Clementine Breen

Did you tell them about the abuse? I did not. Well, how much investigation into your history took place? Very little, because the second we got into my history, it just came crumbling down. In my referral, it says that I had held a male identity since childhood. Besides just physical discomfort with my body and just feeling disconnected from girls, it was really no sign of prior gender dysphoria.

Did you tell them about the abuse? I did not. Well, how much investigation into your history took place? Very little, because the second we got into my history, it just came crumbling down. In my referral, it says that I had held a male identity since childhood. Besides just physical discomfort with my body and just feeling disconnected from girls, it was really no sign of prior gender dysphoria.

We had very brief discussions about my childhood, and I expressed that I'd always felt sort of uncomfortable with girls, and that I had mostly male friends. And I talked about my discomfort with the idea of growing and to be a grown woman.

We had very brief discussions about my childhood, and I expressed that I'd always felt sort of uncomfortable with girls, and that I had mostly male friends. And I talked about my discomfort with the idea of growing and to be a grown woman.

That was sort of the very surface-level conversations we had, and I was diagnosed with gender dysphoria on our first meeting, but I had only been— Diagnosed by who? Olson Kennedy.

That was sort of the very surface-level conversations we had, and I was diagnosed with gender dysphoria on our first meeting, but I had only been— Diagnosed by who? Olson Kennedy.

It was around 30 minutes to an hour. It was pretty short. And she spoke with my parents as well. But by the time I was diagnosed, I had only been living as trans for about three months. But the diagnostic criteria is actually six months.

It was around 30 minutes to an hour. It was pretty short. And she spoke with my parents as well. But by the time I was diagnosed, I had only been living as trans for about three months. But the diagnostic criteria is actually six months.

We had multiple clinical discussions. I don't actually know how many times I saw her. All the talk about gender was never beyond social setting. It was never about how I was feeling. It was more about how I wanted to be perceived.

We had multiple clinical discussions. I don't actually know how many times I saw her. All the talk about gender was never beyond social setting. It was never about how I was feeling. It was more about how I wanted to be perceived.

Right, I believe it was pretty shortly after, maybe a month or so, I started seeing Landon because she had referred me to her. And we had sort of similar discussions, and she kept affirming the idea that I was somehow inherently male, and that was the root of my discomfort. Okay.

Right, I believe it was pretty shortly after, maybe a month or so, I started seeing Landon because she had referred me to her. And we had sort of similar discussions, and she kept affirming the idea that I was somehow inherently male, and that was the root of my discomfort. Okay.

It was very, very surface level. And it was all about what I wanted in the future, which for me at the time was very difficult to figure out. And obviously, I just kind of my dream was I wanted to just be totally dissociated from my body, which is not really a healthy mindset at all. But I didn't really, I wasn't 100% certain if I was like...

It was very, very surface level. And it was all about what I wanted in the future, which for me at the time was very difficult to figure out. And obviously, I just kind of my dream was I wanted to just be totally dissociated from my body, which is not really a healthy mindset at all. But I didn't really, I wasn't 100% certain if I was like...

truly male if that was the truth but they kept affirming that my discomfort with my body was related to the fact that i was supposed to be born male and that because i fit in better with males at school or things like that that that was somehow also evidence yeah okay first of all that's not evidence right i mean some boys

truly male if that was the truth but they kept affirming that my discomfort with my body was related to the fact that i was supposed to be born male and that because i fit in better with males at school or things like that that that was somehow also evidence yeah okay first of all that's not evidence right i mean some boys

I had spoken to my guidance counselor about my feelings about my body, and I had suggested that I might be transgender to her, but I had also said that I might be lesbian or bisexual or things like that. We just had a lot of very open-ended conversations. But at a certain point, she sort of latched on to the idea that I might be transgender.

I had spoken to my guidance counselor about my feelings about my body, and I had suggested that I might be transgender to her, but I had also said that I might be lesbian or bisexual or things like that. We just had a lot of very open-ended conversations. But at a certain point, she sort of latched on to the idea that I might be transgender.

And after that meeting, she called my parents and told them, and they're the ones who took me to Olson Kennedy. However, pretty shortly after that conversation with my parents, it was actually my guidance counselor who told my entire school that I was a boy and that they were to only use male pronouns for me and that all the teachers had to call me by a different name.

And after that meeting, she called my parents and told them, and they're the ones who took me to Olson Kennedy. However, pretty shortly after that conversation with my parents, it was actually my guidance counselor who told my entire school that I was a boy and that they were to only use male pronouns for me and that all the teachers had to call me by a different name.

And at the time, it kind of... Felt nice in a way that I didn't have to really do any of it myself, but it also really removed any accountability on my end because I had really no actual control over the decision, and I didn't have to have those conversations face-to-face with my parents or my peers as well. So it was taken out of your hands.

And at the time, it kind of... Felt nice in a way that I didn't have to really do any of it myself, but it also really removed any accountability on my end because I had really no actual control over the decision, and I didn't have to have those conversations face-to-face with my parents or my peers as well. So it was taken out of your hands.

No, and I also, when I was living as trans at that point, before I had gone through with any medicalization, I had just cut my hair short and was wearing baggy clothes, which I was also doing because my body was changing. Yeah. Right, right, right. But people, and what were people calling you at that point?

No, and I also, when I was living as trans at that point, before I had gone through with any medicalization, I had just cut my hair short and was wearing baggy clothes, which I was also doing because my body was changing. Yeah. Right, right, right. But people, and what were people calling you at that point?

At the moment, yeah. Was it only a relief? No, it was definitely mixed emotions because also... I was a bit overwhelmed at the same time because everything happened so fast. I mean, it was just like three months at that time.

At the moment, yeah. Was it only a relief? No, it was definitely mixed emotions because also... I was a bit overwhelmed at the same time because everything happened so fast. I mean, it was just like three months at that time.

Yeah, at school I was... I wouldn't call myself popular, but I had friends and people liked me. I was fairly well liked. I was definitely, as I hit puberty, I was getting more awkward and definitely more reserved and shy. Going through puberty definitely triggered something in me that was kind of...

Yeah, at school I was... I wouldn't call myself popular, but I had friends and people liked me. I was fairly well liked. I was definitely, as I hit puberty, I was getting more awkward and definitely more reserved and shy. Going through puberty definitely triggered something in me that was kind of...

noticeable from other people around me right and when i originally came out as transgender i lost a ton of friends sort of immediately but after a year or so i started getting way more popular than i had ever been while living as female and why i think it was because of

noticeable from other people around me right and when i originally came out as transgender i lost a ton of friends sort of immediately but after a year or so i started getting way more popular than i had ever been while living as female and why i think it was because of

the sort of initial confidence boost that I had, but also I definitely felt more comfortable asserting myself in ways that are traditionally masculine that I was sort of reserved from before. Definitely just because I was insecure and shy, I don't think... that my trans identity benefited me in any way. But I did notice that people started to respect me more.

the sort of initial confidence boost that I had, but also I definitely felt more comfortable asserting myself in ways that are traditionally masculine that I was sort of reserved from before. Definitely just because I was insecure and shy, I don't think... that my trans identity benefited me in any way. But I did notice that people started to respect me more.

I started taking testosterone at 13.

I started taking testosterone at 13.

Pretty quickly, my voice started to deepen a bit and I started to grow facial hair. My stature changed. I got a bit more confident and I was very restless and angry all the time. As my dose increased, I started having very, very negative side effects that eventually sort of diverged into full-blown psychosis. But at the time that I was 13, that wasn't happening yet.

Pretty quickly, my voice started to deepen a bit and I started to grow facial hair. My stature changed. I got a bit more confident and I was very restless and angry all the time. As my dose increased, I started having very, very negative side effects that eventually sort of diverged into full-blown psychosis. But at the time that I was 13, that wasn't happening yet.

Okay, how? I think once I started to physically conform to the male identity, it was easier for people to see me that way, which also definitely made me feel better in a short-term sense, but it didn't actually resolve any of the mental problems I was experiencing.

Okay, how? I think once I started to physically conform to the male identity, it was easier for people to see me that way, which also definitely made me feel better in a short-term sense, but it didn't actually resolve any of the mental problems I was experiencing.

Yeah, I started to discuss that around 17 with a different therapist.

Yeah, I started to discuss that around 17 with a different therapist.

It was a while, yeah. Why the lag, and then why did you decide to delve into it? Well, I had sort of assumed that my transition would fix all of those issues because that's sort of what I was told, is that my body issues would resolve and that once I started fitting in better at school, I'd feel less shy. And...

It was a while, yeah. Why the lag, and then why did you decide to delve into it? Well, I had sort of assumed that my transition would fix all of those issues because that's sort of what I was told, is that my body issues would resolve and that once I started fitting in better at school, I'd feel less shy. And...

That did sort of happen, but I also got more reckless and more depressed and more anxious and I could hardly sleep and things like that were just happening. And it got so bad by the time I was 17, I could hardly focus in school. I was up all night, every single night. My insomnia had become psychosis. What were those symptoms? I was having full-blown hallucinations. Auditory or visual?

That did sort of happen, but I also got more reckless and more depressed and more anxious and I could hardly sleep and things like that were just happening. And it got so bad by the time I was 17, I could hardly focus in school. I was up all night, every single night. My insomnia had become psychosis. What were those symptoms? I was having full-blown hallucinations. Auditory or visual?

Visual and auditory. Mostly auditory. It was like hearing voices and whispers and shouting from the other room.

Visual and auditory. Mostly auditory. It was like hearing voices and whispers and shouting from the other room.

It was a lot of, this is all in my therapist notes, but it was a lot of stuff about hurting other people and specifically men, which was something I had actually talked to Landon about. And she attributed to my trans identity. Do you have an alternative attribution? I think that it was because of the sexual abuse that I experienced.

It was a lot of, this is all in my therapist notes, but it was a lot of stuff about hurting other people and specifically men, which was something I had actually talked to Landon about. And she attributed to my trans identity. Do you have an alternative attribution? I think that it was because of the sexual abuse that I experienced.

Certain things would be if I had positive relationships with people, I would always be told to hurt those people or say certain things. In class, it would always be like, you have to get out of here. You have to run or like things like that. Lots of like whisperings that would overlap at times. But it was always trying to get me to do things that were very impulsive.

Certain things would be if I had positive relationships with people, I would always be told to hurt those people or say certain things. In class, it would always be like, you have to get out of here. You have to run or like things like that. Lots of like whisperings that would overlap at times. But it was always trying to get me to do things that were very impulsive.

And sometimes I would do those things and I would act very impulsively or out of control or really high risk behaviors I was doing.

And sometimes I would do those things and I would act very impulsively or out of control or really high risk behaviors I was doing.

Yeah, around 16, 17.

Yeah, around 16, 17.

I went through DBT therapy and that sort of quieted most of my psychosis. However, I was still having some of it until... DBT being? Dialectical behavioral therapy. And after completing that, I was still having some of those symptoms. But once I was fully detoxed off the testosterone, I stopped having hallucinations.

I went through DBT therapy and that sort of quieted most of my psychosis. However, I was still having some of it until... DBT being? Dialectical behavioral therapy. And after completing that, I was still having some of those symptoms. But once I was fully detoxed off the testosterone, I stopped having hallucinations.

I would say it was definitely both, but I would say the cessation of the testosterone stopped the psychosis.

I would say it was definitely both, but I would say the cessation of the testosterone stopped the psychosis.

Okay.

Okay.

discuss what had happened with your parents? I think the main reason was because I was assaulted by somebody who was also a child at the time. They were much older, but they were still a child at the time. So I think in my head, I sort of had the narrative of like, if an adult hurts you, tell another adult. But I wasn't really considering that a child's

discuss what had happened with your parents? I think the main reason was because I was assaulted by somebody who was also a child at the time. They were much older, but they were still a child at the time. So I think in my head, I sort of had the narrative of like, if an adult hurts you, tell another adult. But I wasn't really considering that a child's

actions could be that inappropriate where I'd have to tell somebody. But then by the time I had sort of realized what had happened, I was so ashamed and I felt like there was no way out of it or no way to tell anybody. So I just figured I could resolve it in other ways, like transitioning.

actions could be that inappropriate where I'd have to tell somebody. But then by the time I had sort of realized what had happened, I was so ashamed and I felt like there was no way out of it or no way to tell anybody. So I just figured I could resolve it in other ways, like transitioning.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It still kind of eludes me in how I talk about it. Like, I just sort of got desensitized to talking about it at a certain point, which weirdly helped. But the first time, I could barely even get the words out. Were you guilty about it? I felt very guilty. Why? And especially after all of the transition and all of the things that I had done to just avoid dealing with this.

It still kind of eludes me in how I talk about it. Like, I just sort of got desensitized to talking about it at a certain point, which weirdly helped. But the first time, I could barely even get the words out. Were you guilty about it? I felt very guilty. Why? And especially after all of the transition and all of the things that I had done to just avoid dealing with this.

There was a lot of shame in finally coming out and saying the reason. Why were you guilty, do you think?

There was a lot of shame in finally coming out and saying the reason. Why were you guilty, do you think?

took place? Very little because the second we got into my history, I mean, it just came crumbling down. Like even in my surgical note for my double mastectomy, in my referral, it says that I had held a male identity since childhood, which is just not true. I was a super girly child. I did... choir, in theater, I would play dress-up, I collected dolls. I just had no sign of this until puberty.

took place? Very little because the second we got into my history, I mean, it just came crumbling down. Like even in my surgical note for my double mastectomy, in my referral, it says that I had held a male identity since childhood, which is just not true. I was a super girly child. I did... choir, in theater, I would play dress-up, I collected dolls. I just had no sign of this until puberty.

Besides just physical discomfort with my body and just feeling disconnected from girls, there was really no sign of prior gender dysphoria.

Besides just physical discomfort with my body and just feeling disconnected from girls, there was really no sign of prior gender dysphoria.

No, they almost, it seemed like they didn't really want to talk about my childhood or as if my childhood was totally irrelevant to what was happening now. And it was just something that I hadn't seen before or my parents hadn't seen before because there really were no signs when I was a child.

No, they almost, it seemed like they didn't really want to talk about my childhood or as if my childhood was totally irrelevant to what was happening now. And it was just something that I hadn't seen before or my parents hadn't seen before because there really were no signs when I was a child.

How were you dressing? I was just wearing baggy clothes. It wasn't really dressing like a boy. It was just big shirts and big pants. Okay, okay, right.

How were you dressing? I was just wearing baggy clothes. It wasn't really dressing like a boy. It was just big shirts and big pants. Okay, okay, right.

Why? I think a lot of people were sort of uncomfortable with what was happening. And I also had people at the time point out how out of character this was or how like I had never behaved typically masculine before or I hadn't really expressed interest in masculine things and things like that. People brought it up to me and were very aware of how out of character it was.

Why? I think a lot of people were sort of uncomfortable with what was happening. And I also had people at the time point out how out of character this was or how like I had never behaved typically masculine before or I hadn't really expressed interest in masculine things and things like that. People brought it up to me and were very aware of how out of character it was.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Or for example, I was crying all the time before the testosterone and then after I stopped crying and I just wouldn't have these fits of crying. And in my mind, I was like, oh, that means it's working. I'm getting better.

Yeah. Or for example, I was crying all the time before the testosterone and then after I stopped crying and I just wouldn't have these fits of crying. And in my mind, I was like, oh, that means it's working. I'm getting better.

It was about three months between coming out as trans and then being seen by Dr. Olson. And Dr. Olson recommended puberty blockers immediately, but it took a few months for her to convince my parents to agree to it. Okay. What do you mean by immediately? She immediately asserted that I was definitely trans and that puberty blockers would be the right path for me. And immediately is the first...

It was about three months between coming out as trans and then being seen by Dr. Olson. And Dr. Olson recommended puberty blockers immediately, but it took a few months for her to convince my parents to agree to it. Okay. What do you mean by immediately? She immediately asserted that I was definitely trans and that puberty blockers would be the right path for me. And immediately is the first...

Yeah, after the first time we had spoken for about 30 minutes. And that's 30 to 60 minutes? Yes.

Yeah, after the first time we had spoken for about 30 minutes. And that's 30 to 60 minutes? Yes.

My parents had definitely noticed that around puberty, I got very reserved and shy and was acting sort of different. And they definitely noticed the signs of depression. It wasn't really severe, but they noticed that it was happening. And Around that first meeting, Olson asserted that I would be at very high risk for suicide. Okay.

My parents had definitely noticed that around puberty, I got very reserved and shy and was acting sort of different. And they definitely noticed the signs of depression. It wasn't really severe, but they noticed that it was happening. And Around that first meeting, Olson asserted that I would be at very high risk for suicide. Okay.

And that immediately got them terrified for what would happen to me.

And that immediately got them terrified for what would happen to me.

Sure, yeah. I mean, my guidance counselor had— been the one to have this phone call with them, so I don't actually know... With the parents.

Sure, yeah. I mean, my guidance counselor had— been the one to have this phone call with them, so I don't actually know... With the parents.

Right. I was already cleared for surgery, so I traveled to San Francisco. Recommendation of Olson, the specific doctor.

Right. I was already cleared for surgery, so I traveled to San Francisco. Recommendation of Olson, the specific doctor.

She also asserted that that was basically the only treatment available.

She also asserted that that was basically the only treatment available.

My parents were very reluctant originally, and they were constantly like, I don't believe this. You have never expressed this before. And Olson would have conversations with me or conversations with them where I wasn't there or conversations with me separately. And then she'd talk to my parents.

My parents were very reluctant originally, and they were constantly like, I don't believe this. You have never expressed this before. And Olson would have conversations with me or conversations with them where I wasn't there or conversations with me separately. And then she'd talk to my parents.

I don't know exactly what was said, but I know it was just asserting the same rhetoric that I was at very high risk for suicide, that my depression was going to get worse if they didn't act on this now. And it was also... There was a lot of social pressure put on me because Olson kept bringing up keeping up with male peers and keeping up with people in my class. Time is of the essence.

I don't know exactly what was said, but I know it was just asserting the same rhetoric that I was at very high risk for suicide, that my depression was going to get worse if they didn't act on this now. And it was also... There was a lot of social pressure put on me because Olson kept bringing up keeping up with male peers and keeping up with people in my class. Time is of the essence.

Right, as if there was some need to act as quick as possible.

Right, as if there was some need to act as quick as possible.

That was something that was probably expressed to my parents every time my parents spoke to her.

That was something that was probably expressed to my parents every time my parents spoke to her.

Yeah. I mean, we didn't really fight too much. It was just they were very distressed about it. And they didn't. They didn't want to agree, but they also felt kind of backed into a corner and they sort of felt a bit... The purpose of that threat is to back them into a corner.

Yeah. I mean, we didn't really fight too much. It was just they were very distressed about it. And they didn't. They didn't want to agree, but they also felt kind of backed into a corner and they sort of felt a bit... The purpose of that threat is to back them into a corner.

She's sort of just reaffirming all my beliefs. And every problem I had was attributed to the fact that I was somehow inherently born in the wrong body and that I was intrinsically male and I should have been born in a different body. And that's why I feel so anxious. And that's why I hate school. And that's why I can't focus. And all my problems were attributed to my gender dysphoria. Yeah. Yeah.

She's sort of just reaffirming all my beliefs. And every problem I had was attributed to the fact that I was somehow inherently born in the wrong body and that I was intrinsically male and I should have been born in a different body. And that's why I feel so anxious. And that's why I hate school. And that's why I can't focus. And all my problems were attributed to my gender dysphoria. Yeah. Yeah.

Right. In my mind, I'm thinking, oh, great, this is treatable. I found the problem. I found what's wrong with me.

Right. In my mind, I'm thinking, oh, great, this is treatable. I found the problem. I found what's wrong with me.

I don't think I actually doubted much. I mean, I, in my mind, truly believed that this might be the answer. Hoped or believed? I think I hoped, and I was waiting to see if it would resolve, and it didn't eventually. But I was also kind of naively trusting them and assuming that this was right, especially because people around me... Yeah, it's hard to tell how much of that's naive.

I don't think I actually doubted much. I mean, I, in my mind, truly believed that this might be the answer. Hoped or believed? I think I hoped, and I was waiting to see if it would resolve, and it didn't eventually. But I was also kind of naively trusting them and assuming that this was right, especially because people around me... Yeah, it's hard to tell how much of that's naive.

I knew that it had happened, and I was very aware of what happened, but I didn't think it was also something that needed to be addressed until probably around 16. And you said you figured that out because these other things didn't work? Because I was still, I had gone through the surgery. I had been on testosterone. I was fitting in much better as a teenage boy than I had been as a teenage girl.

I knew that it had happened, and I was very aware of what happened, but I didn't think it was also something that needed to be addressed until probably around 16. And you said you figured that out because these other things didn't work? Because I was still, I had gone through the surgery. I had been on testosterone. I was fitting in much better as a teenage boy than I had been as a teenage girl.

And everything was worse. I was so much worse off and I was so much more suicidal.

And everything was worse. I was so much worse off and I was so much more suicidal.

I didn't. I think I sort of just knew once I was looking at my life and looking at the way that I was acting and I couldn't function properly, to put it bluntly, I figured there was something still going on that I hadn't heard.

I didn't. I think I sort of just knew once I was looking at my life and looking at the way that I was acting and I couldn't function properly, to put it bluntly, I figured there was something still going on that I hadn't heard.

The puberty blockers made me kind of lightheaded all the time. So it also sort of put a little more pressure on me to start testosterone because I was sort of feeling the effects of having no estrogen or testosterone in my system. And I was getting hot flashes and just feeling kind of lightheaded. But otherwise, it just stopped any breast development, which was causing me...

The puberty blockers made me kind of lightheaded all the time. So it also sort of put a little more pressure on me to start testosterone because I was sort of feeling the effects of having no estrogen or testosterone in my system. And I was getting hot flashes and just feeling kind of lightheaded. But otherwise, it just stopped any breast development, which was causing me...

distress at the time, but it also sort of deformed the breast development that I did have. So in a way, it sort of relieved my discomfort with my breast, but it also made it a lot worse because then the tissue was somewhat deformed.

distress at the time, but it also sort of deformed the breast development that I did have. So in a way, it sort of relieved my discomfort with my breast, but it also made it a lot worse because then the tissue was somewhat deformed.

I think it was around when I started testosterone and I started noticing my voice dropping and noticing that people were starting to just respect me a little bit more now that I looked more physiologically male. Once that happened and I was sort of fitting in socially as male, but then I was looking at my body and just seeing the disconnect.

I think it was around when I started testosterone and I started noticing my voice dropping and noticing that people were starting to just respect me a little bit more now that I looked more physiologically male. Once that happened and I was sort of fitting in socially as male, but then I was looking at my body and just seeing the disconnect.

And then because of the puberty blockers, the deformities of my breast tissue was causing me so much discomfort. So it was really that sort of immediately after I started testosterone at 13. So you're trapped between fish and fowl at that point.

And then because of the puberty blockers, the deformities of my breast tissue was causing me so much discomfort. So it was really that sort of immediately after I started testosterone at 13. So you're trapped between fish and fowl at that point.

Because he doesn't have age limits. No age limits. Yeah. What's interesting about my case too is even in my referral notes, which the surgeon saw, there's conflicting information. So immediately you can tell it's sort of rubber stamped and they didn't really look through it.

Because he doesn't have age limits. No age limits. Yeah. What's interesting about my case too is even in my referral notes, which the surgeon saw, there's conflicting information. So immediately you can tell it's sort of rubber stamped and they didn't really look through it.

Well, the two people who wrote my referral letters were Olson and Landon. So I hardly had any extra psychological evaluation because they just... wrote the letters because they'd already been seeing me and they didn't really ask me much additional questions. And then when I went in for surgery, I had already had everything scheduled. I was already cleared for surgery.

Well, the two people who wrote my referral letters were Olson and Landon. So I hardly had any extra psychological evaluation because they just... wrote the letters because they'd already been seeing me and they didn't really ask me much additional questions. And then when I went in for surgery, I had already had everything scheduled. I was already cleared for surgery.

So I traveled to San Francisco just because it was recommendation of Olson, the specific doctor. And by the time I was there.

So I traveled to San Francisco just because it was recommendation of Olson, the specific doctor. And by the time I was there.

Because he doesn't have age limits or BMI requirements. No age limits.

Because he doesn't have age limits or BMI requirements. No age limits.

Yes.

Yes.

Right. Which I wish I had been delayed because at 14, I was really, really impulsive and not thinking things through. You know what that's called? Being 14.

Right. Which I wish I had been delayed because at 14, I was really, really impulsive and not thinking things through. You know what that's called? Being 14.

Yeah. So, I mean, by the time I had... was being evaluated for surgery. It was already the next day. It was already scheduled. They were drawing markings on me. And they just sort of briefly went over what the procedure was. It was just called top surgery, not phomosectomy. I didn't know even what breast tissue looked like. Why bring that up?

Yeah. So, I mean, by the time I had... was being evaluated for surgery. It was already the next day. It was already scheduled. They were drawing markings on me. And they just sort of briefly went over what the procedure was. It was just called top surgery, not phomosectomy. I didn't know even what breast tissue looked like. Why bring that up?

I think it's important to realize how desensitizing they make everything. I don't think I realized the actual damage I did to my body until much, much later on. I mean, calling it top surgery doesn't even really acknowledge that there are specific glands there that are organs.

I think it's important to realize how desensitizing they make everything. I don't think I realized the actual damage I did to my body until much, much later on. I mean, calling it top surgery doesn't even really acknowledge that there are specific glands there that are organs.

What's interesting about my case too is even in my referral notes, which the surgeon saw, there's conflicting information. One of them says I had held a male identity since puberty and the other one said I'd had a strong male identity since early childhood.

What's interesting about my case too is even in my referral notes, which the surgeon saw, there's conflicting information. One of them says I had held a male identity since puberty and the other one said I'd had a strong male identity since early childhood.

So immediately, like you can tell it's sort of rubber stamped and they didn't really look through it because if they look through it, they'd see that glare and contradiction. And you have those records.

So immediately, like you can tell it's sort of rubber stamped and they didn't really look through it because if they look through it, they'd see that glare and contradiction. And you have those records.

What's that like? I felt like I'd been hit by a car. Like I didn't even, going into surgery, I was not nervous. I was totally calm. I had zero feelings about what was even going to happen. And I wasn't even shaking. What do you mean zero feelings? I was so numb at that point and I think I just didn't really, I was so dissociated as well. What do you mean dissociated? I wasn't living in my body.

What's that like? I felt like I'd been hit by a car. Like I didn't even, going into surgery, I was not nervous. I was totally calm. I had zero feelings about what was even going to happen. And I wasn't even shaking. What do you mean zero feelings? I was so numb at that point and I think I just didn't really, I was so dissociated as well. What do you mean dissociated? I wasn't living in my body.

I wasn't thinking of myself as part of my body. I was totally disconnected from my physical being and I think my identity. Do you know what derealization is? Yes. Yeah. How come? How come you know that? I've heard about it from a psychologist I've spoken to.

I wasn't thinking of myself as part of my body. I was totally disconnected from my physical being and I think my identity. Do you know what derealization is? Yes. Yeah. How come? How come you know that? I've heard about it from a psychologist I've spoken to.

Essentially, yeah. And it was pretty glaringly obvious in my opinion. I was smiling and bubbly. I had no nerves. I had no questions, nothing to ask. And when I woke up, obviously, all of that was gone. I was just in tremendous pain and very out of it physically. Okay, what's been the consequence of the surgery?

Essentially, yeah. And it was pretty glaringly obvious in my opinion. I was smiling and bubbly. I had no nerves. I had no questions, nothing to ask. And when I woke up, obviously, all of that was gone. I was just in tremendous pain and very out of it physically. Okay, what's been the consequence of the surgery?

Well, I didn't have breasts and I have a lot of chest pain related to hormonal cycles from the tissue that was left over, which is pretty painful to this day.

Well, I didn't have breasts and I have a lot of chest pain related to hormonal cycles from the tissue that was left over, which is pretty painful to this day.

And it wasn't something I even realized until I fully stopped testosterone because once I stopped testosterone and my hormonal cycle was able to somewhat regulate, then I started having really intense chest pain related to my hormonal cycles.

And it wasn't something I even realized until I fully stopped testosterone because once I stopped testosterone and my hormonal cycle was able to somewhat regulate, then I started having really intense chest pain related to my hormonal cycles.

re-undergo female puberty what happened um i wasn't sure what would have happened if i stopped so i had talked about it with doctors and they were like we don't know but i sort of progressed a little bit through female puberty but mostly no changes just sort of slight redistribution of fat and things like that do you know what your reproductive status is i don't know

re-undergo female puberty what happened um i wasn't sure what would have happened if i stopped so i had talked about it with doctors and they were like we don't know but i sort of progressed a little bit through female puberty but mostly no changes just sort of slight redistribution of fat and things like that do you know what your reproductive status is i don't know

It was always brushed over by people. It was always something like, oh, well, how could you worry about that when this child is suicidal? It's what they would sort of, how they would deal with it with my parents, who would always bring up, well, what about future fertility? They'd be like, well, that's not important when we're dealing with something so great. So the crisis justifies.

It was always brushed over by people. It was always something like, oh, well, how could you worry about that when this child is suicidal? It's what they would sort of, how they would deal with it with my parents, who would always bring up, well, what about future fertility? They'd be like, well, that's not important when we're dealing with something so great. So the crisis justifies.

That was also something that wasn't really brought up as a concern. And then later on, I had to go on topical estrogen as well. And that was also something that wasn't really brought up as a potential thing that I would need to do in the future. Why did you have to go on topical estrogen?

That was also something that wasn't really brought up as a concern. And then later on, I had to go on topical estrogen as well. And that was also something that wasn't really brought up as a potential thing that I would need to do in the future. Why did you have to go on topical estrogen?

At the time, I truly believed that I would become male and that this would somehow fix all my problems, which is so... not accurate to what was actually happening. So I say I understood basically nothing of what was actually going on and what was actually chemically happening to my body. I didn't really understand hormonal cycles and how much that plays into emotions.

At the time, I truly believed that I would become male and that this would somehow fix all my problems, which is so... not accurate to what was actually happening. So I say I understood basically nothing of what was actually going on and what was actually chemically happening to my body. I didn't really understand hormonal cycles and how much that plays into emotions.

It was something that was always sort of like, well, you can fix that. Like, I was thinking about bottom surgery when I was a teenager. It was brought up to me by therapists, and I had been thinking about it. and researching it. And, you know, by the time I was 16, 17, and I was breaking down in ways that were unrelated to my gender, I started getting help.

It was something that was always sort of like, well, you can fix that. Like, I was thinking about bottom surgery when I was a teenager. It was brought up to me by therapists, and I had been thinking about it. and researching it. And, you know, by the time I was 16, 17, and I was breaking down in ways that were unrelated to my gender, I started getting help.

And my gender dysphoria was just gone after that. I just felt no desire to keep doing it or no reason to continue presenting as male after I had sort of gone through therapy about the sexual abuse.

And my gender dysphoria was just gone after that. I just felt no desire to keep doing it or no reason to continue presenting as male after I had sort of gone through therapy about the sexual abuse.

After top surgery, not really. I mean, the problem of I have breasts was gone, but also at the end of that, I was also thinking, well, I didn't really... need to do that because they were already somewhat deformed anyways. And I still don't like the way that I look and I still feel uncomfortable. So that didn't really resolve. But at the time, I was sort of done transitioning.

After top surgery, not really. I mean, the problem of I have breasts was gone, but also at the end of that, I was also thinking, well, I didn't really... need to do that because they were already somewhat deformed anyways. And I still don't like the way that I look and I still feel uncomfortable. So that didn't really resolve. But at the time, I was sort of done transitioning.

So I was in this place of like, I don't really know where to go next. And things are just getting worse. And it just kept getting worse. Okay.

So I was in this place of like, I don't really know where to go next. And things are just getting worse. And it just kept getting worse. Okay.

Well, I had sort of started opening up and realizing I needed to deal with a lot of the sexual trauma that I had. Opening up to who? I had talked a little bit to my parents about it and sort of just came to terms with it in my own head. Okay, so you revealed some of it to them? Yes. How did they react? Vaguely.

Well, I had sort of started opening up and realizing I needed to deal with a lot of the sexual trauma that I had. Opening up to who? I had talked a little bit to my parents about it and sort of just came to terms with it in my own head. Okay, so you revealed some of it to them? Yes. How did they react? Vaguely.

I revealed some of it, and they were very, very concerned and very distressed, and I think... They immediately sort of questioned why I was in gender therapy. They immediately wanted to put me in treatment for sexual assault only.

I revealed some of it, and they were very, very concerned and very distressed, and I think... They immediately sort of questioned why I was in gender therapy. They immediately wanted to put me in treatment for sexual assault only.

Because the therapy that I was doing was so surface level and wasn't actually addressing any issues in my mind. It was just creating more issues. Why did you come to that conclusion? Because they kept affirming that I was somehow intrinsically male and that would solve all my problems. And then once I... match the outward appearance of a male and I didn't feel better, they had no answers for me.

Because the therapy that I was doing was so surface level and wasn't actually addressing any issues in my mind. It was just creating more issues. Why did you come to that conclusion? Because they kept affirming that I was somehow intrinsically male and that would solve all my problems. And then once I... match the outward appearance of a male and I didn't feel better, they had no answers for me.

That therapist barely spoke about my gender. We didn't even discuss it. We've talked about it maybe once. We went over it and I said, yeah, I've been trans identified. And then we just sort of only really dealt with my childhood trauma, my sexual assault.

That therapist barely spoke about my gender. We didn't even discuss it. We've talked about it maybe once. We went over it and I said, yeah, I've been trans identified. And then we just sort of only really dealt with my childhood trauma, my sexual assault.

We went through dialectical behavioral therapy, and then I also did something called imaginal exposure therapy, which sort of helped me remember a lot of the gaps that I didn't... actually have filled in and then once we did that we just did a lot of general talk therapy.

We went through dialectical behavioral therapy, and then I also did something called imaginal exposure therapy, which sort of helped me remember a lot of the gaps that I didn't... actually have filled in and then once we did that we just did a lot of general talk therapy.

The number one thing that I think was helpful that we talked about is how that experience from childhood made me think about what it meant to be female and what external factors. And what did you conclude? I concluded that I had been attributing a lot of self-hatred to femaleness

The number one thing that I think was helpful that we talked about is how that experience from childhood made me think about what it meant to be female and what external factors. And what did you conclude? I concluded that I had been attributing a lot of self-hatred to femaleness

I had been putting a lot of my own experiences onto femaleness as a whole, and I had been taking that out of myself for a very long time.

I had been putting a lot of my own experiences onto femaleness as a whole, and I had been taking that out of myself for a very long time.

My name's Clementine. I'm a 22-year-old college student. I don't really consider myself a super political person. I just... Seeing news about topics like this and other detransitioners come out and tell their stories, I just felt like I had to say something considering the details of my particular story. I felt like I couldn't just watch this unfold and not participate in the conversation.

My name's Clementine. I'm a 22-year-old college student. I don't really consider myself a super political person. I just... Seeing news about topics like this and other detransitioners come out and tell their stories, I just felt like I had to say something considering the details of my particular story. I felt like I couldn't just watch this unfold and not participate in the conversation.

Any medication associated with that? I was on medication when I was 15. I started being put on antipsychotics and antidepressants.

Any medication associated with that? I was on medication when I was 15. I started being put on antipsychotics and antidepressants.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, I went off the psych meds around the time I was going to therapy with a second therapist. And then I stopped testosterone after that.

No, I went off the psych meds around the time I was going to therapy with a second therapist. And then I stopped testosterone after that.

Why? I think the main factor was definitely the testosterone because... Okay, so that quelled the psychosis symptoms.

Why? I think the main factor was definitely the testosterone because... Okay, so that quelled the psychosis symptoms.

I think it was because I was actually going through therapy that was actually talking about my issues and not just... Right, so you think you got to the cause, the actual cause.

I think it was because I was actually going through therapy that was actually talking about my issues and not just... Right, so you think you got to the cause, the actual cause.

I started really focusing on what I wanted my life to look like on my terms and not just how I could fit into other things and started trying to focus on more goal-oriented things rather than letting my mental problems be the main focus of my life.

I started really focusing on what I wanted my life to look like on my terms and not just how I could fit into other things and started trying to focus on more goal-oriented things rather than letting my mental problems be the main focus of my life.

Yeah, we just sort of talked about things I like and things I'm really passionate about beyond gender, beyond my mental health issues and what I really love doing. And that gave me sort of a focus and purpose. I mean, I love theater, I love literature, and that gave me a lot of drive to go to school as well.

Yeah, we just sort of talked about things I like and things I'm really passionate about beyond gender, beyond my mental health issues and what I really love doing. And that gave me sort of a focus and purpose. I mean, I love theater, I love literature, and that gave me a lot of drive to go to school as well.

I mean, that sort of came second in a way because we were going through this whole therapy process and not really talking about... my gender at all. And then sort of after I was done with therapy, I'm in college, I'm much better off.

I mean, that sort of came second in a way because we were going through this whole therapy process and not really talking about... my gender at all. And then sort of after I was done with therapy, I'm in college, I'm much better off.

And that's when I came to the decision I wanted to transition because I had built a life around me that had nothing to do with my gender and I had reconciled with my own problems. And that's sort of when I came to the conclusion that there was no reason to keep presenting as male.

And that's when I came to the decision I wanted to transition because I had built a life around me that had nothing to do with my gender and I had reconciled with my own problems. And that's sort of when I came to the conclusion that there was no reason to keep presenting as male.

So how did you do that? It was really, really difficult. And once I sort of started to think about it and think about, do I really want to do this? skipping injections and missing testosterone doses and just everything around me sort of came crashing down and I just started feeling this tremendous grief about what I had just done. It was really jarring.

So how did you do that? It was really, really difficult. And once I sort of started to think about it and think about, do I really want to do this? skipping injections and missing testosterone doses and just everything around me sort of came crashing down and I just started feeling this tremendous grief about what I had just done. It was really jarring.

So I really just want to spread awareness about the reality of child transition and what actually happens to people after they decide to detransition.

So I really just want to spread awareness about the reality of child transition and what actually happens to people after they decide to detransition.

No.

No.

Right. I I started to think about things other than myself and thinking about school and what I wanted for my future, which led me to the conversation in my own head of, do I want kids one day? Which also helped with that realization. Okay, so what did you realize? I wanted kids and I could not picture myself as someone's father. And I really tried to picture it. Oh, okay, that's interesting.

Right. I I started to think about things other than myself and thinking about school and what I wanted for my future, which led me to the conversation in my own head of, do I want kids one day? Which also helped with that realization. Okay, so what did you realize? I wanted kids and I could not picture myself as someone's father. And I really tried to picture it. Oh, okay, that's interesting.

No, I just couldn't picture it in my mind really. Right, but then you started becoming able to do that. Yeah, once I was older and actually in college and thinking about my future in a way that was more tangible, it started to hit me.

No, I just couldn't picture it in my mind really. Right, but then you started becoming able to do that. Yeah, once I was older and actually in college and thinking about my future in a way that was more tangible, it started to hit me.

The lawsuit specifically is because Olson Kennedy, and she said this in countless interviews and talked about this very openly, she doesn't believe in gatekeeping. And she's very open about how she doesn't think it's possible that... mental health comorbidities could ever affect someone's gender identity.

The lawsuit specifically is because Olson Kennedy, and she said this in countless interviews and talked about this very openly, she doesn't believe in gatekeeping. And she's very open about how she doesn't think it's possible that... mental health comorbidities could ever affect someone's gender identity.

And I just want to say that that is so wrong and that's directly hurt and ruined, in my eyes, my life. And I think that that approach to healthcare is so dangerous. And it's not just dangerous, it's malpractice, at least in cases like mine. And I think the reason for talking about it so publicly is I also just want to spread awareness that this does happen.

And I just want to say that that is so wrong and that's directly hurt and ruined, in my eyes, my life. And I think that that approach to healthcare is so dangerous. And it's not just dangerous, it's malpractice, at least in cases like mine. And I think the reason for talking about it so publicly is I also just want to spread awareness that this does happen.

People like to act like this never happens or no children transition, but That's not true.

People like to act like this never happens or no children transition, but That's not true.

Yeah, I've spoken to some detransitioners, mostly like online or just phone calls. And that's been really nice to hear that other people have also gone through this. Even though I'm sad that they've also gone through this, it's nice that I'm not alone. The lawsuit came out, I believe, December 6th, but I had spoken to Billboard Chris a bit before that, pretty publicly.

Yeah, I've spoken to some detransitioners, mostly like online or just phone calls. And that's been really nice to hear that other people have also gone through this. Even though I'm sad that they've also gone through this, it's nice that I'm not alone. The lawsuit came out, I believe, December 6th, but I had spoken to Billboard Chris a bit before that, pretty publicly.

It's quite the effective troublemaker. Yeah, so that got a lot of attention, and I just sort of outlined my entire story in that short little street interview. Yeah, how did you meet him? It was totally coincidental. I was walking home on UCLA campus, and I just saw him. Oh, so you just bumped into him. Yeah.

It's quite the effective troublemaker. Yeah, so that got a lot of attention, and I just sort of outlined my entire story in that short little street interview. Yeah, how did you meet him? It was totally coincidental. I was walking home on UCLA campus, and I just saw him. Oh, so you just bumped into him. Yeah.

Billboard Chris is awesome, and he just stands around with a billboard and has conversations with people about puberty blockers. And I just totally ran into him, and we had a nice conversation. Now, he's a Canadian.

Billboard Chris is awesome, and he just stands around with a billboard and has conversations with people about puberty blockers. And I just totally ran into him, and we had a nice conversation. Now, he's a Canadian.

Well, I'd seen his stuff online before, and I'd seen him be harassed and had coffee thrown at him, and I just wanted to tell him, like... As somebody directly impacted by puberty blockers, I really appreciated what he was doing. And then he just asked about my story and we sort of had a conversation about it.

Well, I'd seen his stuff online before, and I'd seen him be harassed and had coffee thrown at him, and I just wanted to tell him, like... As somebody directly impacted by puberty blockers, I really appreciated what he was doing. And then he just asked about my story and we sort of had a conversation about it.

And it got a lot more attention than I was expecting because I had had that conversation weeks before the lawsuit was supposed to come out. So I wasn't really supposed to be talking too much. So I tried to keep it vague when talking to him, but it got a lot of attention and it was nice to see that other people were so sympathetic to my story. Why do you think it got attention?

And it got a lot more attention than I was expecting because I had had that conversation weeks before the lawsuit was supposed to come out. So I wasn't really supposed to be talking too much. So I tried to keep it vague when talking to him, but it got a lot of attention and it was nice to see that other people were so sympathetic to my story. Why do you think it got attention?

I said Olson Kennedy's name, and that was right after that information had come out about her hiding the study. And it was also, I think, just because of my age at the time that these things happened, it was definitely jarring to hear.

I said Olson Kennedy's name, and that was right after that information had come out about her hiding the study. And it was also, I think, just because of my age at the time that these things happened, it was definitely jarring to hear.

I'm mounting that mostly, but I'm working with some awesome law firms and I'm working with Campbell Miller Payne and all they do is detransition lawsuits. They work with Prisha Mosley as well and other clients who are also detransitioners. So that's... kind of all they do. So they were able to help me out a lot. And it's mostly me mounting it. I mean, my parents are supportive.

I'm mounting that mostly, but I'm working with some awesome law firms and I'm working with Campbell Miller Payne and all they do is detransition lawsuits. They work with Prisha Mosley as well and other clients who are also detransitioners. So that's... kind of all they do. So they were able to help me out a lot. And it's mostly me mounting it. I mean, my parents are supportive.

They just don't really want to be public about it, which I totally understand. Right, right. And where are you with the lawsuit? We just started. It was filed in December. So things are... Oh, okay.

They just don't really want to be public about it, which I totally understand. Right, right. And where are you with the lawsuit? We just started. It was filed in December. So things are... Oh, okay.

I mean, vaguely malpractice and just asking for damages. And I've gone through breast reconstruction surgery and had to pay out of pocket for that. And all the medical costs associated with future things like fertility or my other medical problems related to hormonal things. I would just like some compensation for those costs.

I mean, vaguely malpractice and just asking for damages. And I've gone through breast reconstruction surgery and had to pay out of pocket for that. And all the medical costs associated with future things like fertility or my other medical problems related to hormonal things. I would just like some compensation for those costs.

I am hoping for change. I don't want to demand anything. I'm not a lawmaker or a doctor, so I can't make any broad assertions, but I definitely think the standard of care where it's at right now is pretty abysmal.

I am hoping for change. I don't want to demand anything. I'm not a lawmaker or a doctor, so I can't make any broad assertions, but I definitely think the standard of care where it's at right now is pretty abysmal.

I would like to see people working on helping people rather than pushing as many things as quickly as possible and getting people to agree to as many things quickly as possible, because that's definitely what seems to be the trend, not actually helping kids and investigating what's going on with these kids. It's more the fight to prescribe them as many things as possible.

I would like to see people working on helping people rather than pushing as many things as quickly as possible and getting people to agree to as many things quickly as possible, because that's definitely what seems to be the trend, not actually helping kids and investigating what's going on with these kids. It's more the fight to prescribe them as many things as possible.

Exactly.

Exactly.

That's crazy.

That's crazy.

It's been a little difficult, I won't lie. I've definitely been noticed a bit more times than I'd like. Noticed how? People have asked me about things and brought up very sort of... A lot of the information that I'm talking about publicly is very, very personal and not something I really just want to like talk about in everyday conversation. So having people like very...

It's been a little difficult, I won't lie. I've definitely been noticed a bit more times than I'd like. Noticed how? People have asked me about things and brought up very sort of... A lot of the information that I'm talking about publicly is very, very personal and not something I really just want to like talk about in everyday conversation. So having people like very...

Also my therapist, Susan Landon, as well.

Also my therapist, Susan Landon, as well.

kind of hostily confront me and tell me that I'm a bad person for talking about my experiences or things like that. How often does that happen? Thankfully, infrequently, but it's happened a couple times.

kind of hostily confront me and tell me that I'm a bad person for talking about my experiences or things like that. How often does that happen? Thankfully, infrequently, but it's happened a couple times.

I think so. So far, most people close to me have been awesome and really supportive, and most people that know me are nice. Right. So you have a social support network.

I think so. So far, most people close to me have been awesome and really supportive, and most people that know me are nice. Right. So you have a social support network.

I started to contextualize it and truly understand it as abuse and something that I shouldn't just avoid, which is how I had seen it for a very long time. And once I started to reconcile with that, I was actually able to confront the reality of what that does.

I started to contextualize it and truly understand it as abuse and something that I shouldn't just avoid, which is how I had seen it for a very long time. And once I started to reconcile with that, I was actually able to confront the reality of what that does.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Most of it. And I was also able to sort of understand, obviously I can never understand why exactly, but you also mentioned like with another kid, there's also something happening on that end. And I was able to fully sort of understand that it wasn't something I did and there's nothing wrong with me.

Most of it. And I was also able to sort of understand, obviously I can never understand why exactly, but you also mentioned like with another kid, there's also something happening on that end. And I was able to fully sort of understand that it wasn't something I did and there's nothing wrong with me.

I believe she's just a family and general therapist, but she works specifically with trans youth. Okay, okay.

I believe she's just a family and general therapist, but she works specifically with trans youth. Okay, okay.

Right. It's probably something awful as well.

Right. It's probably something awful as well.

Yeah, I mean, to me, once I started sort of thinking about what had happened to me, and I started thinking about why I was doing the things that I was doing. Why was I really trying to hide my chest? Why was I trying to conceal my sex?

Yeah, I mean, to me, once I started sort of thinking about what had happened to me, and I started thinking about why I was doing the things that I was doing. Why was I really trying to hide my chest? Why was I trying to conceal my sex?

And it was really just because I was suffering from really, really concealed PTSD that I had just thought wasn't happening, but I was just in constant fear, essentially. Right, right.

And it was really just because I was suffering from really, really concealed PTSD that I had just thought wasn't happening, but I was just in constant fear, essentially. Right, right.

Yeah, I mean, I think once I was able to notice it, I was able to think about other ways to sort of calm that instead of just letting it rule my life. And that's what I was doing by living as a different sex.

Yeah, I mean, I think once I was able to notice it, I was able to think about other ways to sort of calm that instead of just letting it rule my life. And that's what I was doing by living as a different sex.

Yeah. I started thinking about wanting to have kids and how much satisfaction that would bring me. And it made me really sad that I might have taken that opportunity away from myself at such a young age.

Yeah. I started thinking about wanting to have kids and how much satisfaction that would bring me. And it made me really sad that I might have taken that opportunity away from myself at such a young age.

I'm female and I'm happy to be female. I don't really try and think about

I'm female and I'm happy to be female. I don't really try and think about

my identity because i think spending so long attributing everything in my life to something wrong with my identity or my physical being was what was driving a lot of my unhealthy behaviors okay all right well i think i think is there anything else that you want to bring up that we haven't covered is there anything you want to tell the audience let's say before we bring this to a close

my identity because i think spending so long attributing everything in my life to something wrong with my identity or my physical being was what was driving a lot of my unhealthy behaviors okay all right well i think i think is there anything else that you want to bring up that we haven't covered is there anything you want to tell the audience let's say before we bring this to a close

Not specifically. Nothing beyond the fact that I don't really have a political agenda. I'm not doing this for—I've already been accused of doing this for attention, and that's the last of my wants. I just want to spread awareness about this, and I can't sit by and let people say that this doesn't happen when this is something that has truly, like, ruptured my life.

Not specifically. Nothing beyond the fact that I don't really have a political agenda. I'm not doing this for—I've already been accused of doing this for attention, and that's the last of my wants. I just want to spread awareness about this, and I can't sit by and let people say that this doesn't happen when this is something that has truly, like, ruptured my life.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I would say that there is nothing physically wrong with you. And anything that you think is physically wrong with you is because something external is making you feel like there's something wrong with you. That there is nothing you need to fix about your body. You're fine. You're perfect just the way you are. Anything that's making you feel differently is totally external.

I would say that there is nothing physically wrong with you. And anything that you think is physically wrong with you is because something external is making you feel like there's something wrong with you. That there is nothing you need to fix about your body. You're fine. You're perfect just the way you are. Anything that's making you feel differently is totally external.

Right.

Right.

Right. Exactly.

Right. Exactly.

Right. I mean, I'm not a psychologist, so I obviously can't put myself in their shoes. But in my opinion, I don't think it would have taken much because I had had a lot of strange ideas about what it meant to be female or what it meant to be male or sexuality or things like that. And it had even been pointed out by my peers that my knowledge of sexuality was a bit inappropriate.

Right. I mean, I'm not a psychologist, so I obviously can't put myself in their shoes. But in my opinion, I don't think it would have taken much because I had had a lot of strange ideas about what it meant to be female or what it meant to be male or sexuality or things like that. And it had even been pointed out by my peers that my knowledge of sexuality was a bit inappropriate.

And I think if they had just... poked a little bit about some of the experiences that I had had or my opinions or just even asked if I had had any inappropriate experiences with other kids, I think I would have been able to say something. Okay.

And I think if they had just... poked a little bit about some of the experiences that I had had or my opinions or just even asked if I had had any inappropriate experiences with other kids, I think I would have been able to say something. Okay.

When I was 12 years old, I had a puberty blocker implant placed in my left arm. And when I was 13 years old, I was put on testosterone, which I continued until about earlier this year. But the last couple years of being on testosterone, I was kind of on and off. And then when I was about 14 years old, I had a double mastectomy.

When I was 12 years old, I had a puberty blocker implant placed in my left arm. And when I was 13 years old, I was put on testosterone, which I continued until about earlier this year. But the last couple years of being on testosterone, I was kind of on and off. And then when I was about 14 years old, I had a double mastectomy.

Yes. So just to give enough context, when I was about six years old, I was sexually abused. And that was something I had never even dealt with or talked about until much, much later on. So by the time that I was approaching puberty, around 11 years old, I think I started going through puberty, I started just feeling terrible, terrible anxiety about my body and about the idea of becoming a woman.

Yes. So just to give enough context, when I was about six years old, I was sexually abused. And that was something I had never even dealt with or talked about until much, much later on. So by the time that I was approaching puberty, around 11 years old, I think I started going through puberty, I started just feeling terrible, terrible anxiety about my body and about the idea of becoming a woman.

And I felt really, really isolated from my female peers because I had... really a different perspective on puberty and what it meant to be a woman because of what happened to me when I was really young.

And I felt really, really isolated from my female peers because I had... really a different perspective on puberty and what it meant to be a woman because of what happened to me when I was really young.

Yeah, so I was sexually abused by an older classmate. He was about four years older than me and it went on for about a year. So it was pretty intense. And I just, in my brain, I just sort of, processed it as something I didn't need to think about. So I never really dealt with that until later. Okay.

Yeah, so I was sexually abused by an older classmate. He was about four years older than me and it went on for about a year. So it was pretty intense. And I just, in my brain, I just sort of, processed it as something I didn't need to think about. So I never really dealt with that until later. Okay.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Yeah. So just to put it bluntly, I was raped multiple times. So when I was coming to 11, 12, and I started learning about sex ed and figuring out what sex was, I sort of started to unpack what had happened to me. And that was fully sort of when I was able to understand what actually happened.

Yeah. So just to put it bluntly, I was raped multiple times. So when I was coming to 11, 12, and I started learning about sex ed and figuring out what sex was, I sort of started to unpack what had happened to me. And that was fully sort of when I was able to understand what actually happened.

Did you tell them about the abuse? I did not. Well, how much investigation into your history took place? Very little, because the second we got into my history, it just came crumbling down. In my referral, it says that I had held a male identity since childhood. Besides just physical discomfort with my body and just feeling disconnected from girls, it was really no sign of prior gender dysphoria.

We had very brief discussions about my childhood, and I expressed that I'd always felt sort of uncomfortable with girls, and that I had mostly male friends. And I talked about my discomfort with the idea of growing and to be a grown woman.

That was sort of the very surface-level conversations we had, and I was diagnosed with gender dysphoria on our first meeting, but I had only been— Diagnosed by who? Olson Kennedy.

It was around 30 minutes to an hour. It was pretty short. And she spoke with my parents as well. But by the time I was diagnosed, I had only been living as trans for about three months. But the diagnostic criteria is actually six months.

We had multiple clinical discussions. I don't actually know how many times I saw her. All the talk about gender was never beyond social setting. It was never about how I was feeling. It was more about how I wanted to be perceived.

Right, I believe it was pretty shortly after, maybe a month or so, I started seeing Landon because she had referred me to her. And we had sort of similar discussions, and she kept affirming the idea that I was somehow inherently male, and that was the root of my discomfort. Okay.

It was very, very surface level. And it was all about what I wanted in the future, which for me at the time was very difficult to figure out. And obviously, I just kind of my dream was I wanted to just be totally dissociated from my body, which is not really a healthy mindset at all. But I didn't really, I wasn't 100% certain if I was like...

truly male if that was the truth but they kept affirming that my discomfort with my body was related to the fact that i was supposed to be born male and that because i fit in better with males at school or things like that that that was somehow also evidence yeah okay first of all that's not evidence right i mean some boys

I had spoken to my guidance counselor about my feelings about my body, and I had suggested that I might be transgender to her, but I had also said that I might be lesbian or bisexual or things like that. We just had a lot of very open-ended conversations. But at a certain point, she sort of latched on to the idea that I might be transgender.

And after that meeting, she called my parents and told them, and they're the ones who took me to Olson Kennedy. However, pretty shortly after that conversation with my parents, it was actually my guidance counselor who told my entire school that I was a boy and that they were to only use male pronouns for me and that all the teachers had to call me by a different name.

And at the time, it kind of... Felt nice in a way that I didn't have to really do any of it myself, but it also really removed any accountability on my end because I had really no actual control over the decision, and I didn't have to have those conversations face-to-face with my parents or my peers as well. So it was taken out of your hands.

No, and I also, when I was living as trans at that point, before I had gone through with any medicalization, I had just cut my hair short and was wearing baggy clothes, which I was also doing because my body was changing. Yeah. Right, right, right. But people, and what were people calling you at that point?

At the moment, yeah. Was it only a relief? No, it was definitely mixed emotions because also... I was a bit overwhelmed at the same time because everything happened so fast. I mean, it was just like three months at that time.

Yeah, at school I was... I wouldn't call myself popular, but I had friends and people liked me. I was fairly well liked. I was definitely, as I hit puberty, I was getting more awkward and definitely more reserved and shy. Going through puberty definitely triggered something in me that was kind of...

noticeable from other people around me right and when i originally came out as transgender i lost a ton of friends sort of immediately but after a year or so i started getting way more popular than i had ever been while living as female and why i think it was because of

the sort of initial confidence boost that I had, but also I definitely felt more comfortable asserting myself in ways that are traditionally masculine that I was sort of reserved from before. Definitely just because I was insecure and shy, I don't think... that my trans identity benefited me in any way. But I did notice that people started to respect me more.

I started taking testosterone at 13.

Pretty quickly, my voice started to deepen a bit and I started to grow facial hair. My stature changed. I got a bit more confident and I was very restless and angry all the time. As my dose increased, I started having very, very negative side effects that eventually sort of diverged into full-blown psychosis. But at the time that I was 13, that wasn't happening yet.

Okay, how? I think once I started to physically conform to the male identity, it was easier for people to see me that way, which also definitely made me feel better in a short-term sense, but it didn't actually resolve any of the mental problems I was experiencing.

Yeah, I started to discuss that around 17 with a different therapist.

It was a while, yeah. Why the lag, and then why did you decide to delve into it? Well, I had sort of assumed that my transition would fix all of those issues because that's sort of what I was told, is that my body issues would resolve and that once I started fitting in better at school, I'd feel less shy. And...

That did sort of happen, but I also got more reckless and more depressed and more anxious and I could hardly sleep and things like that were just happening. And it got so bad by the time I was 17, I could hardly focus in school. I was up all night, every single night. My insomnia had become psychosis. What were those symptoms? I was having full-blown hallucinations. Auditory or visual?

Visual and auditory. Mostly auditory. It was like hearing voices and whispers and shouting from the other room.

It was a lot of, this is all in my therapist notes, but it was a lot of stuff about hurting other people and specifically men, which was something I had actually talked to Landon about. And she attributed to my trans identity. Do you have an alternative attribution? I think that it was because of the sexual abuse that I experienced.

Certain things would be if I had positive relationships with people, I would always be told to hurt those people or say certain things. In class, it would always be like, you have to get out of here. You have to run or like things like that. Lots of like whisperings that would overlap at times. But it was always trying to get me to do things that were very impulsive.

And sometimes I would do those things and I would act very impulsively or out of control or really high risk behaviors I was doing.

Yeah, around 16, 17.

I went through DBT therapy and that sort of quieted most of my psychosis. However, I was still having some of it until... DBT being? Dialectical behavioral therapy. And after completing that, I was still having some of those symptoms. But once I was fully detoxed off the testosterone, I stopped having hallucinations.

I would say it was definitely both, but I would say the cessation of the testosterone stopped the psychosis.

Okay.

discuss what had happened with your parents? I think the main reason was because I was assaulted by somebody who was also a child at the time. They were much older, but they were still a child at the time. So I think in my head, I sort of had the narrative of like, if an adult hurts you, tell another adult. But I wasn't really considering that a child's

actions could be that inappropriate where I'd have to tell somebody. But then by the time I had sort of realized what had happened, I was so ashamed and I felt like there was no way out of it or no way to tell anybody. So I just figured I could resolve it in other ways, like transitioning.

Yeah.

It still kind of eludes me in how I talk about it. Like, I just sort of got desensitized to talking about it at a certain point, which weirdly helped. But the first time, I could barely even get the words out. Were you guilty about it? I felt very guilty. Why? And especially after all of the transition and all of the things that I had done to just avoid dealing with this.

There was a lot of shame in finally coming out and saying the reason. Why were you guilty, do you think?

took place? Very little because the second we got into my history, I mean, it just came crumbling down. Like even in my surgical note for my double mastectomy, in my referral, it says that I had held a male identity since childhood, which is just not true. I was a super girly child. I did... choir, in theater, I would play dress-up, I collected dolls. I just had no sign of this until puberty.

Besides just physical discomfort with my body and just feeling disconnected from girls, there was really no sign of prior gender dysphoria.

No, they almost, it seemed like they didn't really want to talk about my childhood or as if my childhood was totally irrelevant to what was happening now. And it was just something that I hadn't seen before or my parents hadn't seen before because there really were no signs when I was a child.

How were you dressing? I was just wearing baggy clothes. It wasn't really dressing like a boy. It was just big shirts and big pants. Okay, okay, right.

Why? I think a lot of people were sort of uncomfortable with what was happening. And I also had people at the time point out how out of character this was or how like I had never behaved typically masculine before or I hadn't really expressed interest in masculine things and things like that. People brought it up to me and were very aware of how out of character it was.

Yeah.

Yeah. Or for example, I was crying all the time before the testosterone and then after I stopped crying and I just wouldn't have these fits of crying. And in my mind, I was like, oh, that means it's working. I'm getting better.

It was about three months between coming out as trans and then being seen by Dr. Olson. And Dr. Olson recommended puberty blockers immediately, but it took a few months for her to convince my parents to agree to it. Okay. What do you mean by immediately? She immediately asserted that I was definitely trans and that puberty blockers would be the right path for me. And immediately is the first...

Yeah, after the first time we had spoken for about 30 minutes. And that's 30 to 60 minutes? Yes.

My parents had definitely noticed that around puberty, I got very reserved and shy and was acting sort of different. And they definitely noticed the signs of depression. It wasn't really severe, but they noticed that it was happening. And Around that first meeting, Olson asserted that I would be at very high risk for suicide. Okay.

And that immediately got them terrified for what would happen to me.

Sure, yeah. I mean, my guidance counselor had— been the one to have this phone call with them, so I don't actually know... With the parents.

Right. I was already cleared for surgery, so I traveled to San Francisco. Recommendation of Olson, the specific doctor.

She also asserted that that was basically the only treatment available.

My parents were very reluctant originally, and they were constantly like, I don't believe this. You have never expressed this before. And Olson would have conversations with me or conversations with them where I wasn't there or conversations with me separately. And then she'd talk to my parents.

I don't know exactly what was said, but I know it was just asserting the same rhetoric that I was at very high risk for suicide, that my depression was going to get worse if they didn't act on this now. And it was also... There was a lot of social pressure put on me because Olson kept bringing up keeping up with male peers and keeping up with people in my class. Time is of the essence.

Right, as if there was some need to act as quick as possible.

That was something that was probably expressed to my parents every time my parents spoke to her.

Yeah. I mean, we didn't really fight too much. It was just they were very distressed about it. And they didn't. They didn't want to agree, but they also felt kind of backed into a corner and they sort of felt a bit... The purpose of that threat is to back them into a corner.

She's sort of just reaffirming all my beliefs. And every problem I had was attributed to the fact that I was somehow inherently born in the wrong body and that I was intrinsically male and I should have been born in a different body. And that's why I feel so anxious. And that's why I hate school. And that's why I can't focus. And all my problems were attributed to my gender dysphoria. Yeah. Yeah.

Right. In my mind, I'm thinking, oh, great, this is treatable. I found the problem. I found what's wrong with me.

I don't think I actually doubted much. I mean, I, in my mind, truly believed that this might be the answer. Hoped or believed? I think I hoped, and I was waiting to see if it would resolve, and it didn't eventually. But I was also kind of naively trusting them and assuming that this was right, especially because people around me... Yeah, it's hard to tell how much of that's naive.

I knew that it had happened, and I was very aware of what happened, but I didn't think it was also something that needed to be addressed until probably around 16. And you said you figured that out because these other things didn't work? Because I was still, I had gone through the surgery. I had been on testosterone. I was fitting in much better as a teenage boy than I had been as a teenage girl.

And everything was worse. I was so much worse off and I was so much more suicidal.

I didn't. I think I sort of just knew once I was looking at my life and looking at the way that I was acting and I couldn't function properly, to put it bluntly, I figured there was something still going on that I hadn't heard.

The puberty blockers made me kind of lightheaded all the time. So it also sort of put a little more pressure on me to start testosterone because I was sort of feeling the effects of having no estrogen or testosterone in my system. And I was getting hot flashes and just feeling kind of lightheaded. But otherwise, it just stopped any breast development, which was causing me...

distress at the time, but it also sort of deformed the breast development that I did have. So in a way, it sort of relieved my discomfort with my breast, but it also made it a lot worse because then the tissue was somewhat deformed.

I think it was around when I started testosterone and I started noticing my voice dropping and noticing that people were starting to just respect me a little bit more now that I looked more physiologically male. Once that happened and I was sort of fitting in socially as male, but then I was looking at my body and just seeing the disconnect.

And then because of the puberty blockers, the deformities of my breast tissue was causing me so much discomfort. So it was really that sort of immediately after I started testosterone at 13. So you're trapped between fish and fowl at that point.

Because he doesn't have age limits. No age limits. Yeah. What's interesting about my case too is even in my referral notes, which the surgeon saw, there's conflicting information. So immediately you can tell it's sort of rubber stamped and they didn't really look through it.

Well, the two people who wrote my referral letters were Olson and Landon. So I hardly had any extra psychological evaluation because they just... wrote the letters because they'd already been seeing me and they didn't really ask me much additional questions. And then when I went in for surgery, I had already had everything scheduled. I was already cleared for surgery.

So I traveled to San Francisco just because it was recommendation of Olson, the specific doctor. And by the time I was there.

Because he doesn't have age limits or BMI requirements. No age limits.

Yes.

Right. Which I wish I had been delayed because at 14, I was really, really impulsive and not thinking things through. You know what that's called? Being 14.

Yeah. So, I mean, by the time I had... was being evaluated for surgery. It was already the next day. It was already scheduled. They were drawing markings on me. And they just sort of briefly went over what the procedure was. It was just called top surgery, not phomosectomy. I didn't know even what breast tissue looked like. Why bring that up?

I think it's important to realize how desensitizing they make everything. I don't think I realized the actual damage I did to my body until much, much later on. I mean, calling it top surgery doesn't even really acknowledge that there are specific glands there that are organs.

What's interesting about my case too is even in my referral notes, which the surgeon saw, there's conflicting information. One of them says I had held a male identity since puberty and the other one said I'd had a strong male identity since early childhood.

So immediately, like you can tell it's sort of rubber stamped and they didn't really look through it because if they look through it, they'd see that glare and contradiction. And you have those records.

What's that like? I felt like I'd been hit by a car. Like I didn't even, going into surgery, I was not nervous. I was totally calm. I had zero feelings about what was even going to happen. And I wasn't even shaking. What do you mean zero feelings? I was so numb at that point and I think I just didn't really, I was so dissociated as well. What do you mean dissociated? I wasn't living in my body.

I wasn't thinking of myself as part of my body. I was totally disconnected from my physical being and I think my identity. Do you know what derealization is? Yes. Yeah. How come? How come you know that? I've heard about it from a psychologist I've spoken to.

Essentially, yeah. And it was pretty glaringly obvious in my opinion. I was smiling and bubbly. I had no nerves. I had no questions, nothing to ask. And when I woke up, obviously, all of that was gone. I was just in tremendous pain and very out of it physically. Okay, what's been the consequence of the surgery?

Well, I didn't have breasts and I have a lot of chest pain related to hormonal cycles from the tissue that was left over, which is pretty painful to this day.

And it wasn't something I even realized until I fully stopped testosterone because once I stopped testosterone and my hormonal cycle was able to somewhat regulate, then I started having really intense chest pain related to my hormonal cycles.

re-undergo female puberty what happened um i wasn't sure what would have happened if i stopped so i had talked about it with doctors and they were like we don't know but i sort of progressed a little bit through female puberty but mostly no changes just sort of slight redistribution of fat and things like that do you know what your reproductive status is i don't know

It was always brushed over by people. It was always something like, oh, well, how could you worry about that when this child is suicidal? It's what they would sort of, how they would deal with it with my parents, who would always bring up, well, what about future fertility? They'd be like, well, that's not important when we're dealing with something so great. So the crisis justifies.

That was also something that wasn't really brought up as a concern. And then later on, I had to go on topical estrogen as well. And that was also something that wasn't really brought up as a potential thing that I would need to do in the future. Why did you have to go on topical estrogen?

At the time, I truly believed that I would become male and that this would somehow fix all my problems, which is so... not accurate to what was actually happening. So I say I understood basically nothing of what was actually going on and what was actually chemically happening to my body. I didn't really understand hormonal cycles and how much that plays into emotions.

It was something that was always sort of like, well, you can fix that. Like, I was thinking about bottom surgery when I was a teenager. It was brought up to me by therapists, and I had been thinking about it. and researching it. And, you know, by the time I was 16, 17, and I was breaking down in ways that were unrelated to my gender, I started getting help.

And my gender dysphoria was just gone after that. I just felt no desire to keep doing it or no reason to continue presenting as male after I had sort of gone through therapy about the sexual abuse.

After top surgery, not really. I mean, the problem of I have breasts was gone, but also at the end of that, I was also thinking, well, I didn't really... need to do that because they were already somewhat deformed anyways. And I still don't like the way that I look and I still feel uncomfortable. So that didn't really resolve. But at the time, I was sort of done transitioning.

So I was in this place of like, I don't really know where to go next. And things are just getting worse. And it just kept getting worse. Okay.

Well, I had sort of started opening up and realizing I needed to deal with a lot of the sexual trauma that I had. Opening up to who? I had talked a little bit to my parents about it and sort of just came to terms with it in my own head. Okay, so you revealed some of it to them? Yes. How did they react? Vaguely.

I revealed some of it, and they were very, very concerned and very distressed, and I think... They immediately sort of questioned why I was in gender therapy. They immediately wanted to put me in treatment for sexual assault only.

Because the therapy that I was doing was so surface level and wasn't actually addressing any issues in my mind. It was just creating more issues. Why did you come to that conclusion? Because they kept affirming that I was somehow intrinsically male and that would solve all my problems. And then once I... match the outward appearance of a male and I didn't feel better, they had no answers for me.

That therapist barely spoke about my gender. We didn't even discuss it. We've talked about it maybe once. We went over it and I said, yeah, I've been trans identified. And then we just sort of only really dealt with my childhood trauma, my sexual assault.

We went through dialectical behavioral therapy, and then I also did something called imaginal exposure therapy, which sort of helped me remember a lot of the gaps that I didn't... actually have filled in and then once we did that we just did a lot of general talk therapy.

The number one thing that I think was helpful that we talked about is how that experience from childhood made me think about what it meant to be female and what external factors. And what did you conclude? I concluded that I had been attributing a lot of self-hatred to femaleness

I had been putting a lot of my own experiences onto femaleness as a whole, and I had been taking that out of myself for a very long time.

My name's Clementine. I'm a 22-year-old college student. I don't really consider myself a super political person. I just... Seeing news about topics like this and other detransitioners come out and tell their stories, I just felt like I had to say something considering the details of my particular story. I felt like I couldn't just watch this unfold and not participate in the conversation.

Any medication associated with that? I was on medication when I was 15. I started being put on antipsychotics and antidepressants.

Yeah.

No, I went off the psych meds around the time I was going to therapy with a second therapist. And then I stopped testosterone after that.

Why? I think the main factor was definitely the testosterone because... Okay, so that quelled the psychosis symptoms.

I think it was because I was actually going through therapy that was actually talking about my issues and not just... Right, so you think you got to the cause, the actual cause.

I started really focusing on what I wanted my life to look like on my terms and not just how I could fit into other things and started trying to focus on more goal-oriented things rather than letting my mental problems be the main focus of my life.

Yeah, we just sort of talked about things I like and things I'm really passionate about beyond gender, beyond my mental health issues and what I really love doing. And that gave me sort of a focus and purpose. I mean, I love theater, I love literature, and that gave me a lot of drive to go to school as well.

I mean, that sort of came second in a way because we were going through this whole therapy process and not really talking about... my gender at all. And then sort of after I was done with therapy, I'm in college, I'm much better off.

And that's when I came to the decision I wanted to transition because I had built a life around me that had nothing to do with my gender and I had reconciled with my own problems. And that's sort of when I came to the conclusion that there was no reason to keep presenting as male.

So how did you do that? It was really, really difficult. And once I sort of started to think about it and think about, do I really want to do this? skipping injections and missing testosterone doses and just everything around me sort of came crashing down and I just started feeling this tremendous grief about what I had just done. It was really jarring.

So I really just want to spread awareness about the reality of child transition and what actually happens to people after they decide to detransition.

No.

Right. I I started to think about things other than myself and thinking about school and what I wanted for my future, which led me to the conversation in my own head of, do I want kids one day? Which also helped with that realization. Okay, so what did you realize? I wanted kids and I could not picture myself as someone's father. And I really tried to picture it. Oh, okay, that's interesting.

No, I just couldn't picture it in my mind really. Right, but then you started becoming able to do that. Yeah, once I was older and actually in college and thinking about my future in a way that was more tangible, it started to hit me.

The lawsuit specifically is because Olson Kennedy, and she said this in countless interviews and talked about this very openly, she doesn't believe in gatekeeping. And she's very open about how she doesn't think it's possible that... mental health comorbidities could ever affect someone's gender identity.

And I just want to say that that is so wrong and that's directly hurt and ruined, in my eyes, my life. And I think that that approach to healthcare is so dangerous. And it's not just dangerous, it's malpractice, at least in cases like mine. And I think the reason for talking about it so publicly is I also just want to spread awareness that this does happen.

People like to act like this never happens or no children transition, but That's not true.

Yeah, I've spoken to some detransitioners, mostly like online or just phone calls. And that's been really nice to hear that other people have also gone through this. Even though I'm sad that they've also gone through this, it's nice that I'm not alone. The lawsuit came out, I believe, December 6th, but I had spoken to Billboard Chris a bit before that, pretty publicly.

It's quite the effective troublemaker. Yeah, so that got a lot of attention, and I just sort of outlined my entire story in that short little street interview. Yeah, how did you meet him? It was totally coincidental. I was walking home on UCLA campus, and I just saw him. Oh, so you just bumped into him. Yeah.

Billboard Chris is awesome, and he just stands around with a billboard and has conversations with people about puberty blockers. And I just totally ran into him, and we had a nice conversation. Now, he's a Canadian.

Well, I'd seen his stuff online before, and I'd seen him be harassed and had coffee thrown at him, and I just wanted to tell him, like... As somebody directly impacted by puberty blockers, I really appreciated what he was doing. And then he just asked about my story and we sort of had a conversation about it.

And it got a lot more attention than I was expecting because I had had that conversation weeks before the lawsuit was supposed to come out. So I wasn't really supposed to be talking too much. So I tried to keep it vague when talking to him, but it got a lot of attention and it was nice to see that other people were so sympathetic to my story. Why do you think it got attention?

I said Olson Kennedy's name, and that was right after that information had come out about her hiding the study. And it was also, I think, just because of my age at the time that these things happened, it was definitely jarring to hear.

I'm mounting that mostly, but I'm working with some awesome law firms and I'm working with Campbell Miller Payne and all they do is detransition lawsuits. They work with Prisha Mosley as well and other clients who are also detransitioners. So that's... kind of all they do. So they were able to help me out a lot. And it's mostly me mounting it. I mean, my parents are supportive.

They just don't really want to be public about it, which I totally understand. Right, right. And where are you with the lawsuit? We just started. It was filed in December. So things are... Oh, okay.

I mean, vaguely malpractice and just asking for damages. And I've gone through breast reconstruction surgery and had to pay out of pocket for that. And all the medical costs associated with future things like fertility or my other medical problems related to hormonal things. I would just like some compensation for those costs.

I am hoping for change. I don't want to demand anything. I'm not a lawmaker or a doctor, so I can't make any broad assertions, but I definitely think the standard of care where it's at right now is pretty abysmal.

I would like to see people working on helping people rather than pushing as many things as quickly as possible and getting people to agree to as many things quickly as possible, because that's definitely what seems to be the trend, not actually helping kids and investigating what's going on with these kids. It's more the fight to prescribe them as many things as possible.

Exactly.

That's crazy.

It's been a little difficult, I won't lie. I've definitely been noticed a bit more times than I'd like. Noticed how? People have asked me about things and brought up very sort of... A lot of the information that I'm talking about publicly is very, very personal and not something I really just want to like talk about in everyday conversation. So having people like very...

Also my therapist, Susan Landon, as well.

kind of hostily confront me and tell me that I'm a bad person for talking about my experiences or things like that. How often does that happen? Thankfully, infrequently, but it's happened a couple times.

I think so. So far, most people close to me have been awesome and really supportive, and most people that know me are nice. Right. So you have a social support network.

I started to contextualize it and truly understand it as abuse and something that I shouldn't just avoid, which is how I had seen it for a very long time. And once I started to reconcile with that, I was actually able to confront the reality of what that does.

Yeah.

Most of it. And I was also able to sort of understand, obviously I can never understand why exactly, but you also mentioned like with another kid, there's also something happening on that end. And I was able to fully sort of understand that it wasn't something I did and there's nothing wrong with me.

I believe she's just a family and general therapist, but she works specifically with trans youth. Okay, okay.

Right. It's probably something awful as well.

Yeah, I mean, to me, once I started sort of thinking about what had happened to me, and I started thinking about why I was doing the things that I was doing. Why was I really trying to hide my chest? Why was I trying to conceal my sex?

And it was really just because I was suffering from really, really concealed PTSD that I had just thought wasn't happening, but I was just in constant fear, essentially. Right, right.

Yeah, I mean, I think once I was able to notice it, I was able to think about other ways to sort of calm that instead of just letting it rule my life. And that's what I was doing by living as a different sex.

Yeah. I started thinking about wanting to have kids and how much satisfaction that would bring me. And it made me really sad that I might have taken that opportunity away from myself at such a young age.

I'm female and I'm happy to be female. I don't really try and think about

my identity because i think spending so long attributing everything in my life to something wrong with my identity or my physical being was what was driving a lot of my unhealthy behaviors okay all right well i think i think is there anything else that you want to bring up that we haven't covered is there anything you want to tell the audience let's say before we bring this to a close

Not specifically. Nothing beyond the fact that I don't really have a political agenda. I'm not doing this for—I've already been accused of doing this for attention, and that's the last of my wants. I just want to spread awareness about this, and I can't sit by and let people say that this doesn't happen when this is something that has truly, like, ruptured my life.

Yeah.

I would say that there is nothing physically wrong with you. And anything that you think is physically wrong with you is because something external is making you feel like there's something wrong with you. That there is nothing you need to fix about your body. You're fine. You're perfect just the way you are. Anything that's making you feel differently is totally external.

Right.

Right. Exactly.

Right. I mean, I'm not a psychologist, so I obviously can't put myself in their shoes. But in my opinion, I don't think it would have taken much because I had had a lot of strange ideas about what it meant to be female or what it meant to be male or sexuality or things like that. And it had even been pointed out by my peers that my knowledge of sexuality was a bit inappropriate.

And I think if they had just... poked a little bit about some of the experiences that I had had or my opinions or just even asked if I had had any inappropriate experiences with other kids, I think I would have been able to say something. Okay.

When I was 12 years old, I had a puberty blocker implant placed in my left arm. And when I was 13 years old, I was put on testosterone, which I continued until about earlier this year. But the last couple years of being on testosterone, I was kind of on and off. And then when I was about 14 years old, I had a double mastectomy.

Yes. So just to give enough context, when I was about six years old, I was sexually abused. And that was something I had never even dealt with or talked about until much, much later on. So by the time that I was approaching puberty, around 11 years old, I think I started going through puberty, I started just feeling terrible, terrible anxiety about my body and about the idea of becoming a woman.

And I felt really, really isolated from my female peers because I had... really a different perspective on puberty and what it meant to be a woman because of what happened to me when I was really young.

Yeah, so I was sexually abused by an older classmate. He was about four years older than me and it went on for about a year. So it was pretty intense. And I just, in my brain, I just sort of, processed it as something I didn't need to think about. So I never really dealt with that until later. Okay.

Exactly.

Yeah. So just to put it bluntly, I was raped multiple times. So when I was coming to 11, 12, and I started learning about sex ed and figuring out what sex was, I sort of started to unpack what had happened to me. And that was fully sort of when I was able to understand what actually happened.