Bobby

and just pound away at it for four hours without any interruptions and really lose yourself in it a lot of these 14 metrics actually are manifest in hobbies and so if you can obviously a business is a business and so you can't just be like everybody do what they want it worked for a little while for github until they got to about 100 i think 100 engineers i was there for i was there for the ride not at github but here podcasting and paying attention and using it as a product

and just pound away at it for four hours without any interruptions and really lose yourself in it a lot of these 14 metrics actually are manifest in hobbies and so if you can obviously a business is a business and so you can't just be like everybody do what they want it worked for a little while for github until they got to about 100 i think 100 engineers i was there for i was there for the ride not at github but here podcasting and paying attention and using it as a product

And going to conferences where Zach Holman was traveling around and talking about their engineering-led development and everybody pretty much just works on what they want to, that worked for GitHub for a long time. Long meaning in years, not in employee count, like up to 100. It's not a large engineering team. They're way larger now.

And going to conferences where Zach Holman was traveling around and talking about their engineering-led development and everybody pretty much just works on what they want to, that worked for GitHub for a long time. Long meaning in years, not in employee count, like up to 100. It's not a large engineering team. They're way larger now.

But at a certain point, that thing falls apart because there are... There's work that needs to be done that nobody would just naturally pick unless it was assigned to them and they're paid to do it. And so eventually that does. But if you can make your engineering team feel at least approximate like they would be doing this as a hobby, then I think you're going to have a lot of happy programmers.

But at a certain point, that thing falls apart because there are... There's work that needs to be done that nobody would just naturally pick unless it was assigned to them and they're paid to do it. And so eventually that does. But if you can make your engineering team feel at least approximate like they would be doing this as a hobby, then I think you're going to have a lot of happy programmers.

And a lot more happiness, too. Everybody wins there. There's no losers. These drivers, these 14 drivers, have you ever done a survey where you've asked developers to rank order?

And a lot more happiness, too. Everybody wins there. There's no losers. These drivers, these 14 drivers, have you ever done a survey where you've asked developers to rank order?

Those drivers, they do.

Those drivers, they do.

Do you find that to be pretty subjective or are there certain ones that always float up to the top?

Do you find that to be pretty subjective or are there certain ones that always float up to the top?

Such as?

Such as?

Really?

Really?

Yeah. Is that across engineering teams or product teams or is that like dev systems versus or ops versus devs?

Yeah. Is that across engineering teams or product teams or is that like dev systems versus or ops versus devs?

Right.

Right.