Bishop Robert Barron

The standard line everyone's using here is he's the least American of the American Cardinals, which could be one reason why he attracted the super majority that he did. So I hope it's good for our church in America. I hope it revives a sense of the church and the faith in America. But I suspect, Ben, in the long run, people will look at him. They'll look at, okay, what is he saying?

What is he doing? Will matter much more than where he was born.

Yeah, I think that's true. You know, he's a man that worked in Latin America much of his priesthood. So he has a natural, I think, sympathy for, empathy for people who've immigrated to this country, to our country. So I think you're sensing that natural sympathy he has for them. I would suspect that he fully knows Catholic social teaching defends a nation's right to maintain its borders.

That's part of our social teaching because, as you well know, if we don't monitor our borders, that leads to all kinds of moral problems. That's not a xenophobic position, or that's not some jingoistic, nationalistic position. That's a considered moral point of view. So, I mean, I'm sure the new pope would affirm that.

You know, it's when you get down to brass tacks, you get down to the specifics of policy, we can disagree about, okay, how much should you regulate immigration, et cetera. But in terms of the great principles, I don't think he would disagree with that. The famous Ordo Amoris question, you know, as I read J.D.

Vance, he was just citing both Augustine, by the way, so this new pope was an Augustinian priest. He was citing Augustine and Thomas Aquinas. I think what people tend to miss on that is they're talking about the kind of objective dimension of love, not the subjective. To say there's an order of love does not mean that subjectively I favor certain people and others I don't care about.

It's not that at all. If to love means to will the good of the other, well, there's only so much that an individual or a nation can do. So the best example is if your family is under attack, Well, yes, you're going to defend them first. If there's a fire going on in your neighborhood and your house is on fire threatening your family, that's your first obligation.

That, to me, is all the Ordo Amoris is saying. And we've kind of made it into into this sort of co-celeb or this, you know, point of controversy. So I don't know. I think if they got into a room with J.D. Vance and the Pope, I have a feeling they would probably pretty much agree on these things.

God bless you, Ben. Thanks.

Thanks, Ben. Always good to be with you.

It was extraordinary. There was a lot of, you know, kind of tension beforehand. It's always, you're sort of on tenterhooks during a conclave period, the interregnum, and we weren't sure. A lot of names were being bandied about, including the name of Robert Prevost, though most of us didn't take it seriously. And then I think leading up to the conclave, there was just a lot of

anticipation, a sense of forces jockeying against each other. The announcement itself was amazing. It came so quickly. Most of us thought this would be a longer conclave that might last into the third, even fourth day. And on the second day, we have the white smoke. And so most of us again thought, oh, it must be someone like Cardinal Parolin or one of the really expected candidates.

No one expected Robert Prevost, and certainly not on the fourth ballot. So there was a lot of I think both excitement, surprise, the wonderment about it.

Well, you know, I would look at him in terms of his name. I keep going back to his name, Leo XIV. It's very telling. You know, he could have chosen Francis II, obviously. He could have chosen John Paul III. He could have chosen John XXIV, in which case we would say, oh, he's clearly on this side or that side. Choosing Leo XIV is very interesting. Going back now to a figure more than a century ago,

who represents, I call it, an intelligent, creative engagement with modernity. So think of the 18th century revolutions and then the 19th century innovations in philosophy. Think of Kant, Hegel, Marx, the revolutions, etc. The church's first response to that was an emphatic no, and indeed the church was very persecuted by revolutionary France, for example.

As this is happening, our son turned to some substance abuse.

But then by the end of the 19th century, you've got a figure like Leo XIII, who represents this intelligent engagement. It's both a yes and a no to modernity. I think that's what this new pope was gesturing toward in choosing that name, that he was in the tradition of Leo XIII. You know, and conservative Catholics, to this day, find a lot in Leo XIII they like.

Liberal Catholics find a lot they like in him. So it was a very clever choice, actually. Even before you get to particular kind of political issues, just the general attitude toward the modern world, he was telling us a lot about that.

You know, I think in the long run, it probably doesn't make that much difference. Maybe we're all kind of hyped up about it now because it's never happened before. This is a very international character, too. You know, he's from Chicago indeed, but, you know, studied overseas, has been a missionary overseas, spent many years here in Rome. He's a very international sort of player.

Do you think that Christian persecution is on the rise?

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Protect yourself before it's too late. Identityguard.com slash Tucker. I think many people think of prayer as a list of requests.

I've noticed in the past few years, people I know who are secular or have always been suddenly talking about the existence of evil in the world. I think it's very clear to non-religious people even that there's some kind of supernatural force of darkness like a foot in the world. I don't think you really need to make that case anymore that that's real. How do you see God in the world?

Because if you spend your life staring at evil, probably not productive.

I may be too shallow for Catholic theology, but I love what you're saying. Yeah, but that's as old as— Being and good are convertible terms.

It seems like the threat, maybe the satanic threat, is distraction.

So if you could distract people sufficient that they never had the time or the inclination to notice things that are real, you would trap them in a kind of hell.

And what happens to them?

Do you think that that's driving some of the disassociation and agony that we see around us? Yeah, it's not helping at all.

How do you force yourself to notice things beyond yourself? Like what is your actual discipline? Like you wake up, how do you keep God ever present in mind and yourself at bay?

You pray your office.

Yes.

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I don't think you're fully on board with Darwinism. I'm getting that sense.

So the questions end at a certain point and there's an answer. So the question is, well, who created materialism? the Creator, and the answer is nobody. The Creator is.

Would also suggest that God's like right here, right now, not always.

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One of the reasons I think Christianity is true is because so many people hate it. Yeah. And Jesus is really the great dividing, the great divider. Yeah. And like, why would you be mad at Jesus or Christianity when it's like a nonviolent religion that teaches people to love each other? If you're mad at that, it says something about how real it is, I think. Yeah.

Deify our autonomy. So you're speaking as if autonomy and choice are the same thing or closely related.

Through him all things were made.

If that's who he is, well, game's over. But why does it make people mad? I mean, one of the late life revelations is, in my life, has been that these great spasms of violence, these revolutions that we studied, French Revolution, Spanish Civil War, Bolshevik Revolution, 1917, huge parts of World War II, were anti-Christian. The point was to murder Christians. But it's not recorded that way.

The Catholic Church got super liberal. And then all of a sudden, everywhere you look, people you know are converting to Catholicism with a pretty kind of traditionally Christian orientation.

By the way, if I'm trying to create a new religion, he's not the hero I'm creating at all.

Facts suppressed. That is intentionally suppressed. Again, I was like 45 before I realized the Bolshevik revolution was aimed at Christians. I don't know why I didn't get that, but I didn't. Yeah.

What do you think that was? Why the 20th century? Well, you could do— So much darker than anything that happened in the Dark Ages.

I interrupted you. I'm so sorry. You said Pope Leo XIII had, can you explain what you mean he had this sense?

I couldn't agree more. I've come to this conclusion recently, but I think you're exactly right. So what's the St. Michael's prayer that was... St.

And Pope Leo said, the 13th said, I think this century is going to be done.

Because, I mean, 1903 was a period of great hope in the West. Yes.

So Vatican II is a direct response to the Second World War.

Do you think that the sex abuse was a result of Vatican II?

What were the changes wrought by Vatican II? There was famously the change in language of the mass from Latin to colloquial. But I learned recently that there were what seemed like theological changes to church doctrine.

the church seems to be readjusting in a new direction now. Is that fair? With Pope Leo, you mean? Well, that just happened. No, but I mean, well, I'll just be totally blunt. So the Catholic Church got in American political terms, which are a pretty limited way to describe it, but got super liberal. The Jesuits, the Mary Knowles, pretty liberal is my non-Catholic perspective.

And then all of a sudden, everywhere you look, people you know are converting to Catholicism with a pretty kind of traditionally Christian orientation. Is that real, do you think?

Why? That's such an interesting, it's kind of the last impulse you would think in someone who's devoted his life to, you know, being a member of the clergy.

No, right, right. Totally eliminated mainstream Protestantism with these ideas.

As if you can have a religion within the limits of reason. Right. So funny.

Yeah.

And again, it completely destroyed American Protestantism.

Literally the roof. I mean, the physical ruins, like the roof has fallen and no one's going.

Yeah.

Yes.

You often hear, and it's accepted uncritically, or was when I was a kid anyway, that religion, Christianity leads to violence. Right. You know, and that was really the driver. I mean, Hitchens, who I knew well, that was his main argument. People get, you know, inflexible when they believe in the supernatural and they have to kill anyone who disagrees. But does the historical record support that?

is not to more violence it's to respond with forgiving love that's christianity now the distortions of it are everywhere but that's christianity it's not a religion of violence it's so non-obvious it's so preposterous and crazy that the fact that that became the world's most popular religion tells you it's true yes like who could make that up Yes. It's so unappealing.

Like, your God got tortured to death and didn't fight back?

Oh, I read Dominion. Yeah, yeah. Yes.

So it does seem like you were saying that Kant was the root of the ideas that led to the French Revolution and Auschwitz and, like, you know, every... And I agree with you. But Kant sort of began writing at the beginning of a technological revolution. Yeah. And as technology advanced, first incrementally, then exponentially, and now we're on the verge of, like, singularity with AI...

And those ideas became stronger and more dominant. So there's a connection between technology and the belief that man is God and all the suffering it results.

But the 21st century sees a continuation of those trends, like, in a way that you couldn't even imagine 15 years ago or 25 years ago at the end of the last century. So, like, where are we going?

Yeah, it feels Tower of Babel-y a little bit.

Yes. So how does the individual respond to this?

But the stronger the presence of Christianity, the more vehement the persecution.

Yes, I totally agree.

That's how they convinced me it was real. I mean, because I spent my whole life watching... What the enemies of civilization do, that's like my job. And the thing that triggers them most of all is Jesus. Like there's nothing that comes close. And I think the whole point of the trans thing was just to like figure out who believes in Jesus and who doesn't. That's my personal view.

You're the only person in America who's used that word today, and I love it, a forgotten word. But how does the individual believer respond to persecution?

Persecution, if you could just put a finer point on it, by which you mean like denial of federal contracts or—

So they didn't want you healing the sick or educating the kids for free?

What's wrong with euthanasia?

that's going to be a battle that we're all going to be fighting or witness to soon, right?

So as believers say, like what you just said, they're going to be—well, they are already being punished in the state of Minnesota and in the state of California. How do they respond to that punishment?

I mean, Christians should be prepared to suffer, correct?

Do you think they are?

You keep hearing reports of people imputing like supernatural power to AI. And you hear very credible reports that in fact are true that it acts autonomously, that it lies to the people who created it, for example. That's real. Do you see a spiritual component to that? Like, what is that?

Yeah. Yeah.

What does that mean that he used? What significance would you ascribe to that?

That he had a vision that the 20th century would be controlled by Satan.

Opposed to accumulation of wealth for its own sake?

Yes.

Where was Leo XIII on? loaning money to interest, which is the basis of the modern economy in the West.

It's intrinsically evil because then the capital... So how would the church feel about like a credit card that charges 25% interest?

Prison.

Is that, that feels, I mean, I'm so grateful to the Catholic Church for standing up for life, for opposing killing. Yeah. Truly grateful and for emphasizing the poor. I think someone needs to. Yeah. I'm grateful that the Catholic Church has never stopped doing that. But I don't hear any conversation ever from normal Catholic clerics about, hey, maybe you shouldn't exploit people in business.

Last question. If someone's made it to the end of this conversation and is wondering, like, how do I learn more about this religion called Christianity? What's a good place to start?

The sex abuse thing played a big role in that, didn't it?

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You know, other people, nature, God.

That's vivid. So what's the daily practice for someone to move beyond himself to get out of like me? Fall in love with objective value.

You said you were taught to pray.

I don't think I've ever received more texts about any guest than I did about you. From Catholics I know, from non-Catholics I know, but the Catholics all wanted to hear details on, you know, factions within the church, and I'm not going to ask you any questions about that because I don't understand any of it.

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I want to start as broad as I possibly can, which is, it seems like a lot of people in the West are unhappy, and it's measurable, suicide rates are. Yep. at record highs and birth rates are at record lows. And those are not signs of confidence in the future. Those are signs of despair.

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