Connor

Yep, it's good.

I close my eyes. Only for a moment and the moment's gone. My dog is dust in the wind. My little popper is still dust in the wind.

Jesus! Come on, man!

I close my eyes only for a moment and the moment's gone. My asshole is dust in the wind. Laughter

Hello. Where did you take me?

Yeah, it's cool. Come on, let's go. It's going to be a great time. It's a campfire.

Wow.

Yeah.

Fire away, buddy. Hey, I watch on YouTube, and I was curious why Si is the only one in the duck call room that has the full-blown headset with the mic on it instead of the one that sits on the table. And I would also like to know if Si has ever moved up to getting a smartphone or if he's still got that old flip phone.

$49.98.

This episode includes discussions of murder, assault, and suicide. Consider this when deciding how and when you'll listen. For mental health support, visit Spotify.com slash resources. Is there a place near you with an especially dark past? Every time you drive by it, someone always brings up the stories. Maybe it's an old psychiatric hospital that played host to inhumane experiments.

The graves haven't gone out of their way to look for more fragments, but every time they've stumbled on a new one, Robert has brought it to the lab at the University of Indianapolis, where they're stored for safekeeping. The remains are believed to belong to at least 12 victims of a suspected serial killer who owned Fox Hollow Farm before the graves and who they believe still haunts the grounds.

Identifying new victims tends to attract the most media attention. Jeff says it's how a lot of people judge the success of his investigation, but it's only part of what drives him to continue.

Why would someone deny the remains of a loved one? How many victims haven't been identified? Will this case ever see a criminal conviction? More after this. Hamilton County Coroner Jeff Jellison and his team revived the investigation to identify the victims at Fox Hollow Farm in 2022. Ever since, they've been working to right some of the wrongs of the past.

Jeff says that some of the family members were given their loved ones' remains back in the 90s, just not in the way you might expect.

Jeff hopes his office can take ownership of the past and rebuild trust with families. He remembers how, on one occasion, a victim's sister refused her brother's remains. Jeff says she was still so hurt by the actions of officials all those years ago. She couldn't shake the memory of her mother being handed a paper bag with a raw bone inside of it.

Welcome to Serial Killers, a Spotify podcast. I'm Janice Morgan. You might recognize me as the voice behind the investigative docuseries Broken and the true crime podcast Fear Thy Neighbor. I'll be your host for the next few weeks, and I'm thrilled to be here.

After being told no, Jeff's team worked with the funeral home to have her brother's remains cremated at no charge. They also worked with the funeral home to donate an urn and a small plot of land in a family cemetery so they could be put to rest.

There are others who have stepped forward to support as well. An organization called He Knows Your Name has built an ossuary and a monument at a local cemetery for any remains that go unclaimed for whatever reason. The victims' names will be engraved on the monument as they're known. Meanwhile, the search for additional remains is still underway.

According to Jeff, back in the 90s, the majority were found in three concentrated locations on Fox Hollow. None of the bones had been buried very deep. Most were scattered and covered in brush. Some appeared to have been burned and or smashed. Jeff doesn't believe there are any common denominators between the three locations, reasons why they might have been chosen.

But he suspects that more bones are out there, dispersed even farther by animals. Jeff's team has been back on site with cadaver dogs, but he says they're not quite ready to perform another excavation. They have plenty to keep them busy. Building on the forensic work of the 90s, Jeff and his team have now found 12 unique DNA profiles.

That's 12 victims, three of whom remain unidentified as of this recording. Jeff says his plea has been the same since day one.

To help us tell today's story, we interviewed Hamilton County Coroner Jeff Jellison, the man responsible for the latest investigation to identify the victims at Fox Hollow Farm. We're so grateful for his time and expertise. Stay with us. Hi, Connor.

CODIS stands for Combined DNA Index System. It's a national database of profiles that helps law enforcement identify victims and suspects. When Jeff and his team got a call from a woman whose brother went missing in the 80s, they took a swab of her DNA and entered it into the system. It turned up a match on a set of remains discovered in Las Vegas, Nevada.

Jeff hopes to serve the maximum eight years as Hamilton County Coroner. But with thousands of remains still waiting to be tested, he says this investigation will likely extend well beyond that. Who knows how many more victims were killed on Fox Hollow Farm. And then, of course, there are the dozens of other suspicious death cases believed to have ties to Herb Baumeister.

Those bodies of gay men found dumped in rural areas of Indiana and Ohio in the years before Baumeister moved in. Like we said, there's never been a criminal conviction in any case with ties to Baumeister. And that's partly because he was never interviewed or even detained by police, much less charged.

Instead, Baumeister freely drove to Canada and effectively ended all criminal investigations himself. The circumstantial evidence feels overwhelming. In addition to everything we already covered, we also know that most, if not all, of the disappearances tied to Baumeister happened while his wife and kids were away from Fox Hollow and he was left home alone.

But to this day, no one has found the smoking gun to definitively tie him to a list of victims that has only gotten longer.

So let's talk about what drew you into this case.

Without access to those case folders, we can't officially corroborate that witness account, but it's certainly interesting. While Jeff's investigation is focused on finding those who can help identify the dead, maybe there are also people out there who can bring about another resolution, who saw something that could be useful at Fox Hollow or elsewhere.

You're not from Indiana. You don't have a personal connection. Most of these crimes happened before you were even old enough to walk. So what drew you in?

Jeff said he hadn't had any contact with the individuals maybe most likely to have seen something, the surviving Baumeisters. But something strange happened right before Connor sat down with Jeff for an interview.

Eric Baumeister is Herb's son, the same one who found that skull on Fox Hollow when he was 13. Jeff hadn't had a chance to return Eric's call that day, but Connor followed up later. Jeff had gotten in touch with Eric and they had spoken a few times. Jeff said nothing of much substance had come up yet, but who knows what the future has in store.

What memories could still be unlocked that might just make all the unknowns snap into place. Thanks for tuning in to Serial Killers, a Spotify podcast. We'll be back Monday with another episode. For more information on the Fox Hollow Farm case, we recommend checking out the reporting done by WRTC, the Dayton Daily News, The Advocate, and The New York Times.

Among the many sources we used for this episode, we found them extremely helpful to our research. If you are the biological relative of a missing person and believe they may be connected to the Fox Hollow case, reach out to the Hamilton County Coroner's Office at 317-770-4415. Stay safe out there.

This episode was written and researched by Connor Samson, edited by Mickey Taylor, fact-checked by Laurie Siegel, video edited by Spencer Howard, and sound designed by Alex Button. I'm Janice Morgan.

I think most of us connect to cases where that's true. Like Connor said, the scope of this one is really large, partly because it's many different cases. But we're going to focus in on one of them and start our story with the man responsible for the news notification Connor received.

That's Jeff Jellison. He's the coroner for Hamilton County, Indiana, which is where Fox Hollow Farm is located.

Or a section of woods where people tend to vanish into thin air. Or a house where a string of gruesome murders took place. There's a legal term for these kinds of properties. They're said to be stigmatized or psychologically affected. And in many states, when they go up for sale, the seller is required to disclose certain details if asked, like suspicious deaths and homicides.

It's not that surprising to hear those words come out of Jeff's mouth. one of the most prolific serial killers in the country. Pretty much everyone who comes across this case hears the evidence, the body count, the eyewitness testimony. They all draw the same conclusion. Herb Baumeister is guilty of serial murder.

For almost 30 years, he's been the primary suspect in countless suspicious deaths and disappearances. The reason you might not have heard his name before is because he's never been convicted or even charged, which means technically he's only a suspected serial killer. That said, let's run through some facts.

Between the years 1980 and 1991, the bodies of 11 gay men were found in rural parts of Indiana and western Ohio. All of them young. Most of them had either been dumped over bridges or left in drain pipes, found nude or partially clothed, and strangled to death. None of the resulting homicide investigations get very far for a whole host of reasons.

Blurred jurisdictional lines, a lack of witnesses, bad relations between the police and the queer community. But the bodies suddenly stop in 1991, which happens to be the year that Herb Baumeister, along with his wife and three kids, moves into Fox Hollow Farm. And that's when the disappearances start.

Over the next few years, at least 10 young men in their 20s and 30s go missing from Indianapolis' so-called gay neighborhood, which at the time isn't very big. So if you're a member of the tight-knit community, you know about the disappearances. Posters are hung up looking for the missing. People are warned to stay vigilant. And around this time, two important things happen.

First, a man has a harrowing sexual encounter with someone who says his name is Brian Smart. The encounter happens in an indoor pool area at a massive estate and involves some really scary acts of autoerotic asphyxiation. The experience leaves the man so shaken that he reports it to the police. And second, Herb Baumeister's 13-year-old son finds a human skull in their backyard.

When he brings his mother outside to show her, they find even more remains nearby. Now, believe it or not, this news doesn't immediately reach police. That's because Herb Baumeister tells his wife that the bones likely belong to a cadaver his father once used in his medical practice.

The explanation makes very little sense given his father was an anesthesiologist, but it's enough to stave off an investigation for the moment. Eventually, though, the man who had that scary sexual encounter with another man who called himself Brian Smart sees Brian driving around Indianapolis.

Hyper aware of all the disappearances happening, the man writes down the car's license plate, gives it to police, and that's when officials learn that Brian Smart is actually her Baumeister. Soon enough, investigators are knocking on the door to Fox Hollow Farm.

They tell Herb's wife, Julie, that her husband is a suspect in the disappearance of several gay men in the area, which, as you can imagine, is a lot of information to process all at once. But once again, Herb has an explanation. He says none of it is true. He ties the accusations to an employee at his work who he says has a vendetta against him.

He essentially tells Julie, whatever you do, don't let police on the property. She listens at first, but after a while she has doubts. She and Herb stop talking. Julie files for divorce. And then, one day, while Herb's away, she goes back to the police and invites them to search Fox Hollow Farm once and for all. And that's when they find thousands of bones and bone fragments.

It's a huge break, but it comes with an equally big catch. Police don't arrest Herb. They can't, because he never returns home. Herb's body is found eight days later by some campers in a Canadian park, dead by suicide. He leaves a note behind that mentions plenty, but there's not a single word about any murders or remains. The news makes headlines all across Indiana. Here's Jeff.

Some states even have specific language around reported hauntings and supernatural activity, all of which can affect the asking price. It's the reason Robert and Vicki Graves could afford to buy Fox Hollow Farm, an enormous estate in Indiana with an indoor pool, two libraries, and a five-car garage.

Jeff gets involved 26 years later.

Jeff left law enforcement and started his own private business, which he ran until someone at the coroner's office asked if he'd consider working for them.

Coroner is an elected official in Indiana. They can hold office for up to eight years, two four-year terms. When Connor spoke to him at the end of 2024, Jeff was finishing up the second year of his first term.

Responsibilities for the position vary depending on jurisdiction and state, but they're wide-ranging and include notifying family members of the deceased, interviewing witnesses, testifying in court, collecting evidence, and performing autopsies.

But above all else, the coroner has one role.

The call comes in 2022, a few months into Jeff's first term. Eric tells Jeff he's the relative of Alan Livingston, who's been missing since August of 1993. The Livingstons believe that Alan is among the remains taken from Fox Hollow Farm. They're looking for someone who can help confirm or deny their suspicions.

The original asking price was $2.8 million in 2004, but the Graves reached a deal a few years later for just shy of $1 million. All because, about a decade earlier, police searched the property and found human remains. A bunch of bone fragments scattered about a pocket of woods. It started with a few, then a few hundred, then a few thousand.

Jeff decides to give the university a call. He speaks with Krista Latham, a forensic anthropologist and professor there. She catches Jeff up to speed.

Beginning an investigation would be a monumental undertaking, one that presented many challenges.

For Jeff, step one is to assemble a team. He says the Indiana State DNA lab comes on board first, then the FBI, then a private DNA lab called Othram. Even though it's the only cold case his team has, they know from the start that the investigation will be a long one.

An investigation like this can often involve a lot of hurry up and wait. Even if Fox Hollow wasn't a nearly 30-year-old case, there are plenty of hurdles to cataloging and processing 10,000 remains. DNA testing is more expensive than you might think.

The remains are taken from the University of Indianapolis to DNA labs in batches of about 40 at a time. Each batch takes about a quarter of a year to process. Connor sat down with Jeff in November of 2024.

During the original investigation in the 90s, forensic scientists identified eight individuals from the remains found at Fox Hollow. All were subjects of the Indianapolis missing person cases we already discussed. but those eight represented just a fraction of the total number of victims. Officials believe the remains belong to as many as 25 people.

Since Jeff's team started their work, they've been able to identify a ninth victim, Alan Livingston. It's the name that set Jeff's whole investigation into motion in the first place.

The reason for that phone call was time. It was running out for Alan's mother, Sharon, who'd been diagnosed with terminal cancer.

Hey, how are you today?

Yeah, so I'm 25, married. I got a daughter and about $550,000 in debt, including a mortgage. Just kind of feels like... I have your every dollar out. I've been trying to use it, but even then it just feels really overwhelming trying to see basically no light at the end of the tunnel. So, right. So it's a little, need some guidance based on how to work it out from here.

Sure. Yeah. Um, second year I have, $145,000 home equity line of credit, $14,000 personal line of credit on my wife's side that was transferred over from a student loan, $1,000 credit card, and a $5,000 credit card. So $165,000 total. What was the home equity line for? Consolidating other debt.

um, that we had. And then some of it too, was basically Robin Peter to pay Paul, right? My wife went on here in Ontario, like you got 18 months of maternity leave, right? So, but when you are on 18 months, the subsidy, the subsidy that you get from the government is very low. Like it could be maybe $500 a month. So I was using that to pay for our home expenses, too, on top of that.

12 or 18 months, yeah, is what you get.

Yeah, at the time I was working a commissioned job, right, so I wasn't making a steady income. At a time during that 18 months.

Uh, I make about 80 to a hundred thousand.

About 65-ish, 70.

Yeah, I will get raises for the next three years.

For about six to eight months now.

Yeah, I mean, our take-home pay probably per month is about $8,000.

Uh, yeah, she has a, an investment account here. We call it, it's a tax free savings account, right? And you get to invest and you get to take out tax free, but you're capped at about 6,000 a year to put in.

I have, just based on the podcast. I've thought about getting Financial Peace University. I didn't know if it translated over to Canada, but I'm sure the principals would, too.

Good, good. Hey, I just wanted to kind of get your opinion on what I should do to kind of build wealth for my future. Awesome. Let's hear your situation. Okay, so I'm 18 years old. I own a landscaping company. I bring in about 70 grand during the summer and then 30 to 35 during the winter. Um, my truck is completely paid off and that's about $23,000.

I have a $20,000 camping trailer that I rent out. Um, and that is also paid off. I have a motorcycle that's paid off and then a bunch. Like I have more trailers and stuff like that, and everything's paid off. Goodness gracious.

I will never borrow money.

I am. Yeah.

Gotcha.

That's cool.

It's solo, but I do have a team for lawn care and stuff. And then I design the landscape projects.

Yeah, just about that, give or take, depending on the year. It's gone up every year though. Amazing.

I have about $20,000.

Yeah, let's do that.

I do, but I only have like, I only have a thousand bucks in it. So.

Gotcha. Okay.

550?

Gotcha. Okay.

I do. Yes.

Gotcha. Okay. That's good to know. Yeah, that would be, that would be nice. And then another question, how do I start What's the best way that I can build credit? Because I still don't have a credit card yet.

I was thinking like someday when I do want to buy a house.

Really? Okay.

Okay, that makes sense.

Gotcha. Okay, that makes sense. That's good to know then.

Go for it.

Hello, hello. How are you guys?

Good. Good. So I have a question. Heading into the new year, I want to continue contributing to my retirement about 15%. My company offers 401k where I can contribute either pre-tax or Roth dollars into. And they contribute 12.5% annually. And they don't even offer a match. So they just flat out give 12.5%. I'll take that over a match, man.

Yes. That's awesome. Very generous. And, um, you know, it's a great company, so I really enjoy working with them. So, um, my question is, should I go hard into that? Cause I can contribute, uh, Roth, uh, dollars into the 401k. Uh, I think what they contribute is pre-tax, but, uh,

Should I go hard into that 401k with Roth or should I continue doing a Roth IRA where I'm trying to max that out each year?

Okay. Okay.

Okay. Gotcha. Yeah, because right now, I kind of dabbled in both. I have a Roth IRA with about $4,000 in it, which I can kind of use as an emergency fund, I guess.

Yeah. I mean, that was the plan, too. Do you have any debt? No, I have no debt.

I have a high-yield savings account with some money in there.

Okay. Yeah.

24.

All right. Well, thank you so much. Yeah. Thanks for the question. I was kind of debating between the two accounts. So thank you.

I had moon dust in my eyes. I couldn't see. Yeah, whatever. That's my excuse. I felt like I was going way too far.

The entire road there was like a blind left or right hand turn every five seconds.

Enjoying the scenery.

They sent us shirts.

Seconds per route.

Coca-Cola, ladies and gentlemen. The copper, though.

No!

I didn't have any... There was no volume on my ears, so I didn't hear him say anything. I just got...