear drugged.
I hear someone is all fucked up and doesn't know what's going on.
How are you putting all these things under the same blanket, including nicotine and caffeine and things that people use on a daily basis?
These are all drugs.
And then you have cannabis in there and you also have methamphetamine in that category.
How do you have cannabis and methamphetamine in the same thing?
How do you have psilocybin and heroin in the same group of things?
How do you have industrial opiates?
There is evidence that like loneliness is like worse than cigarette smoking.
It really makes you wonder what would the world look like had they not placed that sweeping psychedelic act of 1970 and then imposed those standards on most of the rest of the world as well.
What would the world look like?
It would be radically different.
I believe that it would be radically different.
Well, this is what they were scared of.
The difference between the 1950s and the 1960s culturally is clear.
It's evident in everything.
It's evident in the music.
It's evident in the artwork, the films.
It's evident in the cars, the design of the automobiles.
And it changed because the culture was accepting psychedelics.
It was a big part of it.
It was LSD and psilocybin and marijuana and all these different things these people were experimenting with.
And then out of that, you get Jimi Hendrix.
You know, you get this wild new form of expression that was radically different than music that appeared before that.
This episode is brought to you by Visible.
I want to let you in on something.
Your current wireless carrier does not want you to know about Visible because Visible is the ultimate wireless hack.
No confusing plans with surprise fees, no nonsense, just fast speeds, great coverage without the premium cost.
With Visible, you get one line wireless with
Unlimited data powered by Verizon's network for $25 a month, taxes and fees included.
Seriously, $25 a month flat.
What you see is what you pay.
No hidden fees on top of that.
Join now and unlock unlimited data for just $25 a month on the Visible plan.
Don't think wireless can be so transparent, so Visible?
Switch today at visible.com slash rogan.
See visible.com for plan features and network management details.
This episode is brought to you by The Farmer's Dog.
And what does it look like?
Real meat and vegetables that are gently cooked to retain vital nutrients and help avoid any of the bad stuff that comes with ultra processing.
And it's not just random ingredients thrown together.
Their food is formulated by on staff board certified vet nutritionists.
These people are experts on dog nutrition, and they're all in on fresh food.
The farmer's dog also does something unique.
They portion out the food to your dog's nutritional needs.
This ensures that you don't overfeed them, making weight management easy.
Research shows that dogs kept at a healthy weight can live up to two and a half years longer.
Head to thefarmersdog.com slash rogan to get 50% off your first box, plus free shipping.
This offer is for new customers only.
Progress is being made.
I mean it happens at a snail's pace and it happens through backbreaking labor from people like you and Paul Stamets and Rick Doblin and so many more who are doing the Lord's work literally.
But this is – it's just a frustrating thing for a lot of people that know the truth behind this, that how many people it can help and then how many people who are being damaged by these unfair, unjust, immoral and illogical laws.
Well, the algorithm is based on your interaction.
And unfortunately, people tend to lean towards those things.
The algorithm is not evil.
The problem is human beings can be easily manipulated by their own ideas and these ideas that they have and this inclination to pay more attention to things that outrage you.
Things that cause rage and fear and distrust.
Unfortunately, things that you hate, those are the things you pay attention to the most.
But the problem is cops deal with the very small percentage of people that aren't.
And to require officers to be able to escape that and have objectivity is crazy.
Through what mechanism of the human mind allows you to ignore all the evidence that you see on a daily basis?
Yeah, it's a dark predicament because there's a lot of people that are going to fall victim before anything gets changed.
And the cost of human life.
Which is compounded every year.
And all the people they interact with, the butterfly effect of that.
It's really crazy when you think about it that one president and one administration changed the course of civilization because they wanted control and they wanted to stop the anti-war movement and the civil rights movement.
And that's the fact.
Well, it's what happens when people – once people have laws and they enforce those laws and someone comes along and says those laws are unjust, it's very difficult to get back rights that you've already lost.
Once they're lost, like – and this is like what's really obvious about the 1970s Schedule I Act.
Because it's like we're dealing with the same issue all these years later, but it's not the 1970s, right?
So we have all the access to the data now instantaneously.
You can pull it up on chat GPT.
You know, like right now, instantaneously.
So there's no excuse for it.
But yet it's still difficult to get these laws changed.
It takes so much time.
Yeah, that's what it should be.
Well, I think the big thing is public perception.
Public perception moves all those other things because then people will contact politicians and respond by not voting for them or voting people out that do have – like this lieutenant governor.
He's politically in deep water.
Because so many people have reacted so negatively to this draconian attempt to ban all THC products where people are like, why?
Like, what are you doing?
And what are you being paid by?
Like, what lobbies are enforcing this idea?
Like, where is this coming from?
So it's going to weaken his position.
Well, it's going to weaken his career and rightly so.
He's on the wrong side of history.
And the public perception has changed.
It's changed pretty radically.
And I credit the Internet with that because over the last 20 years, you've seen this massive shift in this idea that psychedelics are dangerous.
You could lose your mind to, hey, that's how my uncle quit smoking.
You know, hey, that's how my aunt got off of opiates.
Hey, that's, you know, and everyone knows somebody that's had positive experiences that was, you know, deeply depressed and now is a different person.
And they're so much happier and healthier because of it.
And so it's the narrative publicly has shifted.
And a lot of it is because of conversations.
And a lot of it is because of podcasts.
A lot of it is access to information.
There's plenty of online documentaries about it now.
And having the courage.
Well, especially if you're in a business like yourself, like law enforcement, you know, where it's like that's a forbidden topic.
Well, it's been going on for quite a bit, right?
I mean, I know people in Los Angeles were doing it a decade ago.
I knew of a guy who had a problem with it.
He was an MMA fighter.
He got addicted to ketamine.
And I remember a friend of mine went to visit him in a rehab center, and he was all fucked up.
But that was the narrative, that he was doing ketamine.
I was like, oh, he's doing a tranquilizer?
This was 1990s, late 90s.
I know a lot of people in the Austin area use it recreationally.
We actually had a girl go into a K-hole at my club.
She was in the middle of the comedy club just – Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So you could kind of double pump and go a little overboard.
Do it all day long if you want.
That's a problem with – well, that's a problem with everything, right?
It's a problem with any – I mean –
If you really need Adderall, you have like chronic fatigue and Adderall is the only thing that lifts you out of that.
What's to stop you from taking two pills?
Oh, I know a lot of people are addicted.
I mean, I'm kind of addicted to caffeine.
I quit it when I was on my vacation.
I was on vacation for 10 days and I didn't have any coffee, any caffeine at all for five, six days.
And I was like, ooh, I sleep so much better.
I feel so much better.
But I feel like when it comes to conversations, it's like I lean on it.
I lean on it to get me going.
I just wanted to know that I could stop taking it and there wouldn't be any problem.
It was no problem at all.
I stopped taking nicotine pouches and I stopped taking caffeine for... I stopped the nicotine pouches for 10 whole days.
And I was like, I'm fine.
And I stopped the caffeine for five or six days.
Then I said, ah, I feel like having a cup of coffee.
And I limited myself to one cup a day.
Yeah, I don't think it's overall detrimental.
I don't think it affects your judgment.
I don't think it makes you do anything squirrely.
It just gives you a little, it peps you up a little bit.
But this is also the argument for coca leaves because coca leaves apparently is a superior stimulant.
It's just they chew it and they chew coca leaves and this is something that farmers and hardworking people in South America have been doing forever.
And unfortunately, somebody figured out how to synthesize it and turn it into cocaine and then it became illegal.
Now you can't get – because if you get just coca leaves and just chew on coca leaves in America, I mean maybe that's superior to coffee.
Yeah, there's medical uses for it.
Cocaine's not on Schedule 1?
Yeah, numbing agent.
Well, I know there's medical cocaine.
I just don't know what the applications are.
You know the number one manufacturer of it?
They still use the coca leaf for flavor for Coca-Cola.
And they use it to produce medical grade cocaine.
The flavor is what's in Coke.
I guess it's the flavonoids.
That's what's in Coca-Cola.
And it used to be cocaine was in Coca-Cola.
I would like to go back and try some of that.
I like to go like, what was that like?
Like how much cocaine was in there?
What year did they, let's find out what year they took cocaine out of Coca-Cola.
Because I remember the whole story for – I don't remember exactly the details of like how cocaine was in Coca-Cola for the first place.
But cocaine used to be prescribed.
So in 1903, fresh coca leaves were removed from the formula.
After 1904, instead of using fresh coca leaves, Coca-Cola started using spent leaves, the leftovers of the cocaine extraction process with trace levels of cocaine.
And since then, by 1929, they've used cocaine-free.
So in 1903, they started removing cocaine.
And they're the only company, I believe, that's allowed to do that.
I think they're grandfathered in.
And who invented Coca-Cola with cocaine?
What is the story of cocaine in Coca-Cola?
Pemberton called for five ounces of coca leaf per gallon of syrup, a significant dose.
In 1891, Candler claimed his formula altered extensively from Pemberton's originally contained only a tenth of this amount.
So it used to be really juicy.
Coca-Cola once contained an estimated nine milligrams of cocaine per glass.
For comparison, a typical dose or a line of cocaine is 50 to 75 milligrams.
So it was like a mild pick-me-up.
After 1904, instead of using fresh leaves, Coca-Cola started using spent leaves.
Today, that extract is prepared...
at a Stepan Company plant in Maywood, New Jersey, the only manufacturing plant authorized by the federal government to import and process coca leaves, which it obtains from Peru and Bolivia.
Stepan Company extracts cocaine from the leaves, which it sells to Malincroft, the only company in the United States licensed to purify cocaine for medical use.
A valuable brain tonic.
A cure for all nervous afflictions.
Sick, headache, neurologica, whatever that is, hysteria, melancholy, et cetera.
The peculiar flavor of Coca-Cola delights every palate.
It is dispensed from the soda fountains in the same manner as any of the fruit syrups.
I'd like to go back and try that.
I'd like to go back to 1900 and get a glass and see what's up.
Yeah, what was that?
Long after the syrup ceased to contain any significant amounts of cocaine in North Carolina, dope remained a common colloquialism for Coca-Cola, and dope wagons were trucks that transported it.
It must have been real good.
It must have been real good.
Like just a little bit of a juice.
Cola nuts for caffeine.
Cola nut acts as a flavoring in the original source of caffeine in Coca-Cola.
It contains 2% to 3.5% caffeine and has a bitter flavor.
government sued the United States versus 40 barrels and 20 kegs of Coca-Cola, hoping to force the Coca-Cola company to remove caffeine from its formula.
adding caffeine to the list of habit-forming and deleterious substances, which must be listed on a product's label.
In 1913, the case was appealed by the Sixth Circuit in Cincinnati, where the ruling was affirmed, but then appealed again in 1916 to the Supreme Court, where the government effectively won as a new trial was ordered.
The company then voluntarily reduced the amount of caffeine in its product.
And offered to pay the government's legal costs to settle and avoid further litigation.
But what is a Red Bull?
So let's find out how much caffeine is in a Monster.
One of the things that Monster, I don't know if Monster does it, but some of these companies do it.
It's kind of tricky.
By the way, I like Monster.
I drink them all the time when I do the UFC.
The problem is it'll say, like, two servings.
Who's splitting a Monster with their friends?
It's like, I'm going to drink half.
And how many servings are in a can of Monster?
Well, this just says per serving.
Does it say it in a can?
Like when you get a big old can.
Because they have big cans.
I had a friend who was a Mormon and he wasn't allowed to drink coffee.
And that motherfucker would pound energy drinks all day.
I was like, hey, dude, what are you doing?
A monster is, oh my god, 140 for zero sugar.
A regular monster has 160.
Mountain Dew Rise has 180.
Five-hour energy shots as 200?
Those little tiny energy shots, those five-hour energy drinks as 200 milligrams of caffeine?
Well, it's like people have always tried to control other people for whatever reason, especially when the government has the power to do it.
For whatever reason, human beings really enjoy controlling other people.
And once they have power, they really enjoy exercising that power.
You've got to resist.
But the problem is legalizing these things would cause a big problem.
It would be a big problem.
If you just legalize them, there's a lot of people who would never try any illegal drug who would try a legal drug.
If you made heroin, cocaine, fill in the blank, all the different –
substances, psychedelic and otherwise, if you made them all legal, you're going to have a bunch of people that are going to have problems with these things that wouldn't have problems with them normally.
So there would be a period of time where it would cause damage.
And that would be really problematic for politicians, lawmakers, anybody who enforced these ideas.
There'd be blood is on your hands.
Infantilization of human beings like turning them into babies that maybe need to be controlled by the state That's the problem and we're in this problem and the only way to get out of that problem is to tear the fucking band-aid off And I completely agree with you and I don't want to do cocaine I've never done cocaine my whole life I saw when I was a kid in high school I saw a bunch of people that had cocaine problems and I was like I don't want to have anything to do with that right and
I don't think it's that addictive when you're just chewing the leaves.
I think those people do it without much problems.
There's also mate de cocoa, which is a tea that they make from the leaves.
But the problem is even with decriminalization, what's the supply?
Where are people getting it from?
If you can't sell it legally, then how do I know it's pure?
That's the real issue.
The real issue with cocaine is probably not cocaine itself.
The real issue is getting cocaine that's stepped on and cut.
And cut a lot of times with fentanyl.
I mean, we all know people that have died from fentanyl overdoses.
I know a bunch of people that have.
Look, when we were kids, the cartels weren't an issue.
I grew up in Chelsea, Mass.
I grew up in Newton.
I didn't ever hear about cartels.
You never heard about Mexican cartels.
You never heard about the problem.
Now it's like all over the news.
Why is it a big thing?
Because they control the drug supply into the United States because drugs are illegal.
So only outlaws sell drugs.
Just like during Prohibition when the mob took over.
That's how they gained power.
That's how they got money.
They were selling alcohol.
I know you're getting actual real alcohol.
And I think education, what you just said, is a huge part of it.
And to let people understand like, hey, everyone knows there's giant problems with alcohol use.
There's alcoholism, there's liver failure, there's a host of different diseases that come from being an alcoholic.
And then there's also operating motor vehicles when you're drunk and drunk driving kills a ton of people every year.
And also a bunch of violent acts that get...
perpetrated by people that are drunk.
There's a lot of things wrong with alcohol, but yet we allow alcohol.
You know, and alcohol is one of the worst drugs.
It's one of the worst drugs for you physically.
It's one of the only drugs that if you become addicted to it, you can't quit cold turkey or you'll fucking die.
Well, I think the mushroom one is the easiest one because of the fact that it genuinely can't kill people.
Cocaine is a lot harder sell because also like I don't necessarily think it's good for you.
But I know people that have done pure cocaine that really enjoyed the experience and didn't get addicted to it.
So I don't I don't I can't speak on that.
I just think that things that are physically addictive that have been known to ruin your life are things you should probably avoid.
Well, cigarette smoking in particular.
Because the problem isn't really the nicotine, which we've found to be.
Yeah, it's like nicotine actually has health benefits to it, which sounds crazy to people.
It's a neuroprotectant.
It actually stopped people from getting COVID.
So there's a lot of weird stuff with the compound nicotine.
But then there's the delivery method.
And it's not even just like...
It's hard to know what's true or what's not true, but I'm sure you saw that Russell Crowe movie, The Insider.
It's a great movie, but it's about these companies that added chemicals to cigarettes to make them far more addictive.
And he was a whistleblower.
He was a chemist that was working at this company.
Russell Crowe was playing this doctor who was a real guy whose life was threatened because he exposed that these companies had put a bunch of different chemicals into cigarettes to make them highly addictive, much more addictive than just plain regular tobacco smoking.
Well, that's the problem is that the companies that were getting sued, after it was determined that cigarette smoking does cause cancer, cigarettes are addictive, once they lost a bunch of money, they went out and bought all the processed food companies.
And now they made those more addictive.
And so now, like, you know, they even openly flaunted, I bet you can't eat one chip.
I mean, that's the thing.
And again, I think you should be able to eat Doritos.
Nothing wrong with them.
But they are addictive.
And why are they addictive?
Because they're chemically designed to be addictive.
Because these food manufacturing companies want you to buy more of them.
It's like, how do we get people to eat more chips?
Make the chips impossible to put down or very difficult to put down.
You're going to get fentanyl potato chips.
Imagine if they outlawed all processed foods and you had to get fucking contraband Twinkies.
I think you should be able to buy ringdings.
They should be legal.
But I wouldn't recommend eating them every day.
They're fucking terrible for you.
But they taste delicious.
And if you want one every now and again.
And that's the problem.
It's illogical and there's also this fear aspect to it because if you go against it, you're going to get put into a very bad position where there's people with enormous power and influence that want to silence you.
And this is why guys like Rick Doblin are so courageous.
Because he spent his entire life trying to do this the right way.
And doing it above board, by the books, and show through use with police officers and military people and people experiencing PTSD.
Look, this has extreme beneficial aspects to it that you shouldn't ignore.
And they're good for society.
And we should probably expand the use of them
In an appropriate way.
The results were too good.
So what do you what kind of pressure do you think they're under to not allow these things?
Like, because that's the question.
Is it public social pressure?
Because if they do pass this, then they'll be scrutinized and people that are ignorant and that have bought into the narrative will then look at them as like you're a part of the problem.
contributing to the deterioration of society, by allowing this use of MDMA to push forward and by minimizing the risks of it, by talking about the benefits of it, you're essentially allowing people to think that it's a lot safer than it really is.
Especially when you deal with things like there's a giant business in keeping people, I don't want to say happy, but not depressed.
Like there's a giant industry in people that are on SSRIs and antidepressant and anti-anxiety medication.
When it's been proven that exercise is far more effective than SSRIs are.
Far more medically proven, statistically proven that SSRIs are not as effective as regular exercise.
Well, exercise is definitely a medicine.
They should be able to.
Yeah, they really should.
But the problem is there's no profit in that.
This episode is brought to you by The Smashing Machine from A24.
Dwayne The Rock Johnson and Academy Award nominee Emily Blunt star in The Smashing Machine in theaters everywhere October 3rd.
The new film from writer-director Benny Safdie about pioneering UFC fighter Mark Kerr is both...
high-pressure sports biography and high-octane emotional spectacle, transporting viewers to the dawn of a new era as it follows the strongest fighter the sport had ever seen from the heights of fame to rock bottom and back again.
Watch The Smashing Machine in theaters everywhere October 3rd.
This episode is brought to you by Paramount+.
Sylvester Stallone is back as the ultimate kingpin Dwight Manfredi in the original hit series Tulsa King, now streaming exclusively on Paramount+.
This season, as Dwight's kingdom expands, his enemies close in.
Now he faces his most dangerous adversaries in Tulsa yet, forcing him to fight to protect his empire.
Watch the new season of Tulsa King, now streaming exclusively on Paramount+.
Learn more at ParamountPlus.com.
Have you ever heard of John Marco Allegro's book, The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross?
It's a book that he wrote after he was one of the people that was contracted to decipher the Dead Sea Scrolls.
It was like a 14-year job where they were deciphering the Dead Sea Scrolls.
And he was the only one on the committee that was agnostic.
He was an ordained minister, but through his studying of theology—
He started becoming agnostic because he recognized that there's just too many religions and too many parallels and like what's the real religion and root of this all or origin rather and root of this all.
So he wrote this book after 14 years where he – I'm going to sort of paraphrase but –
He thought that the entire Christian religion was based on the consumption of psychedelic mushrooms and fertility rituals and that this was what it was all about.
And I believe the book – because I've said this before, but I need to know it's true.
Was the book bought up by the Catholic Church?
I think it was bought up by the Catholic Church.
And they stopped production of it.
And then he released a new book called The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Christian Myth.
And that one was available.
But then since then, they've republished... Both of them?
But the big one was The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross because that was the one that was kind of very difficult to get.
And I have a couple copies of it, but they're original copies that I had to buy online.
It's a fascinating book because he translates or he...
He breaks down the word Christ to an ancient Sumerian word, which was a mushroom covered in God's semen.
And this is what he's saying, is that they thought that when it rained...
that this was God, his semen on the earth, which has caused all life to rise from.
And then plants, of course, need water.
And then after rainfall, they would find these mushrooms, because mushrooms grow incredibly quickly.
And they would consume these mushrooms and have these religious experiences.
And this was a hugely controversial book, of course.
To really be able to know if he's right or wrong, you would have to have a deep understanding of ancient languages and the Bible and so many different things.
Well, it's all a mystery, right?
We've become accustomed to the mystery, so it seems normal.
But if you didn't exist on Earth and Earth was a drug that you could take where you could experience life on Earth, you'd be like, this is crazy.
Being a human being, interacting with people, looking at things through your eyes.
Hearing things through your ears, touching and feeling, smelling and using all your senses and navigating through this bizarre experience of life.
Which makes you think, like, if you were an ancient person and you had this experience, of course you would think you're communing with God.
Well, we are ancient.
And, you know, if you go 5000 years from now, how they're going to look at us like these dorks.
God, isn't that a crazy thing that if you asked a person, is it possible in your lifetime for war to not exist?
Most people would like that.
Because in small groups, it's clearly easy.
Like if it was just you, me, and Jamie, and we were the only people on earth, it would be super easy to not go to war with each other.
We would just communicate.
But then you're dealing with different languages and control of resources, and then you have people that are leaders that have control over giant groups of people and then use propaganda.
Yeah, and manipulate them into thinking that the only way is we have to go over there and kill these people.
That's the only way to fight for your freedom.
There's a few moments in history.
yeah right well there was probably so few people they had to yeah that's right well this this is the also the point of allegro's work that fertility rituals were important because people didn't really survive much you know it was very difficult child just labor just childbirth killed a lot of women killed a lot of babies infections killed a lot of people you break your leg you're dead there's a lot of things that cause people to die so it was very important
To have as many children as possible because most of them weren't going to live.
The most critical of all processes.
And that's been reduced to a thing now that's like trivialized.
I mean, there's people out there that love people that don't want to have children.
I'm like, okay, well, I wouldn't want to bring a child into this world.
Like, yeah, why would you with all the books and medicine and shit?
Like people had people, people gave birth when they didn't know what a door was.
They hadn't figured out floors yet.
You know, it's like,
We're constantly in this process of evolving and changing and growing, but it just gets stifled by so many different aspects of civilization, so many different aspects of control and propaganda and manipulation and fear and the fear of others.
And hopefully if you live to be 80 or 90 years old, you'll be wiser.
But, you know, some people, they're 80 years old, they just watch Fox News and yell at the TV.
The amount of negative interactions that people have are incredibly small.
I mean, think about the sheer number of humans.
We concentrate on the fear.
We concentrate on the dangers.
And that is the problem with the algorithm.
That's the problem with social media and that's the problem with this addiction to devices that you are constantly being inundated with the negative.
You're constantly interacting with the worst aspects of life on earth and not appreciating all the good that's around you all the time.
You certainly can do that if you curate a good feed.
And you can ignore the negative.
And there's a lot of great stuff.
One of the great things about social media is just the access to new and fascinating information.
You're constantly...
If you do follow the right people and do go down the right roads, you'll be constantly inundated with fascinating information.
New discoveries, the James Webb telescope and new things that people are learning about quantum physics and all these different fascinating things that can enrich your mind.
And expand your understanding of the world that we live in instead of dwelling on all the negative aspects of human civilization.
And the jump also is what you were talking about before with education.
And I think we need an education, too, with people in social media use.
People need to be kind of coached and understand how to use it, how to use it correctly.
And, you know, I've been trying to express to as many people as I can, especially people in the public eye, don't read comments.
You got to stop doing that.
Don't read things about you.
Don't read negative things about you.
And also you're dealing with the percentage of people that are commenting negative things.
Those people almost entirely live lives that you would not envy.
They're almost all a mess.
And so you're interacting with the, I don't want to say the worst aspects of society, but the most troubled people.
human beings, the people that are thinking in the most ridiculous way.
They're constantly focusing on negative aspects of either human beings or of society in general, and they're feeding off of it.
And that's their focus all day long.
And they spend most of their time arguing with people online.
Do you want to be involved in that?
When we live in what is primarily a beautiful world.
As a therapist, how have you incorporated this in everyday life with your patients?
I think one of the best arguments against decriminalization is what happened with Portland.
So, you know, they went down this path.
It was Portland, right?
It wasn't Seattle that went down this path of pure legalization.
And it went sideways.
And I think it was probably because the culture that had already been firmly established in that place
They condoned open-air drug markets, people that were addicted to fentanyl and opiates out on the street and methamphetamines out on the street, using them constantly, no education.
And then they just sort of opened the doors for everything.
And then people went there specifically because they could do these things.
And also be subsidized.
But when you've already got people openly camping out on the streets and littering everywhere and like what they've already allowed, unfortunately, they need to clean that up first before they can say we're going to decriminalize everything.
Because you've already allowed people to do something that –
you know, publicly is frowned upon to just like be shitting on the street and to, you know, open drug use everywhere.
Have people camped out, homeless people like covering up sidewalks where you can't get around and there's needles everywhere and it's like garbage everywhere.
But they're not doing anything about that.
Like has any state ever incorporated some sort of successful program where they gave people safe supply and then counseling and got like a percentage of them off drugs and healthy?
When you also can't impose it on all the rest of society by allowing people to just camp out everywhere on the streets.
But that would require like a fundamental shift to progressive ideology.
They'd have to like change the way they view cops.
Well, that's hopeful.
You've got to expand something like that.
So it's the way it's approached.
It's the way these problems are approached and that they need new solutions, solutions that are preventative and that enforce the sense of community and help law enforcement officers ingratiate themselves with these people and be a part of the community instead of just being a person who comes to lock them up.
That might be a good way to end this.
Tell people how they can get a hold of you, social media, like where you are.
Spell their last name because they're not going to be able to get that right.
Okay, good luck with the amount of emails you're going to get after this.
Give me some time to get back to you.
Well, thanks, brother.
I appreciate your perspective, the fact that you're willing to express it the way you do, and that you're willing to come on here and stick your neck out like this.
Thank you very much.