David Tamarkin

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Every episode of Things Bakers Know dives deep into a different baked good. It's history and lore...

The American palate just wants crispier and crispier things, and I think that really speaks to where we are right now with home baking, with making pizza at home in American kitchens. A lot of opinions and plenty of tips and tricks.

Pizza is as much if not more so about the dough because it's just bread. And what distinguishes great pizza is the crust and how it's baked, the mouthfeel of it. How oily is it? How crispy is it? How soft is it?

Where do I begin? I mean, I have so many thoughts about this. I think we can check off the easy answers first. So first of all, yes, the type of chocolate, the form of chocolate you use does matter. Along the way, we break bread with the best bakers, historians, and restauranteurs in America. And we always get their expert advice.

And I'm David Tamarkin, King Arthur's editorial director.

Our own Amber Eisler, King Arthur's Director of Baking Education.

Food anthropologist, podcaster, historian, and writer Deborah Friedman.

Every existential thought you have, you get a punch card. Oh my God.

Is that ringing any bells? It's bringing up trauma. Yeah.

If you've ever struggled to stretch your crust or get a good bake on it or get it puffy enough, you know there are a lot of opinions and resources to access for advice. I mean, Reddit alone. Jessica, I don't know if you've been. You said it.

So we're going to cut through the noise. It's time for Ask the Bakers. Maybe you have a baking question that's stumping you. If so, head to kingarthurbaking.com slash podcast to record a voice message. And we may end up using it on the show. That's kingarthurbaking.com slash podcast.

You got to experiment, especially with pizza.

It's a good reward.

I've been waiting for you to give the official term for that soggy center. Oh, I didn't want to. Which is so awful. I know. I know. I don't want you to either, but now I've seen you have to do it.

Oh, it's not pleasant, but it's called, but once I say it, I think it'll get in people's heads and they will know to avoid this. When you have a soggy layer of crust right under your cheese and toppings, it's called a gum line.

A soggy, gross, kind of like a, yeah, a gummy layer. It's really not pleasant and you really want to do everything you can to avoid it. I think all of Jessica's, all of her suggestions are apt. But of course, there's also the other side of the pizza that could be the problem, the underside of it. I mean, what you suggested covers the top of the pizza, but the underside is just as important.

And this is where a baking steel or baking stone is an absolute game changer when it comes to making pizza. It gives you that heat on the bottom that transfers immediately to the bottom of your crust and gets it crispy and cooks it through. Without it, you have problems.

Yeah. So a baking steel and baking stone is just a slab of material and a baking steel is made out of steel. A baking stone is usually clay. Both are great. I prefer steel personally. It gets a little hotter, but either is great. And what you do is you put this material in your oven and you preheat your oven. Our rule of thumb when making pizza is that you preheat 45 minutes to an hour.

And in that time, by the way, you could also prep some of the ingredients. Like Jessica was saying, you could put some vegetables in there to roast them and get them all softened, charred, and release some of that water. But you heat up your pizza stone for 45 minutes to an hour, get it ripping hot. If you have an infrared thermometer, this is a great place to use it.

You want to look for a pizza stone that's about 500 degrees. And then you slide your pizza on top of it. You can put the pizza right on top of it. You can have a layer of parchment in between. Or you can use one of those pizza pans that I know you love, Jessica.

Yeah. You know, she was talking about, you know, trying out different positions in her oven. I don't know if she was talking about trying out different positions during the same bake, but that is a very good tactic. You know, what you're saying to start in the middle of your oven on a pizza stone and steel and then moving it up.

You know, starting at the bottom of your oven where the heat source is getting to crisp and then moving it up to the broiler where you get the top heat. You really this is why our colleague Martin Phillip always says baking pizza is really like cooking because you really have it's very active. You have to be there the same way that you tend to skillet of onions when you're like sautéing them.

You've got to tend to your pizza and move it around to get the right heat at the right time.

Okay, but did you ever lie? Did you really read all the books?

Curse of the amoeba pizza. That is amazing. Yeah. Yeah. I can't wait for that movie to come out. Yeah.

Well, I mean, yeah, I didn't read any books. But I didn't lie either. You didn't do book it. There was no point. I mean, it would be like, you know, if you get a punch for every time you have existential thoughts as a five-year-old, I would have killed it. Every existential thought you have, you get a punch card. Oh, my God.

Happens all the time. Yeah. Even it happens to the best of us.

I'm sure of it. Yeah. We do have some tips. So what do you do?

Fusing to the peel as it sits.

Yeah, you can save it.

You know, the truth is I never have this problem because I always use the fail safe option. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just that good. No, I'm not going to call it a cheat. It's just I always take the other option, which is instead of dusting my peel with semolina, I just I put my pizza on parchment.

So I after I, you know, have my pizza stretched out and shaped, I transfer it to I put a piece of parchment on my peel and I put my pizza on that top it and then I cut around I cut the the parchment that's exposed off because parchment paper could burn in a 500 degree oven. Yeah. And then you really don't have any problem. There's no sticking there because parchment is going to slide right off.

And, you know, it's not what the pros do. It's not a pro move, but I'm not a pro. I'm just I'm just a lowly home baker. And I like I like assurance of parchment paper.

That's what I was thinking. I was like, what's the problem here?

Let's not create more problems for ourselves. I mean, there's enough problems in the world.

Okay.

You're lying. That's not possible. No, it's true. Cheese side down in a frying pan. Face down in a frying pan. What you're making is fondue.

Six-inch pizzas, breakfast, lunch, and dinner. No, but I'm happy for you, though. I love that you have these good memories of childhood.

You put a cheese side down and all the cheese melts on the pan.

Oh, my God.

Oh, my gosh. You're rendering the cheese.

You're refrying your pizza in cheese grease. That honestly sounds really delicious.

I don't believe at all that it will work, but I'm excited to try it.

Yeah, that's really the answer. Just eat it cold. We hope we helped you. If you have a question, don't forget, go to kingarthurbaking.com slash podcast to record a voice message. And Jessica and I will use it to pontificate and have long conversations that have nothing to do with your question. And eventually we will get around to answering your question.

But yeah, it's true. You know what? No, I'm going to be proud. I'm going to be loud and proud about this. I do have a controversial opinion about pizza that I have tried to, that has come up again and again as Jessica and our colleagues and I have been writing this pizza book. And my take is that pizza does not need cheese. And in fact, I think pizza is better without cheese.

To me, that's over. That was my childhood. I'm an adult now. And you want a cheeseless pizza. I just want a cheeseless pizza. I want like, I just love, I love, I love a Rosa pizza. Is that how you say it? Rosa? Rosa? Rosa? I have no idea how you say it. But you know, like, Just as a pizza with a little red sauce, some anchovies, you know, I put some greens on there.

But I just think that when you have a pizza that's got like that sort of reduced tomato pasty sauce on it, it's just it's lovely. And it's not it's traditional. It's just a long tradition of this. We think of pizza now as kneading cheese, but it doesn't. There, I said it.

Yeah, I'm going back. Yeah, I'm just I just have those like 1600 vibes, you know, that's who I am.

It sounds like an ideal meal, honestly.

Okay, see, it really is a just opinion. See, you had one. You pretended like you didn't have one. You said you were going to give it to me, but now here it is.

You want white pizza more than, like, that's your top pizza is a white pizza? Yeah.

Oh, God. I don't know if you and I can eat pizza together.

I think we'll end up in a place where it's like pizza is good no matter what. It's like what you said at the beginning of the show. Like there is no bad pizza.

This week, I am baking a oversized version of a hostess cupcake, which is a recipe that our test kitchen came out with. I've been thinking about it ever since. It's a chocolate cake that uses a hot milk method, which is exactly what it sounds like. You pour hot milk into the batter when you're making it. I tried this cake in our test kitchen when they were developing it, and it is so good.

And we've talked a lot today about the nostalgia. And this is something that's very nostalgic for me. Instead of reading books and getting those book it, you know, points, I was eating Hostess cupcakes.

Wow.

It's really plush, I feel. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. What are you making this week?

You made those brownies. They were not even published when you when you when you made those brownies. You were so excited about that.

Peanut butter is close to pizza for me as a perfect food.

We can agree.

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Things Bakers Know is a King Arthur Baking Company podcast.

I mean, you just don't go to a slice shop at 3 p.m. Like it's packed with kids getting their after school slice, which, of course, I fully support.

And part of the reason home pizza making has gotten so good is because people have leveled up their equipment, which is to say a lot of people bought pizza ovens. There are so many options out for pizza ovens, high heat pizza ovens that really change the game for making pizza at home. And having a high heat pizza oven at home means that it hugely expands the type of pizza you can make.

You can still do pan pizzas, which I've always considered to be the home friendliest pizza. Yeah. And, you know, you can still do those in a high heat oven, but you can also do super thin crust pizzas and get them truly crisp. And you can even do Neapolitan style pizza, which historically has been almost impossible to achieve at home.

That's it. Goodbye, Italy.

Totally. So the American palate just wants crispier and crispier things. And I think that really speaks to where we are right now with homemaking, with making pizza at home in American kitchens. You were talking about your pizza memories of the 80s. And when I think about pizza in the 90s, I think the innovation there was really in California. We thought about California pizza,

I feel like you and I have been talking about pizza nonstop for the last year. Because we have, actually.

And it was all about what was going on top of the pizza. The idea that you could put creme fraiche and smoked salmon on a pizza was very new and very exciting. God, I remember the first time I had chicken on top of a pizza and it blew my mind. It was wild. Those were wild days with toppings. But now we're sort of past that. I think nobody blinks an eye. You put anything on a pizza, it's all good.

I think we're now back to a place where it's all about the dough. Pizza is... is as much if not more so about the dough because it's just bread. And what distinguishes great pizza is the crust and how it's baked, the mouthfeel of it, how oily is it, how crispy is it, how soft is it. But that's also where the challenge is because it can be hard to nail those different types of crust at home.

Right. You see the connection of how treating your dough, how nurturing a dough leads to great pizza. Oh, nurturing.

Isn't that sweet? See, I can be a parent too.

That's it. Show's over. I agree with you that the Neapolitan trend is over. And what I think is coming and already here in a lot of places is the rise of the Midwestern style pizza. We're talking about Midwestern tavern style pizza. So as the Midwesterner, Great Lakes tavern style pizza is... has always been a thing.

And now the rest of the country is getting hip to it, but it's not just the great lakes tavern style pizza that I think is coming up. It's also the super thin crispy Roman style pizza that's coming up in there. They're not exactly the same, but they're in the same family because they're super thin. You can eat an entire pizza and like still go for more. I know I've done it. Um,

And there's something really just really great about this style of pizza. There's something so light about it. It's almost like eating. It's not like eating a potato chip, but it's not not like eating a potato chip because it's like just that thin and crispy. And it doesn't it doesn't bog you down the same way. And it's like it's just a change of pace for pizza.

It's it aligns with your take, Jessica, because I think what we're both saying is that the drippy tip of pizza, like the soupy pizzas are out and pizzas with no dip tips are in.

Six inch pizzas, breakfast, lunch, and dinner. From King Arthur Baking Company, this is Things Bakers Know. I'm David Tamarkin, King Arthur's Editorial Director.

When you can hold a slice of pizza and it's as stiff as cardboard, you know, or maybe not quite that stiff. I mean, that'd be great. But generally, there's no slope. There's no downward slope. The cheese isn't dripping off. Then you have a no dip tip slice of pizza, which really just means you have a crisp pizza that when you bite into it, it's going to have a little bit of crunch.

Which is a big deal because Dan is really considered one of the leading pizza voices in the country. So if he's saying that no dip tip is in, it's in.

There's homework in this book. It feels like I'm in school again.

Like it was that significant. Totally. They were sort of dark and like very moody. Dark, moody.

I love those pans. Those pans are great. And actually, I love all those tools. In the course of writing the pizza book that we've been working on, we've used every single one of those things and they are all amazing.

Actually, all we're doing is waiting by the phone all day, all night. I don't eat until we get a question. I don't sleep until we get a question. So please send a question. I'm hungry.

I think I know what's going on too. Wait, can I tell you my theory first?

Okay. Or can this be the piece of equipment that we think is messing them up? Yes. Okay. On the count of three. One, two, three. Children. I think your children are pulling tricks on you. Sorry, you had the right answer, I think.

I love my scale. I use it every single day, multiple times a day.

Yeah. I think that's probably the culprit right there. I think, let's just say that she's using a scale. I think the other culprit could be just a wonky oven. And one of the most mind-bending things I learned about chocolate chip cookies from our test kitchen is that a too hot oven doesn't make your cookies spread. It makes them seize up too quickly.

that it's a too low oven that makes them spread because the hot oven sets the outside crust immediately. And the low oven doesn't set it soon enough so it spreads. I always thought it was the other way around. But it doesn't really matter what the problem is. It's just like your oven might be running high sometimes and low sometimes. This country is full of wonky ovens.

And so an oven thermometer is also a really handy thing to have.

Where do I begin? I mean, I have so many thoughts about this. I think we can check off the easy answers first. So first of all, yes, the type of chocolate, the form of chocolate you use does matter. If you are using chocolate chips, those are designed specifically to not melt. And that has an impact on the final texture of your cookie.

A chocolate chip cookie that uses chocolate chips will not spread as much. Neither good nor bad. It's a stylistic thing. But yes, it absolutely matters. If you're chopping your chocolate, you're going to get pools of chocolate throughout your cookie. Your cookie is going to kind of lay a little flatter. And you're going to have less consistency between chocolate bite to chocolate bite.

You're going to have these bites that are full of chocolate and then parts of the cookie that aren't. Personally, that's my preference. Now, as to her next question about what type of chocolate to use, I mean...

Yeah. I mean, it is actually wild to think about the fact that there are people alive today, pretty advanced in their years, but who are alive today, who when they were born, the chocolate chip cookie did not exist. So thank you for that history lesson. You are blowing my mind, Jessica. You know, in many ways, I think the chocolate chip cookie is every American baker's holy grail. It's the goat.

I love a mix.

I, like you, prefer a bittersweet chocolate in my cookie. For me, the chocolate is there to offset the sweetness of the cookie. Agreed. Yeah. I have a theory, Jessica, that's related to this question. Okay. I'm on the edge of my seat.

So you are aware, I know, I don't know if all of our listeners are, but you and I have talked about this recent phenomenon of the chocolate-less chocolate chip cookie.

Which... Yep. Wonder how you feel about it. And we talked privately about trying to wrap our heads around this. Is it a chocolate chip cookie? Is it not? What is the purpose and what is the reason for it? And my theory is that people who want a chocolate-less chocolate chip cookie perhaps have not had a chocolate chip cookie with the right chocolate in it.

Perhaps they've really had a lot of semi-sweet or milk chocolate or white chocolate in the cookies and they're getting the chocolate out because they want a cookie that's less sweet. And but if they tried a cookie with, you know, a 70 percent and if they want to go really dark, you know, like an 80 percent that they might find a better, shall I say, harmony of flavors?

Are we going to say symphony of flavors?

But it's a better balance that might endear you to the chocolate chip cookie more.

No, I'm just... I'm trying to collect myself. I feel so... I just... I don't know why. That was really emotional for me because I understand where Flora is coming from. And I hear the longing in her voice to eat that cookie dough.

Wait, before you go into that, I just got to say, for those listeners who can't see Jessica, it is paining her to say I have to say this. She does not want to say this, but it's true.

And the thing about it that I've been thinking about is that people never stop tinkering with it.

edible cookie dough at home i'm sorry to say flora i wish it weren't so none that we can recommend anyway none that we can recommend in good conscience for the children of america yeah see this is why i don't have kids i mean like i just i will never be able to be a parent because i hear i heard that and i was like i want to give her right now

And here in New York, where I'm, you know, recording from and everywhere actually right now, we see lines, lines forming around the planet, all the way around the planet. You can see it from space. The lines for chocolate chip cookies, they don't stop. They're only getting longer. To your point, you better start lining up now.

You know, the more we're talking about chocolate chip cookies and answering these questions.

Every episode, we like to check in with Jessica to see what wildly surprising and full-throated ideas are in her head. Around the office here at King Arthur, we have a name for these ideas. We call them Jess Opinions. And now, for the first time ever, we're making that a segment of our podcast. Welcome to Jess Opinions. Jessica, what is your Jess Opinion this week?

What's wrong with me? I cannot believe. Okay. Please explain. This is.

Yeah, that was a little weird.

Wait, so when you make chocolate chip cookies, you don't like burn your tongue eating one straight out of the pan?

I would never. By the time my cookies are cool, like I've eaten half of them. I feel disgusting, but it's not because they're warm. It's because I eat too many.

That's a good point. The edges have not had time to set up and get crispy. Right. So it's all it's sort of like all middle. All middle. Yeah. Oh, gosh. I never thought about that before. Now I'm getting a little grossed out.

Don't change me because I like the way I am.

Definitely going to get hate mail. But you know what? I will defend you till the day I die. You have a right to like cookies at whatever temperature you want. And that temperature seems to be not too cold. Definitely not warm, but just right. And that's fine.

Oh, yeah. Hopefully you're listening to this in line. But yeah, like it is remarkable. It's been around for almost 100 years. And yet we still have cookie fever.

Okay, that sounds odd. It sounds like an old cookie.

Wow. Okay. Yeah. It's a space cookie. That's a notable achievement. Yeah.

Oh, I just assumed like normal time, like 10 minutes.

Okay. Well, based on my experience in space, gosh, I guess gravity would, maybe gravity sped things up and it was like 30 seconds.

Totally. This is what I've seen. Cookies are in their extra era. Every cookie I see now, it's like extra, extra, extra. And it can be extra big and some of them are extra small. So right now in New York, there are so many places where you go and you get a cookie and it's so big, you need six people to eat it. And sometimes it's the other direction. Some of these cookies are super small.

I'm so confused. It's wild. Also worth it, probably. I mean, if you're in space and you want a chocolate chip cookie, worth it.

That's why they're in the museum.

They smell a cookie for two hours and then they don't get to eat it?

It's totally torture. These people have a lot of willpower.

Look, I applaud their willpower. I applaud their curiosity.

Like one I had at a pizza restaurant recently, I ordered dessert. They had chocolate chip cookies for dessert. I ordered them. And there was no indication that they were going to come in a bowl, like a bowl of cereal. And each cookie was about the size of a nickel. And you just kind of went in there and grabbed them with your hands and stuffed them in your face. They were so crispy.

On my agenda is more bread. I am in a bread zone right now. I'm in a bread. I'm in a good place with my starter. It's lively. I will say shout out to my husband who is feeding the starter because if it were on me, that starter would be dead. But it's not. And so I'm going for more sesame wheat. It's on our site.

And I'm David Tamarkin, King Arthur's editorial director. Jessica, what are we doing here?

And it's also in The Big Book of Bread, which is, of course, our number one New York Times bestselling cookbook. It's just an incredible loaf to have around during the week.

Breakfast, lunch.

I just call her Scalaquin because I think that's a bad accent.

One of the best foods ever made.

Remember to like us. Remember to like us. Please, please like us. Remember to like and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen.

We'll see you back here next week. In the meantime, please, people, follow the recipe. Just follow the recipe.

They were so good. Yeah, it was one of the best cookie experiences I've had in a while, actually. I think every chocolate chip cookie right now, every chocolate chip cookie in 2025 is leaning into some sort of identity, whether that's super big, super small, super soft. Super crispy, lots of seeds, cocoa nibs, espresso beans, whatever, jelly beans.

And me, David Tamarkin.

I don't know, people put everything in these things. In 2024, our recipe of the year was a cookie that did this. It was a super big, super soft chocolate chip cookie. And it was divisive because it leaned into one direction. It wasn't sort of an everyman's chocolate chip cookie. So that classic cookie that you kicked off the show talking about that Ruth Wakefield made,

That's still an amazing cookie, but I feel like no one is trying to do that anymore. That's old news. And all these extra cookies are what's hot now.

Every time. If it's on the menu, I order. I love the cookie plate.

But now that you say that, I will say it is often disappointing. But sometimes...

Very sweet, yeah.

Number one bestseller cookbooks. We also have a baking school. We have a website with recipes and tons of information about baking. And now we're bringing King Arthur to your ears in this podcast, where we'll be talking to experts, answering your baking questions, laughing at our own jokes, and offering a lot of opinions.

Every time. Really? If it's on the menu, I order it. I love the cookie plate. Wow. But now that you say that, I will say it is often disappointing, but sometimes.

As Jessica said, we love your new book. And I really found it to be your most personal book so far. And there were two chapters that I just wanted to just shout out. One is called Granny Neal's Christmas Cookie Tin. And the other is called Bubby Berkowitz's Cookies. And I love those two chapters because I also grew up in an interfaith household.

And I also had a Christmas grandma and a Hanukkah grandma there. And, you know, I didn't really know it. But until I read your book, I didn't really realize how like how rich it is to have that experience.

Yeah. Begging them not to.

I already had one and a half today, Jessica.

Good. We got to keep up our quota. Three o'clock. Two thirty. Yeah. So I'm on my way.

Zoe Francois, thank you so much for being our guest here on Things Bakers Know. I want to give you the last word. If there's anything else you want to say about chocolate chip cookies...

Perfect. We'll put a link to Zoe's habit forming chocolate chip smash cookies in the show notes, as well as a link to your phenomenal book, Zoe Bakes Cookies. Zoe, where else can our bakers find you?

Today's episode is brought to you by all the things you need to make your best chocolate chip cookies, all of which you'll find on KingArthurBaking.com. Jessica, I know this is going to shock you and everyone else, but we've got more than flour on there. We've got the vanilla. We've got the cookie sheets, the parchment, the oven mitts.

We do sell oven mitts. We sell oven gloves. We sell heavy duty oven mitts. And we've got the cookie scoops. And we've got a lot of chocolate. We've got dark milk, chips, wafers, La Verona. The other one I can't pronounce.

I mean, I go through so many of those Calibo wafers. It's crazy. I know. It is like a handful is like a perfect snack. Also a very good breakfast. Anyway, it's all there at kingarthurbaking.com. Go there. Get everything you need for your chocolate chip cookie. Start baking.

I know our listeners have a lot of questions about chocolate chip cookies, so let's get into it. It's time for Ask the Bakers. Maybe you have a baking question that's stumping you. If so, head to kingarthurbaking.com slash podcast to record a voice message. And we may end up using it on the show. That's kingarthurbaking.com slash podcast.

From King Arthur Baking Company, this is Things Bakers Know. I'm David Tamarkin, King Arthur's Editorial Director.

And of course, if you have a burning baking question that you just can't wait to get answered, you can always reach out to our Baker's Hotline via phone, email, or online chat. Just go to kingarthurbaking.com slash bakers dash hotline. kingarthurbaking.com slash bakers dash hotline.

Let's answer them.

Wait, excuse you. I am from Ohio. Okay. i am a midwestern to my core but i was thinking yes yeah here we are a midwesterner and a new englander talking about biscuits but we do have some southerners coming in later a couple southerners

It's perfect for us.

Yeah. You know, it's not that all-purpose flour is bad for biscuits. It's just that it requires a more gentle touch. If all you have is AP flour and you want to make biscuits right now, go for it. But just make sure that you're handling that dough really gently because the more you mess with it, the more gluten you're going to develop and the less tender your biscuit's going to be.

That's why the softer wheat is so great for biscuits because you can, you know, don't have to be quite as careful. Let's see what else we've got.

She's not wrong. I mean, these are loaded questions. There's about a million questions in each of these questions and we can answer all of them. So first of all, let's talk about the temperature of the ingredients. When I'm making biscuits, I put everything in the freezer. I put my metal bowl, I put all my tools in the freezer to get them really cold and my ingredients too.

I don't get them quite frozen. I don't freeze my butter until it's like hard as a rock, but I get it very, very cold. I think that does make a big difference. Because what you're trying to do here is you're trying to make sure that your biscuit dough, when it goes in the oven, has pockets of butter that will then melt and then release steam. Right.

Yes, yes. Well, and this is if you're making what she's going for, a flaky butter biscuit. Let's talk about that butter. She asked for a brand. I don't think the brand really matters, but I will say that I like American butter for biscuits, not necessarily European style. Nothing against European style butter. It's delicious. But, you know, I asked around. Mm-hmm.

And the King Arthur position on this is save the European butter for the top of your biscuit for buttering your finished hot biscuit. American butter has a little more water in it compared to European butter. And that can be helpful in a biscuit because what you want are those butter pockets to melt, release steam, and then that creates the layers that you're going for.

So any good brand of American style butter, I think, works. And then she asked a very good question about how to incorporate the butter, which there are many, many methods. You can do it with your hands. You can do it with the pastry cutter. I really like grating. Have you ever tried that?

Again, talk about big biscuit questions.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. But yeah, I feel like we're covering all the big questions. What kind of flour? What kind of butter? And how do I get them high? I think that's what people really want to know.

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, the other tip I would give this caller and everybody is something that I learned from our baking school. And it's one of the best things I've ever learned from our baking school. Very eye opening, which is that a biscuit is only going to rise half of its height in the oven. So you want to make your biscuits tall before they go into the oven.

You want to make sure that when the biscuits are in dough form, that they're tall at that point because they're not going to rise that much when they go into the oven. I mean, I think we all have this expectation that biscuits are going to rise higher than they actually do.

You're like, why did my biscuits come out so thin? Because we put them in thin, baby. Yeah. I don't think there's much risk in making your biscuits higher than the recipe calls for. You will, of course, yield less individual biscuits and you may need to increase the time they bake a little bit. But you can mess with that if you want, if you're not happy with the height, you know.

These are great questions.

It's the one thing that would get me to a basketball game.

And if you get 100 points, the fans get biscuits. Never have I seen happier people.

Mic drop.

The next basketball, I go to my nephew's high school basketball game sometime. I'm just going to start chanting, I want biscuits and see what happens.

Every episode, we like to check in with Jessica to see what wildly surprising and full-throated ideas are in her head. A segment we lovingly call Jess Opinions. Jessica, I cannot wait to hear what your Jess Opinion is on biscuits.

Yep, I'm your therapist.

We listen, but we don't judge? I don't participate in that trend because I judge.

I love that quote. Biscuits are the people's food. It's so true. And it's true, Jessica. Biscuits are still popping. You know, they're all over the place. Everywhere I look, I feel like I'm seeing a new biscuit. Here where I live in Upper Manhattan, there's a Harlem Biscuit Company, which lines out the door every day.

Yes.

Oh, okay.

Oh, we're talking about breakfast sandwich in particular? Yeah, in particular. What about fried chicken?

Oh, whoa. Okay.

Yeah.

Okay.

So what do you like to put on your biscuits?

butter and sometimes honey oh but that's pretty much it the simple jam maybe just the simple life yeah i mean can you beat a warm biscuit split and topped with butter and honey or jam i mean that sounds so good i i don't think you can beat it and between the two i'm always going to go for honey honestly a honey biscuit to be honey biscuit it's great yeah anyway so you're not making biscuit sandwiches this week but what are you baking jessica

Oh, invite me over.

Over at Bon Appetit, our friend Shopa, amazing baker at Bon Appetit, came out with a recipe for garlic bread biscuits, which I thought was such a fun play for Thanksgiving. And there's been a big focus on Southern baking, both modern Southern baking and historical Southern baking in cookbooks in the past few years. One of my favorites is by Cheryl Day, a friend of the podcast.

To have friends. That must be nice. Maybe that's why I don't have any. I never made donuts for them.

I'm making challah. I'm making the challah from our big book of bread. I think it's a great recipe. I'm working on proofing my challah expertly. I think that's the hardest part of making challah. The hardest part of making challah is not the braiding, although that can be challenging. It is in the proofing. It's getting the proof exactly right because when you have a perfectly proofed challah,

The shape keeps and you have none of that dreaded tearing. I never really cared about tearing in challah before I realized that there was a sign of a mistake I'd made. So now I really try to avoid that. But even if I don't get the proof right, I'm going to eat it.

Today, we're talking about one of the original American baked goods, biscuits. Biscuits.

Five. Yeah, I do a 28 strand. I do a three strand. I keep it simple. You know, the best tip I ever got, again, from King Arthur about braiding challah was to start in the middle. That makes a huge difference.

if you start at one end you have there's more risk of having an uneven shape and also of maybe having like a more of a bulbous end at the one you start with and then it just kind of becomes more like a v-shape than a than a oval shape

I wouldn't turn it down.

Yes, thank you for listening to all of our... Truly random opinions, all of our Jess opinions. And thanks for all your questions. The questions were amazing. And Jessica, I just want to thank you too. You know, we have a culture of appreciation here at King Arthur and I am sending you so much appreciation for being such a great co-host.

And another one is by Chef Kelly Fields. And they put a biscuit, a buttermilk biscuit on a pedestal, literally on a pedestal on the cover of their book, just to show like how important this baked good is to the South, but also to America as a whole.

And please, if you like this podcast, make sure to subscribe. It's the best way to figure out when we're back with new episodes. And you never know, we may drop a special episode sometime between now and the next season. So to do that, go to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Apple Music, or wherever you listen. Click that subscribe button and you'll be notified as soon as any new episode drops.

In the meantime, you can always find us over at kingarthurbacon.com. And don't forget, people, please just follow that recipe. Come on.

Things Bakers Know is hosted and executive produced by me, David Tamarkin.

Rossi Anastapulo is our senior producer. Chad Chennai is our producer and engineer. Original music by Megan and Marcus Begala. Special thanks to today's guest, the fabulous Deb Freeman. Deb is the host and executive producer of Finding Edna Lewis. You can also find Deb online at her website, deb-freeman.com.

We'll add a link to Finding Edna Lewis and the article she wrote on King Arthur's website about biscuits in the show notes. Things Bakers Know is a King Arthur Baking Company podcast.

You want to know what my biscuit vibe is?

Okay, great. I don't know. Yeah. I have a vibe. And I'll tell you something. I'm like a biscuit butterfly. I came out of my cocoon. And here we go. This is my biscuit truth. I am a fluffy biscuit. I'm a soft biscuit. I don't want to hear it. I know people want the flaky biscuit. They want the crispy edges on their biscuit. Give me A fluffy biscuit. Give me tall. Give me soft edges.

Make my biscuits bake together in a pan. Let me pull them apart. Let my biscuit kind of be like a roll almost, but better. Like just a heartier roll. I just think a fluffy biscuit is where I am. And I'll tell you something else, Jessica. I am not right now at this very moment.

i'm not a savory biscuit i'm a sweet biscuit so i want to be spread like spread me with clotted cream and jam i guess that's more scone spread me with butter and jam slather me in honey i don't know i was gonna say put chocolate don't put chocolate on me i'm a biscuit

You're like, why'd my biscuits come out so thin? Because we put them in thin, baby.

You were training.

That's the training plan I need to be on.

Very popular and very good. I mean, there's no bad biscuit, honestly. I think I love any biscuit that you give me.

One of the ways that I learned about the history of the biscuit was on our own site. We commissioned writer Deborah Freeman, historian and podcaster and food writer, to write a story about the history of biscuits. And it was fascinating, such a good read. And we wanted her to come on the podcast to tell us more and go into maybe some more details that she couldn't fit into the piece.

And in particular, the influence of black bakers on biscuits. Deb Freeman, welcome to Thinks Bakers Know. It's a pleasure to have you.

Can you give us a quick introduction for listeners who may not be familiar with you yet? Tell us what you do, where you do it.

To talk about biscuits. Absolutely. Yes, yes. You wrote one of my favorite pieces of all time on King Arthur's site, a history of biscuits and how it came to America. So we're going to talk a lot about that. But first, you mentioned you grew up in the South and you mentioned in the piece that biscuits were a big part of your upbringing. Can you share your first memory of biscuits?

In your story for King Arthur, you trace the origins of the American biscuit to ancient Rome. But those early biscuits sound like they were absolutely horrible. Tell us about those.

This is the time before dentists, like how did they even bite those? I mean, they must have been like, just like putting them in their mouth and letting them disintegrate. I mean, it just sounds so gross.

But somehow that biscuit turned into the variety of biscuits that we know and love. And one thing that you illustrate in your story is that Europeans brought these hard unseasoned biscuits to America. Thank you very much. But then innovation started happening. And can you tell us a little bit how that happened?

Yeah.

You talk about the beaten biscuit, which seems like that was a pivotal moment in the history of biscuits. What is the beaten biscuit?

Okay. So we're at the point in biscuit history where, you know, they're starting to get lighter. This is, I feel like the point where we got lots of contributions from black chefs and inventors that are pivotal to, you know, making the biscuit what it is today. Can you talk a little bit about one of them? Unless we don't know the person saying, but a Pullman porter.

First of all, what is a Pullman porter?

I love that. But one of my favorite details in your piece is this idea that Northerners had at one point that hot bread was evil. And so they looked down on Southerners who were eating hot biscuits as their bread. They wanted a room temperature. They wanted a cold bread. They wanted room temperature, a slice of bread, not a hot biscuit. What were they thinking?

I think so. Yeah. As a Northerner, I will say yes. Yeah.

I think that's pretty wild. It's so wild. I mean, people have these people never like, obviously, they never experienced the joy of eating a hot, fresh, you know, biscuit warm. I mean, come on, people. All right, Deb Freeman, thank you so much. It's been amazing to talk to you about biscuits. Where can people find you?

All right, Deb, thank you so much for being here. It's a pleasure to speak to you.

This episode is brought to you by King Arthur's new buttermilk biscuit flour blend. It's made with unbleached soft wheat flour, baking powder, a little bit of salt, and real buttermilk.

Totally. Like, I don't keep buttermilk around because how do you know when it goes bad? It smells like it's off even when it's good. Anyway, you can find our new buttermilk biscuit flour blend on grocery store shelves, which is very exciting. Or, of course, at KingArthurBaking.com.

From King Arthur Baking Company, this is Things Bakers Know. I'm David Tamarkin, King Arthur's editorial director.

It's a great book.

It's time for our next segment, Ask the Bakers. For Ask the Bakers, we want to hear from you. If you have a baking question for us, head to kingarthurbaking.com slash podcast to record a voice message. And we may end up using it on the show. That's kingarthurbaking.com slash podcast.

So what's the name of your sourdough starter? Now that I think about it, I have no less than four starters in my fridge right now, all of varying ages. I've only named one of them and I could have sort of The name applies to all of them.

This really resonates for me because I feel like when I get too fragile, too sensitive, I just collapse.

And all of my starters are named choices because I wanted to remind myself that when I was frustrated or when I was annoyed that I had to feed it in the middle of the night before going to bed or when a bread didn't come out the way I wanted it to, that this was my choice. I made it. No one to blame but me and my choices. So that's why.

That's a great analogy. And that is, I think, where people like me get a little tripped up is because to your point, yes, you can make a loaf of bread, a successful loaf of bread with a starter that's been maintained moderately well. But the difference between a loaf of bread that's been made with sourdough that's been maintained very well is palpable. It's noticeable.

So don't be like me, people. Feed your sourdough. Feed Fernando on a regular basis. To step back, what does a regular basis look like? Amber, if they're keeping Fernando in the fridge, how often should they be feeding him to keep it at peak?

Take him out of the fridge, feed Fernando once, and then 12 or so hours later, feed him again. And then maybe even one more time before you start baking. Anyway, I think we can move on. I think... I think we've kept Fernando. We've taken him off of life support. Who's next? I think we have one more question.

I'm saying just move on from romance.

Next up, we have something a little bit different. We asked all of you home bakers to send in the names of your sourdough starters and y'all did not disappoint. Let's listen to some of our favorites.

Yeast mode is good. Yeah.

So we had Bread Pit, Bradley Cooper. Yep.

I like anything that's named after Nico Case. So I'm sort of falling towards that one. I'm a big Nico Case fan. Yeah, I sensed a big difference between a lot of the callers and myself and you, Jessica. There's a lot of really like earnest, sweet names. And the only time I've ever named a sourdough starter, it's always been either self-deprecating in some way or sarcastic or punny or, you know.

Yeah, they're so sweet. Very sweet stories. Yeah. And it's opening, it's opening a whole new world for me in terms of what I could name my sourdough starter. And the ones that are named after other people or that are reminders, or I think that one caller said that it was named after all the strong women in her family. That's very sweet because, you know.

Strong, productive women. Yes.

Lazy family members did not get their names worked into the starter.

Every episode, we'd like to check in with Jessica to see what wildly surprising and full-throated ideas are in her head. A segment we lovingly call Jess Opinions. Jessica, what is your Jess opinion this week?

Okay. I don't think you're, you're probably not alone in this just opinion. I think a lot of people, like you said, have been turned off by sourdough and they want their sourdough to be less sour. Your just opinion is you want sourdough bread to be, well, what's the opposite of sour? Sweet?

Yeah, it can get aggressive. And, you know, as a Midwesterner, I support anything that like is anti-coasts, you know.

To each their own.

I'm on the hunt for something. I haven't nailed down the recipe yet, but I just really want some digestive biscuits.

Oh, yeah. And the reason why is last time I was up at headquarters, I brought back a bag of our new oat flour. And I'm just looking for ways to use it just to check it out. And digestive biscuits keep on coming up. So I want to make some classic digestive biscuits. I love like weedy, oaty cookies. Yeah. And I'm definitely going to dip half of them in chocolate.

I love this thing, this cookie slash cracker that can go either savory or sweet. Yeah.

I would not want to develop a tarte tatin recipe because it would just take me forever. At the same time, I would want to develop it just so I can have lots and lots and lots of tarte tatin around.

Yes, yes. Cut me off. Please cut me off. I gotta stop talking. Yes, we are out of time.

Remember to like and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

We'll see you back here next week. In the meantime, don't forget, follow the recipe. Things Bakers Know is hosted and executive produced by me, David Tamarkin.

Rossi Anastapulo is our senior producer. Chad Chennai is our producer and engineer. Original music by Megan and Marcus Begala.

Things Bakers Know is a King Arthur Baking Company podcast.

I blacked it out.

Yeah, it was not a blip. It's kept on going. Last spring, in fact, we found ourselves in what we were calling internally here at King Arthur, the second sourdough boom, because we looked at Google Trends on our own site traffic that the interest in sourdough was at the same level as the pandemic.

So it really seems like year after year, sourdough is only growing and it's becoming more and more mainstream when it used to be something niche.

I think there's a lot more ahead of us. I think when people start their sourdough journey, they really have one bread in mind. They have a crusty bull or batard that has a nice open crumb to probably a higher hydration bread. I think for a long time, when we think of sourdough bread, we have that loaf in mind.

It's really something that I think tartine bread, which you worked on one of those books, right? I think you co-wrote one of the tartine bread books.

I mean, just the fact that there were three Tartine bread books, I mean, speaks to the power of that bread in particular and the desire for people to make it. And that's why I say sourdough has so much more to go because there's so much more to sourdough than just that loaf. And that's a great loaf. But the other day, my husband made a sourdough sandwich bread, I think from the big book of bread.

It's so delicious. I mean, it almost tastes like brioche. I mean, it's so tender. It's the exact opposite of that crusty loaf. It's soft. The crumb is even. You can actually put something on it without it falling through. And it's delicious. And I think more and more people are going to understand that sourdough has tons of uses and can make all sorts of breads.

And it can have tons of uses outside of bread. Our test kitchen just put out a great sourdough brownie and the sourdough has a function there. It makes it super fudgy.

Our friend Lucas Volger wrote a Substack newsletter about our sourdough granola recipe, where we use sourdough culture to create a super crispy granola that needs less sugar because the sourdough is the thing that's making it crisp and binding it all together. So there's so many places that sourdough can go. And I think we're just getting started.

Before we get anywhere, I think we need to establish what our starters names are, Jessica. So can you please tell us what you've named your sourdough starter?

obsessed with night moves.

Yeah. It's a powerful ingredient. I think one of the things I love about sourdough is that it is function and flavor, and you can choose to take advantage of both those things or just one of them. Obviously, it has leavening power. Obviously, it has flavor. But if you use a young sourdough starter for some of these, quote unquote, discard recipes, you're not going to get any of that flavor at all.

And that's maybe what you want, but it has the function, as you said. It's another way to get hydration and flour into your recipe. I bring that up because I'm actually beginning to dislike the term discard recipe. Because I think we should be thinking about sourdough as an ingredient that goes beyond bread.

And it sort of sounds dismissive, like you would only make these brownies if you're using sourdough discard. When in fact, you could be building a sourdough starter specifically to make those brownies because you like the flavor of those brownies. Or because you like what it does in the lemon loaf that we just put on our site recently.

So I think expanding our idea of what sourdough culture is even for is an exciting new terrain for sourdough. Although I know today we're pretty much sticking to sourdough bread.

Literal years of our lives.

Nice.

Today we're sticking to sourdough bread because that's how most people get into sourdough. And when we called for questions about sourdough, 90% of the questions were about bread. So we're going to bring in one of our amazing colleagues, Amber Eisler. Amber Eisler, King Arthur's Director of Baking Education, was also a bread baker in our bakery for five years.

And she's been teaching at our baking school for over 15 years. In other words, she knows a lot about making great bread, particularly sourdough bread. Amber, thanks for coming on the podcast.

My first question for you, Amber, is what are you seeing in your sourdough baking school classes these days? Has there been any shift in students' interest or knowledge of sourdough in the last few years?

I know exactly the loaf you're talking about. We're talking about a crusty loaf with an open structure. How hard is that to get for a beginner sourdough baker?

I feel like I've been doing that the past five years. Let's move on to fermentation and proofing. This was a real pain point for me when I started baking bread. Sometimes, honestly, it still is. Nailing the proof on a final loaf of bread before you slide it in the oven has such an enormous impact on that bread's bake. And I kept on pulling... flat loaves out of the oven in amber.

I don't think I have to tell you that I was not trying to make flatbread here. I was trying to make big, beautiful, bulbous loaves of bread. But I wasn't nailing the proof. I was either under-proofing or over-proofing. What are your tips for bakers for nailing fermentation and proofing?

Another thing I want to talk about, I just was talking about this with my husband yesterday as he was baking bread, is color. There's a lot of different opinions about color. I'm now at a point where my loaf's really dark and I love that sort of almost bitterness that you get from a very dark crust. My husband is not there yet. So when he bakes bread, we have lighter loaves.

And then sometimes I see some very, very pale loaves. Is there a right color for sourdough?

So when you talk about the score mark, are you talking about the deepest part of the score or perhaps the ear that forms around the score?

And you want to see that golden brown?

That's a great tip. I love that. What is one tip, Amber, you would give to a beginner sourdough baker looking to level up their bread?

For everything, really, not just for bread. I was thinking about practice and hours put into bread as you were talking. And I was thinking about the five years you spent in our bakery making bread every day. And I just imagined that when you're a bread baker in a professional setting, that you were constantly...

doing what you just said you're constantly doing the detective work to know like is the dough right it's not it's never quite predictable right like because like you said it's about the moisture in the room the temperature everything there's so many elements um you said it was engineers who who were initially taking several classes i think of an engineer as somebody who like wants to design something that works each and every time i don't know my feeling is i just wonder if you agree with this that bread is never going to be like that

Well, what was the name of the starter that you buckled in? It wasn't named. Oh, you just didn't name it. I know.

And I think some of that, you don't get the same level of that, of course, as a home baker or as an occasional home baker. But I think the spirit of that is getting up and trying again. And just temporary art is perfect for that. I love that. So thank you, Amber. Okay, Amber, where can people find you if they wanted more of your wisdom on bread?

I'm obsessed with that class. It's such a great class. And if anybody wants to learn more, we'll have a link in our show notes. As you know, Amber, people have so many questions about sourdough. It's not just me. And so while you've done a great job answering my questions, I wonder if you'd stick around to help us answer some listener questions.

It's the name of your dog.

I love that thing. It's like a little electric blanket for your sourdough starter. You put it on it and it's like the perfect temperature to make it rise and get all bubbly. And you can put your breads on it too. And it makes your breads rise easily. I'm trying it with my wallet to see if I put my wallet on it. It makes like my 401k rise or something or whatever.

And yet the older I get, the more my birthday cakes look like something you would serve at a funeral.

Very sugary. Light but gritty. But I'm into it. I can't lie. I mean, I'll eat it. Yeah.

This episode is brought to you by the tools and ingredients you need to make your best birthday cake, all of which you'll find on KingArthurBaking.com. We've got pans and parchment, plus key decorating tools like our new offset spatulas.

Every day? Okay.

Oh, nice.

Back to the ad, we also have recipes. Try our classic birthday cake, which was our 2019 recipe of the year, or Cheryl Day's old-fashioned coconut cake, which I know, Jessica, is a cake that you love. And for you mixed bakers out there, we have plenty of those too. I love our chocolate cake mix. I make it all the time. And honestly, it makes me feel like every day is my birthday.

So make every day your birthday over at kingarthurbaking.com.

Well, I know our listeners have some burning questions about not burning their cakes. So let's go into Ask the Baker. For Ask the Baker, we want to hear from you. Maybe you have a baking question that's stumping you. If so, head to kingarthurbaking.com slash podcast to record a voice message. And we may end up using it on the show. That's kingarthurbaking.com slash podcast.

I'm going to let you take this one, Jessica.

Yeah. My mom also made all my birthday cakes growing up. She didn't slip quarters into them because we were very choking hazard aware in my house. We had signs all over like what to do if you see someone... But when we were planning this episode, a different memory popped up for me. And it was one that I didn't even realize was still rattling around in my old brain.

Yeah. Let's hear from our next caller.

thanks bye oh i mean i understand why she's frustrated but chocolate pancakes sound good yeah but not when you're hoping for a cake not when you're hoping for a cake but it's just saying i might have to make those uh this weekend you know she checked her baking powder and that was a smart thing to do because the first culprit is the leavening so checking the powder is a smart thing to do and the fact that her baking powder is still alive still kicking makes me think that perhaps there's too much of it in this recipe or maybe she's

And I'm David Tamarkin, King Arthur's editorial director.

putting it in a little too generously. And I would recommend pulling back on that because what happens when you have too much leavening in the cake, no matter where it comes from, is you can get that cake to rise too high and then it leads to a great fall. That's actually life advice too, you know? Don't get, don't, you know, stay humble.

So that would be my first course of action is to pull back on the baking powder, see if that makes a difference.

I do. But it's because my leaveners are from like 2015. And honestly, they're still kicking. But you got to check.

I know. It's about 99 cent box of baking powder. I don't know, Jessica. Maybe next year. Maybe for my maybe as a birthday gift.

And it's the memory of the cake that my first boyfriend made for me when I turned 23 years old. I was just a baby. And it was straight from the cover of Gourmet Magazine. It was a classic yellow cake, chocolate frosting. And I remember going into his apartment. He didn't mention the cake. I saw it on the counter. He just kind of let me find it. And just the feeling of, wow, you made that for me?

It's such a bummer. That the pat test, the gentle press in the middle is so key. And I understand why you don't always trust the toothpick test. But I just want to tell bakers, if you have not sort of gotten used to the feel of a well-baked cake in the oven, get used to it. It's so helpful. And if neither of those things works, break out the maple syrup.

Yeah, exactly. Let's go to our next caller.

You hear bakers talk about reverse creaming because it's one of the best things ever. I love a reverse cream cake. And I don't think I really understood just how delicious and the impact of reverse creaming until our 2022 recipe of the year, which was a coffee cake that used reverse creaming. The texture on a reverse cream cake is, I mean, it's buttery.

It's decadent in a way. Yes.

Yes. So many traditional cakes start by creaming the butter and the sugar. And the point of creaming the butter and sugar is to incorporate some air into the cake. That helps it rise. With reverse creaming, you cream the butter and the flour and the other dry ingredients first.

This can be counterintuitive because we're all told, for good reason, to not overwork our flour because then gluten will form. And as Jessica was just talking about with cake flour, it can lead to a texture that you don't want. However, when you cream butter and flour together, the butter coats the flour and therefore prevents gluten from forming when you add the wet ingredients.

So that's the trick here. Reverse creaming, which is also known as the paste method, prevents gluten formation, resulting in a more tender cake. It is a texture unlike other cakes and it's delicious. One other thing about reverse creaming is that the cakes tend to dome less, which can be a benefit if you're trying to stack them.

Shout out to Rose Levy Birnbaum who really spread the word about this technique. If you want to try reverse creaming, King Arthur's Vanilla Birthday Cake and Tender White Cake are two great options. We'll put those recipes in the show notes for you.

Every episode, we like to check in with Jessica to see what wildly surprising and full-throated ideas are in her head. But today, we're going to a different person for these wildly surprising and full-throated opinions. It's not Jessica, but it's Jessica's protege, Rossi Anastapulo, also our podcast producer.

Rossi, before you give us your Jess opinion, I have to ask, were you this opinionated before you started working with Jessica? Yes.

I was so touched. I mean, that is the power of a birthday cake. Now, listen, I've since found out that he makes that birthday cake for his current husband, which is... You weren't as special as you thought. Not great for my memories. Yeah, right. But whatever. I got it first.

Yeah, I can vouch for that because I knew you for a full year before Jessica joined the team and you were much more mild-mannered. And now look at you. You're coming on the podcast with a hot take on cake. What is it?

Oh boy. Okay. So we already established at the beginning of the episode that this is not okay.

This is spoken like a true person who has mastered pie crust, but plenty of people out there, the pie crust shrinks, it looks shabby. How do you get around that?

You're actually convincing me a little bit here because you could also press that cookie crust into a tart pan and get a very beautiful scalloped edge and then fill it with cream. Okay, I'm actually being convinced.

That's a good point.

You know, do you stick a candle in your pie, Rossi?

Thanks, Rossi.

This week, I'm making the sweet version of our recipe of the year, which is the big and bubbly focaccia. I've made that big and bubbly focaccia so many times. And I actually have taken it sweet before. I put sparkling sugar on top of it. I put chocolate into it. This focaccia goes sweet very well. And I really like the interplay of the olive oil with the sweetness. It It's really nice.

Yeah, me too. But Sarah John Powell, our test kitchen director, she came out with a brand new recipe for cinnamon roll, big and bubbly focaccia. And it is, I got to taste this during testing. Why is it better than focaccia and cinnamon rolls? It's so good.

How about you?

Remember to like and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen.

We'll see you back here next week to talk about all things sourdough. In the meantime, don't forget, please follow the recipe. Just follow the recipe.

And me, David Tamarkin.

Never had one. Wouldn't that be sad?

It had texture.

You and I agree on that. I'm sure we're going to get some emails advocating for the pie. I think even one of our producers of the show might be a pie for a birthday person. But we'll talk to you later, Rossi. Although I will say, I think you and I like similar birthday cakes, but there's a lot of reimagining of birthday cakes happening out there in the world. They're getting bigger.

They're getting more elaborate. They're breaking out of the chocolate vanilla flavor mold. Over the last year, I feel like you and I and everyone at King Arthur has been noticing so much cake innovation in general, just from like giant sheet cakes served in parks at huge picnics. Flavor with everything you can imagine, you know, fig leaves, tea, black sesame. Meanwhile, I'm

I wonder if the classic traditional birthday cake has actually been a little diminished. They become every day. I was in the grocery store the other day. I saw birthday cake Oreos. Oh, yeah. A new restaurant just opened in Brooklyn and their main dessert is birthday cake. How many people are actually eating that on their birthday?

Yeah, right. These things are clearly not meant to be reserved for your actual birthday. It's meant to give you a birthday moment in an otherwise normal day.

A moment of joy, right? Yeah. No, I'm not against it. I'm into it. But it does leave open the question, okay, so where does that leave the birthday cake? So where does that leave the birthday cake for you, Jessica?

I know a very good recipe for a coconut sheet cake. Oh. So that totally resonates with me. Sheet cake is birthday cake. Layer cake is birthday cake. And yet the older I get, the more my birthday cakes look like something you would serve at a funeral. I mean, I want I just want like really sleek, sexy, dark birthday cakes.

I want like a flower, a single layer flowerless chocolate cake, maybe with even like maybe doubling down on the chocolate or tripling down on the chocolate by adding like a shiny glaze. I just want like I don't know. I just want something very, very intense and very sleek is the word that comes to mind.

Right. Yeah. I just want to have a sugarless chocolate cake. It's just basically like solid coffee.

You did not say that with much conviction. No.

Absolutely. I think the birthday cake should be dictated by the birthday person. I also think it's 100 percent OK and even a flex for the birthday person to make their own birthday cake.

And I know that. Oh, no. I know this is this idea out there that the birthday cake is made with love from someone else. But if you make your own birthday cake, it's sort of like an appreciation for yourself. It's an act of love. self-love, which are words I don't even like hearing come out of my mouth. But it's an act. I don't know. I think it's a real act of just giving yourself what you want.

And I think that's something that people need more practice doing, like leaning into getting what you want and doing it for yourself. Sisters are doing it for themselves on their birthday. They're making their own birthday cake. I'm into it.

You'd rather have a bad birthday cake made for you than make a good one for yourself.

I respect that. I just want a good birthday cake. So if no one's around, if you can't bake for me, I'm just going to bake it myself. Luckily, I'm married to a man who does know how to bake. So we don't have that problem.

You know, I think you talked to some interesting people about this subject. I don't know if you got to this topic, but you've told a couple people who bake other people birthday cakes for a living.

I love both of these bakers. I have so much admiration for. I'm obsessed with Cheryl Day. And I've been watching Bronwyn Wyatt make cakes on Instagram for years and coveting them. So I can't wait to hear this conversation.

Like those big, those sheet cakes with white icing that's like almost like whipped cream. Very, very, very light, right? From the grocery store?