Coco Kahn

Elsewhere, she has announced investments in new transport links in the north of England. They're talking about creating Europe's Silicon Valley in between Oxford and Cambridge. It's aimed at driving new investments in science and technology. They also want to go hard on building new homes, particularly around those travel hubs. And they say that they will curb regulator overreach.

You sound fun.

I do want to come back to that question, though. What was it about them that you found alluring?

In this video, you talked about like Joe Rogan and Shapiro. The one British one that stood out was Tommy Robinson.

Yeah. And I was really interested in your thoughts when you said, I had a connection to Tommy Robinson, but I wasn't a racist because my understanding of racism. Would you talk about that?

Reeves's justification for the removal of CMA chairman Marcus Bockering was that they didn't see eye to eye on how the UK can achieve growth. That's the magic word. So she's appointed Amazon's former UK boss, Doug Gurr, as interim chair. And we all know how concerned, that's the right word, isn't it, Amazon has been in regards to healthy competition.

It really is. But it's not surprising. And I'm not just saying that to continue my mission to make people think I'm younger than I am.

Can I ask you just particularly about young men and why young men, not young women, are being targeted by the right? You know, look, I'm a woman. I'm a millennial. I grew up in a Muslim family. So I know that I'm not the target audience. I don't think any of their messaging is going to work on me. Why do you think it has captured so many young men?

All of those videos are wrong. If you are listening to this, please do not take advice from the Manosphere about how to speak to women.

Don't call it a Brentree. I mean, really, don't. It's a terrible word, isn't it? Don't. It's an awful poor mantra. And the G word, growth, is on everyone's lips in Westminster. So Starmer told business leaders at a Bloomberg event on Tuesday that what Rachel and I have done is to make it clear to our cabinet colleagues. that in each of their briefs, growth is the number one mission.

I'm glad you said that because I feel my left wing politics are entirely based on optimism. It's entirely based on this feeling of like, my fellow man is inherently good and with the right conditions can be the best. We're all going to be the best. I feel like I'm sort of like some motivational coach. We've all got it in us, guys. That's why the right do all that.

Yeah, absolutely. And exactly as you said, even just in terms of numbers, there's more of us than there are of them. We are going to win this battle at some point. You know what I mean?

Hi, this is Pod Save the UK. I'm Coco Kahn.

So it's not just a mission for the Chancellor, a mission for me or for trade and education, but every single group has to go through the question, is this pro-growth? Did you ever used to watch The Day Today? Yeah. There's like a really famous segment in that where Steve Coogan, playing a kind of early Alan Partridge character, is doing a skit about driving fast and causing accidents.

The years felt good because everyone was on drugs. Yeah, probably.

We know what the 80s was like.

He's like, I just feel good, please. I'm buzzing, I'm buzzing.

Let's be honest.

I remember watching a different video of yours where you talked about, and I'm going to quote you because you said it yourself. You were like, it just felt like the left were pussies. And I find that really interesting because Obviously, I have a different life. And, you know, when I was growing up, I wasn't surrounded by loads of political people.

But the few that I were, obviously, I'm a woman of colour. And so the few that I were, it was often like anti-racism activism. And the guys in that didn't strike you as like, oh, they weren't fucking about. They didn't strike you as weak or... Yeah, a lot of it is propaganda.

And he says this thing over and over again, is this cool? So he sets it up and he says... I'm driving 100 miles an hour. I feel great because I'm cool. But is this cool? Then shows a picture of someone who's been bloodied in an accident. Next picture. Is this cool? And this is how I feel I want to speak to Keir Starmer. I just want to show him a picture. Is this growth? Is this growth?

bring people more together there's more solidarity in that I do understand why feminists and anti-racist activists have previously felt a little bit sort of squashed under just only only class matters I get it you know particularly if you look at trade unions they've always been until recently has been quite bad in representing women for example because there's a sense of like just be quiet you lot and then eventually when we sort the class issue you will naturally become liberated and I'm sure you would

An air pollution mask around the airport. Is this growth? A high street just dead of any culture. Is this growth?

And I think maybe it comes back to that idea of solidarity and maybe, you know, solidarity is a muscle that we all need to train a little bit harder because I think sometimes when we talk about the left, we talk about a need for likeable characters. But what is a content creator other than someone who's very compelling? That's why you watch them on YouTube, right? Yeah.

If you don't have personality, does it matter? And also, should we withdraw solidarity from people that we think are kind of dickheads? Do you know what I mean? If you want to have a coalition, there are going to be people in there that you don't actually like.

I have no idea. What is Catan? Settlers of Catan.

What is it?

Okay. Please carry on.

Right.

Yeah, sort of.

I mean, the right do it all the time. I mean, that's why they won.

Yeah, bow.

And that's it. Thanks for listening to Pod Save the UK. And as always, we want to hear your thoughts. What do you make of the government's newest plans for growth? Email us at psuk at reducelistening.co.uk.

Pod Save the UK is a reduced listening production for Crooked Media.

Our theme music is by Vasilis Fotopoulos.

The executive producers are Anishka Sharma, Louise Cotton and Madeleine Herringer with additional support from Ari Schwartz and Katie Long.

Yeah, no, exactly. And, you know, we watched all of Reeves' speech before this show. The two things that stood out to me is that she talked about how actually Labour had delivered on growth. you know, not as much as they expected, but there had been some growth. I thought to myself, well, that is definitely not felt by the general public.

Actually, you can keep talking about growth, but I'd really love to hear how that would be redistributed, because I think that's the main question. And when she also kept talking about Europe, Silicon Valley, all I keep thinking about is deep seek and how just overnight it's like turned the tech world upside down. I just thought maybe Silicon Valley isn't the model we should be going for.

And the government is sending out the bulldozers in pursuit of its growth agenda. But what's at risk? Let's hear from the Chancellor.

She kept returning to this line, like, we want to make Britain the best place for an entrepreneur. And all I kept thinking was, I mean, it's a pretty good place for entrepreneurs as it is, but I'd love to hear, we want to make Britain the best place to be a child, the best place to be a nurse. You know, those are the things I want to hear, but I'm not convinced it was a speech for us.

A fine OK place.

Make Britain OK, I guess, again.

So as our guest on the show last week, Greens co-leader Carla Denya said, airport expansion doesn't necessarily improve the lives of your everyday Brit, and it certainly will not lead to positive environmental outcomes. The government is already struggling to justify the decision, actually. So here's Business Secretary Jonathan Reynolds speaking to BBC Radio 4's Emma Barnett.

There's also been opposition from Labour's biggest donor. So that's green energy magnate Dale Vince. He tweeted that if we don't get on top of the climate crisis, the economic damage will drown out any gains from marginal projects like Heathrow. No amount of runways will save our economy.

Right. And I mean, even in her speech today, she talks about, she takes a swipe at bats and newts. What have they ever done to you? You know, and it's interesting because obviously if there was a long time where Labour were saying we are the true Green Party, it's just all being unraveled before our eyes.

Yeah, and we can't forget that only a couple of weekends ago, we had that massive storm that battered Northern Ireland and Scotland. You know, the climate catastrophe is here. I kind of want to have a picture of it so I can ask Keir Starmer, is this growth? You know what I mean? Is this growth?

That's right. 52% of the people polled agreed that the UK would be a better place if a strong leader was in charge who does not have to bother with Parliament and elections. And nearly half agreed the entire way our society is organised must be radically changed through revolution.

All of this suggests that Gen Z is lurching to the right and disengaging in democracy, with the Pied Pipers of alt-right influencers helping them along the way. So with that in mind, we wanted to talk to someone who was once in this very position, but dug, Shawshank style, his way out of the alt-right shit pipe. Welcome to Pod Save the UK, Jimmy the Giant.

No, no, that's Generation Beta. What a terrible name to give them. Do you know how many minutes it was going to be Generation Cuck? Like, what is this?

Oh, they're like 11, aren't they?

So St. Peter's just started this year. Right. Oh, right, fine. Yeah, right.

Or like the Ninja Cat or the Otters Holding Hands.

The authenticity thing is something that we've been talking about on this podcast a lot. And actually, you're now one of the few voices in Parliament that's willing to actually call Donald Trump out to actually authentically say, no, mate, this is not really on. So on Monday, we heard that the US voted alongside Russia, Belarus and North Korea against the resolution in support of Ukraine.

You called it a wake up call to those cheerleading Trump in our country. So actually, my very first question, who are the cheerleaders? Go on, name and shame.

What are you thinking about Labour, though? Because they are they're walking something of a tightrope. They have to show diplomatic support for the new administration, but they also want to stand up for Ukraine. But they're also quite clearly afraid of pissing off Trump. Would you count that as effectively cheerleading it on?

But I mean, I think you hit the nail on the head that he's someone who is personality driven. He likes to work with people he likes. And so there is always a risk if you stand up to him and tell him some hard truths. Perhaps he'll respect it, but perhaps he wouldn't. I mean, this might be a problem that you face yourself.

So I noticed that Elon Musk recently called you, and we quote, a sniveling cretin. Congratulations on that, by the way. I think if Elon despises you, you're doing something right. Yeah. If you found yourself having to work with his administration, what would you do? Surely there'd be consequences to the outspokenness.

And he does seem to like Macron as well. So that doesn't seem to have backfired.

Let me talk to you about defence spending, though. So you've been saying that spending needs to go up. Today, the government announced plans to do just that, promising 2.5% of GDP. The big surprise, though, in Starmer's speech was how he intends to pay for this increase. So it's our international aid budgets. It's obviously attracted immediate criticism from organisations like Save the Children.

They've called it a betrayal of the world's most vulnerable children. What do you think of this?

Do you want to know what I've been up to? Of course I do. I've done the greatest accomplishment of all time. I changed an NHS medical appointment. Do you know how hard that is? Yeah, I do.

Do you think it's genuinely possible to put money into defence and not feel the pinch at home? Because, look, all the polling suggests that the reason people are losing faith in the government and politics in general is because of the cost of living.

And I think there will be some people in some parts of the country who, rightly or wrongly, will say, hang on a minute, why are we paying for a conflict that's really far away when in my neighbourhood there's so many children and so many things that need fixing? I mean, are these two things at odds?

I have to go into training every morning waking up like... Rocky music. Today, Coco, you are not going to let her hang up on you. You're going to phone at 8am. You're going to sit in that queue. You're going to press every option on the telephone menu until you get a human being. I'm very impressed.

Okay, well, putting aside the pinch that could be coming or shouldn't be coming, I feel like to say that you're anti-war, if you said that out loud, people would just scoff at you and laugh at you. This is ridiculous. What a terrible perspective to have. But there is just something here where an increase in defence means we're becoming a bit more militaristic, we're becoming a bit more war-ready.

And on a personal note, that does make me a little bit anxious. What does it mean to be anti-war in this day and age?

It is strange, though. I can feel myself sometimes when I'm talking about like, can't we all just get along? But I'm like, you know, trying to put flowers into machine guns or something, which seems all very passe. Nobody's doing that anymore. But it does feel like the global temperature is rising in terms of aggression, in terms of the prospect of war. I mean, how worried are you at the moment?

Okay, what about being more neutral?

I just felt I had to ask that for all the pacifists listening in.

So Starmer is meeting Trump on Thursday. If you were in his shoes, shaking his hand with an iron grip, what would you say to him?

Well, I mean, if you want a suggestion from me, I know he's a big fan of the royals and there's so much great royal goss out there. Affairs, so many affairs, secret children. You just need to get yourself on Reddit, Ed, and you'll find it.

Probably not the best idea.

The price of gold, by the way, is very high. I'm Asian. These are things that I know. Sir Ed Davey, thank you so much for joining us on Pod Save the UK.

Exactly. It's a stylish digital picture frame you upload directly from your phone. It's been named number one digital picture frame by Wirecutter and loads of other places for a really good reason. And I'll tell you why. It's easy. It's easy. Your parents can understand it. That's how easy it is.

It takes about two minutes to set up. Again, I've said it before, but I'll say it. It is really, really easy. And it's a really good gift. Every frame comes packaged in a premium gift box. You can add unlimited videos and limited photos. You can get people access to it so they can directly upload their photos, which I think it's kind of asking for trouble in certain friendship groups, isn't it?

Yeah, but come on, if you gave me access, I would put up trolley photos that would appear in your house when you least expect it. That's obviously what I do. But anyway, you have settings against that.

They look great as well, the photos. They look like real prints. They've meticulously calibrated these high-resolution displays. And unless you look really, really closely, you'd never know it's a screen.

Don't forget to mention that we sent you to show your support for the show. Terms and conditions apply. Okay, so before the break, we heard my conversation with Sir Ed Davey, which was really interesting, if a little brief. I definitely could have spoken to him for longer. What did you make of it?

Hi, this is Pod Save the UK. I'm Zoe Grunewald. And I'm Coco Kahn. This week, Keir Starmer is preparing to visit the White House, but with Trump clinging to Putin, can he persuade the US president to change his tune on Ukraine? I'll be speaking to the leader of the Liberal Democrats, Sir Ed Davey. And later, where is Kemi Badenock? No, seriously, have you seen anything from her?

No, absolutely. And I think I still come back to this point about like, there's no denying that what is taking place is atrocious. And any civilian across the world who dies in a conflict of its leaders, it's just a shame. It's awful. And so obviously, I know something has to be done. It's not that you can't do anything. But I still come back to this thing being like, is military the only way?

Are there other ways?

But like you say, I think he makes a very, very powerful argument. And yeah, I do still come back to this point about like, what does it mean to be anti-war in the modern age? Is this a concept that we should, as progressives, still fight for, to latch on for? What does it involve? I don't know if I have the answer for that, but it was definitely a fascinating conversation.

Now, as we record on Wednesday, Starmer will be heading to Washington tomorrow for his first visit to the White House for the biggest test yet, really, of Starmer's diplomatic and negotiating skills. So, Zoe, what's the meeting going to be about?

So look, the Liberal Democrats are setting themselves up to be a credible opposition, but the Tories, the official opposition, on the other hand... Just listen to this clip of Kemi Badenoch from Parliament on Tuesday.

full of charisma and championing the fully-costed welfare plan of the previous government, which in short order gave Starmer a fantastic moment of riposte, pointing out that their welfare plan had been laughed out of town by both the independent economics research organisation, the IFS, and the Institute for Government. So I think it's probably worth mentioning that I'm pretty sure that's the

only clip we've played in pods over the uk of kemi badenock since she became tory leader it's been a hundred days now and she is failing to cut through not even enough for us to make fun of her and we love doing that so zoe what's going on here it almost makes you miss liz trust because like at least she had like there was loads of golden material like there was lots to make fun of

I mean, and you're exactly right. It is just culture warring. That's all she's doing. So, you know, we tried to look into examples of where she's got the headlines recently. You know, this week she called for an end to the BBC licence fee due to a Gaza documentary that ended up being pulled. She's got a headline or two for saying, oh, you know, we should steamroll international law.

I think, you know, recently she chatted about sandwiches. She's been on Jordan Peterson's podcast. I know.

Oh, that is sad. I didn't know you were into self-harm.

It's all just like, you know, internet arguments and not even up-to-date ones. Do you know what I mean? We've moved on, Kemi. We're not talking about the National Trust anymore. We're talking about Luigi Mangione's loafers. Like, come on, get with it. And, you know, the anglerfish. You know about the anglerfish.

Wow. OK. And she's not even mentioned that. What are you doing? You're not online enough. But on a serious note, James Cleverley, he must be rubbing his hand together, right?

Have I seen anything from her? I haven't, which I'm kind of fine with. But I'm probably not the right audience because my entire X-Feed is just Rupert Lowe. Oh, no. Rupert Lowe and hardcore porn, I think. Weird combination.

Because we've spoken before about how it seems like Badenoch has just sort of seen Nigel Farage and said, I'm going to emulate that. Implicit in that is this idea that Farage is brilliant. But the latest YouGov poll shows that there's a bit of a decline in reforms numbers from 27 to 25 percent. You know, this like Trump-Farage balance.

or what unrequited love thing that's going on, you know, it could be starting to hurt him. I mean, what do you think about Nigel Farage's potency right now?

We should also mention the election result in Germany as well. So the Conservative CDU, led by Friedrich Metz, won the most seats and is likely to form the government taking 30% of the vote. But... The big winner in terms of voter gains was the far right, the AFD party led by Alice Weidel, which won the support of one in five German voters and nearly doubled its vote share.

This is the biggest result for a far right party since the Second World War. Are there lessons to be learned for us over in the UK, Zoe?

Yes, yes. So this seems like a good opportunity to think about Labour, actually, because, yes, of course, we've been talking a lot about Ukraine and Trump, but there has been a few positive stories for the government. So last week they met their commitment for bringing on 2 million more NHS appointments. We also heard about £270 million of culture funding too. But this news is not cutting through.

These kind of economic solutions that... you know, arguably could be a counter to far-right power. It's not making it. What's happening here?

Well, because Trump has been saying for a while that he wants NATO allies to spend more. And in effect, he got his wish. OK, it's not the amount that Trump wanted, but it's some move towards it. Do you think that will be enough to placate him?

Well, look, I think maybe Labour needs some help with their PR. They you know, one organisation they could be taking tips from, are the Climate Change Committee, who this week created, you know, I would say a relatable way of measuring our climate change impact, and it is kebabs. Kebabs. They've created a kebab measurement system. Yeah, so the Climate Change Committee has taken the humble kebab

and given it to us as an understandable metric for our meat consumption and has suggested that Brits need to drop their meat quota from eight to the equivalent of six. So we eat the equivalent, apparently, of eight doner kebabs and we need to go down to six.

You keep it in the bag. Yeah. You know, some keep hot sauce, not you, Yorkshire tea. Yeah. Anyway, though, I do actually genuinely think it's a really great way of drawing attention to this issue. British people love kebabs. Yeah. All of it was to draw attention to what the UK needs to do to meet its net zero commitments by 2050.

So by 2038 to 2042, the majority of homes will need to have ditched their gas boiler for a heat pump, switch to an electric car and, of course, eat a few less kebabs.

It sounds like the 2025 version of Parkland, doesn't it? Driving around in my electric car. Zoe Grinerard, thank you so much for joining us today. Come back soon. I will. Thank you so much. Have a productive week. Thank you. And I will be sure to send you an update of all five things I've achieved. Yes, or it will be considered a resignation. So that's it, everyone.

Thanks for listening to Pod Save the UK. Don't forget to follow at Pod Save the UK on Instagram, TikTok and Twitter. We're on blue sky now too, guys. So please follow us at podsavetheuk.crooked.com. And if you want to see more of us, make sure you subscribe to our YouTube channel. Pod Save the UK is a reduced listening production for Crooked Media.

Thanks to senior producer James Tindale and assistant producer Mae Robson with additional research from Isabella Anderson. Our theme music is by Vassilis Fotopoulos. Thanks to our engineer, Jeet Vasani. The executive producers are Anishka Sharma, Louise Cotton, Madeline Herringer and Katie Long with additional support from Ari Schwartz.

Do you think the fact they chose the foreign aid budget rather than domestic budgets was because they know that they would be extremely unpopular? I've got a little statistic here that says that, you know, a YouGov poll found that 50% of Britain support an increase in defence spending.

But when asked what was more important, defence spending or public services spending, just 30% said it is more important to increase spending on defence. Hmm.

You know, when you look at what the foreign aid budget goes towards, yes, of course, there's subjects and projects that are, I would say, a question of ethics and morality, particularly in terms of refugees and asylum seekers. But it is also a form of soft power. Interestingly, David Lammy, when Donald Trump announced his cuts, he called it a strategic mistake, which is kind of strange.

don't try it don't do this fake news to me this is not fair but anyway we'll also be asking why the official opposition is missing in action So Zoe, it's lovely to have you back filling in for Nish this week. He's on tour in the States and you're here with me.

It was only a couple of weeks ago that he said that. So It's a bit of an awkward situation for the foreign secretary. I mean, he argued at the time that it would allow China to fill the gap and extend its influence. I mean, that is surely still a concern.

No, definitely. And I do want to also just flag quickly that ActionAid, a charity that works with women and girls living in poverty, described Sir Keir's decision to slash the aid budget as reckless. And I think as two women, I think we should definitely shout that out. So now look, on to the meeting with Trump. Starmer will certainly be taking notes from the French president, Emmanuel Macron.

He struck the balance between flattery and gentle resistance. The meeting began with an absolute death grip handshake. Here's a clip from ABC News. Okay, so we're watching them meet. They're patting each other on the arm. And now we've got the handshake. Still shaking. We're still shaking. Oh, no, we're not letting go.

We're looking at the camera.

Do you think that hurts? Who will break first? Oh, was it Donald? Was it Emmanuel? It's so hard to tell.

Apparently that handshake, the showdown of the handshake, has a bit of a long history. Apparently it happens every single time. So I do wonder if they're in the back room, like, using the hand exercise machine. Like, oh, we will show you. Another little interesting tidbit is that Macron called Trump, Dear Donald, four times during the meeting. He slapped his knee. Cute.

And even in an absolute show of diplomatic prowess, Fat checked him on camera right within the Oval Office. Here's a clip from PBS News.

He didn't like that, did he? I think he did like it. I don't know. Maybe I misinterpret Donald Trump's expressions, but I feel like he's just sitting there thinking, France. Oh, look at me. I'm in France. I'm talking to France.

It really tells you about the power of the charm offensive, doesn't it? So the French president practically skipped out of this tête-à-tête with the US president, lavishing praise on his very special relationship with France. Zoe, Starmer, can you see it? Can he deliver this?

Well, before we get into the big news of the week, I need to tell you about this Elon Musk story. I hate talking about this man, obviously, but it's just a bit mad. So Musk is leading the US Department of Government Efficiency, or DOGE, and he issued hundreds of thousands of federal employees with an ultimatum. And it basically said to respond to an email with the subject line...

And what do you think Trump is going into this meeting thinking? What does he want from it?

I think it's also worth mentioning that, you know, lots been made about Macron and his approach, but, you know, he did struggle to pin Trump down. The one issue which he made headway on, an apparent acceptance of European peacekeeping forces inside Ukraine in the event of a ceasefire, was later called into question.

Trump has been deliberately vague, saying that he had asked Putin and Putin had not objected. Perhaps personal relations are not everything here. And I think that is just something for us to bear in mind particularly with these volatile leaders. So with Starmer in Washington and Ukraine still at the centre of global politics, there's no better time to Zoom out.

This week on Pod Save the World, hosts Tommy Vitor and Ben Rhodes breaks down the latest on Russia's war, Trump world's international chaos, including CPAC's far-right love fest and Pentagon firings, and what Brazil's Bolsonaro's legal troubles mean for global democracy.

And now after the break, I'll be talking to Liberal Democrat leader Sir Ed Davey about the difficult business of standing up to Donald Trump and golden toilets. Oh, golden toilets. What a twist. Pod Save the UK is brought to you by Voi. If you are considering using weight loss products, which is, of course, completely your choice, then you might want to know about Voi.

what did you do last week? They had to respond to this or resign. So yeah, the email said, please reply with approximately five bullets of what you accomplished last week and CC your manager. Musk then followed up on X, failure to respond will be taken as a resignation. So I guess Zoe, the question is, What have you been doing?

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That's J-O-I-N-V-O-Y.com forward slash PSUK. Treatments will only be prescribed if deemed appropriate by a qualified healthcare professional following a consultation. Joinvoi.com forward slash PSUK to get started. Joining us now on Pod Save the UK is leader of the Liberal Democrats, Sir Ed Davey. Welcome, Ed.

You've got a bit of a reputation as the fun guy of politics. I think who could forget the bungee jumping and the paddle boarding stunts of the election campaign, which I have just as a small tangent, like I feel for you because I've got a reputation as being the like fun party friend. And sometimes, you know what, Ed, I don't want to be that. I just want to be taken seriously.

Do you feel the pressure?

Do you think there's an issue that because they've already accepted some of them, there might be some political blowback? I wonder if maybe that's why there's a reluctance there.

Precisely. Also, sorry, I shouldn't laugh, but when you said it all, he just loves the Labour Party.

So quick. Babe, come on.

But despite the negative public sentiment, Energy Secretary Ed Miliband has stayed perky. He told a Labour Climate and Environment Forum drinks, it's a bit like Mario Kart government. Things fly at you. You've just got to keep going. And if you think you're going to have an easy day in government, you're not. So nice for him to compare this all to being blue shelled. Yeah.

You know, very, very on brand for Ed Miliband.

Zoe, thanks so much for joining us. Thank you.

Now, there's no denying that Keir Starmer loves a freebie, whether it's Taylor Swift tickets or a corporate box at the Arsenal game. He's accepted more gifts than any other Labour leader since 1997 combined. But there's no such thing as a free lunch. So they say, so what are big business and millionaires hoping to gain from gifts and donations?

Someone who's been looking into this is Simon Cooper, Financial Times journalist and author of Good Chaps. How How corrupt politicians broke our law and institutions and what we can do about it. Thanks for joining us, Simon.

So, you know, obviously we talked a lot during those last days of the Conservatives about sleaze. What is the distinction between like sleaze and corruption?

And I'm Coco Kahn. And this is Podsafe for UK.

I mean, Keir Starmer and his ministers have repeatedly said that they're acting according to the rules. I just wonder, can you explain to me what exactly are the rules? Is it just anything goes as long as you declare it?

Flood the zone with shit. Is that the phrase?

Wow. So it works for media and it also works for our public waterworks. So, you know, get you a policy that can do both. So in your book, you argue that the UK has become more corrupt over the last few decades. I think almost the public are expecting it. So I guess one of the things I'm trying to work out is how corrupt is Britain? You know, marks out of 10.

One of the things I wanted to ask, just because, you know, what you've outlined there is big money players. And obviously, you know, we started the show talking about the donations, the gifts given to members of the Labour Party, the ministers, you know, Taylor Swift tickets. Generally, those sums would be considered smaller. But are they comparable in terms of the results?

So, you know, we spoke about how in the UK, you can do what you like as long as you declare it, but you never have to declare what that donor has asked for in return. So are we right to assume that of all of these gifts, there would have been something in return?

So do you think that, because obviously Starmer's... His opinion rating is quite low. I think there is still a problem where people don't understand what he stands for. I was hearing a conversation about him the other day and people talking about how even with Blair, his line was, he's a modern man for a modern Britain. And almost his youth in adopting technology, that was part of the brand.

Thinking about the donors that donate whatever sum it might be or gifts through Lord Ali, how do they know what they're going to get in return?

As Labour conference comes to a close, Keir Starmer and Rachel Reeves have declared war on tax dodgers and COVID corruption.

And people still don't fully know what the brand Starmer is. Do you think this corrected it a bit?

It's a classic. So, I mean, this all sounds very terrible. But after the break, we are going to be discussing how we can try to fix this mess.

Very badly behaved, Simon, I'm just saying. An epidemic.

You can sort of see how it happens, you know. So ministers, as you've outlined, have always had a bit of a job to say no to donors, but increasingly are more dependent on them because of the collapse of the membership models. So I wondered, my first thought was like, what about rebuilding membership models? Could that also be a way around it?

Or making ministers be better at saying no to donors through rules? Or do you think those two could have legs?

You know, you were talking about the £2 per citizen would have £130 million, so that would wipe out donors. Would £130 million really be enough? I feel like there's probably, if you added it all up between the two parties, there's probably more money than that, no?

So let's have a think about some of those issues then. Starmer had lots to say on migration. He said that net immigration is too high and claimed that taking back control, the old Brexiteer slogan, is actually a Labour argument. So what is he trying to achieve here, Zoe?

One of my unpopular theories, maybe it wouldn't be unpopular, but definitely too many rich people, it's corrosive for society.

Yeah. It distorts the thinking of people around them. Do you know what I mean?

But wait, British MPs do get paid less than... Are the counterparts in other countries true?

Yeah, as they should, yeah.

I know, I know. I keep thinking about that. Just that very simple policy of assigning £2 per citizen to stop donations. I think it's great. I mean, I'd do it. I'd personally give £2.

Well, the main thing for me is I just want to make sure that if I am bought, it's expensive. Like for my own sense of pride, you're not buying me for a Bowdoin dress. Sorry, no.

I bet everyone's going to have like lovely things like world peace.

Why are we trying to ruin our relationship?

Don't forget to follow at Pod Save the UK on Instagram, TikTok and Twitter. And if you want more of us, make sure you've subscribed to our YouTube channel.

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I had this little moment the other day where I was thinking, wow, over the summer, loads of us were scared to leave our houses. And now we're just expected to just forget about it. And it's weird. I think gaslighting is a really hoist word you use there. Yeah, I hear it.

From one thing that disgusts you to another. This was my personal... I'm going to be quiet for a little bit. So one of the things that Starmer was keen to emphasise was a... Back down on benefits for all. That was his language, prompting critics within the party to say it was almost like George Osborne speaking again. I have to say this was my area of feeling like absolute disgust.

I couldn't believe it. I just can't believe that we're having any conversation around benefits that isn't about the fact that the sums are so paltry that the people who claim them, who many of them are in work and also unwell, are forced to choose between heating and eating, which I think should be what we talk about when we talk about benefits.

tiny problem compared to loads of other issues with the benefit sector. So anyway, so what's Starmer's play here, Zoe?

I really feel like we need to have a better conversation about benefits in this country. It's getting a little bit, on a personal level, I'm getting angry and I don't like me when I'm angry. So benefits is, of course, an enormously important topic and it does require more time than we have today.

So next week, we're going to be looking at how these crackdowns can disproportionately affect minority groups and also just the fairness of the benefit system in general. If you've been affected by benefit sanctions in the past or have some thoughts you want to share, please do email in. I promise you this is a safe space.

Well, let's get into it. Here's a clip of the Prime Minister addressing that very Labour Party conference.

I can say as a child of a single parent mum who worked all hours of the day, we still needed some help from the benefit system. So this is very much a safe space and I understand how it can be. If you do want to email, the address is psuk at reducelistening.co.uk and don't forget to subscribe if you haven't already. You can catch us in your feeds next Thursday.

Right, exactly. I mean, it wouldn't cost anything to just say I understand the depth of feeling on this issue is a great moral question of our time. I'm committed to it. Why do you have to take a swipe at people who are not even in the room anymore? God, what is this?

This is a democracy on this show, with our listeners as well. It was a suggestion.

Well, look, I'm a millennial and an ageing, ageing millennial. And, you know, I would say there's a bit of a deficit of democracy for my generation. Like we don't actually have a lot of choices. And part of that is because of the first past the post system. But also it's because no one's having these conversations.

So I'm not going to say whether you should or should not start a political party, but it is... Interesting. So hypothetically speaking, if we did have a new left-wing party, do you think it should be a separate political project or just really to influence the Labour Party, a bit like reform did with the Tories?

obviously there's a that's right in fairness i've never seen you taking cannabis and that's the end of that sentence that's the end of that sentence that's the end of it isn't making stuff up fun so obviously obviously there's plenty of uh you know actual productive suggestions to you know some of the uh the comments that have come in include clean the hospitals now and then uh better health care which is you know certainly one we could agree with as well as maybe actually providing some health care to trans people an actual good suggestion um

And later, with US elections looming, we're joined by co-host of our sister podcast, Pod Save the World's Tommy Vitor, to discuss what it means for US and UK relations.

I sniggered a little bit when you said it's not just me and you having a conversation about economics. I was like, oh, no, that's not a conversation I'm having. I can assure you that's not my conversation.

You're in my kitchen. That's where you are now.

Jeremy Corbyn, thank you so much for joining us on Pod Save the UK.

In a year of way too many elections around the world, this one's been looming large over the lot. That is the American election. So November's US election will reverberate around the globe, really, for years to come.

So joining us now to discuss just how, I believe the official word is fucked, we are if Donald Trump somehow manages to find his way into the White House for the second time is the co-host of our sister podcast, Pod Save the World's Tommy Vito. Hi, Tommy.

How's your energy levels in regards to that? Because it's a bit of a marathon, the U.S. election.

Well, I mean, you know, Keir Starmer keeps talking about continuity and I suppose she's seen as the continuity candidate. I do just want to come back to this quite horrifying picture you painted of Donald Trump becoming president and just really pick your brains about what that means for us in the UK. I mean, lots of Starmer's cabinet have criticised him.

David Lammy, who you know well as well, you know, he's described him as a woman-hating, neo-Nazi-sympathising sociopath. Ed Miliband, current energy secretary, said the idea that we have shared values with a racist, misogynistic, self-confessed groper beggars belief. I mean, do you think this stuff is something that Trump will not forgive us for?

You know, that it will prove a problem and out from the fire and brimstone that occurs, Nigel Farage will rise from the ashes.

But the, you know, the ties between Labour and the Democrats. It's quite well established. It does go beyond door knocking. I understand that Harris's team have for a long time swapped campaign tips with Labour, which I also find mildly amusing because Labour's whole campaign was just, we're not the Tories. I mean, that was the whole thing. I don't know what tips were exchanged.

But if Harris does win, what could a progressive alliance between the US and the UK look like? Like, what can we expect? Sunny uplands, rainbows, bunnies? What is this future that we might finally get?

OK, you need to explain that for us, for us people, please.

Got you.

Hang on, again, again, again. I've missed this completely. So the US as a present sent us two bad teams. Is that what you're saying?

They're not there for the weather. Can I ask you just a question about mood? I mean, one of the things that I was really struck by here in the UK was the Tories were out. And I think there was a sense of relief for that. But there wasn't a sense of joy. You know, certainly I didn't detect it amongst my own peer group.

But even when I was out and about, you know, on election night, admittedly, I drank enough for everyone. So that was fine. But nonetheless... You know, it was very subdued. And I think that was a reflection of the, I would say, the Labour Party not giving a robust offering of hope. What do you think the mood is going to be like for you guys that next day?

Last question before I let you go. So, you know, we've just had our 100 days of Starmer. We don't normally go for the 100 days measure in the UK, but it's really caught on. If we check back with you after 100 days, do you think you'll feel differently? Yeah.

Hi, this is Pod Save the UK. I'm Coco Kahn.

So do you think we'll see more immediate impact on foreign policy than domestic?

Well, exactly. It is important that patients have an opportunity to speak about their experience and more information is good. But I would be surprised if there wasn't already a wealth of patient data out there and there was already stuff that they could be working on to, you know, stop this acute problem that's going to happen in winter because that's what people want.

Now, suitably following our chat with Tommy, we thought it might be time to look at some other international affairs. So the script is telling us to use our posh voices. So here goes. King Charles has spent six days in Australia bringing joy to local tat makers as they manufacture commemorative spoons and tea mugs doomed to live for eternity on the shelves of Aussie charity shops.

So the protester you heard there was actually independent Australian Senator Lydia Thorpe, an indigenous Australian woman and former member of the Australian Greens. She's long been an advocate of Australia becoming a republic and has drawn controversy over her years of service to Parliament.

Thorpe's objection to the voice stated that if Indigenous Australians were to accept the terms, it would have amounted to a treaty, something that none of the many groups of Indigenous Australians have ever consented to, and arguing that it would be, and I quote, "...an easy way to fake progress."

She has instead supported the Pay the Rent campaign, named after a lyric in an iconic Indigenous rights song that encourages Australians to voluntarily pay reparations. So look, her protest directly to King Charles, you heard her there saying, you know, give us our land back, you stole our land.

Right.

Caricom, a group of 15 Caribbean governments, are likely to call for reparations that could exceed £200 billion. But Starmer has said reparations were not on his agenda, which is in line with the former Tory government who repeatedly resisted calls for a payout.

Yeah, it's like a fact-finding mission.

I mean, look... Most British people are not aware of the UK's role in colonising Australia. Well, I mean, certainly not aware of the role in, I mean, let's be frank, mass killing. Indigenous Australians killed. I think it's a genocide. It's an absolute genocide, yeah. And we have a collective amnesia about this. You know, so Thorpe mentions in the clip, you know, our children, our babies.

So that's a reference to the Stolen Generation where children of indigenous mothers were taken from their families to live with white Australians. I mean, how grotesque is that? You know, and it's really hard to deny that her protest, you know, it was just incredibly successful. I mean, it put it on the world stage. We're sitting here having a conversation about it now.

So, you know, I'd have to say if we were doing Hero of the Week, I might put her in for it.

Yeah. And it was also not that long ago, which also gives me lots of chills.

Well, I don't think it's unreasonable for us as citizens, as voters, to expect that there was already a robust plan in place. Which actually leads me very nicely to our next guest, who famously produced two very thorough plans that he put to the public before two general elections.

Oh, really?

Some weird form of couple therapy. I've no idea.

Well, I mean, that quote tells you that.

That is, Ugh, all of that, that whole, that all gives me the ick, all of that. It's really horrific.

You don't offer like a sort of, you know, for a higher price, you get a VIP service where it's just you and them, is it? That's not like, you know, like Taylor had some of those experiences.

The Nishkumar Findom experience. Buy a ticket, spend your money and then just get really abused.

And that's it. Thanks for listening to Pod Save the UK. And we want to hear your thoughts. Email us at psuk at reducelistening.co.uk.

Pod Save the UK is a reduced listening production for Crooked Media.

Our theme music is by Vasilis Fotopoulos.

The executive producers are Anishka Sharma, Madeleine Herringer, with additional support from Ari Schwartz. Dan Jackson is also our head of production.

Now, Labour might have won a landslide victory in the general election, but one of the more surprising outcomes was the unlikely gains made by the Greens and a surge in the number of independent candidates. With greater collaboration, could they become a real power in politics?

Oh, actually, I remember us talking about this and I thought to myself, you should have had youth, Jeremy Corbyn. You know, 16 years old, could have been rock and roll.

Yeah.

Yeah, so on Monday, the Health Secretary, Wes Streeting, announced an open public consultation on the future of the NHS. And in the grand tradition, it makes you so patriotic, things got very weird.

So you use the phrase, you know, it's not very well thought out. And I'm glad you said that, because I think it's fair to say that's a concern Nish and I have had. You know, we were talking about West Streeting's public consultation for the NHS. Of course, you know, getting the public involved is wonderful. You know, increasing democracy in our political participation is wonderful. But also...

I thought you had a plan, mate. Keir Starmer stood in front of the public, you know, went on television and said, it's much worse than we thought. Now, we can argue about whether that is the case. It certainly seemed like the press knew it was much worse than they were saying.

But I guess one of the things I wanted to ask you is, how reasonable is it to expect the government to have had a plan before they, you know, on the run up to election that they should have already had these things in place? You went to an election twice. How much of a plan did you have for the first 12 months?

According to The Guardian last month, you spoke at the launch of a new left-wing political party, reportedly named Collective. It was attended by left-wing grandees such as yourself, former Unite head Len McCluskey, filmmaker Ken Loach. Can you tell us anything about this party? What is it?

You don't like grandee.

Okay, fine, fine, fine, fine.

Okay, all right, we'll work on it. We'll work on it. Everything's a process, Jeremy. These are just first attempts, okay?

This is ridiculous. You do this every opportunity you can. Just make some little dig about some false accusation about me and potential recreational drug use. It's just utterly absurd. I would never take recreational cannabis, not least because it makes me sick.

I can tell you're not going to give me an answer on whether it's going to be a party or not. But in the spirit of democracy, I'm going to give you my thoughts.

Oh my God. Did you watch the inauguration?

The UK government has sought to restore its status as a climate leader on the world stage, but many environmental groups have argued that their plans are too narrow. Instead, they have been campaigning for a climate and nature bill, claiming it would have monumental implications for Britain's chances of slashing emissions and doing our part to help with the climate crisis.

I think most people can agree that the 4th of July election was a good election for progressives. And obviously you were part of that tide. So if you had to guess what consequences there might be for the Labour government with its progressive base for not being a bit more polite, but unfriendly or whatever language we want to use, what do you think consequences could be?

You'll need Labour support for this bill, right?

It was... I'm going to use the word nightmarish, and I mean that genuinely, literally. As someone who's a vivid dreamer myself, it felt like figures from my subconscious coming back. You had all the thin-skinned bully boys who are now the most powerful men in the world. The Hamburglar was there, Melania Trump. You have to have these strange cartoon characters from your past.

So if I was a Labour spokesperson, which I'm not, but this is what I might say. I might say, thing is though, Carla, the people, what they really want in the minute is the cost of living to go down and they want a better quality of life. And the only way we're going to do that is to grow the economy and we need these runways to grow the economy. So we've got no choice.

Hi, this is Pod Save the UK. I'm Coco Khan.

What caused it? Homeless people?

And also with the California fires as well, the thing that I was really struck by is all those very expensive houses proves to you you cannot inoculate yourself in the climate crisis. It doesn't matter how rich you are. It doesn't matter. It's coming for you.

Don't worry, Elon Musk is going to go to Mars. Well, maybe that'd be great, actually.

Well, I think you sort of summed it up there. Like, you know, this bill will do a lot, but it's not the only one we need. Yeah. Also, I paid the best part of £300 when I turned 30 to learn how to swim because I didn't really know how to do it as an adult. Do you have any idea how humiliating it is to be 30 years old in a primary school swimming pool being taught by a 16-year-old how to swim?

I'm going in the sea someday and I need to make sure I'm not going to get E. coli. That's all I'm saying. This is a personal mission for me. I don't know who I need to write to. You don't want to have wasted that 300 quid. No way. Coco the eel is my moment. It's coming. It's coming.

Carla Denya, thank you for joining Pod Save the UK. We will be watching in a non-creepy way. After the break, we'll be taking a look at the parade of horrors who made the trip across the pond for Trump's inauguration.

Right, so the UK's very own basket of deplorables descended on Washington DC to watch the ceremony. On the guest list of horrors was Suella Braverman, who was filmed by Channel 4 News wearing a MAGA hat and boarding the same flight as hard right activist Lawrence Fox.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's funny that that was the film you went to, because the film I went to was Snakes on a Plane. LAUGHTER

Yeah, but it might be one of those, you know, those awkward things where you walk along with someone that you work with and then, oh, it turns out you're on the same train and now you have to chat.

I know.

It came out a lot cattier than I meant it. I just meant as a... Not that I'm trying to defend them or anything like that. But also part of the... Moving swiftly on.

So me. Imagine if I start calling you my co-worker. My co-worker, Nish. Also part of the UK's right-wing exodus to DC was Nigel Farage, Priti Patel and Liz Truss. Truss posted a photo of herself on X wearing a MAGA hat with the caption, In DC, the new Donald Trump term can't come soon enough. The West needs it.

Yeah, yeah, that's good.

I'm still hoping that Tesla are going to hire Liz Truss just to have her Liz Truss effect. I just want that to happen.

On a lighter note, despite travelling thousands of miles, none of this motley crew made it into the actual Capitol building itself to watch the ceremony firsthand. Boris Johnson was the only politician to make the cut from the UK. It must have left Trump whisperer Nigel Farage feeling pretty salty.

Oh, my God. It's sad, isn't it?

I know, but the punchline is us because this is the world we live in. Yeah, that's right. Did you ever read that profile of Kid Rock in Rolling Stone?

Okay. Well, if any of our listeners are interested in like a 3,000-word interview profile about Kid Rock, it's really good. It's a really good piece of journalism. But in that, you get a portrayal of a man who is quite sad, quite lonely, and is just desperate for approval and is kind of getting it from the mag a lot.

And there's a moment where he's trying to impress this Rolling Stone journalist for reasons we don't understand. At the same time, he's also trolling this Rolling Stone journalist. Yeah. And he says, oh, I've got Trump's number. And he phones the number and Trump doesn't answer. You can just imagine him just there like, oh, he's going to answer. He's going to answer. He does not answer.

And that is the vibe that I got there. Like, why are you in this room, my friend?

That was painful viewing.

I think that's part of the celebration.

Oh, my God. I really recognize that, like, ha, ha, ha, ha, walk away. Do you know what I mean?

They're like, just smile so they don't, you know, hurt you and then walk away. It's really, oh, sends kind of chills down my spine. I just hope, obviously, Katrina Penney's consummate professional knows exactly what to do. And I'm just waiting for that moment where she's no longer as a representative of the press and can just let loose.

Yeah, it really is. And it sort of, you know, immediately raises questions about like women's safety and even covering this sort of stuff and covering these sort of men. No woman should be sexually harassed in the workplace. And that's sort of what we're witnessing, isn't it? In front of us. It's just a very dispiriting thing to see.

Yeah.

No, no.

It was honestly just a coincidence.

It was a coincidence that the example I went to happened to be one from our lives, okay?

From this morning, yeah. It's just a coincidence.

And don't forget to follow at Pod Save the UK on Instagram, TikTok and Twitter. If you want more of us, you have to subscribe to our YouTube channel. You can see our faces in everything.

Thanks to senior producer James Tindale and assistant producer Mae Robson.

Thanks to our engineer, Jeep Vasani.

And remember to hit subscribe for new shows on Thursdays on Amazon, Spotify or Apple or wherever you get your podcasts.

And later, we'll be speaking to Green Party leader Carla Denya about what the new Trump presidency might mean for the climate emergency.

And also sometimes it can feel implicit in that is that therefore women should pair up with these men. That's what you must do. I don't want to. Yeah.

So Starmer's suggestion of a US backstop to deter Russia wasn't quite explained there. But we might find out next week when Starmer meets with Trump in Washington.

I'll just come back to this point about the business and the capitalism of love. There's something about this particular moment, and I don't know if I'm right about this, where it's not in commercial interest for people to actually find love. Like it's better for them to remain lonely, to feel that it's their fault so that they buy more cosmetics or they do, you know, have more whatever juices.

And for the app's point of view, the more users, the better, right? So despite the famous slogan of knit hinge designed to be deleted, that's not necessarily the case. Does that sound right to you?

I mean, this conversation is also tied to the declining birth rate conversation. Do you think it's the government's role to get involved with this?

Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, you, in the book, you devote a chapter to motherhood and you write, you know, as a society, we profess our love to mothers, but it's clear that we often despise them. Just thinking about what you're saying about, like, how much hatred there is. I mean, I also grew up single. Mum, if anyone's seen my father, please direct him to a child support agency.

I don't know how long those claims... Literally the same. Please, there's 36 years of money I'm owed, so please, please find me. Yeah, same. And I think you're right. Like, you know, the villainisation of single mums is testimony to this. These are meant to be the mothers that we supposedly love. Right-wing groups are obsessed with the mother and they use it to be a weapon of oppression.

What did you observe in your book around that?

No, I know. I'm hearing a lot of the word frontline on the radio today, which doesn't make me feel great. And also, immediately after you hear these words, frontline, you hear this tidbit from a former military chief. It basically says we don't have enough money. We don't have enough resources in the army to actually run a front line.

So am I right in thinking that maybe we need to move away from romantic love then?

And no one to ask you when your house is burnt down. Yeah. Yeah. I do have one last question for you. And, you know, we talked about love, but we also briefly touched upon hate. And there's a lot of hate going around in society. And I think it's fair to say that there can be, you know, thinking about politics, there can be this desire to just see your opponent suffer, really.

And as long as they suffer, you've won, even if you've sort of suffering yourself or even just not made a change to your own life. But at least you made a migrant cry or at least, you know, you hurt somebody else. How do we engage with people we don't love?

But what do you do about it? Last year, Australia introduced the world's strictest laws against social media giants banning children under the age of 16 from using their services. Questions abound as to how this might actually work, with the law set to come into force at the end of the year.

Thanks so much for having me. So let's be real. This petition has no real chance of becoming law, does it?

bastion of regulation and where do we find something kind of in the middle I think it's worth saying that the stakes couldn't really be higher though right like I mean it's now indisputable that there is harm that is happening through online platforms and that children are being affected yeah

He loves the idea that superpowers can just do whatever they want. And the superpowers are America, China, Russia, Saudi, I guess, because they've got loads of money. Europe is not a superpower in his mind. And so that really tells you his bully boy mentality, that there's a natural order to might is right and bigger gets whatever they want, right?

And so where does that leave Britain? Well, we've sort of ruined many alliances after Brexit. OK, so maybe we align ourselves more with Europe. I'm not convinced that we can be this conduit. I think we might have to choose a side a bit here. Maybe this is a time for us and Europe to kind of reconcile and work together to face this kind of large, looming economic threat.

Thin skin is very in fashion with their current leadership.

He's in it.

Is he the guy who put a chip in his head or is he injecting his son's blood?

Right. Son's blood.

And that's it. Thanks for listening to Pod Save the UK. Don't forget to follow at Pod Save the UK on Instagram, TikTok and Twitter. And we're on Blue Sky now too. Follow us at podsavetheuk.crooked.com. And if you want more of us, make sure you've subscribed to our YouTube channel. We'll have exclusive cuts on there, extended interviews, and you get to see Nisha's face in full colour.

Angry, disgusted, full colour.

Ponce in the UK is a reduced listening production for Crooked Media.

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The executive producers are Anushka Sharma, Tanya Hines, Madeleine Herringer and Katie Long with additional support from Irish Horts.

What an absolute joker. This posturing of European values, censorious, and that they are the true flag bearers of free speech is completely ludicrous. I don't know if you saw Newsnight last night, but there was an ex-Trump advisor arguing with Victoria Derbyshire on there.

And she actually said, well, you know, something to the effect of Britain can't talk because you've got more people in jail for expressing your opinion than Russia. You what? What are you talking about? That's just completely made up nonsense. It sounds like at the minute, Starmer's coming out pretty strong, maybe even stronger than some European leaders. Do you think at the minute, this is good?

This is like a good moment for Starmer to be doing this? Is he showing leadership? Is this going to work well for him?

That does not make me feel secure on a national level, Nish.

And I'm Coco Kahn. Today, Trump's foreign policy shift has left Europe reeling. But is Starmer's vision of sending peacekeeping troops to Ukraine the answer?

I mean, that is a lot. And there will be sections of the general public that are like, I'm sorry, why are we cutting our services for a war that's really far away in a completely different... You know, where are your priorities, Starmer? And I think... Part of me thinks he's really showing his leadership a bit here and maybe this is going to be good for him.

Oh, but elsewhere, a petition to ban children under the age of 16 from social media is doing the rounds. Tortoise tech reporter Patricia Clark is here to tell us whether this will really save the children.

Another part of me thinks this is terrible for him. Morality is clearly no longer a factor in any of this. And you kind of see you see the narrative changing, even like, you know, some of the comments that Trump's made being protecting Europe's no longer our our main priority, as though all these things were done out of the goodness of America's heart.

And actually, you know, when you look at the money that has gone in to support Ukraine, Europe has given more than America collectively, not one individual nation. Sure. So, you know, again, so cutting them out of the talks is this really horrific thing to do, an unfair thing to do. But you can just get this sense of like the wheels turning, the narrative turning.

And part of me is like, oh, this is the new allegiance. It's Trump and Putin and, you know, whatever other other dictators, despots or whatever we want to call them. But then I also saw a comment that he released earlier where he said it would be fine for any European countries to continue to buy arms from America if they do want to choose to progress this conflict.

And you just think, oh, OK, maybe this isn't about alliance. This is just about money as it was all along.

Yeah. So in the end, who are the losers? It's just going to be normal civilians who are caught up in this mess. And who are the winners? The arms manufacturers, basically.

Plus, US President J.D. Vance and Elon Musk meddling in the German election, Austria's far-right flopping, and more.

So, back to the UK, I have a clip to share. play for you. It's not just Olaf Scholz that has been more than a little irritated with Starmer lately. While out and about a development in Milton Keynes, the Prime Minister's trip was cut short after an intervention from farmers. They were protesting the government's inheritance tax plans in this clip from The Guardian.

Now, this week has seen a monumental meeting between Russia and the United States to discuss the future of Ukraine. It was held in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, blindsiding leaders in Ukraine and Europe who were cut out of the negotiations.

Oh, yeah. It's a classic. It's an absolute club classic. I'm genuinely very impressed. I'm just impressed that they did that. Do you think it was a pre-record? No, it couldn't have been.

Yeah, you're a farmer that can do both. Yeah.

The letters said, and we quote, these measures mimic the performative cruelty of the failed Tory governments rejected by voters last July. They also breach Britain's international obligations to respect the right to claim asylum and guarantee safe routes. Far from being a drain on this country, migrants from all over the world enrich our society in every sense.

Anti-migrant politics will not build a single house, staff a single hospital or raise anyone's wages. Instead, by echoing its rhetoric, the government is simply fuelling the rise of Reform UK.

Pulling no punches there either. No legitimate concerns. You don't see that sort of language in there. Starmer was saying this week, you know, we have to accept that there are legitimate grievances. Every time I read these things, I'm like... The picture that is created is so that everyone's got their fingers in the ears going like, la, la, la, la, la. We left the EU. We sabotaged our economy.

We took away the sort of opportunities for the young. We've left ourselves in a desert. What do you mean? Why are you acting? We've done it. We did the thing. I hate this narrative.

Now, after the break, we're asking... What's love got to do with it? We're speaking to Sean Fay. Pod Save the UK is brought to you by Shopify.

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Loneliness has been declared a growing epidemic across the world and is now regarded as a global health threat by the World Health Organization. Men are faring the worst in the UK and US. One in five single men say they have no close friends. And men make up 61% of users on dating apps, with more and more becoming unintentionally single long term.

So often when we think about love, we think of it outside of politics. You know, we're a politics podcast, so why are we having a conversation about love? And I guess I wanted to ask you, why do you think love is a political issue?

And who can forget the return of mandatory national service, which would have required every 18-year-old to spend a year in military service or one weekend a month volunteering.

But at the same time that Sunak was trying to inspire the younger generation, he was pissing off the older generation by leaving the 80th anniversary of D-Day early to record an ITV interview where he spoke about the things he had to go without as a child.

Famously, Sky TV. Famously.

Well, look, I think it's fair to say that many of us on the left have complicated feelings towards Labour under Keir Starmer. But watching their landslide 412 seats come through one by one on election night, I mean, it was quite enjoyable. Let's just take a little moment to just remember that feeling.

Yeah, I think, like, if you are progressive, whether you were supporting the Greens or independents, there was lots to be happy about. I had a Jaeger bomb for every Tory MP that I really particularly hated losing their seat.

Well, I tried to. I don't really remember a lot of it.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure, for sure. And when the exit poll first came in, I had a Jagerbomb.

Just to see the Tories decimated.

Oh, yeah, for sure.

Fair and square is the right phrase, actually.

It's a bit like if fun was an Aldi knock-off, like time flies when you're having enjoyment. Time flies when you're having food. That's the UK. Anyway, did you think we'd be sitting here with a new government?

Last week, Saudi Arabia was named the host of the 2034 World Cup. And it's no coincidence in season two of World Corrupt, Roger Bennett and Tommy Vitor uncover how an oil-rich nation with a grim human rights record bought its way to global influence from wooing soccer stars to Silicon Valley investors.

And you are forced to wear them. So please choose one, whichever you would like. I'll take this modest one.

Once the debris from the election parties had been cleared in Keir Starmer and packed all his boxes of Arsenal scarves, free suits and glasses into number 10, what did Labour do next?

Anyway, things turned out quite badly. In the summer, we had the horrible attack in Southport, followed by devastating riots, spurred on in part by newly elected MP Nigel Farage, who amplified fake news reports that the man involved in the Southport attack was known to British security services.

Starmer condemned the rioters, but wouldn't explicitly call out their racism, opting for the vaguer phrase, whatever the apparent motivation.

Then, of course, in October, we got to the first Labour budget in 14 years. Nish is actually wearing a Grinch hat.

See, now this is going into harassment. This is now going into HR.

Felt like we hadn't said it for like five minutes. You can see how it happens. You have a sort of ongoing blue joke and then, oh, now it's turned. Now it's turned about the moment. I just feel like, you know, if we're going to chat about the budget, the Grinch hat is very nice.

Doesn't make you feel good about the sort of control of the budget they held for many years.

Now, as the day started to get colder and shorter, there was one massive, overwhelming, terrifying news event that seemed to overshadow all others, and it's, of course, the US election. Convicted felon and sexual abuser Donald Trump won the White House again, beating Kamala Harris across all swing states and won the popular vote for the first time. Now the dust has settled, Desiree.

How are you feeling?

But there has been a bit of a... sort of re-nosing of Labour strategy. Like, I think they have learnt a lesson from the American election results where they have understood that it's not enough to say that our economy is buoyant. If people don't feel it in their pocket, they will disregard it. Living standards in the UK are very, very low and are getting lower.

So when, after five months in office, Starmer finally declared that the government had a plan and the plan is change, maybe now is the time we believe it? Or what do you think, Liz?

And I think as well, I mean, going back to that initial thought of, okay, five months later when he says change, he was saying change all along. Do we finally believe it? Well, that's the crucial word, change. Is it change? Is anything changing or is it just managed better? And do we need managed better?

Yes. So it's the same. The polls have put Labour behind Reform and the Conservatives, well, some of the polls anyway, despite the new leader, Kemi Badenoch, having nothing to say beyond picking fights with bread, if the latest story is to be believed. Last week, she declared that sandwiches aren't real food. The polls are in the gutter. The tabloids are having a field day.

This week, the Daily Star rejoiced in the headline, saying that Keir Starmer is the worst prime minister in recent history... according to Brits. Who else would it be according to? According to Brits. So it sounds like, you know, we have these rogue operators on the outside promising change.

And of course, when you scrutinise it, you know, that's not going to change anything unless making richer and poorer even more stark is the change you're looking for. But the fact remains, the people are not happy with Mr Starmer.

Do you want to explain this turn of conversation this or shall I?

To close us off with something a little more silly, it's my favourite bit, the song bit, where politicians, we recap on how the politicians around the country have been using some songs to make their voices heard this year. So, for example, we had Paul Thomas candidate for a reform with his rendition of The Spice Girls.

So I was like, oh, I'm reading way too much political content.

And then I had another incident recently where I was listening to Beyonce's Irreplaceable, to the left, to the left. And you know, the chorus is, you must not know what I mean. I could get another you in a minute. And I thought, I was like, this is the song about Keir Starmer. Oh, my God.

I feel actually that's us as disenfranchised Labour voters. We're singing that to him. We could get another you in a minute. You'll be here in a minute. To the left.

She does, she does. But anyway, in the spirit of just far too much political content, in his final show of electoral spectacle for the year, Lib Dem leader Sir Ed Davey is vying for Christmas number one. He's performing alongside the Bath Philharmonic Young Carers Choir with their song Love Is Enough.

I'm proud of myself. I feel like I'm hanging out with people that are a couple of years above me in school because you're all like, Christmas decorations, lame. Let's make porn jokes. And I'm like,

Don't forget to follow at Pod Save the UK on Instagram, TikTok and Twitter. And if you want more of us, make sure you subscribe to our YouTube channel.

Nish and I are taking a little holiday break for the next two weeks. Not together, but it would be fun, wouldn't it? We'll be back with you in early January.

Which is better or worse?

Thanks to senior producer James Tindow and assistant producers Mae Robson, Nadas Miljanic and Artemis Irvin, with extra research from Adam Wright.

Thanks to our engineers, Jeet Vasani and Ryan McBeath. The head of production is Dan Jackson.

And remember to hit subscribe for new shows on Thursdays on Amazon, Spotify or Apple or wherever you get your podcasts. Have a great non-denominational holiday. See you in the new year, guys.

Back to politics. Desiree, you had two elections this year. Yeah, sadly.

So let's cast our eyes back to the start of the year. On the 4th of January, Prime Minister Rishi Sunak, then Prime Minister Rishi Sunak, should I say? Enjoyed it. I'm having a great time. He declared that it was his working assumption that the election would happen in the second half of the year. It turned out he did keep his word, but only just.

And I'm Coco Karn. And today we're looking back on the year that was. Pod Save the UK wrapped, if you will.

So, Liz, if there was one policy that defined the end of 14 years of Conservative rule, it's got to be this one, right? Rwanda, the Rwanda plan. Callous, incompetent, cost the UK an estimated £700 million. What do you think? Does it summarise the end of the Tories?

Joining us now to recap this wild year is Sky News' Liz Bates and comedian Desiree Burge.

I guess you could say time flies when you're having fun, no?

We should probably just tell the listeners the clip that we just played. Liz Truss comes across as being, I'm just going to say it's slightly inebriated. I'm not saying she is. Maybe that's just her giddy personality.

Hi. Welcome, welcome. Thank you for having us.

But she's on camera and she says, oh, look, this is my new book. She holds it up. It's back to front. Then she flips it around, but it's upside down. There's just a little bit of sort of slapstick there.

We always try to give tangible solutions on this podcast. And even though a lot of the issues that we face today sometimes can feel insurmountable, we do want to give a shout out to the charity Choose Love. Choose Love supports refugees and displaced people globally in the UK, the Middle East, at the Mexico-US border, across Europe, via a network of refugee and community-run organisations.

They provide everything from nutritious food to warm clothes, safe spaces for women,

100% of what you give goes to buying that item or something similar. If you're doing any gifting, you can also buy in the name of a loved one and send them over an e-card to let them know what you bought on their behalf.

Labour, of course, seemed very excited about the announcement, but they also seemed like they were, I believe the official term is shitting themselves. We often talk on this podcast about whether they were truly ready. Their strategy seemed to involve just going to spectacles Spectacular lengths to say nothing at all. You say it best when you say nothing at all.

How's it? This is like a form of therapy, isn't it? You know, you blacked out parts of it and we're here in a friendly way to remind you. It's like exposure therapy.

Oh, I'm feeling the pop music references coming. It will not be the last in this episode. So yeah, they said nothing apart from the word change. Should you change? Oh no, stop me. Anyway, the Lib Dems took a different approach to campaigning. Leader Ed Davey took himself to every available campaign podium and the Tories focused on churning out red meat.

Just spend money on it. Spend money on the public services. Spend money on integration, you know, assistance programs, like create community. Spend money on it. I just feel like we just always have this, oh, it's so tricky, so tricky. Is it? Just spend money on it.

Of course, of course. I think the word you used, myths there, was really good. It was a really good word because... I think as well, you know, I'm saying spend money on it, but that almost in a way, when I say that, it sort of enforces the idea that like, you know, because there's whatever pressures on GPs, it's all because of immigrants. And that's not quite true, is it?

I suppose in a way you're sort of hoping, or they're sort of hoping, that as long as people see their world improve, it all will be forgiven. Although when you were talking about, oh, that's what Blair did in 1997, I just kept thinking, yes, babe, but they didn't have Twitter then. Like there wasn't this rolling feed of everyone up to date on what you said then and we remember, you know.

Anushka Asthana, thank you so much for joining us on Podsafe UK. Thank you for having me.

Wow.

Yeah, no, absolutely. Fantastic to bring that insight. Look, I'm just going to ask you directly, Josh, and I hope you'll take this question in the spirit of millennial to millennial. So why the Lib Dems then? Why the Lib Dems?

So do you think that this will shape the Lib Dems essentially being in opposition to Labour? Obviously, the official opposition are in total disarray and are all bananas, let's be honest. The Lib Dems have got a sizeable number of MPs. I imagine you're taking it upon yourselves to be the opposition in some way.

These are the sort of battle lines we might see, do you think, around things like civil liberties, around the state overstepping personal liberty. Is this an indicator of what we can expect?

Brian, can you ask Ed to come on our show, please? That would be great. Let's just talk about getting things done then. Let's talk about your own portfolio, which is justice. You know, look, the prisons are in crisis. We've talked about it on our show. And last month at the Lib Dem conference, you spoke about the presumptions against short sentencing.

There's been whispers that the government ministers are considering scrapping short sentences. You know, what are the other reforms that need to be looked at? What's the most urgent thing, do you think?

Well, that is a lovely place to leave this. So thank you so much, Josh. Thank you for joining us on Pod Save the UK.

It is a criminal offence to make inaccurate claims and if the candidate is found to have breached election laws, they can be evicted from the House of Commons and a by-election called. So the iPaper also quotes another independent candidate in Leicester South that claims that there was an appearance that Suleiman and Adam were working in tandem.

There's also allegations that Shoket Adam's team employed heavy-handed tactics whilst campaigning in Leicester. Adam denies that Suleiman was working for him during the election campaign, but confirmed he had done some volunteering earlier in the year. Suleiman also denies any collusion.

Yeah, I can't help but feel frustrated by it. And that is saying something because normally wherever the loony party is, it's a good time for me. I mean, I love hearing about them and their crazy ideas.

Yeah, and joke policies.

Here you go. Here's some current loony party policies. London Marathon is free to anyone wearing clown shoes. There you go. Great, great policy. terrorists will be made to wear bells and horns so we know where they are. You know what I mean? They normally bring me such joy. But sadly, that has been taken from me this week with this story.

She's the centre of every storm, babe. Come on, keep up, keep up, Nick.

Yeah. He says with a gun to his head.

Don't take the tickets. Come on. If you have knowledge that that has happened, it might look bad for you to suddenly have free tickets.

Because it would seem like, as a thank you for sorting this out, I'm now going to award you with free tickets, right? That's how it looks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If the two things are unrelated.

Just don't take them.

I wonder what would happen if you just, as an experiment for the podcast, just sent a load of Labour MPs tickets to your tour. Just to see. Just to see what would happen. Maybe you should do that. What could possibly go wrong?

One week on from the great big reset inside Number 10, suddenly it seems like there's a flurry of activity from the government. It's a nice change from the month of stasis, but with a lifeless opposition and a stonking majority, are we about to see some radical reforms?

Ruthless is quite a... I would describe it as a negative word. But do you think... in the political space that actually people might admire it. Maybe even the electorate might admire it. I mean, I remember back, obviously, Jeremy Corbyn was a very different leader, but I remember there was a constant criticism of him that he would be too soft. And that was what people said in the press.

Thanks for listening to Pod Save the UK and we want to hear your thoughts. Email us at psuk at reducedlistening.co.uk

Pod Save the UK is a reduced listening production for Crooked Media.

Our theme music is by Vasilis Fotopoulos.

The executive producers are Anushka Sharma and Madeleine Herringer, with additional support from Ari Schwartz.

He was too soft, too, you know, wet.

But he said, basically, sometimes... Sorry, that was just a tangent about our ongoing arguments about swearing on this show.

And I'm Coco Kahn. With just two weeks to go until the autumn budget, Labour is preparing to make some huge reforms. But how ruthless is Keir Starmer willing to be in reshaping the UK? We're speaking to ITV's political editor, Anushka Astana, to find out.

With the electorate, do you think that's different though? Do they value ruthlessness? Do they perceive it as a show of strength or actually they want their leaders to be compassionate?

Right. OK.

Musk has thrown his support behind far-right politicians across the world, praising Canada's far-right populist candidate and openly endorsing the far-right AFD party in Germany, to name just a few. But aside from Musk, who else stands to benefit and what's the risk to our democracy?

You observed there was a system cultivating this far-right moment quite some while ago, right?

15 years ahead. I mean, well done on this terrible thing.

So just briefly, Alt-Reich is part of the title. I must confess, I hadn't heard that phrase before. What is it? When we say Alt-Reich, what do we mean?

No, I mean, I'm really glad you said that because, you know, we mentioned earlier about the AFD and I remember reading about a chilling story regarding them this week about how they're, they would call them provocative leaflets for the upcoming election are plane tickets and, And they're addressed to the illegal immigrant. And it's essentially like a promise of deportation.

I grew up in Barking and Dagenham where there was a really strong BNP moment. We never got leaflets as powerfully horrible as that, but we did get BNP leaflets. And I remember the feeling of being a brown British person and getting a leaflet like that and then going to a mixed school and that feeling of separation that had been sparked up by this.

And it reminded me like, OK, that's a really good reminder. These people are not far right. They're white supremacists. Because you say far right, it just sounds, do you know what I mean? Like it might sound like a legitimate part of democracy. But what we're actually describing is fascists, Nazis, or a genus of anyway.

Right. Now they say they're about integration. But a leaflet like that's not about integrating. It's about dividing. Why do you think they are toning it down? Is it because they know no one will vote for it?

I think too many people watch Trainspotting in Cabinet, don't they?

Oh, very good. Very good.

I'm glad you mentioned about how these disparate groups and these disparate motivations can coalesce around these kind of shared aims. Not everyone involved in this network, this alt-right network, will necessarily be a Nazi. But for whatever reason, they think it's politically expedient to work together with groups that if they're not Nazi now, then they certainly have been Nazi before.

I mean, I was definitely when you were talking about Tufton Street there, I thought to myself, oh, I'm sure someone would. They clip this bit up. They say PSUK. What is this conspiracy theory? Tufton Street are all Nazis. I thought Tufton Street were just neoliberals. But I think it's fair to say, you know.

People can have political expedience and sort of share positions with each other, even though they don't agree on everything, which is a really long way of saying, so what on earth does Nigel Farage get out of this allegiance to Putin? How is it expedient to him? What does he gain from it?

Hi, this is Pod Save the UK. I'm Coco Khan.

I just love lunch.

And while you're at it, pod listeners, don't forget that you can see our lovely faces on our YouTube page. So last week we had a lovely comment from one of our listeners. Glass Spider wrote in that Nish looks like his night never ended. He just slopped over into the next day.

You don't have to justify your appearance.

Personally, I think it's a compliment. I mean, these days with the closing hours in London, if you had an all-nighter, good for you, mate. Share the recommendations.

So something we've been wrestling with here on Pod Save the UK is how much we should be engaging with the far-right rhetoric, bollocks, whatever you want to call it, and whether we should spend some time in a new facts versus fuckwits section, which would be designed to debunk the disinformation diarrhea.

Many of you do want us to be careful about giving too much attention to the disinformation. Catherine said, Ridley said, Ridley said,

So there's actually a helpful formula that we can all follow, says Israel. It's known as the truth sandwich. So step one, lead with the real story. Step two, highlight the problem. Maybe here you can do some myth busting. And step three, come back to the real story and what can be done.

In practice, I'm just thinking, what could it be? Okay, article says Bob Dylan's never made a bad song. Okay, so that's the story. Now, what's the problem? However, that article was written by Nish Kumar, who is famously a Bob Dylan evangelist and cannot see clearly on these things. So come back to the real story. Bob Dylan hasn't had a good album for many years.

Sure, sure, sure, sure. That's simply untrue.

I just came here to do it.

I wish I didn't take this route now. I was just trying to make a joke. But anyway, we are serving up our first spicy truth sandwich for you. And as it turns out, the fuckwittery doesn't just come from the right, from the Tories and from reform. So here's the context and truth of the matter, because we should always start there.

So context is Britain is experiencing a mental health crisis, which is particularly affecting young people. NHS data shows that between April and October last year, there was a 10% increase in children across England needing treatment for severe mental health crisis.

But facts don't get in the way of opinions for many former prime ministers, it seems. This week, Tony Blair gave his two cents on the rising demand for mental health support on the podcast Jimmy's Jobs for the Future.

Right. Challenges of life sounds like, oh, had a few bad dates. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's not like, oh, I live in a country that's in economic decline and is slowly but surely getting taken over by toxic politics. And actually, funnily enough... I feel a little bit down. That's a logical conclusion to draw in terms of your feeling of well-being or your optimism for the future.

No, absolutely. And like, you know... It's so funny, isn't it? Because we've been talking about AI today and about how, like, you know, this idea has kind of captured our political establishment, if you want to use that language, and about how, like, it can fix everything.

But it's somehow the idea that, like, there's been developments in the study of mental health and that people realise now that certain conditions aren't a fact of life and they can be helped. Oh, no, that's all, that's wah, wah, wah. All the millennials are crying about, like, they can't take any stress. What? What? I don't understand it. Do we like science or we don't like science?

What do we like here?

Yeah.

And just a reminder that if you're feeling any struggles with your mental health, please don't listen to Tony Blair. Make the most of the NHS that we're all paying for and is ours and we should be all fighting for. Talk to your GP. You can receive a referral for therapy. We've also included mental health resources in the show notes.

Don't forget to follow at Pod Save the UK on Instagram, TikTok and Twitter. And if you want more of us, make sure you've subscribed to our YouTube channel.

Thanks to senior producer James Tindale and assistant producer Mae Robson.

Thanks to our engineer, Duke Vasani.

So does that mean anything's changed on the safety front then from the concerns that we heard last year?

And remember to hit subscribe for new shows on Thursdays on Amazon, Spotify or Apple or wherever you get your podcasts.

Someone actually had to say to me recently, you should just be careful about the range of actions that you do because you might start to offend people. So I think I'm safe with this one.

And with the far-right surging all over the world, we'll also be chatting to systems theorist and investigative journalist Nafis Ahmed about how to fight it.

So I've just asked ChatGPT and apparently it can. AI can revitalise the UK by driving economic growth, improving public services and advancing sustainability through innovation, efficiency and strategic investment in technology, digital skills and arsenic. I made that last bit up. Just labour the point that you can't trust them.

Prime Minister Keir Starmer there announcing his AI gambit to the media. So what's the fuss all about? The government is calling it the AI Opportunities Action Plan. And as we heard there, Starmer is hoping artificial intelligence will turbocharge growth, which is a marked evolution from last year's rhetoric, where former Prime Minister Rishi Sunak was most focused on AI safety.

Well, I mean, like, you know, perhaps I could imagine if there was some Some system in which, you know, the uses of AI in medicine, for example, okay, that seems justified. In logistics, okay, that seems justified. But if it's like, I was reading a story the other day about how a number of the top cookbooks on Amazon are actually written by AI and the faces and the names are created by AI.

And if you actually cook any of the recipes, they're all disgusting. They're all like sushi shepherd's pie and they require 50 sticks of butter or whatever. That doesn't seem like a good use of a bottle of water. Yeah. So, yeah, I would be very open to seeing something very tight in how we use it. But I just I don't feel confident that will happen, given everything you've said.

This is at least an evolution of last week's things are going to get worse mantra, but it is a strange tone for the government to set. As all week long, front pages of websites and newspapers have been cluttered with headlines decrying the government's stance on winter fuel payments for pensioners.

I think that's sort of what we really want to get to the heart of in this episode is like, how do you decouple the politicking from like, actually, what is the issues and how can we make them better? So I've got a quote here from the chief inspector of prisons, Charlie Taylor. He welcomed the early release scheme in his annual report that was released this week.

But he also said they are not in themselves a solution to decades of underinvestment and inertia in a vital public protection service. So his report draws on 72 reports also covering prisons, young offenders institutions, court custody and immigration detention centres. I'm going to play you a clip actually. So here he is speaking to BBC Breakfast.

David, what do you make of that? Do you agree with that assessment? And just generally, what are your thoughts on the state of prisons as they are now?

One of the things you mentioned earlier, you talked about like, you know, in America, they give these really long sentences, you know, longer than a lifetime. Where our sentences are going up, getting longer. I think there's a public perception that that must put people off committing crimes.

So we spoke about this on the podcast last week, but Nish, what are your thoughts on this?

Because I think it's also worth saying, and forgive me if this is a bit obvious, but when you hear the prisons are full, you might think there's more crime, but there isn't.

There's less crime. I've got a note here that a report for the Howard League for Penal Reform pointed out that the prison population in 1991 was about 40,000. That's less than half of today's number. So what's going on? There's less crime, but more prison. I mean...

But that's what Timpson... Yeah, exactly.

No, I'm just curious, you know, about... So, you know, the prison's minister, James Timpson, there was a lot of hope around his appointment because his company did employ ex-offenders and was essentially providing a model for a better way to rehabilitate prisoners. I did have some questions about it, though.

I've recently discovered that, like, as part of the scheme, he wouldn't take anyone under 25. And I just wanted to, A, get your thoughts on that.

I didn't even realise I didn't even realise how much I agreed with that honestly every time my 21 year old mates yes I have them are like oh I'm going on some dates I'm like oh I'm dating some children that must be hard for you

Hi, this is Pod Save the UK. I'm Coco Kahn.

A lot more, yeah. I'll be honest, when I heard that the Timpson model, which I thought was brilliant, excluded men under 25, I just thought, well, what will happen to them? What will we do with them? Have you got any solutions for younger men?

But would that pass the Daily Mail test? Because I recall reading in the Daily Mail test some outrage about women prisoners who would be released for a day to go and work in McDonald's. Fair enough, they want to earn some money, they want to get some skills, get some job experience for when they come out. The Daily Mail seemed to be livid about this.

The idea you'd be served your Big Mac by someone who was an offender seemed to really upset them. Do you really think it could happen?

You're not going to McDonald's at all. Soz.

No, good. Well, you did it for me because I was going to do it.

Yeah, for sure. And thank you, Peter Sinnott as well. You're very welcome. Please look out for the Prison Reform Trust and the work you're doing.

Great.

OK, so it's that time again, Tory leadership. Since we spoke to you last, we've had two eliminations. The best known but least popular candidate, Priti Patel, was eliminated last Wednesday. And the least known and least likely candidate, Mel Stride, was knocked out on Tuesday afternoon.

And the briefing against each other has begun. So Stephen Swinford of The Times writes that supporters of Badenoch claimed at the weekend that she was the victim of a dirty tricks campaign designed to push her out of the leadership contest.

They suggested that some right-wing MPs who want to see Jenrick elected had lent their votes to Cleverley in the first round of voting in a bid to undermine Badenoch. This was emphatically rejected by the Jenrick camp, who said that the claims were, and we quote, pathetic and desperate.

What is it about it that makes you zone out so strongly and quickly? I think it's just the sort of...

Have you not found that he's looking a little American at the moment?

Well, he seems to be releasing all these photos with these signs of people holding up signs behind him, like Jenrick for leader or whatever. Right, okay, yeah. It's all quite, well, it sounds American.

Also, it's hard to shake the, well, this is pointless feeling because we know what the Conservatives are like. If you become leader, I give you 18 months before someone stabs you straight in the back and then they spin you around and straight in the heart. That's how it works. I mean, look, on the bright side, you will get a bit of a Tory break now because...

I mean, they've sort of said everything they need to say. The next we'll hear from them is at the party conference. That's where the leaders will sequentially give speeches to Conservative Party members. I'm sure we'll cover that. But until then, you can have a little rest, have a little sit down.

So, introducing Crooked's new social media channel, where we put real news back in your feed, so doom scrolling just got a little bit healthier.

Now, last week, we updated you all on the results of the Grenfell inquiry. Please do go back and check it out if you haven't already. But to keep it brief, it found that decades of failure and systematic dishonesty were the root causes of the disaster. Never one to avoid a chance at airbrushing his legacy, the former PM, Lord David Cameron, took to X writing...

The report is clear that fire safety and building safety regulations were explicitly excluded from the coalition government's greatly needed red tape reviews, given the importance we place on safety and build quality. Indeed, the coalition and post-2015 government took steps to increase fire safety regulation.

Sadly, Lord Cameron is not the only former PM to be saying some really just awful egregious things on this. Tony Blair, who we've previously referred to on this show as being in his second villain era, was also out and about.

And finally, this weekend, I had a joyous Saturday reading an excerpt from Diane Abbott's memoir, A Woman Like Me, published in The Guardian, which explores her life story, including her relationship with the independent MP and former leader of the Labour Party, Jeremy Corbyn. I mean, the book sounds amazing. I've just bought a copy. It has not yet arrived.

I'm really excited to read about this iconic politician, but I am going to spoil a little bit. I just want to read you some of the quotes about her relationship with Jeremy Corbyn. As I say, please do read it in full. I was gripped from the first word. And it says, around that time, I began to realise that realistically, ours was not a match made in heaven. We were two different, Abbott writes.

Once, after I lamented our lack of social activity as a couple, he pondered it for a few days and told me we were going out. Feeling excited, I dressed up nicely and we bundled into the car. I had no idea where we were going. Perhaps a nice wine bar? It turned out Jeremy's idea of a social outing was to drive me to Highgate Cemetery and proudly show me the tomb of Karl Marx.

Look, I'm not... It's not about the choice of date for me. Literally this year on Valentine's, I went to an exhibition exploring the exploitation of women's labour in the home and the main exhibit was just a woman screaming on a loop. I consider that romantic. That's my love language. Let's talk about equal distribution of household labour. So it's not a judgment on the day.

It's more the surprise element. At what point was she like, oh, this is a cemetery? You know, when I was thinking social, I was thinking, want to be around alive people? Didn't know I needed to say alive. Didn't know that was, you know, that's the bit I absolutely love.

It's all online as well, isn't it?

Well, obviously I'm heavily biased, but I have seen the show and it is fantastic and probably libelous. It's definitely not libelous.

Was she dressed up? Was she in stilettos? It's a beautiful scene and I'm sure the book is going to be full of great anecdotes so I'm looking forward to reading it. And that's it. Thanks for listening to Pod Save the UK. And we want to hear your thoughts. Email us at psuk at reducedlistening.co.uk or drop us a voice note on WhatsApp. Our number is 07494933444.

Yeah.

Internationally, that's plus447494933444.

Pod Save the UK is a reduced listening production for Crooked Media.

Our theme music is by Vasilis Fotopoulos.

The executive producers are Anushka Sharma, Dan Jackson and Madeleine Herringer with additional support from Ari Schwartz.

So if the government is taking the chance to implement some unpopular policies, we thought we'd help with some of our own contributions. So let's start with the realistic, a bit of crystal ball gazing for Keir Starmer's foretold things getting worse. We've already discussed some potential new taxes, rejigging inheritance tax, that would be unpopular.

Capital gains tax changes, that would be unpopular. We had Paul Johnson from the IFS come onto this couch and make a very good case for changing up council tax banding.

I mean, what else could they do that would really suck for them?

Okay.

Okay, so I'm going to say something and I know I'm going to outrage many people.

How about this? Dog owners. I think you should have a license to own a dog. Oh my God.

I'm sorry, but there's too many badly behaved dogs, Nish. People don't know how to train their dogs and look after their dogs. I'm just saying, I think you need a license.

I know.

Okay, all right, listen, let's be more egalitarian. How about licenses for all pets? Cats, rabbits, parrots.

Yeah, yeah. Anyway, there you go, Keir Starmer. If you want to ruin your standing with the British public, that's a policy for you.

But maybe adjacent?

Okay.

Yeah, full Brazil. That sounds like something I asked for at the Sabbath. I don't know which you should be saying that.

Okay.

Yeah.

Good and welcome. Okay. I've got one.

I went to see the new Beetlejuice yesterday. Shouldn't have been made. Ban reboots. What do you think?

Yeah?

It is a spicy show. And if you would like to see a legally caveated show, you should absolutely get tickets. It's running around the country to end in November.

But there has to be some sort of board, the reboot board, and you submit to them why you're rebooting it. And I think you have to sufficiently prove that you will add something.

Okay, all right, fine.

Yes.

I know we've been a bit silly here, but listeners, if you have an unpopular policy you think might make the UK a better place, let us know. Email us at psuk at reducedlistening.co.uk. And if you've not already, don't forget to subscribe so that you can hear it in next week's episode.

This week, over 1,700 prisoners in England and Wales have been let out early after serving 40% of their sentence as opposed to the usual 50% in an attempt to ease overcrowding in our critically full prisons.

The new temporary measure excludes people with sentences for violent crimes over four years, sex offences and certain domestic abuse-related crimes.

So how has our justice system become so broken and could more radical and, dare we say it, unpopular changes help fix it? Pia Sinha is CEO of the Prison Reform Trust and a former prison governor. And David Navarro is host and producer of Delinquent Nation on YouTube, in which he interviews fellow ex-prisoners. Welcome to you both. Thank you. Thank you for having us.

But anyway, let's get into the political news of the week, where Keir Starmer asks, well, who wants to be popular anyway?

I do just want to pick up on this early release. David, actually, some of the people being released early have nowhere to go. Last month, prison inspectors found that a quarter of prisoners at HMP Nottingham released under that scheme were homeless, leading some returning to the prison system. So what are some other challenges that people face when they get released?

And later, we're joined by two very special guests to discuss the challenges facing our prison system. But first, Nish is back. Return of the Mac. Where have you been?

Obviously, David, you interview ex-offenders on your YouTube channel. That resignation that Pia talked about there, is that something you've encountered as well?

So in general, the sense I get from you is that the early release scheme, you think it's good, it's positive.

And also just to add on to that, are there like out of bounds areas? You know, you were talking about the centrism of the whole and you pick from everything to get the best of everything. It's hard to stomach that like a fascist would have good ideas. But is that central to the system of centrism?

That is so bananas. Such a large majority, arguably squandered. So what is going on here? Well, there's obviously no one single reason, but there's been a story that has been leading the Westminster press that may cast some sort of light on it.

Nothing's off limits.

Got you, got you.

I keep going back to the thing of what is it? This is still this nebulous concept. You know, James Cleverley calls himself a centrist. Okay, Starmer doesn't call himself a centrist, but as we've discussed here, probably is a centrist. Is everybody a centrist?

It just scares me when you don't know what it is. Do you know what I mean? The point of principles is that it is a barometer in which you can use it to assess things. When something is so slippery... You know, I find it unnerving in a personal way.

It's the old Goldilocks, right? Not too hot, not too cold, just right.

And later, we promise there will be some hope as Labour MP Nadia Whittam joins us to tell us about what she's working on, the things we can look forward to now that Parliament is finally back in action.

So can I infer from this that you're optimistic about, you know, the next four years?

So Sue Gray has now been replaced by someone called Morgan McSweeney. He was formerly the executive director of Labour Together, and that's the Labour-aligned think tank that has kind of been credited for bringing Labour to power. It's also been credited with the shift more to the right.

Thank you. Wow, what a fascinating conversation.

Yeah, no, absolutely. And I mean... My instinct is I still don't trust it. Don't trust it. But it's been interesting to sort of hear about even just the long legacy of it and how people who would not consider themselves centrists are centrists and those who claim to be centrists don't necessarily exhibit the qualities of it.

Each week, Ben Rhodes and Tommy Vitor break down global news, share insider stories from their time in the White House, and bring on experts to explain what really matters.

New episodes drop every Wednesday in the Pod Save the World feed or on YouTube. And for extra election deep dives, catch Ben's special series every Saturday until November 5th, where he's breaking down what's at stake for foreign policy between US presidential nominees Kamala Harris and Donald Trump.

Labour Together was created following Ed Miliband's defeat in 2015 and is generally considered to be centre-right in the Labour Party.

Much needed indeed. I'm looking forward to it. Joining us now is Nadia Whittam, Labour MP for Nottingham East since 2019. She's been outspoken on the cost of living, the climate crisis, care work and LGBTQ plus rights.

Hi, this is Pod Save the UK and I'm Coco Kahn.

I have to give you my tip, right? So basically, if you're in a situation and you're talking to an MP and you don't know their name, you go, so sorry, what's your name again? And then they'll say, I'm Roger Moore. It's not Roger Moore.

It was the only thing that came to my mind.

And so then they say, oh, I'm Roger Moore. And you go, oh, Roger. I mean, of course I knew you were Roger. It was the last name. It was the last name. And then you, you know, you finesse it. Anyway, you can have that for free.

You'd call him Matt. You'd say John. You'd just guess.

Oh, apparently we've had a note from the producer. There's a Robbie Moore, the Conservative MP for Keeley and Ilkley. Then maybe you're thinking of him. Who's that and where's that?

Yes. You tell him.

I'll be dead. Will I be dead?

I can assure you Nadia, if I'm spending £1,000 a day, I'm dead in a week. Trust me on that.

I mean, listening to you now, Nadia, it sounds like there's hopeful things, low-hanging fruit that can be won, things can be changed. That sounds great because I'll be honest, sitting here outside of the party, we're coming up to 100 days of this new government. It feels like the notes are quite doomy, a bit sort of expect the worst, things aren't going to get better.

Is that how it feels inside the camp?

See, this is my concern, right? It's that we all know that just because it's leading the Westminster pages doesn't mean it actually is the biggest issue in politics. We know that. We call it the bubble, don't we? For a reason. Who's in? Who's out? Who's up? Who's down? It's all a bit gossipy. And so there is a part of me that feels like, are we sure we're just not using Sue Gray as a scapegoat?

You mentioned the far-right riots there, and there were many different things that happened to cause this hellish month of intimidation on the streets. But one thing that was part of it was disinformation on social media. Now, you are one of the most popular politicians on social media. I can imagine that is extremely challenging.

Do you think this reflects where politics should be, that we should have politicians... engaging with social media properly in order to curb the more malignant forces that we see coming through.

Are they all called John?

That's the other one.

I mean, reform are massive on TikTok. Genuinely massive. It's quite chilling. Yeah. Is it the new frontier?

This idea that like, the reason the polling is so bad is because Sue Gray didn't send out press releases about the good stuff that Labour's doing. Doesn't that make it seem like, oh, Labour's been doing loads of great stuff that we don't hear about and it's Sue Gray's fault? Are we sure that's the case? I don't know how I feel about this story.

I'm really glad to hear you say that because it's been a big bugbear of mine is this idea that the working class are more racist. That really winds me up. You know, even if you just, just by the crudest measure of like mixed families, you tend to see them more in working class communities. So working class communities are more diverse.

I find it, I think you're absolutely right that like it can, sometimes we can't solve these issues because we wrap it all up in snooty class politics and it's really unfair and it doesn't solve anything and doesn't make anything better. Yeah.

Well, that's a beautiful place to leave it. Thank you so much, Nadia. I'm sorry you're not having a good time, but listen, work is never fun and you're doing the work. So thank you for that.

Thank you for joining us on Podsafe UK.

And I think as well, you know, certainly a factor in why people are worried is that we still don't really know who Keir Starmer is. You know, what does he represent? What could we expect? What is Starmerism? But luckily for us, our next guest is someone who has a bit of an inkling.

Wow, wow, wow. The person before him to live in that place, presumably the one who left it as a crack den, was Theresa May. I mean... I just don't buy it.

You didn't feel comforted by him saying, I paid for it, but I don't know how much I paid.

I think that that man is... That is fiscal responsibility, no, Nish? That's what we want in this country. Oh, my God.

I saw a picture of Theresa May in her flat. It looked absolutely lovely when she was in 10 Downing Street. So this was before Johnson took over. And I had this moment of like, oh, my God, she had some of the same coffee tables as me.

I know. How chilling is that? I got mine secondhand, to be fair. It's from Habitat.

So that's it. Thanks for listening to Pod Save the UK and we want to hear your thoughts. Email us at psuk at reducelistening.co.uk.

Pod Save the UK is a reduced listening production for Crooked Media.

Our theme music is by Vasilis Fotopoulos.

The executive producers are Anishka Sharma and Madeleine Herringer, with additional support from Ari Schwartz.

Just think, the English language is a very beautiful thing. There's so many other ways to describe stuff. Wouldn't you agree, darling?

Yeah, and everyone always compares him to Malcolm Tucker. But how many Malcolm Tuckers can there be? I constantly hear this.

It's so boring.

That's Rishi Sunak, former prime minister and leader of the opposition, shooting at an open goal.

I think as well, Morgan McSweeney occupies a particular space. We'd say the centre-right of the Labour Party. I think it's fair to say we're not on the centre-right of our own politics. Do you think that this signifies a change in what we can expect? Because also, I would say, I don't know what to expect from Keir Starmer. What is Starmerism?

That's so interesting because obviously your new book is about centrism. And I was under the impression that Keir Starmer is a centrist. Have I got that wrong?

Well, actually, yeah, let's talk about centrism. What is it?

The hand mole man of politics.

Does that mean that centrism, because my thought about it was that it's constantly relative. It's always moving depending on what's going on. You found that not to be right. It is absolute in that it has certain principles.

Yes.

Oh, absolutely. I mean, the gall of this man to be like, oh, the Labour government aren't doing enough. You were part of a party that was in government. You had a ministerial role in the Home Office. You did nothing. You did absolutely nothing whatsoever. And it really breaks my heart because at the end of the day... the people that are going to suffer are going to be women and girls, right?

And I'm sorry to say that whether it's grooming in churches or schools or football teams or in gangs like this, it's access and knowing you'll bloody get away with it. So we also need to talk about rape conviction rates being astronomically low, but these aren't the conversations they want to have. Instead, they just want to play on just old school, horrible, racist, xenophobic tropes.

I just hope to God that everyone saw what happened in America because these tactics they're using on the UK, they've already done them. They've already tried them. So I really hope Sorry to our American listeners that your pain we can learn from, you know, and find a way around this.

So after the break, we're joined by a friend of the show, Zoe Grunewald, to talk about the political implications of Musk's interventions.

Also, we should say this is not a news story. These abuse cases, they go back to 1997. There have been several inquiries across the country and there was a national inquiry led by Alexis Jay. The recommendations she made in 2022 were not implemented, however, by the Conservative government.

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Welcome back. We're only eight days into 2025 and everything's on fire. Feeling hopeful?

Hopeful wasn't the word I would go for. You know, okay, here's a positive spin. I'm feeling motivated. Good. Because there's a lot to do. Yes. You know?

It sounded like da-da-da-da.

Fecal matter in a drain-ish?

Okay. Just wanted to check. Yeah, I'm not shitting in the shower.

But he's not going to stop. I mean, like you said, he's developed not far off an obsession with Keir Starmer in particular. He calls himself the great troll or troll in chief or something like that. You know, he's got a bit between the teeth. I mean, what is Starmer going to do about it?

Isn't that a disco tune? I'm really showing my lack of cultural awareness.

I'm so glad you brought that up because I think if you weren't watching closely, you could have easily missed that story. And that story is huge. And like you say, has enormous impacts. Just to return to Musk, though, he is filling the news agenda. How are Labour going to stabilise their comms in this chaos?

I mean, that is the voice we need to hear more of. Actual experts on violence against women and girls, like committed champions of victims. Instead, all we get is men with their puffed out chests. They're just arguing like, no, I'm the protector of women and girls. No, I'm the protector of women and girls.

I mean, it's so galling hearing about reform as the main... threat, which I know is true, but it's just so frustrating, you know, especially now with their talking about themselves as champions of women and, you know, violence against women and girls, but they're being their concern when they have an MP who is a woman beater.

Oh, great.

Like women and girls are being let down across the board in this country and all across the world. It's just, it's really, really upset me. And she's absolutely right. We should be hearing the victims' voices much more in this.

So just thinking about the story where Musk criticized Farage and said, you know, reform needs a new leader. Do you think that could actually happen?

Hi, this is Pod Save the UK. I'm Coco Card.

Nish, it sounds like you've had a pretty eventful new year. Let me read you a headline from GB News. Nish Kumar sparks BBC hootenanny switch-off threats with unnecessary politics swipe. Hugely unfunny. What happened?

I mean, how chilling is that? How horrendous is that? I mean, surviving what they went through, that was already enough. That was already monumental. And now to actually hear that a victim is saying, oh, did we not do enough? It's ingrained, it's endemic, the misogyny. And I would just say, because I've been thinking a lot about this,

which we think is a perfect time to point you towards Strict Scrutiny. It's another crooked podcast and it's fantastic. So the hosts, Leah, Melissa and Kate, break down what presidential power in the US actually looks like and how we've seen checks on it from sometimes very unexpected places. Tune in for this timely episode right now. It's on the Strict Scrutiny feed.

So just when we thought the start of the new year couldn't get any worse, Mark Zuckerberg has hit us with an absolute bombshell. In a bizarre video posted on his personal Facebook page, the social media mogul announced that Meta would be scrapping its fact-checking service, its already quite rubbish fact-checking service, and replacing it with a community notes system. Sounds familiar? Yeah.

What's with the chain? Right, that's what I'm saying. It's that. It gave me the cult vibe.

The problem with misogynistic culture is that the people that participate in it don't ever think they're a misogynist. Even in like other parts of the world where it's tremendously unsafe to be a woman, where you're deprived of your rights in the public life, in education, in all sorts of places. The patriarchs that run that would never say, I hate women. They would say, we love women.

Oh, absolutely. I mean, Elon Musk talking about migration as a massive threat. Famously, he was quite pro-migration, particularly high-skilled Indian tech workers.

And someone that's likely to be rejoicing about this diminished moderation policy is our least favourite right-wing dickhead. I still... I think it's fair to say the least, or certainly least at the moment. It's just such a crowded field. And we definitely really dislike Andrew Tate, who, like Robert Jenrick and Nigel Farage, is keen to play up to his dude-man-bro-child shit of Musk & Co.

We protect women. We're just allowing women to fulfill their whatever idea they have of womanhood is. Fundamentally, the thing that unites those cultures and some of the misogynists involved in this conversation here in Britain is this deep belief that they know better than women. They will speak on behalf of women. It just makes me so furious, Nish, honestly.

He's announced a new acronym to political party, the Britain Restoring Underlying Values Party. Yep, that's right. It's BRUV for those playing at home.

And presumably he's continuing his narrative where he talks about how he's the saviour of Western values, which I would assume means the saviour of Western women, which is maybe contradictory to the charges he's currently facing, which include trafficking. But I suppose he says that's just a string to your bow in the world of right wing angry men.

But I don't suppose it even really matters if he actually thinks he's going to win a seat. As long as he can be, as you say, part of the conversation, be an agitator. And look, Tommy Robinson is.

I think the fan base wouldn't like it either.

There was a part of me that when I did see this story, I thought to me, go on, try it. Because I just want to see the moment of Elon Musk Entering Liverpool town centre, city centre. Getting egg fried by a bunch of Scelsers. I mean, I'd love that. Please, please, please, please.

But what it does speak to is, number one, this story was revealed by Elon Musk's dad, Errol Musk, who apparently now is a legitimate force in politics. That is sort of stomach churning.

Don't make promises you can't keep. Exactly, exactly, exactly. But thank you for joining us on Pod Save the UK, Zoe. Thank you.

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Some other casual UK-centric Musk misinformation shared on his ex-page in just the last couple of days – please stop, please leave us alone – includes a false claim that Bill Gates donated millions to the BBC. The Gates Foundation has donated to BBC Media Action – but that is a BBC charity. It provides training across the world. It's not connected with the BBC's editorial output.

There was also a falsehood that George Soros is paying off The Guardian to post negative articles about him. I am no longer staff at The Guardian, but I'm still friends with many people that work there. And I can assure you, No one needs to pay them to say negative things about you. You do it yourself, Elon Musk.

And there's also a suggestion that the UK's civilisation could end due to a fall in our birth rate because there's nothing like a self-appointed champion of women and girls talking about how women should have babies they don't really want. He's also demanded that far-right activist Tommy Robinson be released from jail, calling him a political prisoner. He is, in fact, in jail for contempt of court.

OK, well, let me fill the audience in on what GB News was so upset by. So Jules Holland asked you if there was anything you wanted to look back on. And you said, well, the Conservative Party lost the election and I was rock hard for a week, Jules. And at 39, that's quite hard to come by.

Mm hmm. And of course, this shit, it just dominates the agenda. So when Keir Starmer really wanted to be talking about his big plans for the NHS on Monday, he had to put out the musk fire.

It really is. It's such a challenge. You know, I'm really torn about it as well. You know, I always think sunlight is the greatest disinfectant. You know, these toxic ideas. Let's engage with them. Let's defeat them, if you will, by showing that they're false, that they're made up. But at the same time, we do give them credence. And there is just a thick conversation about like...

if we spend our time fighting them, then we don't get to make the case for the progressive world that we want. We don't have the breath to do it.

And so those ideas, those really strong ideas about redistribution of wealth and actually tackling violence against women and girls and not just using women's rights as a political football, those things never actually get heard because we're just in this sort of loop, this whack-a-mole loop with the far right.

So I don't know what the answer is, but my concern is that these ideas are being disseminated far and wide. And to not have some kind of counter, that does scare me just instinctively.

Yes.

Absolutely. There's not enough conversation about the money that's at stake. And that is the basis of journalism and the basis of every good true detective show. You know, when you want to know what's going on, follow the money. And the money at stake is huge. The online safety bill that we've been talking about that the Labour government are hoping to push through.

We talked about the fining mechanism. The fining mechanism can demand up to 10% of global turnover. Not just the money that he makes in the UK. Global. That is huge sums. And I'm not surprised, therefore, he's fighting tooth and claw and using every dirty trick in the book to just essentially get into bed with people who he knows will never seek to regulate him.

So one thing we haven't spoken about is the thing that is wrapped up in all of this and ultimately the toxic undercurrent that dividers like Musk thrive on. And that's racism. So traditionally, Musk's favorite party has been reform.

But in a surprise turn on Sunday, Musk said that Nigel Farage is unfit to lead the party following Farage's failure to endorse Musk's suggestions of releasing Tommy Robinson.

My air horn sound.

Now, like any good conspiracy theory, there is a kernel of truth in this. In 2009, the CPS dismissed some cases in Rotherham when CPS lawyers, in all their wisdom, decided that the victims would not be reliable or credible to a court.

No, absolutely. And I think it is worth saying that sexual abuse and exploitation is not confined to Pakistani men. Obviously, there has been numerous cases involving Pakistani men. There have also been other cases involving other men. But a 2020 Home Office report covering England, Scotland and Wales found that the majority of child sexual abuse gangs are made up of white men under 30.

But these high profile cases in Rotherham, Rochdale, Telford and more have fuelled the perception that this is a particularly Asian problem.

Right. So not going to be okay then. Hi, this is Podsafe the UK. I'm Coco Kahn.