Brittany Luce
Appearances
Consider This from NPR
Over a dozen lawsuits to stop DOGE data access are betting on a 1974 law
Oh, hey there. I'm Brittany Luce, and I don't know, maybe this is a little out of pocket to say, but I think you should listen to my podcast. It's called It's Been a Minute, and I love it, and I think you will too. Over the past couple months, over 100,000 new listeners started tuning in. Find out why. Listen to the It's Been a Minute podcast from NPR today.
Consider This from NPR
Drowning in tariffs, American businesses try to stay afloat
Hey there, I'm Brittany Luce, and I don't know, maybe this is a little out of pocket to say, but I think you should listen to my podcast. It's called It's Been a Minute, and I love it, and I think you will too. Over the past couple months, over 100,000 new listeners started tuning in. Find out why. Listen to the It's Been a Minute podcast from NPR today.
Consider This from NPR
Trump takes aim at trade deficits. Are they actually bad?
Oh, hey there. I'm Brittany Luce, and I don't know, maybe this is a little out of pocket to say, but I think you should listen to my podcast. It's called It's Been a Minute, and I love it, and I think you will too. Over the past couple months, over 100,000 new listeners started tuning in. Find out why. Listen to the It's Been a Minute podcast from NPR today.
Consider This from NPR
Trump says the economy is in 'transition.' What comes after?
Oh, hey there. I'm Brittany Luce, and I don't know, maybe this is a little out of pocket to say, but I think you should listen to my podcast. It's called It's Been a Minute, and I love it, and I think you will too. Over the past couple months, over 100,000 new listeners started tuning in. Find out why. Listen to the It's Been a Minute podcast from NPR today.
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
Oh, hey there. I'm Brittany Luce. And I don't know, maybe this is a little out of pocket to say, but I think you should listen to my podcast. It's called It's Been a Minute, and I love it, and I think you will too. Over the past couple months, over 100,000 new listeners started tuning in. Find out why. Listen to the It's Been a Minute podcast from NPR today.
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
Over 70% of us say that we feel spiritual, but that doesn't mean we're going to church. Nope, the girls are doing Reiki, the bros are doing psychedelics, and a whole lot of us are turning inward to manifest our best selves. On It's Been a Minute from NPR, I'm looking at why maybe you and your closest friends are buying into wellness for spirituality.
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
That's on the It's Been a Minute podcast from NPR.
Fresh Air
The 'Fog Of Delusion' In Biden's Inner Circle
Oh, hey there. I'm Brittany Luce. And I don't know, maybe this is a little out of pocket to say, but I think you should listen to my podcast. It's called It's Been a Minute, and I love it, and I think you will too. Over the past couple months, over 100,000 new listeners started tuning in. Find out why. Listen to the It's Been a Minute podcast from NPR today.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
Oh, yeah, that's the million dollar question. I have seen some early reviewers saying that it's a memoir, which it is definitely not. I want that to be clear, but I think it's a completely valid question. And I catch myself doing it as a reader, too, like the conflation of the main character with the author. And so, of course, I've thought about this a lot and been asked this a lot.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
And I think the ways that it is non-fictional are sort of subtler than one might realize. Like... I think the sensory details of my life and the characteristics of the people that I'm close to and that I've spent a lot of time noticing and observing, I think those are always the things that end up making their way into a book, which is sort of like...
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
I always say like the tax of dating or loving or befriending a writer is that all of these sort of like very specific, intimate, sometimes seemingly insignificant details are the things that end up being like woven into the book and making it have like the texture of real life.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
And in a way that it's like probably only like that person would see themselves in it when they read it and be like, oh, like that's, That's the brand of perfume that I use. Yeah, exactly. Like, oh, that's my turmeric-colored bedspread. Right.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
Oh, that's a great question. I think Ruth is lonely and it actually has made me reflect a lot on my writing in general. And I think I'm always writing about characters who are defined by their longing and motivated by like trying to fill the God-shaped hole inside of them to use like 12-step language. And so I think Ruth is a... is a holy person, like H-O-L-E-Y, as perhaps we all are.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
Yeah, and I think she has a lot of reservations about her own lovability and also her own desirability, which maybe is one of the many reasons why she enjoys her work as a stripper and later as a dominatrix And I think she's a very curious person, which probably would be the main ways that I think I'm like Ruth.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
I actually think I'm very different from Ruth, but we do share that fundamental curiosity and an attraction to underworlds or shadows, maybe. I feel like she's very unafraid of things that other people might deem seedy or grubby. I think she feels at ease in those environments or with those types of people.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
Yeah. Well, I think I wanted it to be real and I wanted it to be empathetic and relatable and realistic and all of these things. And it makes Ruth, I think, a more like a character that we would see everywhere and a person who...
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
yeah, isn't this like flashing billboard image of a woman, even though in the sex work world, that's always, you know, what you're portraying or the role that you're stepping into. But even for the most, you know, like gorgeous woman working as a stripper or whatever, like that would always be a fantasy or a role that one is inhabiting.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
And I think all women, like regardless of what they look like, are actually like really good at that. and are really learned to play the role and to understand what someone wants before they understand it themselves. That's probably what makes an excellent sex worker, I think, is that almost mind-reading empathy and the ability to shapeshift.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
And actually, I think that that's another big part of Ruth's averageness kind of being a benefit to her in these worlds is it allows her to shapeshift. And in general, she's a shapeshifter like outside the club as well.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
Well, I guess probably the useless gender studies degree. No, I'm just kidding.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
Yeah, yeah. Well, I think when I... You know, I had the bizarre and, like, gorgeous but also very weird experience of publishing my book. So I wrote it when I was, I guess, like, 20, and then it came out right when I graduated. So, you know, that was amazing.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
And I think for me, and still actually like the most important thing to me upon graduating was wanting to have freedom and control of my time. And once my advance from the first book rather quickly ran out, I did the usual food service jobs, bartender, waitress, and anyone who's worked in food service jobs. knows how, you know, taxing that can be like mentally and psychically.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
And so I think like many artists and many people, I started to despair because I felt like I was losing this control of my time and my space. And so I think like all of the decisions I made around the types of work that I would originally driven by this desire for freedom and control of my time.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
And, you know, like if you can work one day of the week for $800 an hour and then have the rest of the week to write, that's the dream, you know, that's what has... And then I think once I got into it, in addition to the freedom and control of my time, you know, then I started to fall in love with it for...
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
the the curiosities that uh like how it satisfied my own curiosities and and the excitement of it and and just you know like i'm a writer so i'm always interested in stories and i kind of like randomly found this job or these this type of work where people are always telling you not just their stories but they're but they want to tell you their secrets You know, and I love to listen.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
So I kind of felt almost like called to the job, you know, like as someone who wants nothing more than to be like a keeper of these masculine secrets or to be a witness to people's longings and a witness to their grief. Like it felt, you know, not to say that I didn't have like... Weird sessions or rude clients.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
Like, of course, like I never want to give off this impression that, you know, everything is always like rosy. Sitting down and talking, right?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
Yeah. Well, I mean, of course, like as a dominatrix and a provider, I have, you know, my own limits and I have the things that I really enjoy. Like I love cross-dresser sessions. I feel like I'm the perfect person for that because I have lots of cross-dressers in my regular life too.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
And, you know, there's things that I don't do either because I, mainly more just because I feel like I'm not good at it, but... To answer your question more specifically, you know, like if someone's presenting me with a fantasy, like this disembodied fantasy, I think in general, I would like to think I'm a very open-minded person.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
And I don't think it's particularly hard to feel into their fantasy when, you know, the central longing or the central appetite behind the fantasy is clear to me or is laid bare, you know, like, So much of the time it's, you know, like it might seem inaccessible or insane, like a certain fantasy, but the heart of it is more relatable or familiar than maybe people would like to admit.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
So, yeah, I guess it's about empathy, which I always like to say that what makes a good writer is also what makes a good dominatrix, which is empathy and curiosity and bravery. So I guess those things all coming together... make it not easy, but make me feel able to receive these fantasies.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
And I guess I think of myself, I said it earlier, but like to be a witness, you know, like to witness something and hold space for it, you know, even if it's not my particular... Your cup of tea. Yeah, not my flavor. Yeah. Right. But to witness it feels important.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
Right, right. Like a therapist, right? Like, I guess when your therapist sees you out in the world, they're not supposed to acknowledge you. Only once, actually, which is kind of interesting that it would only be once. And it was, I was late and walking to the dungeon to have a session with this person who was like killing time on the corner.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
And I remember he was wearing, you know, like the green M&M. He was wearing like a green M&M t-shirt and eating a piece of pizza. No, I was eating a piece of pizza.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
And I remember thinking like, oh, no, this is like so like ruining his fantasy because I'm wearing like street clothes and like wearing like my like ratty like faux fur jacket and eating pizza really hurriedly because I'm late to my session. And I remember we just like locked eyes and then I just like kept walking.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
And then, you know, 10 minutes later, he's at the dungeon and we didn't acknowledge it.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
Exactly. And, you know, his fantasy of a dominatrix would probably be someone who like lives and sleeps and eats in like a full latex suit, you know. So I didn't want I felt kind of bad. I was like, oh, no, I like disrupted that fantasy for him with my pizza. Yeah.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
I don't think there's a particular age, but I do think that sex work in general is not something that you should plan to do forever. Which, again, you know, is true of many jobs. But I feel that it is so exhausting and there is like a certain amount of like emotional drainage that happens that...
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
And, you know, inevitably, you know, it's also like the same thing with like you shouldn't model forever. Well, I guess you can model forever. But, you know, there there is like a like athletes. Yeah. But, you know, it does it does sort of change how you view yourself. if you're not so careful with your boundaries.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
And the reality is that most people start doing sex work when they're really, really young and don't have those boundaries in place. So actually, I would say it's better to start when you're a bit older, like at least 25, when your prefrontal cortex has developed.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
I mean, not that I did that, but now that I'm 30 and looking back, I'm like, actually, I think it's better to start when you're a bit older and to have a plan for your future self.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
I mean, you know, there are, of course, like dominatrixes of all ages, but I just think like how taxing it can be on your like psychic state is something that, yeah, you should take care of yourself in that way, you know, like because you're really absorbing so many people's energies and so much vulnerability and energy.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
Yeah, and, you know, we are therapists, but we're maybe not trained therapists. So I think sometimes those boundaries can be slipperier than we realize until it's too late.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
Well, literally like therapists. Like I know so many doms and sex workers of all stripes who then become so interested in therapy because they realize that that's what they've been doing.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
Thank you. I had so much fun and thank you so much for reading.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
Oh, hey there. I'm Brittany Luce. And I don't know, maybe this is a little out of pocket to say, but I think you should listen to my podcast. It's called It's Been a Minute, and I love it. And I think you will too. Over the past couple months, over 100,000 new listeners started tuning in. Find out why. Listen to the It's Been a Minute podcast from NPR today.
Fresh Air
50 Years Of 'Rocky Horror'
Oh, hey there. I'm Brittany Luce. And I don't know, maybe this is a little out of pocket to say, but I think you should listen to my podcast. It's called It's Been a Minute, and I love it. And I think you will, too. Over the past couple of months, over 100,000 new listeners started tuning in. Find out why. Listen to the It's Been a Minute podcast from NPR today.
Fresh Air
50 Years Of 'Rocky Horror'
Over 70% of us say that we feel spiritual, but that doesn't mean we're going to church. Nope, the girls are doing Reiki, the bros are doing psychedelics, and a whole lot of us are turning inward to manifest our best selves. On It's Been a Minute from NPR, I'm looking at why maybe you and your closest friends are buying into wellness for spirituality.
Fresh Air
50 Years Of 'Rocky Horror'
That's on the It's Been a Minute podcast from NPR. On the Embedded Podcast.
Fresh Air
'Hacks' Returns! With Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder, Paul W. Downs
Oh, hey there. I'm Brittany Luce. And I don't know, maybe this is a little out of pocket to say, but I think you should listen to my podcast. It's called It's Been a Minute, and I love it, and I think you will too. Over the past couple months, over 100,000 new listeners started tuning in. Find out why. Listen to the It's Been a Minute podcast from NPR today.
Fresh Air
'Hacks' Returns! With Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder, Paul W. Downs
How about tomorrow night? Somebody stop me.
It's Been a Minute
Trend Alert: The girls are making office fashion sexy again
As somebody who wore glasses literally to their wedding reception, I'm going to reserve my thoughts on that. But I'm sure they look amazing. I'm sure they look amazing. Okay. So we know that office siren is glasses. We know it's thin eyebrows. What else does it look like?
It's Been a Minute
Trend Alert: The girls are making office fashion sexy again
Girl, I agree. OK, my culture is not a costume. OK, I just can't see. And that's that about that.
It's Been a Minute
Trend Alert: The girls are making office fashion sexy again
Well, I can tell you what, it won't be me doing Zoom Chic, okay? Noted, noted. I'll hold you to that. Thank you. Well, Margaret, thank you so much for coming on and sharing this trend with us. This was so much fun. Yeah, Brittany, this was fun. Thanks. That was Margaret Serino. She's a producer over at NPR's Life Kit.
It's Been a Minute
Trend Alert: The girls are making office fashion sexy again
And I'm going to put on my influencer hat for a minute and ask you to please subscribe to this show on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you're listening. Click follow so you know the latest in culture while it's still hot. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Liam McBain. This episode was edited by Nina Potok. Our supervising producer is Barton Girdwood.
It's Been a Minute
Trend Alert: The girls are making office fashion sexy again
Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
Trend Alert: The girls are making office fashion sexy again
A warning, this segment contains references to sexuality and sexual violence. Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. Today, I have a very special guest here with me. Yay. Margaret Serino. Welcome to It's Been a Minute. Hi, Brittany. Happy to be here. Happy to have you.
It's Been a Minute
Trend Alert: The girls are making office fashion sexy again
Why do you think Office Siren has stuck around?
It's Been a Minute
Trend Alert: The girls are making office fashion sexy again
Okay, so fashion famously happens in cycles. So where do we see this emphasis on business wear happening in the past? Like what's the lineage of this trend of kind of putting a spin on business wear?
It's Been a Minute
Trend Alert: The girls are making office fashion sexy again
Wait, hold on. So that's where the name white collar actually comes from, from this early 1800s fashion trend?
It's Been a Minute
Trend Alert: The girls are making office fashion sexy again
Okay, oh my gosh. I love the idea. Also, though, like, I love the idea of a detachable collar. Mm-hmm.
It's Been a Minute
Trend Alert: The girls are making office fashion sexy again
Oh, I think that makes total sense. Like, when I think about iconic suits in the 80s, I think about, like she said, David Byrne of the Talking Heads, like, famous for wearing these big boxy suits that were really absurd-looking, but, you know, it totally matches his lyrics about the absurdity of modern life, or... or like Grace Jones nightclubbing.
It's Been a Minute
Trend Alert: The girls are making office fashion sexy again
The album cover where she's wearing a suit and smoking a cigarette and she's kind of giving like androgynous, I don't know, it feels like a really interesting play on gender. Yeah, people were really playing with it.
It's Been a Minute
Trend Alert: The girls are making office fashion sexy again
Oh, do I remember? For the record, I didn't wear that much business wear in the club because I was busy wearing spandex, trying to be a hot girl. Like, I was trying to look like Carrie Hilson in Love in This Club video. But that style, that office wear style in the club was so rampant at the time that my friends and family sometimes made fun of me for not covering up enough.
It's Been a Minute
Trend Alert: The girls are making office fashion sexy again
not covering up enough, in the club. That makes me so sad. And you want to know something? I look back, I have no regrets, okay? Good. But back then, the club was full of blazers, full suits, pencil skirts, cardigans, blouses. It was a thing for men and for women.
It's Been a Minute
Trend Alert: The girls are making office fashion sexy again
Oh, yes. I finished college in 2009. I'm intimately familiar. Yeah, I mean, entering or... Not entering the workforce in my case.
It's Been a Minute
Trend Alert: The girls are making office fashion sexy again
Oh, 100 percent. I mean, my friend John had this phrase at the time that we still use to this day, junior balling. He used it as a term to describe what it was like to get like your first scholarship. solid, full-time job. And junior balling was an achievement, okay? Because finding a full-time job at that time was really hard. Like, I finished college in 2009.
It's Been a Minute
Trend Alert: The girls are making office fashion sexy again
I didn't start junior balling until 2015, okay? Okay. Okay. So the idea of, like, this stable, secure office job felt kind of like a have those kinds of jobs. Well, they didn't have a lot of extra money lying around for a separate club wardrobe. So office wear was, in a way, kind of like the junior ball uniform.
It's Been a Minute
Trend Alert: The girls are making office fashion sexy again
Okay. So Marge is my colleague over at Life Kit, but she's also one of the most fashionable people at the NPR New York Bureau. Oh, stop. I'm blushing. It's true, though. It's true. It's true. And she's often dressed in a style that's aptly called office siren. Yes. Yes.
It's Been a Minute
Trend Alert: The girls are making office fashion sexy again
I also want to point out that the idea of office wear in the club back in the day It wasn't just about like fantasy or, you know, tight recession era budgets. For starters, I mean, some clubs have dress codes, right? No jeans, sneakers or gang wear, that kind of stuff. But I think another key part of this also goes back to 2005 when the NBA instituted a dress code.
It's Been a Minute
Trend Alert: The girls are making office fashion sexy again
They previously did not have one that was like this. Long story short. After what is now called the malice at the palace, this huge fight that broke out on the court at a Pistons-Pacers game, the NBA commissioner decided that the league needed a dress code to help with its so-called image problems, let's say.
It's Been a Minute
Trend Alert: The girls are making office fashion sexy again
So players went from wearing casual wear like do-rags, jerseys, jeans, big chains, and sneakers to and from games, right? Right. to being required to wear business dress, like suits and ties.
It's Been a Minute
Trend Alert: The girls are making office fashion sexy again
Even though they had to follow these rules that some players definitely felt and expressed that they felt they were racially dubious, at the end of the day, ballplayers are still trendsetters and fans wanted to look like them. And so the fans started wearing suits too. Wow. Yeah, that's so interesting.
It's Been a Minute
Trend Alert: The girls are making office fashion sexy again
Coming up, why office wear has come back in vogue and how it got freakified.
It's Been a Minute
Trend Alert: The girls are making office fashion sexy again
OK, so there's like a history of this, right? You know, some of which I remember myself. But now we're in, as you described, this freakification moment.
It's Been a Minute
Trend Alert: The girls are making office fashion sexy again
Now, I understand that, but you're saying that it's also freakified, that it has, like, a kind of weird tinge.
It's Been a Minute
Trend Alert: The girls are making office fashion sexy again
Yeah, I can totally see the allure of expressing all these different tensions and anxieties about work and sexuality and repression, you know, through your clothes. And I have to agree, like, you know, so many of the examples that you cited of freakified office wear are very cool. But I also can't think about the tension between sexuality and the workplace without thinking about Me Too.
It's Been a Minute
Trend Alert: The girls are making office fashion sexy again
I wonder how does our post Me Too world play into all this?
It's Been a Minute
Trend Alert: The girls are making office fashion sexy again
So do you think with even more changes to the economy and our workplaces that this trend will keep going?
It's Been a Minute
The Grammy nominee you need to hear: Esperanza Spalding
Well, Esperanza, thank you so much for this conversation. This was so beautiful.
It's Been a Minute
The Grammy nominee you need to hear: Esperanza Spalding
And congratulations on your nomination. Thank you. And best of luck.
It's Been a Minute
The Grammy nominee you need to hear: Esperanza Spalding
You too. I love that. I'll take that. Thank you. That was Grammy Award nominee for Best Jazz Vocal Album, Esperanza Spalding. You could hear her collaboration with Milton Nascimento in full on their album, Milton and Esperanza. And one more thing before I go. We're working on a series about loneliness, and we want to hear from you. What does loneliness look like for you?
It's Been a Minute
The Grammy nominee you need to hear: Esperanza Spalding
How did you come to realize it was a problem? And Have you taken any steps to foster more connection in your life? If you're 18 or older, send us a voice memo to IBAM at NPR.org to tell us more. We're especially interested in stories from men and moms, but we'd love to hear from everyone and anyone else too. That's IBAM.org. at NPR.org.
It's Been a Minute
The Grammy nominee you need to hear: Esperanza Spalding
This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Corey Antonio Rose. Barton Girdwood. This episode was edited by Jasmine Romero. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right, that's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
The Grammy nominee you need to hear: Esperanza Spalding
Since then, Esperanza has become a music luminary with a sound that defies genres. She's performed with legends like Stevie Wonder and Patti LaBelle and was personally selected by Barack Obama to perform at the Nobel Peace Prize ceremonies. Her latest project combines her distinctive sound with that of Brazilian jazz icon Milton Nascimento on their latest album, Milton and Esperanza.
It's Been a Minute
The Grammy nominee you need to hear: Esperanza Spalding
The album is truly the best of both worlds. A love letter to the style and sound that has made Nascimento a jazz icon over the past half century. And the complex experimental melodies Esperanza has made her signature over the past two decades. How did each of you first learn of the other person?
It's Been a Minute
The Grammy nominee you need to hear: Esperanza Spalding
That's a good word to get put in for you.
It's Been a Minute
The Grammy nominee you need to hear: Esperanza Spalding
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. This is one of those interviews where my parents are going to be like, oh. You talk to her. That's right, Mom and Dad. Today's guest is somebody you know I have been a fan of for a long time.
It's Been a Minute
The Grammy nominee you need to hear: Esperanza Spalding
That initial encounter led to a collaboration on Esperanza's 2010 album, Chamber Music Society. For Esperanza, it was a lesson in humility. I loved the album. I even got my dad into it. And I ended up going with my parents to see you at the Detroit show that you did on that tour back then.
It's Been a Minute
The Grammy nominee you need to hear: Esperanza Spalding
One of the songs on the album called Apple Blossom was my introduction to your collaborative relationship with Milton Nascimento.
It's Been a Minute
The Grammy nominee you need to hear: Esperanza Spalding
It's a gorgeous song. It's about the life cycles of both nature and love. What about working together on that song made you realize that Milton would become a friend and collaborator for life?
It's Been a Minute
The Grammy nominee you need to hear: Esperanza Spalding
Back in 2010, I bought the CD of Chamber Music Society. It's been that long. I bought the CD. I went to a Borders. Oh, my gosh. Whoa.
It's Been a Minute
The Grammy nominee you need to hear: Esperanza Spalding
I mean, I have to be honest. I had never actually heard of Milton before your song Together back in 2010. But because you introduced me to him, I learned so much more about Black Brazilian musicians like Milton and Gilberto Gil. Like, talk to me about the Black Brazilian musical influences on this album and key moments where they stand out to you.
It's Been a Minute
The Grammy nominee you need to hear: Esperanza Spalding
Flashback. Today's guest is jazz singer, multi-instrumentalist, and composer Esperanza Spalding. She's a 2025 Grammy Award nominee for Best Jazz Vocal Album, but she's no stranger to that golden statue. You might remember her as the winner of the 2011 Grammy for Best New Artist, beating out the likes of Florence and the Machine, Mumford & Sons, Drake, and Justin Bieber.
It's Been a Minute
The Grammy nominee you need to hear: Esperanza Spalding
But I also felt like throughout this album, you and Milton were having like a diasporic conversation.
It's Been a Minute
The Grammy nominee you need to hear: Esperanza Spalding
Oh, I mean, to me, it felt very clear. I mean, it felt like you were blending your approaches to Black music together and finding... Like the tension where you all had different approaches was great. But then also there were some points where it was like clear you were coming from the same place. Would you describe it as like a diasporic conversation or some other way?
It's Been a Minute
The Grammy nominee you need to hear: Esperanza Spalding
And talk to me about how each of you communicated and what you were trying to say to each other.
It's Been a Minute
The Grammy nominee you need to hear: Esperanza Spalding
Coming up, wise words passed from a jazz icon to a jazz legend in the making.
It's Been a Minute
The Grammy nominee you need to hear: Esperanza Spalding
Stick around. You all were creating across generations as well, and not just with each other. I mean, the guest spots on this album also span generationally. Paul Simon, Leon LaHavas, the great Diane Reeves, and so many more people all appear on this album. I wonder what kind of intergenerational conversation is being had on this album?
It's Been a Minute
The Grammy nominee you need to hear: Esperanza Spalding
That's so beautiful. It's such a beautiful way of thinking about it that this is simply your community and these are the conversations that you are having musically and otherwise. Anyway.
It's Been a Minute
The Grammy nominee you need to hear: Esperanza Spalding
You are actually our third Grammy Best New Artist winner to appear on this show behind EGOT winner John Legend and one of your fellow nominees this year for Best Jazz Vocal Album, Samara Joy. Luscious company. I wonder, though, when it comes to the Best New Artists... Is there a club? A group chat?
It's Been a Minute
The Grammy nominee you need to hear: Esperanza Spalding
You and Milton, as you brought up, you both share a connection to the late great Wayne Shorter. In the 70s, Milton and Wayne collaborated on Native Dancer, as you mentioned. And decades later, you and Wayne collaborated on jazz opera shortly before his passing. The album is dedicated to him. Where do you feel or hear his influence most on this album?
It's Been a Minute
The Grammy nominee you need to hear: Esperanza Spalding
Oh, I'm taking that to therapy. That's that's a good one.
It's Been a Minute
The Grammy nominee you need to hear: Esperanza Spalding
One last question. What's a song from this album that you feel is a perfect blend of your musical approaches? Yours and Milton's.
It's Been a Minute
Can doctors test embryos for autism? And should they?
Why is there so much fear around or focus on autism right now?
It's Been a Minute
Can doctors test embryos for autism? And should they?
In what ways is the logic behind polygenic embryo testing both similar to and different from the eugenics movement?
It's Been a Minute
Can doctors test embryos for autism? And should they?
The reason I'm bringing up this nearly 30-year-old movie is because of this newly available technology called polygenic embryo screening. I've been hearing some comparisons of this technology to Gattaca.
It's Been a Minute
Can doctors test embryos for autism? And should they?
Right. State eugenics are eugenic practices that are supported by the government. Liberal eugenics is kind of more on an individual level. Exactly.
It's Been a Minute
Can doctors test embryos for autism? And should they?
What are the implications for this kind of screening becoming more widespread?
It's Been a Minute
Can doctors test embryos for autism? And should they?
That's Vardit Ravitsky, senior lecturer at Harvard Medical School and president of the Hastings Center, a nonpartisan bioethics research center. The genetic testing we typically already use on embryos came out just a few years before Gattaca. And it usually looks for specific conditions that have really clear single gene causes, like Tay-Sachs disease, which is very painful and deadly.
It's Been a Minute
Can doctors test embryos for autism? And should they?
Vardit, Katie, thank you both so much. Thank you so much. Thank you, Brittany. That was Katie Hassan, Associate Director of the Center for Genetics and Society, and Vardit Ravitsky, Senior Lecturer at Harvard Medical School and President of the Hastings Center, a nonpartisan bioethics research center.
It's Been a Minute
Can doctors test embryos for autism? And should they?
And I'm going to put on my influencer hat for a second and ask you to please subscribe to this show on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you're listening. Click follow so you know the latest in culture while it's still hot. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Liam McBain. This episode was edited by Nina Potok. Our supervising producer is Barton Girdwood.
It's Been a Minute
Can doctors test embryos for autism? And should they?
Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
Can doctors test embryos for autism? And should they?
But polygenic screening, it's new and it's different. It looks at conditions that have a lot of different genetic variables, hence the name polygenic.
It's Been a Minute
Can doctors test embryos for autism? And should they?
Companies like Orchid and Heliospect offered a screen for conditions that can include cancer, obesity, bipolar disorder, celiac disease, and autism. The current head of the Health and Human Services Department, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., stated, "...by September we will know what has caused the autism epidemic and we'll be able to eliminate those exposures."
It's Been a Minute
Can doctors test embryos for autism? And should they?
So this kind of research feels top of mind right now. But the causes for these conditions are not always clear. So they give each embryo risk scores based on their calculation of probability that a kid might develop these conditions. Now, we're a long way from becoming like the society in Gattaca. These tests are expensive and only available through IVF.
It's Been a Minute
Can doctors test embryos for autism? And should they?
But I want to know, what makes these tests appealing? And what would it mean for us culturally if this kind of testing becomes more widespread? I sat down with Vardit Ravitsky, who you heard earlier. Thank you so much. And Katie Hassan, Associate Director of the Center for Genetics and Society, a nonprofit public affairs organization that advocates for responsible use of genetic technology.
It's Been a Minute
Can doctors test embryos for autism? And should they?
Thank you for having us. Let's get into it. What is the promise for potential parents? Why might they be drawn to polygenic embryo screening and how could it be helpful?
It's Been a Minute
Can doctors test embryos for autism? And should they?
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident.
It's Been a Minute
Can doctors test embryos for autism? And should they?
So I see the promise for potential parents, the idea that they can have the healthiest child that is available to them with the best possible health outcomes. But from my understanding, this test mainly shows the percentages of a likelihood that a child would have a given condition or given trait.
It's Been a Minute
Can doctors test embryos for autism? And should they?
And famously, you know, one's environment can be just as important as genetics for how people develop. So how accurate is this screening?
It's Been a Minute
Can doctors test embryos for autism? And should they?
Hmm. So we reached out to Orchid and Heliospect for comment, and they did not respond. But thinking more about how these services came to be, why have other countries limited this kind of screening?
It's Been a Minute
Can doctors test embryos for autism? And should they?
Wait, so other countries do have fertility industry regulatory bodies?
It's Been a Minute
Can doctors test embryos for autism? And should they?
Wait, so why? Like, why doesn't the United States have a regulatory body for these sorts of things?
It's Been a Minute
Can doctors test embryos for autism? And should they?
Interesting. But thinking about some of the things that these tests are screening for, there are some conditions that make it really hard for a baby to survive, like Tay-Sachs. And then there are some that can be hard to live with, but don't impede on a child's survival rate, like say retinitis pigmentosa, which causes gradual blindness.
It's Been a Minute
Can doctors test embryos for autism? And should they?
I have a family member who has RP and he's in his 70s and he can still see, still driving and everything. And then there are things that They're screening for, like we discussed, like obesity and autism, where the predictive science is far from definitive. And many people are autistic or obese, and they live very happy and full and long lives.
It's Been a Minute
Can doctors test embryos for autism? And should they?
Where's the line for what kind of person is considered worthy of life?
It's Been a Minute
Can doctors test embryos for autism? And should they?
Can't contribute to society, basically. Yeah.
It's Been a Minute
Can doctors test embryos for autism? And should they?
Exactly. Have you seen the movie Gattaca? The 1997 sleeper hit movie shows a society where every person is born through genetic selection for the best possible genes. And in the film, Ethan Hawke plays a guy who was conceived the traditional way, who steals someone else's identity to achieve his dream of becoming an astronaut because his own genes were deemed inferior.
It's Been a Minute
Can doctors test embryos for autism? And should they?
Wait. What? Educational attainment, by my definition, means going to school, attaining an education. How can they even see that?
It's Been a Minute
Can doctors test embryos for autism? And should they?
Okay, my producer just let me know that not every company that offers this testing looks at educational attainment. But regardless, I imagine the kind of people that are paying for these tests, I imagine those people have lots of money. And whether they decided to do this testing or not, their child would probably be successful just simply because of the way that the world is set up.
It's Been a Minute
Can doctors test embryos for autism? And should they?
Sure. There is some genetic contribution. But when you already have lots of money focusing more on genetics, it seems a little dubious, at least to me. Exactly. Coming up, what might happen if polygenic embryo screening becomes more widespread?
It's Been a Minute
Can doctors test embryos for autism? And should they?
Okay, so autism is one of the conditions that, you know, they might screen for. And the prospect of being able to screen for that, it feels related to what I see as a much larger current of fear around autism in our culture. There are parents who are so afraid of autism that they will refuse to have their children vaccinated, even though there's no basis to the idea that vaccines cause autism.
It's Been a Minute
Can doctors test embryos for autism? And should they?
And scientists and doctors, you know, will tell you that vaccination is one of the most important things you can do for a child's health to be able to protect them from preventable illness and even death. You know, as you mentioned, Katie, we've also seen Secretary of Health and Human Services, RFK Jr., claim that he's going to try to get to the bottom of the quote unquote autism epidemic.
It's Been a Minute
Can doctors test embryos for autism? And should they?
When asked if he stands by those comments, a spokesperson for the HHS said, quote, His statements emphasize the need for increased research into environmental factors contributing to the rise in autism diagnoses, not to stigmatize individuals with autism or their families. End quote. But to me, calling it an epidemic and saying it destroys families does frame autism as undesirable.
It's Been a Minute
What women want: to embrace their inner monsters
Well, I want to talk about the final film in this trio. It's a little bit more grounded in reality. There's no substance to speak of. There's no balance to keep with seven days here and seven days there. There's no vampires in this movie. But I think it drives home a lot of what we see in The Substance and Nosferatu. It's a little movie called Baby Girl.
It's Been a Minute
What women want: to embrace their inner monsters
Directed by Helena Rain. Ayesha, could you give us a quick rundown of the film?
It's Been a Minute
What women want: to embrace their inner monsters
Aisha, Alexis, and I are getting into how women's desire, repression, and disgust have made the monsters that appear on screen all too real. And for those who haven't seen these films, there are some light spoilers ahead. But don't worry, we won't ruin the whole movie. First up, The Substance. The Substance
It's Been a Minute
What women want: to embrace their inner monsters
It isn't grotesque in the same way as like Lily Rose Depp, like convulsing with her eyes rolling back in her head. But the way that Nicole Kidman's character Romy treats herself, Is like, she might as well be Demi Moore's character from The Substance. She might as well be Ellen from Nosferatu.
It's Been a Minute
What women want: to embrace their inner monsters
She is so ashamed and disgusted with herself for simply wanting something sexually, yes, but also I think even emotionally, romantically, than like the course that's been laid out for her when she's not at work. Okay. Clearly, I get the sense that her husband does not out earn her also in this movie. Yeah, he's like a theater director or something.
It's Been a Minute
What women want: to embrace their inner monsters
But still, not that same. She's like big tech money, right?
It's Been a Minute
What women want: to embrace their inner monsters
You make a really good point, Alexis, about her just... It's like she's not able to enjoy herself partially because of this very specific shame that she has around her desires. It felt like she was both having her own very specific journey, but also...
It's Been a Minute
What women want: to embrace their inner monsters
very tapped into something that I think a lot of people feel when they are pulled in a lot of different directions between work, family, and marriage. There was not really any room left for herself in the room she took for herself. She was trying to better herself or do something to make herself better as opposed to make herself happy. What I did enjoy about this film is that
It's Been a Minute
What women want: to embrace their inner monsters
The ending did not go full Fatal Attraction. No. But I feel like usually in movies where women do something like have an affair, the women are severely punished. I think about that movie Unfaithful with Diane Lane and Richard Gere. Tyler Perry's temptation. Tyler Perry's everything. Tyler Perry's everything.
It's Been a Minute
What women want: to embrace their inner monsters
So without spoiling the movie, I think that Nicole Kidman's character, Romy, faces consequences. But she also... experiences a catharsis. I feel like the movie kind of shows her having grown and learned from the experience of having an affair. I don't know. It was nice to see a woman embracing pleasure in her life.
It's Been a Minute
What women want: to embrace their inner monsters
This Oscar-nominated film stars Demi Moore as Elizabeth, a fading celebrity who, on her 50th birthday, is fired from her job as a TV aerobics instructor. Then she's told about this substance, a drug that can make her young, hot, and most importantly, lovable again. She takes it and... Sue appears, played by Margaret Qualley. Sue is successful, beautiful, and gets Elizabeth's old job back.
It's Been a Minute
What women want: to embrace their inner monsters
Alexis, Aisha, thank you both so much for joining me today. I really had fun getting into the nasty bits with you both. Thanks for having me, Brittany. Thank you. That was iBand producer Alexis Williams and Pop Culture Happy Hour co-host Aisha Harris. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Alexis Williams. This episode was edited by Nina Potok.
It's Been a Minute
What women want: to embrace their inner monsters
Our supervising producer is Barton Girdwood. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
What women want: to embrace their inner monsters
But the thing about the substance is you have to respect the balance. And Elizabeth can only live as Sue for seven days. Then Elizabeth must return to her old self. And that starts a vicious, very gory cycle that snowballs into one of the most gruesome body horror experiences that I've ever seen.
It's Been a Minute
What women want: to embrace their inner monsters
Aisha, when you think about this film in terms of women's relationship to the grotesque, or even women's bodies' relationships to the grotesque, what catches your attention?
It's Been a Minute
What women want: to embrace their inner monsters
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. You know the phrase, you don't want to yuck someone's yum? If you start with Orlok at a yuck, by the end, you're like, I see what Ellen is getting into with this.
It's Been a Minute
What women want: to embrace their inner monsters
But Alexis, I'd love to hear from you on this.
It's Been a Minute
What women want: to embrace their inner monsters
That scene in particular came up in one of those actress roundtables. Zendaya was there. Mikey Madison was there. Obviously, Demi Moore, Angelina Jolie. And at this roundtable, they're discussing the film, and someone brought up that scene. The going out scene?
It's Been a Minute
What women want: to embrace their inner monsters
And, I mean, I've just named extremely beautiful, extremely conventionally beautiful Hollywood actresses. They all also felt just as deeply touched by that scene as I was. You know, these are all women I think many people imagine, oh, if I looked like her, I would never feel this way again. It doesn't work like that.
It's Been a Minute
What women want: to embrace their inner monsters
The substance was really interesting to me because it is so meta, as you brought up, Aisha. Like, Demi Moore is this gorgeous 62-year-old Hollywood A-lister, ruled the 80s, ruled the 90s, part of the Brat Pack, and she was considered this huge sex symbol. And I kind of wonder, like, if Demi Moore wasn't
It's Been a Minute
What women want: to embrace their inner monsters
someone who's still considered to be beautiful, desirable, aspirational, would she be so rewarded for this performance where she is uglying herself? Like, I wonder if there are some viewers, perhaps some Academy voters even, who find safety in the idea that the grotesque image of Demi Moore we're seeing on screen is
It's Been a Minute
What women want: to embrace their inner monsters
It's exploring ugliness, but like a very contained ugliness that doesn't need to be engaged with in real life.
It's Been a Minute
What women want: to embrace their inner monsters
Yeah. It is the last week of Oscar season. And instead of talking about the glitz and the glamour, I want to get nasty, but not in the way you may be thinking.
It's Been a Minute
What women want: to embrace their inner monsters
So moving on to another film, Nosferatu, which ended up being actually one of my favorite movies of 2024. It was directed by Robert Eggers. And Nosferatu takes place in the early 1800s in Germany. And it follows a character named Ellen, who's played by Lily Rose Depp. And Ellen is a very lonely and sad young woman. And she's looking for connection, someone to help her feel less alone.
It's Been a Minute
What women want: to embrace their inner monsters
And that's how she forms this psychic connection to Count Orlok, who is this evil vampire who also is like, I don't know, it feels like seven feet tall, bald, looks like a rotting corpse.
It's Been a Minute
What women want: to embrace their inner monsters
And so Orlok wants Ellen all to himself, and he basically possesses her with these psychosexual seizures and fits. This is all happening until Ellen meets the guy who becomes her husband named Thomas. So Orlok... is obviously jealous when this happens and wreaks havoc upon their community. He's basically a plague unto himself, just taking everybody out.
It's Been a Minute
What women want: to embrace their inner monsters
And Ellen basically has to figure out how she can leverage her connection to Orlok in order to save her town. So Alexis, I'd love to hear from you on this. What about this film and the way it gets into Ellen's relationship to the grotesque jumped out for you?
It's Been a Minute
What women want: to embrace their inner monsters
My producer, Alexis, noticed that some of our favorite films from the past year have been portraits of women battling with what disgusts them most, themselves, their insecurities, their desires, their yearning, and how those feelings manifest in a society that's often hostile to women. Think about it.
It's Been a Minute
What women want: to embrace their inner monsters
I feel like in a lot of horror films, the heroine has to reject her monster or her own desires or overpower them or overcome them in order to triumph. But I thought it was interesting that in this film, Ellen has to become one with her monster, right? in order to not just free herself from torment, but to save her town.
It's Been a Minute
What women want: to embrace their inner monsters
Like when Orlok arrives in their city with this plague, it's not just rats, it's disease. People are getting sick and dying or being tormented in their dreams like Ellen. And Orlok eventually tells her that if she does not return to him, he will kill the people in her life that she loves. So, I mean, Ellen's got some big decisions to make.
It's Been a Minute
What women want: to embrace their inner monsters
And honestly, she had a lot more agency in those decisions than I was expecting. Yes. I mean, one of the things that has been... also kind of confounded but kind of not to me, are seeing these thirst edits of Count Orlok. Even though we are definitely meant to find Orlok disgusting, we also find him compelling and appealing. Like, you know the phrase, you don't want to yuck someone's yum?
It's Been a Minute
What women want: to embrace their inner monsters
If you start with Orlok at a yuck, by the end, you're like, I see what Ellen is getting into with this.
It's Been a Minute
What women want: to embrace their inner monsters
Listen, you begin to see why she may not turn away.
It's Been a Minute
What women want: to embrace their inner monsters
The substance, Nosferatu, even Baby Girl, all feature women dealing with some type of self-loathing made real. Whether that's through a literal monster or an affair with a younger coworker. But I wanted to dig deeper. So I called up Pop Culture Happy Hours' Aisha Harris to help. Hi.
It's Been a Minute
What women want: to embrace their inner monsters
Coming up, a film that's a bit more grounded in this world than the underworld, but just as fun.
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
Literally, literally a $35 bottle of olive oil called snake oil. Okay, so I get that part, but another thing I have trouble wrapping my head around is how monastic his life is. As we said, he has no pizza, no late night hangs with friends. He's trying to eliminate the human tendency to want things that may be bad for our bodies, but are, at least for me, good for the soul.
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
And he also does some stuff that isn't so basic. like a kind of gene editing that hasn't been approved by the FDA, or not eating past 11 a.m., or wearing a hat that shoots red lights into his scalp. And for a while, he was taking the same medication that keeps people from rejecting their donated organs. This one guy is pretty extreme about longevity, but he's not the only one.
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
I guess I want to know, what's the point of living forever if you cut out some of the things that, you know, for me, make life pleasurable.
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
Are we seeing this longevity obsession leach out into the wider culture? And if so, how is it showing up?
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
My gosh, my gosh, my gosh. You know, even just looking at celebrities, I've seen like, you know, David Beckham is selling longevity pills and there's another company called Tally Health that's also getting investments from people like John Legend and Zac Efron. This stuff is out there. This stuff is out there. But Michelle, any final thoughts from you?
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
How else are you seeing this obsession with longevity reach out into our wider culture?
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
The longevity industry is worth over $25 billion, and other tech magnates are bought in too. But it's all left me wondering, in the words of Freddie Mercury, just who wants to live forever and why? And what does that mean for the rest of us?
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
Michelle, Tara, you have given me so much to think about today. I don't even know if y'all know, but this was a really great conversation. Thank you both so much.
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
You just heard journalists Tara Isabella Burton and Michelle Santiago-Cortez. And I'm going to put on my influencer hat for a minute and ask you to please subscribe to this show on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you're listening. Click follow so you know the latest in culture while it's still hot. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Liam McBain. This episode was edited by Nina Potok.
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
Our supervising producer is Barton Girdwood. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
To get into what might be a new religion of longevity and what it has to do with a prediction of total AI takeover, I'm joined by Michelle, who you heard earlier. Thanks for having me. And journalist Tara Isabella Burton. Thank you so much for having us. Let's get into it. So to start off, all the stuff Brian Johnson is doing to try to not die, do we know anything about the efficacy of all of it?
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
So though Brian is particularly intense about this stuff, he's not the only one who's into longevity. There's a whole community of people, most of whom are kind of rich tech bros like him or adjacent to that world. Sam Altman and Peter Thiel are also investing in longevity. And stay with me while I'm explaining this.
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
There is an island off the coast of Honduras that has much more relaxed regulations. So companies doing longevity science like Minicircle, which does gene editing, these companies can bypass the FDA while on the island. And there's demand for that. I think it's normal for people to be interested in living a longer life. But Tara, why to this extreme within this group of people? And why now? Yeah.
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. Have you heard of this guy named Brian Johnson? Tech sent a millionaire turned health guru? Maybe you know him from when he started getting infusions of his own son's blood.
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
That is an excellent point. You know, I read one piece in The New Yorker by David Owen that theorized, and to quote him, simple arithmetic shows that if they live a normal lifespan, they won't have time to spend enough of their money. And Johnson himself described the time that he's added to his life as a new kind of wealth creation. You know, the old adage, like people say, time is money.
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
And these guys already have a lot of money. What do you think about that?
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
You know, at the same time, the healthcare system in this country is famously dysfunctional. It can be hard to access. It can be prohibitively expensive. And one survey shows that doctors and their staff spend, I'm sorry, I have to give a dramatic pause here. the equivalent of two full business days every week just dealing with insurance companies.
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
Good healthcare plans cost more, and so does living a healthy lifestyle that keeps people from a lot of types of sickness and death. Is a long life a kind of luxury?
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
Coming up, how is longevity related to the fear of an AI takeover?
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
Or for saying that he wants to live forever.
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
Or how he turned that idea into a movement he's calling Don't Die.
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
Going back to Brian Johnson, the other thing I'm really struck by is how heavily edited Johnson's own desires are. Like he says he's trying to eliminate his quote unquote rascal mind. Like the part of him that wants to eat pizza or stay up late, which I'm like, that's my full brain. He's got a team of doctors working with him to try to stop his aging. But he also has, as you said,
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
and algorithm run his life for him to take the human rascal brain out of control. I'm really interested in that piece. All of this longevity stuff for him is really wrapped up in his beliefs about AI. He says that AI superintelligence is inevitable and that, quote, we are at risk of extinction without a unifying framework to solve human alignment and AI alignment.
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
It's about making sure we exist long enough to figure out what's next. So these things, they don't logically follow to me. Could you explain what's going on here?
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
If this seems bombastic, it's because it is. I think he's smart about how to make things go viral, to share his ideas about how to live and therefore how not to die, which includes some pretty basic stuff. Here's journalist Michelle Santiago-Cortez.
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
Yeah, or in Johnson's case, that he can be around to figure out the answer. Absolutely. This is the thing, though. Okay, so like, I think where I'm at with all this, I'm like surprised that this total belief that AI is going to take over. And it's either going to be a good thing, or it's going to be a bad thing. But either way, we need to be prepared.
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
And that's what Brian Johnson says is behind his movement or religion, as he has called it, don't die. But where are we seeing that belief about AI shaping our culture in other ways?
It's Been a Minute
How Latinos found Evangelicalism and Trump
I would say I think it should not be over read as some permanent tectonic change. The most notable thing about Latinos compared to particularly compared to white Americans who tend to be fairly ossified in their political persuasions. The fluidity among Latinos, both Protestant and Catholic, means that this group really is more up for grabs.
It's Been a Minute
How Latinos found Evangelicalism and Trump
Not to be too cynical about it, but why are the doors flying open among many white evangelical churches to Latinos when in the past they've not been open?
It's Been a Minute
How Latinos found Evangelicalism and Trump
I'm thinking in terms of politics. For example, Latinos as a whole are not as tightly tied to partisan identity as, let's say, white Americans are. So there's a lot more of a fluid situation. But Latino Protestants in particular have been moving toward the Republican Party over the last 10 years. If you look between 2013 and 2023,
It's Been a Minute
How Latinos found Evangelicalism and Trump
the percentage of Latino Protestants who identifies as Republican has more than doubled. Oh, wow. It went from 17% to 37%. And that's a really different picture than, say, among Latino Catholics, among whom 44% are Democrats rather than Republicans.
It's Been a Minute
How Latinos found Evangelicalism and Trump
It is both a kind of style and a set of beliefs. On the belief side, it's a belief that sort of God is still raising up prophets, for example, inside of the church that may be filled with the Spirit and offer a new prophecy. to God and kind of ecstatic utterances inside of a service, for example. It also tends to be a more emotionally expressive style of worship.
It's Been a Minute
How Latinos found Evangelicalism and Trump
So lots of raising hands, sometimes speaking in spiritual tongues. It's that kind of thing. A lot of kind of vibrant music that looks much more effervescent, let's say, than your standard kind of liturgy that you would see like at a Catholic mass. Yeah.
It's Been a Minute
How Latinos found Evangelicalism and Trump
Wow. The one thing I would add here too, is that it's an entrepreneurial space, particularly for Latino leaders, right? So if you think about what does it take to be a Catholic priest, right? Well, it takes years of seminary and it takes getting approved by a bishop. There's structures in place that you have to kind of do, but what does it take to be a pastor?
It's Been a Minute
How Latinos found Evangelicalism and Trump
Sometimes your credentials are the experience people have of you being baptized by the spirit. So it means that it is a kind of open entrepreneurial space where leaders can gather a flock and open up a church.
It's Been a Minute
How Latinos found Evangelicalism and Trump
Well, in many ways, you know, the sort of evangelical experience, you know, is something that really did come of age in the American context, right? So that kind of white, predominant evangelical way of being Christian is a kind of American phenomenon.
It's Been a Minute
How Latinos found Evangelicalism and Trump
Yeah. And then wrapped up in it, too, I think is often a strain of... of kind of aspirational upward mobility that's kind of compatible with this idea of the american dream right and so i think that's also wrapped up in it and it sometimes gets wrapped up theologically in a kind of health and wealth gospel so that there is a kind of upward mobility path to success
It's Been a Minute
How Latinos found Evangelicalism and Trump
good family, health and well-being, along with economic success. Those are very, I think, American ideals as a package. Yes, right. All wrapped up with a kind of deep theological foundation altogether.
It's Been a Minute
How Latinos found Evangelicalism and Trump
Okay, there's a Starbucks and a yoga place that have recently opened in this neighborhood, right? So that means there's a kind of upward mobility gentrification trend happening. It's ripe to kind of drop a church in there.
It's Been a Minute
How Latinos found Evangelicalism and Trump
Well, maybe one way of kind of seeing this clearly is to look again at the difference between Latino Protestants and Latino Catholics here, you know, in terms of politics, just to sharpen this up. So in the last election cycle, PRI's post-election survey showed that among Latino Protestants, 64% of them gave their votes to Trump. All right. Nearly two thirds voted for Trump.
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How Latinos found Evangelicalism and Trump
If you compare that to Latino Catholics, it's only 43%. of Latino Catholics who voted for Trump. In fact, 55% of Latino Catholics voted for Harris. So you see this kind of divide in the politics. You can see it on issues as well. So on abortion, for example, there's a big divide between Latino Catholics and Latino Protestants.
It's Been a Minute
How Latinos found Evangelicalism and Trump
Only 41% of Latino Protestants support the legality of abortion, but 58% of Latino Catholics support the legality of abortion. So there's this big divide. So, you know, both of these groups believe in Jesus. Both of these groups are Christian, right?
It's Been a Minute
How Latinos found Evangelicalism and Trump
But it's the way that kind of that cultural and the kind of evangelical Catholic split kind of really refracts those same religious beliefs into very different political directions.
It's Been a Minute
How Latinos found Evangelicalism and Trump
Well, some of it's good old fashioned shoe leather. some evangelical churches do this on a weekly basis, kind of send people out to neighborhoods to knock on doors, leave brochures, you know, and there's also a really powerful digital space now that it's grown up over the last, you know, 50 years to accompany these kinds of older, older methods. There's also some micro targeting.
It's Been a Minute
How Latinos found Evangelicalism and Trump
Over the last 20 years, white evangelicals have gone from being nearly a quarter of the U.S. population to only 13. And so it's been in that period of white evangelical decline that really, frankly, by necessity, they tried to look, well, where else can we find members?
It's Been a Minute
How Latinos found Evangelicalism and Trump
I can jump in some numbers here. So when we looked at going into the election, and here again, there are huge differences between Latino Protestants and Latino Catholics. So what we found is that while all Latinos were rated like jobs, rising costs, like economic issues were like at the top of the heap for critical issues for voting in this election cycle.
It's Been a Minute
How Latinos found Evangelicalism and Trump
I think we haven't talked about that a lot, but I think that's important. that those issues loomed larger than anything else. So they may have eclipsed in some ways some of the rhetoric around immigration. But when we look at Latino Protestants and Latino Catholics, we see this very different view. So Latino Catholics, we'll start with them, very supportive of DACA.
It's Been a Minute
How Latinos found Evangelicalism and Trump
very opposed to building a wall. So they're very consistent on this part. Latino Protestants are a lot more divided. Divided? Okay. They're supportive of DACA, about six and 10 support DACA, but on building a wall, they're essentially divided on that issue almost evenly. As many support it, as opposed it.
It's Been a Minute
How Latinos found Evangelicalism and Trump
So when you hear that rhetoric around building a wall, it doesn't necessarily resonate in a negative way among Latino Protestants in the way that it does among other Latinos like Catholics or the unaffiliated. Interesting.
It's Been a Minute
Pop culture has a "bean soup problem."
When they, when people were like, Oh, Harry Styles might've spit on Chris Pine. And it's like, I just don't think that happened. I saw that. I was like, I don't think he did that.
It's Been a Minute
Pop culture has a "bean soup problem."
I'm glad I was able to come and commiserate with the two of you because I have been trying to make sense of this. And you all actually at least gave me some good ways to think about and understand what's going on. So Parker, Aisha, thank you both so much.
It's Been a Minute
Pop culture has a "bean soup problem."
That was Pop Culture Happy Hours, Aisha Harris and Code Switch's B.A. Parker. And I'm going to put on my influencer hat for a second and ask you to please subscribe to this show on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you're listening. Click follow so you know the latest in culture while it's still hot. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Alexis Williams.
It's Been a Minute
Pop culture has a "bean soup problem."
This episode was edited by Nina Patak. Our supervising producer is Barton Girdwood. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
Pop culture has a "bean soup problem."
It made me think about a phrase that gets thrown around a lot online. Media literacy. According to the National Association of Media Literacy Education, media literacy is the ability to encode and decode the symbols communicated in what we consume. And for me, most importantly, being able to critically analyze those symbols for a richer takeaway.
It's Been a Minute
Pop culture has a "bean soup problem."
And seeing some of this commentary has me concerned that we're struggling with the necessary tools to even critically approach some of the things we're watching for entertainment. So I called up Pop Culture Happy Hours' Aisha Harris.
It's Been a Minute
Pop culture has a "bean soup problem."
To ask them, where else are they seeing this? And what does this media literacy crisis mean for the way that we engage with the world at large?
It's Been a Minute
Pop culture has a "bean soup problem."
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. Like almost every other person in the country, I flocked to see Ryan Coogler's Sinners when it hit theaters in April. And while I enjoyed the film, part of the fun was seeing all the excitement online.
It's Been a Minute
Pop culture has a "bean soup problem."
It's made plain as day by the people who actually created the thing. But I'm curious, Parker, have you had this experience?
It's Been a Minute
Pop culture has a "bean soup problem."
And there's like a big, like that's a huge, what you're referring to is a huge emotional scene on the show that makes it very clear that they share some type of very serious, like intimate past.
It's Been a Minute
Pop culture has a "bean soup problem."
But let's get into the meat and potatoes of why I brought you both here today, because the online discourse around the film centers has broken my brain. They had me concerned about not just how people were misunderstanding story, as each of you have discussed, but also how people were misunderstanding pretty common racial dynamics. And a lot of these reactions were coming from Black people.
It's Been a Minute
Pop culture has a "bean soup problem."
I want to talk about a specific situation. There's a character in the film named Mary, played by Hailee Steinfeld. Mary is a character who actually, like the real-life actress Steinfeld, has a grandparent who is mixed race.
It's Been a Minute
Pop culture has a "bean soup problem."
One of the main characteristics of her character is that she is passing for white, but she is aware, and at least privately acknowledged, like many white-passing Black people, that she has Black ancestry and she was raised around Black people. Yeah. And I have seen so many people saying that she actually was white. She should be considered white.
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Pop culture has a "bean soup problem."
People simply just not understanding how the one-drop rule worked back then, how segregation worked back in the Jim Crow South. What in the Lena horn are we doing here? It stressed me out. But my concern with this is two-pronged because, you know, this seems like people don't know, A, how to understand history, B,
It's Been a Minute
Pop culture has a "bean soup problem."
and locate a story within a certain historical context, or B, that they also don't understand storytelling, or in this case, how to understand cues and clues that a movie will give you to understand what it's trying to tell you. What do you all make of this phenomenon? Aisha, we'll hear from you first.
It's Been a Minute
Pop culture has a "bean soup problem."
So when I was finally able to scroll through all the spoiler-heavy commentary, I was shocked to see some of the wildest takes I've seen on a movie in a while. For example, there's a Chinese character in the film named Grace, played by Li Junli. And for those who haven't seen it, this is a light spoiler, but she's responsible for a pretty big moment in the film.
It's Been a Minute
Pop culture has a "bean soup problem."
To me, that seems like straight up denial.
It's Been a Minute
Pop culture has a "bean soup problem."
Coming up, how our digital lives may have changed the way we interpret media.
It's Been a Minute
Pop culture has a "bean soup problem."
I feel like a crucial aspect of this media illiteracy campaign is moralizing. And Alexis, our producer, she brought this up. And I'm like, you're so right. There's almost like this entertainment moralizing process where you watch a piece of entertainment and then spend time researching or processing whether the film matches your values or the values of those around you in some cases.
It's Been a Minute
Pop culture has a "bean soup problem."
And then you decide how you feel about what you watched and whether you think it's good or bad. It kind of becomes less about... Like whether you actually think something is well done or entertaining and like more about whether or not this piece of media makes you seem or feel like a good person or confirms what you already believe about the world.
It's Been a Minute
Pop culture has a "bean soup problem."
But what I, and also the director of the film, Ryan Coogler, felt was a rash decision made by a mother in distress, some viewers thought was a representation of a lack of POC solidarity from Asian folks in Black communities. Even stranger, some audience members thought Annie, played by actress Umi Mosaku, was one of the main characters Smoke's mother.
It's Been a Minute
Pop culture has a "bean soup problem."
I mean, it kind of feels like there's like a newer self-awareness for many people around, whether it's around feeling like a good person or at least having your choices confirmed that like kind of gets, I feel like audiences further away from actually sitting with art.
It's Been a Minute
Pop culture has a "bean soup problem."
Yeah. Yeah. Another thing I think about in all this, we're talking about media literacy and entertainment, right? But there's other ways to be media literate that I think we've seen plenty of examples of. I mean, you know, more people than ever are getting their news through social media as opposed to through traditional news outlets.
It's Been a Minute
Pop culture has a "bean soup problem."
But this makes me wonder, like, if audiences can't accurately read a film or TV show where the writer and director are giving them clues... and directing their attention to what they need to be focused on, how might they understand or misunderstand complex news stories with huge real-life implications?
It's Been a Minute
Pop culture has a "bean soup problem."
I don't need this. I'm like, please pay attention to me. But that's a really good point. People's attention is very split. And I see those things pop up in the way that people consume news. I see that pop up in the way that people are engaging with our rapidly changing political landscape.
It's Been a Minute
Pop culture has a "bean soup problem."
And also, I think that makes me think about algorithms, like people's individual worldviews are now also deeply affected by their algorithms. I wonder, like, where does that take us as a society? Like, where does that leave us? Where are we going, y'all?
It's Been a Minute
Pop culture has a "bean soup problem."
Now, for those who don't know, Annie is the estranged wife of Smoke, one of the two smokestack twins played by Michael B. Jordan. Just wild stuff. But this isn't the first time the audience has been out of step with the content itself. The endless rabbit holes and theories around season two of Severance made me want to swear off the fandom entirely.
It's Been a Minute
How "race-neutral" can universities really be?
Jeez. I got one last question. What is higher education for?
It's Been a Minute
How "race-neutral" can universities really be?
Now, some of this was already in the works. For example, places like Yale University have been steadily increasing their Black and Latino student enrollment for years. And while there has been some expected decline at some institutions like Amherst and MIT, I was shocked to learn that there were some cases where Black and Latino enrollment either stayed the same or went up.
It's Been a Minute
How "race-neutral" can universities really be?
My gosh. Well, Alyssa, Zach, thank you both so much. This was a really informative conversation.
It's Been a Minute
How "race-neutral" can universities really be?
Thanks, Brittany. That was NPR's Alyssa Nadworny and labor economist Zach Bleamer. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Alexis Williams. This episode was edited by Nina Potok. Our supervising producer is Barton Girdwood. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR.
It's Been a Minute
How "race-neutral" can universities really be?
And that hasn't gone unnoticed. As a part of the Trump administration's policy to end DEI, over 50 schools are being investigated for alleged racial discrimination against white and Asian students.
It's Been a Minute
How "race-neutral" can universities really be?
At the same time, Harvard just announced that it'll make tuition free for families with income under $200K as a way to make it more accessible. And that made me wonder, as DEI initiatives are being shut down and hefty legal fines threaten longstanding endowments, why do some of these schools seem to be getting more inclusive?
It's Been a Minute
How "race-neutral" can universities really be?
And more importantly, how are they doing this without racial demographic data? To find out, I'm joined by NPR's Alyssa Nadwarni. Excited to be here. And labor economist Zach Bleamer.
It's Been a Minute
How "race-neutral" can universities really be?
To get into the mysterious world of college admissions and how higher education is finding its way around an upended system.
It's Been a Minute
How "race-neutral" can universities really be?
You know, one theory that I've seen is that, you know, schools figured out that socioeconomic status could be used as a proxy signifier for race. According to the Department of Labor, Black folks, for example, make about 76 cents to a white person's dollar. In what ways does socioeconomic status show up in the admissions process?
It's Been a Minute
How "race-neutral" can universities really be?
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. A lot of people call what you're talking about in that sense, like, quote, unquote, race-neutral alternatives for decision-making. What do you all think about that term, race-neutral alternatives?
It's Been a Minute
How "race-neutral" can universities really be?
I mean, and of course, you know, every student, regardless of race or socioeconomic status, has the capacity to learn, to achieve, to do well and what have you in college. But what you're saying is that these are some ways that policy affects who's getting admitted to college.
It's Been a Minute
How "race-neutral" can universities really be?
Fascinating. Oh, my gosh. I'm sorry. You gave me so much to think about with that. Gosh. Some people have called what you're talking about, even specifically looking at income or zip codes or high schools or whatnot. A lot of people call what you're talking about in that sense, like, quote, unquote, race neutral alternatives for decision making.
It's Been a Minute
How "race-neutral" can universities really be?
What do you all think about that term, race neutral alternatives?
It's Been a Minute
How "race-neutral" can universities really be?
Got it. So affirmative action is asking how to go beyond test scores and include some additional strong candidates that might be able to benefit from higher education.
It's Been a Minute
How "race-neutral" can universities really be?
The legal costs of trying to maintain diversity initiatives in higher education and beyond.
It's Been a Minute
How "race-neutral" can universities really be?
After the Supreme Court banned affirmative action in 2023, many have been curious to see how the ruling would affect college admissions, particularly as it pertains to race.
It's Been a Minute
How "race-neutral" can universities really be?
So I want to introduce some more complexity into the situation here. There's this man, Edward Bloom. He's the head of Students for Fair Admissions, SFFA, and was also the plaintiff in the Supreme Court case that ended affirmative action.
It's Been a Minute
How "race-neutral" can universities really be?
And he has already threatened to sue Yale, Princeton and Duke for using what he calls race neutral alternatives to affirmative action, basically claiming these institutions are still achieving diversity, but in admissions using other signifiers and that that is illegal. But legality aside, why? Why would an elite university put themselves in the position to be investigated?
It's Been a Minute
How "race-neutral" can universities really be?
Like why might an admissions office or admissions officers still pursue diversity if it puts them at legal risk?
It's Been a Minute
How "race-neutral" can universities really be?
Okay, but what about private universities? Why would they implement these policies?
It's Been a Minute
How "race-neutral" can universities really be?
I mean, there's also in this whole conversation, there is an elephant in the room. And yes, I am talking about Republicans, specifically the president and his administration's campaign against diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives, both within the federal government, but also in education. We know that Trump wants to disband the Department of Education.
It's Been a Minute
How "race-neutral" can universities really be?
He recently laid off, I think, over 1,000 department employees and plans to use the Department of Justice's Civil Rights Division to go after private and public companies that explicitly or implicitly uphold DEI in some capacity. I think I just saw this morning that the Trump administration was planning to go after, I think, 50 colleges and universities specifically on the grounds of DEI.
It's Been a Minute
How "race-neutral" can universities really be?
Yes. How does this set the stage for a whole new culture battle in higher education? Like a place where questions about the importance of diversity have been debated, you know, since affirmative action started like over 60 years ago.
It's Been a Minute
Need a laugh in these trying times? 'One of Them Days' is the comedy for you
I have one last thing that I want to say. which is Kiki Palmer needs to be the lead of every movie. Whatever movies are coming out, she could have been the lead in Nosferatu. She could have played it. I'm sorry. She needs to be the lead in every movie. The same way talented young man, but the same way Timothee Chalamet, I feel like every time I turn around, it's a new version of Timothee.
It's Been a Minute
Need a laugh in these trying times? 'One of Them Days' is the comedy for you
You just want to replace Timothee Chalamet with Kiki Palmer. I think actually he would love that. I actually think he would love that. She has that, like, not to quote Eli Wallach from The Holiday, but she has real gumption. And I just, yeah, it's a joy to see her on screen. And I just wish I could see more of her. That's how I feel, basically. That's my main review of One of Them Days.
It's Been a Minute
Need a laugh in these trying times? 'One of Them Days' is the comedy for you
Kiki Palmer, if you're listening, please, whatever you do, do more of it. That was NPR's Aisha Harris, Stephen Thompson, and Corey Antonio Rose. I'm Brittany Luce, and this has been the Pop Culture Happy Hour. It's been a minute collab that I know y'all have been waiting for. You can hear more from Pop Culture Happy Hour every weekday, wherever you get your podcasts.
It's Been a Minute
Need a laugh in these trying times? 'One of Them Days' is the comedy for you
I had fun. I had fun. I feel like the film advertised itself as like a fun, silly movie, and it was a fun, silly movie. I was charmed by SZA. She had a very warm on-screen presence that I was really surprised by, pleasantly surprised by. I had never really known her to act, so I didn't know what to expect. This is her first film role.
It's Been a Minute
Need a laugh in these trying times? 'One of Them Days' is the comedy for you
She did pretty good. And of course, Kiki Palmer, you said that she's one of Hollywood's most charismatic leads, and that is just nothing but true. I thought that she was better than the film, but she's also very frequently better than the film. So I don't know if that's really saying a lot. Very true. And that's not necessarily an insult to the films that she's in. That's just Kiki being Kiki.
It's Been a Minute
Need a laugh in these trying times? 'One of Them Days' is the comedy for you
I will say... It had been, I think the first time I had seen her like in an adult role in a straight up comedy like this. And I was like, I wanted more. I left the film feeling like, okay, I could watch Kiki do this like six times a year. But yeah, I thought that it was a little slapsticky at times. That's not really my jam 100%. But I still felt like it was a lot of fun.
It's Been a Minute
Need a laugh in these trying times? 'One of Them Days' is the comedy for you
They had good chemistry between SZA and Keke Palmer. And also a lot of really great, very solid comedic little roles that were filled by really, really, really great, really funny actors. Like I would see someone like Cat Williams pop up. Or Lil Rel Howery. Oh my gosh, Lil Rel pop up. Now, I will say, sometimes I felt like the movie was getting a little like, it was spinning out a little too much.
It's Been a Minute
Need a laugh in these trying times? 'One of Them Days' is the comedy for you
I felt like at a certain point that Alyssa and Drew should not have been friends anymore. We're going to get to that because I have some questions about that. That was one where I was like, you actually, I think y'all should have ended this movie separated. But this was a lot of fun. All right.
It's Been a Minute
Need a laugh in these trying times? 'One of Them Days' is the comedy for you
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. So y'all probably already know this, but here are two of my favorite things in the whole world. One, I love to go to the movies. And two, I love to talk about movies. So, wow, lucky me.
It's Been a Minute
Need a laugh in these trying times? 'One of Them Days' is the comedy for you
You got problems. You guys are old. Way too old not to understand how credit works.
It's Been a Minute
Need a laugh in these trying times? 'One of Them Days' is the comedy for you
NPR's Pop Culture Happy Hour not only asked me to come on their show and talk about SZA and Keke Palmer's new movie, One of Them Days, they even got me tickets to go see it in theaters. Ah, I love you guys. Pop Culture Happy Hour's Stephen Thompson and Aisha Harris team up with me and my producer, Cory Antonio Rose, for an IBAM and Pop Culture Happy Hour collab.
It's Been a Minute
Need a laugh in these trying times? 'One of Them Days' is the comedy for you
It was hard to even get a demographic breakdown. But I 150% agree. I think that Drew and Alyssa needed to break up. I thought the end of the film, to me, Drew should have kicked Alyssa to the curb. And I think that she really should have focused on her career and also on her love life with this good-looking... That's what I will say. The film's not lacking in good-looking people.
It's Been a Minute
Need a laugh in these trying times? 'One of Them Days' is the comedy for you
Listen, there might have only been a few people in the theater, but there were twice as many hotties on screen. We're going to take a quick break, but when we get back, we're getting into Issa Rae's knack for casting and so much more. We'll be right back.
It's Been a Minute
Need a laugh in these trying times? 'One of Them Days' is the comedy for you
Wait, Courtney, I want to ask you a question. You had mentioned in a chat that we had last week that you were like, I think I had seen the film and you had yet to see it. And you had like some curiosity about like how it was going to speak to like the current moment of being like,
It's Been a Minute
Need a laugh in these trying times? 'One of Them Days' is the comedy for you
black in your 20s and in a city trying to like be on the come up did you feel like it was like relatable in any aspect or that it was like uh speaking in an honest way in in any aspect you know there's a moment at the beginning of the film where they come out or they're they're coming back to their apartment and they see one of their neighbors and he's outside all his stuff on the sidewalks
It's Been a Minute
Need a laugh in these trying times? 'One of Them Days' is the comedy for you
to tell you why this new movie that gets into gentrification, young black womanhood, and the legacy of black comedy is an 85% success. And just so we're all on the same playing field, Stephen is going to give us all a synopsis of this film.
It's Been a Minute
Need a laugh in these trying times? 'One of Them Days' is the comedy for you
Right. Yes.
It's Been a Minute
Need a laugh in these trying times? 'One of Them Days' is the comedy for you
Yes.
It's Been a Minute
Fake skull science is back - and it's still racist
It's so wild to me. I'm kind of concerned about why we would need computers or even more casual TikTok phrenology or physiognomy to tell us about people's qualities that they can't just tell us themselves. But I wonder, what are the possible consequences of this resurgence in phrenology and physiognomy?
It's Been a Minute
Fake skull science is back - and it's still racist
Because something peculiar is happening. To my eye, there's been more interest lately in some of the ideas behind phrenology and physiognomy. From quote-unquote witch skulls and angel skulls, to the skull geometry of transvestigators, to the question of whether AI can detect gay faces, it seems like more and more people want to categorize each other with just a look at their heads.
It's Been a Minute
Fake skull science is back - and it's still racist
Well, Lily, Miles, I really appreciate you all coming on the show today and educating me on all the nuances of our modern day phrenology. I really appreciate it. Thank you both so much.
It's Been a Minute
Fake skull science is back - and it's still racist
Thanks for having me. That was Yale philosophy professor Lily Hu and Rolling Stone culture writer Miles Klee. And I'm going to put on my influencer hat for a minute and ask you to please subscribe to this show on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you're listening. Click follow so you know the latest in culture while it's still hot. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Liam McBain.
It's Been a Minute
Fake skull science is back - and it's still racist
This episode was edited by Nina Patak. Our supervising producer is Barton Girdwood. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
Fake skull science is back - and it's still racist
Here's my chat with Lily and Miles to understand the appeal and consequences of fake skull and face science coming back around in our culture. Even if it might not actually work, I am seeing a lot of that same idea that our skulls or our faces say something about who we are as people pop up in our culture anyway. Miles, where are you seeing that out in the wild?
It's Been a Minute
Fake skull science is back - and it's still racist
Yeah. Talk to me about what some of these posts look like. I mean, you've mentioned the angel versus witch skulls, which already gives me pause. I mean, social connotations of who is angelic versus who's a witch. I could see those readings getting racist real quick. You had a great piece that you wrote for Rolling Stone where there's talk of like herbivore eyes.
It's Been a Minute
Fake skull science is back - and it's still racist
Please talk to me about what these posts look like and how people are engaging in them.
It's Been a Minute
Fake skull science is back - and it's still racist
Right, like Halle Bailey or Anya Taylor-Joy, yeah.
It's Been a Minute
Fake skull science is back - and it's still racist
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. Can the shape of your skull or the look of your face say something deeper about you? Hello. Like if you're a good parent, or if you're smart, or if you're more likely to be a criminal. Well, the answer is no, absolutely not.
It's Been a Minute
Fake skull science is back - and it's still racist
Lily, what do you make of this impulse to categorize faces in this way?
It's Been a Minute
Fake skull science is back - and it's still racist
To get some background, when was phrenology popular and why?
It's Been a Minute
Fake skull science is back - and it's still racist
Yeah, to that point about who's being colonized, I read that scholars believe that there's a pretty direct connection between Andrew Jackson's Indian Removal Act and phrenologists declaring Native Americans as not fit for civil life based on head shape. It's interesting to consider how phrenology and physiognomy justified racism as an answer to these social questions.
It's Been a Minute
Fake skull science is back - and it's still racist
That said, how was phrenology disproved?
It's Been a Minute
Fake skull science is back - and it's still racist
Right. And the scientific consensus is that evidence doesn't support a genetic basis for race or for racial difference in terms of mental capacity either. But I began getting served phrenology content maybe a year or a year and a half ago. I started getting these like posts about Viking-like phenotypes, that language coming up a lot more.
It's Been a Minute
Fake skull science is back - and it's still racist
I mean, phenotype is something I hadn't really thought about since freshman year of high school when I took biology. And for those who need a refresher, phenotype just means how your genes are expressed and how you look. Like for example, I have my dad's nose instead of my mom's nose, even though both are encoded in my genes.
It's Been a Minute
Fake skull science is back - and it's still racist
But I've seen these kinds of like, you know, return type posts about needing more Viking-like things. phenotypes. It just seems like they kind of want more strapping white people. I don't know. Have you seen that kind of stuff as well?
It's Been a Minute
Fake skull science is back - and it's still racist
Coming up, why phrenology is linked to fate and who that hurts.
It's Been a Minute
Fake skull science is back - and it's still racist
But in the past, some scientists used the pseudosciences of phrenology, which studied the skull, and physiognomy, which studied the face, to try to prove that how you look says something about who you are on the inside. Again, it's junk science. Totally fake. However, these junk sciences were used towards some pretty racist ends.
It's Been a Minute
Fake skull science is back - and it's still racist
I also want to zoom out and mention something you said the other day in your pre-interview. There continues to be racial injustice. So long as that's the case, there will always be a population of people, including scientists, who are trying to answer why by saying maybe there's something different about these people. Maybe that explains the disparities.
It's Been a Minute
Fake skull science is back - and it's still racist
Maybe not because we haven't invested into welfare or ongoing sources of deprivation. Maybe because these populations are not fit for modern life. I thought that was a really interesting point.
It's Been a Minute
Fake skull science is back - and it's still racist
You know, what Lily's saying, Miles, makes me think of something that you brought up in your writing in terms of like gender policing. Miles, when you wrote about this, you also discussed the rise of transvestigation.
It's Been a Minute
Fake skull science is back - and it's still racist
For people who don't know, transvestigators are people that take pictures of celebrities or politicians and try to look at their bodies and, yes, skulls to prove that they are trans. As an example, Candace Owens recently has gotten a lot of attention, I think, for her podcast and YouTube channel for... quote unquote, transvestigating Brigitte Macron, the wife of the president of France.
It's Been a Minute
Fake skull science is back - and it's still racist
Miles, in your article about this, you showed a screenshot of people using skull geometry to try to prove that J. Robert Oppenheimer is trans. How does the rise of phrenology tie into biological essentialism and transphobia?
It's Been a Minute
Fake skull science is back - and it's still racist
Phrenologists used to rank people by race, from most to least evolved, just by using the shapes of their skulls. So phrenology is a classic hit now in the pseudosciences. That's Yale professor of philosophy, Lily Hu. She studies social science, race, and machine learning. She's here with me today, along with Rolling Stone culture writer, Miles Klee.
It's Been a Minute
Fake skull science is back - and it's still racist
Right. But the idea that you can tell who is trans by their skull or face is kind of iffy. Again, they're transvestigating people like Oppenheimer. I saw a post where people transvestigated Shrek even. But also this idea of biological inevitability that's kind of undergirding this whole thing.
It's Been a Minute
Fake skull science is back - and it's still racist
also feels very connected to the basically eugenicist idea that some people simply aren't fit to be integrated into society. That idea of biological destiny, it seems like it can be used as a tool to limit people in so many different ways. And unfortunately, we're also seeing some belief in this within the sciences.
It's Been a Minute
Fake skull science is back - and it's still racist
Lily, you mentioned that Stanford researchers published a study that appeared to show that AI could detect Gay faces. I think others have questioned those results, but regardless, I think greater focus on face detection and surveillance just in general might be pushing some of this stuff to the fore. Can you say more about that and its connection to phrenology and physiognomy?
It's Been a Minute
Bad Bunny & the battle for Puerto Rico
Also, when compared to how colonialism played out in the archipelago of Hawaii. Which she also mentions in the album. Right, which she has an entire song about on the album.
It's Been a Minute
Bad Bunny & the battle for Puerto Rico
In thinking about what could potentially happen if the relationship between Puerto Rico and the United States did escalate to statehood, I would feel very strangely about someone like Logan Paul.
It's Been a Minute
Bad Bunny & the battle for Puerto Rico
But this album is way more than just good beats. In the sounds of the Cuatro and the call and response of the Plena, Bad Bunny is highlighting Puerto Rico's complicated political history and present. He sings about gentrification on the island, the neglected infrastructure, and the possibility of Puerto Rican independence.
It's Been a Minute
Bad Bunny & the battle for Puerto Rico
I'm sorry, I'm absorbing everything that you all have said. So much of what you both are saying and also how sometimes I feel connected to parts of this album are almost like it'll strike a chord within me, not being from Puerto Rico, not being Puerto Rican, and not being part of the Puerto Rican diaspora, is that when my husband and I started dating,
It's Been a Minute
Bad Bunny & the battle for Puerto Rico
And we were going home to visit each other's families. He's from Puerto Rico and I'm from the Detroit area. And both of us kind of seeing when we went to visit each other, what long-term disinvestment in people looks like. And what long-term disinvestment in a place that perhaps people think doesn't have a lot of value looks like.
It's Been a Minute
Bad Bunny & the battle for Puerto Rico
And over time, things have changed drastically, both in Detroit and also in Puerto Rico. Just seeing things change rapidly around you. I feel sometimes like I am losing contact with a version of the world that I knew or the Detroit area that I grew up in. And that is something that I think
It's Been a Minute
Bad Bunny & the battle for Puerto Rico
Unfortunately, how El Apagón from Un Verano Sin Ti or this album in general is resonating with people all across Latin America. But I also wouldn't be surprised as we continue to see this roll out if this is something that also resonates across to other people of color across the United States who are also being displaced in major cities.
It's Been a Minute
Bad Bunny & the battle for Puerto Rico
You know, one of the symbols of the album is the sapo concho. Right. A frog that is indigenous to Puerto Rico and that is kind of like the mascot for this album.
It's Been a Minute
Bad Bunny & the battle for Puerto Rico
That was writer and literary translator Karina Del Valle-Shorsky and the host of the podcast La Brega, Alana Casanova Burgess. And for those who want to hear the album live, Bad Bunny just announced a 21-day residency in Puerto Rico titled No Me Quiero Ir De Aqui, or I Don't Want To Leave Here. The first nine shows of the residency will be exclusive to residents of the island.
It's Been a Minute
Bad Bunny & the battle for Puerto Rico
This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Barton Girdwood, Alexis Williams, Liam McBain, Corey Antonio Rose. This episode was edited by Jasmine Romero. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
Bad Bunny & the battle for Puerto Rico
Is that who the community college in New York is named after? Hostos? Yes, girl. I didn't know that! In a time where speaking out about politics feels like a minefield for artists, Debí Tirar Más Fotos has come out swinging. So I called up writer Karina Del Valle-Shorsky. A delight. And the host of the podcast La Brega, Alana Casanova-Burgess. Thank you for having me.
It's Been a Minute
Bad Bunny & the battle for Puerto Rico
To get into Bad Bunny's Ode to the Island and to break down if this nostalgia is for something being lost or something being taken. What's been happening in Puerto Rico recently that makes this album so potent right now?
It's Been a Minute
Bad Bunny & the battle for Puerto Rico
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. What are some of the assumptions that people should be aware of coming into this album? Mm.
It's Been a Minute
Bad Bunny & the battle for Puerto Rico
To that point, Bad Bunny has called this album his most Puerto Rican album. I wonder, what are some songs or references made in this album that really stood out to you as quintessentially Puerto Rican?
It's Been a Minute
Bad Bunny & the battle for Puerto Rico
Right. For listeners who don't know, Puerto Rico's beaches are, by law, supposed to be open to the public. But luxury hotels and investors, possibly lured in by tax incentives, have been coming in and building on the coast, which not only affects the environment, but also displaces locals and stops them from accessing a beach that's always previously been available to them.
It's Been a Minute
Bad Bunny & the battle for Puerto Rico
I was just going to say, is it kind of like the cowboy is thought of here?
It's Been a Minute
Bad Bunny & the battle for Puerto Rico
Like a real kind of person, but also like a mythical figure. Yes, exactly.
It's Been a Minute
Bad Bunny & the battle for Puerto Rico
People were asking that question a lot the past couple of years, just off of Beyonce's past two albums.
It's Been a Minute
Bad Bunny & the battle for Puerto Rico
If you somehow haven't heard, Bad Bunny's latest album, Debí Tirar Más Fotos, has me, the charts, social media, and Puerto Rico in a frenzy. For non-Spanish speakers, the album's title translates to, I should have taken more photos. And there's a deep nostalgia that's palpable beyond the album's title.
It's Been a Minute
Bad Bunny & the battle for Puerto Rico
As in the literal status of the island, like whether the island should continue to be a territory of the U.S. or should become a U.S. state or should become an independent nation. Bad Bunny has thoughts about all of it when we get back.
It's Been a Minute
Bad Bunny & the battle for Puerto Rico
You mentioned, Alana, that he's a very intentional artist, and it sounds like both in some of the major ways that he's expressed his politics and also, I mean, in real life, and then also through his art, especially on this album, there is a lot of intentionality with how he's approaching a lot of these references and thinking through things. But I want to kind of zoom out a little bit.
It's Been a Minute
Bad Bunny & the battle for Puerto Rico
A lot of our listeners are based in the mainland United States, and... may not, for various reasons, understand the relationship between Puerto Rico and the United States. What are some of the assumptions that people should be aware of coming into this album?
It's Been a Minute
Bad Bunny & the battle for Puerto Rico
It's a rich, sonic, cultural text that blends traditional Puerto Rican genres like salsa and the pulsating reggaeton Bad Bunny is known for.
It's Been a Minute
Bad Bunny & the battle for Puerto Rico
As in the literal status of the island, like whether the island should continue to be a territory of the U.S. or should become a U.S. state or should become an independent nation.
It's Been a Minute
Bad Bunny & the battle for Puerto Rico
Yeah, like in the triangle with the white star in the middle.
It's Been a Minute
Bad Bunny & the battle for Puerto Rico
Is that who the community college in New York is named after? Hostos? Yes, girl. I didn't know that. Okay, go ahead.
It's Been a Minute
A tale of murder, artificial intelligence, & forgiveness
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. Hello. The other day I was scrolling NPR's homepage and I saw a story that absolutely stopped me in my tracks. An AI video of a manslaughter victim was used to address his killer in a court of law.
It's Been a Minute
A tale of murder, artificial intelligence, & forgiveness
Now, what's so interesting to me about this story is that it feels like the start of a new relationship between AI and the law.
It's Been a Minute
A tale of murder, artificial intelligence, & forgiveness
I want to know, how will it change our relationship to the law? And what are the broader impacts we might see on our culture?
It's Been a Minute
A tale of murder, artificial intelligence, & forgiveness
I'm joined by Juliana, who you just heard. Hi there. And Professor Brandon Blankenship, an assistant professor and director of the pre-law program at the University of Alabama at Birmingham.
It's Been a Minute
A tale of murder, artificial intelligence, & forgiveness
So, Juliana, tell me the rest of the story of this AI video. Why did Stacey feel so strongly about making it?
It's Been a Minute
A tale of murder, artificial intelligence, & forgiveness
Interesting. Okay. So why is this different from other attempts to bring AI into the courtroom? Brandon, I'd love to hear from you.
It's Been a Minute
A tale of murder, artificial intelligence, & forgiveness
The law, though, is ultimately about how we relate to each other as human beings, like person to person. And AI is famously not human. So what would it mean for AI to get more into the legal mix than just this one case, this one time?
It's Been a Minute
A tale of murder, artificial intelligence, & forgiveness
Are there other cans of worms this opens up?
It's Been a Minute
A tale of murder, artificial intelligence, & forgiveness
Coming up, the broader implications of AI renderings after death, both in and out of the courtroom.
It's Been a Minute
A tale of murder, artificial intelligence, & forgiveness
Are there other cans of worms this opens up?
It's Been a Minute
A tale of murder, artificial intelligence, & forgiveness
So I called up NPR digital news reporter Juliana Kim to learn more about what happened.
It's Been a Minute
A tale of murder, artificial intelligence, & forgiveness
Do you think there might be cultural impacts if posthumous AI in or out of court becomes more common?
It's Been a Minute
A tale of murder, artificial intelligence, & forgiveness
That's an aspect of this that makes everything so complex to me. I mean, to be honest, it's hard for me to know how to feel about this. I'm glad it gave Chris Pelkey's sister closure and their family closure.
It's Been a Minute
A tale of murder, artificial intelligence, & forgiveness
In my own life, I've had a friend pass away and another friend used AI to remake a really beautiful photo of them in a way that was very heartwarming and very comforting and very soothing and really celebratory. And so I understand how that works.
It's Been a Minute
A tale of murder, artificial intelligence, & forgiveness
But on the other hand, like, I wonder if there are further ethical implications, you know, we should think about as a culture before using this tech more in our courts. Personally, I would only trust like one or two people to speak for my views after my passing.
It's Been a Minute
A tale of murder, artificial intelligence, & forgiveness
And I would never want AI to speak for me, even though, I mean, there's like probably thousands of hours, I'm sure out in the world at this point of me running my mouth, they might be able to build a pretty good learning machine based upon things that I've already said. But I could see in other cases, a family using AI to speak for a victim in ways they wouldn't want in court. Yeah.
It's Been a Minute
A tale of murder, artificial intelligence, & forgiveness
Wow. These are things I never thought I'd have to think about. But you raise a very good point, Brandon. Gosh, thank you both so much. I really appreciate this conversation. Thanks for having me. Thank you for having me. That was NPR digital reporter Juliana Kim and Brandon Blankenship, assistant professor at the University of Alabama at Birmingham.
It's Been a Minute
A tale of murder, artificial intelligence, & forgiveness
And I'm going to put on my influencer hat for a second and ask you to please subscribe to this show on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you're listening. Click follow so you know the latest in culture while it's still hot. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Liam McBain. This episode was edited by Nina Potok. Our supervising producer is Barton Girdwood.
It's Been a Minute
A tale of murder, artificial intelligence, & forgiveness
Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
"Gender is a negotiation" whether you realize it or not.
To your point about the possibility that the things that you write about, things that you're thinking about could be weaponized. I mean, I get the sense from reading your work that you cover a lot of stuff that perhaps trans people don't always want to talk about in mixed company. Yeah. And to a certain degree, I get that. In a way, being at NPR for me is being in mixed company.
It's Been a Minute
"Gender is a negotiation" whether you realize it or not.
This show has a really wide, diverse audience with all kinds of people, which I love, but it's a very different experience than the kinds of shows I worked on in the past. For years, I hosted shows that were primarily speaking to Black audiences. And so, you know, I felt free to talk about certain things without adding as much context.
It's Been a Minute
"Gender is a negotiation" whether you realize it or not.
But even now, you know, sometimes it's worth saying something a little spicy or getting into a conversation that might, you know, not be so cut and dry because I value having a certain conversation more than the possibility of non-Black people being in Black people businesses. But I see you having this like very rich line of inquiry into all of these taboo topics.
It's Been a Minute
"Gender is a negotiation" whether you realize it or not.
And it feels like a bid that it's worth discussion. Like you say, it might help somebody, it might free somebody. Talk to me more about how you value, you know, getting into it more than you're worried about anybody or any haters, let's say, weaponizing it.
It's Been a Minute
"Gender is a negotiation" whether you realize it or not.
So I want to start with the epigraph of this book, your letter to the reader before the book even begins. And in it, you say, what interests me, what has always interested me is the binary between cis and trans. Where is the line? Is it even a binary? Talk to me about that. And what about that binary needs some investigation?
It's Been a Minute
"Gender is a negotiation" whether you realize it or not.
Yeah, let's talk about that story called Infect Your Friends and Loved Ones, if you don't mind giving us a synopsis.
It's Been a Minute
"Gender is a negotiation" whether you realize it or not.
First of all, I want to say you were in your bag writing this genre. I just want to say I was like the pages turned themselves. I think it's really interesting to make a world where everyone must choose. But in that world, it's still a very constrained choice.
It's Been a Minute
"Gender is a negotiation" whether you realize it or not.
It's not like a utopia of gender where, you know, everyone can kind of pick and choose as they wish because it's hard for people to get some of these hormones. Talk to me more about that. Like why having to choose and getting to choose are different things.
It's Been a Minute
"Gender is a negotiation" whether you realize it or not.
You know, I hate to bring politics up because I enjoyed your book and was interested in your thoughts before this new administration, but... We live in a country now where trans people can't change their gender markers on their passports. And there have been executive orders aimed at restricting health care and sports participation for trans people.
It's Been a Minute
"Gender is a negotiation" whether you realize it or not.
The T has been cut out of LGBT on things like the Stonewall National Monument website, which I'm like, wouldn't be no Stonewall without the T. It's an erasure. Yeah. Given all that. You started the book with the question, what does it even mean to be trans? Does that question have a different dimension to it now?
It's Been a Minute
"Gender is a negotiation" whether you realize it or not.
Right. I will spell it out for them in case they don't have Google handy. V-coding is the practice of placing trans women in cells with male prisoners as a reward or a form of social control that hinges on trans women being raped.
It's Been a Minute
"Gender is a negotiation" whether you realize it or not.
Tori, thank you so much. Thank you for this conversation. This was really great.
It's Been a Minute
"Gender is a negotiation" whether you realize it or not.
That was Tori Peters. She's the author of the book Stag Dance, which is out now. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Liam McBain. This episode was edited by Nina Potok. Our supervising producer is Barton Girdwood. We had fact-checking help from Barclay Walsh and Gerald L. Cohen. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini.
It's Been a Minute
"Gender is a negotiation" whether you realize it or not.
All right, that's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
"Gender is a negotiation" whether you realize it or not.
Hmm. Well, let's get into Stag Dance, specifically the titular story. Can you give the listeners a short synopsis?
It's Been a Minute
"Gender is a negotiation" whether you realize it or not.
A warning, this segment contains references to sex, sexuality, and rape. Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident.
It's Been a Minute
"Gender is a negotiation" whether you realize it or not.
I'm really glad to hear you describe this as your Americana Western story, because I want to shout out how incredible the language was throughout that novella. It was all in this old-timey vernacular, and it gave such a clear picture of the world that the characters were in. It gave me such a clear picture inside Babe, the main character's mind.
It's Been a Minute
"Gender is a negotiation" whether you realize it or not.
The thing I was really interested in with Stag Dance was how Babe came to understand his feelings about gender without having... any of the modern language that we have. But even when there are no available words for Babe to understand his desires, he goes on desiring to feel feminine anyway. In what ways does our language around gender today help people to understand themselves?
It's Been a Minute
"Gender is a negotiation" whether you realize it or not.
And in what ways does it fail at explanation?
It's Been a Minute
"Gender is a negotiation" whether you realize it or not.
You mentioned that Babe is the biggest, strongest, ugliest person in the entire logging camp. There was a lot of discussion of Babe's looks. And Babe's actually a mean nickname because, you know, he's described as looking like Babe the Blue Ox, like Paul Bunyan's ox. It hurt my heart a little bit every time I saw, you know, this character respond to that name.
It's Been a Minute
"Gender is a negotiation" whether you realize it or not.
But there's another person at the camp who's also going to the stag dance as a lady. named Leeson, who's smaller, prettier, more feminine. I understand that this is kind of taboo to discuss, like who passes less naturally, or as my producer Liam tells me, you know, calling someone quote unquote bricky. Why was it compelling to you or interesting to you to explore that?
It's Been a Minute
"Gender is a negotiation" whether you realize it or not.
That makes me think also about how like in the 1960s and 70s, they mostly let people who were thought to be People who could pass easily get gender reassignment surgery. That also affects who we understand as trans historically.
It's Been a Minute
"Gender is a negotiation" whether you realize it or not.
My guest today is a repeat guest for the show.
It's Been a Minute
"Gender is a negotiation" whether you realize it or not.
Coming up, why Tori keeps writing about contentious topics within the trans community, even with increased scrutiny on trans people.
It's Been a Minute
"Gender is a negotiation" whether you realize it or not.
That's author Tori Peters. She came on It's Been a Minute in 2021 to talk about her last book called Detransition Baby. It was a blockbuster of a novel that brought trans literature to a huge audience. And let me tell you, Tori is not afraid to ask the pointed questions about gender and our culture's relationship to it. Like, what does it even mean to be trans?
It's Been a Minute
"Gender is a negotiation" whether you realize it or not.
I want to talk about two of your stories together, The Chaser and The Masker. Could you give quick synopses of each of those?
It's Been a Minute
"Gender is a negotiation" whether you realize it or not.
I felt a little Tinge of Dawson's Creek in there.
It's Been a Minute
"Gender is a negotiation" whether you realize it or not.
So the reason I want to talk about these together is because they both deal in the ambiguity of gender and sexuality. In The Chaser, you mentioned there's this teen boy who knows his roommate has some kind of gender going on and he likes it.
It's Been a Minute
"Gender is a negotiation" whether you realize it or not.
But also in The Masker, the main character has to decide whether his fetish for dressing himself up in feminine clothes is connected to a desire to be a woman or not. And I know that this is also contentious to discuss as well.
It's Been a Minute
"Gender is a negotiation" whether you realize it or not.
Yeah. Trans people have been accused of only transitioning as part of a fetish, even if they're just trying to live mundane lives in a different gender. But at the same time, gender and sexuality are somewhat interlinked. What did you want to explore about where those two things connect, gender and sexuality?
It's Been a Minute
"Gender is a negotiation" whether you realize it or not.
And what if all of us, cis and trans, had to choose our genders? That's exactly what she dives into in her new book called Stag Dance. It's a collection of four novellas. I'm here with Tori to explore the nuances of gender, desire, and performance, and the stakes of writing this book in our current political climate.
It's Been a Minute
Nickel Boys gives a new point of view to the Civil Rights era
That's Rommel Ross, director of the film Nickel Boys. It's based on the book The Nickel Boys by Colson Whitehead, a book that's sometimes been called unadaptable because of its unique mix of perspective and metaphor. Now, the film adaptation is nominated for two Oscars, including Best Picture.
It's Been a Minute
Nickel Boys gives a new point of view to the Civil Rights era
Hmm. Hmm. Well, thank you so much for making such a heartbreaking and also beautiful film. And thank you so much for talking with me today. I really appreciate it so much. Thank you.
It's Been a Minute
Nickel Boys gives a new point of view to the Civil Rights era
That was Rommel Ross, director of Nickel Boys. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Alexis Williams. This episode was edited by Jasmine Romero. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
Nickel Boys gives a new point of view to the Civil Rights era
The film follows the lives of two black boys, Elwood and Turner, who meet at Nickel Academy, an abusive reform school in Tallahassee, Florida. The entire film is shot in first person, which I will say takes some getting used to, but within the first few minutes of watching the movie, I felt immersed in a way that felt deeply personal.
It's Been a Minute
Nickel Boys gives a new point of view to the Civil Rights era
Maybe the most refreshing thing about the film is the way it depicts violence. As audience members, we're so used to seeing the horrors of that time period and brutality against Black people, but Nickel Boys takes a different approach.
It's Been a Minute
Nickel Boys gives a new point of view to the Civil Rights era
Today, Rommel Ross joins me.
It's Been a Minute
Nickel Boys gives a new point of view to the Civil Rights era
to get at the core of what makes Nickel Boys a profoundly new portrait of Black life in the Jim Crow South. We talk about the legacy of Black trauma films and how a different point of view, behind and on camera, made all the difference.
It's Been a Minute
Nickel Boys gives a new point of view to the Civil Rights era
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. When you think of the civil rights era, what comes to mind? Do you hear the sounds of bus boycotts and sit-ins? Maybe you think of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. giving a speech.
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Nickel Boys gives a new point of view to the Civil Rights era
It's not contextless.
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Nickel Boys gives a new point of view to the Civil Rights era
Bearing in mind this thought that you just shared around context, subjectivity, perspective, framing when it comes to how Black people have been depicted through imagery and since the camera, right? I wonder what does filming in first person add to a film about this era?
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Nickel Boys gives a new point of view to the Civil Rights era
Shout out Jomo for a fantastic cinematographer.
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Nickel Boys gives a new point of view to the Civil Rights era
But also for those of us who are not filmmakers, who are simply film goers, and there's way more of us, we also understand that language and it becomes cultural shorthand for all of us. And it also kind of goes out of your control as a filmmaker once it hits the audience as well.
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Nickel Boys gives a new point of view to the Civil Rights era
Right. And that makes sense then, shooting Nickel Boys and POV, showing these not just Black people, but Black children who are in this extremely vulnerable position in this so-called reformatory school in the South in the 1960s. There's already so much in that setting that is working against these main characters that
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Nickel Boys gives a new point of view to the Civil Rights era
And when you consider the visual language that a lot of Hollywood or a lot of filmmakers rely upon when showing Black people in this way, it seems like this film is a really interesting intervention for that. Thinking about that, I also want to talk about The way that you and your crew chose to depict violence in this film.
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Nickel Boys gives a new point of view to the Civil Rights era
Because the film is shot in POV, we rarely see physical violence enacted on the characters. We instead see what they're seeing, you know, the floor, window pane, the backs of their classmates' heads. We'll hear the sound of a leather strap hitting someone's skin. We will hear... like a droning, chilling fan, just like worrying in the background.
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Nickel Boys gives a new point of view to the Civil Rights era
You managed to capture the insecurity and trauma of experiencing violence without showing it explicitly. Talk to me about why and how you chose this approach.
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Nickel Boys gives a new point of view to the Civil Rights era
These are the images that history books and Hollywood have made the calling cards of an era. And that is a pretty accurate interpretation of the time. But missing in all that conflict and struggle is the mundane, the quotidian, the average everyday life of Black Americans simply trying to live. And that's something director Rommel Ross hadn't seen. The story of Black people through our own eyes.
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Nickel Boys gives a new point of view to the Civil Rights era
That's such a good point. I guess you're trying to show the audience something, but I feel like you really pushed past that to get me into feeling like the character in a way that's much different
It's Been a Minute
Nickel Boys gives a new point of view to the Civil Rights era
Coming up, why do we see certain kinds of Black stories at the Oscars year after year?
It's Been a Minute
Nickel Boys gives a new point of view to the Civil Rights era
Rommel Ross's take on Black trauma films and why the conversation is necessary.
It's Been a Minute
Nickel Boys gives a new point of view to the Civil Rights era
I imagine you're aware of all the never-ending discourse about Black trauma films, this idea that most or even all theatrically released films about Black people are stories about racist violence. And by the numbers, this obviously isn't true. There are still plenty of Black movies telling happy or contemporary stories. Yeah. Talk right now.
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Nickel Boys gives a new point of view to the Civil Rights era
One of them days was number one in box offices just recently. But I do think that this assumption about Black trauma films being most of what Black filmmaking is, is based on something real about how damaging bad movies about racism or bad movies about our history can be. What do you think about this discussion? And was it something on your mind during the making of Nickel Boys?
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Nickel Boys gives a new point of view to the Civil Rights era
You know, I was really moved by how much visual beauty there was throughout the film. There's a lot of pain, there's a lot of brutality, there's a lot of violence, but you see what a day looks like from the perspective of the main character, Elwood, and it makes you mourn with him for the community that he was snatched away from when he was sent to Nickel.
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Nickel Boys gives a new point of view to the Civil Rights era
And often in period pieces, something that sometimes it don't bother you, sometimes it does, you get a sense for what's happening out in the world, but you don't always get a sense of a character's daily life. I felt like I both understood the world that Elwood lived in, but I also understood his community.
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Nickel Boys gives a new point of view to the Civil Rights era
I also understood what he thought was fun and interesting and beautiful, what mattered to him on the individual level. And so much of it was him appreciating and noticing what was beautiful in his world. And I wonder, in a film with so much heaviness, how do you see the function of beauty?
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Who gets to be a critic? And why are some so "bad?"
That reminds me of one of the lines in your book. You said, the critic owes her allegiance to human beings.
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Who gets to be a critic? And why are some so "bad?"
But she also asks, what kind of authority do critics have? And do we need to rethink what criticism should do for us? All right, here's my conversation with Andrea. Let's get critical. To get right into it, you say art can exist for art's sake, but criticism has a job to do.
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Who gets to be a critic? And why are some so "bad?"
Thank you so much for your book and thank you so much for joining us.
It's Been a Minute
Who gets to be a critic? And why are some so "bad?"
That was writer and critic Andrea Long Chu. Her new book, Authority, is out now. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Liam McBain. This episode was edited by Nina Potok. Our supervising producer is Barton Girdwood. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR.
It's Been a Minute
Who gets to be a critic? And why are some so "bad?"
I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
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Who gets to be a critic? And why are some so "bad?"
And in one of your essays, you write that the job of criticism is to give art context rather than art providing the context for itself. I'm really interested in how you do that job. I know that you do a pretty exhaustive deep dive into your subjects. You know, that for book reviews, you read the book you're reviewing and pretty much
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Who gets to be a critic? And why are some so "bad?"
everything else that the author has written plus all their interviews about their work. So how do you look past what people might say about their own writing to understand what they're really saying with their writing?
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Who gets to be a critic? And why are some so "bad?"
Say more about that. What do you mean it's for them?
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Who gets to be a critic? And why are some so "bad?"
Yeah, when you say that you feel like artists or writers may not be aware of what they're doing, is it that they're too close to the subject? Yeah.
It's Been a Minute
Who gets to be a critic? And why are some so "bad?"
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. for a blog that was about watching episodes of Sex and the City?
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Who gets to be a critic? And why are some so "bad?"
You spend a lot of time, as I said, trying to get like really deep into what they think they're doing. But also one of the threads that really comes through is desire, not just in the romantic sense or in the sexual sense, but basically like what people want, why they want it and how that shapes both art and politics.
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Who gets to be a critic? And why are some so "bad?"
You wrote an essay about a bunch of recent books that use mixed race Asian characters to kind of talk about what makes them. I'm an Asian American person, Asian American or not. And you come to the conclusion that for Asian Americans, including mixed ones, the identity isn't made totally of genetics or food or upbringing. You write that it's also about choosing to be part of Asian America.
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Who gets to be a critic? And why are some so "bad?"
I'll paraphrase something that you said. People want race. They want race to win them something, to tell them something they were never told. And sometimes they just want to be something or have something to be. Many people across the country are choosing and it is enough for now to ask why. That is just one example, which is like fab example.
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Who gets to be a critic? And why are some so "bad?"
Even like I was reading that and I was like, it opened up a little door in my brain to be like, what? Why did I choose to go to Howard University as the only school that I applied to out of state? But throughout the book, that is something that you are unafraid of even unmasking within yourself. Why do you take care to understand desire in that way?
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Who gets to be a critic? And why are some so "bad?"
To bring it back to sort of like your criticism, you see that showing up across a lot of the things that you are reading or watching or criticizing?
It's Been a Minute
Who gets to be a critic? And why are some so "bad?"
Coming up, do we need to rethink what we get out of criticism? And what authority do critics really have?
It's Been a Minute
Who gets to be a critic? And why are some so "bad?"
I loved it. I loved it. That's Andrea Long Chu. Once one of my favorite Sex and the City bloggers, now a Pulitzer Prize winning critic. And you know what? I wasn't surprised by the news of her win in 2023. She lends her critical eye to everything from the TV show Yellowstone to the work of Sally Rooney to pro-Palestinian protests and free speech. And she does it with wit, style, and fearlessness.
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Who gets to be a critic? And why are some so "bad?"
So I want to turn now from your art criticism to your political criticism and your criticism of criticism itself. It's all kind of bound up together. But let's talk about one of the new essays you wrote for this book called Criticism in a Crisis. And you go back into history and look at all the ways there's always some crisis or another in criticism. And there's a lot of hand-wringing.
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Who gets to be a critic? And why are some so "bad?"
I wonder what quote-unquote crisis are we in now? And why has criticism sort of always been in crisis?
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Who gets to be a critic? And why are some so "bad?"
Oh, of course, because critics, like the ones whose writing made it to the papers, those were historically mostly men.
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Who gets to be a critic? And why are some so "bad?"
Okay, so one of the things you discuss is that criticism with traditional authority almost always insists upon its own political importance. You write, and I'll paraphrase, we are almost shocked at how often the critics of every age have compared bad criticism to bad citizenship until we remember how often we are told today that criticism prepares us to be global citizens.
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Who gets to be a critic? And why are some so "bad?"
In this regard, criticism has long been an apprenticeship to in thoughtful obedience. Its grand historical function has been to make a world without authority entirely inconceivable. A bar.
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Who gets to be a critic? And why are some so "bad?"
Like, if you've ever read Andrea Longchu, you know she is eviscerating people in some of these pages. Andrea is here today because some of her best writing has been collected into a book called Authority. It's a lot of her published essays and two new ones. In this book and our conversation, she has given me so many new ways to look at art, from highbrow literature to lowbrow TV.
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Who gets to be a critic? And why are some so "bad?"
Like, I feel like you're saying that some criticism might even be part of what writer Alex V. Green calls the having conversations industrial complex, where having conversations again and again is all that happens and no political change occurs. Yeah.
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Who gets to be a critic? And why are some so "bad?"
You know, the thing about authority is that people expect critics to have it, but you don't think critics actually need that kind of authority. Why not?
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Is The Squad dead? Cori Bush on the future of progressive politics
Well, Representative Bush, thank you so much.
It's Been a Minute
Is The Squad dead? Cori Bush on the future of progressive politics
That was former Congressional Representative Cori Bush. Up until last week, she represented St. Louis, Missouri in Congress. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Barton Girdwood. This episode was edited by Jasmine Romero. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini.
It's Been a Minute
Is The Squad dead? Cori Bush on the future of progressive politics
I'm Brittany Luce, and I'll be back Friday with another brand new episode of It's Been a Minute. See you soon.
It's Been a Minute
Is The Squad dead? Cori Bush on the future of progressive politics
And that's how I found out. It was clear that she was going to lose the race to her opponent, Democrat Wesley Bell. The primary between Cori Bush and Bell was the second most expensive primary in the history of this country, with close to $9 million of Super PAC money being spent on attack ads against Bush.
It's Been a Minute
Is The Squad dead? Cori Bush on the future of progressive politics
A majority of that money came from the American-Israel Public Affairs Committee, better known as AIPAC. Bush vocally pushed for a ceasefire in Gaza during her time in office. And during her primary, AIPAC's funds were used to make political attack ads that used distorted images of Bush, like a bigger forehead and elongated features, that she called out as racist.
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Is The Squad dead? Cori Bush on the future of progressive politics
Here's the thing, though. Bush wasn't alone. Over in New York, Jamal Bowman lost his primary, too. Both Bush and Bowman were members of the Squad, a group of young, progressive Democrats that, to many, represented the party's future. But last year, the squad lost 25% of its members, which is why I wanted to sit down with former congressional representative Cori Bush.
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Is The Squad dead? Cori Bush on the future of progressive politics
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. Hello, Representative Bush. Hi, Brittany. How are you?
It's Been a Minute
Is The Squad dead? Cori Bush on the future of progressive politics
I wanted to know what happened to the squad. Is it fizzling out? And is there a future for their vision of progressive politics? To flash back to your rise to Congress, progressivism seemed like it was growing in popularity at that point. There was the blue wave in the 2018 midterms, and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez had ousted a moderate Democratic incumbent.
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Is The Squad dead? Cori Bush on the future of progressive politics
In the 2020 election, when you were elected, just think about the progressive policies that all the candidates who were running for the Democratic presidential ticket used to tout. from packing the court to the Green New Deal. I mean, Bernie Sanders seemed to have a shot at winning the nomination. But here we are, almost five years later, and progressives seem to have lost momentum.
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Is The Squad dead? Cori Bush on the future of progressive politics
I mean, that seems to be the vibe, at least, just taking a vibe check of things. Your voices and positions don't seem to be cutting through like they used to.
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Is The Squad dead? Cori Bush on the future of progressive politics
You know, looking at the election 2024, I would say that conservatism in many ways won out. This is not just something that we're seeing that's on the rise in politics, but like all across culture. You know, I'm thinking about the rise of, say, traditional wife content online or the dominance of country music. It seems like conservatism is what is really hitting with people.
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Is The Squad dead? Cori Bush on the future of progressive politics
This is Cori Bush. And up until last Friday, she was a Democratic congresswoman representing St. Louis, Missouri. But today, she's back to being activist Cori Bush, organizer Cori Bush, private citizen Cori Bush. That's because last Friday, a new Congress began. And last summer, she lost her bid for re-election. And yeah, I know, the losers rarely get to write history.
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Is The Squad dead? Cori Bush on the future of progressive politics
And lining that up with the fact that Donald Trump won reelection and Republicans won both chambers of Congress online. Do you think that, by and large, progressive policies are really what the public wants right now or is asking for?
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Is The Squad dead? Cori Bush on the future of progressive politics
I wonder, what do you think is causing that disconnect? A lot of voters don't seem to be receiving that message. And there are some voters who went for the Democrats, voted for Biden and Harris in 2020, and voted for Trump and Vance in 2024, feeling like their concerns around the cost of groceries, for example, are heard. What's beneath that?
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Is The Squad dead? Cori Bush on the future of progressive politics
You know, there's a lot of hand-wringing, as I'm sure you know, happening over what Democrats should do next. People are saying Democrats need to let go of identity politics. Some are saying that Democrats should be more moderate and adopt some conservatism. I wonder, what do you think? Based on how voters voted, how do you think Democrats should organize?
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Is The Squad dead? Cori Bush on the future of progressive politics
But in this case, I think this loser and her story are a perfect case study for understanding why Democrats, and by extension, progressives, lost the House, the Senate, and the White House. Let's go back a few months to last August.
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Is The Squad dead? Cori Bush on the future of progressive politics
So is that actually who you are? Really quick, I want to step aside and note that following the election, there was a lot of commentary and debate over whether Democrats should abandon so-called identity politics. And I wanted to know, should they?
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Is The Squad dead? Cori Bush on the future of progressive politics
The former representative's answer after a quick break.
It's Been a Minute
Is The Squad dead? Cori Bush on the future of progressive politics
Before we get back to the conversation, I want to remind you that this episode is out on a Wednesday because It's Been a Minute is now publishing three days a week. There are new episodes every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. It's my New Year's present to you. Hope you like it. Now, back to my burning question for Cori Bush. I have a question.
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Is The Squad dead? Cori Bush on the future of progressive politics
You know, as a black woman, I'm curious what your thoughts are on the future of identity politics. That is something I know you've heard it. It's come up time and time again in these weeks and months following the election. You've heard it as much as I have, probably even a thousand times more about how Democrats should move away from identity politics or so-called identity politics.
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Is The Squad dead? Cori Bush on the future of progressive politics
What do you think about the future of identity politics? Are they still serving the Democratic Party or or is there still room for them within the Democratic Party?
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Is The Squad dead? Cori Bush on the future of progressive politics
The dust is settling after one of the toughest races we've seen in the state, perhaps in the country. This big primary, a lot of outside money coming into the St. Louis area to help Wesley Bell unseat Cori Bush. It's Tuesday, August 6th.
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Is The Squad dead? Cori Bush on the future of progressive politics
That makes me think about how you got into politics in the first place. You, as you have described in other interviews and in your book, are not a cookie cutter establishment politician who came up through all of the traditional halls of power. You got into politics basically Because you were an organizer. Because of what happened in Ferguson, Missouri in 2014.
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Is The Squad dead? Cori Bush on the future of progressive politics
You know, there are so many moments after that, which culminated in the Black Lives Matter movement, which, you know, importantly, you were elected on the heels of. You were elected right after. Ferguson is something... people don't talk about as much anymore because there are, unfortunately, sadly, so many other names we've had to learn in the time since. Black Lives Matter has faded.
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Is The Squad dead? Cori Bush on the future of progressive politics
A lot of people are losing faith that movements or institutions can better their lives. As someone who just spent a lot of time within one of our biggest institutions, what do you say to people losing faith that change can come?
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Is The Squad dead? Cori Bush on the future of progressive politics
Primary results are rolling in and the reality is setting in for Bush's reelection team.
It's Been a Minute
Is The Squad dead? Cori Bush on the future of progressive politics
Representative Bush, I watched the few times that you've addressed the public since your loss back in August, and you still seem like you've got more battles left to fight, like you've got some more fight in you to go. I'm wondering what is next for you?
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The fantasy vs. reality of Trump's "smokestack nostalgia"
And I'll say, you know, being from the Rust Belt and like driving to visit family, you can see, right, that industry has left a lot of these places. I don't think that people are wrong, right, for having the notion that like manufacturing has disappeared. It is a much smaller industry now, but at the end of the day, this is a sector that's still struggling to fill jobs. Why is that?
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The fantasy vs. reality of Trump's "smokestack nostalgia"
Please say more about that.
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The fantasy vs. reality of Trump's "smokestack nostalgia"
You know, a lot of what you're touching on right now, the conditions that are really hitting the manufacturing sector, at least in the United States, a lot of those things you touched on in a piece that you recently wrote in Vox called Manufacturing Jobs Are Never Coming Back. Why can't they?
It's Been a Minute
The fantasy vs. reality of Trump's "smokestack nostalgia"
Bringing things back to the tariffs. Ultimately, what might these tariffs mean for both the fantasy and the reality of factory work?
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The fantasy vs. reality of Trump's "smokestack nostalgia"
As you just heard, one of the biggest reasons behind the Trump administration's tariffs is to bring more factory jobs back into our country. And in case you don't know this about me, I'm from Metro Detroit. I grew up in the Rust Belt, and I know firsthand how deeply our country feels the loss of a lot of our manufacturing jobs. and how we still dream about ourselves as a manufacturing superpower.
It's Been a Minute
The fantasy vs. reality of Trump's "smokestack nostalgia"
Well, Dylan, Jeffrey, thank you both so much for joining me today. I really enjoyed this conversation.
It's Been a Minute
The fantasy vs. reality of Trump's "smokestack nostalgia"
That was Dylan Matthews, senior correspondent at Vox and Jeffrey Gonzalez, associate professor at Montclair State University. And I'm going to put on my influencer hat for a second and ask you to please subscribe to this show on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you're listening. Click follow so you know the latest in culture while it's still hot.
It's Been a Minute
The fantasy vs. reality of Trump's "smokestack nostalgia"
This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Liam McBain. Engineering support came from David Greenberg. This episode was edited by Nina Potok. Our supervising producer is Barton Girdwood. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right, that's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
The fantasy vs. reality of Trump's "smokestack nostalgia"
But what does this dream look like for people on both sides of the aisle? Why does factory work seem so central to our politics? And how does the fantasy of bringing it back stack up against the reality of what manufacturing looks like in our country today?
It's Been a Minute
The fantasy vs. reality of Trump's "smokestack nostalgia"
That's Dylan Matthews, senior correspondent at Vox. I'm joined by him and Jeffrey Gonzalez, associate professor at Montclair State University in New Jersey.
It's Been a Minute
The fantasy vs. reality of Trump's "smokestack nostalgia"
So to jump right in, according to one poll from the Cato Institute and YouGov, 80% of Americans want more people working in factories here, but only 25% said they would be better off. if they themselves did in fact work in a factory. Why might Americans like the idea of other people working in factories more than the prospect of working in factories themselves?
It's Been a Minute
The fantasy vs. reality of Trump's "smokestack nostalgia"
A quick note before we start today's show. You may have heard that President Trump has issued an executive order seeking to block all federal funding to NPR. This is the latest in a series of threats to media organizations across the country. Whatever changes this action brings, NPR's commitment to reporting the news without fear or favor will never change.
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The fantasy vs. reality of Trump's "smokestack nostalgia"
Or they already like their jobs or just have different passions. Yeah. But I mean, the lasting legacy of like the idea that a factory job is a good job, it's kind of outlived the actual truth of that situation. Salaries for manufacturing jobs are now in the bottom half of all jobs.
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The fantasy vs. reality of Trump's "smokestack nostalgia"
And one paper by researchers at the Federal Reserve shows that the decline in unionization rates is by and large responsible for the drop in wages for factory work compared to other jobs.
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The fantasy vs. reality of Trump's "smokestack nostalgia"
Right. For those who don't know, right-to-work states are states with laws prohibiting mandatory union membership as a condition of employment. And this makes it harder for unions to organize. Also, NAFTA was the trade agreement we made with Canada and Mexico in the 90s to get rid of tariffs.
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The fantasy vs. reality of Trump's "smokestack nostalgia"
I think regardless of whether people might want to work in a factory themselves or not, there is a kind of fantasy about factory work happening in our culture, in our politics right now. It's also happening on both sides of the aisle.
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The fantasy vs. reality of Trump's "smokestack nostalgia"
Like there's a romanticization of labor and laborers on the left in kind of like a Marxist way, but also another flavor of that on the right that's more about like self-sufficiency and tradition and strength. So what is being romanticized here? What do people think more American factories can do for us?
It's Been a Minute
The fantasy vs. reality of Trump's "smokestack nostalgia"
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It's Been a Minute
The fantasy vs. reality of Trump's "smokestack nostalgia"
Yeah, I mean, that's kind of wild. It's like this masculinity bypass, basically. You don't have to get your hands dirty, but you can be seen as the kind of guy who appreciates getting his hands dirty. And like that by proxy is enough.
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The fantasy vs. reality of Trump's "smokestack nostalgia"
Though it does need to be said that women have long been factory workers along with immigrants and people of color and queer people. Butch lesbians were especially associated with blue collar jobs in the mid-century, which included factory work.
It's Been a Minute
The fantasy vs. reality of Trump's "smokestack nostalgia"
Yeah, that's the United Auto Workers Union, for those who don't know.
It's Been a Minute
The fantasy vs. reality of Trump's "smokestack nostalgia"
Okay, I see the fantasy here, but I'm also curious, how did factory work become sort of woven into American identity in the first place? And why is it still there, even if we don't work in factories as much as we used to?
It's Been a Minute
The fantasy vs. reality of Trump's "smokestack nostalgia"
And if you already support us via NPR Plus or another means, thank you. Your support means so much to us, now more than ever. You help make NPR shows freely available to everyone. We are proud to do this work for you and with you. Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident.
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The fantasy vs. reality of Trump's "smokestack nostalgia"
Totally. And now there's that lingering question of who are we without this pillar of our American identity? I'm also thinking about the national security argument for bringing more factories back. Vice President J.D. Vance has talked about this.
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The fantasy vs. reality of Trump's "smokestack nostalgia"
But I also question whether we'd even need to, as we already have over 3,000 nuclear warheads currently stockpiled. Say what you will about the American military, but I'm not sure any of the three of us would argue that it's been under-resourced, right? But there's still an idea here that not having as many factories makes us weaker from a national security standpoint.
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The fantasy vs. reality of Trump's "smokestack nostalgia"
Yeah. Coming up, what does manufacturing actually look like in the U.S.? And could the tariffs help bring more factory jobs back?
It's Been a Minute
The fantasy vs. reality of Trump's "smokestack nostalgia"
I want to talk more about the reality of factory work in the U.S. These jobs, by the way, they already exist. As of February, there are 400,000 open positions in manufacturing. I've seen reports that some factory owners are desperate for more workers. I think that might be surprising. There's an image, I think, that people have of manufacturing as up and leaving completely.
It's Been a Minute
The R-word is back. But why?
As someone who was a young person in the early 2000s, I remember campaigns telling people how harmful the word is.
It's Been a Minute
The R-word is back. But why?
And why we should be more aware of the way it can hurt our most vulnerable populations. But it's more than that.
It's Been a Minute
The R-word is back. But why?
Ableism isn't just found in our language. It's found in our policies and systems as well. And when disability or the implication of a disability is attached to someone or a group of people, the consequences can be dire.
It's Been a Minute
The R-word is back. But why?
I mean, you know, there's a case to be made that the way we use and wield language, that can be the butterfly wings that turns into the tsunami of like, you know, free Britney.
It's Been a Minute
The R-word is back. But why?
Today, Imani joins me to get into how she thinks ableism has shaped our political and legal landscape and why the R word is just the tip of the iceberg.
It's Been a Minute
The R-word is back. But why?
So to describe people who were unable or who were deemed unable to take care of themselves, idiot was one of the words used.
It's Been a Minute
The R-word is back. But why?
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident.
It's Been a Minute
The R-word is back. But why?
For listeners, Buck v. Bell was a 1927 Supreme Court case that upheld, quote, a state's right to forcibly sterilize a person considered unfit to procreate, which included those who they deemed, quote unquote, mentally deficient.
It's Been a Minute
The R-word is back. But why?
When we were preparing for this conversation, as we've been looking into the increased usage of the R word, I came across this concept called the euphemism treadmill. It was introduced by this researcher and scholar named Steven Pinker in a 1994 New York Times op-ed. And I will say, he seemed to have a somewhat cynical view of the utility of the euphemism treadmill.
It's Been a Minute
The R-word is back. But why?
Basically, the R word used to be a part of I believe like medical terminology, a diagnosis. Yes, it was. And then it gets that negative connotation, almost like because of our society's attitudes about disability, then the word becomes an insult. It becomes tarnished.
It's Been a Minute
The R-word is back. But why?
But what he talks about with the euphemism treadmill is that eventually it becomes an insult and then it becomes unspeakable and then it's banished from polite conversation. What feels notable with the R word is that It seems to be running backward on the euphemism treadmill. I can't think of many other words coming back.
It's Been a Minute
The R-word is back. But why?
More on how disability, racism, and whiteness are intertwined. I wonder, do you see it as a part of a wave of mainstreaming of offensive language or gestures more broadly? Like I'm thinking about Kanye West and the way that people talk about Kanye West's mental illicit diagnosis. I don't know all the details of his medical history, but...
It's Been a Minute
The R-word is back. But why?
When he says things that are anti-Semitic or deeply misogynistic or racist and anti-Black, people will be like, oh, this is a part of his diagnoses. On one hand, as you've described, I can think of a bunch of examples of disability being used as a reason why someone should not be believed or shouldn't be able to make decisions on their own. But
It's Been a Minute
The R-word is back. But why?
Much like FX's English teacher, I've noticed an uptick in a term I thought was long gone, at least in polite conversation. The R-word.
It's Been a Minute
The R-word is back. But why?
It seems like there are people who are willing to use disability as a means of making an excuse for behavior that many people see as racist or antisemitic.
It's Been a Minute
The R-word is back. But why?
I have seen that sentiment online a lot. What that kind of presupposes then is that racism is something that can't be helped, can't be fixed. It's like something of nature as opposed to of society.
It's Been a Minute
The R-word is back. But why?
That also makes me think back to something that I had seen in a New York magazine piece written by Brock Collier about the new sort of young conservative or Republican people who are excited about Trump's second presidency.
It's Been a Minute
The R-word is back. But why?
Something that came up in that piece that I also have seen elsewhere online is people wanting to feel like they can say the R word specifically and have that be okay or do it without guilt. Many people feel or see a power in that. Some people listening to this might think, at the end of the day, These are just words. So what's the big deal? What would you say to them?
It's Been a Minute
The R-word is back. But why?
Disability advocate and content creator Imani Barbarin, a.k.a. Crutches and Spice on TikTok. Thank you so much for having me. Noticed this a few years ago.
It's Been a Minute
The R-word is back. But why?
Well, Imani, I really appreciate you taking the time to have this conversation with me today. I learned so much. Thank you so much.
It's Been a Minute
The R-word is back. But why?
That was disability advocate Imani Barbarin. You can find her on TikTok at Crutches and Spice. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Alexis Williams. This episode was edited by Nina Patak. Our supervising producer is Barton Girdwood. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right.
It's Been a Minute
The R-word is back. But why?
That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
On immigration, "what if fear is the message?"
There's going to be people listening to this conversation who think that this has nothing to do with them, that they as American born citizens with American born parents don't have to think or worry about birthright citizenship or increased ICE arrests. What would you say to them?
It's Been a Minute
On immigration, "what if fear is the message?"
Hmm. Jasmine, Ximena, I really appreciate you coming on the show and talking with us about this. This was great. Thank you. Thank you. That was NPR immigration correspondent Jasmine Garst and Homeland Security Department and immigration policy reporter Ximena Bustillo. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Alexis Williams. Barton Girdwood. This episode was edited by Jasmine Romero.
It's Been a Minute
On immigration, "what if fear is the message?"
Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
On immigration, "what if fear is the message?"
an executive order aimed at changing who gets birthright citizenship. Now, birthright citizenship is protected by the Constitution and guarantees U.S. citizenship to any child born on U.S. soil, with the exception of very specific groups like, say, the children of foreign diplomats.
It's Been a Minute
On immigration, "what if fear is the message?"
It dates back to the period after the Civil War, when the 14th Amendment was revised to include all persons born or naturalized in the United States. It granted citizenship to newly emancipated Black Americans. And since then, it's changed the face of our nation.
It's Been a Minute
On immigration, "what if fear is the message?"
There have been several attempts to challenge the rule. In fact, this isn't even the first time President Trump has tried to roll it back.
It's Been a Minute
On immigration, "what if fear is the message?"
And even though a federal judge has already blocked President Trump's order, getting the order to stand might not have been the point at all.
It's Been a Minute
On immigration, "what if fear is the message?"
My guests, NPR's immigration correspondent, Jasmine Garst. Hi. And NPR's Homeland Security Department and immigration policy reporter, Ximena Bustillo.
It's Been a Minute
On immigration, "what if fear is the message?"
Are here to break down what the battle for birthright says about our nation and who is already cashing in.
It's Been a Minute
On immigration, "what if fear is the message?"
The racial dynamics of this are hard to ignore. When I think about the popularity of like the white replacement theory, you know, this idea that there is a plot to, quote, replace white Americans with people of color. I mean, this used to be a fringe alt-right theory, but we've seen members of the GOP embrace elements of the, you know, white replacement theory.
It's Been a Minute
On immigration, "what if fear is the message?"
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident.
It's Been a Minute
On immigration, "what if fear is the message?"
I don't know, when I look at like the context in which all of these ICE arrests and this birthright citizenship discourse is happening, it's very difficult not to see some kind of connection there.
It's Been a Minute
On immigration, "what if fear is the message?"
If it were to happen, what's the administration plan to replace birthright citizenship with?
It's Been a Minute
On immigration, "what if fear is the message?"
There are so many other ways in which, as you say, that fear can keep someone's head bowed. It can also keep someone from being able to provide safely and consistently for their families. But it also can keep people from perhaps pushing for other causes that are important to them that they see as a matter of equitable treatment, that they see as a matter of civil or human rights as well.
It's Been a Minute
On immigration, "what if fear is the message?"
I'm just absorbing what you just said.
It's Been a Minute
On immigration, "what if fear is the message?"
The Obama years. How the Democrats disenchanted a generation of voters and prepared them for Trump 2.0.
It's Been a Minute
On immigration, "what if fear is the message?"
Regardless of whether birthright citizenship is abolished or not, a lot stands to accelerate in terms of America's immigration enforcement in the coming months. I wonder what industries are profiting from America's immigration crackdown and which ones might stand to profit in the future. Yeah.
It's Been a Minute
On immigration, "what if fear is the message?"
I'm just absorbing what you just said.
It's Been a Minute
On immigration, "what if fear is the message?"
Yes, you heard that right. Dr. Phil was in Chicago interviewing someone who was actively being arrested by ICE. This was a part of a ride-along operation with Trump's border czar, Tom Homan, amidst the president's much-promised crackdown on immigration.
It's Been a Minute
On immigration, "what if fear is the message?"
Right. Biden's secretary of Homeland Security.
It's Been a Minute
On immigration, "what if fear is the message?"
We've discussed this big moment in messaging from Trump and his administration and the Republican Party around cracking down on immigration. But this is something that Democrats also have done as well. I mean, some people even have even referred to Obama as the deporter in chief.
It's Been a Minute
On immigration, "what if fear is the message?"
I feel like I'm seeing a lot of comparison between how Trump is handling things and how Biden has handled things with the assumption that Trump has deported more people or detained more people than Obama or Biden has handled.
It's Been a Minute
On immigration, "what if fear is the message?"
Now, there's been so much action in the president's first few days in office, it's been hard to keep up with the flurry of executive orders he's signed. But there was one in particular that set off alarm bells that could fundamentally change the definition of who's American.
It's Been a Minute
Fast fashion vs. Trump: why women may pay more in the tariff wars
My gosh. I mean, I had anticipated that the demand for secondhand items could go up, but I hadn't even thought that there could be a possibility that the demand for them may go down. I wonder who are secondhand shoppers or like, is it a niche market or... Is this group going? I know that there's a variety of motivations for why people shop secondhand. Some people, it's cost.
It's Been a Minute
Fast fashion vs. Trump: why women may pay more in the tariff wars
According to McKinsey & Company, from 2000 to 2014, clothing production doubled, and the number of garments purchased per capita increased by about 60%. That's in part due to the rise of fast fashion. And now, some consumers are seeing the fallout of that.
It's Been a Minute
Fast fashion vs. Trump: why women may pay more in the tariff wars
Some people, it's preference. Some people, it's sustainability or looking for something specific. Some people are like vintage collectors. But I wonder, like, I don't know, who makes up this group? Yeah.
It's Been a Minute
Fast fashion vs. Trump: why women may pay more in the tariff wars
They weren't just there to like to hang out. They weren't just there to see what was around.
It's Been a Minute
Fast fashion vs. Trump: why women may pay more in the tariff wars
Wow, wow. I wonder, you know, when people can't afford either vintage or secondhand higher quality goods or the kinds of goods that you want to purchase, maybe that you can hold on to them for a little while because they are, you know, made pretty well. Yeah. Will they eventually turn back to the Sheehan hauls, you know, that we've seen before? Like, is this a cycle that we've seen before? Yeah.
It's Been a Minute
Fast fashion vs. Trump: why women may pay more in the tariff wars
Gosh, Waylon, thank you so much for coming on. It was so great to talk to you. I learned so much.
It's Been a Minute
Fast fashion vs. Trump: why women may pay more in the tariff wars
That was Waylon Wong from NPR's The Indicator. And thanks again to Veronique Hyland. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Alexis Williams. This episode was edited by Nina Patak. Our supervising producer is Barton Girdwood. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sangweni. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR.
It's Been a Minute
Fast fashion vs. Trump: why women may pay more in the tariff wars
I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
Fast fashion vs. Trump: why women may pay more in the tariff wars
At the time of our chat, we wondered if the shift would stick in the post-New Year's resolution shuffle. It's no secret that Americans are deeply concerned about the economy, and there are numerous concerns about what fast fashion is doing to the environment. But that hasn't stopped the rise of places like Shein or Taimou.
It's Been a Minute
Fast fashion vs. Trump: why women may pay more in the tariff wars
However, there's one other piece of the puzzle that may influence the way we buy.
It's Been a Minute
Fast fashion vs. Trump: why women may pay more in the tariff wars
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident.
It's Been a Minute
Fast fashion vs. Trump: why women may pay more in the tariff wars
I chatted with Veronique in January, right before President Trump took office. And since then, we've seen that Trump has decided to go forward with imposing tariffs on goods from Canada, Mexico, and China. So now you might be wondering, what does that have to do with underconsumption? Actually, what does that have to do with fashion at all? Well, everything.
It's Been a Minute
Fast fashion vs. Trump: why women may pay more in the tariff wars
That's NPR's very own Waylon Wong from The Indicator. I want to make sure everyone's clear. A tariff is a tax that American businesses or consumers pay on imported goods from overseas. So as tariffs on goods from China or Mexico go up, our prices go up. But then you have to ask, if our prices are going to go up, why is the Trump administration doing this in the first place?
It's Been a Minute
Fast fashion vs. Trump: why women may pay more in the tariff wars
So that made me wonder, how is fashion, especially fast fashion, going to hold up during this turbulent time?
It's Been a Minute
Fast fashion vs. Trump: why women may pay more in the tariff wars
Or will the overwhelming effect of tariffs cause shoppers to cut their losses and follow the under-consumption model of thrifting, mending, and secondhand fines?
It's Been a Minute
Fast fashion vs. Trump: why women may pay more in the tariff wars
Today on the show, Waylon helps break down how tariffs will affect Americans and what these taxes can reveal about who's actually footing the bills in this country.
It's Been a Minute
Fast fashion vs. Trump: why women may pay more in the tariff wars
Two or three months ago, I went into my closet to do my routine purge. Attempted it and failed many times. But this last time, it actually worked.
It's Been a Minute
Fast fashion vs. Trump: why women may pay more in the tariff wars
So perhaps moving your production center out of China, out of Mexico, out of Canada.
It's Been a Minute
Fast fashion vs. Trump: why women may pay more in the tariff wars
Jeez. I mean, I imagine it's less complicated for a much larger company to make a big change like that than perhaps a smaller one.
It's Been a Minute
Fast fashion vs. Trump: why women may pay more in the tariff wars
Geez, geez. Okay. You know, and something else that matters is also where the goods are from. For this episode, we also spoke with fashion law professor and author Susan Scafidi, who gave us an example, thinking about, let's say, for example, designer shoes from Italy.
It's Been a Minute
Fast fashion vs. Trump: why women may pay more in the tariff wars
they would be subject to a lesser tariff than, say, an everyday household item that a middle or working class parent might pick up on Amazon or at Walmart that's made in China. Is this another way of widening the gap between the haves and the have-nots if you're thinking about who's tending to buy luxury goods that are from
It's Been a Minute
Fast fashion vs. Trump: why women may pay more in the tariff wars
You know, these countries that are not currently being tariffed versus who may not have the wiggle room to be able to seek out products that aren't from these now heavily tariffed countries.
It's Been a Minute
Fast fashion vs. Trump: why women may pay more in the tariff wars
Okay, okay. So back to President Trump. When he was reelected, there was already some preparation from the fashion industry in anticipation of the tariffs that he may propose. Now that we're here, right, the tariffs are in effect. How have fashion retailers, particularly in fast fashion, reacted to this?
It's Been a Minute
Fast fashion vs. Trump: why women may pay more in the tariff wars
That is Veronique Hyland. Thank you for having me. Fashion features director at Elle and author of Dress Code, unlocking fashion from the new look to millennial pink. She's followed online fashion trends from Mob Wives to Vera Bradley's TikTok revival. And after watching Emma Chamberlain's closet clean out, she noticed the latest shift in online fashion. Under consumption.
It's Been a Minute
Fast fashion vs. Trump: why women may pay more in the tariff wars
How tariffs could affect the secondhand market.
It's Been a Minute
Fast fashion vs. Trump: why women may pay more in the tariff wars
So I wonder, like, is there a world in which these tariffs affect the way that fast fashion has been able to develop in the past few years?
It's Been a Minute
Fast fashion vs. Trump: why women may pay more in the tariff wars
But the thing about these tariffs, though, is that they're not applied equally to all goods. In researching for this episode, our producer Alexis found that this depends on lots of things. Like, for instance, gender. In the US, as far as we know, the US is the only country that has gender-based tariffs on clothing, meaning women's wear has higher tariffs than men's wear.
It's Been a Minute
Fast fashion vs. Trump: why women may pay more in the tariff wars
Gosh, gosh. Okay, so that makes me wonder, though, how the secondhand and vintage reseller market will be affected by these tariffs. The resale market has been hot for years.
It's Been a Minute
Fast fashion vs. Trump: why women may pay more in the tariff wars
And if there's this idea that consumers are moving toward more sustainable practices, or even just this idea that consumers need to perhaps save money for other reasons, I wonder how the secondhand market will adjust to all of this.
It's Been a Minute
All hail the queen of rom-coms
Maybe you've heard, maybe you haven't, but I'm here to tell you I have a New Year's present for all of you. Starting this week, I'm bringing It's Been a Minute to you three times a week. Every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, you'll be getting the freshest, deepest takes on what's going on in culture. That's my present to you. I hope your present to me is tuning in. Starting right now.
It's Been a Minute
All hail the queen of rom-coms
This episode was edited by Jasmine Romero. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
All hail the queen of rom-coms
These seminal rom-coms are all the brain children of journalist, director, and screenwriter Nora Ephron. Whose work behind the scenes has paved the way for some of our most beloved romantic comedies. But even though Nora's impact is felt far beyond the screen, her legacy is rarely mentioned alongside her contemporaries. That's why today I'm sitting down with writer and author Ilana Kaplan.
It's Been a Minute
All hail the queen of rom-coms
She wrote Nora Ephron at the Movies, a look at Nora's life, legacy, and why her work still rings true when the clock strikes 12. Ilana, welcome to It's Been a Minute. Thanks for having me. Our pleasure. Our pleasure. Especially to talk about the topic we're going to talk about today. This is exactly the kind of warm, cozy chat that I want to have at this time of year. So I want to take it back.
It's Been a Minute
All hail the queen of rom-coms
to When Harry Met Sally. You say that film revived the modern rom-com. Tell us how.
It's Been a Minute
All hail the queen of rom-coms
I didn't even think about that, like not even dressed casually.
It's Been a Minute
All hail the queen of rom-coms
Nora wrote and directed women through the female gaze. And so they were these flawed human beings. They were these flawed messes. I mean, I think about that original scene in When Harry Met Sally. Yeah. And Harry and Sally eat at this diner because they're on this road trip. And Sally's ordering this slice of pie.
It's Been a Minute
All hail the queen of rom-coms
Not even the pie? because these female characters get loved despite all of their flaws, like we all hope to be, I think that that also is something that viewers get really attached to.
It's Been a Minute
All hail the queen of rom-coms
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. Happy New Year, my friends. There are so many ways to celebrate the new year. Watching the ball drop with friends, popping champagne. But there's one tradition that stands above them all.
It's Been a Minute
All hail the queen of rom-coms
I also think about, as you described earlier in our conversation and in your book, the How her characters were, if not tough, they were cosmopolitan and somewhat streetwise in terms of dating. They didn't turn away from frank talk about sex. Different scenes throughout her other rom-coms as well, where women are talking frankly, not just with men, but with each other about sex.
It's Been a Minute
All hail the queen of rom-coms
The experiences that they've had with men, the experiences they've had with dating, becoming a little jaded over time. These women were ambitious and smart, and they were the opposite kind of of that lovestruck, virginal woman character from rom-coms of the past.
It's Been a Minute
All hail the queen of rom-coms
Talk to me about the impact of Nora's turning away from that kind of dichotomy of the very experienced man who is falling in love with this virginal lamb of a woman.
It's Been a Minute
All hail the queen of rom-coms
Well, how else do you think you'd do it? I've got the perfect guy. I don't happen to find him attractive, but you might. She doesn't have a problem with chins.
It's Been a Minute
All hail the queen of rom-coms
You know, you also said that with her romantic comedies, Nora didn't just reinvigorate the genre. She also reinvigorated the film market as well. And in your book, you say that she alone is at least partially responsible for the rom-com boom of the 1990s and 2000s. And that's like a golden era that a lot of people talk about wanting to go back to.
It's Been a Minute
All hail the queen of rom-coms
Talk to me about why you say that Nora is responsible for kind of stoking that market.
It's Been a Minute
All hail the queen of rom-coms
Oh, Richard Curtis, like, for Weddings and a Funeral?
It's Been a Minute
All hail the queen of rom-coms
He wanted to follow in her—I mean, I'm not surprised by that, but I didn't realize that time-wise that's how that worked out.
It's Been a Minute
All hail the queen of rom-coms
Coming up, I continue my conversation with Alana about Nora Ephron's legacy and how her influence shows up in the modern romantic comedies we know and love today.
It's Been a Minute
All hail the queen of rom-coms
I wonder, where do you see Nora Ephron's influence in either films or TV shows of today?
It's Been a Minute
All hail the queen of rom-coms
Oh, who wrote the book version of To All the Boys I've Loved Before, Love Her.
It's Been a Minute
All hail the queen of rom-coms
You kind of like the writing letters back and forth, or I guess in Lara Jean's case. The letters got sent. I don't think people necessarily wrote back. Writing letters back and forth, like in You've Got Mail or as you mentioned, like in Sleepist in Seattle, that kind of like almost message in a bottle way of communicating where you're kind of waiting a fortnight to hear from somebody.
It's Been a Minute
All hail the queen of rom-coms
There's something very romantic and kind of timeless about that. I feel like every single fall I open up my social media accounts online. whether it's on Instagram, whether it's on TikTok, whether it's on Twitter. And I see screenshots from When Harry Met Sally or from You've Got Mail as, like, fall inspo.
It's Been a Minute
All hail the queen of rom-coms
Why do you think it is that these movies are still so endlessly memeable, that they are so sticky on social media?
It's Been a Minute
All hail the queen of rom-coms
Lord, Nancy, don't get me started on Nancy Meyers. I'll be here all day. I'll be here all day. You know, when we're talking about rom-com queens, she's up there in the conversation with Nora Ephron, even though she also is somebody who probably was inspired by Nora Ephron. But Nancy Meyers is somebody who, like, consistently brings people into the theater. Private Benjamin, Baby Boom...
It's Been a Minute
All hail the queen of rom-coms
Something's Gotta Give, and The Parent Trap. Oh my gosh, how did I forget the ones? The best movie of all time. But Nora, along with Nancy, is one of the rare female filmmakers whose legacy actually gets... She's had a huge impact on our culture and on our lexicon.
It's Been a Minute
All hail the queen of rom-coms
Why do you think Nora is only one of the few female directors who's actually been able to cut through and have a legacy that has been maintained over time?
It's Been a Minute
All hail the queen of rom-coms
For years, rom-com fans have set their New Year's Eve countdown to the runtime of When Harry Met Sally. So they ring in the year just at the point Billy Crystal's Harry declares his love for Meg Ryan's Sally. But if you're a true rom-com fan, like me, you know that When Harry Met Sally is just the starter. You gotta watch the whole trilogy. Sleepless in Seattle.
It's Been a Minute
All hail the queen of rom-coms
Oh, give me an example of what you mean when you say the same kinds of praise.
It's Been a Minute
All hail the queen of rom-coms
You can see Nora Ephron's influence everywhere. These days, romance is taken a lot more seriously than it was in the past as a genre of entertainment. And there's always been this historical discounting of romance as a genre because people think it's frivolous or silly or unserious, even though a rom-com, Anyone But You, performed huge globally.
It's Been a Minute
All hail the queen of rom-coms
How do you think we'd look at Nora Ephron differently if she had redefined some other genre instead?
It's Been a Minute
All hail the queen of rom-coms
I love that movie so much. Well, Alana, thank you so much for coming on and talk with me about a woman we both love so much. Thank you so much for having me. That was Alana Kaplan, writer and author of Nora Ephron at the Movies. The book is available now. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Barton Girdwood Alexis Williams Liam McBain Corey Antonio-Rose
It's Been a Minute
Who deserves to be a parent?
There's a popular term some adoptees use for becoming more critical of adoption or for facing the grief within their adoption story. It's called coming out of the fog. And birth parents are weighing in too.
It's Been a Minute
Who deserves to be a parent?
So we've talked about how adoption is not always the desired outcome for relinquishing parents, but some adoptees have also been expressing grief online about their adoptions. We talked to a few of them. Here are adoptees Tori Bae, Angela Tucker, and Nicole Egbert.
It's Been a Minute
Who deserves to be a parent?
And there's some pretty consistent evidence that adopted people are more likely to experience mental health issues and behavioral problems than the general population. There's a quote that you mentioned in the book. Can young people receive the care they need without being made a legal stranger to their families? Talk to me more about that question.
It's Been a Minute
Who deserves to be a parent?
So there's been a lot of conversation about adoption, I think mainly because many adoptees are talking about their experiences online. I've seen suggestions made by some adoptees for how to make adoption different or better. Open adoptions are tricky, as we discussed, but some are saying making guardianship more common could be a solution.
It's Been a Minute
Who deserves to be a parent?
So someone else can care for a child without it ending the birth parent's legal relationship. But also, I want to bring in the third side of this triangle for a second. Adoptive parents.
It's Been a Minute
Who deserves to be a parent?
Today on It's Been a Minute, we're taking a closer look at how adoption functions in our culture. We're zooming in on one side of the adoption triangle, the birth parents. We're diving deep into how the stories that are told about birth parents stack up against their realities and ultimately asking, how does our culture decide who deserves to be a parent?
It's Been a Minute
Who deserves to be a parent?
A recent survey found out that of those who have ever considered or are currently considering adopting, almost a quarter said it was because they experienced fertility issues or other barriers to conceiving naturally. And that can be tough. All of the failed IVF treatments and the pregnancy losses and Negative one-step tests that often come with that, that can all be really, really painful.
It's Been a Minute
Who deserves to be a parent?
So many people dream of raising a child for their entire lives. And when that dream can't be realized, it's heartbreaking. In many cultures, it can also be stigmatizing too. So I get why adoption looks like a better option. But if we as a culture begin to place more emphasis on the right to parent the child you have, where does that leave people who can't have one naturally?
It's Been a Minute
Who deserves to be a parent?
Gretchen, thank you so much. I really appreciate this.
It's Been a Minute
Who deserves to be a parent?
That was Gretchen Sisson, the author of Relinquished, The Politics of Adoption and the Privilege of American Motherhood. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Liam McBain. This episode was edited by Jessica Plachek. Jasmine Romero. Engineering support came from Robert Rodriguez. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right.
It's Been a Minute
Who deserves to be a parent?
That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
Who deserves to be a parent?
I'm joined by Gretchen Sisson, the author of Relinquished, The Politics of Adoption and the Privilege of American Motherhood. She'll be taking us through her research with birth parents. Gretchen, welcome to It's Been a Minute.
It's Been a Minute
Who deserves to be a parent?
I first want to talk to you about where we see adoption in pop culture, because you mentioned a few major pop culture moments about adoption in your book. What are they and what narrative of adoption are they getting across?
It's Been a Minute
Who deserves to be a parent?
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. November is National Adoption Awareness Month. And no, it's not one of those made-up holidays like National Nacho Day. It's a real thing. President Bill Clinton personally declared it a national priority in 1995.
It's Been a Minute
Who deserves to be a parent?
You say that in reality, a lot of birth parents want to know the person they brought into the world. One study from 10 years ago found that 95% of adoptions had some level of openness, meaning there's some identifying information that birth parents and adoptive parents receive about one another.
It's Been a Minute
Who deserves to be a parent?
And almost half of all adoptions at the same time had plans for ongoing contact between the birth family and the adopted family. That's something I think we see a bit more clearly in the MTV reality show, 16 and Pregnant. I think many of us remember, especially millennials, watching Caitlyn and Tyler on that show.
It's Been a Minute
Who deserves to be a parent?
They had an open adoption that played out on 16 and Pregnant. And this couple is still together today with more kids they've raised themselves, which you can watch unfold on the spinoff show, Teen Mom. Could you talk to me about their story and what you think that communicates?
It's Been a Minute
Who deserves to be a parent?
As we celebrate National Adoption Month, Americans can take pride in the progress we're making. But we know there is much more work to be done.
It's Been a Minute
Who deserves to be a parent?
And as a culture, we love to celebrate adoption stories. They paint a beautiful picture of a child in need going to a loving family. Sometimes those stories transcend race and identity. I'm looking at you, Angelina Jolie. But lately, the narrative around adoption has been shifting from the perfect Hollywood happy ending to something a little more complicated.
It's Been a Minute
Who deserves to be a parent?
Something that I didn't understand really until we started to actually research is how in a lot of states, open adoptions are not legally enforceable.
It's Been a Minute
Who deserves to be a parent?
Coming up, why there is so much public investment in adoption and how parental worthiness gets decided. Stick around. So we've talked about some of the aftermath for birth parents who choose to enter into an adoption, but I want to back up a bit and talk about how the decision to relinquish gets made.
It's Been a Minute
Who deserves to be a parent?
We saw in the Dobbs decision in 2022, the decision that overturned Roe versus Wade, that judges and lawmakers are thinking about abortion and adoption as substitutes, like during the opening arguments. Justice Amy Coney Barrett suggested having baby boxes that birth parents could leave babies in with no consequences. These are called safe havens.
It's Been a Minute
Who deserves to be a parent?
She was suggesting that that should take care of the issue of not getting an abortion.
It's Been a Minute
Who deserves to be a parent?
And Justice Samuel Alito said in his opinion on the Dobbs decision that a woman who puts her newborn up for adoption today has little reason to fear that the baby will not find a suitable home. But do people who are pregnant see it that way? Like, why do they choose adoption?
It's Been a Minute
Who deserves to be a parent?
There's a whole community of adoptees online talking about their experiences. On TikTok, there are over 50 million videos tagged adoptee.
It's Been a Minute
Who deserves to be a parent?
Right. And it's still a bit early to say what impact Dobbs has had on adoption rates, but some adoption agencies in states where abortion is more restricted have said they're getting more interest.
It's Been a Minute
Who deserves to be a parent?
Well, it's interesting, though, even outside of how adoption played a part in the Dobbs decision, politicians on both sides of the aisle push for adoption. Last year, Democratic Senator Amy Klobuchar and Republican Senator Kevin Cramer brought a bipartisan bill to raise adoption awareness and support adopted families to the Senate.
It's Been a Minute
Who deserves to be a parent?
Also, millions of dollars of government funding in several states go towards promoting adoption either directly or as a part of their alternatives to abortion programs. What's with all this investment in adoption?
It's Been a Minute
Who deserves to be a parent?
Right. That's basically a government refund for some of the money people might have spent on an adoption, which averages between $20,000 to $40,000 per adoption.
It's Been a Minute
Who deserves to be a parent?
You know, something I think that goes unsaid a little that you're starting to say here is that the idea of who deserves to be a parent and who has a right to be a parent is oftentimes paired with financial stability. What does it mean to be a quote unquote worthy parent in our culture?
It's Been a Minute
Who deserves to be a parent?
One of the things that stuck out to me in your book is that relinquishing mothers and their children have become... less white over time, but 77% of all adoptive parents are white. I read that while white babies are adopted at the highest percentage, almost 30% of adoptions are now transracial. How did that happen?
It's Been a Minute
Who deserves to be a parent?
Yes. I was reading about this. In Texas, there is a promotional campaign basically arguing that or trying to frame adoption as a way that women can be empowered to be in control of their future. I mean, this is something that's happening after abortion has been banned in nearly all circumstances in the state of Texas.
It's Been a Minute
Who deserves to be a parent?
And these ads and this marketing is being targeted to women who have the potential to be convinced to become relinquishing mothers.
It's Been a Minute
2024's ACTUAL Sexiest Men Alive? We have thoughts.
Today, I'm revisiting my conversation with Lindsay and Bobby about who Hollywood thinks is sexy. We're breaking down some of this year's objects of male desire and the forces behind why you think they're quote unquote sexy. Because who you think is sexy isn't always determined by you. Hi.
It's Been a Minute
2024's ACTUAL Sexiest Men Alive? We have thoughts.
Yes. Oh, the best reason. I'm not going to necessarily name names from the past few years, but I think we can all agree that some of the recent Sexiest Man Alive picks are people who don't necessarily feel culturally relevant for their sexiness that year. But also like over the past like 40 years, I mean, there's only ever been four black men named Sexiest Man Alive.
It's Been a Minute
2024's ACTUAL Sexiest Men Alive? We have thoughts.
And one biracial black and Pacific Islander man who is The Rock. All the rest of them were white. Even in this year's issue of the 12 men who actually gave interviews and had little featurettes, eight are white, including John Krasinski on the cover. Three are black and one is of mixed Latino, Middle Eastern, European heritage.
It's Been a Minute
2024's ACTUAL Sexiest Men Alive? We have thoughts.
I mean, it's not the most diverse bunch and not really a reflection of who our culture actually finds hot and who they're talking about.
It's Been a Minute
2024's ACTUAL Sexiest Men Alive? We have thoughts.
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. Okay, first things first. What is your reaction to John Krasinski is this year's sexiest man alive? Okay. People Magazine has done it again. Last month, they released their annual Sexiest Man Alive issue.
It's Been a Minute
2024's ACTUAL Sexiest Men Alive? We have thoughts.
Right. No, he's not been in anything sexy before. Exactly. I also, another thought that we've been having on our team about this is, where sexiness kind of is in entertainment right now. It's kind of missing. I mean, a study found that since the year 2000, the amount of sex and nudity in films has decreased by almost 40%. So sad.
It's Been a Minute
2024's ACTUAL Sexiest Men Alive? We have thoughts.
A number of picks for sexiest man in the last decade have been Marvel stars where, you know, no sex is famously the vibe. We're in an era culturally where there's perhaps less of an erotic charge to some of our hot actors because of the decrease in sex on screen. How do you think that affects who we see as sexy?
It's Been a Minute
2024's ACTUAL Sexiest Men Alive? We have thoughts.
Yeah. I keep thinking about the Hear Me Out memes on ex-Twitter.
It's Been a Minute
2024's ACTUAL Sexiest Men Alive? We have thoughts.
Yeah, where people post a person or character that they think is sexy in an unconventional way. I'll read one. Every guy's Hear Me Out is a 42-year-old actress that's still hot, while the typical woman's Hear Me Out is Predator from the movie Predator. I imagine that people is picking men for an audience of heterosexual women. Yes.
It's Been a Minute
2024's ACTUAL Sexiest Men Alive? We have thoughts.
We all agree. I see a lot more people finding Jeremy Allen White sexy and opining about his sexiness than I do see about someone like Ryan Reynolds who checks all the traditional boxes. Yes.
It's Been a Minute
2024's ACTUAL Sexiest Men Alive? We have thoughts.
I understand that definitely they're looking for a certain type of square-jawed, crew-cutted, white American sex appeal. Or maybe not even sex appeal, but just attractiveness. But also sometimes when they choose those left-of-center picks... They're still not guys that women would necessarily find appealing. So sad.
It's Been a Minute
2024's ACTUAL Sexiest Men Alive? We have thoughts.
And John Krasinski has been crowned the sexiest man alive. Yes, the guy who is most famous for being your average good guy on NBC's The Office 15 years ago. That guy is 2024's hottest man. I'm completely unsurprised.
It's Been a Minute
2024's ACTUAL Sexiest Men Alive? We have thoughts.
Okay, let's talk about some of the guys that audiences, the internet, and our group chats have actually been thirsting over this year. Let's talk about these rat boys for a second, okay? For those who don't know, this summer the internet fell in love with dudes who the internet says maybe look a little rodent-esque in a cartoon mouse kind of way. Again, this is not my definition.
It's Been a Minute
2024's ACTUAL Sexiest Men Alive? We have thoughts.
This is what the streets were saying, okay? The two Challengers stars Mike Feist and Josh O'Connor, along with Barry Keoghan and Timothee Chalamet. I would say that a lot of these guys have a different look than the sort of like usual male American stars, like all American jock charm. What do you think people are finding erotic about the rat boy archetype?
It's Been a Minute
2024's ACTUAL Sexiest Men Alive? We have thoughts.
You know, I feel like I can't talk about the hot guys of 2024 without talking about Dev Patel. Ugh, sexiest. Who directed, produced, so hot, who directed, produced, and starred in the action film Monkey Man.
It's Been a Minute
2024's ACTUAL Sexiest Men Alive? We have thoughts.
I went to a press screening, okay? I went to a press screening. There were serious critics, all this stuff, to go see Monkey Man. People were screaming when Dev Patel took off his shirt. Fully rocked. People who were there in a professional context were screaming when he took off his shirt.
It's Been a Minute
2024's ACTUAL Sexiest Men Alive? We have thoughts.
Exactly. I still kind of feel like we're in a place with Hollywood where – AAPI men are kind of lumped together or kind of pushed to the margins. Like I think about like Shogun was one of the biggest shows of last year. And this is like an Emmy winning show.
It's Been a Minute
2024's ACTUAL Sexiest Men Alive? We have thoughts.
Yeah. Yes, exactly. And also had a lot of hot guys on it. And they were not necessarily mainstreamed.
It's Been a Minute
2024's ACTUAL Sexiest Men Alive? We have thoughts.
Yeah. Again, I kind of feel like with Dev Patel, as somebody who's done everything from a popular teen drama to some of the most critically acclaimed films of the past 10 years, if a white actor had done that, the response by Hollywood platforming this guy would have been way different than it was for Dev Patel. Totally.
It's Been a Minute
2024's ACTUAL Sexiest Men Alive? We have thoughts.
The person checking me out at the register was like, this pic has been very controversial.
It's Been a Minute
2024's ACTUAL Sexiest Men Alive? We have thoughts.
Yeah, I think that's a very good point about people's sexiest man alive list. Essentially still being a legacy media project and legacy media is going to project and protect the things that legacy media holds dear. And a lot of that is shaped by white supremacist beauty standards. I mean, at the end of the day, people is going to people. People is going to people.
It's Been a Minute
2024's ACTUAL Sexiest Men Alive? We have thoughts.
All right, all right. Lindsay, Bobby, and I are turning to daddies next. You know, Idris Elba and Pedro Pascal. And looking at how the gay male gaze went mainstream. More sexy men after a quick break. Okay, so I want to talk about daddies now. You know, George Clooney, Chris Maloney, Idris Elba. I wonder, like, what's going on? What's going on with the hot daddies?
It's Been a Minute
2024's ACTUAL Sexiest Men Alive? We have thoughts.
What? I know what you're thinking. John Krasinski? Controversial? He's so inoffensive. Well, that is the offensive part. It's not that he's not considered hot. I just haven't really heard his name in any conversations about sexy men this year. Sexiness has actually never really been part of his public persona.
It's Been a Minute
2024's ACTUAL Sexiest Men Alive? We have thoughts.
Right. Like John Krasinski, as he talked about in his interview. Who's not daddy, but is a father. Yeah.
It's Been a Minute
2024's ACTUAL Sexiest Men Alive? We have thoughts.
Well, there are a good amount of, well, more than there have been in the past of gay men on the list this year. Yes. But I think part of the daddy gaze is kind of like the gay male gaze kind of like trickling into the mainstream. Yes. Like actors have aged forever, but the thirst for daddiness feels newer and also feels very rooted in that. But also I think that there is a little bit of othering.
It's Been a Minute
2024's ACTUAL Sexiest Men Alive? We have thoughts.
When someone's a daddy to you, you're acknowledging that they are distinctly different from you. Mm-hmm. Daddy is a term that has been kind of mainstream and adopted by people of all ages, but the roots of it are, you know, coming from someone who's younger and looking at or interacting with someone who's older.
It's Been a Minute
2024's ACTUAL Sexiest Men Alive? We have thoughts.
Perhaps, you know, this person who's a daddy to you has a little more money or more experience, but also perhaps more body hair or a more dominant presence or a more pronounced brand of masculinity. Yeah. I wonder... Is our cultural sexiness sonar changing? Are our tastes in sexiness shifting at all? Not if you look at the people.
It's Been a Minute
2024's ACTUAL Sexiest Men Alive? We have thoughts.
No, you do not sound like you're being mean to Glenn Powell. How dare you be rude to Glenn Powell?
It's Been a Minute
2024's ACTUAL Sexiest Men Alive? We have thoughts.
Oh my gosh. Well, Bobby, Lindsay, thank you both so much for coming on and talking with me about who's sexy. One of my favorite topics.
It's Been a Minute
2024's ACTUAL Sexiest Men Alive? We have thoughts.
We'll have to do it again. We'll have to do it again. We will certainly be doing this again. Those are my friends, Bobby Finger and Lindsay Weber. They co-host the celebrity culture podcast called Who Weekly. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Barton Girdwood, Alexis Williams, Liam McBain, Corey Antonio Rose. This episode was edited by Jessica Plachek.
It's Been a Minute
2024's ACTUAL Sexiest Men Alive? We have thoughts.
This pic left me and the co-hosts of Who Weekly, Bobby Finger and Lindsay Weber, wondering how there could be such a disconnect between who the internet is thirsting for and who Hollywood is pushing. Has Hollywood lost the plot on who's hot when they try to appeal to all of us at once? And are we maybe actually living in an era where niche sexiness is more relevant than mass appeal?
It's Been a Minute
2024's ACTUAL Sexiest Men Alive? We have thoughts.
Our executive producer is Jasmine Romero. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
Make America Male Again? Fifteen years of aggrieved men
Men also have had and still have immense power and privilege. How much are they actually in trouble? And how much is just them losing some of the power they once took as a given?
It's Been a Minute
Make America Male Again? Fifteen years of aggrieved men
Well, Hannah, this has been a fantastic conversation. This has been great. You've just been great. Thank you so much for talking with me about this. Thank you, Brittany. That was Hannah Rosen. She's the host of Radio Atlantic, and her book, an all-time classic, is called The End of Men.
It's Been a Minute
Make America Male Again? Fifteen years of aggrieved men
That may sound counterintuitive. After all, the gender pay gap still exists, and who knows when we might see a woman president. But if you look at the statistics, what Hannah saw 15 years ago is even clearer today. In their pursuit to close the gender gap, women have found ways to slowly outpace men.
It's Been a Minute
Make America Male Again? Fifteen years of aggrieved men
This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Barton Girdwood, Alexis Williams, Liam McBain, Corey Antonio Rose. This episode was edited by Jessica Plachek. Our executive producer is Jasmine Romero. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
Make America Male Again? Fifteen years of aggrieved men
Boys and men are less likely to graduate from school. Traditional job prospects and manufacturing are disappearing, and their wages have stagnated. Meanwhile, women have thrived.
It's Been a Minute
Make America Male Again? Fifteen years of aggrieved men
For decades, our societal message has been about girl power, about busting through the glass ceiling and telling women they can have it all. But in the process, did we lose the boys?
It's Been a Minute
Make America Male Again? Fifteen years of aggrieved men
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. All right.
It's Been a Minute
Make America Male Again? Fifteen years of aggrieved men
So in the aftermath of this election cycle, I've been hearing a lot about men, the role they played in reelecting Donald Trump, how Joe Rogan and podcast bros are a growing political force, and how all of this is connected to the economy. And every time I hear one of these conversations, I think about Hannah Rosen. Hannah Rosen, welcome to It's Been a Minute. Thank you. Excited to be here.
It's Been a Minute
Make America Male Again? Fifteen years of aggrieved men
Today, Hannah and I are going to trace how cultural norms prepared women for a changing world, while men were left in economic and societal stagnation, and how all of this laid the foundation for the return of Donald Trump.
It's Been a Minute
Make America Male Again? Fifteen years of aggrieved men
And talking about some of the challenges that men may be facing or dealing with in our current society. Let me describe a man to you.
It's Been a Minute
Make America Male Again? Fifteen years of aggrieved men
Yeah, I'm into it. We'll call him Luke. Let's call him Luke. Luke. Luke lives in a large town that's a little more rural than suburban Pennsylvania. He's middle-aged, about 45 years old. He's divorced. He doesn't see his children often. Luke is white and he makes around $40,000 a year. And he recently faced bankruptcy.
It's Been a Minute
Make America Male Again? Fifteen years of aggrieved men
If I told you this man stormed the Capitol building on January 6th, 2021, would that surprise you?
It's Been a Minute
Make America Male Again? Fifteen years of aggrieved men
Because Hannah began reporting about all of this 15 years ago, eventually publishing a book in 2012 called The End of Men. And Hannah... I don't want to be the one to have to tell you, but there are still men. There are still men.
It's Been a Minute
Make America Male Again? Fifteen years of aggrieved men
I mean, I got to come clean. Luke is not... a real person, but his characteristics were all ones pulled together from people's lives that actually did storm the Capitol on January 6th. And I brought up this kind of composite character, Luke, because I think that that character is a good way to think about how gender anxieties can actually be an expression of other anxieties in our lives.
It's Been a Minute
Make America Male Again? Fifteen years of aggrieved men
I mean, it's interesting because like when it comes to sort of like the Make America Great Again era, you know, like the past nearly 10 years, there's these like two competing gender ideals butting heads against one another. What do these two mentalities say about what we as Americans value? Or in other words, like, what hopes and fears do we unconsciously put inside of our views on gender?
It's Been a Minute
Make America Male Again? Fifteen years of aggrieved men
I hadn't thought about self-determination as a way of finding comfort. That's a very interesting reframe.
It's Been a Minute
Make America Male Again? Fifteen years of aggrieved men
All right. I'm going to take a quick break, but we have so much more to dig into. So stick around. I'll be right back. There is so much of this that to me strikes me as like societal attitudes. And some of our societal attitudes are so old and so baked into the way that we operate as a society, as a country, as Americans, as Westerners.
It's Been a Minute
Make America Male Again? Fifteen years of aggrieved men
Mine too. It's wild how that happens. What did you mean when you titled your book The End of Men?
It's Been a Minute
Make America Male Again? Fifteen years of aggrieved men
I can't help but think about how those sometimes are a hindrance to the change that you're talking about needs to happen. Yeah.
It's Been a Minute
Make America Male Again? Fifteen years of aggrieved men
Oh, fathers who are in their 30s presently?
It's Been a Minute
Make America Male Again? Fifteen years of aggrieved men
I want to put a metaphor to you. Do you know about like the strangling tree? Do you know about that? So there is this tree that grows up and around an existing tree, molding itself like around the contours and structures of the original tree. And then slowly over time, the strangling tree overtakes and suffocates the other tree.
It's Been a Minute
Make America Male Again? Fifteen years of aggrieved men
Do you see that as maybe perhaps a good metaphor for what's happening with men and women right now? Like women have had to adapt and grow around men while men have been able to maintain their status quo. But in the process now, you know, we've gotten to this point where women have advanced.
It's Been a Minute
Make America Male Again? Fifteen years of aggrieved men
And I mean, metaphorically, of course, men, you know, metaphorically, of course, have have, you know, slowly but surely advanced.
It's Been a Minute
Make America Male Again? Fifteen years of aggrieved men
No, that came through statistically, but that also came through in so many of the narratives of your book.
It's Been a Minute
Blocking your mom: why adult children are going no contact
Hello, hello, Brittany here. Before we start the show today, the end of another year is coming up and our team is looking back at all the conversations we've been able to bring to you about what's going on in culture. Things we could only do because of your support.
It's Been a Minute
Blocking your mom: why adult children are going no contact
You know, family is so personal, but it's also an institution. What does all of this say about how people are engaging with family on both of those levels, the personal level and the big, big, big societal level or the level of thinking about family as the major institution that it is?
It's Been a Minute
Blocking your mom: why adult children are going no contact
Those were TikTok users Kay Creasel Art, Ill B. Crown, and Laura Gray C. We're talking about familial estrangement. One study showed that 27% of Americans are estranged from at least one family member. There's been a lot of chatter about estrangement this year. Stories about it have been written up in the New York Times, Vox, and Vogue in the past year. And a common theme among those stories?
It's Been a Minute
Blocking your mom: why adult children are going no contact
You know, I think these conversations are just a reminder that no relationship in life should be taken for granted. Koei, Whitney, thank you both so much for coming on and talking with me about this.
It's Been a Minute
Blocking your mom: why adult children are going no contact
Thanks again to Koei Mwai, culture journalist, and Whitney Goodman, licensed marriage and family therapist and host of the Calling Home podcast. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Barton Girdwood, Alexis Williams, Liam McBain, Corey Antonio Rose. This episode was edited by Jasmine Romero. Engineering support came from Patrick Murray. Our executive producer is Jasmine Romero.
It's Been a Minute
Blocking your mom: why adult children are going no contact
Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
Blocking your mom: why adult children are going no contact
Estrangement happening between adult children and their parents. Which left me wondering, is estrangement happening more or is there just more attention on it? And are there bigger cultural changes that are bringing estrangement to the front of our minds? To find out, I am pleased to be joined by Whitney Goodman. a licensed marriage and family therapist and host of the Calling Home podcast. Hello.
It's Been a Minute
Blocking your mom: why adult children are going no contact
You and I dove into some of the biggest cultural shifts in 2024, from the movement to make America male again, the Hawk Tua phenomenon, and the Real House Wifification of Congress. Phew, it's not only been a minute, it's been a year. We've been able to report on these things for you because listeners like you step up to support our work, either by giving to your local station or by joining NPR+.
It's Been a Minute
Blocking your mom: why adult children are going no contact
And culture journalist, Koei Mwai. Thanks so much for having us. Let's get into it. What's different about the estrangement that's happening now in our current moment as opposed to simply losing closeness with family?
It's Been a Minute
Blocking your mom: why adult children are going no contact
Right. Because we're so interconnected, like estrangement now has to be done much more intentionally, I imagine.
It's Been a Minute
Blocking your mom: why adult children are going no contact
Yeah, I wasn't able to find data about estrangement rates in the past, but is it happening more or are people just more open about it now?
It's Been a Minute
Blocking your mom: why adult children are going no contact
And now it's like a normal thing. So it's not necessarily a new thing as much as some of the stigma around sharing about it has changed.
It's Been a Minute
Blocking your mom: why adult children are going no contact
Whitney, your work is about improving relationships between adult family members. And because of that, you work with both estranged adult children and parents. And you've done some surveys with each. What themes are you seeing pop up in how and why estrangements are happening on a personal level?
It's Been a Minute
Blocking your mom: why adult children are going no contact
Sorry, I've never heard of so many people agreeing. I know. On one experience on a survey. That's wild. That is wild.
It's Been a Minute
Blocking your mom: why adult children are going no contact
Are there differences in how adult children and their parents understand the estrangement?
It's Been a Minute
Blocking your mom: why adult children are going no contact
When you sign up for a simple recurring donation on NPR+, you support our mission of creating a more informed public and get special perks for more than 25 NPR podcasts. like sponsor-free listening and bonus episodes. Join us on the Plus side today at plus.npr.org. That's plus.npr.org. And that link is also in our episode notes. Thank you so much. Now, let's get some culture. Hello, hello.
It's Been a Minute
Blocking your mom: why adult children are going no contact
Hmm. Kali, you've done some reporting on estrangement, but you've also experienced estrangement. What do adult children get out of estrangement that is worth the pain of losing touch with family?
It's Been a Minute
Blocking your mom: why adult children are going no contact
Coming up, are there generational divides in how we want to relate to family? Stay with us.
It's Been a Minute
Blocking your mom: why adult children are going no contact
Those were TikTok users Sarah Willeman Rainey, Liv Elizabeth Gifford, and Ilby Crown. We've talked about some of the disintegration that can happen in family relationships on like a personal level. But what are the cultural shifts that are driving these changes and how we relate to family? Kowie, I'd love to hear from you first.
It's Been a Minute
Blocking your mom: why adult children are going no contact
I've been thinking a lot about just how much the standards have been raised for all relationships, even in my lifetime. And I'm a millennial. I feel like I was taught when I was younger that I should look for a romantic partner who respects me. But I don't feel like we're taught more generally to expect respect from family members. Like the phrase is respect your elders, not respect your children.
It's Been a Minute
Blocking your mom: why adult children are going no contact
You know, maybe a lot of less than nice behavior gets by in a lot of families with, you know, I don't have to be nice to you. We're family, that kind of attitude. I think that cuts across culturally a lot of different groups of people.
It's Been a Minute
Blocking your mom: why adult children are going no contact
Yeah. Also, a number of Americans seeking mental health treatment is almost twice as high as it was two decades ago. And I think with that, there's been a lowering of the bar for what constitutes trauma. Like it used to be big T trauma, you know, like a car accident, surviving a fire, being a war veteran, surviving some type of physical attack or assault.
It's Been a Minute
Blocking your mom: why adult children are going no contact
But now there's little T trauma, a lot of, you know, emotional abandonment or emotional neglect that, you know, these are things that can feel extremely devastating and leave emotional scars. And I can't back this up necessarily, but it does seem to me that that shift is generational.
It's Been a Minute
Blocking your mom: why adult children are going no contact
Kaui, you know, from my own perspective, I thought of estrangement as like a white people thing. Like, I remember seeing the movie Soul Food from The 90s, you know, there's Terry, who's the oldest sister of the family of three sisters, trying to hold on to Big Mama's house. I mean, the family spent up all her money. Her cousin slept with her husband.
It's Been a Minute
Blocking your mom: why adult children are going no contact
Her sister stole and then later married her boyfriend. But she was still the reliable big sister who everybody was supposed to depend on. I think that there's been a reappraisal of that film recently that caused people to actually urge Terry to run from her family and never look back. But I think that that idea of family above everything is very culturally strong.
It's Been a Minute
Blocking your mom: why adult children are going no contact
Like, I think that's just, I felt growing up, that's just how all Black families are supposed to be. And, you know, as you shared about your own estrangement, that's something that I've seen more and more people speak up about and share about. So, you know, as we discussed, estrangement does happen within Black families.
It's Been a Minute
Blocking your mom: why adult children are going no contact
But I wonder, though, if there is a different culture around estrangement for families of color or immigrant families in general.
It's Been a Minute
Blocking your mom: why adult children are going no contact
We are deep in holiday season, the time of year when many of us go back home to see our families. But this year, a lot of people aren't going home and maybe haven't been for some time.
It's Been a Minute
Blocking your mom: why adult children are going no contact
you know, there are some people who are going to be hearing this conversation or who are looking at our changing cultural discussions around family estrangement and saying that, you know, it's just a part of like rampant individualism. I think we've all read or heard stories from parents who are deeply hurt by estrangement. Are there cases where estrangement does more harm than
It's Been a Minute
Mormon Moms: Unpacking a national obsession
Very interesting that that is a fantasy for so many people.
It's Been a Minute
Mormon Moms: Unpacking a national obsession
Jana says, to be clear. Well, Jana, thank you so much. This was a really enlightening conversation, and I really appreciate you coming on the show. Thank you so much for having me. That was Jana Rees. She's a senior columnist at Religious News Service and the author of The Next Mormons, How Millennials Are Changing the LDS Church.
It's Been a Minute
Mormon Moms: Unpacking a national obsession
This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Barton Girdwood, Alexis Williams, Liam McBain, Corey Antonio Rose. This episode was edited by Jessica Plachek. Engineering support came from James Keeley. Our executive producer is Jasmine Romero. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
Mormon Moms: Unpacking a national obsession
Those needs a project. But all this fame, it's also brought controversy. In late July, the Times of London published a profile on Hannah Neal Lynn that seemed to poke holes in her picture-perfect life. And it called into question the level of agency she had over some of her life choices.
It's Been a Minute
Mormon Moms: Unpacking a national obsession
That's author and journalist Jenna Reese, senior columnist at Religious News Service and author of The Next Mormons. And she's here to take us behind the curtain and understand why millions of us, Mormon or not, are tuning in to watch these women live their lives. Is it just a coincidence? Or is there something about the culture of the Mormon church that primes them for popularity?
It's Been a Minute
Mormon Moms: Unpacking a national obsession
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. I gotta say, I am kind of obsessed with Mormons. And I'm not alone. The Church of Latter-day Saints has been a source of public fascination for years.
It's Been a Minute
Mormon Moms: Unpacking a national obsession
So Jana, you're someone who's been in the Mormon church for over 30 years now. And you've seen Mormon mom influencers adapt to new online platforms for a long time. And I have to ask because I'm not seeing a ton of like Muslim wife content or Hindu wife content. And I do not see evangelical wife content being this popular, truly.
It's Been a Minute
Mormon Moms: Unpacking a national obsession
Is there something about Mormon culture or within the religion that makes people in the church more open to using it as a way of sharing their lives?
It's Been a Minute
Mormon Moms: Unpacking a national obsession
Not like outright evangelizing like one might think of.
It's Been a Minute
Mormon Moms: Unpacking a national obsession
There's the hit musical, The Book of Mormon, HBO's Big Love, about a Mormon fundamentalist family that practices polygamy, and, of course, former presidential candidate Mitt Romney. But lately, there's been an influx of content around a specific part of the Mormon church. It's women. And people have been eating it. This year, Mormon women have been everywhere.
It's Been a Minute
Mormon Moms: Unpacking a national obsession
Oh yeah, to think that like the saints are going to be looking over your shoulder at all your worst thoughts. I could see that being a little stressful, yeah.
It's Been a Minute
Mormon Moms: Unpacking a national obsession
That makes a lot of sense when you think about some of the social media accounts that are dedicated to more like creative and advanced forms of journaling, like scrapbooking.
It's Been a Minute
Mormon Moms: Unpacking a national obsession
I wonder, to that point, was there a moment or a point where you felt like the Church of Latter-day Saints started to embrace the Internet or embrace the popularity that some of its members were finding on the Internet as like a positive?
It's Been a Minute
Mormon Moms: Unpacking a national obsession
They are dominating reality TV on Hulu's The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives.
It's Been a Minute
Mormon Moms: Unpacking a national obsession
Coming up, we get into what the intrigue in Mormon Mommy content says about the kind of country we want to live in. Stay with us. One thing people have noted about these influencers, specifically Ballerina Farm and model Mormon mommy, Nara Smith, is that their content leans heavily into the trad wife aesthetic. For those who don't know, trad wife is shorthand for the term traditional wife.
It's Been a Minute
Mormon Moms: Unpacking a national obsession
a brand of social media influencer that is all about keeping things simple, taking care of her husband and taking care of her home. Now, both of these women, Nara Smith and Ballerina Farm, have pushed back on the term trad wife. And they say they are proud of the careers that they built for themselves. But that's kind of the irony in this whole situation.
It's Been a Minute
Mormon Moms: Unpacking a national obsession
So much of like hashtag girl bossing was about the performance of work. Like you're going to see my spreadsheets. You're going to see me in the C-suite meeting. Like I'm constantly taking calls. And these ladies seem to lean heavily into obscuring that part of their lives from watching their TikToks and Instagram reels. You might not know that they're running businesses.
It's Been a Minute
Mormon Moms: Unpacking a national obsession
And two of the biggest trad wife influencers on TikTok are Mormon. Nara Smith.
It's Been a Minute
Mormon Moms: Unpacking a national obsession
What kind of values do you see creators like Nara and Hannah upholding, either explicitly or implicitly?
It's Been a Minute
Mormon Moms: Unpacking a national obsession
and Hannah Nealman, better known by her handle, Ballerina Farm. Today, we're making some Turkish eggs. Hannah is a former Juilliard-trained dancer turned TikTok influencer, and she got insanely popular. I'm talking 10 million Instagram followers and even the stamp of approval from the Martha Stewart, all by making little bite-sized videos about how she raises her eight kids on the prairie in Utah.
It's Been a Minute
Mormon Moms: Unpacking a national obsession
Mormons are producing the domestic lifestyle content we're discussing today. But they're definitely not the only ones watching. Right? It can't be that y'all are the only ones watching, right? Why do you think other people are so interested in watching this content?
It's Been a Minute
Mormon Moms: Unpacking a national obsession
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. We've seen a lot of changes, both in the past 50 years and in the past two or three years, in how people... can access family planning tools. But additionally, even outside of that, it seems that many people are just across the board less interested in having children or interested in having as many children.
It's Been a Minute
Mormon Moms: Unpacking a national obsession
And something that seems to pepper a lot of Mormon or Mormon-adjacent content is a big, bountiful family.
It's Been a Minute
Mormon Moms: Unpacking a national obsession
I wonder, you know, to your point, you brought up as a historian the fact that this kind of like fantasy of a grand old past is attracting a lot of people of various backgrounds to this content. I wonder, why do you think people are so nostalgic for this lost, bygone era that kind of didn't really even exist?
It's Been a Minute
Your date gave you 'The Ick?' That might be a YOU problem.
Wow. So you heard it here first, basically. Josh said if you're getting the ick, it's on you. That's a you problem. That was Josh Rotman. He's a professor of psychology at Franklin and Marshall College and a researcher of cognition and emotion.
It's Been a Minute
Your date gave you 'The Ick?' That might be a YOU problem.
And so to all of you listening, we started this segment with the question, is the ick about your date or is it about you? I feel confident now in saying that it's mostly about you and me. But to close out, I want to pose a new question for all of us to chew on. If the ick is about us, what are we going to do about it?
It's Been a Minute
Your date gave you 'The Ick?' That might be a YOU problem.
Let us all know how you've gotten over the ick by commenting on this episode in Spotify or leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. I can't wait to hear your advice. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Liam McBain. Barton Girdwood. Our executive producer is Jasmine Romero. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. And a shout out to NPR's Corey Antonio Rose and B.A.
It's Been a Minute
Your date gave you 'The Ick?' That might be a YOU problem.
Parker for their thoughts on the ick. I'm your host, Brittany Luce. Talk soon, y'all.
It's Been a Minute
Your date gave you 'The Ick?' That might be a YOU problem.
I've got the ick. The ick. Cringe. I mean, the slang that Love Island has made pop in the United States. What a powerful show. But I digress. What exactly is the ick? Here's how B.A. Parker, co-host of NPR's Code Switch, and It's Been a Minute producer Corey Antonio Rose explain it.
It's Been a Minute
Your date gave you 'The Ick?' That might be a YOU problem.
I think of it as this disgust response to something that's mostly innocuous, but might give us pause with someone we're dating. But I wanted to hear about the ick from the people. So I went out on the streets of New York City to hear some of your icks. Have you ever gotten the ick?
It's Been a Minute
Your date gave you 'The Ick?' That might be a YOU problem.
What? I got one. Plumber's crack is a little not... You know what?
It's Been a Minute
Your date gave you 'The Ick?' That might be a YOU problem.
Literally, why are you tripping?
It's Been a Minute
Your date gave you 'The Ick?' That might be a YOU problem.
So you get it, right? The ick is something that's not really wrong or bad per se, but it's this tiny bit of disgust that you just can't look past or get over. And it's based solely on your own preferences. And since it's so individual, that has me, Parker, and Corey Antonio wondering, is the ick about your date or is it about you? And to answer that question, we're going to play a little game.
It's Been a Minute
Your date gave you 'The Ick?' That might be a YOU problem.
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. What is the most notable time you got the ick? Someone's laugh was a bit too much.
It's Been a Minute
Your date gave you 'The Ick?' That might be a YOU problem.
Okay, okay, so we're going to play a little bit of a game. I've got some anecdotes here about people getting the ick, and you're going to rule on whether it's icky, like someone really was acting icky, or tricky, like the person submitting actually just didn't like the other person like that, and is just playing a trick on themselves.
It's Been a Minute
Your date gave you 'The Ick?' That might be a YOU problem.
Icky means it's them. Tricky means it's you. Okay.
It's Been a Minute
Your date gave you 'The Ick?' That might be a YOU problem.
From a friend of the show. I once dated someone who inserted meow into words, i.e. I'm coming over right meow or that's a meowsing. And she did it all the time. I think I lasted a month and a half. What do y'all think about that?
It's Been a Minute
Your date gave you 'The Ick?' That might be a YOU problem.
I think it's icky. I'm sorry, Corianton. You could deal with a man where you text him and you're just like, hey, what's up? How are you doing today? And he's like, I'm meowsing. You would like that?
It's Been a Minute
Your date gave you 'The Ick?' That might be a YOU problem.
Okay. Corey Antonio says we need more context. Interesting perspective. Okay. All right. We got another one from the Reddit page r slash women over 30. This one woman over 30 said, I dated this guy for a few months. He was a nice person, decent boyfriend, tall and nice looking. One day we were making out. We both paused for a second and he looked at me and said, very nice in a Borat voice.
It's Been a Minute
Your date gave you 'The Ick?' That might be a YOU problem.
I knew at that moment that it was over for me. LOL. Shut it down. Corrie and Tony, you're shaking your head. You have a hand covering your mouth and shaking your head.
It's Been a Minute
Your date gave you 'The Ick?' That might be a YOU problem.
So a meow is a little festive, but a Borat voice is out of the question. Time and place. Time and place. Okay. Time and place. Time and place. Okay. So here's one from an article about queer women and their icks from Vice. One person says, I was dating this girl and she kept describing things as artsy. Like she's so artsy. And you're more of an artsy type and artsy skirt.
It's Been a Minute
Your date gave you 'The Ick?' That might be a YOU problem.
It just made me irrationally repulsed. What do y'all think?
It's Been a Minute
Your date gave you 'The Ick?' That might be a YOU problem.
I think when I first heard this, I was like, oh, icky. But you know what? The more I think about it, I think it's tricky because I think it's one of those things that if you really liked someone, you would think it was the cutest thing in the world that they called everything artsy. Like you would just think it was so adorable and so sweet and you would find it to be one of their cute little isms.
It's Been a Minute
Your date gave you 'The Ick?' That might be a YOU problem.
Let's find some new words. Mama, let's research. Let's expand. Let's expand. So yes, talking about the ick, thinking about the ick, and laughing about the ick is all fun and games, but there's this psychological thesis that all emotions from fear to disgust were evolutionarily advantageous traits, but are they serving us now?
It's Been a Minute
Your date gave you 'The Ick?' That might be a YOU problem.
Later, one professor of psychology explains why the ick is actually very bad for all of us. We'll be right back.
It's Been a Minute
Your date gave you 'The Ick?' That might be a YOU problem.
What did it sound like? Just for the listener to understand. It was like a... Now you're giving me the ick. It has caught like a yawn. It wasn't great. Did you hear that? It's the sound of cuffing season. The time of year where the weather cools down and folks look for a warm body to cuddle up with. But we're getting into some of the less warm and fuzzy aspects of dating.
It's Been a Minute
Your date gave you 'The Ick?' That might be a YOU problem.
So what do each of you think is the purpose of the ick?
It's Been a Minute
Your date gave you 'The Ick?' That might be a YOU problem.
No, I'll tell you what. I think a lot of us struggle with wrapping it up when we see a red flag.
It's Been a Minute
Your date gave you 'The Ick?' That might be a YOU problem.
Some of us have sat in with a red flag for a little too long. For a couple years at times.
It's Been a Minute
Your date gave you 'The Ick?' That might be a YOU problem.
I don't know. I think it could be kind of a mix also. Like maybe an ick from one person is not a problem on someone that's really right for you. Like, for example, there was this one guy that I was dating that I got the ick with. I still remember the day. It was the Saturday night before Easter, 2006. Oh my gosh. Because I saw him in his house shoes and I was...
It's Been a Minute
Your date gave you 'The Ick?' That might be a YOU problem.
disgusted i don't know what it was i was just like oh like i mean i think about it still to this day he was a little bit too at home in front of you is what it sounds a little bit too at home oh but you know what though the thing is is that my husband wears he's like mr slipper i think it's so cute when he wears his slippers he wears his slippers i'm just like oh i love it i don't know it's like it depends on the person depends on the context
It's Been a Minute
Your date gave you 'The Ick?' That might be a YOU problem.
Also, though, I think sometimes – I think there are ways in which, though, it can be kind of aligned with isms. Like on – let's take it back to Reddit. Like on the r slash AskMen Reddit page, there are a lot of entries about their ics being acrylics, like acrylic nails or vocal fry or liking astrology stuff.
It's Been a Minute
Your date gave you 'The Ick?' That might be a YOU problem.
Right. But also I saw a woman on TikTok saying that she got the ick because a guy she was on a date with knew more about her lip gloss than she did. Does the ick also sometimes reinforce structural social disgust?
It's Been a Minute
Your date gave you 'The Ick?' That might be a YOU problem.
Preference. That word comes up a lot in dating. These personal lists of what you want or don't want in a partner. And while you may think that your preferences are personal tastes, you'd be wrong. Your preferences are as influenced by socialization as your taste buds.
It's Been a Minute
Your date gave you 'The Ick?' That might be a YOU problem.
To dig into this part of the ick, the disgust for things you prefer not to have around, I called up professor of psychology, Josh Rotman. He studies the psychological development of disgust in early childhood.
It's Been a Minute
Your date gave you 'The Ick?' That might be a YOU problem.
Now, this question of where disgust comes from has been hotly debated in psychology. Freud theorized that it was a way for humans to differentiate themselves from animals. We got grossed out by other animals and their behaviors as a way to be more evolved. Other theorists thought it evolutionarily developed as a way for us to avoid bacteria, like the smell of bad meat.
It's Been a Minute
Your date gave you 'The Ick?' That might be a YOU problem.
It smells disgusting, so we don't eat it. But Josh has a different theory. That disgust wasn't just a biological development, but a social one too.
It's Been a Minute
Your date gave you 'The Ick?' That might be a YOU problem.
Right, it keeps them from licking things in public. Yeah, exactly. Touching things that are gross, yeah.
It's Been a Minute
Your date gave you 'The Ick?' That might be a YOU problem.
Does it serve us or hinder us, like with people that we're dating? Is this something that helps us or does it harm us? Yeah.
It's Been a Minute
Your date gave you 'The Ick?' That might be a YOU problem.
we're kicking off cuffing season with some of the big questions and big debates about dating. This week, we're getting into one of the common reasons people stop dating someone. It's a little term first used by the 90s TV show Ally McBeal, and then it really took off a couple of years ago on the reality show Love Island. I'm talking about the ink. I say, can I eat?
It's Been a Minute
Your date gave you 'The Ick?' That might be a YOU problem.
When we were looking for icks to discuss in this episode, some that were unearthed were Millie Bobby Brown, the young actress. She said that one of her icks was men holding umbrellas because she said it was pathetic.
It's Been a Minute
Your date gave you 'The Ick?' That might be a YOU problem.
Another woman we talked to in the street said she found tripping, like a man tripping and falling, to be an ick.
It's Been a Minute
Your date gave you 'The Ick?' That might be a YOU problem.
But it sounds like you're saying more often than not, like, revulsion at those types of things is bad for us.
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
That is a good point. And that hat. Because that hat is actually too big to sit next to her in a car. So did the hat have its own car? I don't know. Did she have to lay the seat all the way back? I don't know. I don't know. Okay, category number two, size matters. Who deserves the award for the look that emphasized the biggest or the littlest looks of them all?
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
So who was wearing something real tiny or something very big and grand?
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
Okay, I'll allow it. I'll allow it. I'll allow it. I'll allow it. I'll allow it. Antoine, though. We're going to start with you. Who wore it best and why?
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
It was gigantic. I loved it. I loved it. What about you, Shelton? The biggest or the littlest?
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
Before y'all go, though, Antoine, I know yesterday you toured the Black Dandyism exhibition at the Met. And I'm curious, what from the exhibition that connects this moment in fashion all the way back to the first Black people in America, what is going to stick with you in the weeks and months ahead?
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
Antoine Shelton. Thank you both so much for joining me today.
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
That was culture writer Shelton Boyd Griffith and the editor-in-chief of Black Fashion Fair, Antoine Gregory. And please, please, please let me know your favorite looks of the night in the comments on this episode. I am dying to hear what you all think too. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Alexis Williams, Liam McBain, Corey Bridges, This episode was edited by Nina Potok.
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
Our supervising producer is Barton Girdwood. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
Oh yeah, she was wearing like a custom design that she co-designed with herself and the famed costume designer, Ruth E. Carter.
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. Hello. Okay, Shelton and Antoine, you both saw it all. The Met Gala 2025. Were you gooped? Were you gagged? How are you feeling?
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
I agree. I totally love it. Okay. So who is your best dressed man?
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
Across the board, Grace Wales Bonner dressed so many people across the board in incredible, incredible ways. I mean, FKA Twigs had this gorgeous flapper-like 20s dress that was totally different than what Lewis Hamilton was wearing. That beautiful, crisp, white suit with the cowrie shell details and all that incredible jewelry and that beautiful hat.
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
Just across the board, shout out Grace Willis Bonner. You really did it. You really did have a fight.
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
Dressing Monica Miller. The Monica Miller.
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
That was really special.
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
Okay. Okay. And Shelton, was Antoine right? Who would you say were the best dressed man and woman of the evening?
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
Oh my gosh. And that beautiful, big structured coat.
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
Andre Leontali, for those who don't know, worked at Vogue from 1983 to 2013 and eventually became an editor at large for the magazine.
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
The outfit felt like something that was very true to her kind of idiosyncratic style. It didn't feel like she was trying to wear an Andre Leon Talley costume. And then, I mean, you know, I watched the red carpet interviews. I saw some people who were like, I'm wearing a white button down and this is a tribute to Andre Leon Talley. And I'm like, girl, I guess so. Yeah. You know, anything can be.
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
Stretching the references. Stretching the references.
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
Exactly. Exactly. All right. And Shelton, who was your best dressed man?
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
Sourced from eBay, right?
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
Seeing Rosalia, I mean, you described her as a mannequin. I mean, that dress was smooth like porcelain. I don't know how she got there. I don't know how she...
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
enjoyed the evening i don't know how she got home i don't know how she got into the dress but it was like a smooth like it was like perfectly sculpted to her body this long white column perfectly sculpted there was some draping around the hips and further down the dress but i mean the bodice of that was like it was the perfect mannequin um well You know, I did love these looks, but I'm sorry.
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The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
I just got to stay. I have to say my piece. I have to say my piece. Oh, Lord. So my best dressed man was Guillaume Jope in Custom Valentino by Ali Santos. I, this, this outfit was so gorgeous. First of all, it was like a beautiful white pant, white shirt underneath, a yellow, like mustard yellow, golden rod maybe even.
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The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
Like golden rod with ruby piping, gold button, maybe not gold buttons, but golden rod jacket, ruby piping, double breasted. The most gorgeous coat. I'm like, literally, a part of me, I don't want to commit crimes, but a part of me, I had waited outside of the Met, driven my car up there, waited outside of the Met, and been like, you need to give me this jacket. I'll fight you.
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The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
I felt like a lot of the best looks from the men of the night were from men who fully embraced both the sense of humor and also the... Lack of a rigid approach to masculinity.
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The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
My best-dressed pick for a woman was Lauryn Hill, Butter Yellow, Chaney Chan. Very amazing. But we got to move on, okay? So we already touched on this. A little bit. Let's be clear. Every year, every year the Met Gala has a theme and that theme is attached to the Costume Institute's exhibition, which this year is called Superfine Tailoring Black Style.
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The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
That means celebrities and designers were encouraged to style looks for the Met Gala inspired by the black fashion tradition known as black dandyism. Black dandyism is about fine tailoring with flair or exuberance added to it. You know, sometimes feathers or hats or exaggerated finishes and accessories.
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The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
But this was also the very first Met Gala theme that honored a specifically black fashion tradition. Which makes me wonder, y'all have seen just as many, if not more Met Galas than I have. Overall, did a Black theme mean that this was like the Blackest Met Gala ever? I mean, because Black people come every single year and show up and show out.
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The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
I wonder, was there anything markedly different about this event than from past events? Other than... Aside from Stevie Wonder performing, which not everybody in that room deserved, but I know that I did.
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The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
Wait, say more about that. I want to hear from y'all on this.
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The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
In my mind, I would have thought that when you're talking about tailoring Black style, like I saw Thames wearing Oswald Boateng, but I would have thought he would have been somebody as like, you know, one of the only... black tailors ever on Savile Row. I thought he would have been somebody who would have been a featured talent.
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The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
So what you all listening can't see right now. Is it laying out in front of me or all of my notes from the Met Gala last night? It's only been like 12 hours since fashion's biggest night. And I have just been dying to talk about who had the best and worst looks of the night. Thank God, culture writer Shelton Boyd Griffith is back here with me. Hi, Shelton.
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The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
I also want to note that one of our listeners, PL McGee, reached out wanting to know more of your thoughts on how queerness showed up. As you both pointed out in our last episode, dandyism is intimately connected to queerness. And I wonder how you did or did not see queerness on display last night.
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The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
Oh, Jeremy's outfit.
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The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
Like, there was obviously a lot of, like, uptown pimp references.
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The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
As somebody who has... Seen in Uptown Pimp or two, like the outfit felt very, a lot of the details of the outfit felt very faithful. But also too, there was a little bit of throwback kind of stud aesthetic to it. Kind of like queer references across time. All right. Shelton, Antoine, we come to a point. We got to be honest. Who was the worst dressed of the night? Okay. I have one answer.
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The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
Coming up, the moment you've all been waiting for, the worst dressed of the night. We're calling it how it is and awarding special prizes after a quick break.
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The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
All right, Shelton, Antoine, we come to a point. We got to be honest. Who was the worst dressed of the night, okay?
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The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
That actually wasn't one of my worst. That was definitely my most boring list. I had a separate list of people where I was like, okay, I guess you came. I guess you came. You showed up. What about you, Antoine? Who was your absolute worst dressed?
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The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
And the editor-in-chief for Black Fashion Fair, Antoine Gregory. Welcome back, Antoine.
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The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
I was disappointed in the blue cape because I was like... At first I saw it and I was like, okay, like I definitely get the Othello reference. It also, even the top of like the detail of like the blue cape, the top detail was like this metallic that had all this texture. I was like, okay, this is kind of reminding me of like the costumes that like the... New Orleans Mardi Gras Indians wear.
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The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
I was like, okay, I kind of see this. But, but, but, but I was expecting to see something underneath the cape. It felt like an afterthought to me because I was expecting to see something underneath the cape that matched the cape. So it would feel like this, you know, I mean, a big part, at least I'm from, I'm from the Detroit area. A big part of black style there is matching.
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The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
This is a dream team right here. Okay, I can't wait any longer. Who did it? Who was your best dressed of the night? And before you start listing off, multiple people. Okay, I'm going to be vicious. You can only pick one.
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The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
We love a matchy matchy match. Like going to Howard for the first time and realizing that not everybody would wear. Like matching colors head to toe. I was in shock because it's so important where I'm from. Yeah, I was expecting at least under the blue cape that I didn't expect to see this black and white suit. And I was a little, I felt a little down by the fact that there was no coordination.
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The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
Now, see, I want to talk about Pharrell right now. Very safe. I want to talk about Pharrell right now. Because when I talk about my worst dress, it's actually not Pharrell. Although, Pharrell is responsible for my worst dress.
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The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
I'm looking at my worst dress like, girl. But also, I'm looking at Pharrell like, girl. It's Lisa Manoval. Lisa from Blackpink. La Lisa. Oh. Custom Louis Vuitton. Now, when I first saw the look, I thought, okay, it's like, it's whatever. It's kind of dry. Like, it's like an embroidered, like sparkly, spangly blazer. And some LV tights.
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The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
Why none of the women that Pharrell dressed had on pants, could wear a full pant? To me, I'm like, that's a tailoring issue. Because what do you mean you told Sabrina Carpenter she can't have pants for her outfit? Because she's short. She's short. What does that even mean? But the panties, I got to talk about Lisa Manoval's panties because she said she wanted to be a tribute to black women.
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The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
Why? Okay. So the tribute and Pharrell allowed this to happen. Okay. The tribute was the faces of black women embroidered into the panties. Why is Rosa Parks face embroidered on your panties? Okay. What's going on? What's going on?
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The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
So, you know, Pharrell, listen. I don't know what's going on over there. I don't know. Maybe you're not in charge of the quality control. I don't know what happened. All right. Now, I have a couple more imaginary trophies to give out. We have two categories. Y'all just shout out who you think deserves them. Category number one. oh my God, how did she get in that car?
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The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
This is the award for the look that seemed humanly impossible. Like, how did this person get to the Met Gala? Because I don't see how they were able to sit down or fit their outfit inside of a car.
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The Met Gala: the indisputable best & worst looks of the night
I mean, that was like a 30-foot train. Yeah, I was like, how did that fit? How? That, I definitely see that. What about you, Shelton?
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
Hey, it's Brittany Luce. Real quick before the show, it's been a wild, exciting, exhausting election season. If you want to follow what's going on and make sure you don't miss a development, we want you to know that there are three things you can listen to every day. NPR's morning news podcast, Up First, is recorded before dawn and out by 7 a.m. Eastern time each weekday.
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
But it seems like they're actually going to highlight the fact that she has acquired power and that she has power.
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
By my count, there are at least seven movies this year that feature older women falling in love with much younger men. There's The Idea of You, A Family Affair, Lonely Planet, and Baby Girl, just to name a few. But why now?
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
Which I feel like is also missing from a lot of these films.
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
A 10-year-old who says that he's her husband reincarnated. What about that? What about that? Hmm? Yeah. Wow, Nicole Kidman. I'm like, girl, maybe she should come in here. I'm going to be like, what's up?
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
I'm like, Nicole Kidman, give me your opinion. Between birth, a family affair... And Baby Girl. I mean, what it really is is a triptych.
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
Oh, my gosh. Rachel, it is always just a pleasure to have you on the show. You are just so brilliant. And I am so glad every time I get to talk to you.
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
That was Rachel Handler, features writer for New York Magazine. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Barton Girdwood, Alexis Williams, Liam McBain, Corey Antonio Rose. This episode was edited by Jessica Plachek. Our executive producer is Jasmine Romero. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce.
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
New York Magazine features writer Rachel Handler. She wrote about why older women are this year's most coveted object of desire.
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
Hot moms are obviously timeless. I mean, we've seen hot moms in cinema for a long time. There was Mrs. Robinson in The Graduate. What do you think of me?
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
You've known me nearly all your life. You must have formed some opinion of me. Or Stifler's mom from American Pie. Stifler's mom. Hey, Finji. How did you know I was here? I called a couple of weeks ago. For the longest time, these hot moms were usually seen as cougars, lusty older women circling in on younger men. But these new movies are very different.
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
To start, the moms are the main subjects on journeys of self-discovery and exploration, a far cry from strategic predators. I sat down with Rachel to unpack what three of these films say about Hollywood's changing attitudes towards older women and why the category of quote unquote women's film still feels behind the times. Rachel Handler, we're so happy to have you.
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
So we're here to talk about the Hot Mom Rom-Com. How do you feel about the Hot Mom Rom-Com boom?
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
You know, I kind of agree with you on that. Some of the recent films that I have seen this year featuring a sexy older woman with a younger guy who's like really trying to get with her. I'm rubbing my right temple right now because I've seen some things that have really stressed me out. But you know what? Where there is a lot of room for growth, there also is a lot of room for discussion.
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
It's the morning podcast that captures the news overnight. Up First, 7 a.m. Later in the day, you can find a new episode of the NPR Politics Podcast with context and analysis on the big stories whenever they happen. So like you get an alert, big breaking news, you don't know what to think? Look for the NPR Politics Podcast a few hours later.
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
Of course. But I feel like we're kind of like watching cinema to try to figure out that women don't face total social death after age 40. Yeah. Yeah. I almost like have to like suppress laughter at that idea.
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
Yes, yes. I want to get into some of these films. Starting with two movies that are pretty similar. A Family Affair, which we'll get to in a second. And The Idea of You. Hi.
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
Yeah. Yeah. The Idea of You follows Anne Hathaway's character who is a beautiful and very cool mom with her own business. She's like 40 or 41 or something like that. And she falls in love with a much younger pop star played by Nicholas Godseen. They had great chemistry. They did. I love him. Great chemistry.
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
What is that song? It's nothing really. I like it. Yeah? Yeah. I was into their romance.
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
And then there's a family affair, which has Nicole Kidman also falling in love with a celebrity, this time a movie star played by Zac Efron.
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
So these movies are kind of similar. What do you think they say about being a hot mom?
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
She wants him. Yeah. I also found it so interesting in those films that they just act like no one would ever ask them out. When we first see Nicole Kidman's character, she's this really fabulous writer. She's got this huge, gorgeous home. But when we see her, she's snapping green beans or shelling peas or something like that. And I'm just like, what?
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
And finally, consider this as the podcast where NPR covers one big story in depth every weekday evening. They will be all over this election and its aftermath too. So up first in the morning, consider this in the evening, an NPR politics podcast anytime big stuff happens. And around the clock election news survival kit from NPR podcasts. All right, thanks for listening. Here's the show.
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
She's snapping peas or something for her grown daughter to come home and eat dinner. And I'm like... Okay. You mean to tell me that a woman looks like Nicole Kidman with all this money, she doesn't have any friends to be with.
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
She doesn't have a pottery class that she wants to do. She doesn't have a trip to take. There's no other men asking her out. And the idea of you, which is interesting because they appeared to have, I think, the narrowest age gap of all of the But the whole movie, Selene.
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
Her grandparents are French. Selene. The whole time she's like, ah, you're too young for me. I'm so old. I'm too old for him. I'm too old for you.
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
Okay. I mean, I knew what we were getting into with the film. Like, I get it.
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
Why do you think that those films spend so much time kind of like focused on that aspect of these romances?
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
I mean, my husband is a film editor and we were watching a family affair and I'm looking at Nicole Kidman, Kathy Bates, Zac Efron, and Joey King. Four talented people. They're having this conversation that is so goofy. It was pitch black, so I figured the only way out was to go through the desert.
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
And my husband noted that he's like, oh, he was like, well, this is like the camera setup is the same as like the view. Yeah. He was like, they got three cameras. They have an A camera, B camera, C camera. It's like shot like a sitcom. Yes. He's like, if you have Nicole Kidman, why would you do that?
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
Okay, coming up, we're done with the Hot Mom movie bombs, and we're going to open up the good stuff. What Hot Mom rom-com has us ready to risk it all? Stick around. All right, let's talk about another movie that wasn't a disaster, Between the Temples, which is a movie I loved.
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So it's one of my favorite movies of the year, actually.
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
It's a movie about a widow in her 70s played by the fantastic Carol Kane. And she wants to get bat mitzvahed because she didn't have one when she was younger. And she ends up finding love with a much younger but still 40-something-year-old Hebrew school teacher played by Jason Schwartzman.
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
I can look into it. Between the Temples. Beautiful film. Carol Kane and Jason Schwartzman have genuine deep chemistry. And I felt like they connected because they had things in common.
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. A warning, this segment contains references to sex and sexuality. Okay, y'all, is it just me, or are we in a hot mom rom-com boom? Boom.
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
No, are you kidding me? And that's the other thing I'll say that the film does really well is that I remember watching it and feeling like, at least within the world of the film and through the eyes of the filmmaker, it was like, well, who wouldn't be in love with this woman?
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
As opposed to showing you a very conventionally attractive, young-looking character. Anne Hathaway. And being like, the audience needs for her character to ask the heavens, why oh why does this young hot guy like me?
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
As opposed to, yeah, I felt like in Between the Temples, the gaze of the film was looking at Carole Kane, you know, this really gorgeous, fantastic woman in her 70s, and being like, I mean, can you blame him?
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
I mean, I left the movie being like, I'm risking it all for her.
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
Very good point. It's interesting because, I mean... When I feel like films do lean into the eroticism of that dynamic, that's when you get Stifler's mom played by Jennifer Coolidge.
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
It's like a joke. It's not typically something that is treated very seriously. Like whether it's the woman's desires are not serious or the man's desires or attraction to this woman cannot be serious. Exactly. Exactly. And I imagine that there are some people who probably like the idea of getting with someone older. Of course.
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
That's a very, very, very good point that the eroticism in that mixed age dynamic doesn't really come through in movies like this very often. I will say one of the things that's interesting about these films, and you point this out in your piece, all the leads... are white. Why do you think that is?
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
industry that we know so well I mean I think that's obviously a part of it but also something else that I have been thinking about is like in my experience black women have less age anxiety than white women do also like a lot of black actresses like especially Gen X I think they're all in their like mid to late 50s and they just stop playing like 35 year olds yeah just yeah like Taraji P. Henson is in her mid 50s she just stopped playing 35 year olds like two years ago absolutely this is so interesting and you're so right
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
The sort of like I feel so insecure because I'm so old thing. That's just not something that comes up in my life or in.
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
Does that come up a lot? Sorry, asking you resident white woman.
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
Yeah. With another age gap romance starring Nicole Kidman, Baby Girl, coming out this December, there is an opportunity for something a little different in the Hot Mom rom-com or Hot Mom series. Whatever. Hot mom film canon, I suppose. You saw Baby Girl. Do you feel like it is going to give us a little something different? Absolutely.
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
It doesn't seem like a rom-com from the beginning.
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
Well, it also seems like it's going to play with power.
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The hot mom rom-com phenomenon
I think that there's an assumption sometimes in these films that because women's power traditionally and perhaps societally is expected to be derived from fertility and youth and beauty, that when you age... Those things in the conventional sense diminish. And so then your power diminishes.
It's Been a Minute
So you got dumped... should you post your breakup deets online?
That is actually really smart. I mean, well, the last time I went through a really bad breakup, it was 2013. There was no Instagram stories, I don't think, at that time. And so what I did was send out an email explaining what happened. I mean, I did choose the breakup and I explained why I chose the breakup. And I included a...
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So you got dumped... should you post your breakup deets online?
I think a gif of Angela Bassett walking away from that car on fire and waiting to exhale. That's beautiful. And everyone got the message. Everyone got the message. And then two weeks later after that, I threw myself a party.
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So you got dumped... should you post your breakup deets online?
The next time I see a good old-fashioned story time about someone's breakup, I have a lot of ways to think about why they're doing that. So thank you both so much.
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So you got dumped... should you post your breakup deets online?
Thanks for having us, Brittany. Thanks again to Molly McPherson, crisis PR expert, and Rebecca Jennings, senior correspondent at Fox. Also, to all you listening, we want to hear from you. Would you post your breakup deets? What do you think? Sound off in the comments, respond to our Spotify poll, or send us an email at ibam at npr.org. That's I-B-A-M at npr.org.
It's Been a Minute
So you got dumped... should you post your breakup deets online?
This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Liam McBain. Barton Girdwood. This episode was edited by Jasmine Romero. Engineering support came from Kweisi Lee. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
So you got dumped... should you post your breakup deets online?
This week, a lot of us have seen how explosive breakup stories have been on social media. From Risa T says, who the F did I marry?
It's Been a Minute
So you got dumped... should you post your breakup deets online?
Hi and welcome. We all know why you're here. You're here for part of the new series that I'm calling Who the F? Did I marry?
It's Been a Minute
So you got dumped... should you post your breakup deets online?
To Spritely, a.k.a. Texas Breakup Girl, and her TikTok breakup hit.
It's Been a Minute
So you got dumped... should you post your breakup deets online?
But we want to know, is it okay to post breakup details online? We asked people on the street to hear what they had to say.
It's Been a Minute
So you got dumped... should you post your breakup deets online?
Clearly, breakup posting is a contentious subject. So I am thrilled to welcome Molly McPherson, crisis PR expert, and Rebecca Jennings, senior correspondent at Vox. Excited to be here to talk about this topic. Thank you so much for having us. We're going to get into what people actually get out of posting their breakup deets online.
It's Been a Minute
So you got dumped... should you post your breakup deets online?
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. Let's say you've been dating someone for a while. You think things are going well. You go on a trip together and And their ex is at the same resort by coincidence. You gotta be kidding me. Your partner and their ex run off together.
It's Been a Minute
So you got dumped... should you post your breakup deets online?
And we ask, what's the line between a juicy story and an invasion of privacy?
It's Been a Minute
So you got dumped... should you post your breakup deets online?
Yeah. Being the main character, that's not something I would necessarily choose for myself. No. Not at this point in my life. I don't need to stress. What do you think, Molly? Is it ever okay to post breakup details online?
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So you got dumped... should you post your breakup deets online?
Rebecca, you said something interesting. You said that everyone has the right to post online, but you think it's bad etiquette. Do you have like a theory of posters etiquette? And why does this posting about breakups so openly? Why does this go against it?
It's Been a Minute
So you got dumped... should you post your breakup deets online?
If I'm following, I think you're referencing the story of West Elm Caleb. Yep. It's this dating story that went viral a couple years ago about a serial ghoster named Caleb who worked at, you guessed it, West Elm.
It's Been a Minute
So you got dumped... should you post your breakup deets online?
You're heartbroken. Sad, right? Do you post a story about this? Maybe a TikTok or Instagram? I don't know. Do you share the details online? What would you do?
It's Been a Minute
So you got dumped... should you post your breakup deets online?
Molly, I see you nodding vigorously.
It's Been a Minute
So you got dumped... should you post your breakup deets online?
Okay, so we've been talking about like everyday normal people using social media to talk about breakups, but I'm curious how celebrity breakups have fed into this trend. Let's talk about a recent example. There's been a lot of chatter about this Zach Bryan and Brianna Chicken Fry breakup.
It's Been a Minute
So you got dumped... should you post your breakup deets online?
So country music star Zach Bryan recently went viral for posting his own breakup story with podcaster and internet personality Brianna LaPaglia, better known under her internet nickname Brianna. as Brianna Chicken Fry.
It's Been a Minute
So you got dumped... should you post your breakup deets online?
Basically, Zach said publicly that they were broken up and Brianna says that he posted about the breakup before she could even tell her friends and family, which left her feeling blindsided. Allegedly, he tried to get her to sign an NDA to not talk about the breakup. And instead, she went around talking to everybody about what happened. And all of this has played out very publicly.
It's Been a Minute
So you got dumped... should you post your breakup deets online?
I think we're culturally very used to tabloids and celebrity gossip. And it feels like the breakup posting trend has kind of elevated everyday people's breakups into the same space as celebrity breakups. And some people have even capitalized on the fame that these breakup stories bring. Like, for instance, the girl who recently wrote a song about her Texas breakup.
It's Been a Minute
So you got dumped... should you post your breakup deets online?
Coming up, when is breakup posting fun and harmless and when does it tip into maliciousness? Stay with us. Touching back on West Elm Caleb, a bunch of people on the internet tracked him down and doxed him and got him fired from his job at West Elm. I wonder, how do you differentiate between harmless storytime gossip and then like a real invasion of privacy?
It's Been a Minute
So you got dumped... should you post your breakup deets online?
So true. I mean, I guess there's no way to like measure the punishment to the crime when the internet is involved. So we talked about some possibly like healing and helpful ways that posting online can help someone process a breakup, as you mentioned, kind of like leaning into vulnerability.
It's Been a Minute
So you got dumped... should you post your breakup deets online?
But I also feel like I've seen examples before of this kind of posting serving as a warning for other people who might be experiencing extremely negative or even abusive aspects of a romantic relationship.
It's Been a Minute
So you got dumped... should you post your breakup deets online?
Plus one on the divorced ladies of TikTok, like really being there for each other. And I also have seen other women comment on people's posts being like, you know what? I'm glad you shared about your journey because you made me realize that my husband was just like a terrible guy. And I got the strength to leave because you're doing it. I can do it.
It's Been a Minute
So you got dumped... should you post your breakup deets online?
That is like one of the most positive things that I've seen is actually people like just really rooting for each other, getting away from toxic relationships and getting out of bad marriages.
It's Been a Minute
So you got dumped... should you post your breakup deets online?
Exactly. You know, all this said, I would love to hear what each of you think is the best way to go about talking about breakups on socials.
It's Been a Minute
So you got dumped... should you post your breakup deets online?
Did you hear that? It's the sound of cuffing season. The time of year where the weather cools down and folks look for a warm body to cuddle up with. But we're getting into some of the less warm and fuzzy aspects of dating. For the next couple of weeks on It's Been a Minute, we're kicking off cuffing season with some of the big questions and big debates about dating.
It's Been a Minute
So you got dumped... should you post your breakup deets online?
They say don't write from the bruise. That's what they say.
It's Been a Minute
Kill your daddies? TV's obsession with patricide
All right, y'all. I promised that I had a big announcement and I'm delivering on it. This is my New Year's gift to you. Starting today, I'm bringing you It's Been a Minute three times a week. That's right. Every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, you'll have new episodes of It's Been a Minute right here in your feed. Starting right now. Hello, hello.
It's Been a Minute
Kill your daddies? TV's obsession with patricide
I appreciate so much you both coming on today. Thank you. Thanks for having us. Thank you. Thanks again to TV critics Roxanna Haddadi and Ingu Kang. You can find Ingu's work in The New Yorker and Roxanna's at Vulture.com. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Barton Girdwood, Alexis Williams, Corey Antonio-Rose. This episode was edited by Jasmine Romero.
It's Been a Minute
Kill your daddies? TV's obsession with patricide
Engineering support came from Becky Brown. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
Kill your daddies? TV's obsession with patricide
And one of the main characters, my girl Yasmin, oh my gosh, she is pretty, she is charming, but she's not the best at her job. But we still love her, okay? In one episode, after an argument on a yacht with her super rich father, he dies under mysterious circumstances. And I wouldn't say she's sad about it. That would be impossible because I killed him. It is brutal out here for the dads.
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Kill your daddies? TV's obsession with patricide
And then there's the bear on FX. This season, Carmi finally stands up to his old boss and mentor, Chef David Fields.
It's Been a Minute
Kill your daddies? TV's obsession with patricide
And of course, there is the corporate daddy of all corporate daddies, Logan Roy, the billionaire mogul from HBO's Succession, who had to choose which one of his kids would take over the family's media empire. The whole show is literally built on the premise that dad has got to go.
It's Been a Minute
Kill your daddies? TV's obsession with patricide
All of these shows are giving Oedipus on steroids. In order for the children characters to progress to the next stage of their destiny, they had to kill or cut down the father figures in their lives. And across even more shows, everyone from biological fathers to metaphorical fathers are getting the chop.
It's Been a Minute
Kill your daddies? TV's obsession with patricide
Today, Roxanna, Ingo, and I are talking about what historians see as one of the oldest and most taboo crimes across history, patricide, and what this TV trend says about how we think about our own real-life patriarchs. Patricide is an age-old crime. So I wonder, why are patricide narratives still so compelling today?
It's Been a Minute
Kill your daddies? TV's obsession with patricide
I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. So excited to have y'all on today. This is like a dream TV conversation. It really and truly is. So I'm super hyped. Woo! I have assembled the dream team, y'all. I've got Roxanna Haddadi.
It's Been a Minute
Kill your daddies? TV's obsession with patricide
I'm glad you brought up our changing thoughts about how we view family. I mean, because at the same time that many people are considering or going no contact with their parents, specifically their fathers, or many people are litigating their childhoods and wondering like, was that okay? Am I okay? We're seeing people work these thoughts out on screen as well, but...
It's Been a Minute
Kill your daddies? TV's obsession with patricide
Additionally, another thing that's happening in real life is that the role of the father has changed considerably over the past 70 years. I think that might even be informing... why some people are thinking so critically right now about how they really feel about fathers or their fathers. I mean, today, American fathers are much more involved in caregiving than previous generations.
It's Been a Minute
Kill your daddies? TV's obsession with patricide
And fewer fathers are primary breadwinners or solely the disciplinarians of their family. But still, the bad dad, the kind of father who's absent, neglectful, unreliable, or even abusive, remains a constant in our culture. We still, if you think about it, even, you know, looking further back at TV, we are obsessed with these like terrible fathers, like a Don Draper.
It's Been a Minute
Kill your daddies? TV's obsession with patricide
Whether we are transfixed by these characters, like Eric Tao on Industry, who is like the worst mentor, like boss, father figure you can imagine.
It's Been a Minute
Kill your daddies? TV's obsession with patricide
Did I tell you that you could do that? ! Or a guy like Tony Soprano who is neglectful and also a mob boss. Before we end, is there anything you'd like to discuss? How about the fact that I hate my son? Whether these guys are the heroes or the villains of the story, why are we still so obsessed with awful father figures in the TV we watch?
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Kill your daddies? TV's obsession with patricide
I know it's not lost on me that these shows are happening in the context of intense wage stagnation. And in a time where the younger generation of Americans seems to be sincerely asking if the current power holders have to literally die before the younger generations can build wealth and gain power. How do you think these shows are speaking to that anxiety?
It's Been a Minute
Kill your daddies? TV's obsession with patricide
Roxanna, I'd love to hear from you first on this.
It's Been a Minute
Kill your daddies? TV's obsession with patricide
She's a TV critic for Vulture Magazine and the New Yorker's Ingu Kang. And we're here to talk about daddy issues. This is the Olympics of patricide. Ha ha ha ha. You thought Oedipus? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. 2024 TV is going to do you one better. Because here's the thing.
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Kill your daddies? TV's obsession with patricide
Well, keeping it global, I mean, to ask even a bigger question, right? It's already a big question. Like, am I going to end up just like my dad or am I going to end up just like my mom? But a bigger question than that is like, can we really kill the patriarchy? I mean, you know, these characters, they're cutting off or trying to cut off
It's Been a Minute
Kill your daddies? TV's obsession with patricide
toxicity from their lives through killing their father figures. These characters often end up adopting habits and repeating behaviors that they learn from their father figures. Explosive anger, lying, backstabbing, emotional and verbal abuse, insider trading, or doing dirty business deals. I mean, you know, they get it from their dad, you know?
It's Been a Minute
Kill your daddies? TV's obsession with patricide
Exploiting women, literally. Even if the character who is committing this patricide is a woman, she's still going to take on that same mantle from the daddy figure. It feels to me like these shows are asking an even bigger question, not can any of us really change? Can we really change? But like, can the patriarchy actually die or does it just become a different version of itself?
It's Been a Minute
Kill your daddies? TV's obsession with patricide
All right, I'm going to take a quick break, but we have so much more to dig into, so stick around. I'll be right back. Can the patriarchy actually die, or does it just become a different version of itself?
It's Been a Minute
Kill your daddies? TV's obsession with patricide
When you look at the lists of the best TV shows of the past couple of years, there's a trend that nobody is talking about. A bunch of these shows are offing their patriarchs like the dads are dying. And I will warn you, there are some spoilers ahead. Let's look over at HBO's hit show industry. Its third season was huge this year. People couldn't stop talking about it.
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Kill your daddies? TV's obsession with patricide
Oh, yeah. Based off of the graphic novel. Sure.
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Kill your daddies? TV's obsession with patricide
Love it. Right. One of the most iconic scenes from Game of Thrones where Tyrion Lannister, after a lifetime of being bullied by his father, finally kills him.
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Kill your daddies? TV's obsession with patricide
Hmm. Hmm. Like it's, it's like this, it's like a, perhaps a satisfying little fantasy, but the actual questions and ideas that we're, that we want to engage with, or maybe that we feel that we need to engage with on a deep level, they're so indigestible.
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Kill your daddies? TV's obsession with patricide
She goes from being the daughter of, you know, the CEO to being the wife of the CEO. Yeah. Yeah. And still continuing to aid and abet all of the things that, you know, whichever evil man is doing. Well, oh my gosh. Roxanna, Ingu, thank you so much for coming on today and talking with me about, I guess, one of the most taboo things that you could show on television.
It's Been a Minute
Men have body dysmorphia too. That's why some use this drug.
I have one last question. What will it take for us to build a healthier culture around body image for young boys and men more broadly?
It's Been a Minute
Men have body dysmorphia too. That's why some use this drug.
It's like decoupling those skills that they want to gain or the experiences that they want to have from Anything having to do with the body.
It's Been a Minute
Men have body dysmorphia too. That's why some use this drug.
Roberto, thank you so much. This was such a great conversation. I learned so much. This was wonderful. Thank you. Thank you. That was clinical psychologist and lecturer in psychology at Harvard Medical School, Dr. Roberto Olivardia. And I'm going to put on my influencer hat for a second and ask you to please subscribe to this show on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you're listening.
It's Been a Minute
Men have body dysmorphia too. That's why some use this drug.
That's Dr. Roberto Olivardio. He's a clinical psychologist and lecturer in psychology at Harvard Medical School.
It's Been a Minute
Men have body dysmorphia too. That's why some use this drug.
Click follow so you know the latest in culture while it's still hot. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Corey Bridges. This episode was edited by Nina Potok. Our supervising producer is Barton Girdwood. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right, that's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce.
It's Been a Minute
Men have body dysmorphia too. That's why some use this drug.
He's worked with a lot of people using steroids in non-medically prescribed ways in order to achieve a certain muscular aesthetic. An aesthetic you'd maybe connect with WWE stars or professional athletes trying to get a leg up on the competition. But according to Roberto, we're seeing a whole new motivation for using steroids.
It's Been a Minute
Men have body dysmorphia too. That's why some use this drug.
Negative body image, which can oftentimes lead to body dysmorphia. It's something we're very familiar with when it comes to girls and women, but something that's flown a little under the radar when it comes to boys and men. For many men, body dysmorphia stems from feelings of not having big enough muscles.
It's Been a Minute
Men have body dysmorphia too. That's why some use this drug.
Something known more specifically as muscle dysmorphia, which Roberto has pioneered research on. Here's my chat with him to better understand the uptick in steroid use among boys and men and the culture that's contributing to this rise in muscle dysmorphia. So first off, tell me a little more about the people struggling with muscle dysmorphia.
It's Been a Minute
Men have body dysmorphia too. That's why some use this drug.
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident.
It's Been a Minute
Men have body dysmorphia too. That's why some use this drug.
Gosh, I have never dealt with an eating disorder, but I have had the American teenage girl experience. And so I have seen plenty up close and personal throughout the span of my life. And so much of what you're describing is the kinds of behavior that's really common with eating disorders like anorexia or bulimia. Yeah.
It's Been a Minute
Men have body dysmorphia too. That's why some use this drug.
I see. I see. And how does social media play into all of this? I mean, you know, just to come clean myself, I'm always looking at it. And I feel like one of the great pillars that holds it up is people sharing their quote unquote fitness journeys, right? That is like some of the lifeblood of social media.
It's Been a Minute
Men have body dysmorphia too. That's why some use this drug.
And I wonder, where is the line between wanting to maybe be jacked or whatever or having goals for your appearance versus muscle dysmorphia? Where is that?
It's Been a Minute
Men have body dysmorphia too. That's why some use this drug.
And he's like getting up at 315 and like working out like three times a day. Exactly.
It's Been a Minute
Men have body dysmorphia too. That's why some use this drug.
Do you get a sense from your research that like muscle in particular has moments where it's more popular than not? Because, I mean, you've been looking into this for like at this point decades. How have you seen that play out in your work?
It's Been a Minute
Men have body dysmorphia too. That's why some use this drug.
I know that body modifiers like Ozempic and other semaglutides are getting all of the attention right now, but I want to shine a light on another supplement that people are obsessing over. Steroids.
It's Been a Minute
Men have body dysmorphia too. That's why some use this drug.
Wow. That is so interesting. I mean, there seems to be some correlation there between this change in male body ideals that we might see in advertising and then also how men wanted to look in real life.
It's Been a Minute
Men have body dysmorphia too. That's why some use this drug.
Okay. All right. They wanted to look like Brad Pitt in that movie.
It's Been a Minute
Men have body dysmorphia too. That's why some use this drug.
It sounds like even if the body ideals change, they're still interested in the steroid use. They just maybe don't want to give the impression that they are using steroids.
It's Been a Minute
Men have body dysmorphia too. That's why some use this drug.
Politely roided. That's a good term.
It's Been a Minute
Men have body dysmorphia too. That's why some use this drug.
Just like people speculate over whether Ozempic is to blame for their favorite celebrity getting smaller, they're also wondering whether steroids are making their favorite social media influencers bigger.
It's Been a Minute
Men have body dysmorphia too. That's why some use this drug.
Coming back to our current moment. You know, body ideals and beauty standards sometimes have a habit of like following trends, kind of like fashion. I wonder, why do men feel this pressure to have this super jacked appearance right now? Like, what was the tipping point for that?
It's Been a Minute
Men have body dysmorphia too. That's why some use this drug.
It's like an expansiveness as opposed to a contraction, which it sounds like many men perhaps experienced the expansion of women's rights and roles as a diminishment of their own. Exactly.
It's Been a Minute
Men have body dysmorphia too. That's why some use this drug.
You have said so much with all of this. And I feel like we can't talk about male body ideals without talking about Marvel superheroes. I feel like the kinds of almost like physique unveilings that Marvel films as like a brand does for their stars.
It's Been a Minute
Men have body dysmorphia too. That's why some use this drug.
I think about the transformation of the actor Kamil Nanjiani when he was acting in the Eternals Marvel film, like the before and after that he shared on Instagram. I remember it broke social media. I remember that.
It's Been a Minute
Men have body dysmorphia too. That's why some use this drug.
I think more people probably have familiarity with his like physical transformation than even the film itself. No disrespect. I love the director.
It's Been a Minute
Intellectuals vs. The Internet
Make education great again. It seemed like a perfect storm of cultural threads converging. Alt-right misogyny, the anti-woke crowd, calls for disinvestment in the humanities. And to me, it all pointed toward a larger threat, anti-intellectualism. That is, hostility and mistrust towards academics, experts, and education. And I'm not the only one seeing this.
It's Been a Minute
Intellectuals vs. The Internet
Researcher Matt Mata found that one in three Americans holds anti-intellectual views. But who benefits? I sat down with Dr. Allie Lukes. Just Allie is fine. And Dr. Jason Stanley, professor of philosophy at Yale.
It's Been a Minute
Intellectuals vs. The Internet
To dig deeper into anti-intellectualism and what it means for the future of our democracy. To jump right in, Ali, I want to start with you. Despite a lot of the negative attention that came your way, you've really taken this and kind of run with it. I see you connect something new happening in culture back to your dissertation. All the time.
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Intellectuals vs. The Internet
You know, I think about how Cardi B recently posted about how she smelled, kind of touting her lack of smell in some ways as an asset. And you tied it back to your research. You were like, this is kind of what I'm talking about in my research. It's really cool to see you show people how to think a bit more critically about smell, despite everything else that happened.
It's Been a Minute
Intellectuals vs. The Internet
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. Our show today starts with a story of viral outrage. In November, an academic named Allie Lukes posted a photo of herself on X, holding her thesis. After years of work, she was celebrating finishing her PhD at Cambridge University.
It's Been a Minute
Intellectuals vs. The Internet
So Jason, I heard you're not online like that anymore. Yeah. But you did read about what happened with Ali's thesis and the reaction to it. What was your initial reaction?
It's Been a Minute
Intellectuals vs. The Internet
It's interesting. We actually had... a disgust scholar on this show, Josh Rotman. And he talked with us about disgust. We were actually talking about it in terms of dating and getting the ick, like that immediate feeling of disgust that makes you just not want to date someone anymore and not find them attractive.
It's Been a Minute
Intellectuals vs. The Internet
And to your point, one of the things that I discovered in talking with him is that there are so many other little assumptions that kind of undergird that ick, there are so many other societal expectations and norms that form disgust.
It's Been a Minute
Intellectuals vs. The Internet
Going back to the post, I want to get deeper into some of the threads that we saw in this viral attack. Some of these posts were engaging in anti-intellectualism. Jason, can you tell us how you see it fitting in here?
It's Been a Minute
Intellectuals vs. The Internet
Quality of an access to formal education in America is often determined by how much money you have. From public, pre-K to Ivy League programs, obviously formal schooling isn't the only way to learn valuable information. But as a result, being knowledgeable is often associated with being a member of the elite.
It's Been a Minute
Intellectuals vs. The Internet
I wonder, what does the perceived connection between elite status and intellectualism have to do with this current wave of anti-intellectualism?
It's Been a Minute
Intellectuals vs. The Internet
Coming up, there's been so much disinvestment in the humanities. Do they still matter?
It's Been a Minute
Intellectuals vs. The Internet
Stay with us. I want to talk about the humanities of it all. Allie, I know that you're in the UK, but we're all in each other's business together on X and on social media. But in the US, many universities have cut humanities majors and faculty. And only about 12% of students receive humanities degrees.
It's Been a Minute
Intellectuals vs. The Internet
I feel like there's been so much focus on STEM that the humanities have become almost viewed as culturally worthless to a larger degree. What is the value of the humanities?
It's Been a Minute
Intellectuals vs. The Internet
Oh, that's a throwback. They definitely were debating a lot of the same exact things that we're talking about right now.
It's Been a Minute
Intellectuals vs. The Internet
Ali thought she'd get a couple congrats comments and go on with her life. That's not what happened.
It's Been a Minute
Intellectuals vs. The Internet
To that point, I think there's also a cultural premium on things like going to space or developing AI or something like that. And in some of the backlash, I would say that I saw... a lack of interest in learning about human beings, like learning about ourselves. Some people thought there was no application for your thesis, Allie, but you've been proving them wrong every day.
It's Been a Minute
Intellectuals vs. The Internet
And I think that's one of the things that has been most stunning to me in thinking about all of this is that like a lack of interest, not to be literal about it, but like a lack of interest in the humanities. does kind of demonstrate a lack of interest, literally, in what it means to be human, the people around you, and also in yourself.
It's Been a Minute
Intellectuals vs. The Internet
I got one last question for you, Allie. Since this whole thing has happened, you have become the smell lady on X, aka Twitter, with people tagging you about the conscious and unconscious ways we interact with smell all the time. Is there anything that stuck with you from all this, from this entire experience?
It's Been a Minute
Intellectuals vs. The Internet
That was Dr. Ali Lukes, professor at Cambridge, and Dr. Jason Stanley, professor at Yale. And one more thing before I go, we're working on a series about loneliness and we want to hear from you. What does loneliness look like for you? How did you come to realize it was a problem? And have you taken any steps to foster more connection in your life?
It's Been a Minute
Intellectuals vs. The Internet
If you're 18 or older, send us a voice memo to IBAM at NPR.org to tell us more. We're especially interested in stories from men and moms, but we'd love to hear from everyone and anyone else too. That's I-B-A-M at NPR.org. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Liam McBain. Barton Girdwood. This episode was edited by Jasmine Romero. Engineering support came from Jimmy Keeley.
It's Been a Minute
Intellectuals vs. The Internet
Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
Intellectuals vs. The Internet
To make it clear, just the title alone of her thesis, which you could see in the picture she posted, was enough to make it go super viral. It now has over 126 million views. I'm sorry to say I was on X the day that this went viral. And let me tell you, that comment section was rough. Here's a taste of it. 10 years of childbearing youth that she will never regain.
It's Been a Minute
Brittany needs a couch. Should she buy now, pay later?
That is NPR Life Kit's Andy Tegel. And I called her up to walk me through this payment plan because I was very familiar with layaway, where a store holds a large purchase for you as you pay it off in installments. But getting the product up front and paying for it over time, that was new to me. But according to Andy, it's pretty popular and for good reason.
It's Been a Minute
Brittany needs a couch. Should she buy now, pay later?
Yeah. I mean, now that you mention it, I mean, I think about, I think it was an article from New York Magazine that came out recently talking to a lot of like young college students and seeing how it's such a short span of time. I mean, these tools have been available for a couple of years to be used like ChatGPT in the way that students seem to be using them now for school.
It's Been a Minute
Brittany needs a couch. Should she buy now, pay later?
And the dependence on them is pretty immediate. There are so many young people that feel like they can't do school without these AI tools. It seems that if the goal were to develop user dependence on a tool, then that has been accomplished.
It's Been a Minute
Brittany needs a couch. Should she buy now, pay later?
Figure out how to give someone directions or read a map. Yeah. Or call a restaurant and order your meal. Yeah.
It's Been a Minute
Brittany needs a couch. Should she buy now, pay later?
Malcolm, you know, you've really given me a lot to think about today.
It's Been a Minute
Brittany needs a couch. Should she buy now, pay later?
I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for joining us again. I really, really, really enjoyed this conversation.
It's Been a Minute
Brittany needs a couch. Should she buy now, pay later?
That was NPR LifeKids Andy Tegel and author Malcolm Harris. His newest book, What's Left? Three Paths Through the Planetary Crisis, is out now. And I'm going to put on my influencer hat for a second and ask you to please subscribe to this show on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you're listening. Click follow so you know the latest in culture while it's still hot.
It's Been a Minute
Brittany needs a couch. Should she buy now, pay later?
This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Alexis Williams. This episode was edited by Nina Potok. Our supervising producer is Barton Girdwood. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sangweni. All right, that's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
Brittany needs a couch. Should she buy now, pay later?
Buy now, pay later is also user-friendly. It's integrated into your online shopping experience at the point of sale or or on the product page itself. You can even download the Klarna or Affirm app to shop at your favorite stores all at once and track your purchases. All kinds of people use Buy Now, Pay Later.
It's Been a Minute
Brittany needs a couch. Should she buy now, pay later?
But with such a low barrier to entry and easy access, you can imagine young people really flock to these loans.
It's Been a Minute
Brittany needs a couch. Should she buy now, pay later?
But like with most things, there are some downsides.
It's Been a Minute
Brittany needs a couch. Should she buy now, pay later?
That floored me. In our chat, Andy compared it to the grocery store. You know, that area right before in front of the cashier where there are snacks, gum, and soda for you to buy last minute. If you have an app that offers buy now, pay later loans, the app curates that little section just for you. But it doesn't stop there.
It's Been a Minute
Brittany needs a couch. Should she buy now, pay later?
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. I'm going to give you a little behind the scenes moment here and level with you all. I am in dire need of a new couch. It's done me well for years, but now it's just a miserable experience to sit on.
It's Been a Minute
Brittany needs a couch. Should she buy now, pay later?
In my mind, I'm like, it looks like a bank. It quacks like a bank. And it kind of sounds like it hits all of the same sensory cues as shopping or buying anything with any other card. And since it is so similar, if a young person uses Buy Now, Pay Later to get on their feet, wouldn't they eventually just transition over to a credit card anyway?
It's Been a Minute
Brittany needs a couch. Should she buy now, pay later?
And that ease is helped by a market rapidly changing to meet demand. Places like Amazon, Walmart, and Target offer buy now, pay later options. Costco just announced its own buy now, pay later program. And according to a LendingTree survey... 25% of buy now, pay later users use the loans for everyday purchases like groceries.
It's Been a Minute
Brittany needs a couch. Should she buy now, pay later?
But what stopped me in my tracks was the news that Klarna partnered with DoorDash so customers could eat now, pay later. It made me skeptical if making this type of payment the norm is wise. Because even though Buy Now Pay Later is an easier form of credit to use, it doesn't necessarily have the same protections as a traditional credit card. But maybe that's the point.
It's Been a Minute
Brittany needs a couch. Should she buy now, pay later?
That is author Malcolm Harris. We had him on the show a while back to talk about his book, Palo Alto, a comprehensive history of Silicon Valley. I reached out to him after hearing that Klarna partnered with DoorDash. I wondered about the risks of a necessity like food entering the buy-now-pay-later universe. But according to Malcolm, that's actually not what this is about.
It's Been a Minute
Brittany needs a couch. Should she buy now, pay later?
That's when it dawned on me. Klarna and Affirm are financial tech companies.
It's Been a Minute
Brittany needs a couch. Should she buy now, pay later?
And after hearing the news Klarna doubled its losses in the first quarter, it made me wonder, are we seeing the fallout from the infamous Millennial Lifestyle Subsidy? This is Money Troubles. And for the past few weeks, we've been looking into the ways everyday people are trying to make ends meet and what it says about how our culture views labor, basic needs, or even our favorite pastimes.
It's Been a Minute
Brittany needs a couch. Should she buy now, pay later?
In this final episode, author Malcolm Harris joins me to get into how cheap credit may be just another lifestyle subsidy for a new generation. And when the bill comes due, who pays? I'm wondering, how did the millennial lifestyle subsidy that we're talking about and its fallout bring us to this buy now, pay later for everything moment?
It's Been a Minute
Brittany needs a couch. Should she buy now, pay later?
And I've been slacking on getting a new one because every time I get to that checkout page online, typing in my credit card number for a $4,000 couch just doesn't feel right. But on every checkout page, I kept coming across an alternative payment option.
It's Been a Minute
Brittany needs a couch. Should she buy now, pay later?
I think about that and I also think about the fact, though, that if you did get behind on payments or you didn't pay for something, it wasn't going to be reported to a credit bureau. But as of the past few months, Equifax, Experian and TransUnion are trying to change this. So it kind of sounds like...
It's Been a Minute
Brittany needs a couch. Should she buy now, pay later?
Consumers are approaching a situation with buy now, pay later, where if you get behind on a firm or Klarna or whatever credit payments, you could potentially end up with bad credit. So you don't have any of the protections, but also you end up being responsible for any dings against your account with Klarna or a firm or whatever. It seems kind of freaky.
It's Been a Minute
Brittany needs a couch. Should she buy now, pay later?
Who pays when the lifestyle is no longer subsidized?
It's Been a Minute
Brittany needs a couch. Should she buy now, pay later?
Right under credit card, Apple Pay, PayPal was the option to get my couch now and break my payment down into installments using Klarna, Affirm, or Afterpay. This was new to me, but I would come to find out that these companies were offering buy now, pay later loans.
It's Been a Minute
Brittany needs a couch. Should she buy now, pay later?
Oh my gosh. Okay. My brain already was broken. I think the first time that I understood that credit scores like didn't exist for my parents. You mentioned in your pre-interview that this regulatory disruption is like a common part of tech and Silicon Valley companies. Are there other examples of this?
It's Been a Minute
Brittany needs a couch. Should she buy now, pay later?
Well, one last thing. In your pre-interview with our producer, Alexis, and this surprised me, you mentioned that these lifestyle subsidies – have been happening for generations. And I had to say that stood out to me because I think when people talk about the millennial lifestyle subsidy, they're talking specifically about my generation. They're talking about Uber. They're talking about Airbnb.
It's Been a Minute
Brittany needs a couch. Should she buy now, pay later?
They're talking about DoorDash, all of these companies that we just discussed. But you say that this is somewhat of a repeating strategy just in a different costume or something like that. But you also said the most important question is when the bill comes, who's Who pays?
It's Been a Minute
Brittany needs a couch. Should she buy now, pay later?
Can you break down this idea, this concept that there's always some type of lifestyle subsidy that hits different generations in different ways?
It's Been a Minute
Why tech bros worship psychedelics (and think you should too)
There's also a lot of power from Silicon Valley behind legalization pushes and new companies that aim to market psychedelics to the public. Maxime, you've been critical of this. You basically said that CEOs of tech companies aren't just trying to insinuate themselves into our lives through tech, but to also guide our spiritual lives through psychedelics. Can you say more about that?
It's Been a Minute
Why tech bros worship psychedelics (and think you should too)
Right, not him personally, but his venture firm that he runs with his brothers. I'll read the description from the Praxis Nation website really quick. Praxis is, quote, A home for the brave who strive for virtue and wisdom. Our purpose is to restore Western civilization and pursue our ultimate destiny of life among the stars.
It's Been a Minute
Why tech bros worship psychedelics (and think you should too)
The Praxian way of life is driven by vital energy that seeks transcendence through heroic action and contemplation.
It's Been a Minute
Why tech bros worship psychedelics (and think you should too)
You know, ultimately, given all that power behind bringing psychedelics to the public, what does the future of psychedelics look like, not just for tech bros and CEOs, but for people who do want to bring them into their own spiritual practices?
It's Been a Minute
Why tech bros worship psychedelics (and think you should too)
The trips people have on these substances are often described in spiritual terms. And some of these psychedelics have a history of spiritual practice spanning millennia. But there's a new group that's really taking on the psychedelic mantle. Tech bros and CEOs. OpenAI's Sam Altman.
It's Been a Minute
Why tech bros worship psychedelics (and think you should too)
Gosh, you both have given me so much to think about today. I really appreciate this conversation so much. Thank you both.
It's Been a Minute
Why tech bros worship psychedelics (and think you should too)
Thanks for having me. That was Maxime Twarundun, PhD candidate at the University of Tokyo, and Emma Goldberg, business reporter at the New York Times. And wow, I am so grateful you made it this far. Yes, you listening right now. It must mean you really like the show, which is awesome because it turns out I really love making it for you. And I'm going to let you in on a little secret.
It's Been a Minute
Why tech bros worship psychedelics (and think you should too)
You can become an even bigger fan of the show by signing up for It's Been a Minute Plus. It supports this show and all of public media. Plus, you get to listen to every episode of the show sponsor-free. There's a link in the description of this episode, or you can go to plus.npr.org slash itsbeenaminute to sign up. And seriously, thanks so much for hanging out with me.
It's Been a Minute
Why tech bros worship psychedelics (and think you should too)
This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Liam McBain. This episode was edited by Nina Potok. Engineering support came from Robert Rodriguez. Our supervising producer is Barton Girdwood. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
Why tech bros worship psychedelics (and think you should too)
And Google co-founder Sergey Brin, to name a few. These substances have different shades of legality throughout the U.S., but some of these tech bros are trying to change that by funding startups that might bring psychedelic therapies to the public. So what does it mean that psychedelics are getting championed and sometimes financially backed by the tech elite?
It's Been a Minute
Why tech bros worship psychedelics (and think you should too)
And how might that affect our culture's relationship to psychedelics as spiritual tools? I'm joined by Maxime Tvarun Dunn, PhD candidate at the University of Tokyo. Happy to be here. And Emma Goldberg, business reporter at The New York Times.
It's Been a Minute
Why tech bros worship psychedelics (and think you should too)
To find out. Okay, so we are here to talk about psychedelics. How do you see them fitting into a spiritual but not religious practice?
It's Been a Minute
Why tech bros worship psychedelics (and think you should too)
A warning, this segment contains mentions of drug use. Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. America is a deeply spiritual nation. Over 70% of us say that we feel spiritual in some way. But at the same time, we're also getting less religious.
It's Been a Minute
Why tech bros worship psychedelics (and think you should too)
Right. A common selling point for ayahuasca, for example, is that it's like 10 years of therapy in one day, that you can get all that processing without all that time. But also, I think more and more psychedelics are being associated with tech bros and CEOs who either do these substances or fund psychedelic startups or both.
It's Been a Minute
Why tech bros worship psychedelics (and think you should too)
And Emma, you just published an article a couple of months ago about a retreat you went to called The Psychedelic CEO. This feels kind of different to me from the 60s and 70s stereotype of a psychedelics user that I feel like, you know, was associated with progressivism and radicals and free love, you know, etc., etc.
It's Been a Minute
Why tech bros worship psychedelics (and think you should too)
How did psychedelics go from that kind of association to being like the favorite drug of tech bros and CEOs? Yeah.
It's Been a Minute
Why tech bros worship psychedelics (and think you should too)
But it's come back around again, it seems.
It's Been a Minute
Why tech bros worship psychedelics (and think you should too)
But something I'm also thinking about is a thing journalist Jane Hu pointed out to us, which is that the center of the psychedelics counterculture and Silicon Valley are are born out of the same place geographically.
It's Been a Minute
Why tech bros worship psychedelics (and think you should too)
That's very fair. That's a very fair point. As we're discussing how some business leaders like to use these psychedelics because whether they're going on trips or they're microdosing, maybe they think that it helps them with work. Their spiritual journeys might be parlayed into maximizing shareholder value. Some companies are even trying to offer them to employees as a mental health benefit.
It's Been a Minute
Why tech bros worship psychedelics (and think you should too)
But I think one of the things that makes me personally somewhat confused is that I have a pretty decent separation between my work and my personal life. I just don't get why doing something that has such a spiritual or personal significance would be introduced into the workplace. Like, I don't know, what's behind the impulse of bringing something
It's Been a Minute
Why tech bros worship psychedelics (and think you should too)
When asked to check a box next to their religious affiliation, 28% of Americans check the box labeled none. The nuns, as they're sometimes called, are now the biggest religious group in the United States. And 22% identify as spiritual but not religious, otherwise known as SBNRs. But for SBNRs, what's replacing organized religion? What do they believe?
It's Been a Minute
Why tech bros worship psychedelics (and think you should too)
that kind of personal or sacred spiritual aspect of your life into your working hours.
It's Been a Minute
Why tech bros worship psychedelics (and think you should too)
And beer taps and all that, yeah. And no unions.
It's Been a Minute
Why tech bros worship psychedelics (and think you should too)
Coming up, who gets the cultural cachet of using psychedelics?
It's Been a Minute
Why tech bros worship psychedelics (and think you should too)
Gosh, you know, some of these psychedelics like ayahuasca and peyote are substances that have historically been used in indigenous spiritual practices. What does it mean that substances like those are getting picked up and popularized by tech bros and CEOs?
It's Been a Minute
Why tech bros worship psychedelics (and think you should too)
And where does that belief show up in all our lives? Well, on our new series called Losing My Religion, we're going to find out. Today, we're getting into psychedelics. That's an umbrella term that includes LSD, magic mushrooms, peyote, and often ketamine and MDMA too, among others. And more people are taking psychedelics now than ever before. Ever heard the phrase spirit journey?
It's Been a Minute
Why tech bros worship psychedelics (and think you should too)
I get the sense that when these guys are doing this, they are optimizing, they're expanding, their minds are getting an edge on the competition.
It's Been a Minute
Why tech bros worship psychedelics (and think you should too)
But when others use some of these substances, you know, and depending on where they might be policed in the United States, or even culturally, I'm not sure that indigenous people engaging in their own practices with these drugs would get the same kind of cachet. I wonder why our psychedelics may be seen as more culturally permissible or even laudable when rich tech bros do them.
It's Been a Minute
Lonely? There's an app for that... but should there be?
You raise a really good point. I'm curious why specifically like the degree is sometimes a marker of difference as far as feeling isolated. I imagine it's because college for many people is like one of the last opportunities where you are kind of specifically placed in an environment with making friends being one of like the major points of being there.
It's Been a Minute
Lonely? There's an app for that... but should there be?
New York Times reporter Brian Chen looked into the studies on this, and he found a consensus of researchers agree. There's a very strong correlation between tech use and loneliness. So tech might be part of the problem, but could it also be the solution?
It's Been a Minute
Lonely? There's an app for that... but should there be?
I got one last question for you both. How do we get out of loneliness?
It's Been a Minute
Lonely? There's an app for that... but should there be?
Like they say, the best time to plant a tree was yesterday. The second best time is right now. This was really great. Sam, Wahini, thank you both so much.
It's Been a Minute
Lonely? There's an app for that... but should there be?
Based on my interactions with AI, maybe not for me personally, but there's a crop of new startups looking for all kinds of ways tech could combat loneliness.
It's Been a Minute
Lonely? There's an app for that... but should there be?
Yeah, this was awesome. Thank you. That was Sam Pressler, who studies community and social connection at the University of Virginia's Karsh Institute of Democracy, and Wahini Vara, veteran tech reporter and author of the upcoming book, Searches, Selfhood in the Digital Age. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Liam McBain. This episode was edited by Jasmine Romero. Nina Potok.
It's Been a Minute
Lonely? There's an app for that... but should there be?
Our supervising producer is Barton Girdwood. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
Lonely? There's an app for that... but should there be?
But are more apps really the answer? To find out, I'm joined by Sam Pressler, who studies community and social connection at the University of Virginia's Karsh Institute of Democracy.
It's Been a Minute
Lonely? There's an app for that... but should there be?
And Wahini Vara, veteran tech reporter and author of the upcoming book, Searches, Selfhood in the Digital Age.
It's Been a Minute
Lonely? There's an app for that... but should there be?
To start, I don't think anyone can say for sure that tech creates loneliness, but we do know that they're linked. What are the ways that tech and loneliness kind of go hand in hand?
It's Been a Minute
Lonely? There's an app for that... but should there be?
Okay, I'm asking chat GPT, can you help me get less lonely? Enter.
It's Been a Minute
Lonely? There's an app for that... but should there be?
You know, at the same time that we're having this discussion about loneliness in tech and all the ways in which one can sometimes help the other to grow, we're seeing some new startups pop up that are trying to use tech to address, you know, this same issue of loneliness. There's this app called Mino. I'm like so interested in this. It's a mentor-like relationship advice app.
It's Been a Minute
Lonely? There's an app for that... but should there be?
for humans powered by AI, okay? There's the SoulCycle founder's new venture called Peoplehood, which does guided group conversations. There's Time Left, which matches strangers for dinner. And of course, Bumble for Friends, which is a separate app from their dating app. What do you make of all these tech solutions to what may be at least partially a tech problem?
It's Been a Minute
Lonely? There's an app for that... but should there be?
The new startup from the SoulCycle founder, right?
It's Been a Minute
Lonely? There's an app for that... but should there be?
Right. A month of peoplehood is $165. I mean, that's nothing to sneeze at.
It's Been a Minute
Lonely? There's an app for that... but should there be?
That's a really, really, really excellent point. I've seen some memes floating around about how if someone proposed the idea of a free public library today, they would get laughed out of the building. It's very troubling to think that access to community might become a paywalled thing or something only available to certain classes of people.
It's Been a Minute
Lonely? There's an app for that... but should there be?
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. Do you relate? Well, you may be lonely, but you're not alone. One third of Americans report feeling lonely at least once a week. And 16% of Americans report feeling lonely all or most of the time.
It's Been a Minute
Lonely? There's an app for that... but should there be?
Yeah. Wahini, you made a really good point in your pre-interview with our producer, Liam. You're so brilliant. What did I say? You said capital is so powerful that while we know there are other ways than investing in tech startups to address issues in our society, there seems to be less money for other kinds of solutions.
It's Been a Minute
Lonely? There's an app for that... but should there be?
When we come back, do these apps help the people who need it most?
It's Been a Minute
Lonely? There's an app for that... but should there be?
So I think to a certain degree, people can... understand the value, or at least they see the utility in getting on dating apps and looking for people to date, right? But also there's so much fatigue from people matching apps like, you know, OkCupid, where admittedly I did find my husband. Congratulations. Success story. But people are tired of them.
It's Been a Minute
Lonely? There's an app for that... but should there be?
Would people even be excited to do the same kind of song and dance to meet friends? Okay, I have a hot take. Okay, I'm ready.
It's Been a Minute
Lonely? There's an app for that... but should there be?
Welcome back to our three-part series, All the Lonely People. We're diving deep into how loneliness shows up in our lives and how our culture shapes it. So we've heard a lot of theories about why we're lonely, but one of the things that kept popping up was technology, how our reliance on our phones and the internet could be pushing us apart.
It's Been a Minute
Lonely? There's an app for that... but should there be?
And that's a problem. I mean, we talked about the app time left matching strangers up to go out to eat dinner together. And that's one of the problems that that app is having, you know, is people meet and then they leave the app to start their own WhatsApp groups. You know, the founder is trying to keep reconnection in the app.
It's Been a Minute
Lonely? There's an app for that... but should there be?
Thinking about another type of digital companionship, you know, aside from Mino, the mentoring relationship advice, AI powered app for humans, there are also a lot of AI companions out there that are being touted as a possible solution to loneliness. As opposed to, you know, these other companies that are more focused on human to human relationships. And I actually, I tested one out.
It's Been a Minute
Lonely? There's an app for that... but should there be?
I tested out having an AI boyfriend for a week on the show, which my ultimate... Thought was like, when you have an actual husband, AI boyfriend is lacking. Like I would really need some really compelling conversation to get me to really start cheating for real. The AI cheating was not doing it for me. But there have been some studies that show that. these companions do reduce loneliness.
It's Been a Minute
Lonely? There's an app for that... but should there be?
And we talked to a great journalist about this a couple of years ago. She'd spoken to people who were widowed or who had illnesses that made difficult for them to be intimate with other people. And the AI companions were helpful. But I wonder, are users missing other benefits of human-to-human interaction?
It's Been a Minute
Lonely? There's an app for that... but should there be?
Yeah, that's the one that I used.
It's Been a Minute
The Oprah to "Make America Healthy Again" Pipeline
this remembering your spirit, New Age spirituality, the secret kind of thing, the same kind of stuff that was also espoused by the people that she's platformed, including Marianne Williamson, John of God. I wonder, why is this combination of individual personal responsibility and New Age spirituality so attractive to so many people? And what are the dangers of this line of thinking?
It's Been a Minute
The Oprah to "Make America Healthy Again" Pipeline
Hmm. That's really, really interesting. And so it's like because. that way of thinking, whether it's the Puritan work ethic or the Calvinism or prosperity gospel or even Catholic guilt. There are so many different ways in which it shows up throughout. Or even like, you know, like I think about the Black American bootstraps mentality or working twice as hard.
It's Been a Minute
The Oprah to "Make America Healthy Again" Pipeline
Like there are so many ways in which that uniquely American perspective, the model minority myth, show up across groups, right, across groups in our country. that it makes sense that that unique combination would cut across every single sector of the American audience. That makes so much sense. You know, I wonder, have we seen another figure like Oprah since her time?
It's Been a Minute
The Oprah to "Make America Healthy Again" Pipeline
The impact of The Oprah Winfrey Show cannot be overstated. It was the place to go to talk about any and every hot topic. Celebrity interviews, relationship woes, family trauma. She had it all. Starting from its debut in 1986, The Oprah Winfrey Show was the number one talk show in the country for 24 consecutive seasons.
It's Been a Minute
The Oprah to "Make America Healthy Again" Pipeline
Kelly, Marsha, this was so much fun. Thank you both so much. My pleasure. Thank you. That was historian and co-host Dr. Kelly Carter-Jackson and professor of Africana Studies, Dr. Marsha Chatelain. And I'm going to put on my influencer hat for a second and ask you to please subscribe to this show on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you're listening.
It's Been a Minute
The Oprah to "Make America Healthy Again" Pipeline
Click follow so you know the latest in culture while it's still hot. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Alexis Williams. This episode was edited by Nina Potok. Our supervising producer is Barton Girdwood. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce.
It's Been a Minute
The Oprah to "Make America Healthy Again" Pipeline
That influence, also called the Oprah effect, made her no stranger to controversy. In fact, in the 90s, she had an episode about mad cow disease. And after learning about the dangers of infected beef, she declared that she was done eating burgers. After that episode aired, Oprah was sued by the cattle industry, who claimed that her program led to an $11 million loss.
It's Been a Minute
The Oprah to "Make America Healthy Again" Pipeline
This is also when Oprah would meet a psychologist by the name of Phil McGraw.
It's Been a Minute
The Oprah to "Make America Healthy Again" Pipeline
That is Dr. Marsha Chatelain, professor of Africana Studies at the University of Pennsylvania. After Dr. Phil helped Oprah through her trial, he eventually joined her show as a sort of no-nonsense self-help expert. And that led to his own Oprah-produced show called Dr. Phil. Heard of it? But that's not the only doctor that was put on by Oprah. Welcome back, Dr. O!
It's Been a Minute
The Oprah to "Make America Healthy Again" Pipeline
Dr. Mehmet Oz, former heart surgeon and newly confirmed head of Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, also made his claim to fame on her show.
It's Been a Minute
The Oprah to "Make America Healthy Again" Pipeline
And while both of these men started out as highly respected in their fields, over time they have left behind their traditional careers for the limelight. And that has come with some pretty bewildering political evolutions. Dr. Phil went from psychologist to talk show host to now joining the Trump administration's ICE raids in Chicago.
It's Been a Minute
The Oprah to "Make America Healthy Again" Pipeline
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. Have you or someone you love been confused by the push to make America healthy again? No. If that's the case, then you, my friend, are in dire need of our new series. The Road to Make America Healthy Again.
It's Been a Minute
The Oprah to "Make America Healthy Again" Pipeline
Yeah? How do you know me? And while Dr. Oz started out as a well-regarded heart surgeon, about half of the recommendations made on his show were found to be unsupported by scientific evidence.
It's Been a Minute
The Oprah to "Make America Healthy Again" Pipeline
Both men have also come out in support of the right-wing Make America Healthy Again, or MAHA, political movement. And while Oprah has distanced herself from Dr. Oz, I think her show has become a time capsule of how we got to this cross-section between entertainment, politics, and health.
It's Been a Minute
The Oprah to "Make America Healthy Again" Pipeline
So today, Kelly and Marsha joined the show to walk us through how the queen of talks influence may have led us to this moment in American health care.
It's Been a Minute
The Oprah to "Make America Healthy Again" Pipeline
Okay, so I have a good idea of why, like, Oprah was probably drawn to Dr. Oz. But how do you explain Dr. Phil? Like, you mentioned that he was Oprah's trial coach, to which I say... leak the practice tapes. Okay. Stop being shy. Leak the practice tapes.
It's Been a Minute
The Oprah to "Make America Healthy Again" Pipeline
So we have Dr. Oz, the former heart surgeon. We have Dr. Phil, the no-nonsense psychologist. I wonder, like, what is Oprah's personal brand here when it comes to self-improvement? Because she's not just platforming other people's she's definitely selling something too.
It's Been a Minute
The Oprah to "Make America Healthy Again" Pipeline
For the next few weeks, we're delving into some of the origins, conspiracy theories, and power grabs that have led us to this moment and what that could mean for our health. For the final episode in our Road to Maha series, we are talking about the one, the only Oprah Winfrey. She is the ultimate self-made woman story.
It's Been a Minute
The Oprah to "Make America Healthy Again" Pipeline
Yes. Yes. It's kind of like Oprah has a fabulous life. She managed to do it through grit, hard work, determination, and a little bit of luck. And now she wants to share the secrets of the spoils of this life with us.
It's Been a Minute
The Oprah to "Make America Healthy Again" Pipeline
I have a question, though, about audience. The three of us are talking. And for those who don't know at home listening. We're all Black. So obviously I know that we were like, I think, an implied sector of Oprah's audience. But I don't think we were the only people that she was trying to reach or the only people who were picking up what she was putting down.
It's Been a Minute
The Oprah to "Make America Healthy Again" Pipeline
Talk to me about Oprah's audience then and now.
It's Been a Minute
The Oprah to "Make America Healthy Again" Pipeline
That is Dr. Kelly Carter-Jackson, historian and co-host of You Get a Podcast, a show about the queen of talk.
It's Been a Minute
The Oprah to "Make America Healthy Again" Pipeline
You know, in thinking about these different versions of Oprah, I think one of the things that kind of accelerated this change in Oprah is this bootstraps mentality was perhaps, you know, inspired by her own exceptionalism and overcoming poverty and abuse and so much more. And also...
It's Been a Minute
Why are people smearing beef fat on their face?
Samantha, Jennifer, thank you both so much. This was great.
It's Been a Minute
Why are people smearing beef fat on their face?
That was Marie Claire, Senior Beauty Editor, Samantha Hollander, and beauty journalist, Jennifer Sullivan. And before we go, I want to say a big thank you. If you were one of the listeners who answered the call in the last month and supported our show by signing up for NPR Plus, I see you all. You make me so very happy. That support is so important to keeping our show going. So thank you.
It's Been a Minute
Why are people smearing beef fat on their face?
Now, I wasn't sure if it was just me seeing this, so I went out on the street to see what the public knows about beef tallow as skincare and whether they try it. Have you heard of this trend of people moisturizing their faces?
It's Been a Minute
Why are people smearing beef fat on their face?
And if you've heard about NPR Plus but aren't supporting us yet, it's really easy to sign up. It takes maybe 20 seconds. Just go to plus.npr.org. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Liam McBain. This episode was edited by Jasmine Romero. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini.
It's Been a Minute
Why are people smearing beef fat on their face?
All right, that's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
Why are people smearing beef fat on their face?
Now, it seems like some of the people who use it love it. And I'm not going to knock that. But one of my guests today just might.
It's Been a Minute
Why are people smearing beef fat on their face?
That was Marie Claire, senior beauty editor, Samantha Hollander. I sat down with her and beauty journalist Jennifer Sullivan.
It's Been a Minute
Why are people smearing beef fat on their face?
to understand why the beef tallow trend has taken off, what it says about what we value in our skincare, and whether we should be using beef tallow at all. Okay, so first I want to know, when did you start seeing beef tallow skincare on the rise?
It's Been a Minute
Why are people smearing beef fat on their face?
I do know Nara Smith. But for those who don't, she's a Mormon influencer on social media who makes a lot of her own stuff like from scratch, like from scratch to scratch. And she's one of the most popular trad wives for sure.
It's Been a Minute
Why are people smearing beef fat on their face?
He combined some beef tallow and beeswax in a metal bowl and let that melt over some boiling water.
It's Been a Minute
Why are people smearing beef fat on their face?
That lines up with what I kind of have observed on social media. I will say I got into it Because like on TikTok, I loved watching this Black American woman living in Ireland, like in the countryside. She's constantly making tallow cakes. I think eventually she would make them into soap. So I could just watch her make these like in a crock pot in her kitchen.
It's Been a Minute
Why are people smearing beef fat on their face?
It's so soothing. And she had like the loveliest personality. And I was just like, oh my God. But yeah, I did notice kind of like the rise of tallow along with the rise of kind of like this homesteader on the range type of aesthetic that has also made its way across social media. But we'll get into more of that later.
It's Been a Minute
Why are people smearing beef fat on their face?
First, I want to throw out a theory that I have about why beef tallow is getting so popular. I think like the rise of K-beauty, which we've discussed on this show before. K-beauty, it's like this huge beauty industry coming out of Korea. But they really set a standard for having like these 5, 10, 12-step skincare routines. And me, myself, personally,
It's Been a Minute
Why are people smearing beef fat on their face?
I mean, I was bought in hook, line, and sinker, baby. I was doing so many things to my face. And I have to say, it looked good. But I do feel like it was the norm for a lot of those products that people were putting on their faces, like, sometimes twice a day, every single day, is they sometimes had a lot of, like... acids or other things that could be kind of harsh on the skin.
It's Been a Minute
Why are people smearing beef fat on their face?
I kind of think that like maybe this is kind of like a boomerang moment where people have reached kind of a saturation point with doing these intense multi-step skincare routines and now kind of want something simple, quote unquote natural, and also like is not going to burn off part of their skin barrier.
It's Been a Minute
Why are people smearing beef fat on their face?
Mm-hmm. I see you nodding, Samantha.
It's Been a Minute
Why are people smearing beef fat on their face?
It's seductive, you know, to think that you can just go to the store and get one thing. Another thing that I'm seeing here is that there's a real premium on beef tallow being perceived as natural. I saw a couple TikToks where one woman ate some of it and was like, if you can't eat it, you shouldn't put it on your skin, which I just want to do a sidebar.
It's Been a Minute
Why are people smearing beef fat on their face?
That's like not necessarily a doctor recommended line of thinking. I just want to be clear about that. And there was another woman I saw on TikTok who said that she liked that there were just a couple ingredients basically in a beef tallow skin product that she was using. And she could pronounce all of them and she knew where they came from.
It's Been a Minute
Why are people smearing beef fat on their face?
And according to Pew, 79% of New Year's resolutions are about one thing, health. But there are so many different aspects to our health, and it's hard to separate fact, fiction, and fad. We're kicking off 2025 with a little series called New Year, New Me. We're getting into some of the big questions and cultural confusion around our health and wellness.
It's Been a Minute
Why are people smearing beef fat on their face?
Why is there such a premium on skincare that's quote unquote natural or pure? Jennifer, I'd love to hear from you.
It's Been a Minute
Why are people smearing beef fat on their face?
Samantha, any thoughts you want to add?
It's Been a Minute
Why are people smearing beef fat on their face?
Okay. So I wonder, are there legitimate reasons to be skeptical of commercial skincare products?
It's Been a Minute
Why are people smearing beef fat on their face?
Yeah, to your point, I mean, there are some ingredients that have been in skincare or beauty products that have led to some scary headlines. I mean, you know, some dry shampoo was recently voluntarily recalled over potential cancer risk. Phthalates are in some skincare products and Those can disrupt the endocrine system.
It's Been a Minute
Why are people smearing beef fat on their face?
And so I can understand how then, you know, if you're coming across a lot of this news and also thinking about how to keep yourself healthy and safe, it could potentially feel like there's so much harm out there in the skincare industry that, you know, I just need to go into my kitchen and render this beef tallow down. Coming up, what do we know about beef tallow and should we use it?
It's Been a Minute
Why are people smearing beef fat on their face?
I see similar mistrust in our consumer products in other areas, like in the Make America Healthy Again movement, which if you didn't know, RFK Jr. has beef tallow merch on his website, which I find very interesting. We also see it in the growing movement against ultra-processed foods.
It's Been a Minute
Why are people smearing beef fat on their face?
OK, so let's get into it. What are the possible benefits and possible harms of beef tallow as skin care? Like what do we know and what do we not know?
It's Been a Minute
Why are people smearing beef fat on their face?
This week, for our final installment of New Year, New Me, we're diving into a new skincare trend that truly astounded me. Beef tallow. It's basically beef fat that's been rendered down from suet. And I've been seeing videos of people slathering it on their faces.
It's Been a Minute
Why are people smearing beef fat on their face?
What gets me about this is that it's kind of being sold as this miracle treatment that is in some ways responding to a real fear that people have of lab-created chemicals that could be harmful potentially. But it seems like it's trading on an idea that things – used to be so much better when we didn't have science and everything was quote unquote natural.
It's Been a Minute
Why are people smearing beef fat on their face?
But back in the day, people put lead in their makeup. Mercury used to be a treatment for acne. These are both pretty dangerous things for people, but they're both elements that occur naturally and come from the earth. It's almost like the good old days that some people want to hearken back to maybe they didn't actually exist.
It's Been a Minute
Why are people smearing beef fat on their face?
And science is actually the thing that's helped us avoid a lot of harm from our cosmetics and skincare products.
It's Been a Minute
Get rich or die trying: how sports betting is changing our love of the game
A whopping 48% of men 18 to 49 have an account with at least one of the online sportsbooks. Now, if the term sportsbook sounds unfamiliar to you, don't worry. You probably know these ones. DraftKings. Now, I know Super Bowl and all, but everyone gets a free bet?
It's Been a Minute
Get rich or die trying: how sports betting is changing our love of the game
I love betting on the NBA with FanDuel, especially when I've got the world's greatest basketball mind on my side.
It's Been a Minute
Get rich or die trying: how sports betting is changing our love of the game
Platforms like FanDuel and DraftKings give potential bettors access to all types of odds, wagers and bets just with a swipe of their finger.
It's Been a Minute
Get rich or die trying: how sports betting is changing our love of the game
That is Manny Fidel, a writer and producer who sometimes bets on sports himself.
It's Been a Minute
Get rich or die trying: how sports betting is changing our love of the game
He wrote an article in GQ about his sports betting experience and how he's opting out of participating in sports betting's biggest and most enticing moneymaker.
It's Been a Minute
Get rich or die trying: how sports betting is changing our love of the game
While it can be a fun way to spice up a game, sports betting has become so ubiquitous that it almost feels separate from gambling entirely. And for me, that raised some alarm bells.
It's Been a Minute
Get rich or die trying: how sports betting is changing our love of the game
Now more than ever, finances are at the top of everyone's mind. And young people are feeling that pressure especially hard. But sports betting seems to be hitting a cultural nerve that has some young men in a bind.
It's Been a Minute
Get rich or die trying: how sports betting is changing our love of the game
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. As you all know, I was obsessed with the 2025 Papal Conclave. There were TikTok edits about all the potential candidates, a Twitter account called Club Conclave, dedicating to following the updates.
It's Been a Minute
Get rich or die trying: how sports betting is changing our love of the game
And for the next few weeks, we're looking into the ways everyday people are trying to make ends meet and what that says about how our culture views labor, basic needs, or even our favorite pastimes. Today, Manny and Danny join me to get into how sports betting has gone from pastime to potential side hustle, even changing the way we watch sports.
It's Been a Minute
Get rich or die trying: how sports betting is changing our love of the game
And I want to know, what does the rise in sports betting mean for the love of the game? Okay, first off, how has sports betting gotten this kind of brand makeover or change in framing that's been so appealing to young guys?
It's Been a Minute
Get rich or die trying: how sports betting is changing our love of the game
The long arc of time will get you something.
It's Been a Minute
Get rich or die trying: how sports betting is changing our love of the game
And before Pope Leo XIV was chosen to lead the Catholic Church, the media was in a full speculative frenzy. But there was just one aspect of the process that I did not expect. People betting on the outcome of the conclave. Similar to the 2024 presidential election, the conclave became a type of sport to follow. And where there's sports, there's sports betting.
It's Been a Minute
Get rich or die trying: how sports betting is changing our love of the game
Say more about that. I learned a little bit about this, and it kind of blew my mind, and I think a lot of our listeners are going to be in the same place.
It's Been a Minute
Get rich or die trying: how sports betting is changing our love of the game
The same game parlay, is this a type of bet that's always been around? Or is it unique to sports betting now?
It's Been a Minute
Get rich or die trying: how sports betting is changing our love of the game
I don't know. For a long time, gambling was sort of seen – as like this seedy thing, right? And now you can see, you know, your favorite sports analyst giving bets or Kevin Hart commercials for DraftKings. I wonder, like, has sports betting rebranded gambling more broadly?
It's Been a Minute
Get rich or die trying: how sports betting is changing our love of the game
I wonder about the ways in which we're seeing young men think about sports betting as a side hustle or as a smart financial move and how that kind of fits in with the way that they have gravitated toward other types of financial risks like day trading or cryptocurrency.
It's Been a Minute
Get rich or die trying: how sports betting is changing our love of the game
Not even just talking about the money-making aspect, but there's a bro culture around those things that to me feels very similar to sports betting. Is that something that y'all are observing as well? And if you are, I'd love to hear what you think about it.
It's Been a Minute
Get rich or die trying: how sports betting is changing our love of the game
That is Danny Funt. He covers sports betting for The Washington Post and is currently working on a book about the sports betting boom. He's been following how sports betting is changing sports and attracting new groups to the possibility of winning big.
It's Been a Minute
Get rich or die trying: how sports betting is changing our love of the game
How has sports betting changed how we engage with sports?
It's Been a Minute
Get rich or die trying: how sports betting is changing our love of the game
I feel like sports is one of the few like arenas in society or culture more broadly that Where a lot of it, when you get down to it, is really about the joy of hard work. And the joy of hard work is also appreciated in the fandom, right?
It's Been a Minute
Get rich or die trying: how sports betting is changing our love of the game
There's a real simplicity in what the spectacle is, which is seeing people do these incredible things with their bodies that they have been, through a combination of heredity and luck and a lot of hard work, they've been able to achieve. Like WNBA, World Cup, I'm a different person, okay? I'm like sports is the universal language, baby. And there's something really beautiful about that.
It's Been a Minute
Get rich or die trying: how sports betting is changing our love of the game
At the end of the day, when you get down to it, that's to me what I've always felt like sports is for. But with this uptick in online sports betting, what is sports about now?
It's Been a Minute
Get rich or die trying: how sports betting is changing our love of the game
Gosh.
It's Been a Minute
Get rich or die trying: how sports betting is changing our love of the game
Jeez, oh Pete's well. There's a lot that's going on, a lot that's still emerging, and I'm so grateful that I was able to discuss all of this with the two of you. Manny, Danny, thank you both so much.
It's Been a Minute
Get rich or die trying: how sports betting is changing our love of the game
My pleasure. Thanks for having me. That was writer and producer Manny Fidel and journalist Danny Funt. And I'm going to put on my influencer hat for a second and ask you to please subscribe to this show on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you're listening. Click follow so you know the latest in culture while it's still hot. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Alexis Williams.
It's Been a Minute
Get rich or die trying: how sports betting is changing our love of the game
This episode was edited by Nina Potok. Our supervising producer is Barton Girdwood. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
Goodbye, church... Hello, Wellness Industrial Complex!
That came from other places like yoga that are now completely divorced from, in many ways at least, they're presented as completely divorced from the spiritualities and the cultures that they come from.
It's Been a Minute
Goodbye, church... Hello, Wellness Industrial Complex!
Oh my gosh, you all have made me see so many things about the wellness industry very differently, but in a good clarifying way. So I thank you both so much for coming on today. This was great.
It's Been a Minute
Goodbye, church... Hello, Wellness Industrial Complex!
That was Alyssa Bereznack, wellness editor for the LA Times and Rina Raphael, author of the book, The Gospel of Wellness, Gyms, Gurus, Goop, and the False Promise of Self-Care. And wow, I am so grateful you made it this far. Yes, you listening right now. It must mean you really like the show, which is awesome because it turns out I really love making it for you.
It's Been a Minute
Goodbye, church... Hello, Wellness Industrial Complex!
And I'm going to let you in on a little secret. You can become an even bigger fan of the show by signing up for It's Been a Minute Plus. It supports this show and all of public media. Plus, you get to listen to every episode of the show sponsor-free. There's a link in the description of this episode, or you can go to plus.npr.org slash itsbeenaminute to sign up.
It's Been a Minute
Goodbye, church... Hello, Wellness Industrial Complex!
And seriously, thanks so much for hanging out with me. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Liam McBain. This episode was edited by Nina Potok. Engineering support came from Zoe Vangenhoven. Our supervising producer is Barton Girdwood. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini.
It's Been a Minute
Goodbye, church... Hello, Wellness Industrial Complex!
I want to know, what do people get out of a wellness-based spirituality? And is it a spirituality of the self? To find out, I sat down with Alyssa Bereznack, wellness editor for the LA Times. Thank you so much. And Rina Raphael, author of the book, The Gospel of Wellness, Jim's Guru's Goop and the False Promise of Self-Care.
It's Been a Minute
Goodbye, church... Hello, Wellness Industrial Complex!
All right, that's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
Goodbye, church... Hello, Wellness Industrial Complex!
Take a deep breath in and out. And let's get into it. Okay, I want to define some terms first. Wellness. It's a big word. It's a big word. And it describes a huge number of different practices. And it's a term that seems like it's getting broader and broader in definition all the time. So my first question, what even is wellness?
It's Been a Minute
Goodbye, church... Hello, Wellness Industrial Complex!
I'm sorry, who's thinking of CBD leggings? I've never heard of those before. Yeah. Got to get some, Brittany. They're all the rage. I'm not on the right email list service. I tell you what. But I think about like the way that yoga, it's a practice that promotes a spiritual connection through the body.
It's Been a Minute
Goodbye, church... Hello, Wellness Industrial Complex!
And, you know, I think about other things like Reiki, which I mean, I mean, myself have done some Reiki from time to time and enjoyed it. But I mean, you know, Reiki is really about, you know, connection to spirit anyway. And I think I've also done breath work. sound baths, but there is definitely a lot of spirituality woven throughout a lot of these practices.
It's Been a Minute
Goodbye, church... Hello, Wellness Industrial Complex!
And so I'm wondering, wellness and spirituality, how did these things get connected?
It's Been a Minute
Goodbye, church... Hello, Wellness Industrial Complex!
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. America is a deeply spiritual nation. Over 70% of us say that we feel spiritual in some way, but at the same time, we're also getting less religious.
It's Been a Minute
Goodbye, church... Hello, Wellness Industrial Complex!
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so we know that spirituality is integrating into wellness, but I wonder in what ways are some of these wellness practices shaped like organized religion? Like are people worshiping wellness itself? And what do people get out of that?
It's Been a Minute
Goodbye, church... Hello, Wellness Industrial Complex!
Speaking of drawbacks, this is not at all to say that religious institutions are better than more alternative spiritualities. But are there things that organized religions offer that wellness is missing?
It's Been a Minute
Goodbye, church... Hello, Wellness Industrial Complex!
Wait, what does that mean? That's interesting. I hadn't heard that phrasing before. Americans are choosing more spiritual practices based on their feelings?
It's Been a Minute
Goodbye, church... Hello, Wellness Industrial Complex!
But again, what I'm hearing is that these, as you said, self-serving kinds of spiritualities are often more internally and personally focused and less externally and community focused. What do you think about that, Alyssa?
It's Been a Minute
Goodbye, church... Hello, Wellness Industrial Complex!
Yeah, there are traditions of giving to the needy or supporting community programs connected to worship in religions like Christianity and Islam.
It's Been a Minute
Goodbye, church... Hello, Wellness Industrial Complex!
When asked to check a box next to their religious affiliation, 28% of Americans check the box labeled none. The nuns, as they're sometimes called, are now the biggest religious group in the United States. But for people who are spiritual but not religious, what's replacing organized religion? What do they believe? And where does that belief show up in all of our lives?
It's Been a Minute
Goodbye, church... Hello, Wellness Industrial Complex!
Are businesses doing a good job of filling the void that, say, a church may have filled in the past?
It's Been a Minute
Goodbye, church... Hello, Wellness Industrial Complex!
That's an excellent point. I mean, really what you're saying is that it sounds like wellness just fits more easily into capitalism than perhaps traditional religion.
It's Been a Minute
Goodbye, church... Hello, Wellness Industrial Complex!
Coming up, how wellness culture can promote conspirituality, meaning the intersection of conspiracy and spirituality.
It's Been a Minute
Goodbye, church... Hello, Wellness Industrial Complex!
Sometimes that kind of intense focus on the self, as we're discussing, doesn't leave much room for the messiness of other people, but also doesn't leave much room for things to be outside of your control. I think that partially because of that, there are ways in which some of the, you know, body-based spiritualism or spirituality kind of happening is
It's Been a Minute
Goodbye, church... Hello, Wellness Industrial Complex!
can curdle into things like orthorexia or even, you know, conspiracy. I think a lot of us have seen that pop up in the past few years. Some people have discussed like the wellness to QAnon pipelines.
It's Been a Minute
Goodbye, church... Hello, Wellness Industrial Complex!
Well, for the next couple of weeks on our new series called Losing My Religion, we're going to find out. Today, we're getting into wellness. It's a global industry worth $6 trillion that's starting to encompass all kinds of things, including spirituality, from the spirituality of wellness practices like yoga and Reiki to treating wellness itself like a religion.
It's Been a Minute
Goodbye, church... Hello, Wellness Industrial Complex!
Wow, I'm sorry. That's a phrase for the ages. The flip side of optimism is gullibility. My gosh, my gosh. We've been talking a lot about spirituality of the self, the spirituality of these very market-friendly wellness practices. But let's also talk about the way wellness can show up within religion. I've seen some reporting that
It's Been a Minute
Goodbye, church... Hello, Wellness Industrial Complex!
Churches are now trying to offer some wellness practices like yoga and sound baths. Do you think that those kinds of spiritual but not religious activities could integrate into a more traditional spirituality?
It's Been a Minute
Goodbye, church... Hello, Wellness Industrial Complex!
You know, we're talking about the way that, you know, different sects of religion and houses of worship have come to adopt wellness practices as a way of drawing people in. But also, conversely, across the wellness industry, there are all these different kinds of spiritual or spiritual-ish practices that
It's Been a Minute
The men's loneliness epidemic might not exist
And I think a lot of women saw this narrative about male loneliness and they were like, oh, please do not make this my problem. Yeah. But clearly a significant number of men are finding it hard to make friends or reach out to people for connection when they're lonely. So what needs to change?
It's Been a Minute
The men's loneliness epidemic might not exist
That was Ali Volpe, senior reporter at Vox and Harris Sokol, writer and content lead at Medium. If you or someone you know may be considering suicide or is in crisis, call or text 988 to reach the Suicide in Crisis Lifeline. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Liam McBain. This episode was edited by Jasmine Romero. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams.
It's Been a Minute
The men's loneliness epidemic might not exist
We asked our listeners what that looks like. And here's what a few of them had to say.
It's Been a Minute
The men's loneliness epidemic might not exist
Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
The men's loneliness epidemic might not exist
That was Rick Klebanow, Jonathan Ellis, and Devin Burns. You'll hear more from them throughout the episode. But while a lot of men are lonely, some surveys suggest that they aren't actually more likely to be lonely than women are. But if that's true, then why has there been so much attention on men's loneliness?
It's Been a Minute
The men's loneliness epidemic might not exist
And if the problems men are having don't boil down to loneliness, what do they boil down to? I'm joined today by Allie Volpe, senior reporter at Vox. Thanks so much. And Harris Sockle. He's a writer and content lead at Medium. Thanks. To break it all down. According to Pew, there's only a 1% difference in reported loneliness between men and women.
It's Been a Minute
The men's loneliness epidemic might not exist
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. Do you relate? Well, you may be lonely, but you're not alone. One third of Americans report feeling lonely at least once a week. And 16% of Americans report feeling lonely all or most of the time.
It's Been a Minute
The men's loneliness epidemic might not exist
How did the narrative about a men's loneliness epidemic spread anyway?
It's Been a Minute
The men's loneliness epidemic might not exist
Yeah, it's interesting. It's like we got all these different threads, isolation, lack of friends, you know, perhaps less dating or increased celibacy, combined with some of these other things that you mentioned, Ali, like taking up the majority of the suicide rate, unemployment, under education, some of those things might be correlated with each other.
It's Been a Minute
The men's loneliness epidemic might not exist
But they've all kind of been lumped in together with this idea that men are uniquely and especially lonely. I've also seen, though, the idea that men are uniquely lonely, too. used to explain the rise of people like Andrew Tate and the reelection of Donald Trump. Why did loneliness get latched onto as an explanation?
It's Been a Minute
The men's loneliness epidemic might not exist
That's true. Some recent research has found that men expect more benefits from romantic relationships and are more motivated to seek them out compared to women.
It's Been a Minute
The men's loneliness epidemic might not exist
You know, thinking more about the data, like even if men don't self-report loneliness at a rate much higher at all than women, at the same time, I don't want to minimize that something is definitely going on. The same Pew data that we discussed earlier shows that men on a whole are less likely to reach out to people for emotional support compared to women. Other data shows that 15% of men
It's Been a Minute
The men's loneliness epidemic might not exist
It's hard to say definitively if loneliness has gotten worse, but what we do know is that a significant amount of people are feeling it. And we also know that chronic loneliness is really bad for us. Studies show loneliness is associated with a higher risk for heart disease, dementia, stroke, even premature death. But who is at greater risk for loneliness?
It's Been a Minute
The men's loneliness epidemic might not exist
say that they have no close friends, none. Other data suggests that the emotional quality of men's friendships are not great. They get emotional support from friends half as much as women do and also say, I love you half as much. What is going on here? Why are men generally so bad at connection? Harris, what do you think?
It's Been a Minute
The men's loneliness epidemic might not exist
I also wonder too if... it can feel safer to be in a group because then you get more reinforcement that you are doing friendship the right way.
It's Been a Minute
The men's loneliness epidemic might not exist
Whereas like maybe, you know, as we've been kind of circling in this conversation, but I guess I'll say it, maybe perhaps in a one-on-one friendship, because there is so much homophobia in our society, it can feel like, you know, maybe this one-on-one friendship with another man is feeling too romantic. Where in a group, maybe it's more of a way to make sure like the emotional depth is like...
It's Been a Minute
The men's loneliness epidemic might not exist
You know, something else that each of you brought up when you talked to our producer Liam in your pre-interview chats, we don't get a lot of man-to-man friendships in media really outside of buddy comedies.
It's Been a Minute
The men's loneliness epidemic might not exist
And for those of us stuck in the loneliness loop, how do we get ourselves out? I'm Brittany Luce, and for the next few weeks on It's Been a Minute, we're launching a series called All the Lonely People. We're diving deep into how loneliness shows up in our lives and how our culture shapes it. This week, we're talking about men.
It's Been a Minute
The men's loneliness epidemic might not exist
Yeah. Another thing from the Pew study gets at something that each of you have brought up, which is that men were just as likely to reach out to their spouse for emotional support as women were. But for every other kind of relationship, they were less likely to say that they'd reach out. You've each kind of discussed this phenomenon of men putting more of their eggs in
It's Been a Minute
The men's loneliness epidemic might not exist
into the relationship basket. But I wonder, what does that do to them when they do that? What do they lose out on by doing that?
It's Been a Minute
The men's loneliness epidemic might not exist
Oh my God, splitting chores. Budgeting.
It's Been a Minute
The men's loneliness epidemic might not exist
Outside of the general loneliness epidemic, there's also been a lot of discussion about a men's loneliness epidemic. Study after study is showing that loneliness is on the rise and men are being hit especially hard. It's called the male loneliness epidemic, where men tend to be more isolated than women. And a lot of men are lonely. About one in seven say they're lonely all or most of the time.
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The men's loneliness epidemic might not exist
Connected to this idea. I mean, I think there's a lot of women out there that feel the weight of being relied upon in that way. I mean, I feel very fortunate. I adore my husband. One of the things that I really loved about him and I was very intent on looking for was When I was like looking for a partner was that he had friends, had good friendships and was a good friend.
It's Been a Minute
The men's loneliness epidemic might not exist
He's always making new friends, having plans, got different groups of people that he has dinner with, wine country trips, wine tastings, reality TV, watch parties, all types of things. I have, though, been in relationships where I felt like, oh, my gosh, like, is there anybody else that you could talk to? Is there anybody else in your life? And it's a lot to carry.
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Is your favorite pop star spreading propaganda?
I get that. I don't know. I used to watch that show on NBC. It's not on anymore called This Is Us. I felt like watching that show every week. They were trying to tell me that I needed to have three children. I don't, but that's a story for another time. Our story today begins with none other than Ms.
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Is your favorite pop star spreading propaganda?
Beyonce Giselle Knowles-Carter, who spent her Christmas day performing the NFL halftime show in her hometown of Houston, Texas.
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Is your favorite pop star spreading propaganda?
the performance lasted more than 12 minutes and brought many of the things we associate with Black Southern rodeo culture, horses, line dances, and even real-life rodeo queens to the homes of more than 27 million viewers in the United States alone. But as the singer ascended above the crowd, belting songs from her latest album, Cowboy Carter, some viewers got a different message.
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Is your favorite pop star spreading propaganda?
In the days after the halftime performance, a TikTok user that goes by the name Han posited that through Beyonce's widespread usage of the American flag and her embrace of other symbols of Americana on the world stage, Mrs. Knowles-Carter was acting as America's best press agent.
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Is your favorite pop star spreading propaganda?
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. This week, we're connecting the dots between the American flag, the Catholic Church, and Beyonce. I know, I know. How are all of these things connected?
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Is your favorite pop star spreading propaganda?
This spurred a flurry of responses.
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Is your favorite pop star spreading propaganda?
The girls are being very disingenuous. Nobody not once said that Beyonce is above critique. Real quick, if you were not raised in the South, I need you to shut your mouth. This went on for weeks. Now, Beyonce is no stranger to using her music to communicate the message. Who can forget when she performed in front of the word FEMINIST in all caps and huge lettering on the MTV Video Music Awards?
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Is your favorite pop star spreading propaganda?
Or when she posed on top of a sinking New Orleans police car in her music video for Formation? She's also not the only superstar to traffic heavily in political imagery. You know, artists across genres have done this as well, from Michael Jackson to Bruce Springsteen. But the question of whether these acts constitute propaganda has me asking, just how prominent is propaganda in our pop culture?
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Is your favorite pop star spreading propaganda?
So, Daphne, Nick, is propaganda the right word for what Beyonce did with her NFL halftime show?
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Is your favorite pop star spreading propaganda?
Do you think propaganda is the right word?
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Is your favorite pop star spreading propaganda?
Yeah, I mean, it sounds like what you're both saying is that perhaps propaganda is not the right word here, but it is important that people read culture critically, even the culture that they enjoy the most. It feels like we're in a time where people are highly concerned about the role of propaganda in the media.
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Is your favorite pop star spreading propaganda?
I mean, there's been many such times in the past, but I feel like that's definitely something that's coloring the world that we're in right now. You know, even looking at the platform of TikTok itself, one of the concerns the U.S. government has is that its algorithms could be used or will be used to disseminate propaganda.
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Is your favorite pop star spreading propaganda?
Meta, the social media company, has announced that it will end its fact-checking feature in favor of quote-unquote community notes. This is the soup we're all stewing in right now, right? What do the concerns about Beyonce and propaganda say about this moment?
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Is your favorite pop star spreading propaganda?
Well, we're going to find out with music and Black feminism scholar, Dr. Daphne A. Brooks, and mass communication historian, Dr. Nicholas Cull. Daphne, Nick, welcome to It's Been a Minute. Great to be here. Thanks for having us, Brittany. Okay, so I got a real quick question for you. Have you ever watched something on TV and thought, okay, now this is propaganda.
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Is your favorite pop star spreading propaganda?
Coming up, what you and other Americans may have fundamentally misunderstood about propaganda.
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Is your favorite pop star spreading propaganda?
What each of you... Our saying is what Beyonce's doing isn't exactly propaganda, but what she's presenting and how she's presenting it isn't coming out of or into a vacuum. I mean, first of all, the American flag is not a neutral symbol. Not at all. For many people in this country and outside of it. not a neutral symbol. But also Beyonce engages with politics in real life.
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Is your favorite pop star spreading propaganda?
I mean, she supported democratic presidential candidates like former president Obama and vice president Harris. She's donned black Panther inspired costuming at the Superbowl, another NFL jump scare in 2016. And we all know the Carters, both Beyonce and her husband, they both have friendly business relationships to the NFL. After the whole Colin Kaepernick scandal,
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Is your favorite pop star spreading propaganda?
situation after which the NFL had a serious reputation crisis on their hands, right? Allegations of racism on their hands. And Beyonce seems to jump back and forth between anti-establishment and pro-establishment imagery. But like I've said, she isn't the only one. Why is it important to take note of the dissonances in this kind of messaging from huge public figures?
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Is your favorite pop star spreading propaganda?
I have one last question. When we are presented with media, that has political messaging, what are the questions we should be asking ourselves as we interpret it?
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Is your favorite pop star spreading propaganda?
You mean you enjoy the feeling of being reached out to?
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Is your favorite pop star spreading propaganda?
Hmm. So it sounds like you're both advocating for critical thinking. And that is something that I can 150% get behind. This is not propaganda. Well, Dr. Call, Dr. Brooks, I've learned so much here. Thank you both so much. Thank you, Brittany.
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Is your favorite pop star spreading propaganda?
That was music and Black feminism scholar Dr. Daphne A. Brooks and mass communication historian Dr. Nicholas Cull. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Corey Antonio Rose. Barton Girdwood. This episode was edited by Jasmine Romero. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right.
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Is your favorite pop star spreading propaganda?
That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
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Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
I mean, I even think about when the United Auto Workers organized that huge strike, I being able to get a different view on what their concerns were, what they're worried about, what's vital about what they do.
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Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
Well, Isabella, I really appreciate you coming here and talking with us about this. Thank you so much for having me. That was NPR culture reporter Isabella Gomez Sarmiento. Her article titled, Why Would a Musician Join Only Fans? Because Making a Living is Only Getting Harder, is available right now on NPR.org.
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Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
And I'm going to put on my influencer hat for a second and ask you to please subscribe to this show on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you're listening. Click follow so you know the latest in culture while it's still hot. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Alexis Williams. This episode was edited by Nina Potok. Our supervising producer is Barton Girdwood.
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Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce.
It's Been a Minute
Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
And while artists doing sex work is not a new thing, what is new, at least to me, is why they're doing it.
It's Been a Minute
Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident.
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Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
I don't know about you, but I was always under the impression that artists make the bulk of their money on tour. But that income model has changed drastically over the years.
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Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
This is Money Troubles. And for the next few weeks, we're looking into the ways everyday people are trying to make ends meet and what that says about how our culture views labor, basic needs, or even our favorite pastimes.
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Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
Today on the show, Isabella joins me to get into why artists are opting out of traditional platforms and what it says about our growing divide between the haves and the have-nots. I want to talk more about what's going on with touring and why that seems like it has become less and less of a solid economic opportunity for artists, especially independent artists.
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Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
In your article, Stephen Parker, executive director of the National Independent Venue Association, names Live Nation as the, quote, biggest threat to live touring in the United States because of their monopoly on the live music market. Can you give an idea of the allegations that artists or legislators have made against Live Nation or companies like it?
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Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
You know, something else that I have seen is other established artists talking about how difficult touring has been. I'm thinking of artists like James Blake and Little Brother. Little Brother has been critical of also venues themselves that are asking for a cut from independent artists when they previously had not.
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Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
Do you all remember this line from Megan Thee Stallion's Savage remix?
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Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
Little Brother is embarking on what they say will be their last tour this year, which is wild to think about. You know, a group with such a solid fan base saying, hey, touring isn't worth it for us anymore. That's something that definitely caught my attention.
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Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
Whether that means, you know, they stop touring or they start doing sex work on OnlyFans, there are plenty of artists who have had to make these career-altering decisions to how they approach their careers in the past five years, you know, since the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic.
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Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
At the time, this was just a cheeky line from Beyonce about the meteoric rise of OnlyFans during lockdown. For those of you who are out of the loop, OnlyFans is a subscription or pay-per-view based social media platform. It's mostly known for sex work, as many adult stars and performers have moved to the app to create and upload content on their own terms.
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Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
But, I mean, there's also, on the other hand, artists like Taylor Swift, who's selling out, you know, the Eros tour. Would you say the music industry is experiencing, or maybe has always experienced, a little bit of a haves and have-nots dynamic? And what about a music industry middle class? Is there anything in between?
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Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
One of the things I've been thinking about is a lot of these musicians seem to be moving towards OnlyFans or digital sex work because they're not making as much money perhaps as they are used to making or as much money as they think is fair for their music.
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Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
But setting that aside for a second, I mean, OnlyFans is known for being a platform where sex workers can take control of their careers within the adult film industry or within just like the sex industry more broadly. I wonder how has this celebrity presence on the platform affected the non-celebrity sex workers on OnlyFans?
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Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
But it's also become an avenue for music artists to share exclusive content.
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Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
What the music industry's shrinking middle class means for artists and fans alike.
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Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
I wonder, you know, as we're talking about this idea of like a music industry middle class, like that it seems is perhaps dwindling. Like who was a middle class artist, say, in like the 90s or earlier 2000s? How would their business or lifestyle have worked? And how does that compare to now?
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Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
Wow, wow, wow, wow. A lot of people listening to this conversation might think, okay, so these musicians, some of whom probably have more money than I ever will, are no longer able to make as much money as they could in the past. Why should I care? I wonder, why is it important for us everyday people to take notice of this happening in the music industry?
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Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
That is NPR culture reporter Isabella Gomez Sarmiento. She recently wrote a piece about musicians on OnlyFans, and she found that while big stars often use it to give a behind-the-scenes look, into their creative process. Smaller independent artists have turned to sex work on OnlyFans to pay the bills.
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Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
You raise some really good points. The thing that this really does make me think a lot about is the SAG-AFTRA strikes in Hollywood nearly two years ago. Absolutely. The impact of the strikes sort of gave... everyday people insight into the TV and film industry.
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Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
And the fact that, you know, despite making, you know, this work that's highly visible that we all watch and stream and love, there is a significant unprotected middle class or working class within the film and TV industries. The public was able to really make that connection possibly for the first time. I wonder why do you think musicians haven't had that same kind of breakthrough moment?
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Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
That is such an interesting bit, like the fact that the kind of collective power that comes with a union is not just necessarily even just a show of power within your industry towards managers, owners, bosses, but also can be a show of power for people who are outside of your industry and may not fully understand what it is that you do every day.
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"Celebrity" just isn't hitting like it used to...
Yeah, I was going to say it's almost god level. Yeah. I think that part of it is that like I don't know if stans necessarily see being a fan of their fave as like being a fan of celebrity in general. I think they identify with their fave. Like they see aspects of themselves in their fave. And they think like their fame is not like other girls.
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"Celebrity" just isn't hitting like it used to...
And listen, it's already enough that Ryan Reynolds is constantly trying to sell us a budget cell service, but now Harrison Ford is selling me an all-terrain vehicle. That's just a bridge too far for me personally. But what really shocked me was the reaction to Beyoncé's Cowboy Carter tour ticket prices. This is why bell hooks call Beyoncé a terrorist. These ticket prices are an act of terrorism.
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"Celebrity" just isn't hitting like it used to...
So they're like, oh, I'm just defending this person who I identify with myself as opposed to thinking about like, oh, I'm a fan of this celebrity or just like I'll I'm a fan of any celebrity. Like I'm not I think they don't want to feel like rubes.
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"Celebrity" just isn't hitting like it used to...
Yes, my friend, Lord, Savior, the whole thing interchangeably. You know, one last thought. We've established that more and more celebrities seem to be cash grapping, overexposed, out of touch. Americans seem, at least the national tenor seems to be that we are growing increasingly disenchanted with them. And yet here they are. And so I wonder, what would it take for us to divest from celebrity?
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"Celebrity" just isn't hitting like it used to...
And is that something we even want?
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"Celebrity" just isn't hitting like it used to...
Then we're free. Yeah, then we're going to be fighting for water.
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"Celebrity" just isn't hitting like it used to...
Oh, you know they have their own Wi-Fi down there. You know it's going to be like, oh, my gosh.
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"Celebrity" just isn't hitting like it used to...
Then people will be fighting over which of their faves bunker is the best one. Yeah. Oh, that's grim. That's grim.
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"Celebrity" just isn't hitting like it used to...
All right. Well, oh, my gosh. This has been such a fun conversation. Thank you both so much.
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"Celebrity" just isn't hitting like it used to...
A round of applause for our fantastic guests. That was Vulture's Rachel Handler and Vox's Alex Abad-Santos, live from On Air Fest in Brooklyn, New York. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Alexis Williams, Liam McBain. This episode was edited by Nina Potok. Our supervising producer is Barton Girdwood. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams.
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"Celebrity" just isn't hitting like it used to...
Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right, that's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
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"Celebrity" just isn't hitting like it used to...
The very first thing I should have seen come from Beyoncé after this ticket debacle is a lawsuit against Ticketmaster. You're pricing, not pricing, ma'am. After the whole ticket debacle, Beyonce went on later that week to promote her perfume on Instagram. And the comments? I did not know the hive had it in them.
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"Celebrity" just isn't hitting like it used to...
But Beyonce is far from the only celebrity to sell, market, be the face of, or the face behind a product. And the way these egg prices are set up, all this product pushing is getting a bit stale, if you ask me. So when I got the opportunity to host It's Been a Minute Live. Hello, hello, everybody.
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"Celebrity" just isn't hitting like it used to...
Last month at On Air Fest in Brooklyn, New York, I knew exactly who to call to get to the bottom of this. Vulture Features writer Rachel Handler.
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"Celebrity" just isn't hitting like it used to...
and senior correspondent at Vox, Alex Abad-Santos.
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"Celebrity" just isn't hitting like it used to...
Alex and Rachel joined me live at On Air Fest to get into the depth of celebrity culture, and if that's something we even want. But first, I had to know, what moment made them think celebrity culture had started to take a turn?
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"Celebrity" just isn't hitting like it used to...
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident.
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"Celebrity" just isn't hitting like it used to...
That's a really good one. She was kind of like I think in many ways one of the last like rock stars I feel like that we had in her behavior. Right, right.
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"Celebrity" just isn't hitting like it used to...
Look at that. Look at that. One of the big things I've been thinking about in terms of like why celebrities feel so tiresome, I think, to so many of us right now are that they are everywhere. We have, in some ways, it feels like unlimited access to them. I mean, they're on every channel. Yeah. Social media, commercials, interviews.
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"Celebrity" just isn't hitting like it used to...
I mean, going back to these celebrities at the Super Bowl and how many of them were in commercials, some of whom I haven't seen act in a minute, right? But someone was like, just come here for six hours. We'll give you a check. And they're like, all right, I'll get up. I do kind of see this as a recession marker. I say this as somebody who is not an econ reporter. Don't come for me.
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"Celebrity" just isn't hitting like it used to...
This is just... Think about this the same way you might think about astrology, okay? But I wonder, how do you think... The high level of access we have to celebrities now is kind of feeding into the moment that we're in with being disenchanted with them.
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"Celebrity" just isn't hitting like it used to...
Yeah. That makes me think about another aspect in all this. I think with that kind of illusion of access, the way that not just even celebrities, but everyday people communicate with each other or with the masses on social media has changed.
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"Celebrity" just isn't hitting like it used to...
The kind of very manicured Instagram posts that we all remember has been replaced by people literally rolling out of bed on TikTok and being like, hey, what's up? Or being like, get ready with me. Or being like, look how nasty my house is. Or-
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"Celebrity" just isn't hitting like it used to...
To your point, Rachel, I think that that veneer of authenticity, whether or not it really exists, that has become a lot more valuable in how celebrities represent themselves. I think about like Chapel Roan and Dochi, like two people who have the capability of being very glammed up and having this stage persona.
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"Celebrity" just isn't hitting like it used to...
But as soon as they get on social media, they're like talking back to people in the comments. That's very different than the kind of relationship that really big Hollywood stars have like with their fans. it might seem de classe for them to like actually connect with people authentically.
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"Celebrity" just isn't hitting like it used to...
I mean, Chappell already doesn't speak as much to people. She used to like be in her room on TikTok or whatever. I mean, again, like all roads do, it takes me back to Britney Spears and thinking about like sort of like the two halves. The first half is kind of like a, I'm your dream girl.
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"Celebrity" just isn't hitting like it used to...
And then that sort of second half of her career where lots of people love Britney for that, where she's this real, raw, authentic person who is also going to fight with a photographer. The public wants both. And sometimes- We want both at the same time, which I imagine is very hard to give.
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"Celebrity" just isn't hitting like it used to...
You have? Okay. You have her cleaning spray?
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"Celebrity" just isn't hitting like it used to...
More on the death of celebrity culture after the break.
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"Celebrity" just isn't hitting like it used to...
I like that. I like that. If you ask me, I think celebrity and celebrity culture are in a really precarious place. For example, we've talked about the oversaturation of celebrities at the Super Bowl. This year alone, Martha Stewart and Matthew McConaughey did an Uber Eats commercial. Issa Rae pretended to file her taxes with TurboTax. Ben Affleck continued his Dunkin' Donuts partnership.
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"Celebrity" just isn't hitting like it used to...
You know, I think the biggest part of all of this, why celebrity culture feels like it is withering and dying on the vine, is actually a phrase that you used earlier, Rachel. Class consciousness, baby.
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"Celebrity" just isn't hitting like it used to...
If I'm worried about the price of X, or if I'm worried how I'm going to save for a down payment on something, somewhere, at some point in my life, which is how it feels currently, some point in my life, it might bother me to see a multimillionaire You know, movie star or pop star who's, you know, been famous longer than I've been alive, you know, making an ad on Super Bowl Sunday.
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"Celebrity" just isn't hitting like it used to...
Or someone who's been profiled recently by Netflix for everything they've overcome in their business over the past four or five decades. Martha Stewart, I love the documentary. Additionally, I think some of these celebrities are trying to get us to buy stuff that doesn't even make sense online. for them to be selling. Like I think about Beyonce for a long time did not drink.
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"Celebrity" just isn't hitting like it used to...
And then she came up out of nowhere and she said, I'm selling whiskey. I said, to drink with who? Is it for you? Is it for you? And you know, I've heard it's tasty. I don't know. Cause I mean, I'm not buying it. Like, like I said, I'm on a budget. This one really got me. Courtney Cox. Courtney Cox, as you all know, she played Monica on Friends.
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"Celebrity" just isn't hitting like it used to...
Courtney Cox is selling hand soap, which I guess I get. Candles. Okay. Yeah. Cleaning spray? Courtney Cox cleaning spray? When was the last time you think she cleaned her bathroom was? Just a guess. Just a guess. When was the last time you think she cleaned her bathroom?
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"Celebrity" just isn't hitting like it used to...
You have? Okay. You have her cleaning spray?
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"Celebrity" just isn't hitting like it used to...
When Goop first came out, I was subscribed the first week. That's like my secret shame. And I said, what about your girl? How you doing? What's going on? What's going on? But this is the thing. I also think about just the insane amount of products that celebrities are selling. I mean, Machine Gun Kelly, in case you didn't know, and Megan Fox have a nail polish line.
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"Celebrity" just isn't hitting like it used to...
And see, and now you do. And now we're all worse for it. Yep. Brad Pitt is selling cashmere sweaters. What Brad Pitt has to do with cashmere? What? I don't know. How do you see the public as receiving these kinds of celebrity endorsements and product lines? How do you think that has kind of tipped the scales on the class consciousness angle of it all?
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"Celebrity" just isn't hitting like it used to...
No! Please tell me you got a TJ Maxx.
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"Celebrity" just isn't hitting like it used to...
I like that. I like that. You know, you can't bring up Beyonce, Nicki Minaj, Taylor Swift, Miss Private Plain herself. You can't bring their names up anywhere in line, sometimes not even in public, without like...
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"Celebrity" just isn't hitting like it used to...
And Harrison Ford got in on the action, too.
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"Celebrity" just isn't hitting like it used to...
waking up the stands I'm looking over my shoulders right now because you never know or getting doxxed you know like if you say something that you don't that someone doesn't like about their fave they're gonna like pull up your mom's social security card you know what I mean I wonder why do you think stan culture seems to be more prevalent in some ways more toxic than ever as celebrity or the idea of celebrity the dynamic of celebrity is kind of falling out of public favor
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The acute loneliness of moms
You know, thinking about all this stuff, we've unpacked a lot today. And let me tell you, as somebody who is mom curious, I have learned a lot today in this conversation. But how do we fix it? What needs to change?
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The acute loneliness of moms
I'm Brittany Luce, and for the next few weeks on It's Been a Minute, we're launching a series called All the Lonely People. We're diving deep into how loneliness shows up in our lives and how our culture shapes it. This week, we're talking to moms.
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The acute loneliness of moms
That was Jessica Gross, New York Times opinion writer and author of the book Screaming on the Inside, The Unsustainability of American Motherhood, and associate professor and parental burnout researcher at Ohio State University, Kate Golick. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Liam McBain. This episode was edited by Jasmine Romero. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams.
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The acute loneliness of moms
Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
The acute loneliness of moms
A 2024 survey from Ohio State University showed that 71% of moms said that the demands of parenthood made them feel lonely sometimes or a lot of the time, compared to 59% of dads. But why are moms so acutely lonely? We asked our listeners, and here's what a few of them had to say.
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The acute loneliness of moms
That was Ashley Ludwinski, Tayana Teal, Natalie Crowley, and Yasmeen Baroon. You'll hear more from them throughout the episode. But to break it all down, I'm joined by Jessica Groves, New York Times opinion writer and author of the book Screaming on the Inside, The Unsustainability of American Motherhood. So happy to be here.
It's Been a Minute
The acute loneliness of moms
And associate professor and parental burnout researcher at Ohio State University, Kate Golick.
It's Been a Minute
The acute loneliness of moms
Kate and Jessica are experts, like their jobs are to talk to moms. And they're also both moms themselves. So they're here to tell me why moms are so lonely and what we can do to alleviate mom loneliness. To start, Kate, you have four kids and you told my producer Liam that you've experienced some of this mom loneliness firsthand. What did it look like for you?
It's Been a Minute
The acute loneliness of moms
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. Do you relate? Well, you may be lonely, but you're not alone. One third of Americans report feeling lonely at least once a week. And 16% of Americans report feeling lonely all or most of the time.
It's Been a Minute
The acute loneliness of moms
If you've never been a mom before, how would you even making friends is already can sometimes be tricky enough in adulthood. Like how would you even know to go about how to find mommy friends? Yeah.
It's Been a Minute
The acute loneliness of moms
You just mentioned right now that it's different, like having a mom friend is different than the co-parenting connection you might share with the spouse. I wonder, why might moms feel lonely even if they have a partner, a supportive partner that they love or love?
It's Been a Minute
The acute loneliness of moms
Or even if they have friends, mom friends or non-mom friends, why might moms feel lonely despite having these other kind of supportive connections in their lives?
It's Been a Minute
The acute loneliness of moms
Oh, yeah. It's a very common thing that mom groups start. It's like, you know, you all have kids due February 2025. Then you'll, you know, be in a local mom's group together because, you know, you're gonna have kids around the same age.
It's Been a Minute
The acute loneliness of moms
Kate, I'd love to hear from you on this. Why do you think moms feel lonely even if they have a partner, even if they have friends?
It's Been a Minute
The acute loneliness of moms
Coming up, we get into the structural reasons moms can't catch a break.
It's Been a Minute
The acute loneliness of moms
I want to zoom out for a second. What are some of the cultural reasons why moms feel so lonely?
It's Been a Minute
The acute loneliness of moms
Like, just like, yeah, it's so wild to me, too, because I mean, I don't know, baby's got to go places. People act out on airplanes and they're grown. They fight with the people at the airline.
It's Been a Minute
The acute loneliness of moms
A lot of attention is being paid to loneliness right now. After the former American Surgeon General declared a loneliness epidemic, news organizations from the New York Times to the Atlantic to NPR jumped to cover it. And it's hard to say definitively if loneliness has gotten worse, but what we do know is that a significant amount of people are feeling it.
It's Been a Minute
The acute loneliness of moms
I think I read a statistic somewhere that working mothers today spend more time with their children than stay-at-home moms did in like the 70s or something like that.
It's Been a Minute
The acute loneliness of moms
We've been talking about mom loneliness, but dads are also pretty lonely. I mean, you know, 59%, as per the survey I mentioned earlier, I mean, that's nothing to sneeze at. Why do you think dad loneliness is comparatively lower than mom loneliness?
It's Been a Minute
The acute loneliness of moms
And we also know that chronic loneliness is really bad for us. Studies show loneliness is associated with a higher risk for heart disease, dementia, stroke, even premature death. But who is at greater risk for loneliness? And for those of us stuck in the loneliness loop, how do we get ourselves out?
It's Been a Minute
The acute loneliness of moms
You know, we talked about the cultural reasons for mom loneliness, but I wonder what part of mom loneliness is structural?
It's Been a Minute
Crunchy conservatives want to 'Make America Healthy Again'
Well, I appreciate you both coming on the show and talking with me today. I have learned so much here today.
It's Been a Minute
Crunchy conservatives want to 'Make America Healthy Again'
Thanks for having us. That was writer and co-host of the Conspiratuality Podcast, Derek Barris, and biomedical scientist, Dr. Andrea Love. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Alexis Williams. This episode was edited by Nina Patak. Our supervising producer is Barton Girdwood. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right.
It's Been a Minute
Crunchy conservatives want to 'Make America Healthy Again'
That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
Crunchy conservatives want to 'Make America Healthy Again'
Now, when you hear the word crunchy, you may think about hippies in the 60s and 70s or people making their own kombucha, you know, practicing veganism, folks with left-leaning politics who are living off the land, stuff like that. But these days, that's not quite right.
It's Been a Minute
Crunchy conservatives want to 'Make America Healthy Again'
That is Derek Barris, writer and co-host of the Conspiratuality podcast. a show dedicated to dismantling new age cults, wellness grifters, and conspiracy mad yogis. And he says that the link between this return to nature ideology and conservatism is a pattern we've seen throughout history.
It's Been a Minute
Crunchy conservatives want to 'Make America Healthy Again'
Now, you may be wondering, what does a crunchy conservative look like today? Well, there are the crunchy moms.
It's Been a Minute
Crunchy conservatives want to 'Make America Healthy Again'
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. Have you or someone you love been confused by the push to make America healthy again? Side effects may include being inundated by uncredentialed wellness influencers and crunchy mommy bloggers selling supplements.
It's Been a Minute
Crunchy conservatives want to 'Make America Healthy Again'
The wellness influencers who spread misinformation about the food we consume.
It's Been a Minute
Crunchy conservatives want to 'Make America Healthy Again'
Even right-wing commentators who suddenly have the cure for poisons and toxins.
It's Been a Minute
Crunchy conservatives want to 'Make America Healthy Again'
That is Dr. Andrea Love, a biomedical scientist who has been ringing the alarm on the harm of pseudoscience, conspiracy theories, and of course, crunchy conservatism.
It's Been a Minute
Crunchy conservatives want to 'Make America Healthy Again'
And somehow these conspiracy theorists, anti-vaxxers and wellness influencers have coalesced under the Make America Healthy Again banner and its leader, Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
It's Been a Minute
Crunchy conservatives want to 'Make America Healthy Again'
Listen, this is a lot, but don't worry. Derek and Andrea are going to walk us through this meeting of the minds between what we thought was the far left and the ethos of the right. Where do you think this intersection, this crossover between crunchy and conservative is rooted?
It's Been a Minute
Crunchy conservatives want to 'Make America Healthy Again'
Hmm. You all have pulled up so many different historical examples of how this kind of crunchy granola or crunchy conservative thinking has crested at different points in time throughout American history. But I wonder, like, why are crunchy conservatives so prominent right now?
It's Been a Minute
Crunchy conservatives want to 'Make America Healthy Again'
How crunchy conservatives found RFK Jr.
It's Been a Minute
Crunchy conservatives want to 'Make America Healthy Again'
Feeling perplexed by how RFK Jr. went from an environmental champion to an anti-vax conspiracy theorist. Or maybe seeing the names Dr. Phil and Dr. Oz more and more in your feeds. If that's the case, then you, my friend, are in dire need of our new series. The Road to Make America Healthy Again.
It's Been a Minute
Crunchy conservatives want to 'Make America Healthy Again'
I hear what both of you are saying, but for a lot of groups, this skepticism of experts, doctors, the medical system, science, that skepticism has some historical grounding. I mean, I'm thinking about the inadequate research around diseases that primarily affect women, about the unethical medical experiments done to Black and Latino people in the United States.
It's Been a Minute
Crunchy conservatives want to 'Make America Healthy Again'
Now, I imagine that that also factors into some of the skepticism that people feel.
It's Been a Minute
Crunchy conservatives want to 'Make America Healthy Again'
And I just want to step in here because there's a lot of misinformation about this incident in particular. So for those of you who don't know, Tuskegee refers to the Tuskegee study of untreated syphilis in the Negro male. which ran from 1932 to 1972.
It's Been a Minute
Crunchy conservatives want to 'Make America Healthy Again'
Now, the study was meant to observe the effects of untreated syphilis in black men, but the researchers of the study did not collect informed consent from their subjects. And when a treatment was made available for syphilis, the researchers did not offer them the treatment. Contrary to popular belief, the men were not given syphilis.
It's Been a Minute
Crunchy conservatives want to 'Make America Healthy Again'
They were chosen because they already had syphilis and were not given treatment for the disease. But because of the legacy of this experiment and many others, there has been an understandable distrust of doctors among some people in the black community.
It's Been a Minute
Crunchy conservatives want to 'Make America Healthy Again'
I want to zoom out for a minute. There's a big elephant in the room that we have been discussing in terms of the prominence of crunchy conservatives right now. And that's the Make America Healthy Again movement, Maha. And as I've looked into the Maha movement and kind of like who's a part of it, it's not one group of people who follow conservative ideology.
It's Been a Minute
Crunchy conservatives want to 'Make America Healthy Again'
It's several different groups coming together. Derek, I would love to hear from you on this. Talk to me about some of these different crunchy conservative archetypes.
It's Been a Minute
Crunchy conservatives want to 'Make America Healthy Again'
For the next few weeks, we're delving into some of the origins, conspiracy theories, and power grabs that have led us to this moment and what that could mean for our health. Today, you and I are going to go down the crunchy to conservative pipeline with some guidance, of course.
It's Been a Minute
Crunchy conservatives want to 'Make America Healthy Again'
How exactly did he become a leading voice for Crunchy Conservatives?
It's Been a Minute
Crunchy conservatives want to 'Make America Healthy Again'
You know, I would guess that there are a lot of not particularly crunchy Americans that are still really concerned about their health. But They might be eating a lot of processed foods or they might be vaccinated. So they don't subscribe to some of these emerging crunchy ideologies.
It's Been a Minute
Crunchy conservatives want to 'Make America Healthy Again'
But I'm wondering if the overwhelming majority of people aren't necessarily following these ideologies, how does crunchy conservatism affect the majority of Americans? How is this movement shaping all of us?
It's Been a Minute
Sober-curious? Why your friends (and maybe you) are going dry.
You said, my producer, that you think of sobriety as just being in the world more. So how has just being in the world been important in your life?
It's Been a Minute
Sober-curious? Why your friends (and maybe you) are going dry.
And our Surgeon General just recommended adding cancer risk labels to bottles. Alcohol is also a leading cause of preventable death in the U.S. So I get why dry January is popular. But Ana Marie Cox says we don't need to wait for January to come around.
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Sober-curious? Why your friends (and maybe you) are going dry.
I don't think your gratitude sounds strange. I don't think it sounds strange at all.
It's Been a Minute
Sober-curious? Why your friends (and maybe you) are going dry.
Well, Ana, thank you so much for this conversation. I feel very grateful that we got to speak today.
It's Been a Minute
Sober-curious? Why your friends (and maybe you) are going dry.
Thanks again to Ana Marie Cox. You can find her work at The New Republic, NBC, and elsewhere. And if you're curious about dry January and looking for tips, our friends over at NPR's Life Kit have you covered. They're running a special newsletter this month with expert strategies for how to successfully give up alcohol.
It's Been a Minute
Sober-curious? Why your friends (and maybe you) are going dry.
You can find more information over at npr.org slash newsletter slash zero dash alcohol. That's npr.org slash newsletter slash zero dash alcohol. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Liam McBain. This episode was edited by Jessica Plachek. Jasmine Romero. Engineering support came from Becky Brown. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini.
It's Been a Minute
Sober-curious? Why your friends (and maybe you) are going dry.
All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
Sober-curious? Why your friends (and maybe you) are going dry.
And while she's been sober for over a decade, she's watched more and more people opt out of drinking, be it out of preference or need.
It's Been a Minute
Sober-curious? Why your friends (and maybe you) are going dry.
I went out on the streets to talk to people about how they feel about drinking and whether their relationship to alcohol has changed. Do you feel like you drink more now or less now generally? Much, much less. I'm now in my 40s and the body does not react the same.
It's Been a Minute
Sober-curious? Why your friends (and maybe you) are going dry.
Almost everyone I talked to said they don't drink much or drink less than they used to. And according to Gallup, the amount of Americans that drink is 58%, the lowest number since 1996. And 41% of Americans who do drink say they want to drink less. The appeal of a more sober lifestyle is even showing up in bars, where I'm seeing non-alcoholic options on menus. People are cashing in.
It's Been a Minute
Sober-curious? Why your friends (and maybe you) are going dry.
And the alcohol-free beverage sector is now a multi-billion dollar industry. But how does the rise of sober curiosity jive with our alcohol-centric culture? And what would it look like to live in a more sober world? Here's my chat from last winter with Ana. Ana, welcome to It's Been a Minute.
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Sober-curious? Why your friends (and maybe you) are going dry.
It's great to have you. You wrote in your column for The Cut called Sober Questioning that sobriety was life-saving for you, but you also framed it as something everyone should try at least once, like camping. Me, myself, I am meant to be an indoor cat. But I think that's such an interesting way to put it.
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Sober-curious? Why your friends (and maybe you) are going dry.
How did you come to that philosophy, even though you, like you said, came to sobriety not as a visitor?
It's Been a Minute
Sober-curious? Why your friends (and maybe you) are going dry.
Our conversation in this episode isn't necessarily about our country's relationship to drinking, but more about our relationship to not drinking. Having been sober for over a decade, would you agree that there's been a shift in our society's relationship to not drinking? And if you do agree with that thought, where do you see that shift happening?
It's Been a Minute
Sober-curious? Why your friends (and maybe you) are going dry.
No, but I mean, even being in New York, I forget, like, honestly, how legal it actually is in many other states.
It's Been a Minute
Sober-curious? Why your friends (and maybe you) are going dry.
And a lot of us are getting started on our New Year's resolutions.
It's Been a Minute
Sober-curious? Why your friends (and maybe you) are going dry.
It's something that touches everybody, yeah. I wonder, you know, we're talking about all these trends that we're noticing that could be possible factors as to why there's been this rise in sober curiosity, I guess. What has it been like to watch these changes as someone who is 13 years sober?
It's Been a Minute
Sober-curious? Why your friends (and maybe you) are going dry.
And according to Pew, 79% of New Year's resolutions are about one thing, health. But there are so many different aspects to our health, and it's hard to separate fact, fiction, and fad. We're kicking off 2025 with a little series called New Year, New Me. We're getting into some of the big questions and cultural confusion around our health and wellness.
It's Been a Minute
Sober-curious? Why your friends (and maybe you) are going dry.
I could see how that can be a complicated tension to hold, especially as there is like this commodification. There's these new products springing out. I could see what it's kind of like, OK, well, now there's all these people here.
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Sober-curious? Why your friends (and maybe you) are going dry.
Maybe you've heard, maybe you haven't, but I made a 2025 resolution to bring you more deep dives into what's going on in culture and to keep you up on the latest trends. I'm bringing you a new episode of It's Been a Minute every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. That's right. We get to hang out every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday in this podcast feed. But enough about me. Let's get back to Anna.
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Sober-curious? Why your friends (and maybe you) are going dry.
Something you've reflected on as a sober person, and I can attest to as a person who just doesn't always feel like drinking, there's like an expectation that alcohol is always going to be central to our social interactions. How does that shape our social lives?
It's Been a Minute
Sober-curious? Why your friends (and maybe you) are going dry.
What might our lives look like if we didn't default to socializing or celebrating specifically with alcohol as a default?
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Sober-curious? Why your friends (and maybe you) are going dry.
Yeah, just some random person. And also you have somewhere to put your hands. Somewhere to put your hands. Whether you're holding a drink, you put it on the bar.
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Sober-curious? Why your friends (and maybe you) are going dry.
This week, many people are starting the year off by taking a break from alcohol, at least for this month. Last year, one quarter of American adults participated in Dry January. I've done a few myself, and for many, it is about health. The World Health Organization says there is no amount of alcohol consumption that is safe for our health.
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Sober-curious? Why your friends (and maybe you) are going dry.
It's not the point.
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Sober-curious? Why your friends (and maybe you) are going dry.
have so many interests and they have like their swim class and their dance class and they're like drawing and they're just like, I'm learning a language. Children with their interests. Yeah. They're always doing stuff. And it's cool.
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Sober-curious? Why your friends (and maybe you) are going dry.
I mean, I did a lot of stuff when I was a kid, but I feel like as an adult, I was talking to one of my best friends a couple of weeks ago and she and I were just like, oh, remember hobbies? Remember doing stuff other than going out to eat, going out to have a drink? Remember like doing stuff? And we're going to take a tap dancing class. anywhere, which I'm really excited about. I love it.
It's Been a Minute
Sober-curious? Why your friends (and maybe you) are going dry.
When you have any sort of default and you let go of that, you release that, it leaves a lot of space for new experiences and new opportunities. And I think that that's something that I think a lot of people need, myself, especially in the wintertime.
It's Been a Minute
Sober-curious? Why your friends (and maybe you) are going dry.
We've been discussing how many people are embracing sober curiosity and how there seems to be less of a stigma around deciding not to drink at dinner or during a night out. But there's definitely still a stigma around alcoholism. How can the sober curious or anybody be better allies to those who are in recovery?
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala is tonight, and it's already historic. Here's why.
I would love it if Big Boy was there, too. And they're about to be, like, inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. I just would love to see the two of them together.
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala is tonight, and it's already historic. Here's why.
You know what? I want to see Mahershala Ali. I just feel like that man's face was made for a beautiful hat. Every time he wears a hat, I feel like a tear, like an angel just cries because it's so beautiful.
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala is tonight, and it's already historic. Here's why.
Well, we will see. We will see. And actually, we will all be back tomorrow to review the best and worst looks of the gala. Y'all are going to be able to fully celebrate and judge who did that. And for y'all listening, be sure to check out this feed tomorrow for this extra special bonus episode. And Shelton, Antoine, thank you both so much for getting into all of this with me.
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala is tonight, and it's already historic. Here's why.
Great, great, great, great. That was fashion writer Shelton Boyd Griffith and Black Fashion Fair editor-in-chief Antoine Gregory talking about what to watch for at the 2025 Met Gala. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Barton Girdwood. This episode was edited by Nina Potok. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right.
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala is tonight, and it's already historic. Here's why.
That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala is tonight, and it's already historic. Here's why.
With the tuxedos and the updo and recalling James Brown.
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala is tonight, and it's already historic. Here's why.
Absolutely. Absolutely. In practice, it's all about tailoring and exaggerated or flamboyant takes on menswear. We're talking suits with a twist, top hats, traditional menswear with black flair.
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala is tonight, and it's already historic. Here's why.
That's because dandyism is rooted in the very first transgressive fashion statements enslaved Black people made when they first set foot in America. We'll get into that later. But first, fashion writer Shelton Boyd Griffith.
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala is tonight, and it's already historic. Here's why.
And Black Fashion Fair editor-in-chief Antoine Gregory.
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala is tonight, and it's already historic. Here's why.
And I are going to pretend we're dressing up a celebrity for the Met Gala to give you a better picture of the sophistication and swagger of Black dandyism. Let's pretend you're a stylist and you're dressing someone. Pick any celebrity you want. Anybody. Who would you want to dress and how would you style him?
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala is tonight, and it's already historic. Here's why.
I love that. I love that. Especially, I mean, I feel like Black Dandyism shows up so much across how athletes dress. Yeah. But for me, though, I would absolutely want to dress Queen Latifah. Queen Latifah is a Tom Brown girly. Tom Brown queen. Okay. So she's very often wearing something that is structured and kind of referencing menswear anyway.
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala is tonight, and it's already historic. Here's why.
I just feel like Queen Latifah would really be it in a full tuxedo with the tails. She would body that. I feel like now that she was at Coachella, I'm like, maybe she'll actually be out and about and want to mix with us. Because she doesn't have to.
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala is tonight, and it's already historic. Here's why.
Let's talk Met Gala themes for a second. This year, it's Black Dandyism. In the past, it's been punk or camp or something called Heavenly Bodies, which is a celebration of the aesthetics of the Catholic church, which I'll admit, I love that one. But no matter the theme, the thing is sometimes people on the red carpet get it and sometimes people don't.
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala is tonight, and it's already historic. Here's why.
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. Do y'all have your scorecards ready? Do you have your live stream links ready to go? Are you ready to judge the rich and famous?
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala is tonight, and it's already historic. Here's why.
I'd say Kim Kardashian actually gets it about 30 to 50% of the time. Now, I did think that she did good though with the camp year when she did the full water drop thing. I thought that was incredible.
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala is tonight, and it's already historic. Here's why.
Right, because for people who don't know, the Met Gala is tied to an annual exhibition at the Met Museum.
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala is tonight, and it's already historic. Here's why.
They want to look good. They want to look like their definition of what's good as opposed to... I want to wear my, you know, my gown.
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala is tonight, and it's already historic. Here's why.
Okay, so I'm wondering, though, with this theme, do you think that black dandyism is something that people are going to know how to interpret? And why or why don't you think so?
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala is tonight, and it's already historic. Here's why.
Well, I will say, I feel like Vogue has been very intentional about explaining the theme. Like when it was announced last year, some people, even I myself was like, oh, we'll see how this goes. Because sometimes when people want to interpret Black style, they get a little too creative. And also this time around, they have not just their chairs who are chairing the event.
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala is tonight, and it's already historic. Here's why.
They also have a hosting committee. I get the feeling that they really want people to understand the theme, maybe even just for plausible deniability in case Kim Kardashian comes through with a do-rag. They could just be like, listen now, we didn't say to do that. That's hilarious. You decided to do that. We'll see who gets the theme right.
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala is tonight, and it's already historic. Here's why.
And tomorrow, we'll be back in this feed with a special bonus episode rating the best and worst looks of the night. But ahead of the event, I want to get more into the history of the theme, especially with how it relates to this moment. This, after all, is the very first Met Gala theme that explicitly celebrates Black fashion.
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala is tonight, and it's already historic. Here's why.
It's been decades of Black people topping the best dress list, and now fashion's biggest night is recognizing Black contributions to fashion. What do you all make of the Costume Institute highlighting a Black fashion lineage in this moment when diversity and inclusion are on the outs?
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala is tonight, and it's already historic. Here's why.
Hmm. That's something that's been in the back of my mind as well. We're kind of still having these same conversations over and over again within the fashion industry. I have had similarly mixed feelings myself where I'm excited to see someone like Dapper Dan be able to get the spotlight on him. Somebody who was thought of as an enemy to a brand like Louis Vuitton 40 years ago.
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala is tonight, and it's already historic. Here's why.
now be featured at this event that's sponsored by Louis Vuitton. But even the tension of that to me is kind of, hmm, you know what I mean? At the end of the day, this big brand still gets to profit from the association with this person whose work they did spend some time trying to suppress decades ago.
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala is tonight, and it's already historic. Here's why.
Because tonight, we all get to be fashion critics as celebrities and designers show out at the 2025 Met Gala. And this year, I'm here to give you a guidebook for how to judge the best and worst looks of the night. So every year, the Met Gala has a theme. And every year, some people get it and some people just don't. This year's theme is a special one and a bit complicated.
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala is tonight, and it's already historic. Here's why.
Coming up, Antoine Shelton and I are looking at the history the Met Gala theme is pulling from, from quote unquote luxury slaves, all the way up to the most powerful people at Vogue magazine. Stick around.
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala is tonight, and it's already historic. Here's why.
Okay, so Monica L. Miller is one of the co-curators of the exhibit at the Met. And she wrote this book about the history of black dandyism. It's called Slaves to Fashion. And in it, she talks about, quote, luxury slaves. Some enslavers treated the young black boys that they enslaved like pets or accessories and dressed them in fancy clothes.
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala is tonight, and it's already historic. Here's why.
And you can see this in old portraiture featured in the book. As Miller puts it, these boys were, quote, luxury items collected like any other signifier of wealth and status. And on days they were allowed to dress up, some enslaved people would mend or adorn their own clothing with flair.
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala is tonight, and it's already historic. Here's why.
Sometimes they had these very fashion-forward looks with the clothes they were given or would, quote, borrow from their enslavers. This was one of the only ways enslaved people could express their individuality and bodily autonomy, and even despite some states' sumptuary laws that limited what Black people could wear or how they could style themselves.
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The Met Gala is tonight, and it's already historic. Here's why.
Now, that's the starting point for Black dandyism and really Black style, Black fashion in America. How do you see that reaching all the way into this moment in fashion?
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala is tonight, and it's already historic. Here's why.
Andre Leontali, for those who don't know, worked at Vogue from 1983 to 2013 and eventually became an editor at large for the magazine.
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala is tonight, and it's already historic. Here's why.
It's called Superfine, tailoring black style, and it's a celebration of the black dandy. You might already know what a black dandy is, but if you don't, here's a picture.
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala is tonight, and it's already historic. Here's why.
And Monica L. Miller talks about this, how the foundation of dandyism is less about following trends and more about self-education, having a deeper knowledge of styles and textiles and culture.
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala is tonight, and it's already historic. Here's why.
And Miller also writes, better clothing allowed them to pass more easily for free men and to enter the market as consumers, meaning that enslaved people could sell or trade their clothing, using it like financial currency or social currency. And that's something that still exists. It's still a part of the language of how Black people dress today.
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The Met Gala is tonight, and it's already historic. Here's why.
And it's very literally the kind of thing that Andre Leon Talley was talking about in both of his memoirs, like using this self-education, this refinement and style of dress as a means of accessing a different life than the one that he was born into.
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The Met Gala is tonight, and it's already historic. Here's why.
You know, bringing things back to the present, this exhibition is coming at a time when Black men have reached some of the highest levels in the fashion world. You know, I think about the legacy of the late Virgil Abloh and Pharrell Williams, you know, who has brought, I mean, he's something of a Black dandy himself and has brought that Black dandyism styling back.
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The Met Gala is tonight, and it's already historic. Here's why.
to a new generation, you know, as, you know, the head of Louis Vuitton and Louis Vuitton also co-sponsored this event. I know my answer for this question, but do you think the fashion world has embraced black men truly? Like, is it a full embrace, a hug or handshake?
It's Been a Minute
The Met Gala is tonight, and it's already historic. Here's why.
All right. One last question for y'all. Just for fun. Who do you hope shows up at the Met Gala? And who do you hope stays home? Just to be a little shady. Just to be a little shady. That is hilarious.
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Want to be less lonely? Here are five tips.
That was a conversation between Dr. Jeremy Noble and NPR's Alison Aubrey for Life Kit. I highly recommend checking out the show. They have an episode on how to make friends as an adult that really hit home after all these convos about loneliness. You can find those at npr.org slash life kit. This episode of Life Kit was hosted by Marielle Segarra.
It's Been a Minute
Want to be less lonely? Here are five tips.
It was edited by Megan Cain, Carmel Roth, and Jane Greenhalgh. Engineering support came from Joshua Newell, Rebecca Brown, and Phil Edfors. Additional production editing was done by Liam McBain and Jasmine Romero. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
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Want to be less lonely? Here are five tips.
Thanks to Corinne Averill, Rick Klebanow, and Lisa Stewart for sharing with us. Now, my friends at NPR's Life Kit did some really incredible reporting about how to get out of loneliness too. I wanted to share it with you because I think their advice lines up with a lot of what you all were sharing with me. Here's Mariel Sagara, host of Life Kit.
It's Been a Minute
Want to be less lonely? Here are five tips.
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. Do you relate? Well, you may be lonely, but you're not alone. One third of Americans report feeling lonely at least once a week. And 16% of Americans report feeling lonely all or most of the time.
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Want to be less lonely? Here are five tips.
A lot of attention is being paid to loneliness right now. After the former American Surgeon General declared a loneliness epidemic, news organizations from The New York Times to The Atlantic to NPR jumped to cover it. And it's hard to say definitively if loneliness has gotten worse. But what we do know is that a significant amount of people are feeling it.
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Want to be less lonely? Here are five tips.
And I know a lot of you have been feeling lonely too. That's because so many of you wrote to me sharing your own stories about loneliness and how you got out of it. It was really incredible how many of you responded. It really showed, I guess, how not alone we all are in our loneliness and that there's no one way to reconnect with people. Here's what just a few of you said.
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Books vs. Brain Rot: why it's so hard to read
So I think that, you know, not holding ourselves to some standard of being, you know, I'm a machine that has to finish 500 pages by, you know, such and such date, because then it becomes just another chore slash it becomes just another kind of gamified or kind of optimized activity, you know, at a time when we are surrounded by sort of pulls to optimize every part of our lives.
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Books vs. Brain Rot: why it's so hard to read
The thing that gets you out of fatigue is not someone, you know, cracking a whip at you and being like, we'll read more peon. Like, well, no. You can have marathon reading and enjoy that and tear through books. Or you can just be like, you know what? I'm spending this year with...
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Books vs. Brain Rot: why it's so hard to read
To jump right in, according to a Gallup survey from 2022, Americans are reading fewer books per year than ever before. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics Time Use Survey, the time people spend reading has dropped steadily over the past 20 years. What do you think is behind this decline? What are the main factors here?
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Books vs. Brain Rot: why it's so hard to read
The first chapter of War and Peace, and that's what I'm doing, and I'm not holding myself to more than that, and I'm just going to really live in that world. The word, I think it was you that used it, Brittany, was intentional. The care that we can put into reading intentionally will ultimately help
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Books vs. Brain Rot: why it's so hard to read
do what I think all of us are looking for when we're trying to recover from fatigue, which is to renew ourselves to the world, you know, to feel like, oh, I don't feel like a sack of potatoes or like a desiccated corpse of myself. I actually feel and believe and think things again.
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Books vs. Brain Rot: why it's so hard to read
My imagination is working again because, you know, in the face of all of the kind of addictive algorithms, et cetera, sometimes I think of readers as like, conservationists in which the endangered habitat we're thinking about is our imaginations.
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Books vs. Brain Rot: why it's so hard to read
My gosh, Elaine, Abdullah, this has been such a great conversation. You all have me so reinvigorated and so hyped up to read. Like, thank you so much.
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Books vs. Brain Rot: why it's so hard to read
Thank you so much for having us. That was Elaine Castillo, author of the book How to Read Now, and Abdullah Shihibar, research associate at the People, Place, and Health Collective at Brown University. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Liam McBain. Barton Girdwood. This episode was edited by Jasmine Romero. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams.
It's Been a Minute
Books vs. Brain Rot: why it's so hard to read
Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
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Books vs. Brain Rot: why it's so hard to read
I think sometimes the issue I have with the way that the supposed decline in reading is framed is that massive corporations have essentially captured the capacities in us for reading, which is to say our attention, our capacity for critical thinking, imaginative thinking, all of which are things that are baked into us, into our code, into our evolutionary processes.
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Books vs. Brain Rot: why it's so hard to read
you know, selves the desire to information forage, but that innate code in us has essentially been captured. And maybe I'm using this metaphor because I'm currently on a sobriety journey, but a lot of it is really about thinking of that type of doom scrolling and the algorithms that go with it as essentially putting some of us in a kind of
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Books vs. Brain Rot: why it's so hard to read
Active addiction, because it offers a kind of momentary dopamine hit or momentary pleasure, essentially for the enrichment of the wealthiest people in the world. I'm saying this, hopefully it's coming across with compassion, because I'm also speaking about myself. Massive corporations have... eaten into the time that might otherwise be spent reading.
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Books vs. Brain Rot: why it's so hard to read
But at the same time, they replace reading, but they're not replacing the restorative aspects, the way that it works on our brain, reading books versus doom scrolling. So it's an illusory kind of replacement of that impulse in us.
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Books vs. Brain Rot: why it's so hard to read
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. In the words of RuPaul, Reading is what? Fundamental. But are we losing our grasp on it? Our ability to read books, or our lack thereof, has been in the zeitgeist lately.
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Books vs. Brain Rot: why it's so hard to read
That's really interesting. I 100% understand. To open up about myself a little bit, I am 37. I had a television, cable television with a remote in my bedroom from age six to like, I don't know, maybe through the first two years of college. Then after that, I have never had television in my bedroom ever again.
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Books vs. Brain Rot: why it's so hard to read
I grew up watching a ton of TV, but I maintained a reading habit really strong, no matter what was happening with me having a television in my bedroom. My reading got troubled once I got a smartphone, and then it really went downhill once I got TikTok. For me, the phone is the thing. But Abdullah, I'm wondering, why is it harder to read than to watch TV or to scroll on social media brain-wise?
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Books vs. Brain Rot: why it's so hard to read
Yeah, I mean, screen time is an issue that people of all ages face, but I hear it brought up constantly in regards to kids and young people. Abdullah, you said something really interesting to our producer Liam in your pre-interview about how you see less of an emphasis on reading, even for young people. Is the culture around reading different now?
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Books vs. Brain Rot: why it's so hard to read
There's been some viral reporting on college kids struggling to finish longer texts. I've seen multiple posts on X where adults are bemoaning their waning attention spans and asking for advice on how to read books again. I mean, you know we're cooked when Oxford's 2024 word of the year was brain rot. I'll say for myself, I've been there.
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Books vs. Brain Rot: why it's so hard to read
but also even thinking about how adults interact with reading now. I think it's something you have to be a little bit more intentional about now because it's so much easier to indulge in other kinds of media intake. To me, reading also kind of feels more like niche hobby. Like there are strong communities of people who read a lot who are on social media, on BookTok or BookTube.
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Books vs. Brain Rot: why it's so hard to read
But our producer Liam mentioned that he thinks reading might be going the way of sewing, like something that used to be a more widely utilized skill, but is becoming kind of a niche pastime.
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Books vs. Brain Rot: why it's so hard to read
I would prefer reading not to become a niche activity. I'd prefer... social media and apps to become like smoking or sort of repetitive head injury that they come with certain general warnings. I appreciate the ambition.
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Books vs. Brain Rot: why it's so hard to read
So when AI did the reading for them, their comprehension went down. And when AI did the writing for them, comprehension went down even more.
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Books vs. Brain Rot: why it's so hard to read
I love to read, but I feel like I've really had to work to be able to enjoy books like I used to. And the data says the same thing. Polls from Gallup and the Bureau of Labor Statistics show that Americans are spending less time reading than ever. So I wanted to know, why is that?
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Books vs. Brain Rot: why it's so hard to read
You know, it's interesting you bring up AI. One of the things about AI that has been confounding to me are the types of tasks that are being used as selling points to consumers. When I think about problems that humankind needs help with, I don't know if reading is at the top of my list.
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Books vs. Brain Rot: why it's so hard to read
The thing that scares me the most around AI and how we use it is that we ourselves are prepared to abdicate our own humanity and our capacity to read, to contemplate, to wrestle with difficult concepts, to imagine our lives and the lives of others, to read the terms and conditions of our own lives, essentially.
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Books vs. Brain Rot: why it's so hard to read
Because it is work to think critically, to practice media literacy, and to do the kinds of things that ultimately build a soul. But I think for centuries and centuries, literacy has been a thing viewed as hostile by people in power, right? That there's a capacity for defiance that's built into reading. Why? Because you're able to critically understand...
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Books vs. Brain Rot: why it's so hard to read
the world around you, the world in which you find yourself, because you're able to imagine other people's lives. And if you're able to imagine other people's lives, you're also less likely to dehumanize those lives because you've built the capacity in yourself to imagine them.
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Books vs. Brain Rot: why it's so hard to read
And if you've built the capacity in yourself to imagine other people's lives, that means you've also built the capacity in yourself to imagine your own life differently. doing the kind of work that restores you to being able to imagine the world differently is defiant.
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Books vs. Brain Rot: why it's so hard to read
There's so many good observations you just shared. To talk more about what you mentioned with literacy and literacy education, I recently learned that around half of American adults read below a sixth grade level, and 21% of US adults are illiterate or functionally illiterate. So, you know, This is not new.
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Books vs. Brain Rot: why it's so hard to read
And it's not always an issue of whether or not people want to read, but rather, if they can at all. And to say more about this, only about a third of illiterate American adults were born elsewhere. That's not a comment about literacy rates elsewhere. But to point out that the majority of illiterate American adults ostensibly had some kind of interaction with the American school system.
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Books vs. Brain Rot: why it's so hard to read
So how is the school system failing so many people?
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Books vs. Brain Rot: why it's so hard to read
The desire to information forage. That innate code in us has essentially been captured.
It's Been a Minute
Books vs. Brain Rot: why it's so hard to read
Coming up, sure, reading is fun, but can it literally extend your life?
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Books vs. Brain Rot: why it's so hard to read
What do we as people miss out on when people stop reading books?
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Books vs. Brain Rot: why it's so hard to read
It's incredibly pleasurable and innately fun. to us to be in intimacy and imagine lives that aren't our own. And it's also such a gift to be able to spend time, even when we're in isolation, with the shape of another person's mind. Over the summer, I read for the first time The Lord of the Rings. I'd never read that series ever. I'm now like a Tolkien stan.
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Books vs. Brain Rot: why it's so hard to read
And really annoying people around me because I'm like, have you heard of this up and coming writer, J.R.R. Tolkien? So then I went down a rabbit hole of reading his essays. And there's a really beautiful essay that he's written called On Fairy Stories.
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Books vs. Brain Rot: why it's so hard to read
But he talks about the joy of the happy ending and that the point of the fairy story or what he calls eucatastrophe, which is to say sudden and miraculous grace, you know, happy ending, consolation. which is contrasted to die catastrophe, sorrow, failure, poverty, loss. And die catastrophe are the things that people are wanting to escape from. I mean, Tolkien himself was in the First World War.
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Books vs. Brain Rot: why it's so hard to read
That's Elaine Castillo, author of the book, How to Read Now. Hello, thank you for having me. I'm also joined by Abdullah Shihipar, research associate at the People, Place and Health Collective at Brown University. I'm happy to be here. Thanks so much. They are here to walk me through the battle for our brains, how reading helps develop our souls, and what we can do to get our reading grooves back.
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Books vs. Brain Rot: why it's so hard to read
So the happy ending, or eucatastrophe, as he puts it, is a sudden and miraculous grace never counted on to recur. And it doesn't deny the existence of... you know, sorrow, failure, absolute loss. But what it does deny is universal final defeat. What it offers us is a glimpse, a fleeting glimpse of joy, joy beyond the walls of the world, as poignant as grief.
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Books vs. Brain Rot: why it's so hard to read
That is what we get when we read and when we truly connect with stories that we know will matter to us and that we know will change us. We get that glimpse of joy beyond the walls of the world or beyond the walls of the smartphone or whatever the walls of the contemporary world.
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Books vs. Brain Rot: why it's so hard to read
I also wonder about like the health benefits of reading. Like why might reading be good for us as like human beings?
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Books vs. Brain Rot: why it's so hard to read
Part of the reason why people have been talking so much about reading, I think, also is because it's top of the year. You know what I mean? Everyone's feeling a little bit like a sack of potatoes. So I'm not surprised that people are thinking a lot about reading now. But for people who want to get back into reading, how can they do it?
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Books vs. Brain Rot: why it's so hard to read
Well, I completely agree. Each book is its own kind of individual time dilator, right? And there are some books that you're like, I'm flying through this. I'm finishing it yesterday. And there are some books that want you to spend... hours and hours or days on one page.
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Canada hates us, but it's not all Trump's fault.
We're going to keep it like nice and low stakes with the bragging rights. Are y'all ready?
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Canada hates us, but it's not all Trump's fault.
All right. So this game's theme is famously Canadian. So we're going to learn some fun facts about some famous Canadians. So first question. The comedian Nathan Fielder is currently airing his incredible show, The Rehearsal on HBO, where he's spending the network's money.
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Canada hates us, but it's not all Trump's fault.
to make a giant replica of Terminal D at George Bush Airport, to make a fake singing competition show, and to turn himself into a baby, among other things. But he started in a high school improv troupe with another famous Canadian. Was it A, Ryan Gosling, B, Seth Rogen, or C, Dan Levy?
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Canada hates us, but it's not all Trump's fault.
I think it's Seth Rogen. All right. Well, technically, you are both correct. It is B, Seth Rogen. But John's going to get the point because he was first. So go, John.
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Canada hates us, but it's not all Trump's fault.
Satya, how much do you find Americans know about Canada?
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Canada hates us, but it's not all Trump's fault.
But yes, the answer is B, Seth Rogen. And Nathan Fielder says that they won their Provincial Improv Championship. So go off, British Columbia. All right. Next question. Next famous Canadian. Keanu Reeves is a household name, at least in my household. The John Wick movies are probably, to me, as a person who doesn't really like action movies, the most perfect action movies ever made.
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Canada hates us, but it's not all Trump's fault.
But Keanu almost changed his name when he was starting his career because his manager wanted him to. What did he almost change his name to? Ah!
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Canada hates us, but it's not all Trump's fault.
You know, I think you're going to have to lie down such because the answer is C. Chuck Spadina. He says he floated the name to his agents and they hated it and suggested Templeton Page Taylor. And they hated that even more. So they let him keep Keanu.
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Canada hates us, but it's not all Trump's fault.
Well, I'm glad he went with Keanu because I don't know if Chuck Spadina would have made it. All right. All right. Last question. Last famous Canadians. Which of these Canadian musicians didn't like the song they are arguably most known for? A. Alanis Morissette with Ironic. B, Celine Dion with My Heart Will Go On. Or C, Shania Twain with Man, I Feel Like a Woman.
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Canada hates us, but it's not all Trump's fault.
Oh, I'm going to have to give up my passport after this.
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Canada hates us, but it's not all Trump's fault.
I think it's A. Sachi, you were correct. It's Celine Dion, My Heart Will Go On. She said, when I recorded it, I didn't think about the movie. I didn't think about radio. I thought, sing the song, then get the heck out of there. Which, I mean, if I had heard that in fifth grade when I sang that with two other girls for our talent show, I would have been heartbroken.
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Canada hates us, but it's not all Trump's fault.
But I respect it, Celine. I respect it, Celine. All right. Well, that's it for But Did You Know for this week. Congratulations to John on your win. John, Sachi, thank you both so much for joining me today. This was so much fun. That was great. Thank you.
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Canada hates us, but it's not all Trump's fault.
That was John Parmenter, Associate Professor of History at Cornell and Sachi Cole, Senior Writer at Slate. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Liam McBain. This episode was edited by Nina Potok. Our supervising producer is Barton Girdwood. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right.
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Canada hates us, but it's not all Trump's fault.
That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
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Canada hates us, but it's not all Trump's fault.
We don't even know the inside, like, insulting jokes. That's a good one. Okay, okay, I agree. I think we could stand to learn a bit more. Maybe especially now that tensions between our nations have risen. President Trump raised eyebrows and some hackles when he started floating the idea of annexing Canada to make it our 51st state.
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Canada hates us, but it's not all Trump's fault.
Because Canada and the United States, that would really be something. You get rid of that artificially drawn line and you take a look at what that looks like.
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Canada hates us, but it's not all Trump's fault.
The stereotype is that Canadians are kind, but they, by and large, did not take kindly to this. As of April, two-thirds of Canadians considered the U.S. to be unfriendly or an enemy, and 61% say they have started boycotting American companies. And pretty shockingly, Trump's comments have been attributed to the win of the Liberal prime minister candidate Mark Carney in their recent election.
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Canada hates us, but it's not all Trump's fault.
a total turnaround from a 27-point Conservative lead in the polls. Commentators say Canadians didn't want a Conservative who might be sympathetic to Trump. That's what's most interesting to me, is that Canadian dislike and distrust of the U.S. is not new. Canadian views on the U.S. have trended negatively for decades. From a high of 81% of Canadians holding favorable views of the U.S.
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Canada hates us, but it's not all Trump's fault.
under Clinton in the 90s, that number has dropped to only 24% favorable as of March. Meanwhile, 87% of Americans view Canada favorably. There's a huge mismatch there. And I want to know, what's behind these decades of resentment? How does culture play into it? And what does it mean for our politics that our nations have fundamentally different ideas about our relationship to one another?
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Canada hates us, but it's not all Trump's fault.
Saatchi, John, why do you think the U.S. started falling out of favor with Canadians decades ago?
It's Been a Minute
Canada hates us, but it's not all Trump's fault.
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. What's the most underrated Canadian thing that you think that the U.S. should adopt?
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Canada hates us, but it's not all Trump's fault.
Oh, and we let it go on for so long.
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Canada hates us, but it's not all Trump's fault.
Yeah, less than two months, I read. And here we got people who appear to be warming up. They are.
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Canada hates us, but it's not all Trump's fault.
Okay, so there's a lot of political theater. That is a very, very, very fair point. What do you think, John? Why do you think the U.S. started falling out of favor with Canadians so long ago?
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Canada hates us, but it's not all Trump's fault.
There's a whole commentary on the border to Mexico in that as well. There's a whole commentary in there, yeah.
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Canada hates us, but it's not all Trump's fault.
That continues to be repeated occasionally by... Oh, and there's like an implication then that like the border is weak and we've got to tighten it up. Yeah.
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Canada hates us, but it's not all Trump's fault.
So I really appreciate that perspective on how Canada has been perhaps politically frustrated with the United States for quite some time. But I wonder how is the U.S. positioned in Canadian culture?
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Canada hates us, but it's not all Trump's fault.
I mean, what you're talking about really reflects what I think of as America's sort of like main character syndrome. We absolutely have main character syndrome. It reminds me of the scene in Mad Men where Ginsburg is like, you know, I feel bad for you to Don Draper. And Don Draper is like, I don't think about you at all.
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Canada hates us, but it's not all Trump's fault.
In the U.S., I feel like when a lot of Americans think about Canada, if they think about Canada, you know, Canada is our polite neighbor, maybe our little sibling, similar to what you just said, Sachi. And we poke fun at them a little, but don't really think of them as like very fundamentally different culturally from ourselves.
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Canada hates us, but it's not all Trump's fault.
Like they're like us, but nicer, which I gather is not the prevailing view in Canada. I hear you all define yourselves against us. Does that track?
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Canada hates us, but it's not all Trump's fault.
Wow. I have to say, I mean, what I described is the common, I think, the common American attitude about Canada. Being from Michigan, I have a different relationship. I am from a border state with Canada and I'm from the Detroit area.
It's Been a Minute
Canada hates us, but it's not all Trump's fault.
Well, we got a couple of Canadians here today. John Parmenter, Associate Professor of History at Cornell, and Sachi Kuhl, Senior Writer at Slate. Welcome to It's Been a Minute.
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Canada hates us, but it's not all Trump's fault.
So like, I can't like see Canada from my house, but like from walking distance from my parents' house, I can see the Ambassador Bridge, which takes you from Detroit to Windsor.
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Canada hates us, but it's not all Trump's fault.
Okay, that makes me feel so good because I have been calling myself like culturally Canadian. For so long.
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Canada hates us, but it's not all Trump's fault.
I mean, there's another piece of this also, too, which is like, you know, the fact that many people from Canada moved to the U.S. Y'all are two of them. So I'll mention that. Yes, that's right. 70% more people came here that year than even in 2012. And I know that part of that has to do with a cost of living crisis happening in Canada.
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Canada hates us, but it's not all Trump's fault.
Cost of living was the top story of the year for 70% of Canadians in 2024. And almost half of Canadians say price increases greatly affect their ability to make ends meet. So even as there are efforts to protect Canada from the U.S., many are leaving to come here. And then I could see how that might create a feedback loop, right?
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Canada hates us, but it's not all Trump's fault.
Like a lot of nationalism is built on the back of the idea of a shared culture, a shared future. If there isn't, though, as you both say, a coherent national identity and more people are looking for a future elsewhere, I could see that as kind of a crisis of nationalism for Canada that maybe, you know, this Trump stuff is helping to shore up.
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Canada hates us, but it's not all Trump's fault.
Thanks. Okay, so you're both from Canada and live in the U.S. now. How much do you find Americans know about Canada compared to how much Canadians know about the U.S.?
It's Been a Minute
Canada hates us, but it's not all Trump's fault.
So ultimately, our nations are very intertwined. You know, Canada is the U.S. 's largest export market, but we also get a lot of our lumber and our energy from you all. What does it mean that our nations have fundamentally different ideas about how we relate to one another?
It's Been a Minute
Canada hates us, but it's not all Trump's fault.
And how does that impact all of the imports and exports, the bits of culture and all the different people that we share across our borders?
It's Been a Minute
Canada hates us, but it's not all Trump's fault.
Oh, my gosh. Well, we will see what happens. But in the meantime, John, Sachi, I have learned so much here. Thank you both so much. Thanks. Thanks for having us.
It's Been a Minute
Canada hates us, but it's not all Trump's fault.
Yeah. There's no money on the line. This is public. That's worse.
It's Been a Minute
Canada hates us, but it's not all Trump's fault.
We like to say bragging rights, which I think is a few levels in seriousness below dignity. But, you know, whatever motivates.
It's Been a Minute
Canada hates us, but it's not all Trump's fault.
It's very different from the United States.
It's Been a Minute
Canada hates us, but it's not all Trump's fault.
All right, all right. We're going to play a little game I like to call, but did you know? Here's how it works. I'm going to share some trivia about a very relevant topic. But don't worry, it's all multiple choice. And the first one to blurt out the right answer gets a point. Person with the most points wins. And their prize is bragging rights, not dignity.
It's Been a Minute
Did DEI D.I.E.? Welcome to a new kind of 'civil rights' era
Dozens of our favorite artists will be dressed up to the nines, perhaps in a tube top or in a navy blue tuxedo. I don't know. Each hoping to go home with one of those little medal trophies that signify a win. Which of these medals is not used in the process of creating a Grammy trophy? Look, y'all both snapped to attention when I asked this question.
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Did DEI D.I.E.? Welcome to a new kind of 'civil rights' era
Which of these metals is not used in the process of creating a Grammy trophy? A, brass. B, zinc. Or C, copper. B, zinc. What say you, Wesley?
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Did DEI D.I.E.? Welcome to a new kind of 'civil rights' era
Okay. Well, y'all were both wrong. Sorry. The answer is brass. The awards are made from a special zinc alloy called gramium. Oh. Okay. I know. And before it gets plated with 24 karat gold, they get plated with copper. So there you go. Wow. They just don't have any brass in them. All right. Question number two. We all love a one-hit wonder. I still love me some Lubega, okay?
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Did DEI D.I.E.? Welcome to a new kind of 'civil rights' era
But there is nothing like a repeat winner. Of these divas, who has the most Grammy wins? Is it A, Mariah Carey, B, Whitney Houston, or C, Leontine Price? I'm going Mariah. Okay. Wesley says Mariah. What do you say, Professor Johnson?
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Did DEI D.I.E.? Welcome to a new kind of 'civil rights' era
Is this a protest? Might be. Okay. All right. Well, the answer is C, Leontine Price, the world-renowned opera singer who is still with us, by the way, won a whopping 13 Grammys throughout her career. Fun fact, Leontine and Whitney are first cousins once removed. So you could say the voice runs through the family. That whole family. You know, Dionne Warwick's in that family, too.
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Did DEI D.I.E.? Welcome to a new kind of 'civil rights' era
Hello, sissy Whitney. I get chills when I think about it.
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Did DEI D.I.E.? Welcome to a new kind of 'civil rights' era
All right. Well, to recap the score, Wesley, you are at zero points. And Professor Johnson, you are also tied for zero points. All right. So without further ado, the final, technically tie-breaking question. The Grammys don't just award the best singers. They also award spoken word performances. In 1971, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was posthumously awarded a Grammy for which of these speeches?
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Did DEI D.I.E.? Welcome to a new kind of 'civil rights' era
That tape is of the president's press briefing this week after the tragic plane crash in D.C.
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Did DEI D.I.E.? Welcome to a new kind of 'civil rights' era
A, I have a dream. B, why I oppose the war in Vietnam. Or C, I've been to the mountaintop.
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Did DEI D.I.E.? Welcome to a new kind of 'civil rights' era
So Professor Johnson says A. Wesley, what say you?
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Did DEI D.I.E.? Welcome to a new kind of 'civil rights' era
Well, I have to say, this might be a first in the playing of this game. You both were wrong again.
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Did DEI D.I.E.? Welcome to a new kind of 'civil rights' era
Sorry. The answer is actually why I oppose the war in Vietnam. We have little faith. I know. Listen. I know. Shocked as I was as well. I could not believe that he was awarded a Grammy for that. But... I have to say, I'll say, though, this is actually maybe one of the only times we've ever had a tie on the show. Love it. So you're both winners. How about that? There we go. There we go.
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Did DEI D.I.E.? Welcome to a new kind of 'civil rights' era
Which the president speculated was the fault of programs aimed at diversity, equity, and inclusion. DEI, for short. That's why I'm trying to figure out how you can come to the conclusion right now that diversity had something to do with this crash.
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Did DEI D.I.E.? Welcome to a new kind of 'civil rights' era
And that's the best lesson.
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Did DEI D.I.E.? Welcome to a new kind of 'civil rights' era
That's an educator right there. I was going to say. All right. Well, that's it for. But did you know for this week, congratulations to both Professor Johnson and Wesley for on your win. And Wesley, Professor Johnson, thank you both so much for joining me today. Of course. Thank you.
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Did DEI D.I.E.? Welcome to a new kind of 'civil rights' era
That was Columbia Law professor Olatunde Johnson and Pulitzer Prize winning journalist Wesley Lowery. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Corey Antonio Rose. Barton Girdwood. This episode was edited by Jasmine Romero. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR.
It's Been a Minute
Did DEI D.I.E.? Welcome to a new kind of 'civil rights' era
I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
Did DEI D.I.E.? Welcome to a new kind of 'civil rights' era
And on his very first day in office, President Trump signed an executive order aimed at, to quote him, ending radical and wasteful government DEI programs and preferencing. Basically ending DEI programs within the federal government. In short, Trump wants DEI to D-I-E. But the dismantling of DEI goes beyond the federal government.
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Did DEI D.I.E.? Welcome to a new kind of 'civil rights' era
We're also seeing private companies voluntarily dismantle their own DEI programs. In recent months, we've seen rollbacks from Amazon, Walmart, Target, and even McDonald's, home of the McDouble. Part of why might have to do with President Trump's pick to lead the Department of Justice's Civil Rights Division, Harmeet Dhillon.
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Did DEI D.I.E.? Welcome to a new kind of 'civil rights' era
Trump specifically praised Dillon's previous work, quote, suing corporations who use woke policies to discriminate against their workers. Now, DEI policies have generally been used to promote the consideration of underrepresented groups, like members of the disabled and LGBTQ plus communities, women and people of color in hiring.
It's Been a Minute
Did DEI D.I.E.? Welcome to a new kind of 'civil rights' era
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. OK, y'all, this week, we are all going to be connecting the dots between the DOJ, a McDouble and your civil rights. I know. I know. How are all of these things connected?
It's Been a Minute
Did DEI D.I.E.? Welcome to a new kind of 'civil rights' era
But now some of these same policies are being labeled as discriminatory. If this becomes the focus of the DOJ's civil rights division, it begs the question, is the definition of civil rights changing? But first, Professor Johnson, Wesley, what was your reaction to seeing private companies roll back their DEI initiatives?
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Did DEI D.I.E.? Welcome to a new kind of 'civil rights' era
Well, we are going to find out with Columbia law professor Alatunde Johnson and Pulitzer Prize winning journalist Wesley Lowery. Welcome to It's Been a Minute. Thank you. Thank you for having us. It's been a minute. You know what? Wesleyan has been a minute. But I'm happy to have you on this show. If you could start a podcast with any civil rights hero, who would it be and why?
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Did DEI D.I.E.? Welcome to a new kind of 'civil rights' era
Yeah, one of the things we discussed on this show last year, Was the way that the term DEI came up in the wake of the Francis Scott Key Bridge collapse in Maryland, where the Baltimore mayor, a younger kind of stylish black man, you know, came in and did press conference, you know, and then suddenly the terminology came up that he was the DEI mayor again.
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Did DEI D.I.E.? Welcome to a new kind of 'civil rights' era
That felt like a big turning point in terms of, oh, OK, this is now thought of perhaps by some people as a pejorative. Now, some of these companies that have kicked these policies have cited the Supreme Court's decision on affirmative action back in 2023 as justification for rolling back these initiatives.
It's Been a Minute
Did DEI D.I.E.? Welcome to a new kind of 'civil rights' era
Professor Johnson, how was that 2023 decision a big stepping stone in this perhaps more conservative take on the Civil Rights Act?
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Did DEI D.I.E.? Welcome to a new kind of 'civil rights' era
Hmm. Hmm. There's the legal angle, which you just discussed. And there also is the cultural angle, which is how people are feeling about this legally somewhat vague term of diversity, equity and inclusion. You know, in thinking about the Civil Rights Division, Wesley, I know you have covered race and justice across different presidential administrations.
It's Been a Minute
Did DEI D.I.E.? Welcome to a new kind of 'civil rights' era
How much of this is kind of at the whim of or decided by the administration in power?
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Did DEI D.I.E.? Welcome to a new kind of 'civil rights' era
So taking all this in, taking all of this in, how do you see this affecting workers? While the federal workers are almost certainly going to be laid off, how might this affect people already working at some of these private companies that are rolling back their DEI initiatives or even people who are seeking jobs at companies like this?
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Did DEI D.I.E.? Welcome to a new kind of 'civil rights' era
Overall, what are the consequences of a conservative approach to civil rights on all of us?
It's Been a Minute
Did DEI D.I.E.? Welcome to a new kind of 'civil rights' era
I love that. I love that. Wesley, what about you?
It's Been a Minute
Did DEI D.I.E.? Welcome to a new kind of 'civil rights' era
I wonder, what do you think has led the Trump administration and other conservatives to believe that DEI is, you know, quote, preferencing certain people as opposed to addressing like historic discrimination? Yeah.
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Did DEI D.I.E.? Welcome to a new kind of 'civil rights' era
Yeah. And if you don't get enough, then that's the end of you, your life, your family.
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Did DEI D.I.E.? Welcome to a new kind of 'civil rights' era
You know, one of the things I keep thinking about with this is how race plays into these decisions and into what people even just culturally believe about these programs and initiatives. You know, as we discussed, the point of DEI programs has traditionally been to, you know, bolster representation for underrepresented groups within the workplace.
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Did DEI D.I.E.? Welcome to a new kind of 'civil rights' era
But, you know, we discussed on this show before how DEI has become, for some people, you know, a shorthand for racism. unqualified employees of color. But conversely, if we think of the affirmative action Supreme Court decision from 2023 as kind of like a precursor to all this, it's useful to remember that the group affirmative action disproportionately benefited was white women.
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Did DEI D.I.E.? Welcome to a new kind of 'civil rights' era
That is a pretty good one. That's a pretty good one. Those are both excellent choices. But I gotta say, I'll say regardless of whoever you would have as your co-host, I'm sure y'all would have a lot to cover on your show after the past couple of weeks. So let's get into it. President, you have today blamed the diversity element.
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Did DEI D.I.E.? Welcome to a new kind of 'civil rights' era
But Professor Johnson, Wesley, I have learned so much here. Thank you both so much.
It's Been a Minute
Did DEI D.I.E.? Welcome to a new kind of 'civil rights' era
Thank you. Thank you for having us. We'll be right back with a little game I like to call, but did you know? Stick around. All right, all right. We are going to play a little game I like to call, But Did You Know? Here's how it works. I'm going to share a story that's been making the headlines this week. And as I give you some background on this story, I'll also ask you trivia related to it.
It's Been a Minute
Did DEI D.I.E.? Welcome to a new kind of 'civil rights' era
But don't worry. It's all multiple choice. The first one to blurt out the right answer gets a point. The person with the most points wins. And their prize is bragging rights. Yeah. Are you all ready? Let's do it. Okay. To start, the 67th Annual Grammy Awards take place this Sunday in Los Angeles.
It's Been a Minute
Age gaps & wage gaps: unpacking our Belichick-Hudson obsession
And after coaching the New England Patriots for 24 years, it seems like he might be ready to settle down with his 24-year-old girlfriend, Jordan Hudson. According to Belichick, they met on a plane in 2021, but went public with their relationship in 2024.
It's Been a Minute
Age gaps & wage gaps: unpacking our Belichick-Hudson obsession
Now, since getting together, Hudson has taken an active role in managing Belichick's career, from fielding media requests to shutting down nosy interview questions.
It's Been a Minute
Age gaps & wage gaps: unpacking our Belichick-Hudson obsession
Not talking about this.
It's Been a Minute
Age gaps & wage gaps: unpacking our Belichick-Hudson obsession
But here's the thing. Hudson is 24. Belichick is 73. That's almost 50 years between them. And with Hudson making moves like trademarking Belichick's iconic catchphrases, some people have been questioning her intentions, asking who has the power in this relationship and wondering whether Belichick is safe, lucky, or something else entirely. But All right, let's get into it. Let's get into it.
It's Been a Minute
Age gaps & wage gaps: unpacking our Belichick-Hudson obsession
I mean, everybody's been talking about this. I wonder, Char, why is this relationship catching everyone's attention?
It's Been a Minute
Age gaps & wage gaps: unpacking our Belichick-Hudson obsession
I mean, many people speculate about this relationship, suggesting that Jordan is interested in Bill's wealth and power. You know, not necessarily his charm or good looks or magnetic personality. Even though Jordan herself calls Bill her twin flame, she's facing criticism for allegedly entering this relationship for personal gain.
It's Been a Minute
Age gaps & wage gaps: unpacking our Belichick-Hudson obsession
But we know that historically marrying for love was absolutely not the norm. That is a more recent development. People traditionally married to forge alliances and consolidate wealth. It wasn't until the Enlightenment in the 1700s that marrying for love started to become more and more acceptable in Western societies. So that leads me to this question.
It's Been a Minute
Age gaps & wage gaps: unpacking our Belichick-Hudson obsession
In this day and age, is it okay to marry or partner for reasons other than love?
It's Been a Minute
Age gaps & wage gaps: unpacking our Belichick-Hudson obsession
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. This week, we're connecting the dots between double standards, the 18th century enlightenment, and the National Football League. I know, I know. How are all of these things connected?
It's Been a Minute
Age gaps & wage gaps: unpacking our Belichick-Hudson obsession
Well, we're going to find out with arts and entertainment reporter Char Jassel and Vox senior correspondent Alex Abad-Santos. Char, Alex, welcome to It's Been a Minute.
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Age gaps & wage gaps: unpacking our Belichick-Hudson obsession
But I wonder, is she blazing a new path or walking a path that we've seen many women walk before? Yeah.
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Age gaps & wage gaps: unpacking our Belichick-Hudson obsession
So it's like this story is like, even though the story involves like a 70 something year old man who actually does have a lot of money. Mm-hmm.
It's Been a Minute
Age gaps & wage gaps: unpacking our Belichick-Hudson obsession
This is still, like, striking this cultural chord right now.
It's Been a Minute
Age gaps & wage gaps: unpacking our Belichick-Hudson obsession
Thanks for having us. Hey, Brittany. Okay, one teeny tiny little question before I continue on. What's your love language?
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Age gaps & wage gaps: unpacking our Belichick-Hudson obsession
You know, and to your point, I mean, even outside of Tradwife, there's also like an offshoot of that that's like stay-at-home girlfriend, which we can talk about the possible pitfalls of being a stay-at-home girlfriend another day.
It's Been a Minute
Age gaps & wage gaps: unpacking our Belichick-Hudson obsession
I mean, it seems like a nice life, but I tell you what, the state says you're not entitled to any part of it.
It's Been a Minute
Age gaps & wage gaps: unpacking our Belichick-Hudson obsession
And to your point, Alex, it is a nice fantasy. Trust me, when I get my attitude in the morning, I do think it would be nice to be a stay-at-home something.
It's Been a Minute
Age gaps & wage gaps: unpacking our Belichick-Hudson obsession
For years, we've seen the wives and girlfriends of the sports elite make their way into the spotlight, like Shawnee Henderson. Many of you may know her as Shawnee O'Neill, aka the basketball wife of basketball wives fame. Aisha Curry, who's got cookware and cookbooks and all kinds of products. I wonder, why do you think we keep coming back to this storyline? What is it about
It's Been a Minute
Age gaps & wage gaps: unpacking our Belichick-Hudson obsession
this Hudson-Belichick union that has people so up in arms if this kind of dynamic between, you know, the wag and the sports guy is something that we've seen time and time again.
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Age gaps & wage gaps: unpacking our Belichick-Hudson obsession
He's thought of as somebody who is like all knowing, all seeing, totally in control, running his team like the Navy.
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Age gaps & wage gaps: unpacking our Belichick-Hudson obsession
But I feel like we also can't talk about this without talking about the fact that most people in this country, 60% of people in this country, struggle to pay for basic expenses, right? And even if you don't struggle to pay for basic expenses, you're struggling to pay for some kind of expense. Overwhelmingly so. This is how Americans feel about lots of things, right? And...
It's Been a Minute
Age gaps & wage gaps: unpacking our Belichick-Hudson obsession
We're all feeling the pinch in some way or other of economic precarity. And if we look at like things from that kind of realistic perspective, more of us are living with like a Jordan Hudson hand of cards than with a Bill Belichick hand of cards. I think more of us, if I had to guess, this is not official polling from Pew or anything like that.
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Age gaps & wage gaps: unpacking our Belichick-Hudson obsession
I'd say probably if most people were offered the opportunity to be in a relationship with somebody who was worth tens or hundreds of millions of dollars for a little while, if it might help you get a leg up in life, I think a lot of people would say yes to that. because most of us ain't got money like that.
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Age gaps & wage gaps: unpacking our Belichick-Hudson obsession
They're both resources that the way our world works, you know, that each person might benefit from the other's wealth, let's say. It's like, in a way, expecting Jordan Hudson to be shy about her beauty youth charms is like expecting Bill Belichick to be shy about being Bill Belichick, expecting him to be shy about being rich.
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Age gaps & wage gaps: unpacking our Belichick-Hudson obsession
or experienced, or connected, or powerful, we wouldn't expect for a man to be shy or coy about those things. And so you raise a very interesting question, like, why do we expect that she should be shy about what she's bringing to the table? I wonder, what would it take for people to accept this relationship as legitimate, regardless of the motivations behind it?
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Age gaps & wage gaps: unpacking our Belichick-Hudson obsession
I'm inclined to agree with that. Well, oh my gosh. This week, speaking of love languages, we got a pair of star-crossed lovers to rival Romeo and Juliet themselves, baby. If you don't know NFL Titan Bill Belichick, think of him like the Audra McDonald of football coaches. Audra has the most Tony Awards for acting. He's got the most Super Bowl wins.
It's Been a Minute
Age gaps & wage gaps: unpacking our Belichick-Hudson obsession
No, no, no. I mean, you raise a very good point. Time heals all wounds, I guess. But what do you think, Alex? What do you think it would take for... for the public to see this relationship as legit?
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Age gaps & wage gaps: unpacking our Belichick-Hudson obsession
Char, Alex, I have learned so much here in this conversation. Thank you both so much.
It's Been a Minute
Age gaps & wage gaps: unpacking our Belichick-Hudson obsession
Thank you, Brittany. That was arts and entertainment reporter Char Jossel and Vox senior correspondent Alex Abad-Santos. And I'm going to put on my influencer hat for a second and ask you to please subscribe to this show on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you're listening. Click follow so you know the latest in culture while it's still hot.
It's Been a Minute
Age gaps & wage gaps: unpacking our Belichick-Hudson obsession
This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Corey Antonio Rose. This episode was edited by Nina Potok. Our supervising producer is Barton Girdwood. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right, that's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
Hey y'all, it's Brittany, and I hope you had a nice Thanksgiving or at least got to spend some time with friends and family. Before we start the show, I want to take a step back and talk about what makes It's Been a Minute and everything you hear from NPR possible. It's you.
It's Been a Minute
"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
You know, because you're looking for someone who is like you in education and kind of level of professionalism and career.
It's Been a Minute
"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
I wonder, ultimately, what are people really looking for when they are looking for a partner with financial stability? Like, what problem are they trying to solve for?
It's Been a Minute
"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
Right. That's all kind of tied into this like primal kind of subconscious, like what do I need to survive? And I think we're broadly all looking to get beyond that where we can really like be self-actualized and get beyond survival. Like what do we really want? And so I think it's like a partner is part of that story. But living in the world that we do, having...
It's Been a Minute
"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
Some amount of money and financial stability is also part of that story. So you can't separate what you're looking for in a partner from the cold hard cash you need to kind of make your life happen in the way you want it to. Still got to pay the bills.
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"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
You know, in my experience, specifically with money and getting together with my husband, when we met, my husband had an internship three days a week and I was a 365 party girl. And I was like, but we both recognized that we had like a similar drive and resilience. As our EP Jasmine said recently, sometimes you got to buy futures in someone. Yeah. I love that. Yeah.
It's Been a Minute
"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
She was like, you know, it sounds like you bought futures in your husband. I was like, girl, my husband was buying. He bought a lot of futures in me. That's great. I love that framing. A lot of people are like undervalued stocks. And if you see the potential, you could reap the reward.
It's Been a Minute
"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
You got your ROI, your return on investment.
It's Been a Minute
"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
Well, oh my gosh. Waylon, Rima, thank you so much. It was so great to have you both. This was so great.
It's Been a Minute
"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
This was a blast. Thank you.
It's Been a Minute
"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
That was Waylon Wong, one of the hosts of NPR's The Indicator, and Rima Reis, host of Marketplace's This Is Uncomfortable. Also, to all you listening, we want to hear from you. partner in finance? What do you think? Sound off in the comments, respond to our Spotify poll, or send us an email at IBAM at NPR.org. That's IBAM at NPR.org. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Liam McBain.
It's Been a Minute
"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
How do you react? I think that I would either go into a blind panic or if I had a little bit more presence of mind, I think I would deflect with a joke. I would say something like, I get paid in tote bags. And then I would just try to wrap things up ASAP and get out of there.
It's Been a Minute
"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
Barton Girdwood. Our executive producer is Jasmine Romero. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
Did you hear that? It's the sound of cuffing season, the time of year where the weather cools down and folks look for a warm body to cuddle up with. For you skeptics out there, yes, cuffing season is real. The data from a few different dating sites show an increase in activity from November through February. But we're getting into some of the less warm and fuzzy aspects of dating.
It's Been a Minute
"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
For the next couple of weeks on It's Been a Minute, we're kicking off cuffing season with some of the big questions and big debates about dating. This week, a lot of us have heard this one song on TikTok about looking for a partner.
It's Been a Minute
"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
I appreciate you unpacking the latest in culture with me every week, because from brands shying away from woke politics to why the same songs keep dominating the music charts, y'all know it doesn't happen by accident. So thank you so much if you already support this work through NPR Plus or by donating to your local station.
It's Been a Minute
"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
This song went super viral this year, and it is just kind of fun and silly, but maybe it speaks to a broader desire to find someone who's more than comfortable financially. Well, to that end, is it okay to ask about salary on a first date? We asked people on the street to hear what they had to say.
It's Been a Minute
"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
So clearly finance and romance is a contentious subject. So I am so excited to welcome Wei-Lin Wong, one of the hosts of NPR's The Indicator, and Rima Reis, host of Marketplace's This is Uncomfortable. Thank you. Thanks for having us. We're going to get into how to navigate money and dating and what we're really looking for from a man in finance.
It's Been a Minute
"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
So asking about salary in the first date, it's contentious. It would be a bit too much for me, but I don't know. Talking about salary is just one aspect of getting to know someone else's relationship to money. And so I wonder when and why should people talk about money in the dating process? And what kind of information do people need to know about prospective partners?
It's Been a Minute
"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
I think that it's the question of when is it appropriate is less to me a question of absolute timescales and more of a question of context and stages of a relationship. To me, if you're getting the sense that your finances and your lives might be entangled in a more substantive way beyond, oh, who's paying for this date or something. If it's getting serious, if you think you could
It's Been a Minute
"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
spend a lot of time with this person. Like you said, Brittany, it goes beyond salary, right? So kind of like, what are your feelings about debt and how much debt you hold, how much debt you're comfortable holding? You know, what are your... You just, I'm sorry, I had to back away from the microphone. Sorry, you got the vapors. I'm like, oh my God, I don't even like talking about that now.
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"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
But I mean, that's real, you know, like, ooh. That's a huge one. And, you know, what financial obligations might you have related to other people? Are you a caregiver? Do you anticipate being a caregiver? You know, what are the demands on your finances? And like these are all kind of clues you're gathering about like what kind of person is this and is the kind of person I want to be with.
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"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
Oh.
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"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
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It's Been a Minute
"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
Ooh, this is deep. Pause. Is there a BuzzFeed quiz I can take?
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"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
Okay, okay. I will be bookmarking that.
It's Been a Minute
"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
That is so interesting. Even just hearing each of those categories, I was like, oh yeah, I could probably slot myself or most people that I know into one of those four. I mean, there was a couple of them. I think there was something in each category that I was like, oh. Feeling a little attacked. I was like, am I being spied on?
It's Been a Minute
"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
Coming up, is dating up in class even possible? Stay with us. Okay, let's get into the looking for a man in finance of it all. It was this super viral song on TikTok.
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"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
Trust fund, six five, blue eyes, finance. It's catchy, it's catchy. But a lot of the people that we talked to on the street for this said that they might not ask on the first date, but they wanted to look for clues to see that people might make about the same, or hopefully, I think for some of the people we talked to, more than they do. Here's what a few of them said.
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"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
Okay, so you kind of do a little sleuthing, it sounds like, and try to keep it low-key.
It's Been a Minute
"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
It's a tax-deductible donation so you can feel good about it while you enjoy sponsor-free listening to this show. Join us at plus.npr.org. That's plus.npr.org. And that link is also in our episode show notes. And of course, you can always make a gift at donate.npr.org. Thank you so much. And now, let's get to some culture. Hello, hello.
It's Been a Minute
"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
That sounds like almost triangulating. Oh, yeah.
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"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
Like it was gauche to ask, but they still wanted to know that information. And online, you know, we see a lot of people on social media talking about hypergamy, the practice of dating up in class. What's going on here?
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"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
I saw one survey that says that 20% of millennial men and 21% of millennial women want a partner that makes more than them. So roughly the same amount of each group, but only 7% of Gen Z men and 31% of Gen Z women want a partner that makes more than them. What do you think is driving these generational changes?
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"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
And I think the economic precarity you talked about earlier plays into this, too, right? Where maybe the idea that many people are a hair's breadth away, like one medical emergency away from complete financial ruin. I don't know if that, you know, weighs more heavily on a younger generation, you know, There's this website, Investopedia, they define economic terms, very nice resource online.
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"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
And they recently did this thing where they calculated the cost of the American dream for 2023. So it's like, how much do you need to retire? How much does it cost to buy a new car? What does it cost to put on a wedding?
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"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
I'm wincing, like I'm bracing myself. I know, right?
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"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
Raised two children, put them through four-year college, homeownership, pets, an annual vacation and a funeral. They fold that cost into.
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"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
Yeah, the full life and cradle to grave. And so for 2023, that amount was $4.4 million is the price tag they came up with. And they said that this is $1 million more than most Americans make in a lifetime.
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"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
So it's like if we've set up these expectations, literally there's like no money to pay for it. So it's like, what are we all doing here? You know, I think that anxiety trickles down.
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"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
Yeah. All right. Waylon, Prima and I have so much more to get into. We're looking into whether or not it's really possible to date up in class. Stick around. I see a lot of this like hypergamy content online, right? You know, whether it's facetious or more serious, like what's the reality of hypergamy?
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"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
To me, it just seems like there wouldn't be enough super high earning people in this country to actually satisfy the dating demand out there for people who are looking for a partner who makes a lot of money.
It's Been a Minute
"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. Say you've been talking to someone on an app. You meet up on a date. It's going well. And then they ask you how much money you make.
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"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
I think that for the most part, people are finding partners within their own social class broadly. Economists would call this positive assortative mating. Like calls to like, you find someone who is kind of like you. So I think like you don't see a lot of marrying across classes.
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"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
You know, one of the most interesting things that I came across when I was preparing for this conversation was a book by two law professors, June Carbone and Naomi Kahn. It's called Marriage Markets, How Inequality is Remaking the American Family. And I know, let's sit with that for a little bit.
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"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
And it talked about how if you look at working class slash blue collar jobs, those have gotten really hollowed out in the U.S., right? If you think about manufacturing jobs, you think about the decline of unions, that makes men in this class less desirable as marriage prospects, right?
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"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
They also note that mass incarceration, unfortunately, has diminished the literal pool of men within the working class. And so in the working class, women outnumber the men. And they say that this dynamic is different at the top with high earners, where there's actually not as many highly educated professional women as there are men.
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"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
And so women can afford to be pickier in the highest income bracket.
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"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
Wait, so wait, women who are in the highest income bracket can afford to be pickier is what you're saying?
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"Is it OK to ask about salary on the first date?" How to marry romance and finance
Yeah, because there's not as many of them as there are men. And so they get their pick of the men. Wow. It's because of this positive assortative mating thing where, you know, it's like Don Draper. If you watch Mad Men, like the Don Drapers of the world used to marry their secretaries. He married Megan. Now someone like Don Draper is more likely to marry another high powered ad executive. Peggy.
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Is marriage worth it? Single women say no.
She's focusing here on heterosexual relationships and found that women are prioritizing other parts of life, like buying property, investing in their careers, and developing friendships because they're not finding what they're looking for in the dating pool. And the numbers back it up. Women are more educated, more liberal, and typically have a much lower opinion of single men than vice versa.
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Is marriage worth it? Single women say no.
And as a result, fewer and fewer women are choosing to march down the aisle. So what does it mean that men increasingly want to get married and women don't? And what consequences does this have beyond just having a bad date? So to start off, what does it mean that American women are hitting a breaking point and aren't all that pressed to get married anymore?
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Is marriage worth it? Single women say no.
Minda, I'll hear from you on this first.
It's Been a Minute
Is marriage worth it? Single women say no.
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. Okay, y'all, today you and I are connecting the dots between Steve Harvey, a.k.a. Something Old, the latest season of Love is Blind, a.k.a. Something New, credit cards, a.k.a. Something Borrowed, and women's disappointment, a.k.a.
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Is marriage worth it? Single women say no.
Yeah. Rachel, talk to us about your research.
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Is marriage worth it? Single women say no.
It's interesting that you bring up what young people are thinking about when it comes to dating and relationships. I mean, I think about some of the messages that I got as a young adult from, for instance, Steve Harvey. And look, I think Steve Harvey is very funny. I think he is the perfect host for Family Feud.
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Is marriage worth it? Single women say no.
But I don't know if he should have been giving dating advice in his book, Act Like a Lady, Think Like a Man. He was definitely a part of a chorus of voices, but I don't know if that was necessarily the best resource.
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Is marriage worth it? Single women say no.
Now, marriage has long been considered an ideal to aspire to, especially for women, as it was historically a pathway to economic security. Rachel, I wonder, how did we get here then where so many American women are like, eh, about marriage?
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Is marriage worth it? Single women say no.
I love hearing your reporting on this, the statistics and the data, and almost sociological breakdown of what's going on, because it's something that I've heard anecdotally from friends and loved ones for a long time now.
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Is marriage worth it? Single women say no.
Yeah. Part of the reason why, for many women, dating is just not working is because of this return of old school gender roles. Why are these old school gender roles making a resurgence in today's dating scene? And what's leading women to say, uh-uh? No, thank you.
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Is marriage worth it? Single women say no.
Something Blue. I know, I know. How are all of these things connected? Well, we are going to find out with Rachel Wolf. She's an economics reporter for The Wall Street Journal and author Minda Honey, who has written about power and relationships in Los Angeles Review of Books, The Washington Post, and in her memoir, The Heartbreak Years. Rachel, Minda, welcome to It's Been a Minute.
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Is marriage worth it? Single women say no.
That is a big, big, big reframe. I think that idea that men of our generation are perhaps the first to grow up in a world where it's not assumed that they will have that kind of financial upper hand is a really important reframe.
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Is marriage worth it? Single women say no.
It's like a whole value system. Exactly. Coming up... What have you learned is driving this political gap between men and women?
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Is marriage worth it? Single women say no.
I think for many people who are big reality TV fans like me, this came to a head in the most recent season of the Netflix show Love is Blind. On this season, there were several couples wherein the women and the men had serious foundational political differences with society. The men being much more conservative and subscribing to those old school gender roles, or at least wanting to.
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Is marriage worth it? Single women say no.
Thank you so much for having me. Thanks so much. So just really quick, what do you think? In our year of 2025, is marriage in or is it out?
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Is marriage worth it? Single women say no.
And the women being more on the liberal end of things. This culminated in, you know, people deciding not to marry each other when they finally got to their wedding decision day. And also a totally viral clip from one of the women who was on this season who decided to share the specifics of the differences that she had politically with her fiancé from the show.
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Is marriage worth it? Single women say no.
Okay, Amanda says in. What do you say, Rachel?
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Is marriage worth it? Single women say no.
Okay, see, this is what I love. Point, counterpoint. Well, that question is more and more something that American women are asking themselves. This past week, Rachel published a report in the Wall Street Journal titled American Women Are Giving Up on Marriage. And y'all, when I say I could not click that link fast enough.
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The WWE vs. the American education system
All right, I'll accept the cop out. I'll accept the cop out.
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The WWE vs. the American education system
Luckily, this isn't a battle at all. It's just a good old conversation about what could happen to our nation's education system if former WWE CEO and co-founder Linda McMahon is confirmed as the Secretary of Education. And to start,
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The WWE vs. the American education system
The non-answer. The non-answer. Yes. Okay, so to bring this all full circle, we've been dancing around this idea that Trump has long been closely connected to the owners of the WWE, that he loves wrestling. And in some ways, he and his allies have adopted the WWE's playbook. To close this conversation,
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The WWE vs. the American education system
What does the connection between all these dots say about what is real and what is fake in the debate over the future of the Department of Education?
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The WWE vs. the American education system
Gosh, well, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. Corey, Josie, I have learned so much here. I have really appreciated talking to you both. Thank you both so much.
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The WWE vs. the American education system
Yeah, thank you. That was NPR's education correspondent, Corey Turner, and New York Times bestselling author, Josephine Reisman. Her book about Vince McMahon and the WWE is called Ringmaster, Vince McMahon and the Unmaking of America. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Barton Girdwood. Corey Bridges. This episode was edited by Nina Potok. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams.
It's Been a Minute
The WWE vs. the American education system
Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
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The WWE vs. the American education system
I want you to remember this, that for every time President Trump does something unprecedented, he's also doing something that's been done over and over and over again in American politics. Because just like fashion, our politics are always getting recycled. And right now, what's getting rehashed is a nearly half-centuries-old debate over the U.S. Department of Education.
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The WWE vs. the American education system
Now, for those of you who don't know, the Department of Education was established under President Jimmy Carter in 1979. And the very next year, in 1980, when Ronald Reagan was running for president, he pledged to dismantle it, calling the department President Carter's new bureaucratic boondoggle. Gotta bring that word back, boondoggle. Just listen to Reagan's State of the Union address in 1982.
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The WWE vs. the American education system
Sounds a lot like President Trump when he pledged to close the department in office and on the campaign trail.
It's Been a Minute
The WWE vs. the American education system
Republicans have been dogging the Department of Education for decades, but none of them have ever actually dismantled it. Because when it comes down to it, they do seem to like it. So today, I want us to look at this love-hate relationship Republicans have for the department and how this debate looks a lot like a WWE wrestling match. How it's real and how it isn't. So, Corey, help me out here.
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The WWE vs. the American education system
What do Republicans hate about the Department of Education?
It's Been a Minute
The WWE vs. the American education system
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. All right, everybody. This week, you and I are connecting the dots between public education, Ronald Reagan, and the WWE. I know. I know. How are all of these things connected?
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The WWE vs. the American education system
Now, on the flip side, what do Republicans love about the Department of Education?
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The WWE vs. the American education system
Right. Just from population density. Right.
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The WWE vs. the American education system
Well, to stay on this topic of love, hate, tension, that specific tension was on full display at the confirmation hearing for President Trump's pick for education secretary, Linda McMahon. Josie, you've written a whole book about Linda's husband, Vince McMahon, and his reign over his company, World Wrestling Entertainment, aka the WWE.
It's Been a Minute
The WWE vs. the American education system
Vince McMahon has been in the limelight for decades. Much more so than Linda, though she has been a part of storylines on the WWE.
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The WWE vs. the American education system
I want to know, what do we need to know about Linda McMahon? And since she's slated to be the next secretary of education, can you tell us, like, who is she? What's her worldview?
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The WWE vs. the American education system
Hmm. Corey, is there anything significant that you reflect on that you learned about Linda McMahon during this hearing? Um,
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The WWE vs. the American education system
Well, we are going to find out with NPR's education correspondent, Corey Turner, and bestselling author, Josephine Reisman. Corey, Josie, welcome to It's Been a Minute. Oh, it's great to be here. Perfect.
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The WWE vs. the American education system
Yeah, I was going to say that sounds like a non-answer. Okay, okay. Now, I want to take us back to something you brought up a minute ago, Josie. The fact that Donald Trump and Linda and Vince McMahon have known each other for a very long time, since the 1980s. Yeah. Basically, since the time... that the Department of Education was born.
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The WWE vs. the American education system
Obviously, that meeting has led to a lengthy relationship. I mean, Trump appeared in a WWE wrestling match.
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The WWE vs. the American education system
Josie, you know, for you having researched the McMahons and Trump's long history together, what's an example of how Trump and the McMahons share a similar worldview? I mean, I don't know. I've heard you say before that Trump answers Vince McMahon's phone calls differently than Coming up, how Trump answers one McMahon's phone calls differently than almost anyone else.
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The WWE vs. the American education system
Who these people are and what that says about the future of our education system. After a quick break.
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The WWE vs. the American education system
Okay, so which one of these battles do you think you are more likely to win? A congressional confirmation hearing or a WWE wrestling showdown? I myself personally, the showdown, I think I would win. I think I have big face energy. To use some wrestling terminology, I think I have big face energy.
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The WWE vs. the American education system
Josie, for you having researched the McMahons and Trump's long history together, what's an example of how Trump and the McMahons share a similar worldview? I mean, I don't know. I've heard you say before that Trump answers... Vince McMahon's phone calls differently. Well, at least used to.
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The WWE vs. the American education system
Gosh, thinking about the length of this relationship, you know, starting in the 80s and extending all the way to today, fast-forwarding to the presidential election, 2024, last year, Josie, there was this moment when we saw... The intersection between education policy and the WWE and Trump and the WWE wrestler The Undertaker all converge in a surprising way just mere days before the election.
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The WWE vs. the American education system
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which I don't want to assume, but I don't know if everybody who's listening to this show is an Undertaker listener as well.
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The WWE vs. the American education system
And to be clear, all of this frustration over Title IX is because the Biden administration expanded Title IX to include protections for transgender students. And as we all know, Republicans were extremely energized by this. Anti-trans rhetoric became a rallying cry for the Trump campaign.
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The WWE vs. the American education system
But Corey, all this anger and frustration Republicans have at Title IX over transgender rights is kind of moot at this point, right? Yeah.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
Hello, hello. It's Brittany. And really quick, let's have some real talk. This is the season when NPR comes to you as a nonprofit news organization to ask for your support. Maybe you're already an NPR Plus subscriber. And if so, thank you so much. But if you've never given to public media before or not in a while, please consider it right now.
It's Been a Minute
Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
Y'all, so much has happened this year. Things have been done. Things have been said. Some things have even been regretted. For both of you, how will you look back on 2024? It's over.
It's Been a Minute
Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
Instead of just Googling the definition of each word because they are different?
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
Okay. But that is a, I have to say, Wolf of Ignorance, I think has given a lot of us a run for our money this year. So that is a very good pick. And the winner for Villain of the Year is... Life.
It's Been a Minute
Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
But you know what? You were not alone in that feeling. You were not alone in that feeling. We're going to take a quick break. And when we get back, we're actually getting into our next category, the biggest flop of 2024. We'll be right back. It is time now for our next award for the biggest flop. The thing that was or that should have been or could have been, but just got deflated.
It's Been a Minute
Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
Parker, what is your biggest flop 2024? Biggest flop of 2024.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
I have a nuanced opinion on the Cybertruck, which is that... I don't want one. I don't like them, but I do think that they make aesthetic sense for the .0000001% of people. I think if you dress like Kim Kardashian or like Rick Owens or Team Rocket from Pokemon, then I think that you actually deserve a Cybertruck because you're serving angular, gray, dystopian in every aspect of your life.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
Thank you, Jesus.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
Like Kim Kardashian, okay? She took kind of like a home that had this kind of colonial Georgian kind of look to it. And she and Kanye stripped it down to something that looked brutalist and intense. But for everybody else, most of the guys that I see driving around in them, it's a bunch of rich, regular guys wearing polos.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
And I'm like, if you're going to live the Cybertruck lifestyle, I want to see a full closet makeover. You need to be dressed like Mad Max. I want to see you commit to the bit.
It's Been a Minute
Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
All right, well, Aisha, I want to know, what is your biggest flop for 2024? Biggest flop.
It's Been a Minute
Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
So for those who don't know, six years ago, Drake and Pusha T were going bar for bar and Push basically shut their entire beef down by releasing a diss track that had a picture of young Drake in blackface on the cover. But that's not all. Within the song, Pusha T revealed that Drake had been hiding a child. And he did all this over Anina Simone.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
Now, I'm sure both of you have seen those end-of-year lists, ranking the best of the best of 2024. There's the best movies of the year, which, honestly, Conclave. Those Cardinals and Conclave, they're kind of number one in my book right now. Or the best music of the year. In my opinion, I was a little brat this year, okay? I was bumping my Charlie.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
And Billboard named that song the second most scathing hip-hop diss of all time in 2024. And for good reason. A lot of the things Drake was attacked for in those tracks were amplified to the nth degree in his beef this year with Kendrick.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
Well, he's not exactly suing yet. But Drake did file a petition against Universal Music Group and Spotify over what he alleges is this scheme set up to artificially inflate the numbers of Kendrick's diss track. which has generated over 915 million Spotify clicks and has been Grammy nominated for both Record and Song of the Year. Now, UMG has denied those claims, calling them offensive and untrue.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
But yes, Drake has decided to take some legal action.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
basically dismantled every single aspect of Drake's public persona, song by song, line by line. I mean, that is a very good point. That is a very good point. A few people I think flopped as hard as Drake did this year, so very good pick. What's yours? My pick this year is a literal flop. Megalopolis.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
In addition to being panned by critics and audiences alike, okay, nobody, like virtually nobody liked this movie, I'm just being honest.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
Megalopolis actually lost over $100 million. And Francis Ford Coppola paid for the movie out of his own pocket, okay? So he actually took a serious, like, it wasn't like he paid for it and then nobody saw it, but the few people who did see it were like, you know what? This was a masterpiece. It was like he paid for it. Nobody really saw it.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
And then the people that did see it were like, I never want to see this again. I actually am one of the few people who actually saw Megalopolis in theaters, despite its terrible reviews, because I thought it would be kind of bad in a fun way or at least bad in a memorable way. But it was just like bad and boring.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
I mean, one person in my showing actually slept so long and so hard through the film that ushers had to come into the theater and after the credits had rolled and the lights were completely up, and wake him up.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
They had to go in there and actually physically jostle him because Megalopolis, I mean, he was with the Sandman. My man was knocked out. So as white noise, it's great. As white noise, I would say if you have a toddler who is struggling with sleep, you got a baby who needs to lay down, put on the audio of Megalopolis, and that might really just take him all the way down because Lord have mercy.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
I was bumping that. I was bumping that all spring, all summer, all fall, and into the winter. I have been bumping my Charlie. But here on It's Been a Minute, we are awarding the best moments in culture. And through it all, we're getting a clearer picture of the things that brought us joy, that made us think and maybe even cringe a little bit in 2024. So let's get to some awards.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
Nobody needs to see the movie. Nobody needs to see it. And the winner for flop of the year is... Drake! Aisha, congratulations. You have won this category. All right, y'all, we are now going to close out by awarding a very special award to one diva who captured all of our hearts this year. She made us smile, she made us laugh, and she brought joy the whole world over.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
This year's Who's This Diva Award, our award for the diva you didn't know about last year, but whose name you can't stop saying now. This very special award goes to a girl with no competition. Our 2024 Who's This Diva Award recipient is the one, the only Miss Mu Dang, the internationally famous pygmy hippo in the Khao Kyo Zoo in Thailand. I am obsessed with her. Shut it down.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
And at some point this year, you probably were to admit it. And why not? She's tiny. She's cute. She sleeps all day. and has impossibly glossy skin. I think that's something that, you know, I think we could all get down with. Sleeping all day, having moisturized skin. I'm like, who doesn't want to live that life? And also, on top of it, my sister loves to crash out, okay? She loves to bite people.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
She also became famous enough to get haters, okay? And that's when you really know you've made it. Mudang, get behind me, girl. Get behind me.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
Listen, she is literally just the internet sweetheart, okay? I'm just reflecting back what the people have shown us that they want. And if that's a crime, lock me up.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
She just stays petite. Stays cutie. She stays cute.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
You know what? I believe Aisha.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
See, y'all's suspicion feels like conspiracy theories, which feels like willful ignorance, okay? And we're not going back. I'm not going back to that, okay? We're going forward in 2025. We're leaving that in the past, okay? All right, well, this concludes the 2024 iBammies, the It's Been a Minute Culture Award Show. A huge congratulations to all of our winners and losers.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
And Aisha, Parker, thank you both so much for looking back on the year. It sounds like you all want to forget.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
Well, I can't wait to talk to both of you again in 2025. Thank you both so much. Bye.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
Aisha just got a crash challenge. She's going to reset and be right back with us. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. That was NPR's Aisha Roscoe. She's the host of Weekend Edition. And B.A. Parker. She's the co-host of NPR's Code Switch. Let us all know your nominees by commenting on this episode on Spotify or by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. And for all our loyal listeners, tune in Monday.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
I repeat, Monday. I have a really exciting announcement I want to share with you all that I have been sitting on for months that I can't wait to tell you about. I'll be back Monday, December 30th in this podcast feed with an extra special surprise. Don't miss it.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
First up, we've got the word of the year. Either the word you couldn't stop saying or the word you couldn't stop hearing. Parker, let's start with you. What is your word of the year?
It's Been a Minute
Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
For the uninitiated, what does it mean, Parker? Could you give us a definition for what it means to crash out?
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
Maybe. I don't know. Real crash routers. I don't think we care.
It's Been a Minute
Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
Because literally, this show would not exist without your support. The easiest way to support It's Been a Minute and the NPR network stations all across the country is to sign up for NPR+. It's a recurring donation that gets you special perks for more than 25 NPR podcasts and sponsor-free listening for this show. Join NPR Plus at plus.npr.org. That's plus.npr.org. And thank you so much.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
That's so nice. I crash out probably like the first 30 minutes of every day of my life. I'm crashing out. My husband's watching. And then we go on with our day.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
Oh, I don't have any problem doing that.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
All right, Aisha, I want to hear your word of the year. What is your word of 2024?
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
Okay, so, so far we have Crash Out. We have Cutesy, which is delightful. My word of the year is a little different from those. I chose the good old Hawk Tua. Oh my goodness. Absolutely not. I had to do it to him. I had to do it to him. Okay. It's a word we didn't know before. And we all know exactly what it means. Okay.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
We didn't know in 2023. We didn't know in 2023. But we know now.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
You know, what is language but us just putting new names on old things, okay? The other thing I'll say about Hawk Tour is that it's exemplary of new fame. You know what I mean? It used to be that if you became famous, you had to tap dance or sing some songs or be in a movie. She had one little out of context social media clip, not even a clip she posted. Okay.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
And she was able to leverage it into legitimate fame. I mean, you know, there's been a lot of people who haven't been able to capitalize on their moments, but you know, I'll say to give some credit to the medium through podcasting, she has been able to make herself into a real deal celebrity.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
And I do think there's something very 2024 about both the term, the way she became famous, and what she has done with the fame. She has taken two seconds of nothing and turned it into a media empire. Like I said, whether you like it or not, that's the truth. I respect the game. As they say, the game is the game. The game is the game, okay?
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
And the winner for Word of the Year is... Crash Out. Good choice, Parker.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
Let's start with our next category. The loudest gasp heard around the world. This, of course, is the event that happened in culture in 2024 that literally stopped You in your tracks. It was lighting up your group chats. It's the thing everyone from your best friend to your great grandma heard about. We all were in on this event. Aisha, we'll start with you. Who did you nominate and why?
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
or being a critical part of our public media community. Now, let's go get some culture. Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. Hello, hello. Welcome to the second annual iBammies, the It's Been a Minute 2024 Culture Awards Show.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
That... Was a crash out. And you know what he did? Yeah. He stood 10 toes down. Okay. You don't always have to walk them back. I'm just letting y'all know there's an option. If you want to crash out and you don't want to walk it back, you don't have to be sanctified. Okay. I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just saying. All right. All right. Well, Parker, what about you?
It's Been a Minute
Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
What, what, what did you nominate? What moment did you nominate for the loudest gasp heard around the world?
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
It's never going away. I feel like this beef may last through into my octogenarian years. I think this is going to be for life forever.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
This is a year of petty and they were simply following along a pattern. Well, I have a slightly different pick tonally. My pick was actually the Trump assassination attempt.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
I was already shocked by that. But then what I was really shocked by was how fast the media and the public moved on from that. And, you know, I mean, our news cycle has accelerated so fast, but I think that's partially because of Donald Trump's behavior. You know, he's very often doing something newsworthy. And at this point, it's hard for us to keep up with what's going on in his world.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
It's like the news cycle is so accelerated that even when Donald Trump got shot, Within a week, the public had already just kept right on going with the news churn and all of the other election news. I mean, it was shocking to see how quickly everybody could move on from such a big event and also kind of scary.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
And the winner for loudest gasp is the Drake versus Kendrick beef. Thank you, Jesus. Yeah, I gotta say, I gotta hand it to you on that one. That was pretty shocking. That was pretty shocking. All right, y'all, we've got two categories down, two more to go. We're gonna take a quick break, but before that, I wanted to take a moment to surprise all of our loyal listeners with a present.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
Next Monday in this podcast feed, I have a huge announcement that I have been sitting on. I have been keeping this in for months. And I can't wait to tell you all about it. So be sure to come back here next Monday, December 30th. And when we get back, we're actually getting into the biggest flop of 2024. We'll be right back.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
Hello, hello. Welcome back to the second annual iBammies. Let's get to our next category. the villain of the year, the person or thing who really showed just how devious they are. What about you, Aisha? Who or what is your villain of the year? It is life.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
That's how I say life is the villain. Aisha, I just want to send you a hug because...
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
2024. As the saying goes, life comes at you fast. It comes at you fast. Well, Lord, have mercy. My villain of the year is the thunder from down under, Australian breakdancer, Dr. Rachel Gunn. Here we go. Ray Gunn starting the conversation.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
Ray Gunn went viral for her breakdancing performance at the 2024 Olympics, where her moves were not quite up to par with what you or I or anyone who grew up breakdancing on the streets of the Bronx would call breaking. She was eliminated at the round robin stage. And even though she didn't earn a single point, she did earn global attention.
It's Been a Minute
Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
I'm your host, Brittany Luce, here with my very special guests, Aisha Roscoe from NPR's Weekend Edition and B.A. Parker, co-host of NPR's Code Switch. Aisha, Parker, I'm so glad to have you both here.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
In a video posted to her Instagram, Ray Gunn thanked her supporters and acknowledged the backlash to her performance. I didn't realize that that would also open the door to so much hate, which is frankly been pretty devastating. Now, I can acknowledge that it must be pretty crushing to represent your country in a form of expression that you love and have the whole world laugh at you.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
But Australia is an entire continent with millions of people. She was the best breakdancer that they had on the whole of the continent. I don't know. It also brought up a lot of conversations about appropriation and breakdancing, which started as a competitive activity primarily in Black and brown communities among Black and Latino people. So no shade to her, but a little shade, actually.
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Ranking the best and worst of 2024: Moo Deng, Drake & Crashing Out
I guess I wouldn't say she's technically a villain. You know, she's not dastardly. She's not like a Scrooge McDuck kind of character or something like that, you know, or Two-Face from Batman, but... I don't know. I just wouldn't call her a hero of breaking either. But that's just me. That's just me. Yeah. All right, Parker. I want to know, who was your villain of the year?
It's Been a Minute
Think you have ADHD? Here's why so many of us are saying yes.
Well, I should say some clinicians think that this high top model is also flawed and would point out that there isn't any empirical evidence that shows it would work better than the DSM. But regardless, what are the consequences of so much personal and cultural investment in diagnoses or in any particular diagnostic system?
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Think you have ADHD? Here's why so many of us are saying yes.
Thank you both so much for this conversation. I really appreciate learning from you. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, thank you so much. That was culture journalist Kelly Maria Korducky and Manvir Singh, assistant professor of anthropology at UC Davis.
It's Been a Minute
Think you have ADHD? Here's why so many of us are saying yes.
And I'm going to put on my influencer hat for a minute and ask you to please subscribe to this show on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you're listening. Click follow so you know the latest in culture while it's still hot. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Liam McBain. This episode was edited by Nina Potok. Our supervising producer is Barton Girdwood.
It's Been a Minute
Think you have ADHD? Here's why so many of us are saying yes.
Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
Think you have ADHD? Here's why so many of us are saying yes.
all these online voices start to make it seem like anything could be a sign of a diagnosis. Now, I'm not trying to say ADHD looks one way or that it can't affect many parts of people's lives. Trust me, it affects many parts of mine. But this all has me wondering, what happens when a diagnosis goes viral?
It's Been a Minute
Think you have ADHD? Here's why so many of us are saying yes.
And when people say, oh, that sounds like me, how do you separate personal identity from a diagnosable condition? So Kelly, Monvir, a lot to get into, but I wanna first focus on adults. Adult ADHD diagnoses have soared in recent years. Count me in that number. Kelly, your reporting showed that there was over a 100% increase. What's going on here? Why the increase?
It's Been a Minute
Think you have ADHD? Here's why so many of us are saying yes.
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. All right, y'all. This week, we are connecting the dots between TikTok, a neurological diagnosis, and that food molding in the back of your fridge. don't think these things are connected?
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Think you have ADHD? Here's why so many of us are saying yes.
Hmm. I definitely hear what you're saying about the possibility for kind of, this isn't an elegant term, almost like a market correction for people who maybe previously should have been diagnosed and were not. Like you said, women, people of color, check, check. That definitely, I think, was a little bit a part of probably what happened with me.
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Think you have ADHD? Here's why so many of us are saying yes.
Like I had a teacher reach out to my mom about me having inattentive actually, not hyperactive, but like inattentive ADHD symptoms when I was like in kindergarten. We didn't come back around to that for about another 28 years, but it's all good. But what benefits do people see from getting a diagnosis?
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Think you have ADHD? Here's why so many of us are saying yes.
Yeah. I mean, I've seen some of that play out for sure online, but also, I mean... ADHD content more broadly is super popular online. Like on TikTok, ADHD and related hashtags have garnered hundreds of millions of views. The Reddit thread r slash ADHD grew from like 643,000 subscribers at the start of the pandemic to over 2 million today.
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Think you have ADHD? Here's why so many of us are saying yes.
Kelly, you wrote a piece in The Guardian about this, and I was really into your idea of separating the neurological disorder of ADHD from hashtag ADHD as a quote, algorithmic content incentive and affirmation of experience. Why do we need to separate those two things?
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Think you have ADHD? Here's why so many of us are saying yes.
Yeah. Like a lot of creators are making videos discussing their symptoms, and some of them are backed by science and others are not. There's a bigger list that clinicians use, but some of the recognized symptoms of ADHD include task avoidance, easy distraction, forgetfulness, and fidgeting. But I also saw, you know, a bunch of TikToks about how people with ADHD like...
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Think you have ADHD? Here's why so many of us are saying yes.
have a hard time doing fridge management. Like that's its own symptom. You know, what food is in your fridge, how long it's been in there, making sure your nice produce isn't going bad and the takeout leftovers are moldering in the back. And I'll say that's not a problem for me. And I also know a lot of people who don't have ADHD who struggle with fridge management for whatever reason.
It's Been a Minute
Think you have ADHD? Here's why so many of us are saying yes.
And one study found that over a third of the claims about ADHD on social media weren't related at all to ADHD or even other diagnoses, but were instead just, quote, reflecting normal human experience. This study, to me, suggests perhaps people are over-pathologizing aspects of their own lives. But what I really don't understand is what do they get out of this? Like, why do people...
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Think you have ADHD? Here's why so many of us are saying yes.
Well, Kelly, Manvir, and I are here to prove it to you. Kelly Maria Korducky is a culture journalist, and Manvir Singh is a professor of anthropology at UC Davis. Kelly, Manvir, welcome to It's Been a Minute. Thank you. Yeah, thank you so much for having us. I am so thrilled to have you both here. So to set the scene, let me share some videos that have been popping up on my social feed lately.
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Think you have ADHD? Here's why so many of us are saying yes.
What diagnosis and what does it add to their identity?
It's Been a Minute
Think you have ADHD? Here's why so many of us are saying yes.
You know, I've seen a couple of writers describe what's going on as quote unquote diagnosis culture.
It's Been a Minute
Think you have ADHD? Here's why so many of us are saying yes.
And going off of what you just said about diagnosis becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy, I think some people might use it as a full explanation for what's going on in their lives at the expense of thinking about how their personal history might factor in or even thinking about some social or systemic reasons why people might find it hard to cope with their lives. What do you think about that?
It's Been a Minute
Think you have ADHD? Here's why so many of us are saying yes.
Coming up, is the diagnostic system itself the problem?
It's Been a Minute
Think you have ADHD? Here's why so many of us are saying yes.
Some researchers say that even with this increase in diagnoses, ADHD is still underdiagnosed specifically for people of color and women. And I think that that can be true, but there are also business incentives that go along with these cultural incentives to see ADHD in everyone.
It's Been a Minute
Think you have ADHD? Here's why so many of us are saying yes.
You know, like there is one telehealth company accused of and another whose executives have been criminally charged with distributing Adderall and other ADHD drugs to patients who didn't need them in order to allegedly boost bottom lines and keep patient retention. Also, it bears mentioning that a lot of these drugs are addictive.
It's Been a Minute
Think you have ADHD? Here's why so many of us are saying yes.
How do we balance getting people with ADHD the help they need with not allowing situations like this to arise?
It's Been a Minute
Think you have ADHD? Here's why so many of us are saying yes.
For people who don't know, the DSM is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders, which is the book that doctors use to diagnose people for all kinds of mental health issues and disorders. Right.
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Think you have ADHD? Here's why so many of us are saying yes.
But speaking to the issues with it, even after getting diagnosed myself, I noticed so many discrepancies between how that process happened for me and how that process happened for other people I know who got diagnosed with ADHD. I had to jump through way more hoops. That's kind of when I had an inkling that maybe the diagnostic tools that we have are not perfect.
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Think you have ADHD? Here's why so many of us are saying yes.
These are all from the hashtag ADHD. And these kinds of videos from how to self-diagnose to how to manage a diagnosis are all over social feeds. And one study found that over a third of the claims about ADHD on social media weren't related at all to ADHD or even other diagnoses, but were instead just, quote, reflecting normal human experience.
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Think you have ADHD? Here's why so many of us are saying yes.
So what would a better model look like?
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Think you have ADHD? Here's why so many of us are saying yes.
For example, everyone is on a spectrum between not socially anxious and really socially anxious. And there's some point along the spectrum where clinicians might say someone needs therapeutic help for it, right? And there are all kinds of traits people have that exist on these lines, and some of them are related. And looking at
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Think you have ADHD? Here's why so many of us are saying yes.
All these dimensions more holistically can help us sort out what's going on with a person and, you know, what interventions might help them rather than a label that might not fully explain people's symptoms.
It's Been a Minute
Tech billionaires want to get richer. Trump is already helping them.
Thinking about all this, I just have to say really quick. Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk. I know you guys are all buddy-buddy now next to Trump, but I haven't forgotten when you said that you were going to fist fight at the Roman Coliseum. Right. Okay.
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Tech billionaires want to get richer. Trump is already helping them.
Bobby, Ashley, I have learned so much here. Thank you both so much. Thank you. Thanks for having me. That was NPR's tech correspondent, Bobby Allen, and The Atlantic's Ashley Parker. You can find Ashley's piece, The Tech Oligarchy, has arrived in the description of this episode. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Barton Girdwood. This episode was edited by Jasmine Romero.
It's Been a Minute
Tech billionaires want to get richer. Trump is already helping them.
Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
Tech billionaires want to get richer. Trump is already helping them.
An oligarchy, put very simply, is a form of government where a few people have all of the power. And usually, when people say it, they mean really wealthy people being the ones in control. Now, it's no secret that Trump is a fan of the ultra wealthy. It's kind of his thing.
It's Been a Minute
Tech billionaires want to get richer. Trump is already helping them.
His previous administration was the record holder for the richest presidential cabinet in history with a combined wealth of $3.2 billion. But this time around, he's outdone himself. His top advisors now hold an estimated mind-boggling $460 billion. Wow. 16 of President Trump's cabinet nominees are in the top 0001% of the richest people.
It's Been a Minute
Tech billionaires want to get richer. Trump is already helping them.
Honestly, when I step back and think about that, it's not that surprising. Like there has been documented reporting about the outsized influence the rich have on our government and policies. And that's whether the presidency or Senate is controlled by Republicans or Democrats.
It's Been a Minute
Tech billionaires want to get richer. Trump is already helping them.
So I'm here to ask what's new about the latest president's relationship to the rich and what that means for the evolution of our federal government for the next four years. Ashley, Bobby, a lot of this oligarchy chatter started happening when three of the richest men in the world attended Trump's inauguration, Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, and Jeff Bezos.
It's Been a Minute
Tech billionaires want to get richer. Trump is already helping them.
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. Okay, y'all. This week, we are connecting the dots between President Trump, the richest 0.0001%, and saying the quiet part out loud. I know, I know. How are all these things connected?
It's Been a Minute
Tech billionaires want to get richer. Trump is already helping them.
Specifically, people started talking about a tech oligarchy. In theory. If there were to be a tech oligarchy in this country, or any country perhaps, what would that look like? Sure.
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Tech billionaires want to get richer. Trump is already helping them.
So taking that, what's an example of something happening between the Trump administration and these tech CEOs right now that people can point to that feels like evidence of a tech oligarchy taking shape?
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Tech billionaires want to get richer. Trump is already helping them.
Andreessen Horowitz. Yeah. Like. Big venture capitalist.
It's Been a Minute
Tech billionaires want to get richer. Trump is already helping them.
Well, NPR's tech correspondent, Bobby Allen, and The Atlantic's Ashley Parker are here to explain it as loudly as they can. Welcome to It's Been a Minute, y'all. Thank you so much for coming. Thanks for having me. Yeah, thank you. Okay, really quick. When I say the top 0.0001% richest people... Can you all even picture how much money that is?
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Tech billionaires want to get richer. Trump is already helping them.
Yeah, literally on his second day in office, President Trump threw his support behind a $500 billion investment to build artificial intelligence infrastructure in the United States. It's called Stargate, and it's a venture involving Trump's friend, Larry Ellison, who also happens to be the CEO of Oracle.
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Tech billionaires want to get richer. Trump is already helping them.
Well, OK, so from where I'm sitting, it's pretty clear why, you know, butting up to Trump is good for these CEOs. But like, what about President Trump? Like, what? How is an alleged oligarchy good for him? I mean, from what we know about Trump, he doesn't seem like a guy that's just going to bend to what someone else wants. He very frequently tries to do the opposite.
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Tech billionaires want to get richer. Trump is already helping them.
What is he getting out of these relationships?
It's Been a Minute
Tech billionaires want to get richer. Trump is already helping them.
Yeah, one of the things I've been thinking about is with this oligarchy, tech oligarchy, technoligarchy, as you've called it, a broligarchy, as others have called it. It just makes me think about over the years 2016 to 2020, seeing kind of how sometimes the Trump administration felt like a revolving door of different characters. I mean, who could forget?
It's Been a Minute
Tech billionaires want to get richer. Trump is already helping them.
Scaramucci that name became synonymous with a very brief amount of time. It'll be interesting to see how these relationships continue once the actual tensions and the daily grind of the presidency takes place.
It's Been a Minute
Tech billionaires want to get richer. Trump is already helping them.
Ashley, you gag me right now. That's wild. That is wild. Okay, okay, let me set the scene for this conversation. Leading up to, during, and following President Trump's inauguration, one word kept coming up. Oligarchy. Take, for example, former President Biden. He had this to say in his farewell address last week.
It's Been a Minute
Tech billionaires want to get richer. Trump is already helping them.
When we get back, has America already been an oligarchy? Some things that Steve Bannon and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez agree on.
It's Been a Minute
Tech billionaires want to get richer. Trump is already helping them.
After a quick break. To bring this back to oligarchy, we started this conversation with Biden saying, quote, an oligarchy is taking shape. And I feel like that kind of implies that Biden didn't think we weren't already in one, but people like Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez went off on TikTok saying, you know, we've already been in an oligarchy.
It's Been a Minute
Tech billionaires want to get richer. Trump is already helping them.
Oh, I don't think we're witnessing the start of an oligarchy. I think we are fully here. It kind of makes me wonder, like Carrie Bradshaw, I couldn't help but wonder, is this moment really that different from how things have been run in the past, or at least the more recent past? I mean, have we already been living in this system? And is this business as usual?
It's Been a Minute
Tech billionaires want to get richer. Trump is already helping them.
Or are we at a moment where there's a real change taking place in terms of how an oligarchy can shape American politics? Yeah.
It's Been a Minute
Tech billionaires want to get richer. Trump is already helping them.
I would say, yeah, that's what feels different to me here. You know, Trump, like he has done in so many other instances, he's kind of saying the quiet part loud, like oligarchy is not new for this country. There are plenty of wealthy people who hold a lot of influence and power. among our politicians and our government leaders.
It's Been a Minute
Tech billionaires want to get richer. Trump is already helping them.
But what is new is this image of Musk and Zuckerberg and Bezos at the inauguration.
It's Been a Minute
Tech billionaires want to get richer. Trump is already helping them.
This isn't happening in the back room. This is on camera at the U.S. Capitol. And to me, I have to agree with you, Ashley, that is what is new.
It's Been a Minute
Why can't we (or Ms. Rachel) talk about Gaza's children dying?
Thank you. That was defectors Samer Kalaf and the guardians Mona Chalabi. And I'm going to put on my influencer hat for a second and ask you to please subscribe to this show on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you're listening. Click follow so you know the latest in culture while it's still hot. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Corey Antonio Rose.
It's Been a Minute
Why can't we (or Ms. Rachel) talk about Gaza's children dying?
This episode was edited by Nina Potok. Our supervising producer is Barton Girdwood. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right, that's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
Why can't we (or Ms. Rachel) talk about Gaza's children dying?
I can't say I relate to Pep, but when I needed her, she was there for me, repeating the same words over and over again. This week, we are connecting the dots between the children in your life, humanitarian aid, and your First Amendment rights. I know, I know. How are all of these things connected?
It's Been a Minute
Why can't we (or Ms. Rachel) talk about Gaza's children dying?
Well, we're going to find out with Defector Managing Editor Samer Khalaf and the Guardian's Data Editor Mona Chalabi. Samer, Mona, welcome to It's Been a Minute.
It's Been a Minute
Why can't we (or Ms. Rachel) talk about Gaza's children dying?
So today we are discussing someone who needs no introduction.
It's Been a Minute
Why can't we (or Ms. Rachel) talk about Gaza's children dying?
Outside of her show, Ms. Rachel, whose full name is Rachel Acurso, has also advocated on Instagram for the safety of children around the world, including Israeli children who were taken hostage in the October 7th attacks and children suffering in Gaza, which she doubled down on in an interview with journalist Mehdi Hassan.
It's Been a Minute
Why can't we (or Ms. Rachel) talk about Gaza's children dying?
And this week, she posted again to her Instagram, making another plea for empathy.
It's Been a Minute
Why can't we (or Ms. Rachel) talk about Gaza's children dying?
But let's go back a bit. Last month, a privately funded pro-Israel advocacy organization called Stop Antisemitism asked the Department of Justice to investigate whether Ms. Rachel was being paid by Hamas to share her messages on social media. For the record, Ms. Rachel has denied receiving any funding from Hamas.
It's Been a Minute
Why can't we (or Ms. Rachel) talk about Gaza's children dying?
But these accusations have reignited conversations surrounding what constitutes antisemitism. And in light of the fatal shooting of two Israeli embassy workers in D.C. on Wednesday night, people are feeling scared. But the blowback against Ms. Rachel makes me wonder why some people feel like stopping anti-Semitism and wanting health and safety for Palestinian people are mutually exclusive.
It's Been a Minute
Why can't we (or Ms. Rachel) talk about Gaza's children dying?
Since October 2023, at least 15,000 children have been killed in Gaza. Around 17,000 have been orphaned. The World Health Organization says the entire 2.1 million population of Gaza is facing prolonged food shortages, with nearly half a million people facing acute malnutrition, starvation, illness, and death. And of course, children are the most vulnerable to these atrocities.
It's Been a Minute
Why can't we (or Ms. Rachel) talk about Gaza's children dying?
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. Today, we are talking children's TV characters. Who is the GOAT?
It's Been a Minute
Why can't we (or Ms. Rachel) talk about Gaza's children dying?
Samer, Mona, why is advocating for the safety of all children causing all of this commotion?
It's Been a Minute
Why can't we (or Ms. Rachel) talk about Gaza's children dying?
Disproportionate in the sense that some critics feel like she's posting too much about Palestinian kids.
It's Been a Minute
Why can't we (or Ms. Rachel) talk about Gaza's children dying?
Mona, I'd like to hear from you on this. Why do you think people are up in arms about Ms. Rachel right now?
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Why can't we (or Ms. Rachel) talk about Gaza's children dying?
I mean, one of the critiques of Ms. Rachel right now is that she hasn't been staying in her lane as a children's TV star every time she speaks up specifically about the health and welfare of children in Gaza. What do you make of this critique?
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Why can't we (or Ms. Rachel) talk about Gaza's children dying?
You know, she's used her platform to speak out against the bombing and starvation, systematic oppression of children in Gaza right now. Why do you think she is receiving backlash, though, if the messaging isn't on the show or in the songs themselves? Like, this is something she's doing in places that typically children are not going to see it. Like, she did an interview with Zateo Essimo with CNN.
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Why can't we (or Ms. Rachel) talk about Gaza's children dying?
You know, this is happening on her Instagram. The children that she's singing to are very small, like they're not going to see these things or hear these messages. I wonder why is the backlash so strong if children aren't really being exposed to this?
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Why can't we (or Ms. Rachel) talk about Gaza's children dying?
Stay with us. Speaking of headline-worthy, all of this hullabaloo has attracted the attention of major news organizations. Obviously, we're talking NPR right now, but also The New York Times, who spoke with Ms. Rachel directly, or at least corresponded with Ms. Rachel directly through email. The New York Times said that in an emailed response to the publication's request for questions, Ms.
It's Been a Minute
Why can't we (or Ms. Rachel) talk about Gaza's children dying?
Rachel denied having received money from Hamas. What do you make of that, Samar?
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Why can't we (or Ms. Rachel) talk about Gaza's children dying?
And look at you now.
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Why can't we (or Ms. Rachel) talk about Gaza's children dying?
It paid off. I have a character who I did not grow up with at all. It's Peppa Pig. I love Peppa Pig's attitude. Listen, listen. I'll explain why. I have a personal connection. Because I have been taking Spanish tutoring for the past year and a half.
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Why can't we (or Ms. Rachel) talk about Gaza's children dying?
Like, it sounds like the claim was completely unfounded. I haven't seen any evidence that would indicate that it would be something that a journalist would need to follow up on.
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Why can't we (or Ms. Rachel) talk about Gaza's children dying?
Hmm. Hmm. I mean, at the end of the day, it blows my mind that a very popular... children's entertainer from YouTube and Netflix, had to deal with unfounded accusations of having ties to Hamas. But that is actually in line with the Heritage Foundation's Project Esther, brought to you by the makers of Project 2025.
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Why can't we (or Ms. Rachel) talk about Gaza's children dying?
Project Esther is basically a plan to characterize dissent against Israel's actions as support for Hamas, really conflating two things that are literally different. What do you make of this?
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Why can't we (or Ms. Rachel) talk about Gaza's children dying?
Right, right. Like just because you might not agree with Zionism doesn't mean you're necessarily anti-Semitic. And you're right. A lot of Jewish community members are also speaking up on behalf of the health and welfare of Palestinian people. I mean, the situation for children in Gaza is so dire right now.
It's Been a Minute
Why can't we (or Ms. Rachel) talk about Gaza's children dying?
Just this week, United Nations humanitarian chief Tom Fletcher described the situation on the ground as, quote, catastrophic. Also, he said that the Israeli blockade was putting 14,000 babies specifically, not just 14,000 children, 14,000 babies at risk of dying in the next 48 hours. And this was on Tuesday that he said that.
It's Been a Minute
Why can't we (or Ms. Rachel) talk about Gaza's children dying?
One of the things that was suggested to me when I was like starting off was that I should watch children's programming to kind of like, you know, get into, you know. And so I started watching Peppa Cerdo on YouTube. Yeah.
It's Been a Minute
Why can't we (or Ms. Rachel) talk about Gaza's children dying?
I guess I always consider the health and welfare of children to be one of those causes that everyone could get behind. Why is talking about the health and welfare of children suddenly so controversial?
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Why can't we (or Ms. Rachel) talk about Gaza's children dying?
You know, Miss Rachel, a beloved American-born children's entertainer, like this bubbly woman, she's got her little headband on, she's got her overalls, she's wearing pink. If she can't talk about kids wanting to be safe, what are the freedom of speech implications for the rest of us?
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Why can't we (or Ms. Rachel) talk about Gaza's children dying?
Well, I mean, literally the pope, I think, actually just called again for the Israeli blockade to end. I renew my heartfelt appeal to allow the entry of dignified humanitarian aid and to put an end to the hostilities whose heartbreaking price is paid by the children, elderly and the sick. So, yeah, I mean, this is something that the Pope is calling for as well.
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Why can't we (or Ms. Rachel) talk about Gaza's children dying?
And he also specifically mentioned children. Mona, Samer, I'm really grateful that you both came on to talk to me today. I really learned so much in this conversation. I really appreciated your time. Thank you so much.
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UFOs to RFKs: How conspiracy theories went mainstream
I want to say that I was shocked and appalled. But after you think about it for one second, you're like, that makes perfect sense.
It's Been a Minute
UFOs to RFKs: How conspiracy theories went mainstream
Thanks for having us back for such a good reason.
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UFOs to RFKs: How conspiracy theories went mainstream
No. It also seems like a thing that people doesn't really seem to care about. They get scrutiny every single year for these reasons, but they don't really ever change anything. But why do you have to pick someone so boring? The more I think about it, the weirder it seems.
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UFOs to RFKs: How conspiracy theories went mainstream
He's been in sexy movies. John Krasinski has not been in sexy movies.
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UFOs to RFKs: How conspiracy theories went mainstream
You scroll through the Sexiest Man Alive cover list on people's website, and it's like, throughout the 90s, it's like, oh, right, when movies were sexy. And as you scroll up, and then you get to, like, Blake Shelton. It's like, I think we've lost the plot.
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UFOs to RFKs: How conspiracy theories went mainstream
Well, the projects that they're in, for one thing.
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UFOs to RFKs: How conspiracy theories went mainstream
Challengers is a sexy movie.
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UFOs to RFKs: How conspiracy theories went mainstream
Dev Patel takes off his shirt to shower and everyone starts watching him and kind of cheering. And I'm like, movies aren't sexy anymore. We don't have sexy stuff anymore. And it was like, oh, they're leaning into this fun, sexy stuff that used to be prevalent everywhere. And it was such a fun throwback.
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UFOs to RFKs: How conspiracy theories went mainstream
He directed himself in that. He was like, you're going to film my body this way. It's just like, that's fun.
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UFOs to RFKs: How conspiracy theories went mainstream
All you have to do is watch Shogun to be like, oh, this is a show filled with sexy people. Why isn't it getting that coverage? And that's like just something that's going to be happening in legacy media forever.
It's Been a Minute
UFOs to RFKs: How conspiracy theories went mainstream
And that's almost why I think that Monkey Man was an even bigger deal because in a way it almost feels like Dev Patel is asserting this aspect of himself that like a lot of people refuse to acknowledge or celebrate. And he's like, I'm gonna have to take it into my own hands and direct a movie where I get to like tell everyone that I am sexy and I want to be called sexy.
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UFOs to RFKs: How conspiracy theories went mainstream
I want to be considered sexy. And I also know that everyone thinks I'm sexy anyway. But for some reason or another, they're not writing about it and they're not like broadly accepting this fact in the culture.
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UFOs to RFKs: How conspiracy theories went mainstream
People is gonna John Krasinski. Yeah.
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UFOs to RFKs: How conspiracy theories went mainstream
The internet sexualizes daddy in a really fun way that I'm not sure people is willing to contend with.
It's Been a Minute
UFOs to RFKs: How conspiracy theories went mainstream
Even though they will put a daddy in the list without ever really referring to him as a daddy.
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UFOs to RFKs: How conspiracy theories went mainstream
That's why I'm looking at the- Put Luke Evans on the cover. You know?
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UFOs to RFKs: How conspiracy theories went mainstream
If you don't look at people, if you don't look at the people cover, then I think yes. And I think that that's just – That's a factor of people casting not the same type of person in every single movie. And as long as that continues to happen, then I think that sexiness is going to continue evolving or keeping up with what people actually like and what people actually desire.
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UFOs to RFKs: How conspiracy theories went mainstream
But if you only put Glenn Powell in every movie, then we're going to have a problem. Then the sexiness... reaches this kind of stasis. And I do think Glenn Powell is sexy. I don't mean to sound like I'm being mean to Glenn Powell. I think he's sexy.
It's Been a Minute
UFOs to RFKs: How conspiracy theories went mainstream
Imagine thinking you could be mean to Glenn Powell.
It's Been a Minute
UFOs to RFKs: How conspiracy theories went mainstream
It's the scrolling. It's TikTok. It's Reels. It's like if that thing isn't sexy, do one to three flips and you will find something else that's sexy in like the next flick. Sorry. Swiping in. It's just like one to three flicks and you will get something sexy in your feed because there's just like sexiness everywhere.
It's Been a Minute
Poppers, the FDA, & a crackdown decades in the making
But without further ado, the final question.
It's Been a Minute
Poppers, the FDA, & a crackdown decades in the making
It is not a health policy question. Okay. Which of these is Meghan's last name? By Meghan, I mean the princess married to Prince Harry. Is it A, Markle, as in Meghan Markle? Is it B, Duchess of Sussex, as in Meghan, Duchess of Sussex? Or is it C, Harry, as in Meghan and Harry?
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Poppers, the FDA, & a crackdown decades in the making
I didn't wear business casual to the club. The sheer, the spandex, the thigh-high boots. Wow. I was Miss in the streets for real.
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Poppers, the FDA, & a crackdown decades in the making
Oh, it was A. The answer is technically, according to Megan, B, Duchess of Sussex.
It's Been a Minute
Poppers, the FDA, & a crackdown decades in the making
This is interesting. According to Megan herself, she refers to herself as Sussex. That's according to her on her new Netflix series. There is this scene. It is one of the most bizarre.
It's Been a Minute
Poppers, the FDA, & a crackdown decades in the making
She does poppers. Well, she and Mindy Kaling make a... So she and Mindy Kaling, Mindy Kaling's her guest, and she's showing Mindy Kaling how to cook or make something. And Mindy keeps referring to Megan as Megan Markle. But then Megan, very awkwardly, very stressfully, corrects Mindy and says, you know, I'm Sussex now. This is our family name.
It's Been a Minute
Poppers, the FDA, & a crackdown decades in the making
And in fact, Sussex is actually what appears on her passport.
It's Been a Minute
Poppers, the FDA, & a crackdown decades in the making
And if she invites you, she'll correct you. She'll show Mindy Kaling. She doesn't care how famous you are. All right. Well, that's it for But Did You Know? For this week, congratulations to Alex on your win. Oh my gosh.
It's Been a Minute
Poppers, the FDA, & a crackdown decades in the making
Wow. And Selena, Alex, thank you both so much for joining me today.
It's Been a Minute
Poppers, the FDA, & a crackdown decades in the making
All right. That was NPR's Selena Simmons Duffin and Vox's Alex Abad-Santos. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Corey Bridges. This episode was edited by Nina Potok. Our supervising producer is Barton Girdwood. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR.
It's Been a Minute
Poppers, the FDA, & a crackdown decades in the making
But I really was a 365 party girl. Wow. Well, 365 party girl is, of course, a reference to my favorite brat, Charlie XCX. We'll come back to her later. But first, let me set the scene for this conversation. Last week, the FDA allegedly raided businesses who produce amyl nitrite, aka poppers.
It's Been a Minute
Poppers, the FDA, & a crackdown decades in the making
I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
Poppers, the FDA, & a crackdown decades in the making
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. This week, we are connecting the dots between gas stations, RFK Jr., and Charlie XCX. I know, I know. How are all of these things connected?
It's Been a Minute
Poppers, the FDA, & a crackdown decades in the making
Poppers are a liquid chemical compound typically found in tiny bottles, and the chemical is sometimes used by doctors to treat heart conditions. But when huffed as an inhalant, it gives people a euphoric high that lasts for a few minutes. Now, poppers have been around for over half a century and have existed in a legal gray zone for decades.
It's Been a Minute
Poppers, the FDA, & a crackdown decades in the making
But over the past decade, they've gotten more and more popular. So popular that you can find them at a bodega or a gas station. So why is the FDA apparently so interested in stopping their production? And does that have to do with who uses poppers the most? So question, Alex, who uses poppers and how prevalent is their use?
It's Been a Minute
Poppers, the FDA, & a crackdown decades in the making
Yes, yes. I mean, you can still see that image surfacing on social media today. And then there is Charlie's touring mate, the gay Australian pop star, Troye Sivan, love his music, whose global hit from 2023, Rush, loved it. That was my husband's song of the summer, by the way, Rush, in 2023. But Rush was named after the most popular popper's brand, which is also called Rush.
It's Been a Minute
Poppers, the FDA, & a crackdown decades in the making
All of this shows how ingrained poppers are in gay culture, but also how their reach goes beyond gay culture. kind of making their way into the broader culture. Talk to us about poppers as a cultural symbol, Alex.
It's Been a Minute
Poppers, the FDA, & a crackdown decades in the making
So this all kicked off last week when the poppers company Double Scorpio posted a statement to their website saying that they had been raided by the FDA and had to basically shut down their business. for the time being. But I wonder, Selena, why did or why might the FDA allegedly go after this poppers producer, Double Scorpio? Like, is there something dangerous about poppers use?
It's Been a Minute
Poppers, the FDA, & a crackdown decades in the making
I'm curious why poppers might even be on the FDA's radar.
It's Been a Minute
Poppers, the FDA, & a crackdown decades in the making
Like a little bit of a panic around misuse.
It's Been a Minute
Poppers, the FDA, & a crackdown decades in the making
Well, we are going to find out with NPR's health policy correspondent, Selena Simmons-Duffin, and Vox Senior Culture correspondent, Alex Abad-Santos. Selena, Alex, welcome to It's Been a Minute. Hi.
It's Been a Minute
Poppers, the FDA, & a crackdown decades in the making
I mean, the thing I keep thinking about also is that he's not necessarily alone in thinking that. Like Joe Rogan and NFL quarterback Aaron Rodgers have both echoed similar claims in high profile media appearances. Like, I don't know. I wonder, like, is this all pointing to a new era of HIV and AIDS denialism? Yeah.
It's Been a Minute
Poppers, the FDA, & a crackdown decades in the making
It's good to have you, Selena, for the first time. It's good to have you back, Alex. Yes.
It's Been a Minute
Poppers, the FDA, & a crackdown decades in the making
Yes. Well, first of all, I got to ask y'all just a little icebreaker. So do... Either of you identify as a 365 party girl?
It's Been a Minute
Poppers, the FDA, & a crackdown decades in the making
You know, a lot of people have expressed concern that this was yet another red flag from our current administration, that the government was targeting queer people. I wonder, how does cracking down on a substance, consciously or unconsciously, function as a crackdown on culture?
It's Been a Minute
Poppers, the FDA, & a crackdown decades in the making
Selena, Alex, I have learned so much here. Thank you both so much. Yeah, great to be here.
It's Been a Minute
Poppers, the FDA, & a crackdown decades in the making
And as a thank you, I'd like to teach you something by playing a game with the two of you. Can you stick around for a tiny bit longer? Oh, yeah, for sure. Sure. Love it. We'll be right back with a little game I like to call, What Did You Know? Stick around.
It's Been a Minute
Poppers, the FDA, & a crackdown decades in the making
All right, all right. We are going to play a round of But Did You Know? Here's how it works. I'm going to share three pop culture moments from the past week and ask you trivia related to each. This game is multiple choice means the right answers in there somewhere. And the first person to blurt out the right answer gets a point person. The most points wins and their prize is bragging rights.
It's Been a Minute
Poppers, the FDA, & a crackdown decades in the making
Are you ready to find out who really knows what's going on this week?
It's Been a Minute
Poppers, the FDA, & a crackdown decades in the making
Great. Let's do it. All right. Question number one. This past week, Donatella Versace stepped down from her post as chief creative officer for Versace. She's done a lot in her 30 years at the company, but which of these internet staples did she inspire? A, Apple iMessage, B, Instagram Stories, or C, Google Images?
It's Been a Minute
Poppers, the FDA, & a crackdown decades in the making
Well, Alex, you're correct. The answer is C, Google Images. Back in February 2000, Donatello Versace put Jennifer Lopez's And that iconic blue and green jungle print dress for the Grammys. And so many people searched for the image on the internet that Google was like, oh my God, we need to have an image section in our search engine. And thus Google Images was born.
It's Been a Minute
Poppers, the FDA, & a crackdown decades in the making
And that's all according to Google itself. We really do owe so much to Donatella. So thank you, Donatella. Thank you. Good for her. All right. Next question. It turns out the rumors were true. This week, which of these musicians went public with their alleged relationship? Was it A, Lady Gaga and Bruno Mars, B, Lucy Dacus and Julian Baker, or C, Kendrick Lamar and SZA?
It's Been a Minute
Poppers, the FDA, & a crackdown decades in the making
A 0-1-2 party girl. Yeah, a 0-1-2 party girl. I'm retired. I refer to myself as a retired 365 party girl. I really did used to be a 365 party girl.
It's Been a Minute
Poppers, the FDA, & a crackdown decades in the making
So yes, B. Well, the answer is B. You're both technically right, but Alex, you were first. Lucy Dacus and Julian Baker. The two gals are bandmates in the band Boy Genius alongside Phoebe Bridgers, to which I say I love love and I wish them all the happiness. Although I have never listened to Boy Genius.
It's Been a Minute
Poppers, the FDA, & a crackdown decades in the making
Right. I was watching the video this morning. Relationships. I was like, this is so good. This is so good. I got a question. Which two musicians do either of you wish would announce that they were dating?
It's Been a Minute
Poppers, the FDA, & a crackdown decades in the making
Yeah, like matchmaker. Let's matchmake or start a rumor. Who do you wish would say they were dating?
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Poppers, the FDA, & a crackdown decades in the making
Okay, I love this gossip because it sounds plausible. Right? They're very close. I love this matchmaking because I'm like, yeah, that sounds plausible. I'm into that. What about you, Alex?
It's Been a Minute
Poppers, the FDA, & a crackdown decades in the making
Oh, my God. Beyonce would have Rihanna up every day. She'd be like, get up, girl. Get in the studio. All right. Well, to recap the score, Selena, you are at zero points. And Alex, you are at two points.
It's Been a Minute
Artists vs. the White House
Well, Jay, you were right. The answer is Daniel Tiger. Yes, I have littles in my life, so I know. There's a song that I still know from that show. When accidents happen, you should tell someone and it can help. I watched it with my niece and I was like, yo, and then we were able to use it later that day. It's very cute, very effective, super helpful. Very effective.
It's Been a Minute
Artists vs. the White House
Well, the show Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood, an animated series for kids, has run since 2012 and centers on the tiger's adventures in the neighborhood of make-believe. There you go. All right. Well, that's it for But Did You Know? for this week. Congratulations to Jay on your win. I'll take it. Yes. And Joan, Jay, thank you both so much for joining me today.
It's Been a Minute
Artists vs. the White House
Truly. That was Paper Magazine's Joan Summers and New York Times Magazine's Jay Wortham. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Corey Antonio Rose. Barton Girdwood. This episode was edited by Jasmine Romero.
It's Been a Minute
Artists vs. the White House
Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
Artists vs. the White House
Let's get into it. Over the past couple of weeks, there's been some major leadership changes at the John F. Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts, a major cultural institution in Washington, D.C. that promotes the arts through nationwide programming, scholarships, events, and more.
It's Been a Minute
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And by honoring artists from Aretha Franklin to Stephen Sondheim, the Kennedy Center has become a symbol of the best the American performing arts community has to offer. The center has historically been run by a bipartisan board of trustees, but last week, President Trump replaced 18 members of the Kennedy Center board with his own picks.
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The new board then unanimously voted the president as chairman of the Kennedy Center for the first time in the center's history. For the record, President Trump, as of last week, said he had never been to the Kennedy Center and never attended the Kennedy Center honors during his first term as president.
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In the aftermath of this whole upheaval at the Kennedy Center, several artists have cut ties with the institution, from TV and film producer Shonda Rhimes to opera superstar Renee Fleming. Dancers have protested outside the building, specifically citing their concerns about the institution's future.
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And now with the nation's highest elected official at the helm of the nation's premier cultural institution that, again, it hosts lots of performances, but also provides scholarship, education, all these other opportunities outside the building, right? What does that signal for the broader arts community nationwide?
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But first, Joan, for the average Joe or Junie, why is the Kennedy Center important? Because I'll be honest, before, you know, when I was just a wee one and I was living, you know, in Michigan, I didn't think about the Kennedy Center that much. But I do know it's a large and important organization. But explain to listeners why.
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Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. This week, we're connecting the dots between the NFL, Aretha Franklin, and authoritarianism. I know. I know. How are all of these things connected?
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So no president, no president has taken an active leadership role with the Kennedy Center since it opened in 1971. So we're in uncharted territory right now. What are the implications of having a government-run or even government-influenced national cultural center? Jay, I'd love to hear from you first on this.
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We're discussing kind of what this shift or this change means for us here in America. But I mean, thinking about the world, right? The U.S. exports a lot of things. One of our biggest exports is American culture, and that includes art, movies, TV, music. American culture has created a lot of soft power, right?
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What does that power have the potential to look like in the hands of the Trump administration?
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I will say it was a big improvement from the 2017 inauguration 100%. Was it Jackie Evancho was the big headliner? This time, Carrie Underwood is a step up. Yeah. I'm being serious.
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Yeah, she definitely faced her fair share of criticism before the performance. She had technical difficulties during the performance. And then after the performance, Carrie Underwood's streaming numbers went down by 6%.
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thinking about this in a larger sense, Jay, what questions is all this bringing up for you?
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Well, we're going to find out with paper magazine writer and co-host of the podcast Eating for Free, Joan Summers, and New York Times magazine writer, Jay Wortham. Joan, Jay, welcome to It's Been a Minute. Hi. Hello. Who would you want to do your Kennedy Center tribute?
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To that point, we are in a moment where we're seeing our government take aggressive executive action towards the vision of culture and American identity that they want to see, from anti-DEI orders to anti-trans orders. executive orders.
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And this is also happening as more and more of our major cultural institutions, whether it's the Grammys or Saturday Night Live, and even major artists that themselves have become institutions like Beyonce, thinking about her halftime performance on Christmas Day, or Kendrick Lamar, thinking about his halftime performance at the Super Bowl this year.
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They're being met with mixed reactions, all of these institutions and major artists. They're when they try to comment on the moment. I mean, I wonder, in times like these, what is the role of the artist? And what do people, whether they want to admit it or not, want from artists in these moments?
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Jay, Joan, I have learned so much here. Thank you both so much. Yeah.
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Well, as a thank you to the both of you, I'd like to teach you something by playing a game with you all. Can you stick around for a tiny bit longer? Love a game.
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Yay. We'll be right back with a little game I like to call, What Did You Know? Stick around.
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All right, all right. We're going to play a little game I like to call, but did you know... Here's how it works. I'm going to share a story. And as I give you some background on the story, I'll also ask you trivia related to it. But don't worry, it's all multiple choice. And the first one to blurt out the right answer gets a point. Person with most points wins. And their prize is bragging rights.
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Are y'all ready? Yeah, please. Yes. All right. To start, this week marks 57 years since the first broadcast of the beloved children's show, Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood. But the show, as we know it today, was not the first iteration of the puppet palooza. In what country did an early version called Mr. Rogers air? A, the United Kingdom. B, France. C,
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Feels like something they would do. Well, unfortunately for you both, the answer is Canada. Dang it. Whoa. Mr. Rogers aired on the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, the CBC, for about four years, where several set pieces that would help define the American version, such as the trolley or the castle, were created. So there you go. All right, next question.
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Every single one. I know. So to recap the score, Joan, you are at zero points, and Jay, you are at zero points. Without further ado, the final tie-breaking question. Question number three. Daniel Tiger. Daniel Tiger. Jay says Daniel Tiger. What say you, Joan?
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Oh, I love that. Especially with the conversation we just had right now. Y'all got me ready to return to nature. All righty. Question number two. 2008 was a year of big political and cultural changes, namely the election of Barack Obama, the nation's first black president. He ran on a campaign of hope and change. With all that in mind, which color did Pantone choose for 2009's color of the year?
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Was it... A, mimosa, B, fuchsia rose, or C, marsala? C. Faisal, what do you say? Fuchsia rose. All righty. Well, I'm sorry. You both were wrong about this. The answer is A, mimosa. Pantone chose the color because, they said, in a time of economic uncertainty and political change, optimism is paramount and no other color expresses hope and reassurance more than yellow. Alrighty.
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Well, to recap the score, Fiza, you are at one point and Jenna, you are at zero points. Without further ado, the final question for our game winner, as in, if you get this question right. The whole kit and caboodle is wrapped up in a win for you, okay? 2020 had a huge impact on our daily lives, our health, the way we communicate, everything. I think we can all agree that's an understatement, okay?
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What was Pantone's color of the year for 2020? Was it A, illuminating and ultimate gray, B, classic blue, or C, very peri?
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Whether it's the government or private companies collecting our data, it always feels like somebody's watching me. So I have to ask, why are we so okay with constantly being watched? And have we unknowingly negotiated a new social contract?
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Well, unfortunately... We're both wrong again? You're both wrong again. The answer for the color of the year in 2020 was B, classic blue. symbolizing protection, stability, peace, and confidence. I have to say, I feel like a lot of us were lacking peace, stability, and confidence in 2020.
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Pantone, what do you know? What do you know? Let me know. Come on the show. Tell me. All righty. Well, that's it for But Did You Know for this week. Congratulations to Faiza on your win. Congrats. Yay. Yay. And... Jenna, Faiza, thank you both so much for joining me today. This was great. Thanks. This was fun. Thanks. That was NPR's Jenna McLaughlin and the Brennan Center for Justice's Faiza Patel.
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I'm going to take a quick break. And when I get back, we're getting into the best books of the year, including one that gave one of our guests a bodily reaction. I just got chills. Stick around.
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What's up? What's not up? It's the end of the year. You know what I'm saying? I feel like everyone's giving their media picks for the year, their books, their movies, their favorite articles.
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Oh, I absolutely have favorite articles. I still think about how, I think it was in 2019, perhaps, or 2018, my mind was rocked by Taffy Brodesser-Akner's profile of Gwyneth Paltrow.
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That's incredible. What about you, Andrew? 53? You heard it here. My guests today, NPR Arts Desk reporter Andrew Limbaugh and Tracy Thomas, host of the Stacks podcast, really are in the stacks. The reason they're here today is because they've got a bird's eye view of what happened in books this year. And let me tell you, we are telling on ourselves in our literature.
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So they're going to help me break down some of the big themes in this year's books. Marriage, money, and what writing is even for. And later, some recommendations for 2024's best books. Tracy, I want to hear from you. What themes or trends are you seeing in this year's books?
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You know, it's funny. We just had Waylon Wong from The Indicator on for an episode about dating up in class. And it reminded me of this stat that Waylon had brought to us. Investopedia calculated the cost of the American dream in 2023, which includes a house, sending two kids to college, vacations, etc.
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And it was over $4 million, which is $1 million more than most Americans make in their lifetimes. Wow. I think a lot of us are feeling that lack. Yeah. And it's definitely coming through in our books. Yeah, I think that's right. Andrew, what about you? I would love to hear what major themes or trends are you noticing in books this year?
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Truly, truly. Andrew, tell me the story of the book without spoilers.
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I've been thinking about what themes I have seen this year. And the trend I want to share is divorce memoirs. Now, divorce memoirs are definitely not new, but we are seeing some new takes on them. This year, we had This American Ex-Wife by Liz Lenz and Splinters by Leslie Jameson.
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And next year, we've got Sucker Punch by Scotchy Coolcoming and No Fault by Hayley Melodic, which I've been waiting for that book for a long time. I'm excited about it. But interestingly enough, divorce rates have actually dropped over the last 10 years. So while it's not necessarily reflecting like a greater trend, I do think that these books reflect that this is definitely, A millennial thing.
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Like these writers are all millennials and our generation is reaching an age where first marriages are not working out.
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But I mean, yeah, I mean, I think though that like, that does speak to not just, even if you are not going through a divorce, you haven't just been through one. I think divorce is one of those things. That transfixes people because everyone wants to know how it happened so that they can prevent it from happening to them.
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It's the same reason why often, this is gruesome, but many people want to know what someone died of or how they passed away because they want to know, is there something in that information that I can find? And I think right now, at least speaking anecdotally, there's a lot of millennials who are going through divorces, perhaps first divorces or the ending of their first marriage.
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These things are not new. Like each generation before us wrote theirs. I think about Nora Ephron's Heartburn, which if you are into audio books, baby, that audio book is read by Meryl Streep. It's a goodie. OK, that's like the divorce novel par excellence. Right. Ann Patchett's This is the Story of a Happy Marriage. That's kind of like your boomer book. I don't know.
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Some of these books talk about how messed up the institution of marriage still is, the burdens women still carry. And I think that their popularity this year seemingly going into the next is indicative of how for many women the prospect of heterosexual marriage might not have changed that much in the decades upon decades that women have been writing these divorce memoirs.
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All right, so we've talked about some of the things that you're seeing in books, but I really want to know what your favorites of this year were. Tracy, let's start with you. What's one of your picks for the best of the year?
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I feel like that's a fact that a lot of people just are not aware of, just how much our information the U.S. government is buying from private companies.
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First of all, you sold me on this book. Thinking about the way that narrative comes together. That's why I love nonfiction books, because sometimes it's just like somebody really puts their foot in it. And it just it feels like you're watching a movie, but it's like research. And it's like, how did you do it? Yes. Andrew, what about you?
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What is your first favorite that you're going to share with us today from this year?
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Right, yeah, who's driving?
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Okay, I'm going to share one of my favorite books from this year. I love a good old-fashioned audiobook. When listening to an audiobook, I love memoirs because they're often read by the people who've written them. And this one I was just curious to read and I pressed play and I ended up really enjoying it. It's Connie Chung's memoir titled Connie. Mm-hmm.
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Connie was the first woman to co-anchor the CBS Evening News and reportedly also the first Asian person to anchor any news program in America. I used to watch her on TV when I was a kid. Like, I still have very vivid memories of sitting in front of the television. Probably too close. That's probably why I can't see today. watching her deliver the news. I mean, when she came on, I was glued.
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And when she was let go from the evening news in 1995, I kind of felt like she disappeared. We all know the old adage in journalism, you're the journalist, you the journalist are not supposed to be the story. So it was really great to get to know her better through reading her book and to find out where she's been for the last 30 years.
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Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. This week, we're connecting the dots between a backpack, drones, and TikTok. I know, I know. How are all of these things connected?
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But one of the things I love the most about reading it is that even though she was somebody who was known for being cool, calm, collected, asking sharp questions, getting the story. She still was like, you know, she had the comportment of somebody who delivered national news. I didn't know she was so funny. I didn't know she was so tough. I mean, she had so much grit.
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She opened up about surviving sexual abuse by a family doctor. going toe-to-toe with Dan Rather at CBS. I mean, she was denied so many things in her career. She had to fight for so many things. She has such a potty mouth and such like a funny way of looking at and describing the things that she went through. But to me, this was kind of like the platonic ideal of a memoir.
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It was really well written. It actually seemed to have been written by the person whose name was on the cover of the book, which is not always the case. It was really, really, really interesting to hear from her in her own words how she saw her career, and now how she understands her impact on younger generations.
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I'm sold. Oh my gosh. That was great. It was great. Okay.
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Loved it. Loved it. We had Carvel on the show. Loved it. Say more.
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I mean, I have to second that. It was one of my favorite books of the year as well. What's the thing that you learned from the book that affected you the most?
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What's the next book on your list?
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There's a common thought that you're either a retail person or a food service person. I was a retail girlie, okay? I was an orgy girl. I worked at Nordstrom back in the day in the lingerie department. Working in a department store, sometimes I felt like how Tony Soprano felt at the beginning of Sopranos. Like the best days were behind me and I'd come in at the end of something, okay?
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I mean, this book really actually made me really think that I was probably right about that assumption. It's a nonfiction book. About the 20th century rise of the American department store. As told through the lives of three women who led three major department stores spanning from the early 1900s to the 1980s.
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It covers everything from things that you would never think would even be connected to department stores, like the formation of Jim Crow laws, to second wave feminism, to the advent of the shopping mall. But it reads like a Jacqueline Suzanne novel. It is so juicy and so good at depicting what it felt like.
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I mean, not that I was there, but what it probably felt like to be in New York or to be in a department store, to actually like... to close your eyes and be in a center of luxury. Like department stores back in the day sold like exotic animals. They had pet departments where you could buy like baby tigers. How chic.
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I mean, this book has corporate espionage, glamorous outfit descriptions, snapshots of mid-century New York City, and also like a lot about like the push-pull of what it means for a woman to quote-unquote have it all. All of the women that are depicted in this book are dealing with what it meant to be a working woman.
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If you're interested in Mad Men, if you enjoyed watching Mrs. Maisel, if you're interested in fashion history or Valley of the Dolls, like myself, this might be the book for you. This probably is a book you're going to love. But also, I would say, even if you're not interested in any of those things, I would still say that this was a book that you would love.
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Thank you both so much. I'm like so invigorated by your recommendations. I don't even know what to do. And maybe next year. Maybe next year I'm going to catch up with y'all. Come on. Let's do it. There's enough books for all of us. So true. Thanks again to Tracy Thomas, host of the Stacks podcast, and Andrew Limbaugh, NPR Arts Desk correspondent.
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And I want to know, what were your favorite books of the year? Sound off in the Spotify comments or let us know at ibam at npr.org. That's I-B-A-M at N-P-R dot O-R-G. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Barton Girdwood, Alexis Williams, Liam McBain, Corey Antonio Rose. This episode was edited by Jasmine Romero. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini.
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All right, that's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
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What has begun to feel different for me in this moment, but also specifically in the case of Luigi Mangione, is the occasional participation of companies. In the case of Mangione, Peak Design CEO Peter Daring reached out to the police after multiple people alerted him that the alleged shooter appeared to be wearing his company's backpack.
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Well, we're going to find out with NPR's Jenna McLaughlin and the Brennan Center for Justice's Faiza Patel. Jenna, Faiza, welcome to It's Been a Minute. Great to be here. Thanks for having us. Happy to have you both. So last week, we covered the Luigi Mangione case and what it says about the larger feeling toward health care in this country.
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After some backlash, Peak Design released a statement clarifying that they, quote, had not provided customer information to the police and would only do so under the order of a subpoena. But that still made me wonder about how things like our shopping data that you brought up, Faiza, is being used. What kind of precedent does that set for consumers?
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Gosh, I feel like that's kind of a bad situation for the consumer to be in.
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Right, right. You know, thinking about data, TikTok is back in the news again. It looks like the app is still on the chopping block due to possible threats to national security and data privacy. But our own government buys data on Americans as well. What do you think about that?
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But there's one part of that conversation that I wanted to poke at a little more. The photos authorities used to ID Mangione. In Starbucks, in the taxi, and in the hostel, Mangione's face was captured by surveillance cameras. And granted, he was in Midtown New York City, one of the most heavily watched areas in the world.
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Like the kind of stuff you don't want anybody to have, basically.
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Just to make this clear, the kind of information that the United States government is currently worried that perhaps China could be collecting from Americans' TikTok usage is is also the kind of data that the US government can purchase from data brokers. And that information is also available to other entities who want to buy it.
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Right. That is a very, very, very interesting point, especially since there are various US companies like Meta or X, formerly Twitter, who have also been accused of having algorithms that manipulate public opinion. Very interesting point. You know, there are a lot of people that
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look at the kinds of data and the amount of data that is being collected on them and kind of shrug their shoulders, you know, because they may feel like there's nothing that they can do about it. And also they may feel like there's nothing they're doing wrong.
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But when I think about the incoming administration, I wonder what this kind of data collection and what this kind of surveillance means for issues like abortion and immigration.
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But I thought it was really striking that no one seemed concerned about how easy it was for authorities to follow his every move. In fact, a lot of people were surprised he wasn't caught sooner. Constant surveillance is something we've kind of come to expect in this country. Cameras on the streets, when you enter a store, even in the self-checkout lines, more cameras.
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You know, okay, what can be done on a societal level to protect consumers and to protect American people, that very specific data from being used against them or ending up in what some people might think of as the wrong hands?
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Sounds like until we get some comprehensive laws passed, our data privacy will continue to be at the mercy of private companies and their judgments on what they are willing to share. So let me just delete this app real quick. Thank you both so much. I really appreciate this conversation. I have learned so much here. Thank you. Thanks so much. Thank you.
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And as a thank you, I'd like to teach you something by playing a game with the two of you. Can you stick around for a tiny bit longer?
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We'll be right back with a little game I like to call, but did you know? Stick around.
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And haven't we all joked about how our phones are listening to us when we get a super specific Instagram ad? And now there are drones flying over New Jersey and no one seems to know whose they are or what they're doing. I feel like there's been a shift, at least for me, in the way we talk about being watched.
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All right, all right. We are going to play a little game I like to call, But Did You Know? Here's how it works. I'm going to share a story that's been making headlines this week. And as I give you some background of the story, I'll also ask you trivia related to it. But don't worry. It's all multiple choice. The right answer is in there somewhere.
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Drones, TikTok & Luigi Mangione have us asking: who's watching us?
And the first one to blurt out the right answer gets a point. Person with the most points wins. And their prize is bragging rights. Are y'all ready? Let's go. All right. I love this enthusiasm. Okay. To start... As we close in on the quarter of the century, Pantone has unveiled the 2025 color of the year, mocha mousse.
It's Been a Minute
Drones, TikTok & Luigi Mangione have us asking: who's watching us?
It's described as a mellow brown infused with a sensorial and comforting warmth. The color of the year tradition has been around since 1999. So it's only right to ask, what was the first Pantone color of the year? Was it A, Tangerine Tango, B, Peach Fuzz, or C, Cerulean? Cerulean. I'm going to go with Peach Fuzz. All right. Faiza says Cerulean. Jenna says Peach Fuzz.
It's Been a Minute
Drones, TikTok & Luigi Mangione have us asking: who's watching us?
Well, Faiza, you guessed right. The answer is C, Cerulean. Cerulean. The color symbolized tranquility for the new millennium. And so that makes me wonder, what are each of your colors of the year 2025? Mine's always the same. Navy. Navy. FISA. Classic Navy. Okay. I like that. And Jenna, what about you? I'm going to go with forest green.
It's Been a Minute
Are men in your life getting more political? This guy may be why.
That was NPR's Gene Demby and The Ringer's Joel Anderson. And I'm going to put on my influencer hat for a minute and ask you to please subscribe to this show on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you're listening. Click follow so you know the latest in culture while it's still hot. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Corey Bridges. This episode was edited by Nina Potok.
It's Been a Minute
Are men in your life getting more political? This guy may be why.
are not really a sports fan, I'd argue that we still need to pay attention to this box newsification of sports media, meaning it's personality driven, it's bombastic, it thrives off of conflict, and it's increasingly concerned with politics. For instance, ESPN used to be a place to watch the highlights, and now it's where you go to watch endless debates and hot takes.
It's Been a Minute
Are men in your life getting more political? This guy may be why.
Our supervising producer is Barton Girdwood. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
Are men in your life getting more political? This guy may be why.
And then there's ESPN's own Stephen A. Smith. He is known for his loud and brash style on his daily debate show, First Take.
It's Been a Minute
Are men in your life getting more political? This guy may be why.
He's also one of the most powerful television sports personalities and just signed a massive $100 million contract with ESPN. And one clause in that contract caught my attention. It's a clause that gives him more freedom to talk about politics. And he's taking full advantage of this, as seen in his recent interview with ABC News.
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Are men in your life getting more political? This guy may be why.
So yeah, we live in a timeline where a man paid to sling hot takes about LeBron James is claiming that many people want him to become the next president of the United States.
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Are men in your life getting more political? This guy may be why.
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. This week, we're connecting the dots between LeBron James, Bristol, Connecticut, and the 2028 election. I know, I know. How are all of these things connected?
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Are men in your life getting more political? This guy may be why.
I've had folks— So what does that say about our current cultural and political environment? Why have sports commentators become so omnipresent in media outside their lane? And what can history tell us about the connection between sports and politics? But first, for listeners like myself, who may not be super up on sports, who is Stephen A. Smith and what is he about? What is this whole situation?
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Are men in your life getting more political? This guy may be why.
Okay, so I can see how, based on what you said, he would want to run for office or at least say that that's something that he's going to do. Because you can get some juice off of just saying that that's something that you want to do.
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Are men in your life getting more political? This guy may be why.
But I wonder though, like what does Stephen A. Smith believe? Like what are his politics?
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Are men in your life getting more political? This guy may be why.
Pat McAfee is another sportscaster who's been criticized for wading into politics. He was called out for platforming quarterback Aaron Rodgers' conspiracy theories during COVID. And, you know, McAfee came to ESPN from Barstool Sports, which is a media company with... a real bro-y feel that really seems to resonate with a younger conservative audience.
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Are men in your life getting more political? This guy may be why.
And it's even at times been, I suppose, like credited for shaping some of the discourse within, you know, conservative American politics.
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Are men in your life getting more political? This guy may be why.
Hmm. Especially in the world of sports. That totally makes sense. Absolutely. But, okay. I'm remembering back to 2017 when former ESPN personality Jamel Hill tweeted, Donald Trump, who was then, you know, at the beginning of his first term, Donald Trump is a white supremacist who has largely surrounded himself with other white supremacists.
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Are men in your life getting more political? This guy may be why.
Well, we are going to find out with co-host of NPR's Code Switch podcast, Gene Demby, and former senior writer at ESPN and current senior staff writer at The Ringer, Joel Anderson. Gene, Joel, welcome to It's Been a Minute. Welcome back to It's Been a Minute. You both have been here before.
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Are men in your life getting more political? This guy may be why.
And there was a huge backlash.
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Are men in your life getting more political? This guy may be why.
That is why it is so wild.
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Are men in your life getting more political? This guy may be why.
So I wonder, like, what's changed since then? I mean, why does it seem like sportscasters have so much more latitude to be able to talk about politics now, a time that I argue is just as much, if not more highly charged politically than 2017?
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Are men in your life getting more political? This guy may be why.
It's like its own taxonomy, basically.
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Are men in your life getting more political? This guy may be why.
It's good to have you. Okay, quick question. Who do y'all have winning the NBA finals? I don't know the answer to this question because I don't even know who's in the NBA semifinals, quarterfinals. I don't know who plays. I don't know who's in there.
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Are men in your life getting more political? This guy may be why.
Well, oh my gosh, Joel, Gene, I have learned so much here. Thank you both so much. I appreciate you always, Brenda. Our pleasure. Have us back. Yeah, of course. But before you go, as a thank you, I'd like to teach you something by playing a game with the two of you. Can you stick around for a tiny bit longer?
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Are men in your life getting more political? This guy may be why.
All right. We'll be right back with a little game I like to call, But Did You Know? Stick around.
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Are men in your life getting more political? This guy may be why.
All right, all right. We are going to play a little game. I like to call, but did you know? Here's how it works. I'm going to share a story that's been making headlines this week. And as I give you some background on the story, I'll also ask you trivia related to it. But don't worry. It's all multiple choice. The right answer is in there somewhere.
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Are men in your life getting more political? This guy may be why.
First person to blurt out the right answer gets a point. Person with the most points wins. And their prize is bragging rights.
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Are men in your life getting more political? This guy may be why.
Don't worry, the news story this week is something that even a so-called wash dad would know about, okay? Question number one. Earlier this week, Jeff Bezos' Blue Origin completed a highly publicized mission to space featuring a star-studded crew that included Katy Perry, Gayle King, and Bezos' very own fiancee, Lauren Sanchez. How long did this flight last? Was it...
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Are men in your life getting more political? This guy may be why.
A, 11 minutes, B, 18 minutes, or C, 26 minutes?
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Are men in your life getting more political? This guy may be why.
I'm going to go on the opposite end.
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Are men in your life getting more political? This guy may be why.
Oh, Joel, you have so much more faith in that. You have so much more faith. I appreciate it, but the answer is A, 11 minutes.
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Are men in your life getting more political? This guy may be why.
Well, the flight took the women 62 miles above Earth, crossing the recognized boundary of space. So basically, they just crossed into space.
It's Been a Minute
Are men in your life getting more political? This guy may be why.
And then they turned right back around. They basically were in space long enough to have a few moments of weightlessness, which I have to ask y'all now, would you ever get on a rocket ship?
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Are men in your life getting more political? This guy may be why.
Me either. I just don't. I just feel like. Did anybody else read the story of Icarus? Yeah. Why would I fly that close to the sun? We are all in accordance. No ongoing space for 11 minutes. All right. Question number two. Gayle King, she looked a little shook after exiting the capsule, but apparently Katy Perry wasn't.
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Are men in your life getting more political? This guy may be why.
What song did Gayle say Katy Perry was singing while staring back at Earth from space? Was it A, Fly Me to the Moon, B, Rocket Man, or C, What a Wonderful World?
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Are men in your life getting more political? This guy may be why.
It would be appropriate, but unfortunately, the answer is C, What a Wonderful World.
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Are men in your life getting more political? This guy may be why.
So you got a competitive edge.
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Are men in your life getting more political? This guy may be why.
Without further ado, the final question. And I'm just going to do a little something that I love to do in these situations when the score is a little stacked. Yeah. Question number three is going to be winner takes all. Okay. Winner take all.
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Are men in your life getting more political? This guy may be why.
Well, these are the kinds of conversations that you'd expect to hear in your typical sports talk television show. However, there has been an interesting shift in the sports media world. The sports bros are getting political. And hear me out. If you, like me...
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Are men in your life getting more political? This guy may be why.
We just want to keep things interesting. Okay. We got to keep it interesting. All right. Question number three. Space tourism doesn't appear like it's going to be available to the average person anytime soon. And while full ticket prices haven't been set for future Blue Origin space flights, what is the deposit required to reserve a seat? Is it... A, $150,000. B, $250,000. Or C, $350,000.
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Are men in your life getting more political? This guy may be why.
I feel like I would be inclined to say it wasn't the hiring, just because.
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Are men in your life getting more political? This guy may be why.
Ja Rule. Yeah, right, Ja Rule, yeah.
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Are men in your life getting more political? This guy may be why.
So what did each of you say? Oh, man.
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Are men in your life getting more political? This guy may be why.
I'm like, who knows? Maybe down the line, I'll break off some retirement change and skedaddle on up. And by then, it could be even cheaper. So who knows? Who knows? Who knows?
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Are men in your life getting more political? This guy may be why.
No, I'm not going to go up there. Like I said, they don't have like, I can't go to Cheesecake Factory in space. I can't hang out with my friends. I can't text.
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Are men in your life getting more political? This guy may be why.
Well, listen, until there's a Cheesecake Factory in space, they can keep it on the playground. That is it for But Did You Know for this week. Congratulations to Gene on your win. And again, Gene, Joel, thank you both so much for joining me today. It's so great.
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Is fact-checking "censorship?" Why Meta's changes are a win for conservatives.
The social media landscape in the U.S. is changing fast. While TikTok is potentially on its way out, Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg announced his platforms, aka Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp, and so forth, We'll be taking a step back from fact-checking.
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Is fact-checking "censorship?" Why Meta's changes are a win for conservatives.
We love you, L.A. Love, all of us. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Barton Girdwood. Corey Antonio Rose. This episode was edited by Jasmine Romero. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
Is fact-checking "censorship?" Why Meta's changes are a win for conservatives.
I want to draw attention to the word censorship. It's the word some Republican lawmakers have used to describe efforts to combat misinformation online. In the same announcement, Zuckerberg said, Now, all this signals a vast shift in the social media landscape. One major social media platform could go dark in the United States.
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Is fact-checking "censorship?" Why Meta's changes are a win for conservatives.
While the CEO of several of the biggest platforms we have left is doubling down on culture war politics. And people are wondering, where do we go from here? Naomi, when it comes to the relationship between disinformation and social media, how would you characterize the moment we're in right now?
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Is fact-checking "censorship?" Why Meta's changes are a win for conservatives.
Gosh, so it sounds like we are moving toward a place where people will be gathering and fewer and fewer sort of like big town square kind of... locations online the way that Twitter used to be or that TikTok kind of is, or I suppose maybe in the future was for a lot of people. People will kind of be in their own silos and also looking at in some cases, maybe their own versions of what facts are.
It's Been a Minute
Is fact-checking "censorship?" Why Meta's changes are a win for conservatives.
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. All right, here we go. This week, we're connecting the dots between alleged bullying, fact-checking, and Russian election interference. I know, I know. How are all these things connected?
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Is fact-checking "censorship?" Why Meta's changes are a win for conservatives.
Is that kind of what you're saying?
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Is fact-checking "censorship?" Why Meta's changes are a win for conservatives.
This Zuckerberg announcement that these metaprograms are going to be rolled back is coming after his claims of bullying from the Biden administration. And there are some people, some critics saying that Zuckerberg is pandering to the new Trump administration. Jingnan, can you give us a breakdown of Meta's history with the White House and how this moment might be different?
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Is fact-checking "censorship?" Why Meta's changes are a win for conservatives.
We do turn now to a story breaking overnight. Facebook's Mark Zuckerberg claims he was pressured by the White House to censor content related to COVID-19 during the pandemic.
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Is fact-checking "censorship?" Why Meta's changes are a win for conservatives.
I mean, you know, like Zuckerberg made some accusations saying that the Biden administration would call his employees and yell at them until they took their content off their platforms. I mean, it sounds like this could be perhaps, you know, old business dressed up in new clothes for a new president.
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Is fact-checking "censorship?" Why Meta's changes are a win for conservatives.
Right. And in an interview with Fox & Friends, Meta Chief Global Affairs Officer Joel Kaplan further clarified this reasoning.
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Is fact-checking "censorship?" Why Meta's changes are a win for conservatives.
Well, we're going to find out with NPR's Huo Jingnan and The Washington Post tech reporter Naomi Nix. Jingnan, Naomi, welcome to It's Been a Minute. Hello. Hi. What is your favorite dearly departed app? I got to say for me, My top two, probably Vine and the Kim Kardashian Hollywood game.
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Is fact-checking "censorship?" Why Meta's changes are a win for conservatives.
Like you said, that's the call that Meta would make. not the actual fact checkers. That's interesting. Well, I want to talk about another change that we are seeing at Meta. Meta has also revised its hate speech policy. The latest guidelines now allow allegations that LGBTQ plus people are mentally ill because they are gay or transgender.
It's Been a Minute
Is fact-checking "censorship?" Why Meta's changes are a win for conservatives.
Coming up, what Meta's new guidelines might mean for the safety of LGBTQ people online.
It's Been a Minute
Is fact-checking "censorship?" Why Meta's changes are a win for conservatives.
I want to talk about another change that we are seeing at Meta. Meta has also revised its hate speech policy. The latest guidelines now allow allegations that LGBTQ plus people are mentally ill because they are gay or transgendered. Here's what the guidelines say now.
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Is fact-checking "censorship?" Why Meta's changes are a win for conservatives.
Quote, I do want to note here the use of transgenderism and homosexuality, which are words primarily used by people who want to denounce queer people. On top of that, Facebook will also move its trust safety and content moderation team from California to Texas in a move that Zuckerberg said was intended to quell concerns of political bias.
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Is fact-checking "censorship?" Why Meta's changes are a win for conservatives.
And both Meta and Amazon are scaling back their DEI initiatives. So that's a lot. That's a lot happening at one time. I wonder what do these changes mean for marginalized communities in online spaces?
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Is fact-checking "censorship?" Why Meta's changes are a win for conservatives.
Is it worth it? Yeah, it's a very good, it seems like it's a question that's going to be coming up a lot in the future in regard to some of these platforms. But Naomi, I'd love to hear from you.
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Is fact-checking "censorship?" Why Meta's changes are a win for conservatives.
Yeah, it still exists, but it's not anywhere near as engaging as it used to be. I think I miss the time when I don't have to look at apps anymore. Here's the thing. We do not know the fate of one of this country's most used apps, TikTok. Will Trump be able to save the app or will it shut down because of a law passed last year? Time will tell. But here's something we do know.
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Is fact-checking "censorship?" Why Meta's changes are a win for conservatives.
They, in a big way, are moving the goalposts on what constitutes acceptable. civil engagement.
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Is fact-checking "censorship?" Why Meta's changes are a win for conservatives.
Bespoke realities. That's a really that's that's a very helpful and sobering clarification. I really appreciate that. Jingnan, Naomi, I have learned so much here. Thank you both so much. Thank you. Thanks for having us. That was NPR reporter Guo Jingnan and Washington Post tech reporter Naomi Nix. I want us all to pause for a moment and show some love to the city of Los Angeles.
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Is fact-checking "censorship?" Why Meta's changes are a win for conservatives.
For the past week, wildfires have ripped across the L.A. area. I have been heartbroken seeing images of the wreckage, and I know many of you have been too. We know these places and we know people who've had to evacuate. L.A. is an iconic city. It lives in our collective imaginations, but it's also a very real place that millions of people call home.
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Is fact-checking "censorship?" Why Meta's changes are a win for conservatives.
So I reached out to the NPR staff and the public to share what makes Los Angeles so special to them. Here is our love letter to L.A.
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Diddy, Cassie, & the anatomy of "mutual abuse"
Wow. You both have given me so much to think about with this conversation. And like I said, regardless of what happens in the courtroom, regardless what the outcome of this trial is or what the jury decides, they always coincide with big swells in conversation about very difficult topics. And so I really appreciate you both bringing so much to this conversation.
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Diddy, Cassie, & the anatomy of "mutual abuse"
I think it's what a lot of people need to hear. So thank you both so much. Thank you for having us. Thank you so much. That was author Beverly Gooden and Loyola University law professor Lori Levinson. And I'm going to put on my influencer hat for a second and ask you to please subscribe to this show on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you're listening.
It's Been a Minute
Diddy, Cassie, & the anatomy of "mutual abuse"
Click follow so you know the latest in culture while it's still hot. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Corey Bridges. This episode was edited by Nina Pathak. Our supervising producer is Barton Girdwood. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right, that's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce.
It's Been a Minute
Diddy, Cassie, & the anatomy of "mutual abuse"
Diddy, is a music mogul and business executive known for his Bad Boy Entertainment music label and his associations with various celebrities in Hollywood. And now he's facing federal charges of sex trafficking and racketeering. One of Diddy's primary accusers is the R&B singer Cassie Ventura, with whom he had an on and off relationship for over a decade.
It's Been a Minute
Diddy, Cassie, & the anatomy of "mutual abuse"
And she claims that she went through years of abuse during their relationship, which ended in 2018. Diddy pleaded not guilty to all charges. Federal prosecutors have alluded to a trove of evidence against him, including video documentation, surveillance footage, witness testimony, firearms, drugs, and more, suggesting that he wasn't following the law.
It's Been a Minute
Diddy, Cassie, & the anatomy of "mutual abuse"
So it caught my attention when I read a Washington Post article quoting defense attorney Mark Agnifilo, saying there was hitting on both sides and we're going to take the position that there was mutual violence in the relationship. This concept, often referred to as, quote, mutual violence or mutual abuse, suggests that both parties engaged in abusive behavior.
It's Been a Minute
Diddy, Cassie, & the anatomy of "mutual abuse"
And it might sound familiar to anyone who has followed celebrity abuse trials in the past. So I wanted to talk to Bev and Lori to understand what is mutual abuse in a legal context? Where have we seen this tactic used before? And could this strategy really help Diddy avoid a potential life sentence in federal prison?
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Diddy, Cassie, & the anatomy of "mutual abuse"
But it wasn't mutual abuse. Yeah, this idea of mutual abuse is something that I've seen floated by Diddy's legal team as a potential strategy. It was a part of their opening statement. Bev, could you define what mutual abuse could mean to Diddy's team?
It's Been a Minute
Diddy, Cassie, & the anatomy of "mutual abuse"
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. All right, all right. This week, we are connecting the dots between R&B, racketeering, and Amber Heard. I know. I know. How are all of these things connected?
It's Been a Minute
Diddy, Cassie, & the anatomy of "mutual abuse"
As our legal expert, Lori, is mutual abuse a viable defense strategy?
It's Been a Minute
Diddy, Cassie, & the anatomy of "mutual abuse"
Okay. Okay. So Lori, you're saying that mutual abuse is not really a legal defense strategy. And Bev, you described mutual abuse as not even like a true concept in terms of how patterns of abuse work. So I wonder, Bev, why is it so easy for many people to believe that mutual abuse is a thing?
It's Been a Minute
Diddy, Cassie, & the anatomy of "mutual abuse"
You know, I find it interesting that Diddy's defense team is citing mutual abuse as part of their defense strategy because in doing so, they have to concede that he took part in abusive behavior on some level. So, Lori, why might the defense see this as a beneficial strategy?
It's Been a Minute
Diddy, Cassie, & the anatomy of "mutual abuse"
Coming up, why it can be so hard for us to recognize abusive behavior in the people we look up to.
It's Been a Minute
Diddy, Cassie, & the anatomy of "mutual abuse"
Well, we're going to find out with author Beverly Gooden and Loyola University law professor Lori Levinson. Bev, Lori, welcome to It's Been a Minute.
It's Been a Minute
Diddy, Cassie, & the anatomy of "mutual abuse"
You know, I remember seeing the Amber Heard and Johnny Depp trial unfold on television, across social media, newspapers and magazines, and seeing a similar kind of reframe in mutual abuse come up a lot. One of Diddy's primary accusers is the R&B singer Cassie Ventura, with whom he had an on-and-off relationship for over a decade.
It's Been a Minute
Diddy, Cassie, & the anatomy of "mutual abuse"
And she claims that she went through years of abuse during their relationship, which ended in 2018. Critics of Cassie and other women who have alleged similar abuse in their relationships, they often ask, why would this person stay in the relationship so long? Bev, could you help us understand why domestic violence situations can be so difficult to escape from?
It's Been a Minute
Diddy, Cassie, & the anatomy of "mutual abuse"
So first off, what is your favorite courtroom drama? My Cousin Vinny. Oh, that's a good one. Mine is not a drama. Technically, it's not a drama. But there was drama going on in the courtroom, and that's Legally Blonde.
It's Been a Minute
Diddy, Cassie, & the anatomy of "mutual abuse"
Mm-hmm. I'm thinking about how all of this reverberates outside of the courtroom, regardless of what the outcome of this case is, regardless of what the jury finds.
It's Been a Minute
Diddy, Cassie, & the anatomy of "mutual abuse"
As we've seen happen many times before, whether it was the OJ Simpson case or the Johnny Depp and Amber Heard trial, or even in situations where things didn't necessarily escalate to a trial, like in the case of Chris Brown and Rihanna back in the 2000s. These...
It's Been a Minute
Diddy, Cassie, & the anatomy of "mutual abuse"
very public allegations of domestic violence or abusive situations that we as the public become aware of later, they generate so much conversation on social media, in barbershops, beauty salons, group chats, all the time. I find that the way that these cases are framed or covered really affects the way that everyday people understand abuse and talk about it with each other.
It's Been a Minute
Diddy, Cassie, & the anatomy of "mutual abuse"
I'd love to hear from both of you on this. How do you see the possible reverberations of this mutual abuse strategy rippling outward into how everyday people think about abuse? Lori, I'd love to hear from you first on this.
It's Been a Minute
Diddy, Cassie, & the anatomy of "mutual abuse"
No way! Oh, my goodness. Lori, that's so major. Oh, my goodness. A celebrity. Wow. Oh, my gosh. Well, I'll tell you what. Right now, out in the world, we have a courtroom drama that I wish I could say was fiction with a criminal case against Sean Combs beginning this week. Sean Combs, a.k.a.
It's Been a Minute
Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
Should she have a baby or be the world's biggest pop star?
It's Been a Minute
Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
When you picture how the restaurant industry is depicted in pop culture, what do you see? Well, you might see the kitchen crew from The Bear on FX. Dripping in sweat over painstakingly assembled plates of gourmet food. Maybe you see a fancy group of diners in a shishi restaurant on a remote Scandinavian island, like something out of the menu.
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
That's what makes his food so exciting. He's not just a chef. He's a storyteller.
It's Been a Minute
Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
You may even picture the difficult-to-please Anton Ego, the prim and grim French food critic from Disney's Ratatouille.
It's Been a Minute
Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
Whatever you picture, it's probably a far cry from how most of us eat. Even some of your favorite food writers.
It's Been a Minute
Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
It was great. It was really good. At least something positive came out of it. That was Lindsey C. Green, James Beard Award-winning restaurant critic for the Detroit Free Press and New York Times food writer, Korsha Wilson. And before you judge them for eating in their cars, look in the mirror.
It's Been a Minute
Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
Turns out just over half of Americans regularly eat in their cars, which makes a lot of us no different than TikTok superstar Keith Lee, the former MMA fighter who now might be America's hottest restaurant critic.
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
He's gained over 16 million followers on TikTok, getting takeout from local mom-and-pop restaurants around the country and rating each meal on a scale of 1 to 10. And when he really loves a spot, he'll tip big money to the restaurant owners.
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
Since his food reviews began blowing up, Keith has scored lucrative sponsorships with brands like DoorDash and Wingstop, partnered with celebrities like Mr. Beast and Cardi B. We're going to tell you the truth.
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
And was even lampooned on SNL.
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
But his success has not come without controversy. As Keith has taken his reviews outside of his former home base of Las Vegas and moved on to critiquing the food scenes of New York, Atlanta, D.C., and other big cities, it got personal.
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
It's an age-old debate here in the DMV. Does this region have a good food scene? TikTok influencer Keith Lee says no.
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
And some viewers have been downright upset when Keith doesn't love their favorite food city.
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
And as Keith often seeks out hot wings, burgers, and pizza wherever he goes, some viewers have been frustrated by what they see as a lack of effort or research on Keith's part to understand the unique food cultures of the cities he visits. Something a good critic would probably do. Keith Lee shows no signs of slowing down.
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
And as more people turn to him for advice on what to eat, it got me wondering... What do we gain and what do we lose when influencers become critics? That's exactly what Korsha, Lindsay, and I are getting into today. Korsha, I want to start with you.
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
You wrote an article at the New York Times on Keith Lee's rise to fame and the controversy his reviews have not only created online, but even amongst some of his Black food media peers, calling into question the limits of social media and food criticism.
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
I kind of want to take a step back, though, because I think that many of us are familiar with hearing about food critics, but I don't know if everybody knows exactly what a food critic does. So let's kind of start off by defining some terms. What is the function of a food critic and in what ways does Keith Lee operate like one?
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
Hmm. Korsha, in your piece about Keith Lee, you also mentioned a few things that he does to try to be fair or to try to give a proper assessment in his reviews. Could you talk to us a little bit about that?
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
Right. Keith Lee has become so popular that he's now sending in his crew incognito to avoid getting special treatment.
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
But some food critics do to make sure they get an accurate representation of the food and service of a given restaurant.
It's Been a Minute
Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
Now, the question may be old, but today's potential parents do face a pretty unique set of concerns around whether to procreate.
It's Been a Minute
Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
It is interesting to see him straddle this line between critic and influencer, but also like celebrity too. I mean, obviously his videos have become very popular and he travels the country visiting different cities, but he doesn't really do a lot of deep research. And that was even a sore spot for previous tours. For example...
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
On a trip to New York City, he ate a salmon chopped cheese sandwich, which as someone who lives in New York, that honestly left me speechless. And he got so much pushback that a New York-based food influencer named Righteous Eats stepped in to actually help him.
It's Been a Minute
Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
He kind of tries restaurants based upon recommendations that he gets in the comments. And the results are very, very mixed at best. It's not like he's necessarily contributing to like the food or culinary scene of a given city. But I do think, though, that he is filling some kind of void within food criticism.
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
He's a Black man who feels like somebody that I could know or be related to, who's trying lots of accessible foods from small businesses, mom-and-pop spots. Those tend to be the kinds of restaurants that he's going for.
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
As this is a job that does have a lot of responsibility with it when you break it down like that, I have also noticed that that definitely brings out some folks who kind of feel frustrated with like the rise of the sort of influencer critic.
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
Keith Lee is a food influencer who doesn't have the same experience or credentials as some Black folks who have been reviewing food or restaurants or in food media for a long time. And some people see that as kind of a hard pill to swallow. What do you think of that?
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
one of the things I've been thinking about with this, I can't understand where some people might take issue with not just Keith Lee's rise, also his ubiquity. He's everywhere at once. But I get the sense that Keith Lee is not like the actual problem, but more discrimination and lack of diversity within food media in general.
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
And also like a tendency when one Black person becomes like a rocket ship success, then that's the person whose name is on everyone's lips. Instead of thinking, oh, well, Keith Lee's tapped into an audience. This might be a place to explore. Maybe there are other people, other voices that we could bring in. A lot of times the thought I think becomes in food media, let's talk to them.
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
And those concerns are creating a lot of anxiety and might be contributing to a falling birth rate. Today, Anastasia and I are going to look at two case studies that get at what's troubling millennials and Gen Zers when it comes to having kids. And they come from two world-conquering musicians who have been wrestling with this question in two of this year's blockbuster albums.
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
Like, let's just keep calling the same person back over and over and over and over again. And that's not Keith Lee's fault.
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
I will say, though, some of my favorite people to follow food-wise, that's not even their full-time job. I just trust their judgment because they share so thoughtfully about food. But we are also seeing a disinvestment in journalism. Yes. A disinvestment in staff, jobs. And I think that that has affected our cultural literacy and cultural fluency in this country.
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
Do you think that there's a world where, you know, even outside of food, we have a lot of loud, popular influencers and few... Real critics. And I don't say real to mean, like, necessarily they are staffed at a, you know, newspaper or something like that, because those are difficult jobs to get. They're rare these days. But more so that they are somebody who applies rigor to their critique.
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
And do you think we could be moving in that direction? Do we see that world in our future? Yeah. I was about to say something controversial. Oh, please say something controversial.
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
Our first case study, Tyler, the Creator. Tyler, one of the biggest rappers of his generation, dropped a new album called Chromicopia. Throughout the album, there are these clips of his mother giving him advice. And towards the back half of the album, there's this moment where she's begging him for a grandchild. She says, I'm getting old and I need a grandchild, please.
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
Hmm. Well, Korsha, Lindsay, I really appreciate this conversation. Thank you both so much for coming on the show.
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
Thank you. It was so fun. That was Korsha Wilson, food writer to The New York Times, and Lindsay Green from the Detroit Free Press. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Barton Girdwood, Alexis Williams, Liam McBain, Corey Antonio Rose. Engineering support came from Patrick Murray, Our executive producer is Jasmine Romero. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini.
It's Been a Minute
Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. All right, Anastasia, if you're ready to go, then I'll start asking questions.
It's Been a Minute
Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
All right, that's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
Just one, please. All I need is one. Give it up. We need a little time running around here, okay? Okay, we need a little dookie booty running around here, okay? A couple songs later, Tyler, who's 33 years old, so like squarely in the age group we're discussing, he gets into why he's so hesitant to have a child. And it's all because of his dad. He has this song called Like Him.
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
And on it, Tyler spends four minutes freaking out about turning out just like his absent father. And this reminds me of a lot of therapy speak we see online all the time. You know, how do I not repeat the mistakes of my parents? And for some of us, for some people, the answer is just to not have a kid, right?
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
This is Anastasia Berg. She's a professor of philosophy at the University of California and co-author of the book, What Are Children For?
It's Been a Minute
Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
Sometimes, like you said, it is something that's quite dramatic. Sometimes it's just something that has made enough of some kind of negative impact that maybe it's not completely debilitating, but you know that you don't want to repeat that or bring that forward into the next generation.
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
My pleasure. My pleasure. So we are here to talk about the question all of us have to face at one point or another. Should I baby or should I brat? Which one are you, baby or brat?
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
Okay, that is a great segue into our next case study. That's right. Charli XCX. So Charli XCX, she's a UK pop star who's had a huge year since she released her album Brat this past June. The album is full of club music, all about partying and being hot and having a good time. Of course. But then towards the back of the album, there's this one song called I Think About It All the Time.
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
It's this little ballad where Charlie, who is 31, is wrestling with whether or not she needs to stop partying, stop trying to be the biggest pop star and have a baby.
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
Time being, of course, this imagined biological clock that fully runs out and Charlie quite literally cannot have a child. And she's dealing with this tension between what life she wants to have for herself as a queer woman versus a mother. And she's feeling deeply, deeply pressured by this biological clock.
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
I also wonder about this. It's interesting that you say that it's refreshing for someone like CharlieXCX to bring up these questions. I do think that there is something that is refreshing and really interesting about raising this question in the middle of an album of like club bangers. Yes.
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
I know half of you listening know exactly what me and Anastasia are talking about. And the rest of you think we're insane. The point is that many of you have asked yourself this question at some point in your life because baby or brat is the 2024 millennial and Gen Z way of asking, should I have a baby or not?
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
I think what it shows is that there are many people who maybe don't seem like they're thinking about it all the time. When Charlie XCX is talking about using illicit substances in the bathroom at the club, you're not necessarily thinking about that as the person who's considering like, maybe I should have a baby. But very often people are thinking about those two things together.
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
But I would still argue that we live in an aggressively natalist culture where the expectation is that women will have or want children. And so while I think, like you said, that I think it is a refreshing artistic choice, I bristle at the idea. Yes, I can tell you're bristling. Well, yeah, I bristle at the idea that most people are not already thinking about these things.
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
Is Charlie XCX's question really that... transgressive if we already live in a society that already assumes that women are going to be asking themselves these questions all the time anyway. I mean, at least four or five times a year I get a cab driver who asks me why. Not if I have any children, but why I don't have any. It's a big cultural expectation that women have children.
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
And so I guess, I don't know. I just don't think it's transgressive that this question is being asked by a 32-year-old woman. It is interesting artistically, but I don't know if it's barrier-breaking.
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
Sure. I mean, I've had friends who were told offhand by employers that they wouldn't have been hired if they had kids, which for the record is illegal. But career pressure can certainly be a factor.
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
Shout out to Shannon Keating at The Cut for being the first to frame the question this way. Baby is, of course, I'm going to have a baby. And Brat is, no, I'm not going to have a baby. I'm choosing to live a child-free life and all that comes with it. Brat is also the name of one of the biggest pop albums of this year by Charli XCX. She even asks this question on the album herself.
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
You can be a mother, but you can't be the star of the show. You can be a mother, but you can't be the protagonist. Or if you are a mother and the protagonist... then being a mother is the focus of your life as opposed to having both your personhood and your children's personhood both moving along together forward in time. One band, one sound. Usually the mother identity is prioritized.
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
I absolutely see that. And I'll say, I think looking across at the rest of pop culture, there's like this alternative when looking at like perhaps mega famous, very rich, very wealthy women, like say Beyonce or Rihanna or the Kardashians, where these are people whose careers have only gotten bigger after they've had children.
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
But in some ways it could be said that's because they've capitalized off of the image of their motherhood, even though their lived experience of motherhood is probably devoid very, very different than yours is or how mine might be or the average person. Here's the thing. This question, to have a baby or not to have a baby, is a binary. There is or there is not a child.
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
You have a life before and a life after. But I don't know. I think that this kind of thinking is I agree with you. Instead of to have or to not have a baby, what's a better question that would help us understand what we want from life?
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Why pop stars aren't having kids (and why you might not either)
Well, Anastasia, thank you so much for coming on and talking with me about how people are wrestling with these questions about culture. I really appreciate it. Thank you for having me. That was Anastasia Berg. She's the co-author of a new book called What Are Children For? Coming up, TikTok's favorite food critic, Keith Lee, and how the lines between critic and influencer are being blurred.
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What's more "American" than the right to protest?
Well, Chenjerai, Rick, thank you both so much. I've learned so much here.
It's Been a Minute
What's more "American" than the right to protest?
That was historian Rick Perlstein, an NYU journalism professor and host of Empire City, Chenjerai Kumunika. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Corey Bridges. This episode was edited by Nina Patuk. Our supervising producer is Barton Girdwood. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right.
It's Been a Minute
What's more "American" than the right to protest?
That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
What's more "American" than the right to protest?
Well, President Trump said Khalil's arrest is the first of many to come as part of a policy to punish protesters who his administration claims are terrorist sympathizers or supporters of Hamas. This is something that President Trump himself campaigned on during the 2024 election.
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What's more "American" than the right to protest?
To be clear, Khalil has no known ties to Hamas or any terrorist organization. And of course, protesting is a right protected by our First Amendment. As soon as this story went public, people, and I mean everyone from political pundits to regular everyday folks were like, how is this possible? Isn't this a violation of the First Amendment?
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What's more "American" than the right to protest?
You know, one of the things that we're taught makes America America. You know, what makes Americans American is that we all have the right to free speech and the right to peaceably assemble. So in what ways is this one protester's arrest a rewriting of what it means to be an American? So, Rick, Chenjerai, the question on everyone's mind.
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What's more "American" than the right to protest?
Is Mahmoud Khalil's arrest the beginning of the end of the right to protest?
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What's more "American" than the right to protest?
Hmm. Hmm. Chandra, what do you think? Is the First Amendment essentially kaput?
It's Been a Minute
What's more "American" than the right to protest?
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. All right, everybody. This week, we are connecting the dots between Columbia University, Cool Hand Luke, and William F. Buckley. I already know you are asking, how are all of these things connected?
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What's more "American" than the right to protest?
Okay, I want to get deeper into this fighting for the right to protest because of two reasons. One is that we have seen both Republican legislatures and Democratic cities attempt to curb in the last couple of years the right to assemble. All of this was happening after the Black Lives Matter protests in 2020.
It's Been a Minute
What's more "American" than the right to protest?
But at the same time, both Democrats and Republicans are vocal about wanting to protect the right to free speech. I mean... Even conservative pundit, Ms. Ann Coulter, Ann Coulter, was pushing back against the Trump administration's arrest of Khalil.
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What's more "American" than the right to protest?
Ann Coulter posted on X this week, there's almost no one I don't want to deport, but unless they've committed a crime, isn't this a violation of the First Amendment? So all that said, why is protest historically so important in the U.S. ?
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What's more "American" than the right to protest?
Yeah. And when you say put protests down, talk to me about what that can look like in terms of how protesters who are speaking out against those in power are regarded or treated.
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What's more "American" than the right to protest?
OK, yeah. Give me an example of that long history that Trump is tapping into.
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What's more "American" than the right to protest?
And that makes me wonder why, of all the campus protesters, Mahmoud Khalil was targeted. Like, what message is the Trump administration trying to send? And how does the university play into all of this? Help me wrap my brain around this.
It's Been a Minute
What's more "American" than the right to protest?
Right, right, right, right. And in fact, Reagan's education advisor famously said to be selective about who is allowed to go to college. Otherwise, his words, we are in danger of producing an educated proletariat.
It's Been a Minute
What's more "American" than the right to protest?
Well, today we are going to find out with NYU journalism professor Chenjerai Kumunika and author Rick Perlstein. His books like Nixonland and Reaganland trace the rise of conservatism in America. Chenjerai, Rick, welcome to It's Been a Minute.
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What's more "American" than the right to protest?
You know, to your point, just this week, President Trump called Tesla protesters, to quote him, domestic terrorists.
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What's more "American" than the right to protest?
Yeah, it kind of looks like the administration is creating this scaffolding to restrict this kind of protest.
It's Been a Minute
What's more "American" than the right to protest?
Coming up, Mahmoud Khalil's arrest also raises some other really big cultural questions, like what does it mean that a green card holder can be deported? And why many Americans and Jewish people are skeptical this arrest has anything to do with curbing anti-Semitism?
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What's more "American" than the right to protest?
Going back to Mahmoud Khalil, Khalil's wife, who has not been named publicly and also is eight months pregnant, she was also threatened with arrest by ICE. She is an American citizen. And it's notable to me that she was told that Khalil would be detained somewhere close to their home in Manhattan, but he wound up being transferred about a thousand miles south to Louisiana. Wow.
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What's more "American" than the right to protest?
Happy to have you both. All right, so let's set the stage for this conversation. Last weekend, Palestinian activist Mahmoud Khalil was arrested by federal immigration authorities. Khalil was one of the student leaders in Columbia University's campus protests against the war in Gaza. He's now a graduate of the university.
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What's more "American" than the right to protest?
What's the purpose of these tactics and what effect are they meant to have on green card or visa holders?
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What's more "American" than the right to protest?
You know... The administration, the Trump administration, has tried to frame its thwarting of protest as a way to combat anti-Semitism. Oh, my. And that's a claim that some Americans... You're my wheelhouse, Brittany. That is a claim that some Americans have been quite skeptical of. I have seen plenty of Jewish Americans be quite skeptical of that claim.
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What's more "American" than the right to protest?
I want to point out, though, that Donald Trump has been closely connected in the past with anti-Semitic figures like Kanye West and Nick Fuentes.
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What's more "American" than the right to protest?
Yeah. And so I wonder, why do you think anti-Semitism is often ignored on the American right?
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What's more "American" than the right to protest?
I have one last question. You know, freedom of speech, freedom to assemble. These are all foundational parts of the American cultural identity. So if those freedoms become conditional, if those freedoms are in jeopardy, how does that change what it means to be an American?
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What's more "American" than the right to protest?
What's important to note about his arrest is that Khalil is in fact a green card holder, meaning he is a lawful permanent resident of the United States. So why are federal immigration authorities going out of their way to detain a legal resident of the United States who hasn't committed any crimes yet?
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Eggs are expensive, but are they safe?
That's it for But Did You Know? For this week, congratulations to Marion on your very tidy win. And Marion, Will, thank you both so much for joining me today.
It's Been a Minute
Eggs are expensive, but are they safe?
It was. That was NPR's Will Stone and public health nutritionist Marion Nessel. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Corey Antonio Rose. This episode was edited by Jasmine Romero. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Lewis. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
Eggs are expensive, but are they safe?
has contracted bird flu from eating eggs or from drinking raw milk. But over 20 million egg-laying chickens have gone up to that golden coop in the sky in the last five months alone. And scientists are concerned about the virus's ability to mutate and the risks it poses to human health. The thing that gets me about all this, this outbreak has been going on for years.
It's Been a Minute
Eggs are expensive, but are they safe?
It has killed over 100 million animals since 2022. So why is it that now the public is finally taking notice?
It's Been a Minute
Eggs are expensive, but are they safe?
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. This week, we're connecting the dots between eggs, the jungle, and the pandemic. I know, I know. How are all of these things connected?
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Eggs are expensive, but are they safe?
Marian, what about you? What do you think makes this moment unique with bird flu?
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Eggs are expensive, but are they safe?
Yeah, yeah. I echo that concern. And also, I mean, even just thinking about like kind of this moment that we're in right now, thinking about not just bird flu and how it's affected our egg supply, but just thinking about other kinds of, you know, food related recalls that have been happening over the past like four to six months.
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Eggs are expensive, but are they safe?
I mean, just this week, there's a recall of some canned tunas, some canned tuna brands over concerns about botulism risk. Marion, is there a time when the American people were deeply roused to care about our food system and how their food is being prepared and grown?
It's Been a Minute
Eggs are expensive, but are they safe?
Well, we're going to find out with NPR health reporter, Will Stone, and public health nutritionist, Marion Nestle. Will, Marion, welcome to It's Been a Minute. Hey there. Glad to be here. It's good to have you both. I'm curious, what is the highest price you'll pay for a dozen regular eggs?
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Eggs are expensive, but are they safe?
1906, that is a long time ago. Marion, why do you think more people aren't having that level of outrage about the safety risks within our food safety system today?
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Eggs are expensive, but are they safe?
I also imagine that some companies may not want to welcome intense scrutiny from consumers or the government about where their food comes from and how it's made.
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Eggs are expensive, but are they safe?
I see. I see. But also sometimes when you think about like the ethical or even the safety concerns that come up in really understanding how our food is grown and raised and where it comes from, I think a lot of consumers might not want to be thinking about that either.
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Eggs are expensive, but are they safe?
That's a very, very, very good point. Something that you've said, Will, that makes bird flu so difficult or complex to address is that there is an animal response. Like, there's a response to... Herds of animals that are being affected, but also there needs to be a response to human infection. How are we seeing our government respond or not respond to the crisis at hand, Will?
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Eggs are expensive, but are they safe?
You know, all this is happening as Trump's Secretary of Health and Human Services pick, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., was confirmed by the Senate this week. So now the person tasked with preparing for and responding to national public health threats like, say, bird flu, is someone who has shown deep skepticism for vaccines in humans, let alone animals.
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Eggs are expensive, but are they safe?
Will, how does RFK and the cabinet have the potential to shape the future of food safety?
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Eggs are expensive, but are they safe?
You know, a lot of people have been worried about how to shop in the face of all these headlines and all these discussions about avian flu. And no one that we know of in the U.S. has contracted bird flu from eating eggs or drinking pasteurized or even raw milk at this moment.
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Eggs are expensive, but are they safe?
But aside from buying or not buying something, what are other ways consumers can take action if they're feeling concerned about how bird flu is affecting our food supply? Cook your food. Cook your food? Say more. That's one I haven't heard before, Marianne.
It's Been a Minute
Eggs are expensive, but are they safe?
I wonder, you know, you talked about these individual solutions, very helpful, might I add, keeping the hot foods hot. I'm not going to say too much. Sometimes people don't want to hear that one. But I also wonder about like thinking beyond the individual. If someone is concerned about these things, what are some things that they could do to maybe try to affect change in a larger sense?
It's Been a Minute
Eggs are expensive, but are they safe?
Well, given the headlines, I think you might want to reconsider those numbers. Let's get into it. Across the country, egg prices are continuing to rise. If you were to walk into a grocery store today, you can expect to see prices for a dozen eggs as high as $10. That is $1 more than Will's tap-out price and almost double the cost from this time last year. Why?
It's Been a Minute
Eggs are expensive, but are they safe?
You know, Marion, I don't disagree with you. I don't disagree with you on that. Well, I am just going to add bird flu to the long list of concerns I have for my elected officials. Well, Marion, I have learned so much here. Thank you both so much. Thanks. My pleasure. And as a thank you, I'd like to teach you something by playing a very quick little game with you all.
It's Been a Minute
Eggs are expensive, but are they safe?
Can you stick around for a tiny bit longer?
It's Been a Minute
Eggs are expensive, but are they safe?
Another game? Yes! This is the game, Marion. It's the game. We'll be right back with a little game I like to call, But Did You Know... Stick around. All right, all right. You are listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce here with NPR health reporter Will Stone and public health nutritionist Marion Nestle. And we're going to play a little game I like to call, but did you know?
It's Been a Minute
Eggs are expensive, but are they safe?
Here's how it works. I'm going to share a story that's been making headlines this week. And as I give you some background on the story, I'll also ask you trivia related to it. But don't worry. It's all multiple choice. And the first one to blurt out the right answer gets a point. Person with the most points wins. And their prize is bragging rights and a carton of eggs. I'm just kidding.
It's Been a Minute
Eggs are expensive, but are they safe?
We're not going to give you all a carton of eggs. Are you ready?
It's Been a Minute
Eggs are expensive, but are they safe?
All right, to start this weekend is Valentine's Day weekend. The candy-hearted holiday is named after St. Valentine, a Roman clergyman in the third century. But of course, to join that sacred sorority of sainthood, one must perform a miracle during their time on earth. What miracle was St. Valentine said to have performed during his lifetime? A, giving sight to a blind girl.
It's Been a Minute
Eggs are expensive, but are they safe?
B, calming a raging storm. Or C, curing 14 men of leprosy.
It's Been a Minute
Eggs are expensive, but are they safe?
I'll say the storm. Well, unfortunately, you were both wrong. The answer is giving sight to a blind girl. Valentine was said to have healed a blind girl named Julia, the daughter of his jailer, before he was executed around 270 AD. That wasn't very nice of his jailer. I know, right? I'm kind of like, wow, that was a little... He did one nice thing for you and boom.
It's Been a Minute
Eggs are expensive, but are they safe?
Well, it gives a new meaning for love at first sight. All right. Question number two. Valentine's Day is a huge milestone for many couples out there, and there are quite a few who celebrate anniversaries on the holiday, including my aunt and uncle, Cassandra and Gary. Happy anniversary. There are also two states in this country that achieved statehood on Valentine's Day.
It's Been a Minute
Eggs are expensive, but are they safe?
Which state does not celebrate the anniversary of its statehood on February 14th? A, Oregon. B, Arizona. Or C, Montana.
It's Been a Minute
Eggs are expensive, but are they safe?
Montana. Well, you know what, Marion? I'll tell you what. You were absolutely right. The answer is C, Montana.
It's Been a Minute
Eggs are expensive, but are they safe?
You sensed it. You sensed it. While Oregon achieved statehood on V-Day 1859 and Arizona achieved it on the same day in 1912, Montana achieved statehood November 1889. To recap the score, Will, you are at zero points. Marion, you are in the lead with one point. Without further ado, the final question for the win. This is winner takes all.
It's Been a Minute
Eggs are expensive, but are they safe?
When it comes to Valentine's Day, the flowers, chocolate and jewelry can really add up. According to the National Retail Federation, how much money are Americans expected to spend this year on Valentine's Day? A, $15.8 billion. B, $27.5 billion. Or C, $32.1 billion. I'll pick the middle one. $32 billion. Well, Marianne, you got the magic touch. The answer is $27.5 billion.
It's Been a Minute
Eggs are expensive, but are they safe?
That figure is actually up from last year's $25.8 billion. So maybe it's a sign that those relationships are still going strong. I don't know. I don't know. We eat a lot of candy in America. We do eat a lot of candy in America. Although I have to say, I am not really a big candy on the day. I'm a big candy on the 15th when it's half off kind of person. That's just me. All right.
It's Been a Minute
Eggs are expensive, but are they safe?
The avian flu, also known as bird flu, is causing outbreaks in poultry. But it's not just in birds. It's been found in U.S. dairy cows, and there have been several recent human cases found in workers at dairy and poultry facilities. Don't panic just yet. Right now, the risk of mass human infection is low. And there's no evidence that anyone in the U.S.
It's Been a Minute
Luigi Mangione & America's pent up pain
Hello, hello, Brittany here. Before we start the show today, the end of another year is coming up and our team is looking back at all the conversations we've been able to bring to you about what's going on in culture. Things we could only do because of your support.
It's Been a Minute
Luigi Mangione & America's pent up pain
So I'm already on board the gratitude train, but in our very individualistic culture, one that does not prioritize this feeling except around this time of year, gratitude can be harder to access. So I'm revisiting a conversation we had last year about how and why we should use gratitude to feel better year round and not just around the major holidays.
It's Been a Minute
Luigi Mangione & America's pent up pain
So before we get into gratitude, for our listeners who might not know, how did you find yourself starting the Happiness Lab? Like, what was happening that made you realize, like, you got to make this. We need this.
It's Been a Minute
Luigi Mangione & America's pent up pain
So, I mean, even for those who don't celebrate Thanksgiving or Christmas or any of the major winter holidays, because not everybody does, what makes gratitude such an important practice?
It's Been a Minute
Luigi Mangione & America's pent up pain
I've got to see that one played out in my own life. I haven't seen that one yet. I'm trusting you. I'm trusting you.
It's Been a Minute
Luigi Mangione & America's pent up pain
I'm going to take a quick break, but we have so much more to dig into. I'll be right back. Even just you talking about it actually kind of like spreads warm throughout. When you put it that way, it makes me think of something that I noticed that my husband does. He always thanks me for doing normal stuff.
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Luigi Mangione & America's pent up pain
So like if I got him a glass of water or if I did the laundry, you know, just things like around the house that normally, you know, everybody's supposed to do. And honestly, a lot of the time he's doing more of. But I noticed it was so nice because it made me feel like he had noticed my effort to do something, to be thoughtful or noticed my effort just to like... You feel seen.
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Luigi Mangione & America's pent up pain
Not to be thoughtful, but just to be considerate. Yeah. And even just that act of noticing really had such an impact on me. And it's something that I have made a point of doing for him as well all of the time. So, I mean, I'm sure if somebody were to observe, they'd be like, are you really just thanking each other constantly for... like doing everyday stuff. But it's nice.
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Luigi Mangione & America's pent up pain
It's nice to feel like somebody notices. And I think the noticing is part of it, too.
It's Been a Minute
Luigi Mangione & America's pent up pain
That is such a good point. Like sometimes at the end of the day, my husband and I will both kind of like report nice things that we saw somebody else do or something. Those nice things or those things that you appreciate don't always get back to somebody.
It's Been a Minute
Luigi Mangione & America's pent up pain
Hmm. I do feel like, though, in the everyday sense, modern life, the entire 2020s decade so far, the times we're in now have made at times gratitude harder for me to reach. Totally. Yep. And I don't think I'm alone in that. Do you have any tips on how to locate and amplify gratitude, especially during tough times?
It's Been a Minute
Luigi Mangione & America's pent up pain
You and I dove into some of the biggest cultural shifts in 2024, from the movement to make America male again, the Hawk Tua phenomenon, and the Real House Wifification of Congress. Phew, it's not only been a minute, it's been a year. We've been able to report on these things for you because listeners like you step up to support our work, either by giving to your local station or by joining NPR+.
It's Been a Minute
Luigi Mangione & America's pent up pain
Oh my gosh, you're just making me recall all these moments I feel so grateful for. I have a young niece and she used to live in New York until recently. And she was very small. She was like a toddler during, you know, lockdown. And I remember like... The first time we could really hug, she squeezed me so hard. And it felt so nice. It was just like, oh, my gosh.
It's Been a Minute
Luigi Mangione & America's pent up pain
It was like an oasis in the middle of the desert. Thinking about gratitude, we live in a highly individualistic culture. And gratitude requires the acknowledgement of how we're all helping each other, that we don't do it all alone. What would it look like for us to have gratitude as a societal value or at least one that's more present in our society than it currently is?
It's Been a Minute
Luigi Mangione & America's pent up pain
Thank you so much, Lori. This was a great conversation.
It's Been a Minute
Luigi Mangione & America's pent up pain
Thanks again to Dr. Lori Santos, professor of psychology at Yale and host of the podcast, The Happiness Lab. You can find it wherever you get your podcasts. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Barton Girdwood, Alexis Williams, Liam McBain, Corey Antonio Rose. Our executive producer is Jasmine Romero. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right.
It's Been a Minute
Luigi Mangione & America's pent up pain
That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
Luigi Mangione & America's pent up pain
When you sign up for a simple recurring donation on NPR+, you support our mission of creating a more informed public and get special perks for more than 25 NPR podcasts. like sponsor-free listening and bonus episodes. Join us on the Plus side today at plus.npr.org. That's plus.npr.org. And that link is also in our episode notes. Thank you so much. Now, let's get some culture. Hello, hello.
It's Been a Minute
Luigi Mangione & America's pent up pain
I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident.
It's Been a Minute
Luigi Mangione & America's pent up pain
We are fully into the holiday season. It's a time when a lot of us will reflect on the things and the people in our lives that we appreciate. And my guest today is someone I'm really grateful for. Dr. Lori Santos, welcome to It's Been a Minute.
It's Been a Minute
Luigi Mangione & America's pent up pain
Oh my gosh, my pleasure. I mean, first of all, gotta say, long-time listener, first-time caller. I have been listening to The Happiness Lab for years. Your podcast sometimes has just kept me from the brink. Lori is a psychology professor at Yale, and her podcast, The Happiness Lab, is full of tips on how to be happier. all of which are backed by psychology.
It's Been a Minute
Luigi Mangione & America's pent up pain
And Lori says one emotion we should pay more attention to is actually gratitude. Now, I am someone who has a gratitude journal, and I have to say it has just done so much for my life. Even on days when I'm feeling so low that all I can be thankful for is that I don't have a broken nail, or maybe I'm going to eat tacos for dinner. That gratitude journal is keeps me mentally on track.
It's Been a Minute
This podcast is a recession indicator.
What about you, Waylon? What is your favorite unscientific recession indicator?
It's Been a Minute
This podcast is a recession indicator.
The answer is correct. C. C. It turns out we are also incredibly busy with life activities that we don't feel like we have enough time to read, which honestly, I mean, that's relatable. I'll also add that this is the number one reason by a huge margin.
It's Been a Minute
This podcast is a recession indicator.
43% of Americans say this is the reason compared to the second most popular answer at 32, which is a preference for other mediums of entertainment, aka TV. And I have to say, I don't want to say people are lying. But the 32% of you that said that TV is the reason you're not reading, I just want to commend your honesty right there. I'm not even going to front. I'm having too much fun watching TV.
It's Been a Minute
This podcast is a recession indicator.
All right. To recap the score. Oh, I love it when it gets to this point. We got a tie. Jeff, you're at one point. Whelan, you're at one point. Oh my goodness. Okay. Without further ado.
It's Been a Minute
This podcast is a recession indicator.
Tiebreaker. That's tiebreaking. Final question. We've talked a lot about the people who don't read, but I see you readers out there and it turns out for those of you that do read- What is by far the most popular genre according to the NPR poll? Is it A, fantasy, B, thrillers, crime or mystery all lumped in together, or C, romance?
It's Been a Minute
This podcast is a recession indicator.
That's too bad. The answer is B, thrillers. Really?
It's Been a Minute
This podcast is a recession indicator.
Listen, I love a thriller. I love to be shocked and surprised. And also, I love mystery. But at the end of the day, I feel like people love crime. I hate to say it. I hate that that's a true thing.
It's Been a Minute
This podcast is a recession indicator.
Well, 37 percent of respondents to the survey said that thrillers were their favorite genre. That's relatable. But now I'm like, maybe we should just like maybe we should blow this popsicle stand and start a true crime podcast. OK, get this money.
It's Been a Minute
This podcast is a recession indicator.
All right. That's it for But Did You Know? for this week. Congratulations to neither of you.
It's Been a Minute
This podcast is a recession indicator.
But you know what that means? That means you've got to come back and have a rematch. Yes. There we go. There we go. Oh, my gosh. This was so much fun.
It's Been a Minute
This podcast is a recession indicator.
That was co-host of NPR's Indicator podcast, Waylon Wong, and co-host of NPR's Planet Money podcast, Jeff Guo. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Corey Bridges. This episode was edited by Nina Patuk. Our supervising producer is Barton Girdwood. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right.
It's Been a Minute
This podcast is a recession indicator.
That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
This podcast is a recession indicator.
Listen, listen, it's getting to be that time for a lot of us. And also, I mean, it's not just us. Everyone from hedge fund managers to online content creators are thinking a lot about the state of the economy right now and for good reason. Threats of new tariffs shook global markets all week and are prompting companies to adjust to the uncertainty.
It's Been a Minute
This podcast is a recession indicator.
Nintendo's brand new Switch 2 console was set to open pre-orders in the US this very week, but that has been delayed because of newly imposed tariffs. But it's not just about luxury game consoles. People's retirement savings are disappearing, and this current moment doesn't feel like...
It's Been a Minute
This podcast is a recession indicator.
the vibes session of a few years ago when people felt bad about the economy, but the numbers still looked good, right? If we're being honest, it sort of feels similar, and I was around for this too, to the 2008 moment I'm sure a lot of us remember quite vividly, myself included. So this had me wondering, are we actually barreling headfirst into a recession?
It's Been a Minute
This podcast is a recession indicator.
How do we prepare culturally for this potential economic hit? So Jeff and Waylon, lots of big weighty questions, but I just want to start with how do we define a recession and how do we know when we're in a recession?
It's Been a Minute
This podcast is a recession indicator.
Yeah, that, you know, I'll say, I mean... You're blowing my mind a little bit right now, y'all. I mean, oftentimes regular folks will feel like they're already in a recession personally before financial institutions officially declare one. Mm-hmm.
It's Been a Minute
This podcast is a recession indicator.
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. All right, all right. This week, we are connecting the dots between chaperone, skincare dupes, and the Nintendo Switch. I know, I know. How are all these things connected?
It's Been a Minute
This podcast is a recession indicator.
So should we be preparing for a recession right now? Like, what should we be doing?
It's Been a Minute
This podcast is a recession indicator.
So speaking of shopping, like what are people buying more of right now?
It's Been a Minute
This podcast is a recession indicator.
Interesting, interesting. I wonder about dupes, you know, dupes for the uninitiated are, I mean, they could be anything from a product that works really pretty close to the way that like a big brand name, kind of fancier product does to just something that seems like it's kind of similar, but really doesn't work as well.
It's Been a Minute
This podcast is a recession indicator.
But the big thing is that a dupe is always going to be less expensive than the original.
It's Been a Minute
This podcast is a recession indicator.
There have been all these studies on the millennials who graduated into the 2008 recession. Myself included, and I still remember it. You're like, I'm still processing. I'm still processing it now. And the long lasting effects that that economic moment had on the rest of their lives. Is there anything that Gen Z can learn from what millennials experienced in 2008?
It's Been a Minute
This podcast is a recession indicator.
Well, we are going to find out with co-host of NPR's Indicator podcast, Waylon Wong, and co-host of NPR's Planet Money podcast, Jeff Guo. Waylon, Jeff, welcome to It's Been a Minute.
It's Been a Minute
This podcast is a recession indicator.
Ah, my gosh. Yeah, I mean, you both bring up such good points. So I think back to that whole period. It was a hard time. I was at least fortunate enough to be able to go back and live with my parents.
It's Been a Minute
This podcast is a recession indicator.
I had one friend who had his own apartment at that time.
It's Been a Minute
This podcast is a recession indicator.
Only one and everybody else, everybody else I know is living with their parents. But, you know, between this recession or looming recession or real vibe session, we're experiencing and these tariffs, especially the tariffs that are being placed on Chinese goods, aka where tons of the little treats that people buy themselves online every day are coming from.
It's Been a Minute
This podcast is a recession indicator.
It'll be interesting to see how, you know, younger consumers will respond to both their budgets changing and also the prices changing on, you know, some of these formerly super cheap goods.
It's Been a Minute
This podcast is a recession indicator.
Hi. All right. So I have a question. What is your favorite unscientific recession indicator? Lipstick. Lipstick.
It's Been a Minute
This podcast is a recession indicator.
That's a really good point. Oh my gosh. Well, talk about all this. I mean, it just reminds me that America is a consumer economy. Americans love cheap goods from China. I wonder, like, how would these increased tariffs fundamentally change how we live in America? How would that affect how we see ourselves as Americans?
It's Been a Minute
This podcast is a recession indicator.
Yeah, I also wonder if there's an opportunity there too for Americans to consider why these goods may be so cheap in the first place and how fair some of the business practices are that allow for Americans to pay so little for goods that are still being made by human beings in other countries.
It's Been a Minute
This podcast is a recession indicator.
You raise a really good point, Jeff. There's an opportunity for people to rethink their attitudes toward how we participate in a global economy and perhaps understanding that we are much more interdependent on other countries than maybe people previously assumed. For sure. But Waylon, Jeff, I have learned so much here. Thank you both so much. Thanks. This is great.
It's Been a Minute
This podcast is a recession indicator.
You made me think about so many things. I loved it.
It's Been a Minute
This podcast is a recession indicator.
Both so much fun. And as a thank you to you for teaching me something. I'd like to teach y'all something by playing a game with you all. Can you stick around for a tiny bit longer? Yes.
It's Been a Minute
This podcast is a recession indicator.
All right. Jeff, you seem a little trepidatious.
It's Been a Minute
This podcast is a recession indicator.
It's okay. It's okay. We'll be right back with a little game I like to call, What Did You Know? Stick around. All right. All right. We are going to play a little game I like to call, What Did You Know? Here's how it works. I'm going to share a story that's been making headlines this week. And as I give you some background on the story, I'll also ask you trivia related to it, but don't worry.
It's Been a Minute
This podcast is a recession indicator.
It's all multiple choice. The right answer is in there somewhere. And the first one to blurt out the right answer gets the point. The first one. Okay. I'm so worried. Person with the most points wins and their prize is bragging rights. Those good old NPR bragging rights, baby.
It's Been a Minute
This podcast is a recession indicator.
No, you'll see. You'll see. It's going to be fun. So this week, we got an update on the ongoing war between books versus brain rot. According to a brand new NPR Ipsos poll looking at American reading habits, what percentage of Americans read a book, one book, in the month of February? Was it... A, 34%, B, 51%, or C, 68%? I'm going A. B. Well, Jeff, look at C. You were nervous and you got it right.
It's Been a Minute
This podcast is a recession indicator.
Waylon, I thought it was even less than 34%. You and I are on the same page.
It's Been a Minute
This podcast is a recession indicator.
You know what? You're saying something right there. They could be lying, but you were right.
It's Been a Minute
This podcast is a recession indicator.
Well, unfortunately for books, 80% of Americans say they watch TV during that time. I know I was. I was watching The Pit. To which I will now force both of you to pick a side. Whose side are you on, books or TV? You're going to make us pick? I know.
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This podcast is a recession indicator.
I'm going books. Oh, my gosh. I love you all for choosing books. I think that is so virtuous. And I love books.
It's Been a Minute
This podcast is a recession indicator.
And see, and you know what? That's the kind of thinking that would get you rewarded in Hollywood, Jeff, okay? All right, all right. Question two. What is the number one reason Americans say they aren't reading more? Is it... TV. B, lack of interest in reading, or C, not enough time because of life activities? I'd say C. C. Waylon says C, and Jeff says C. Waylon, you were first.
It's Been a Minute
Bad news for protein bros: you might be getting scammed
Now, protein is an essential macronutrient. We all need it. But I've been noticing some confusion about whether we're eating enough protein or not. So I went out on the street to see what the people think about their protein intake. I'm saying bulk of what you're eating. It should be more protein focused. How much protein do you think you eat in a day?
It's Been a Minute
Bad news for protein bros: you might be getting scammed
Okay, let's actually talk about how much protein we probably should be eating. How much protein do we really need?
It's Been a Minute
Bad news for protein bros: you might be getting scammed
So even as we're already kind of having more than enough, at least in the United States, there are lots of Americans that are like, God, I get my protein up. That's right.
It's Been a Minute
Bad news for protein bros: you might be getting scammed
So people aren't having enough fiber.
It's Been a Minute
Bad news for protein bros: you might be getting scammed
Well, I, for one, am a huge fiber girly and I welcome any and all to the Fiber Club. Samantha, Kenny, thank you so much for coming on today. I really appreciate it.
It's Been a Minute
Bad news for protein bros: you might be getting scammed
Thanks for having us. That was food writer Samantha Maxwell and Vox senior reporter Kenny Torella. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Liam McBain. This episode was edited by Jasmine Romero. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
Bad news for protein bros: you might be getting scammed
It's honestly so confusing. And the obsession is so deep, it's even changed the way food producers market their products.
It's Been a Minute
Bad news for protein bros: you might be getting scammed
That was Vox senior reporter Kenny Torella. I sat down with him and food writer Samantha Maxwell to understand the cultural tides bringing protein to the front of our minds. Why it's increasingly tied to politics... and how much protein we actually need to eat. Samantha, Kenny, welcome to It's Been a Minute.
It's Been a Minute
Bad news for protein bros: you might be getting scammed
Thanks for having us. So we are here to talk about protein. I've seen it in pancake mix, cookies. I'm getting served, you know, these recipe videos on Instagram where there's like 50 grams of protein in one serving of a dish. You know, maybe there are some people who need that, right? But it just sometimes seems like a lot. And so I wonder, where do y'all think this is coming from?
It's Been a Minute
Bad news for protein bros: you might be getting scammed
Like, how did a big focus on protein become a new fad?
It's Been a Minute
Bad news for protein bros: you might be getting scammed
Another thing that I think about, I recently saw this photo floating around that compared what Hugh Jackman looked like shirtless in the first X-Men movies versus how he looked in the most recent Deadpool movie, Deadpool and Wolverine or whatever. And he physically looks very different.
It's Been a Minute
Bad news for protein bros: you might be getting scammed
Like even 20 years ago, I think even for men who were in like action films, let's say, who were meant to look very muscular and muscular. have an appearance that some people might call quite jacked, they still had a physique that wouldn't be out of place at a local gym.
It's Been a Minute
Bad news for protein bros: you might be getting scammed
But Marvel movies, they consistently feature physiques that required constant exercise, super restrictive diets, and at times even severe dehydration to make their on-screen male characters look way, way, way more jacked. I think that male body image has also probably been deeply affected by that.
It's Been a Minute
Bad news for protein bros: you might be getting scammed
And according to Pew, 79% of New Year's resolutions are about one thing, health. But there are so many different aspects to our health, and it's hard to separate fact, fiction, and fad. We're kicking off 2025 with a little series called New Year, New Me. We're getting into some of the big questions and cultural confusion around our health and wellness.
It's Been a Minute
Bad news for protein bros: you might be getting scammed
To your point, Kenny, I find that some people, especially men, might not want to call their protein obsession, protein consumption, dieting. But it seems like counting macros and being very attentive to how you train in the gym and counting calories, those things are very much in line with traditional notions of dieting.
It's Been a Minute
Bad news for protein bros: you might be getting scammed
I mean, a lot of those things are coded as very feminine, which may be why some people might run from that name. But protein does have a more masculine bent to it. So I could see how it's easier for men and women to partake in like heightened protein consumption and perhaps not call it dieting or not call it restrictive eating, even when it could be.
It's Been a Minute
Bad news for protein bros: you might be getting scammed
Or not even cooking them like the liver king.
It's Been a Minute
Bad news for protein bros: you might be getting scammed
Thousands of dollars of steroids every month. Yes.
It's Been a Minute
Bad news for protein bros: you might be getting scammed
Ah, with factory farming.
It's Been a Minute
Bad news for protein bros: you might be getting scammed
Yeah, that seems like a lot to take on every day. But I think that where we are with like America's big protein kick right now, it seems to be reflecting something broader about shifts that are happening in our culture. In your eyes, what does the protein kick reflect about these broader changes we're seeing in our culture right now?
It's Been a Minute
Bad news for protein bros: you might be getting scammed
This week, we're diving deep into a diet obsession that's been making me scratch my head, protein. If your algorithm is anything like mine, you've probably seen recipe videos like this one.
It's Been a Minute
Bad news for protein bros: you might be getting scammed
Kenny, what kinds of connections do you see between conservative politics and emphasis on protein?
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Bad news for protein bros: you might be getting scammed
Hmm. That iconography around meat or cattle or livestock is very baked into a lot of American iconography. It's very much there. Going back to what you said about like the Maha rhetoric, it feels like there's this widespread idea that's causing a lot of people a lot of anxiety that what we're eating or the way we're eating is not right. We see that in the
It's Been a Minute
Bad news for protein bros: you might be getting scammed
clean eating, some strains of veganism, people who eat raw, people who are keto. There's a lot of cultural noise about what eating right actually looks like that might be playing into all this.
It's Been a Minute
Bad news for protein bros: you might be getting scammed
Let me show you how to make a quick and easy lunch that has over 60, yes, 60 grams of protein.
It's Been a Minute
The political power of Gen Z women
Claire, Rachel, it has been such a joy to talk to you both. I've learned so much. Thank you.
It's Been a Minute
The political power of Gen Z women
That was founder of the Up and Up newsletter, Rachel Janfaza, and New York Times reporter, Claire Kane Miller. And I'm going to put on my influencer hat for a second and ask you to please subscribe to this show on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you're listening. Click follow so you know the latest in culture while it's still hot. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Corey Bridges.
It's Been a Minute
The political power of Gen Z women
I'm feeling very youthful right now. I feel as I sit here with my middle part that I've maintained for the past six or seven years because a Gen Z person got me together. Exactly.
It's Been a Minute
The political power of Gen Z women
This episode was edited by Nina Pathak. Our supervising producer is Barton Girdwood. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
The political power of Gen Z women
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. Hello. A quick note before we start today's show. You may have heard that President Trump has issued an executive order seeking to block all federal funding to NPR.
It's Been a Minute
The political power of Gen Z women
You know, I'm going to actually definitely second that one. That is something over the years I have learned a lot more about from Gen Z colleagues, I'll say. Well, if you haven't heard, there's another big difference in the headlines that's raising eyebrows. And that difference can be found... in their political views.
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The political power of Gen Z women
Recent polling and survey data suggests that young women ages 18 to 29 have become increasingly liberal in their politics. And this isn't just a case of youngest generation being more liberal than their older peers. the data actually shows that Gen Z women in particular identify as even more liberal than older generations did at the same age.
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The political power of Gen Z women
For example, Gallup's polling data says that 28% of women aged 18 to 29 self-described as liberal between 2001 and 2007. If you look at that same age range from the years 2017 to 2024, the number of young women self-identifying as liberal shoots up to 40%. No other cohort polled saw a change this dramatic. So that has me wondering, what is behind Gen Z women's apparent shift to the left?
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The political power of Gen Z women
Why aren't other generations seeing a similar shift? And what should we make of the growing political gap between Gen Z men and Gen Z women? But first, just to like set a foundation for the conversation, why is it that younger generations tend to be more liberal in the first place? Claire, we'll hear from you first on this.
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Interesting. Interesting. And what do you think, Rachel? Why do you think that younger generations tend to be more liberal in the first place?
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Well, the latest Gallup poll about political leanings and gender uses data from the beginning of Trump's term into the beginning of his second term. Claire, do you think that Gen Z women becoming more liberal is a reaction to the rise of Donald Trump?
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The political power of Gen Z women
This is the latest in a series of threats to media organizations across the country. Whatever changes this action brings, NPR's commitment to reporting the news without fear or favor will never change. Thank you. We are proud to do this work for you. and with you. This week, we're connecting the dots between Dobbs, the Manosphere, and Gallup. I know, I know. How are all of these things connected?
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The political power of Gen Z women
Interesting. All of the political moments that you mentioned, I remember feeling extremely monumental. And there's Gallup data that looks at people between the ages of 18 and 29 from the years 2001 to 2007. And in that data, Gen Z men aren't significantly more or less liberal than when their millennial counterparts were the same age, right?
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The political power of Gen Z women
So millennial men back in the 2000s and Gen Z men today are kind of hovering around the same kind of place as far as like who's liberal and who's not. But on the other hand, there's a surge in Gen Z women identifying as liberal. What effect do you think this trend could have on the broader culture? Rachel, I'd love to hear from you first on this.
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The political power of Gen Z women
A gender war. My, my, my. Claire, I'd love to hear from you on this.
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And that feels new. I feel like it's typically been the other way around. Yeah.
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The political power of Gen Z women
Coming up, a theory on the political divide within Gen Z itself.
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The political power of Gen Z women
What caused it and how it potentially impacted the 2024 election? After this quick break.
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The political power of Gen Z women
Rachel, you've done some interesting analysis on the political divide within Gen Z itself. I am so riveted by this. Your research suggests younger members of Gen Z are actually a little more conservative than their older counterparts within the same generation. What do you think is behind that?
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The political power of Gen Z women
really, really interesting. We've discussed on this show plenty of times how outcomes educationally, professionally for young men have really changed in this past generation. But it makes me wonder, like, Rachel, what are young men saying in your listening sessions, like about how they feel in this particular moment, and how that informs their political leanings?
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The political power of Gen Z women
I'm also thinking about some of the reporting that you've done, Claire, and also some of the research and conversations that you've had, Rachel, where young men that you've spoken to say that what made them want to vote for Trump, like the economy, even if the Trump campaign's economic propositions were a bit hollow or unclear.
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The political power of Gen Z women
And so I'm wondering, like, why would Trump be so appealing to these young men? even if his platform didn't necessarily speak clearly to their concerns or their concerns might have been more addressed by a Democratic platform.
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The political power of Gen Z women
Well, we are going to find out with founder of the Up and Up newsletter, Rachel Janfaza, and New York Times reporter, Claire Kane Miller. Rachel, Claire, welcome to It's Been a Minute.
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The political power of Gen Z women
This growing divide between Gen Z men and Gen Z women, do we see this trend continuing to grow, this gap between young men and young women continuing to grow politically?
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The political power of Gen Z women
It's great to be here. So you two, what do you think is the biggest difference between Gen Z women and millennial women?
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Why is Trump "Flooding the Zone?"
But there's a difference between this version and the way the song is traditionally sung. What time signature did music director Ricky Miner change the anthem to? A, 3-4. B, 4-4. Or C, 2-4. 4-4. 4-4.
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Oh, my gosh. Wow. Jonathan, first of all, you gagged me with your Whitney knowledge. I know. Yes. Now, Whitney did sing live, but the lip sync is what viewers at home heard, which is most of us, honestly. You've given the listeners something to hold on to. I have to say, you're both correct. The answer is 4-4. Danielle, you did get it first. You did get it first. The point goes to you.
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Why is Trump "Flooding the Zone?"
Congratulations. But on the decision to slow the anthem down, Minor, the musical director, said, you've got to leave some room for magic. And that is where Whitney came in and really just sang from her heart. And I am inclined to agree. All right. Well, that's it for But Did You Know for this week. Congratulations to Danielle on your win.
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Why is Trump "Flooding the Zone?"
Is this the first time you've ever won or is this not the first time you've ever won?
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I have to say, Danielle, Jonathan, thank you both so much for joining me today. It was great to have you both.
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Why is Trump "Flooding the Zone?"
Before you could understand what one executive order means and how it might impact you, bam, another three decisions have been made and you are stuck between Googling what tariffs are and making sure you can still access your health care. But what if I told you that this strategy had a name that's been circling since before Trump 2.0?
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Why is Trump "Flooding the Zone?"
Back in 2019, former chief strategist for the first Trump administration, Steve Bannon, told Frontline PBS that Trump's real opposition wasn't the Democrats, it was the media.
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Why is Trump "Flooding the Zone?"
As in, hit the American people with such an overwhelming barrage of government action that we don't know where to look or what to address first. We got a taste of this strategy in the first Trump presidency, but this time it seems to be in overdrive. And let me just say, it's working on me. I am overwhelmed. But will this strategy work at getting the president's agenda accomplished?
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Why is Trump "Flooding the Zone?"
So first, I want to know, what's the immediate effect of flooding the zone? And why does it feel so different this time? Danielle, we'll start with you.
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Why is Trump "Flooding the Zone?"
Jonathan, I'd love to hear from you on this. Why does it feel different this time in 2025?
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Why is Trump "Flooding the Zone?"
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. This week, we're connecting the dots between the stroke of a pen, handmade biscuits, and late-night truth social posts. I know, I know. How are all of these things connected?
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Why is Trump "Flooding the Zone?"
I wonder, why is this strategy so difficult to counter?
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Why is Trump "Flooding the Zone?"
Hmm. What you witnessed on that call, that indivisible call, kind of, it seems like it matches with what some voters are experiencing on the other end of things, feeling like there's like a lack of Democratic action or lack of action from the Democrats. I wonder, does this strategy work from a policy perspective?
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Why is Trump "Flooding the Zone?"
Like, I know some of Trump's executive orders, like the challenge to birthright citizenship, have already been stopped in the courts. So how effective is this at actually accomplishing his agenda?
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Why is Trump "Flooding the Zone?"
And then it moves you through time. Music is architecture in time. If you engage in the moment with what you're listening to, you do lose a sense of the time around you.
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Why is Trump "Flooding the Zone?"
Well, we're going to find out with NPR's White House correspondent, Danielle Kurtzleben, and MSNBC Morning Joe co-host, Jonathan Lemire. Danielle, Jonathan, welcome to It's Been a Minute.
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Why is Trump "Flooding the Zone?"
Yeah, I mean, there's a little bit of theater in that. It reminds me, different, but it reminds me of this fast food chain in North Carolina called Biscuitville. There's like this plexiglass room or part of the kitchen where somebody is always making biscuits by hand, hand cutting these biscuits. I mean, they taste fine, but there's a little bit of theater added into the mix.
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Why is Trump "Flooding the Zone?"
Like, it goes without saying that if you're a president, we expect that you're going to be sitting at your desk signing things. To put yourself in the middle of an arena doing it, that is a very, it's a very deliberate choice. It's definitely meant to communicate something very baldly to your constituents.
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Why is Trump "Flooding the Zone?"
You know, among those who oppose these policies, there seems to be two major camps of thought. Camp one seems to be, you know, this is all bluster and Trump has no plan. And camp two seems to be, there is a very organized plan. perhaps a la Project 2025, and this is the execution of it. How much would you say of one or the other are we experiencing right now?
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Why is Trump "Flooding the Zone?"
Are we kind of in a planless moment with Trump? Or is all of this kind of going according to plan?
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Why is Trump "Flooding the Zone?"
Always happy to be here. Would you rather be caught up in a tornado or a hurricane? Hurricane.
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Why is Trump "Flooding the Zone?"
So, you know, I think it's fair to say that the zone has been flooded. And so I wonder, what can we do to stay afloat in the flood? Like, what can we as everyday people, as news consumers, as constituents, as voters, do to kind of stay afloat in this overwhelm of information?
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Why is Trump "Flooding the Zone?"
Interesting. I choose tornado. Maybe that's just because of where I'm from, you know, the Midwest. And I would just go down into the basement and stick there as long as I can. But I think we can all agree that the past few weeks have felt almost as overwhelming as natural disaster with the amount of news there has been to cover and follow. Sometimes it feels like I am drowning in information.
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Why is Trump "Flooding the Zone?"
I agree that this is not the time to disengage as far as letting the overwhelm take over. But yeah, it is a lot to keep up with. And we're only a few weeks in. Well, Danielle, Jonathan, I have learned so much here. Thank you both so much. Yeah, of course.
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Why is Trump "Flooding the Zone?"
And as a thank you, I'd like to teach you something by playing a game with you all. Can you stick around?
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Why is Trump "Flooding the Zone?"
All righty. We'll be right back with a little game I like to call, But Did You Know? Stick around. All right, all right. You're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce here with NPR's Danielle Kurtzleben and The Atlantic's Jonathan Lemire. And we're going to play a little game I like to call, But Did You Know? Here's how it works.
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Why is Trump "Flooding the Zone?"
I'm going to share a story that's been making headlines this week. And as I give you some background on the story, I'll also ask you trivia related to it. But don't worry. It's all multiple choice. And the first one to blurt out the right answer gets a point. The person with the most points wins. And their prize is bragging rights. Are you ready? Yeah.
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Why is Trump "Flooding the Zone?"
All right. To start, Super Bowl 59 will be held on Sunday, February 9th at the Caesars Superdome in New Orleans, Louisiana. This game is a rare rematch between Super Bowl 57 competitors, the Philadelphia Eagles and the Kansas City Chiefs. That Super Bowl also featured an appearance from which original Broadway dream girl singing lift every voice and sing?
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Why is Trump "Flooding the Zone?"
Was it A, Jennifer Holliday, B, Loretta Devine, or C, Cheryl Lee Ralph? The first one, Holiday. Danielle says Jennifer Holiday. Jonathan, what say you?
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Why is Trump "Flooding the Zone?"
I'll go with B. Loretta Devine. Well, unfortunately, you're both wrong.
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Why is Trump "Flooding the Zone?"
The answer was C, Cheryl Lee Ralph, the original Dina in Dreamgirls. She delivered the Negro National Anthem 123 years to the date after its first public performance in 1900. How about that? Ooh.
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Why is Trump "Flooding the Zone?"
All right, question number two. One of the time-honored cultural traditions of the United States is the Super Bowl halftime show held between the second and third quarters. In 1996, the boss, not Bruce Springsteen, but Miss Diana Ross took over the 30th Super Bowl halftime show, finishing her routine with what stunt? A. Being lifted into the sky by a helicopter.
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Why is Trump "Flooding the Zone?"
B. Sinking into the ground in a sea of pyrotechnics. Or C. Being carried off the field by a group of Navy SEALs.
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Why is Trump "Flooding the Zone?"
And that feeling might be by design. Let's get into it. We are a little over two weeks into the new administration and President Trump has signed at least 45 executive orders with a stroke of his pen addressing all manner of American life and government from the military to K-12 education. And it's happening kind of rapid fire.
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Why is Trump "Flooding the Zone?"
Okay. Well, Danielle, you are absolutely right. No. Really? You did a good job with that one. Yeah, the answer. And when we were prepping this game, I did not think, I actually had the same answer as you, Jonathan. I was like, there's no way they had a helicopter that close to the ground. That seems dangerous. But the answer is A, being lifted up into the sky by helicopter.
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Why is Trump "Flooding the Zone?"
With hair blowing in the wind, Miss Ross was lifted up and out of the stadium while I Will Survive played below her. Talk about a visual.
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Why is Trump "Flooding the Zone?"
No kidding. Well, you know what they say. A true diva knows how to make a grand entrance and an even grander exit. All right. To recap the score, Danielle, you are at one point. Jonathan, you are at zero points. Without further ado, the final question. Winner takes all. The most revered version of the Star Spangled Banner is undoubtedly Whitney Houston's rendition for Super Bowl 35.
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Thin is back in, but did it ever leave us?
Hello, hello, Brittany here. Before we start the show today, the end of another year is coming up and our team is looking back at all the conversations we've been able to bring to you about what's going on in culture. Things we could only do because of your support.
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Thin is back in, but did it ever leave us?
3,687 pardons. A lot of FDR's pardons were individuals involved in labor strikes, protests, and prohibition offenders. Okay, let's go, FDR. I know. I was like, okay, pro-labor. I'm interested. I'm interested. All right. Well, that's it for But Did You Know? For this week, congratulations to Emma on your win.
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She's an author and culture writer for Vogue magazine and Kate Mann. She's an author and philosophy professor at Cornell University. Emma, Kate, welcome. Welcome to It's Been a Minute.
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Thin is back in, but did it ever leave us?
That's what we love to hear. Oh my gosh. Well, Kate, Emma, thank you both so much for joining me today. This is great.
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Thin is back in, but did it ever leave us?
Well, that was Emma Spector. She's an author and writer for Vogue magazine and Kate Mann. She's an author and philosophy professor at Cornell university. I'm going to take a quick break. And when I get back, I'm taking a field trip to anime con to find out why there are so many black anime fans. This has to be truthfully one of the bigger conventions that comes to the Javits.
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And I've been here for DragCon, been here for BravoCon. If I thought BravoCon was big, this is like blowing BravoCon out the water. In winter 2023, my producer Alexis took me to Anime NYC. And it was an experience. It's a convention held in the heart of Manhattan, and everywhere I looked, there were people dressed up as their favorite anime characters and celebrating Japanese culture.
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Thin is back in, but did it ever leave us?
And I was overwhelmed by the amount of people that showed up. Over 63,000 attendees. Obviously, anime has been having a moment. Western demand for this genre has been growing for decades, and it includes some of the biggest franchises in the world, like Dragon Ball Z, Sailor Moon, and of course, Pokemon. Pikachu! I myself have recently joined the ranks of anime fandom.
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Shout out to Kiki's Delivery Service. And I knew being a Black fan wasn't necessarily uncommon, but it wasn't until we went to Anime NYC that I was like, whoa. First of all, million black people in here.
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So good to have you both. Just out of curiosity, what is your favorite thing to be?
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It's just like being any place else in New York.
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I'm a newbie myself. And part of what even got me into this was just all these different anime memes made by Black people. You know black people love them a meme, Charles. I was like, I don't understand this. And I want to be let into the club. The black anime fandom is out here.
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Thin is back in, but did it ever leave us?
Wait, that is from an anime show? That must have been such a cool like wink wink moment.
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Oh, I like those. Those are good descriptors.
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So how did anime go from being something kind of dorky to being embraced by both the fastest man in the world and one of the biggest rappers out right now? And also, what is it about anime that speaks to Black people specifically?
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That is amazing. I could never say that about myself. So I really admire that in others. Well, let me set the scene for what we're going to unpack here. Last week, a micro-influencer who goes by the username SlimKim found her 15 seconds of fame when she uploaded a video to TikTok about her favorite thing to be.
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It was amazing how far back and how deep so many people's anime fandom went.
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I never expected a movie about a child witch who loses her magic because she just balls too hard. I did not think that a children's movie was going to give me some of the first steps I needed to be able to cure my burnout. I didn't see that one coming. Society was kind of depending on witches to make things happen.
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I mean, not to get too deep with it, maybe the way the society expects Black women, okay, to make things happen. Listen, we're going to go there. We're going there.
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Cross-racial fandom meaning Black people watching something that doesn't represent them at all, but still finding enjoyment and connection in it.
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You and I dove into some of the biggest cultural shifts in 2024, from the movement to make America male again, the Hawk Tua phenomenon, and the Real House Wifification of Congress. Phew, it's not only been a minute, it's been a year. We've been able to report on these things for you because listeners like you step up to support our work, either by giving to your local station or by joining NPR+.
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Now that he puts it that way, I do see a lot of that reflected in my own enjoyment of Golden Girls. I feel like I connect with them, but they also feel familiar to me. I don't know if I ever would have thought about that that way, but I absolutely see what he's talking about.
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Shakespeare couldn't have written a better line himself. This set off a wave of classic internet discourse around whether these comments were an expression of body positivity or just another phase to fat shaming.
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Oh, that is a very relatable experience. It's so interesting, though, that that was something that both an academic and researcher noticed that also just your everyday fan would pick up on as well. That's so cool.
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Critics of Slim Kim have called the comment gauche and claimed that it uplifts body fascism, but defenders are calling it a matter of personal taste and asking, what's so wrong with loving being skinny? Slim Kim is only one of a growing number of influencers to make these kinds of comments in recent months.
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I mean, unfortunately, it is sadly unsurprising to hear about racism within a fandom community, because I feel like that happens often enough with Star Wars and Hunger Games and whatnot. But I also know that anime isn't exactly perfect as a genre when it comes to representation either. I mean, I'm not deep in the fandom, but I've Definitely heard about some of the hiccups there.
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First of all, Jumpscare. That's the first thing. Jumpscare. He looks honestly like a gollywog, like one of those racist little dolls. I'm serious. I mean, this is a rather rotund character with an all black mask. pitch black body, a big fat red loop for lips. I mean, this looks like a classic Sambo character, but with a turban on top and two like bangles over each arm like a genie.
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And with semaglutides like Ozempic and Magovi now being prescribed for weight loss, I feel like we've all noticed a shift in how we talk about each other's bodies. It's left me wondering, when it comes to fatphobia, why are so many people getting comfortable with saying the quiet part out loud? So I want to ask both of you, Emma, Kate, what is so wrong with loving being skinny?
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It actually sounds like Mr. Popo is quite offensive. Yeah. Broadly, hard body. Yeah.
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cosplay yes you did i mean look i want the listeners to understand alexis was the cosplay queen of anime nyc 2023 let's just make that clear
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Alexis, how did it feel to be not just surrounded by Black anime fans, but to be embraced by them in the middle of celebrating this art form that you've loved for so long?
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That's so beautiful. So you kind of got to have like the full circle moment. Well, Alexis, I really appreciate you sharing your love of anime with me. Like I said, I think you've given me the bug at this point. Thanks for allowing me to do it, Brittany. That was It's Been a Minute producer Alexis Williams.
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Or in other words, what do you hear Slim Kim saying between the lines?
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Thanks again to Dr. David Stevens and Dr. Alfred Martin and to everyone who spoke with us at Anime NYC. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Barton Girdwood, Alexis Williams, Liam McBain, Corey Antonio Rose. Our executive producer is Jasmine Romero. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce.
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Thin is back in, but did it ever leave us?
Because it's more than just creating community. It's kind of reinforcing this kind of beauty mandate. Kate, what about you? What do you hear in Slim Kim saying skinny is her favorite thing to be?
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One thing I found interesting was that even before Kim posted her video, there were other people recently expressing this kind of sentiment about fat bodies. To share some of these quotes with you.
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These two quotes are a big departure from the body positivity movement that ruled the last decade. What is and what isn't a quote unquote good body has always been a culturally shifting ideal. I think we can all agree on that. But is all this content indicative of that ideal shifting? And if so, what is influencing that shift? Emma, I'd love to hear from you first.
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I am inclined to agree with that. Seems like thin's been pretty omnipresent, at least for my entire life. But I'd love to hear from you on this, Kate. What do you think is influencing this shift we're seeing in body ideals back toward thinness?
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Thin is back in, but did it ever leave us?
When you sign up for a simple recurring donation on NPR+, you support our mission of creating a more informed public and get special perks for more than 25 NPR podcasts. like sponsor-free listening and bonus episodes. Join us on the Plus side today at plus.npr.org. That's plus.npr.org. And that link is also in our episode notes. Thank you so much. Now, let's get some culture. Hello, hello.
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Thin is back in, but did it ever leave us?
Or even if you aren't exploring weight loss drugs, fitness trainers and 24-7 access to fresh whole foods are also extremely expensive. I don't want to lose sight of the fact that Miss Slim Kim, Miss Slim Kim is a black woman.
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Thin is back in, but did it ever leave us?
Honestly, when Slim Kim was getting a lot of critique, I saw black women that otherwise had shared progressive views and progressive politics defending her or saying that they can understand where she was coming from to a certain degree, which was really fascinating to me. I've been thinking for days about what that's about.
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Thin is back in, but did it ever leave us?
And the best that I can come up with is that it would make sense that if you cannot access certain privileges in other ways, like through your race or ethnicity, then perhaps accessing the privileges of thinness might become even more appealing to you.
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Thin is back in, but did it ever leave us?
I mean, one of the comments in Slim Kim's video, like on the actual video, said something to the tune of, you know, being thin is as valuable or more valuable than having a master's degree. People were liking that comment. People agreed with that comment, right?
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Thin is back in, but did it ever leave us?
Taking all of this into account, I've seen people connecting the dots between this body policing and fascism. I kind of see where people are coming from. Yeah. There's this idea that the body is meant to be controlled and perfected, which goes hand in hand with eugenics, which is a pillar of fascism.
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Thin is back in, but did it ever leave us?
Like there's a very potent cultural belief that there are ways for you to control your body's appearance, like with GLP-1 psychosemic, which people take for a variety of reasons, including weight loss. And if you're not, then you deserve whatever happens to you. And all that's on you. What do you all make of this connection?
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Thin is back in, but did it ever leave us?
You know, there's going to be people listening to this conversation that are going to be thinking, what does this have to do with me? This doesn't apply to me. This is just pure vanity. This isn't a topic worthy of importance or discussion.
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Thin is back in, but did it ever leave us?
I want to ask each of you, why is it important for anyone and everyone, regardless of what body you have, to pay attention to the direction it seems like we're trending in? What is all of this signaling about what's to come?
It's Been a Minute
Thin is back in, but did it ever leave us?
I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. This week, we're connecting the dots between shapewear, fears, and President Trump. I know, I know. How are all of these things connected? Well, we're going to find out with Emma Spector.
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Thin is back in, but did it ever leave us?
Emma, Kate, I have learned so much here. Thank you both so much for joining us today.
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Thin is back in, but did it ever leave us?
Thank you, Brittany. Thank you, Kate. And as a thank you, I'd like to teach you something by playing a game with you all. Can you stick around for a tiny bit longer? For sure. Absolutely. We'll be right back with a little game I like to call, But Did You Know? Stick around. All right, all right. We're going to play a little game I like to call, What Did You Know? Here's how it works.
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Thin is back in, but did it ever leave us?
I'm going to share a story that's been making headlines this week. And as I give you some background on the story, I'll also ask you trivia related to it. But don't worry, it's all multiple choice. The right answer is in there somewhere. The first one to blurt out the right answer gets a point. Person with the most points wins and their prize is bragging rights. Are y'all ready? Yes. Let's do it.
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Thin is back in, but did it ever leave us?
All right. I love this energy. Okay, to start. Late Sunday evening, President Joe Biden announced he signed a full and unconditional pardon for his son, Hunter Biden. But he isn't the first president to pardon a relative. Which one of these former U.S. presidents also used the power of the Oval Office to pardon a family member? Was it A. Andrew Jackson, B. Bill Clinton, or C. Calvin Coolidge?
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Thin is back in, but did it ever leave us?
Kate says Calvin Coolidge. Emma, what say you? Am I going to go Andrew Jackson? Well, unfortunately, neither one of y'all was right. The answer is B, Bill Clinton. Ugh. On his last day in office in January 2001, Clinton granted 140 pardons. One of those was for his half-brother, Roger Clinton Jr., who was convicted on cocaine distribution charges in 1985.
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Thin is back in, but did it ever leave us?
The time had already been served, but the pardon cleared his criminal record. Mm-hmm. Okay. Question number two, the president's pardon for his son caught major headlines, but he also issued two other pardons on November 25th, carrying on the time-honored tradition of presidentially pardoning turkeys from being eaten on Thanksgiving.
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Which one of these real turkeys was not pardoned by the president this year? Was it A, Abe? B, blossom. Or C, peach. Peach? Abe. Emma says peach. Kate says Abe. And Kate, you were right. The answer is A, Abe. Hooray. Completely random. Yes, good guess, good guess. Abe was actually the name of a turkey pardoned in 2015 by President Obama, who nicknamed Abe Totis, or Turkey of the United States.
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Thin is back in, but did it ever leave us?
There you go. All right, to recap the score, Emma, you are at zero points. Kate, you are at one point. So without further ado, the final question. You know what? Because I'm in a mood today. I want to keep the competition moving. We're going to make this one three points. It's going to be three points so that the winner can take all. All right. Question number three.
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Thin is back in, but did it ever leave us?
While Biden's pardon is certainly notable, it pales in comparison to the thousands of pardons that other presidents have issued. President Franklin Delano Roosevelt, who served 13 years in office, is said to have issued the most pardons. How many? Did he issue A, 1,250 pardons, B, 6,405 pardons, or C, 3,687 pardons? C? Emma says C. I'm going to say B. What's the difference?
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Oaklee, Cohen, & Mateo: why are these Gen-Alpha's hottest names?
Oh my gosh, this is so beautiful. My parents named me Brittany. And that was only because they felt like Ashley wasn't quite right. Little do they know they are functionally in 2025, almost the exact same name for all intents and purposes. So I suppose if Brittany captures my essence, there's probably millions of other women my exact same age that have the same essence as well.
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Oaklee, Cohen, & Mateo: why are these Gen-Alpha's hottest names?
Okay, 21. Well, Naftali, you got the Midas touch today. The answer is B, 19. 19. Johannes von Baumbach is 19 years old and heir to the world's largest privately owned pharmaceutical company, to which I say, if I had that much money at 19 years old, Forever 21 never would have gone bankrupt. Let me tell you that. All righty. Well, that is it for But Did You Know?
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Oaklee, Cohen, & Mateo: why are these Gen-Alpha's hottest names?
Congratulations to Naftali on your win.
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Oaklee, Cohen, & Mateo: why are these Gen-Alpha's hottest names?
Yes. I was like, where are you going to spend your bragging rights?
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Oaklee, Cohen, & Mateo: why are these Gen-Alpha's hottest names?
And to all the billionaires who are listening to this show right now, a reminder that you too can donate to NPR or to me personally whenever you like. And Netta Naftali, thank you both so much for joining me today.
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Oaklee, Cohen, & Mateo: why are these Gen-Alpha's hottest names?
That was NPR's Netta Ulabi and Washington Post senior national political correspondent Naftali Ben-David. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Corey Bridges. Barton Girdwood. This episode was edited by Nina Potok. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sangweni. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR.
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Oaklee, Cohen, & Mateo: why are these Gen-Alpha's hottest names?
I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon.
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Oaklee, Cohen, & Mateo: why are these Gen-Alpha's hottest names?
Well, whether you love your name or you hate it, one thing is true. Everyone's name is deeply personal. But what you might not have realized is that your name is deeply political, too. Let me lay this out. Netta and I were on a call last week and she blew my mind when she started talking about the reddest and bluest, you know, Republican and Democratic baby names.
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Oaklee, Cohen, & Mateo: why are these Gen-Alpha's hottest names?
She found this survey that tracked the top 500 names in states that had gone red or blue in the 2020 presidential election. For Republican boy names, I would have guessed, I don't know, Mike or Peter or Ryan, you know, traditional white guy names. But no, one of the most popular boys names specific to red states was Cohen, a Jewish holy name for priests.
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Oaklee, Cohen, & Mateo: why are these Gen-Alpha's hottest names?
Now over in blue states, some of the most prevalent boy names were Moshe, Santino, and Muhammad. And 84% of baby names specific to blue states were primarily pulled from languages other than English. We will come back to this. The big point here is that names signify something. They, of course, signify us. We hear our parents, friends, and coworkers shouting our name from another room.
It's Been a Minute
Oaklee, Cohen, & Mateo: why are these Gen-Alpha's hottest names?
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. All right, dear listeners, this week, you and I are connecting the dots between a mountain in Alaska, an oak tree in the Midwest, and President Trump's new favorite hobby. I know, I know. How could these things be connected?
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Oaklee, Cohen, & Mateo: why are these Gen-Alpha's hottest names?
The barista at the coffee shop either knows how to spell it or not. And it's the easiest way to identify someone. But our names are also cultural heritages. They come from our parents. And our parents are consciously or unconsciously pulling from the culture they were born into and an imagined culture they want each of us to be a part of.
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Oaklee, Cohen, & Mateo: why are these Gen-Alpha's hottest names?
So what do these newly popular baby names say about the culture parents are trying to build today? And on top of that, since his first days in office, our newly elected president is deeply invested in renaming our cultural landmarks. So whether it's a baby's name or the Gulf of whatever we are calling it this week, how are names powerful political tools that shape our culture?
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Oaklee, Cohen, & Mateo: why are these Gen-Alpha's hottest names?
One of the statistics in the survey that gets to a bigger picture here is that 84% of the top names specific to blue states, places with more diverse populations, were derived from non-English sources, while 90% of the reddest names come from English sources. They have English origins, these names, like Baylor or Stetson or Sutton or Tripp.
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Oaklee, Cohen, & Mateo: why are these Gen-Alpha's hottest names?
That immediately made me think of how earlier last month, President Trump signed an executive order declaring English as this country's official language. Now, Tali, how does that line up with other ways that Trump and conservatives are actively renaming cultural landmarks in the United States? What story of America are they trying to tell?
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Oaklee, Cohen, & Mateo: why are these Gen-Alpha's hottest names?
Yeah, speaking of a different story of America, I am also thinking about how Mateo became a top 10 name, a name like Mateo that is derived from Spanish.
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Oaklee, Cohen, & Mateo: why are these Gen-Alpha's hottest names?
And now I kind of got the sense that when President Trump moved to make English the official language of the United States, that Spanish, which is becoming more and more prevalent and more and more useful to speak in the United States, couldn't help but think that Spanish was one of the languages that perhaps the president was trying to avoid being spoken in the country.
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Oaklee, Cohen, & Mateo: why are these Gen-Alpha's hottest names?
Yes, I definitely think that question of identity, you know, like what traditions you want to link your children to, it comes up especially when you look at the new names popping up in red states. There's this theme that's emerging that connects with nature. We're seeing names like Renly or Sailor with a Y. Nada, what surprised you about some of the newly prevalent red state names?
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Oaklee, Cohen, & Mateo: why are these Gen-Alpha's hottest names?
I don't know. When I hear these names, Oak Lee's, L-E-E, L-E-I-G-H, L-E-Y, the Wren Lee's. Oakland, even they feel very culturally white to me. It almost kind of invokes to a certain degree to like the kind of trad wife culture that has become so, so, so popular on social media and reality TV and beauty influencing.
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Oaklee, Cohen, & Mateo: why are these Gen-Alpha's hottest names?
Also, like they're kind of pointing towards a specific kind of whiteness that is perhaps becoming more prevalent in the United States and American culture more broadly.
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Oaklee, Cohen, & Mateo: why are these Gen-Alpha's hottest names?
zooming out into the political. Naftali, you know, we've been talking a little bit about nature and President Donald Trump and his administration, they have chosen to put forth changes to some of America's big landmarks.
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Oaklee, Cohen, & Mateo: why are these Gen-Alpha's hottest names?
Well, we are going to find out with NPR culture correspondent, Neda Ulabi. Thanks, Brittany. And Naftali Ben-David, senior national political correspondent for The Washington Post. Thanks for having me. And, you know, you both have such beautiful names. I'm wondering, do you feel like your parents got it right? Do you feel like your names capture your essence?
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Oaklee, Cohen, & Mateo: why are these Gen-Alpha's hottest names?
You know, as you mentioned, Trump announced that he wanted to change the Gulf of Mexico to the Gulf of America or change a mountain in Alaska, currently named Mount Denali, which is the traditional native name of the mountain, back to Mount McKinley. And then there's the Anahuac, National Refuge in Texas, which is an indigenous name that Trump wants to rename after Jocelyn Nungere.
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Oaklee, Cohen, & Mateo: why are these Gen-Alpha's hottest names?
I know that one of the most important examples of Trump's renaming obsession for you, Naftali, was his renaming of two military outposts to Fort Bragg and Fort Benning. Those had been changed following the post-George Floyd protests and moment of 2020 because they were named after Confederate generals. But Trump has changed them back.
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Oaklee, Cohen, & Mateo: why are these Gen-Alpha's hottest names?
But also, I thought Congress had passed a law that people literally could not name things after Confederate figures. So how did Trump get here?
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Oaklee, Cohen, & Mateo: why are these Gen-Alpha's hottest names?
What's the theory for why the Trump administration would want to go to such great lengths for this? Why is this renaming so important?
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Oaklee, Cohen, & Mateo: why are these Gen-Alpha's hottest names?
Well, Netta Naftali, thank you both so much. I've learned so much and you both have given me so much to think about. Thank you so much, Brittany. This was great.
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Oaklee, Cohen, & Mateo: why are these Gen-Alpha's hottest names?
And as a thank you, I would like to teach you something about some of the richest people in the world. Can you stick around for a tiny bit longer? You bet. Of course. All right. We'll be right back with a little game I like to call, but did you know, stick around.
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Oaklee, Cohen, & Mateo: why are these Gen-Alpha's hottest names?
All right, all right. We are going to play a little game I like to call, But Did You Know? Here's how it works. I'm going to share a story that's been making headlines this week and ask you trivia about it. But don't worry, it's all multiple choice. And the first one to blurt out the right answer gets a point. The person with the most points wins and their prize is bragging rights.
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Oaklee, Cohen, & Mateo: why are these Gen-Alpha's hottest names?
Are y'all ready? Ready. All right. That's what I like to hear. Okay. To start, Forbes just dropped its annual billionaire list. And for those who have been listening for a while... you might know that we played a game on this last year. So Naftali and Netta, I hope you were paying attention because in 2025, the billionaire list has a new record of total billionaires worldwide.
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Oaklee, Cohen, & Mateo: why are these Gen-Alpha's hottest names?
Hint, none of them are me. How many billionaires are there? A. 2,028 billionaires. B, 3,028 billionaires. Or C, 4,028 billionaires.
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Oaklee, Cohen, & Mateo: why are these Gen-Alpha's hottest names?
Oh, that's beautiful. What about you, Netta?
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Oaklee, Cohen, & Mateo: why are these Gen-Alpha's hottest names?
Naftali says B. What say you, Netta?
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Oaklee, Cohen, & Mateo: why are these Gen-Alpha's hottest names?
All right. Well, I'll tell you what. Naftali, you were the early bird and you got the worm. The answer is B, 3,028 billionaires. Does that number surprise either of you?
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Oaklee, Cohen, & Mateo: why are these Gen-Alpha's hottest names?
If I met one, I would definitely give them my bank account number.
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Oaklee, Cohen, & Mateo: why are these Gen-Alpha's hottest names?
That's what I'm saying. You know, just from an ethical perspective, it's like, I don't know, like just spread it around, share the wealth, share with me. Personally, if I had that kind of money, I would fund public media for the next decade and buy myself an affordable home and a walkable neighborhood. But what would you do with it? Oh, I would fund public media for the next millennia.
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Oaklee, Cohen, & Mateo: why are these Gen-Alpha's hottest names?
You're so much more generous than I am. What about you? What about you, Naftali?
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Oaklee, Cohen, & Mateo: why are these Gen-Alpha's hottest names?
I love that. But no fun purchases? Like nobody wants to water ski? Like no fur coat?
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Oaklee, Cohen, & Mateo: why are these Gen-Alpha's hottest names?
Oh, that's a good one. Okay. These are good answers. Y'all are so great. I'm like, I would find out who's making Beyonce's custom wigs and fly them to my home. That's art. That's art. Exactly.
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Oaklee, Cohen, & Mateo: why are these Gen-Alpha's hottest names?
That's what you were going to say? That was your answer now, Tali?
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Oaklee, Cohen, & Mateo: why are these Gen-Alpha's hottest names?
Great minds. Okay. All right. Well, question number two, which of these newly added celebrity billionaires is worth the most money? A. Jerry Seinfeld. B. Arnold Schwarzenegger. Or C. Bruce Springsteen.
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Oaklee, Cohen, & Mateo: why are these Gen-Alpha's hottest names?
The answer is, in fact, C, our blue collar icon, the boss, Bruce Springsteen. And just so you know, Jerry and Arnold are valued at $1.1 billion each, while Bruce tops out at $1.2 billion. Maybe that's some of that catalog in there you're talking about, Netta.
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Oaklee, Cohen, & Mateo: why are these Gen-Alpha's hottest names?
Although I have to add that Mr. Springsteen claimed to The Telegraph last year that he is not a billionaire because he, quote, spent too much money on superfluous things, to which I have to ask, what do you think Bruce spent all his money on? Do you think it was an affordable home in a walkable neighborhood? Yeah.
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Oaklee, Cohen, & Mateo: why are these Gen-Alpha's hottest names?
Maybe he's just getting all of his blue jeans repaired. I don't know. I really feel like it could be denim related. Like maybe he has, I don't know, a denim addiction. Who knows? All right. Well, to recap the score, Netta, you are at zero points and Naftali, you're at two points. All right. So without further ado, the final question, and to keep this spicy...
It's Been a Minute
2025 Predictions: social media is OUT & food politics are IN
Charlie XCX's summer, fall, and winter had us all wanting to sweat it up in the club in 2024. But the club in 2025, is the club in or is it out?
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2025 Predictions: social media is OUT & food politics are IN
Okay, well, you heard it here first. Danielle and Bobby are saying it's time to go back to the movies and back to human recommendations for our music. And you know what? I gotta say, I agree. Now, here's what I think is in and out in 2025. Social media as we know it is out and politicizing food is in. I know I'm making some big claims, so let's take them one by one.
It's Been a Minute
2025 Predictions: social media is OUT & food politics are IN
Wait, what about you, Danielle? Is the club in or out?
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2025 Predictions: social media is OUT & food politics are IN
Maybe Resolution hit the club more in 2025? No. No. Look.
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2025 Predictions: social media is OUT & food politics are IN
You're not a 365 party girl, and that is just fine.
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2025 Predictions: social media is OUT & food politics are IN
Okay. I like that 365 house party. Yes. Yeah. There we go. I love that. I love that. All righty. Well, our next In-N-Out for 2025. They made a comeback, but have they already crested? In 2025, wide leg pants. Are they in or out?
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2025 Predictions: social media is OUT & food politics are IN
It's in. It's in. I was going to say, not only is it super big, but unlike the sort of perhaps low-slung JNCO jean, I'm also seeing a higher-waisted pant on many people.
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2025 Predictions: social media is OUT & food politics are IN
I think that high-waisted pants on men and men's clothes is going to be, I feel like we're going to see a lot of high-waisted pants.
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2025 Predictions: social media is OUT & food politics are IN
Yeah, some 70s vibes. Maybe a little William Powell, a little 1930s. We'll see.
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2025 Predictions: social media is OUT & food politics are IN
All righty. One last in and out. Sure, fundraising season is over for now. But fun fact, you can support public media all year round. Danielle, Bobby, in 2025, is donating to your local public radio station in or out?
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2025 Predictions: social media is OUT & food politics are IN
I am contractually obligated to record asking people directly to donate.
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2025 Predictions: social media is OUT & food politics are IN
Congress, I take no opinion. I definitely think it's in for 2025. Yeah. We love to hear it. You can, of course, donate to your local NPR station by going to donate.npr.org. And Bobby, Danielle, thank you so much for doomsday prepping 2025 with me. I really appreciate both of you.
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2025 Predictions: social media is OUT & food politics are IN
Yes, thank you. That was NPR's Bobby Allen and Danielle Kurtzleben. I'm Brittany Luce, and a reminder that my New Year's resolution was to bring you more episodes of It's Been a Minute every week. Starting this week, I'm bringing you content every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. So, on that note, have a great weekend, everybody. I'll be back next Monday.
It's Been a Minute
2025 Predictions: social media is OUT & food politics are IN
This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Barton Girdwood. This episode was edited by Jasmine Romero. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. Talk soon.
It's Been a Minute
2025 Predictions: social media is OUT & food politics are IN
Starting with social media being out. It's not like people won't be using it, but what it means to us and how we think of it culturally continues to shift. You know, there's a little ways, like how influencers aren't influencing like they used to. But there's also the big ways, like in a couple of weeks, we aren't sure if TikTok is even going to be allowed to operate in this country.
It's Been a Minute
2025 Predictions: social media is OUT & food politics are IN
All signs are pointing towards 2025 being the year that social media is less a place where we're finding out about what's happening in the world and more a place where we gather to solidify our identities. Are you feeling what I'm saying? So Bobby, I got a question. Is the social platform TikTok in or out?
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2025 Predictions: social media is OUT & food politics are IN
Because right now, a law Biden signed is set to shut down the app right before President-elect Trump's inauguration in a few weeks. But just last week, Trump asked for the court to pause the shutdown so he could try and broker a sale of the app to an American company. Bobby, is TikTok in or out for 2025?
It's Been a Minute
2025 Predictions: social media is OUT & food politics are IN
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident.
It's Been a Minute
2025 Predictions: social media is OUT & food politics are IN
Check, check, check.
It's Been a Minute
2025 Predictions: social media is OUT & food politics are IN
Yes. This week, we are connecting the dots between influencers, the Supreme Court, and the politics of making America healthy again. I know, I know. How are all of these things connected? Well, we're going to find out with NPR's Danielle Kurtzleben. She covers politics. And NPR's Bobby Allen. He covers tech. Bobby, Danielle, welcome back to It's Been a Minute.
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2025 Predictions: social media is OUT & food politics are IN
Jeez, it feels like a real jump ball moment. Just like we're all kind of waiting around to see what's going to happen.
It's Been a Minute
2025 Predictions: social media is OUT & food politics are IN
Well, the Supreme Court is set to hear arguments about TikTok on January 10th, but Regardless of what happens, there's something a TikTok ban would speed up but definitely won't slow down. And that's the way social media platforms can sometimes act as stand-ins for other cultural signifiers. Just to set the stage, I mean...
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2025 Predictions: social media is OUT & food politics are IN
Yeah, there's the old guard like Facebook, Instagram, Elon Musk's ex, Reddit. And there's also this new generation of platforms like Blue Sky, Truth Social, Telegram.
It's Been a Minute
2025 Predictions: social media is OUT & food politics are IN
They each have a unique political bent, but it also feels totally unsustainable for so many of these platforms to be on the market all at once.
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2025 Predictions: social media is OUT & food politics are IN
Bobby, all of these examples hint to how social media is evolving. We're seeing the way in which people use social media, why they use it is changing. What do you think social media is going to have to mean to people going forward if it's going to survive? How is it going to have to shift?
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2025 Predictions: social media is OUT & food politics are IN
I'm always happy to be here. This is great. Okay, so... 2024 is out. 2025 is in. Please tell me, for each of you personally, what is in and what is out for 2025?
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2025 Predictions: social media is OUT & food politics are IN
All right. Well, I love that you all brought up identity on social media because identity is central to my other big prediction I want to put to you. Coming up, my next 2025 prediction. And you know what? I'm just going to say I'm pretty proud of it. I mean, Danielle loved it at least. I mean, first of all, I couldn't agree more with you on all of that.
It's Been a Minute
2025 Predictions: social media is OUT & food politics are IN
We're getting into the political roller coaster of the movement to make America healthy again after a quick break. All right. Well, I love that you all brought up identity on social media because identity is central to my other big prediction I want to put to you. I think that food is going to become even more so, even more so a way for us to express our politics in 2025.
It's Been a Minute
2025 Predictions: social media is OUT & food politics are IN
I mean, it already is kind of the case. I mean, for example, like with how inflation became a rallying cry for Republicans in the last election. I mean, there was so much talk about the price of groceries last year. Trump and Harris both talked at length about it on the campaign trail. And then on top of that, I'm sure you all knew this name was coming. Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
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2025 Predictions: social media is OUT & food politics are IN
is being tapped to lead the Department of Health and Human Services. And he's got a lot of opinions about food. Some of them founded, perhaps, many unfounded. And thinking like culturally, there's also like the microbloggers of 2024, the trad wives who express this quiet conservative politic by cooking food. from scratch, like literal scratch ingredients.
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2025 Predictions: social media is OUT & food politics are IN
I think I saw one woman grow cocoa beans to make her own chocolate that she then used as an ingredient in another recipe. That'll never be me, but God bless. Organic and whole foods used to be the realm of liberalism and the left. Danielle, all of this is saying to me that the politics of food are evolving. I'm curious what you make of this. How
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2025 Predictions: social media is OUT & food politics are IN
Coming from a one Hannah Nealman, a.k.a. Miss Ballerina Farm.
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2025 Predictions: social media is OUT & food politics are IN
I just learned about him recently.
It's Been a Minute
2025 Predictions: social media is OUT & food politics are IN
In thinking about RFK Jr., though, and his feelings about what it means to eat healthily, I can't help but think of this one image that I'm sure we all saw that captured this kind of cultural clash that we might see around politics and food in the coming months. RFK Jr., as we know, has been very vocal about his concerns with processed foods.
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2025 Predictions: social media is OUT & food politics are IN
There's this photo of him sitting with President-elect Trump and Elon Musk and Speaker of the House Mike Johnson All of them eating McDonald's. To some, it seemed like Trump was, you know, perhaps putting RFQ Jr. in his place, right? You're getting this guy who's so against processed foods to sit and break bread with you over McDonald's.
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2025 Predictions: social media is OUT & food politics are IN
But it also was this image that showed how wide ranging Republican, specifically Republican views on food can be from being, you know, anti-processed foods to embracing McDonald's. The ultimate, literally the ultimate symbol of fast food. That's a wide political tent.
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2025 Predictions: social media is OUT & food politics are IN
It's my crutch. I understand what you mean.
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2025 Predictions: social media is OUT & food politics are IN
Yeah. Like, I don't see it as a strong possibility that anybody will get politically very far, like, advocating for the Ricky Bobby diet. You know what I mean? All righty. Well... close this all out. I want to do a lightning round of ins and outs. I'm going to put something to both of you and I want you to blur it out whether you think it's in or it's out. Okay. Deal. Okay. Love it. Here we go.
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Are you pope-pilled? Here's your guide to the 2025 Conclave.
Question number two. Pope Leo XIII's 25 years as pope made him the fourth longest serving pope of all time. Pope Urban VII is famous for having the shortest reign ever. How many calendar days was his papacy? Was it A, five days, B, 10 days, or C, 12 days? I think A. I'm going to go C. Wow. The answer is C, 12 days. Wow. Wow.
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Are you pope-pilled? Here's your guide to the 2025 Conclave.
Pope Urban VII was elected pope on September 15th, 1590, but unfortunately died 12 days later on September 27th at the age of 69 due to malaria. Oh, my God. R.I.P. Tragic ending. R.I.P. All right. Well, to recap the score, Antonia, you are at two points. Jason, you are at zero points. It's not right. It's not right. There's so much more.
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Are you pope-pilled? Here's your guide to the 2025 Conclave.
And during this process, the cardinals, they get a little messy as they form political factions and jockey for votes to become the next pontiff. Well, we are about to see that same process play out next week as the world's cardinals converge on Vatican City.
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Are you pope-pilled? Here's your guide to the 2025 Conclave.
No. All right. So something that I like to do to shake it up. So third question is going to be winner takes all. Okay. Okay. Pope Leo X was one of the most lavish popes in history, known for his spending on the arts, charities, his friends, and even himself. I wish I could have been his friend. He sounds fab.
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Are you pope-pilled? Here's your guide to the 2025 Conclave.
He even managed to spend all the treasures of the previous pope, driving the papacy into debt.
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Are you pope-pilled? Here's your guide to the 2025 Conclave.
I know. Diva down. What powerful, wealthy family was Pope Leo X a member of? Was it... A, the House of Borgia, B, the House of Habsburg, or C, the House of Medici?
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Are you pope-pilled? Here's your guide to the 2025 Conclave.
Jason, by a razor-thin edge, okay. The answer is C, House of Medici. Pope Leo X wasn't the only Medici to hold the papacy. The wealthy European family produced three other popes in Pope Clement VII, Pope Pius IV, and Pope Leo XI. The 11th. Jason, I feel like it's the end of the Super Bowl. You just won the ring. I'm stunned. I'm stunned right now. Oh, my gosh. All right. Well, that's it.
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Are you pope-pilled? Here's your guide to the 2025 Conclave.
But did you know for this week, congratulations to Jason on your win. Congrats. Holding it down.
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Are you pope-pilled? Here's your guide to the 2025 Conclave.
Well-deserved. Well-deserved. Jason and Tonya, thank you both so much for joining me today.
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Are you pope-pilled? Here's your guide to the 2025 Conclave.
That was NPR's religion correspondent, Jason DeRose, and the host of LAist's Imperfect Paradise, Antonia Sarahito. This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Corey Bridges. This episode was edited by Nina Potok. Our executive producer is Barton Girdwood. Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR.
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Are you pope-pilled? Here's your guide to the 2025 Conclave.
And there is quite a bit at stake here because these men are going to ultimately decide the ideological direction of a church with 1.4 billion followers globally. So that has me wondering, what are the current factions within the Catholic Church? How will Pope Francis's legacy impact the upcoming conclave? And what should we make of Catholicism's broader cultural influence right now?
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Are you pope-pilled? Here's your guide to the 2025 Conclave.
I know, Jason, that you have seen the movie Conclave, like many of us have. But you are somebody that covers this stuff hard by. You are in Rome right now, okay? So I want to hear the real from you. How exactly does the Conclave work?
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Are you pope-pilled? Here's your guide to the 2025 Conclave.
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. This week, we're connecting the dots between Hollywood, Vatican City, and Lampedusa. I know, I know. How are all of these places connected?
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Are you pope-pilled? Here's your guide to the 2025 Conclave.
Wow, okay. So what does the actual voting process look like?
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Are you pope-pilled? Here's your guide to the 2025 Conclave.
I was going to say, I feel like in this conclave too, many of them have never even met. I don't know if I could recognize the handwriting of a complete stranger from a hundred something other people.
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Are you pope-pilled? Here's your guide to the 2025 Conclave.
Yeah, I read that they used to meet like twice yearly or something like that. And even that hasn't happened in a while. So this is going to be a good mix. How have you all seen people or the public at large in general kind of attach to or talk about these papabilas, these possible popes?
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Are you pope-pilled? Here's your guide to the 2025 Conclave.
Yeah. Jason, what are you hearing? You're in Rome right now. You're on the ground. What have you observed?
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Are you pope-pilled? Here's your guide to the 2025 Conclave.
I mean, I could see a little hometown bias in that, for sure, for sure. As I was researching, I had a whole list. I was starting with like 25, 30 names and I was like whittling it down.
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Are you pope-pilled? Here's your guide to the 2025 Conclave.
The full board, like some strings connected.
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Are you pope-pilled? Here's your guide to the 2025 Conclave.
I want to reflect a little bit before we get into this upcoming conclave. I want to reflect a little bit on Pope Francis's papacy. What was his influence on the church and how will he be remembered? I want to start with you, Antonia, on this and then go to you, Jason.
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Are you pope-pilled? Here's your guide to the 2025 Conclave.
Well, we're going to find out with NPR's religion correspondent, Jason DeRose, and the LAist's Antonia Serahito. Jason, Antonia, welcome to It's Been a Minute.
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Are you pope-pilled? Here's your guide to the 2025 Conclave.
Wearing that hard like Montclair-esque winter coat that was clearly AI generated, but I wanted one.
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Yeah, Jason, please.
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Are you pope-pilled? Here's your guide to the 2025 Conclave.
All right, second question. If you were a cardinal in the Vatican right now, would you be one of the chain vapors? Like everyone's like third favorite cardinal from the 2024 film Conclave. Would you be chain vaping right now in the Vatican? Jason, would you?
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Are you pope-pilled? Here's your guide to the 2025 Conclave.
And that seems like a significant move.
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Are you pope-pilled? Here's your guide to the 2025 Conclave.
But one of the things that was so interesting is that even though Pope Francis became something of a political figure, you know, there's not really a clear cut way of thinking about the various political positions of these various cardinals. And so I wonder, like, if the new pope were to be more conservative than Pope Francis, how would that affect the global culture overall? around Catholicism.
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Are you pope-pilled? Here's your guide to the 2025 Conclave.
And is that even the right way to think about all of this?
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Are you pope-pilled? Here's your guide to the 2025 Conclave.
I love that principled answer. What about you, Antonia?
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Are you pope-pilled? Here's your guide to the 2025 Conclave.
Yeah, even when you consider the acrimonious relationship between, say, Donald Trump and J.D. Vance and the Pope. The Pope had some pretty strong words for J.D. Vance, who is a Catholic, shortly before he passed away. Some people have made humorous remarks, like trying to insinuate that – J.D. Vance upset the Pope so that he simply could not go on living.
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Are you pope-pilled? Here's your guide to the 2025 Conclave.
But yeah, I mean, you summed up a lot of the reasons why I have become, you know, conclave-pilled, as some people have been saying.
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Are you pope-pilled? Here's your guide to the 2025 Conclave.
I got one last question. Jason, your editor, Daniel Burke, mentioned that the Cardinals are essentially picking their boss, which kind of blew my mind when he brought that up, because most people don't have the opportunity to do that at their jobs. So why is it helpful to think about this conclave as a workplace saga? I'm wondering. I'd love to hear from both of you on this.
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Are you pope-pilled? Here's your guide to the 2025 Conclave.
I actually don't vape myself at this point in my life. If I was doing something that consequential, I could see myself getting a little jewel. That's just my opinion. Now, I will say I loved the scenes of any cardinal vaping in the Academy Award-winning film Conclave. It follows a fictional portrayal of the papal conclave following the sudden death of a fictional pope. Sound familiar?
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Are you pope-pilled? Here's your guide to the 2025 Conclave.
It's kind of sick. I'm kind of into that actually. I'm like, maybe we need a conclave at more workplaces and see who survives. Maybe that's the key. Well, Jason, Antonia, I have learned so much here. Thank you both so much.
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Are you pope-pilled? Here's your guide to the 2025 Conclave.
Thanks so much. And as a thank you, I'd like to teach you something by playing a game with you all. Can you stick around for a tiny bit longer? Absolutely. Okay. I'm nervous. Don't be nervous. I am so nervous. Listen, the game is a blast. Okay.
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Are you pope-pilled? Here's your guide to the 2025 Conclave.
We'll be right back with a little game I like to call, But Did You Know? Stick around.
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Are you pope-pilled? Here's your guide to the 2025 Conclave.
All right, all right. We are going to play a little game I like to call, but did you know? Here's how it works. I'm going to share a story that's been making headlines this week, and as I give you some background on the story, I'll also ask you trivia related to it. But don't worry, it's all multiple choice, so the right answer is in there somewhere.
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Are you pope-pilled? Here's your guide to the 2025 Conclave.
Are y'all ready? Okay, yeah. I'm ready. All right. Well, we are going to stick with our papal theme and quiz you two on your knowledge of fun facts about popes in history.
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Are you pope-pilled? Here's your guide to the 2025 Conclave.
You never know. You never know. You never know. You never know. First question is, at 88 years old, Pope Francis was the second oldest pope in history. What age was the oldest to have ever served? Was it... B. Antonia says B. What say you, Jason?
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Are you pope-pilled? Here's your guide to the 2025 Conclave.
Well, Antonia, good job on that one. The answer is B. You were technically both right, but Antonio, you were first, so you get the point. Pope Leo XIII reigned for over 25 years and died at age 93 on July 20th, 1903. He's known for his intellectual spirit and his openness to more secular and scientific ideas compared to previous pontiffs. So there you go. Good to know. All right.
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Hey there, I'm Brittany Luce, and I don't know, maybe this is a little out of pocket to say, but I think you should listen to my podcast. It's called It's Been a Minute, and I love it, and I think you will too. Over the past couple months, over 100,000 new listeners started tuning in. Find out why. Listen to the It's Been a Minute podcast from NPR today.