Diane K. Boyd

Isn't that wild?

Isn't that wild?

And when they do that, they're not very well set up to survive.

And when they do that, they're not very well set up to survive.

It's a parasite from cats. Another book you'd like to read is called Spillover. Have you read that by David Quammen?

It's a parasite from cats. Another book you'd like to read is called Spillover. Have you read that by David Quammen?

So he wrote it, I think, 2017. It's an older book, maybe 2012. And he wrote, it's a spillover from wild animals, just Q-U-A-M-M-I-N-I-N, wild animals to human populations. And it starts with a horse disease in Australia that becomes some extremely viral, terrible disease in humans. And he actually traces back the origins of HIV. And all this happened before COVID.

So he wrote it, I think, 2017. It's an older book, maybe 2012. And he wrote, it's a spillover from wild animals, just Q-U-A-M-M-I-N-I-N, wild animals to human populations. And it starts with a horse disease in Australia that becomes some extremely viral, terrible disease in humans. And he actually traces back the origins of HIV. And all this happened before COVID.

And it just was so set up because COVID is the same kind of same kind of a deal. But it's a fascinating book. And because you got an inquisitive mind, I think you'd really enjoy it.

And it just was so set up because COVID is the same kind of same kind of a deal. But it's a fascinating book. And because you got an inquisitive mind, I think you'd really enjoy it.

Some people don't know.

Some people don't know.

Well, I'm not going to go there because we have different... But natural spillover is clearly real. But spillover documents many, many species. And actually, it's fascinating. Mad cow disease, it's the same thing.

Well, I'm not going to go there because we have different... But natural spillover is clearly real. But spillover documents many, many species. And actually, it's fascinating. Mad cow disease, it's the same thing.

CWD, oh my goodness.

CWD, oh my goodness.

Surprise.

Surprise.

So do you have CWD here yet in Texas?

So do you have CWD here yet in Texas?

Well, it'll be really interesting with the resources of the Yellowstone researchers who do amazing stuff to see what the long-range outcome is from this realization that, you know, there are 46 likely more times to be a leader of the pack. And what do these risk-taking behaviors entail? I'm really excited to follow this.

Well, it'll be really interesting with the resources of the Yellowstone researchers who do amazing stuff to see what the long-range outcome is from this realization that, you know, there are 46 likely more times to be a leader of the pack. And what do these risk-taking behaviors entail? I'm really excited to follow this.

The first one, my understanding, the first one in Yellowstone that released wolf, the first mortality of a wolf was getting hit by a UPS truck.

The first one, my understanding, the first one in Yellowstone that released wolf, the first mortality of a wolf was getting hit by a UPS truck.

I just feel kind of bad for the driver. I shouldn't laugh. I mean, there's a dead wolf, but can you imagine?

I just feel kind of bad for the driver. I shouldn't laugh. I mean, there's a dead wolf, but can you imagine?

You're the first guy. Oh, my God.

You're the first guy. Oh, my God.

I know, I know.

I know, I know.

Anyway, sorry.

Anyway, sorry.

Yeah.

Yeah.

How prevalent is it in humans? I don't know.

How prevalent is it in humans? I don't know.

Really?

Really?

It's mind-boggling to me. You know, people think, oh, wolves can just kill it. Well, they can do whatever they want. They have a hard life.

It's mind-boggling to me. You know, people think, oh, wolves can just kill it. Well, they can do whatever they want. They have a hard life.

Right, right. It's crazy. The whole interface between humans and wildlife is becoming a more and more popular field. And if I was young and could do my career over, I wouldn't go into that because it's really crazy. The CWD. Mm-hmm. So when wolves first encountered parvovirus and distemper, it came from people and dogs going into parks and camping and dogs pooping.

Right, right. It's crazy. The whole interface between humans and wildlife is becoming a more and more popular field. And if I was young and could do my career over, I wouldn't go into that because it's really crazy. The CWD. Mm-hmm. So when wolves first encountered parvovirus and distemper, it came from people and dogs going into parks and camping and dogs pooping.

And the disease came into being in the 80s. But we started documenting it in Glacier. And the first year that I was catching wolves and we took blood samples, they're off the chart in their immune response, the antibodies, to that particular disease. And we had most of our pups all die that year.

And the disease came into being in the 80s. But we started documenting it in Glacier. And the first year that I was catching wolves and we took blood samples, they're off the chart in their immune response, the antibodies, to that particular disease. And we had most of our pups all die that year.

They live in packs because they're not very efficient killers. You know, mulled lions, bears... they're a more efficient predator, especially a mountain lion.

They live in packs because they're not very efficient killers. You know, mulled lions, bears... they're a more efficient predator, especially a mountain lion.

Boom, like that. And people don't think about, yeah, I got my little dachshund up at, you know, McDonald Lake and he pooped and you don't pick it up and the wolves get it. But the same thing happened in Yellowstone and they have certain years where they have horrible pup survival. It's called recruitment and they don't make it into the fall.

Boom, like that. And people don't think about, yeah, I got my little dachshund up at, you know, McDonald Lake and he pooped and you don't pick it up and the wolves get it. But the same thing happened in Yellowstone and they have certain years where they have horrible pup survival. It's called recruitment and they don't make it into the fall.

But the other thing of interest, so they've been learning by studying coat colors of wolves in Yellowstone that genetically, the ones who carry the gene for the black coat color, they have a different disease resistance to those diseases than the gray wolves.

But the other thing of interest, so they've been learning by studying coat colors of wolves in Yellowstone that genetically, the ones who carry the gene for the black coat color, they have a different disease resistance to those diseases than the gray wolves.

Maybe Jamie could look that up. At certain times when the disease prevalence is higher, the wolves will select a mate of a certain color because their genetics change. prove to be an asset to the survival of those pups.

Maybe Jamie could look that up. At certain times when the disease prevalence is higher, the wolves will select a mate of a certain color because their genetics change. prove to be an asset to the survival of those pups.

So they've also been looking at that. So when I first came to Montana, many of the wolves were black, and now it's probably 50-50 or less. In Minnesota, the original Midwestern wolves... were gray and now they've got black color genes and there are changes with the population density.

So they've also been looking at that. So when I first came to Montana, many of the wolves were black, and now it's probably 50-50 or less. In Minnesota, the original Midwestern wolves... were gray and now they've got black color genes and there are changes with the population density.

But what I learned to my best knowledge, it's a K locus gene and they think that when people domesticated dogs from wolves and we took the wolves into captivity and we mutated, they had mutations that we helped survive, that gene for black color coat was from dogs and then dogs got bred a little bit into the wolves occasionally and that coat is from a dog.

But what I learned to my best knowledge, it's a K locus gene and they think that when people domesticated dogs from wolves and we took the wolves into captivity and we mutated, they had mutations that we helped survive, that gene for black color coat was from dogs and then dogs got bred a little bit into the wolves occasionally and that coat is from a dog.

Doesn't mean that the animals out there that are black are hybrids. I'm just saying it goes back thousands of years.

Doesn't mean that the animals out there that are black are hybrids. I'm just saying it goes back thousands of years.

And they got all the claws to hang on, but a wolf can only go with its teeth. And so it generally takes numerous wolves to successfully hunt an animal, especially something big like a moose or a bison.

And they got all the claws to hang on, but a wolf can only go with its teeth. And so it generally takes numerous wolves to successfully hunt an animal, especially something big like a moose or a bison.

Oh, boy. You know what? I haven't gone there. I mean, if you look at Romulus and Remus, those are gray wolves in Rome.

Oh, boy. You know what? I haven't gone there. I mean, if you look at Romulus and Remus, those are gray wolves in Rome.

I don't know. You know, I'm not a paleontologist.

I don't know. You know, I'm not a paleontologist.

That's the idea, like having Arctic wolves being white.

That's the idea, like having Arctic wolves being white.

But it's the K locus for the black color gene, and it depends on if they're homozygous or heterozygous, and one is, here you go.

But it's the K locus for the black color gene, and it depends on if they're homozygous or heterozygous, and one is, here you go.

Here you go. Yeah, this would be, yeah.

Here you go. Yeah, this would be, yeah.

Yes.

Yes.

It is, literally. Yeah, literally. And I suspect from people living in northern latitudes, the Inuits and the Native Americans throughout Russia and across the north, you know, they kept dogs, too, and they bred them to wolves and made better sled dogs. But an early reference told me that the dog native to North America was brought over here.

It is, literally. Yeah, literally. And I suspect from people living in northern latitudes, the Inuits and the Native Americans throughout Russia and across the north, you know, they kept dogs, too, and they bred them to wolves and made better sled dogs. But an early reference told me that the dog native to North America was brought over here.

The Native Americans didn't have dogs here thousands and thousands of years ago. That's what I've been reading.

The Native Americans didn't have dogs here thousands and thousands of years ago. That's what I've been reading.

Yes.

Yes.

The Spaniards brought horses with them in the 1500s, and that's how they got their horses.

The Spaniards brought horses with them in the 1500s, and that's how they got their horses.

That they're immune, more immune to respiratory infections. So anyway, yeah.

That they're immune, more immune to respiratory infections. So anyway, yeah.

Well, I don't know how long distemper goes back. The other thing with the pronghorn, I mean, I just came from hunting wolves. I mean, hunting birds. We were seeing pronghorn everywhere. Antelope.

Well, I don't know how long distemper goes back. The other thing with the pronghorn, I mean, I just came from hunting wolves. I mean, hunting birds. We were seeing pronghorn everywhere. Antelope.

I love them, but they're really prehistoric. And do you know why they run at 60 miles an hour?

I love them, but they're really prehistoric. And do you know why they run at 60 miles an hour?

Exactly. Yeah. The cheetahs whittled the limbs of the antelope. What is that?

Exactly. Yeah. The cheetahs whittled the limbs of the antelope. What is that?

They got to be 60 miles an hour to run a cheetah. Not wolves, not bears.

They got to be 60 miles an hour to run a cheetah. Not wolves, not bears.

I've read that. I mean, I would love to be a paleontologist. There's so many things I would like to do again and do over.

I've read that. I mean, I would love to be a paleontologist. There's so many things I would like to do again and do over.

We still have to listen to people, experts, and do a lot of reading and think for ourselves.

We still have to listen to people, experts, and do a lot of reading and think for ourselves.

Can I read you just a 30-second introductory paragraph? Sure. Then it'll give you and your readers a flavor of what it's about. So it's a memoir. It's all real. It's not a forward introduction. There we go. Okay. Let's see if I can see it. Do you need glasses? I got glasses.

Can I read you just a 30-second introductory paragraph? Sure. Then it'll give you and your readers a flavor of what it's about. So it's a memoir. It's all real. It's not a forward introduction. There we go. Okay. Let's see if I can see it. Do you need glasses? I got glasses.

Sorry, should have had them ready.

Sorry, should have had them ready.

Hang on.

Hang on.

Yes, yes.

Yes, yes.

No.

No.

No, there's a story there too.

No, there's a story there too.

We can talk about that after. Let's just be 30 seconds.

We can talk about that after. Let's just be 30 seconds.

My pickup banged and rattled along the potholed inside road in the northwest corner of Glacier National Park. Boxes of wolf traps and jars of bait slid across the truck bed. I was in a hurry. My mind focused on the wolf caught in a trap somewhere ahead in the lodgepole pine forest. Out of the corner of my eye, I noticed motion in my rearview mirror.

My pickup banged and rattled along the potholed inside road in the northwest corner of Glacier National Park. Boxes of wolf traps and jars of bait slid across the truck bed. I was in a hurry. My mind focused on the wolf caught in a trap somewhere ahead in the lodgepole pine forest. Out of the corner of my eye, I noticed motion in my rearview mirror.

I looked up to catch the glassy reflection of vivid yellow eyes framed by a wolf's black face looking over my shoulder from the back seat. How did I get here?

I looked up to catch the glassy reflection of vivid yellow eyes framed by a wolf's black face looking over my shoulder from the back seat. How did I get here?

That's the opening for my book. It's not a tiger.

That's the opening for my book. It's not a tiger.

So you asked me about?

So you asked me about?

So the audiobook. So when I signed my contract, this is my debut book, A Woman Among Wolves. I've not written a book. I've published scores of scientific articles, but not a book. I signed the contract. I love working with Greystone. They're a fantastic publisher. It's just a standard contract. I signed away the rights for movie, audio, etc., etc., but I get a share of the royalties and stuff.

So the audiobook. So when I signed my contract, this is my debut book, A Woman Among Wolves. I've not written a book. I've published scores of scientific articles, but not a book. I signed the contract. I love working with Greystone. They're a fantastic publisher. It's just a standard contract. I signed away the rights for movie, audio, etc., etc., but I get a share of the royalties and stuff.

So when... Somebody bought the bid on and bought the media rights for audiobooks months before it was produced. And I didn't hear about it for a while. And by the time I'd heard about it, they had just started producing it. And I said, well, I'd like to read for it. I sent off an audio tape of my voice. And looks like they would need to do a bunch of polishing. And it was almost September.

So when... Somebody bought the bid on and bought the media rights for audiobooks months before it was produced. And I didn't hear about it for a while. And by the time I'd heard about it, they had just started producing it. And I said, well, I'd like to read for it. I sent off an audio tape of my voice. And looks like they would need to do a bunch of polishing. And it was almost September.

That does happen, and I saw some in Glacier Park, too. To that end, I'll say there are three times more mountain lions than there are wolves in northwestern Montana.

That does happen, and I saw some in Glacier Park, too. To that end, I'll say there are three times more mountain lions than there are wolves in northwestern Montana.

And I would be recording for weeks.

And I would be recording for weeks.

uh annunciation and i don't know oh they have to teach you how to say it differently i mean i think i'm a pretty fair speaker but just anyway it would take some training and then it would more important it would take up so much time it takes like 80 hours to produce an eight hour audiobook i know but the thing is it's like the authentic version of this book is going to be in your voice

uh annunciation and i don't know oh they have to teach you how to say it differently i mean i think i'm a pretty fair speaker but just anyway it would take some training and then it would more important it would take up so much time it takes like 80 hours to produce an eight hour audiobook i know but the thing is it's like the authentic version of this book is going to be in your voice

Maybe when the rights expire.

Maybe when the rights expire.

I would love that.

I would love that.

They hired a professional actress. The other thing was this happened just before bird hunting season opened in Montana. Sorry.

They hired a professional actress. The other thing was this happened just before bird hunting season opened in Montana. Sorry.

Sorry.

Sorry.

Steve Rinella said the same thing. Like, you made a big mistake, Diane. It's like, I kind of didn't have options. It's okay.

Steve Rinella said the same thing. Like, you made a big mistake, Diane. It's like, I kind of didn't have options. It's okay.

It's been a blast, Joe. Thank you so much for having me as a guest. You just treated me royally. This has been wonderful.

It's been a blast, Joe. Thank you so much for having me as a guest. You just treated me royally. This has been wonderful.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Bye.

Bye.

Two and a half to three. It's been documented.

Two and a half to three. It's been documented.

Yeah. And mountain lions are, on average, a little bit bigger than wolves.

Yeah. And mountain lions are, on average, a little bit bigger than wolves.

Impressive.

Impressive.

Oh, my gosh.

Oh, my gosh.

Did they tree it with hounds?

Did they tree it with hounds?

They're amazing. They're beautiful animals. And I always think when I'm out in the woods, I got a little cabin way up northwest of Montana. I wonder how many times mountain lions have watched me.

They're amazing. They're beautiful animals. And I always think when I'm out in the woods, I got a little cabin way up northwest of Montana. I wonder how many times mountain lions have watched me.

I worry about mountain lions. They're stealthy. I don't worry about wolves. Yeah, you should worry about mountain lions.

I worry about mountain lions. They're stealthy. I don't worry about wolves. Yeah, you should worry about mountain lions.

Yeah, a lot.

Yeah, a lot.

My little cabin is 55 miles off the grid, and it's dry. I don't have any water. I don't have electricity.

My little cabin is 55 miles off the grid, and it's dry. I don't have any water. I don't have electricity.

Mm-mm. It's way off the grid. But I built it. I took down an old historic homestead, and I moved the logs up to where it sits. Okay.

Mm-mm. It's way off the grid. But I built it. I took down an old historic homestead, and I moved the logs up to where it sits. Okay.

Well, no, no. I had help with a lot of friends helped me over the years. It took me seven years from the time I got the logs and had friends help me take it down until it was livable.

Well, no, no. I had help with a lot of friends helped me over the years. It took me seven years from the time I got the logs and had friends help me take it down until it was livable.

What's up? How are you? I am great. Long flight in from Montana, but I'm great. Thank you.

What's up? How are you? I am great. Long flight in from Montana, but I'm great. Thank you.

Long time, because when I had money, I didn't have time, and when I had time, I didn't have money, right, for building it. But I eventually got it done, and a lot of friends, very dear friends helped. But I poured concrete, and I cut logs, and I did everything. But when I built the place... Where was I going with this? Sorry.

Long time, because when I had money, I didn't have time, and when I had time, I didn't have money, right, for building it. But I eventually got it done, and a lot of friends, very dear friends helped. But I poured concrete, and I cut logs, and I did everything. But when I built the place... Where was I going with this? Sorry.

Okay. No electricity, no water. So for years I've lived without, and I haul water from the spring, and in the winter I melt the snow because we get a lot of snow. But three summers ago now, I was there alone, and I fell down the stairs, all the wooden stairs, and I broke the top of my foot. Whew.

Okay. No electricity, no water. So for years I've lived without, and I haul water from the spring, and in the winter I melt the snow because we get a lot of snow. But three summers ago now, I was there alone, and I fell down the stairs, all the wooden stairs, and I broke the top of my foot. Whew.

And I said, you know, this isn't going to be very fun for a while because I got to close up the cabin and I have a propane fridge and stove and I got to undo the propane and empty the fridge. And I got a lot shorter because I'm not going to be back. I got a broken foot. So I'm hobbling around. And I said, OK. Now I'm going to get Starlink.

And I said, you know, this isn't going to be very fun for a while because I got to close up the cabin and I have a propane fridge and stove and I got to undo the propane and empty the fridge. And I got a lot shorter because I'm not going to be back. I got a broken foot. So I'm hobbling around. And I said, OK. Now I'm going to get Starlink.

That was my motivator because if I had a phone, I could have called somebody for help, but I didn't and I couldn't. So after that, then I got on the Starlink. They were still in the beta development, I think. And anyway, I got on. So I have Starlink available to me at my cabin. But only when I choose to turn it on. It's not like if you were to email me or call me up there, you wouldn't get me.

That was my motivator because if I had a phone, I could have called somebody for help, but I didn't and I couldn't. So after that, then I got on the Starlink. They were still in the beta development, I think. And anyway, I got on. So I have Starlink available to me at my cabin. But only when I choose to turn it on. It's not like if you were to email me or call me up there, you wouldn't get me.

And when I choose to turn it on, I get the messages. So it's kind of the best of both worlds. But I don't live there full time anymore. I live in town.

And when I choose to turn it on, I get the messages. So it's kind of the best of both worlds. But I don't live there full time anymore. I live in town.

No, Isle Royale, which is an island in Lake Superior. It's actually technically part of Michigan. They walked over on the frozen Lake Superior ice in the late, like 1949, 50s, early, and they stayed and they got seated there and they had endless amount of moose to kill and eat. So they were kind of a wolf paradise with that. And is it still like that there? Yes.

No, Isle Royale, which is an island in Lake Superior. It's actually technically part of Michigan. They walked over on the frozen Lake Superior ice in the late, like 1949, 50s, early, and they stayed and they got seated there and they had endless amount of moose to kill and eat. So they were kind of a wolf paradise with that. And is it still like that there? Yes.

The new one that's got the router with it. It's incredible.

The new one that's got the router with it. It's incredible.

For better or worse?

For better or worse?

I drilled a well. You did? I didn't hit water.

I drilled a well. You did? I didn't hit water.

I did two, and I didn't hit water twice. But I'm on a creek. I sit on a bluff above a creek, and the water's about 90 to 100 feet straight below me. Oh. And I drilled my wells 140 feet. But it's a really interesting limestone shale in the water. I don't know how it works. I even had a guy witch it for me because I'm a scientist, but what the hell, it might work, right? So they witched the spot.

I did two, and I didn't hit water twice. But I'm on a creek. I sit on a bluff above a creek, and the water's about 90 to 100 feet straight below me. Oh. And I drilled my wells 140 feet. But it's a really interesting limestone shale in the water. I don't know how it works. I even had a guy witch it for me because I'm a scientist, but what the hell, it might work, right? So they witched the spot.

I didn't hit water.

I didn't hit water.

Yeah. Divining rods? Is that what it is? Divining rods, yeah.

Yeah. Divining rods? Is that what it is? Divining rods, yeah.

Like I said, I'm a scientist, but if it might help, why not? But I didn't hit water.

Like I said, I'm a scientist, but if it might help, why not? But I didn't hit water.

Two sticks, sometimes metal, but usually wood, like a willow or something.

Two sticks, sometimes metal, but usually wood, like a willow or something.

I have to tell you. I don't know. And I'm kind of a skeptic on that stuff. But I had somebody do it and we didn't hit water. So it's okay.

I have to tell you. I don't know. And I'm kind of a skeptic on that stuff. But I had somebody do it and we didn't hit water. So it's okay.

It looks like he's got... Those are probably metal, like coat hangers or something. Whoops. Right there.

It looks like he's got... Those are probably metal, like coat hangers or something. Whoops. Right there.

I don't know.

I don't know.

They crossed. And then, of course, but then they're going to go sink and do really well. It might be two feet. It might be 200 feet. I don't know.

They crossed. And then, of course, but then they're going to go sink and do really well. It might be two feet. It might be 200 feet. I don't know.

You know, there may be people in the world who have some kind of a gift. Their electrical lights are different. I don't know how it works. I have been told that I can be a woman of science and superstition.

You know, there may be people in the world who have some kind of a gift. Their electrical lights are different. I don't know how it works. I have been told that I can be a woman of science and superstition.

Yeah, but I'm not. Usually science wins.

Yeah, but I'm not. Usually science wins.

I can think of twice only in my life, before I built my little cabin, I lived up this very, even more remote outpost called Moose City, loosely Moose City, because it was not a city at all. It was an old homestead with a lot of empty cabins. Twice up there, I got this feeling that there was something dangerous outside. Twice. And something just said to me, don't go outside.

I can think of twice only in my life, before I built my little cabin, I lived up this very, even more remote outpost called Moose City, loosely Moose City, because it was not a city at all. It was an old homestead with a lot of empty cabins. Twice up there, I got this feeling that there was something dangerous outside. Twice. And something just said to me, don't go outside.

And I'm not afraid of anything. I mean, I spent my life dealing with wolves and grizzly bears and angry humans. But I listen to those feelings because I don't know any different. Why not? Why not listen to it? Like, I think we have some primordial part of our brains. I don't know if you ever had that happen. Do you want to have been out walking or hunting?

And I'm not afraid of anything. I mean, I spent my life dealing with wolves and grizzly bears and angry humans. But I listen to those feelings because I don't know any different. Why not? Why not listen to it? Like, I think we have some primordial part of our brains. I don't know if you ever had that happen. Do you want to have been out walking or hunting?

Okay.

Okay.

Yeah, and I have no idea what it was. But I've never had that feeling around wildlife. I tend to think it was human. I don't know if we... Oh, you feel like it was human out there? Yeah. I don't know if we can smell and not register in our forebrain what we detect. Maybe it's really primitive. I don't know. I'm just saying I had it happen twice.

Yeah, and I have no idea what it was. But I've never had that feeling around wildlife. I tend to think it was human. I don't know if we... Oh, you feel like it was human out there? Yeah. I don't know if we can smell and not register in our forebrain what we detect. Maybe it's really primitive. I don't know. I'm just saying I had it happen twice.

And the populations of wolves and moose go up and down because, you know, in nature, nothing is here. We always wanted to be here, but it's always doing this. Right. And yeah, they're doing there. And then interestingly, when they when they arrived, they migrated on their own power. There was very little immigration there.

And the populations of wolves and moose go up and down because, you know, in nature, nothing is here. We always wanted to be here, but it's always doing this. Right. And yeah, they're doing there. And then interestingly, when they when they arrived, they migrated on their own power. There was very little immigration there.

Yeah, and I think that's because we're all raised in an urban environment, more or less, nowadays. And so having lots of people around is normal, but to have one person in a pretty remote area, we don't experience that very often anymore.

Yeah, and I think that's because we're all raised in an urban environment, more or less, nowadays. And so having lots of people around is normal, but to have one person in a pretty remote area, we don't experience that very often anymore.

I have a chapter in my book, early in the book, where I describe an event that I've basically been a real private person all my life until this book came out. And once I wrote this book, I had to bring up stories that are very personal to me. And I had an event one night that was terrifying, probably the most terrifying thing that's ever happened in my life. It involved humans.

I have a chapter in my book, early in the book, where I describe an event that I've basically been a real private person all my life until this book came out. And once I wrote this book, I had to bring up stories that are very personal to me. And I had an event one night that was terrifying, probably the most terrifying thing that's ever happened in my life. It involved humans.

So, yeah, I totally get that. People in places where they shouldn't be. What happened? Do you want to read it? Do you want me to spoil it? You want me to do the spoiler thing?

So, yeah, I totally get that. People in places where they shouldn't be. What happened? Do you want to read it? Do you want me to spoil it? You want me to do the spoiler thing?

Okay. I'll just give you the elevator speech part of it. Okay. So I was in my cabin at night. And the dogs started growling. I had very big dogs. I always have dogs. And I looked out my window, and it was winter, and it was cold, and I could see a couple of guys out there lurking around. And I was in the middle of nowhere. And then it kind of digressed from there. So I...

Okay. I'll just give you the elevator speech part of it. Okay. So I was in my cabin at night. And the dogs started growling. I had very big dogs. I always have dogs. And I looked out my window, and it was winter, and it was cold, and I could see a couple of guys out there lurking around. And I was in the middle of nowhere. And then it kind of digressed from there. So I...

For the only first and only time in my life, I pulled a gun on these guys.

For the only first and only time in my life, I pulled a gun on these guys.

Yeah. I was in danger.

Yeah. I was in danger.

Well, they came to pay me a visit.

Well, they came to pay me a visit.

They called me by name, which was really freaky. So you think somebody in the woods walking around scares you? Wait until you see somebody who you don't know who it is and they call you by your first name. That's freaky.

They called me by name, which was really freaky. So you think somebody in the woods walking around scares you? Wait until you see somebody who you don't know who it is and they call you by your first name. That's freaky.

There was a couple of wolves documented showing up here and there, but apparently genetically there was no influx of new genes. So the wolves that came and went didn't breed. And eventually they became so inbred, they started having physical anomalies.

There was a couple of wolves documented showing up here and there, but apparently genetically there was no influx of new genes. So the wolves that came and went didn't breed. And eventually they became so inbred, they started having physical anomalies.

I didn't find out because I pulled a gun on them.

I didn't find out because I pulled a gun on them.

I drove them off. And it was terrifying to me. It was not terrifying at the moment because I was absolutely focused, like predator focused, calm. But after they left, I started to shake. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of after the adrenaline surge happened.

I drove them off. And it was terrifying to me. It was not terrifying at the moment because I was absolutely focused, like predator focused, calm. But after they left, I started to shake. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of after the adrenaline surge happened.

They were drunk.

They were drunk.

Yeah, it wasn't good. And so how did they know who you were? Do you know? Oh, it's a long story. I was working up there. I was kind of a novelty, a young blonde woman. I was only about 25, living alone, studying wolves. And at the time, there were other people coming and going, studying wolves. But at that winter, I was alone. And I had been working—it's a long story—

Yeah, it wasn't good. And so how did they know who you were? Do you know? Oh, it's a long story. I was working up there. I was kind of a novelty, a young blonde woman. I was only about 25, living alone, studying wolves. And at the time, there were other people coming and going, studying wolves. But at that winter, I was alone. And I had been working—it's a long story—

I was working behind the customs station right on the Canadian border, and they were hauling logs down out of Canada, bringing them to the customs station. They would have to transfer the logs to an American truck, and then the Canadian trucks would go back. And I temporarily took a job as the knot bumper at the log deck landing, which means my job was to run a chainsaw, trim off the branches.

I was working behind the customs station right on the Canadian border, and they were hauling logs down out of Canada, bringing them to the customs station. They would have to transfer the logs to an American truck, and then the Canadian trucks would go back. And I temporarily took a job as the knot bumper at the log deck landing, which means my job was to run a chainsaw, trim off the branches.

Trim the length of the log to exactly fit the log bed. Anyway, so I was around. So these loggers knew who I was. And I was, you know, I was cordial enough. But it was two of those guys.

Trim the length of the log to exactly fit the log bed. Anyway, so I was around. So these loggers knew who I was. And I was, you know, I was cordial enough. But it was two of those guys.

Yeah. And I don't, I never told the story until I wrote this book. And I just thought. It's a part of me that's very personal. It's a part of me that I learned from. It's never happened again. And I had one old logger, old Bob. He saw me on the road the next day. I was pretty shook up. And he stopped. We chatted often. and he had seen a wolf. He'd taken a picture of it.

Yeah. And I don't, I never told the story until I wrote this book. And I just thought. It's a part of me that's very personal. It's a part of me that I learned from. It's never happened again. And I had one old logger, old Bob. He saw me on the road the next day. I was pretty shook up. And he stopped. We chatted often. and he had seen a wolf. He'd taken a picture of it.

And eventually, just a few years ago, four or five years ago, they got down to just a father-daughter team and only two wolves left and it was over. And so they wouldn't breed because they don't breed close relatives generally. So they just did a reintroduction to Iowa oil, too. That's been relatively new, just a handful of years.

And eventually, just a few years ago, four or five years ago, they got down to just a father-daughter team and only two wolves left and it was over. And so they wouldn't breed because they don't breed close relatives generally. So they just did a reintroduction to Iowa oil, too. That's been relatively new, just a handful of years.

So anyway, we chat, and he says, so I hear you had some visitors last night. I looked it up, because he's up in his log truck. I said, yeah. He says, you don't have to worry. That won't happen again. He's kind of like watching out for me.

So anyway, we chat, and he says, so I hear you had some visitors last night. I looked it up, because he's up in his log truck. I said, yeah. He says, you don't have to worry. That won't happen again. He's kind of like watching out for me.

Yeah, because we had kind of befriended each other because he'd spotted this wolf and he'd taken pictures of it. Anyway, yeah.

Yeah, because we had kind of befriended each other because he'd spotted this wolf and he'd taken pictures of it. Anyway, yeah.

The logger network, the CB radios. I don't know. I didn't tell anybody. But he knew right away.

The logger network, the CB radios. I don't know. I didn't tell anybody. But he knew right away.

Totally. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, you asked that.

Totally. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, you asked that.

Yeah. They just kill because they kill because they eat.

Yeah. They just kill because they kill because they eat.

People are weird. Yeah. People are creepy. A little sign about their being weird. I love that. Yeah.

People are weird. Yeah. People are creepy. A little sign about their being weird. I love that. Yeah.

Well, off and on. So when I arrived there, I joined a team of young researchers. We were studying wolves and grizzly bears, and we helped each other with their work. So it was done and all that. And then when we ran out of funding, then I was up there alone for about three years. But other than that, there were people coming.

Well, off and on. So when I arrived there, I joined a team of young researchers. We were studying wolves and grizzly bears, and we helped each other with their work. So it was done and all that. And then when we ran out of funding, then I was up there alone for about three years. But other than that, there were people coming.

Well, I had two dogs. I wasn't totally alone. And people were coming and going seasonally. I had summer help and I had winter help, but certainly there wasn't people there on the shoulder season.

Well, I had two dogs. I wasn't totally alone. And people were coming and going seasonally. I had summer help and I had winter help, but certainly there wasn't people there on the shoulder season.

You know, it's interesting because it didn't. Really? Back when I was younger, I was a bit of a misanthrope and I liked being alone. And when I was alone, being alone is different than being lonely. It just is. Now as an older person, I feel different about people. I'm more engaged with people. I enjoy people. So, yeah, I get lonely now, but I didn't back then. I mean, how could you be lonely?

You know, it's interesting because it didn't. Really? Back when I was younger, I was a bit of a misanthrope and I liked being alone. And when I was alone, being alone is different than being lonely. It just is. Now as an older person, I feel different about people. I'm more engaged with people. I enjoy people. So, yeah, I get lonely now, but I didn't back then. I mean, how could you be lonely?

You're living in the majestic mountains and wilderness of Glacier National Park, and everything is new, and there's tracks to find, and on and on and on.

You're living in the majestic mountains and wilderness of Glacier National Park, and everything is new, and there's tracks to find, and on and on and on.

Well, that's why you're really good at what you do, because you're a social person. You like to engage in conversation, but I didn't used to be that way. You wouldn't have wanted to have interviewed me 30 years ago, let's put it that way. Really? Yeah. I bet we would have worked out. It would have been all right. It would have worked out. I'm more conversational now.

Well, that's why you're really good at what you do, because you're a social person. You like to engage in conversation, but I didn't used to be that way. You wouldn't have wanted to have interviewed me 30 years ago, let's put it that way. Really? Yeah. I bet we would have worked out. It would have been all right. It would have worked out. I'm more conversational now.

Oh, good. Oh, good. You got to watch it.

Oh, good. Oh, good. You got to watch it.

So they had to reboost the population if they wanted to keep them going or wait for the lake to freeze again, which may or may not happen in our lifetimes, you know.

So they had to reboost the population if they wanted to keep them going or wait for the lake to freeze again, which may or may not happen in our lifetimes, you know.

Yes. And it's sort of like, it's like when I go, I go up to my cabin for a visit. No, I no longer live there full time, but I live there a couple of months a year, maybe three, maybe usually two. When I go up, it takes me like three to four days to decompress and get back into the mode of, oh, I can't call. Oh, I can't go on the internet. Do I want to hook up this darling? No. No.

Yes. And it's sort of like, it's like when I go, I go up to my cabin for a visit. No, I no longer live there full time, but I live there a couple of months a year, maybe three, maybe usually two. When I go up, it takes me like three to four days to decompress and get back into the mode of, oh, I can't call. Oh, I can't go on the internet. Do I want to hook up this darling? No. No.

Go out and just sit outside and have a cup of tea and listen to the crick and then think about what you're going to do for the day. Go on a hike. But it takes me a few days now to get to that frame of mind. It doesn't. It's not instant anymore. So I've changed who I am.

Go out and just sit outside and have a cup of tea and listen to the crick and then think about what you're going to do for the day. Go on a hike. But it takes me a few days now to get to that frame of mind. It doesn't. It's not instant anymore. So I've changed who I am.

I did that, but I bought stuff in town and I would buy a lot in November while I could still drive in because sometimes in the winter you couldn't drive in anymore. So I would stock up and buy, you know, three, four hundred pounds of dog food and Bulk supplies of flour and oats, and I canned. Back then, I actually did some canning. Now, I don't have time. I don't care about it.

I did that, but I bought stuff in town and I would buy a lot in November while I could still drive in because sometimes in the winter you couldn't drive in anymore. So I would stock up and buy, you know, three, four hundred pounds of dog food and Bulk supplies of flour and oats, and I canned. Back then, I actually did some canning. Now, I don't have time. I don't care about it.

I can buy canned peaches or whatever. And I never grew a food garden because of the bears.

I can buy canned peaches or whatever. And I never grew a food garden because of the bears.

See, I didn't want to attract grizzlies.

See, I didn't want to attract grizzlies.

So I didn't grow food except lettuce.

So I didn't grow food except lettuce.

They're always there, but you don't see them very often. So it's sort of like all the wild things that are up there are pretty wild. And there weren't a lot of people up there then. Now everybody's discovered Montana and there's people everywhere.

They're always there, but you don't see them very often. So it's sort of like all the wild things that are up there are pretty wild. And there weren't a lot of people up there then. Now everybody's discovered Montana and there's people everywhere.

I mean, I've just come back from bird hunting. I just was 31 days on the road and I just got home three days ago and now I'm here. And I was out bird hunting with friends and I said, I told them, I said, so when I hunt with my pointers, I got a griffon and a wire hair. I said, don't talk. Don't call the dog's name. Don't holler about it.

I mean, I've just come back from bird hunting. I just was 31 days on the road and I just got home three days ago and now I'm here. And I was out bird hunting with friends and I said, I told them, I said, so when I hunt with my pointers, I got a griffon and a wire hair. I said, don't talk. Don't call the dog's name. Don't holler about it.

Just watch and enjoy and smell and feel what goes on and trust the dogs. If you see them getting birdie, get ready. Because so many times you hunt with people and they're hacking their dog, they're calling, they're hollering, they're talking to you about something going on over here. Hey, did you watch the Vikings game? Well, nobody watches the Vikings game. Anyway, did you watch this or that?

Just watch and enjoy and smell and feel what goes on and trust the dogs. If you see them getting birdie, get ready. Because so many times you hunt with people and they're hacking their dog, they're calling, they're hollering, they're talking to you about something going on over here. Hey, did you watch the Vikings game? Well, nobody watches the Vikings game. Anyway, did you watch this or that?

It's like we're out there seeking a smart bird that has ears. Watch the dogs. So I feel that way when I'm out living in the wild, too, with hiking. I'm not going to see elk or bears or even fox if you're yammering away.

It's like we're out there seeking a smart bird that has ears. Watch the dogs. So I feel that way when I'm out living in the wild, too, with hiking. I'm not going to see elk or bears or even fox if you're yammering away.

That's why I like being alone.

That's why I like being alone.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, you know, and it's fun to interact. I mean, but even when I go to Yellowstone, I go to Yellowstone at least a couple times a year to watch wolves. I love the wolf watchers. They're so enthusiastic. But something's going on and you can't take a video because everybody's talking.

Yeah. Yeah, you know, and it's fun to interact. I mean, but even when I go to Yellowstone, I go to Yellowstone at least a couple times a year to watch wolves. I love the wolf watchers. They're so enthusiastic. But something's going on and you can't take a video because everybody's talking.

Even if the wolves are howling, you have to go, shh.

Even if the wolves are howling, you have to go, shh.

No. So in my book, I've got a chapter called Slaying the Super Wolf. And so people call these wolves super wolves because they say that they're not native. They're Canadian super wolves and they weigh 170 pounds and it goes on and on and on. But I documented a wolf that I caught in the Glacier Park area, Wolf 8551. And we just had VHF collars. We didn't have satellite collars in those days.

No. So in my book, I've got a chapter called Slaying the Super Wolf. And so people call these wolves super wolves because they say that they're not native. They're Canadian super wolves and they weigh 170 pounds and it goes on and on and on. But I documented a wolf that I caught in the Glacier Park area, Wolf 8551. And we just had VHF collars. We didn't have satellite collars in those days.

That's probably at Mammoth Gardener area. That happens all the time up there.

That's probably at Mammoth Gardener area. That happens all the time up there.

The same thing's happened to the wolves in Yellowstone because they were taken from Canada where they don't see people and they had no exposure to livestock. They're very wild at first. And then they can't get away from humans. So after a while, they just start disregarding people.

The same thing's happened to the wolves in Yellowstone because they were taken from Canada where they don't see people and they had no exposure to livestock. They're very wild at first. And then they can't get away from humans. So after a while, they just start disregarding people.

And like if they have to cross the road, there's a wolf jam and everybody's crowding with their cars and they're trying to bring their pups across the road to a better spot. And they can't even get through because of everybody. So they get kind of laissez-faire about it and they get used to people, conditioned or habituated people. And that's passed on to the next generation next.

And like if they have to cross the road, there's a wolf jam and everybody's crowding with their cars and they're trying to bring their pups across the road to a better spot. And they can't even get through because of everybody. So they get kind of laissez-faire about it and they get used to people, conditioned or habituated people. And that's passed on to the next generation next.

And then when they leave the park and they go outside the park and they walk down some open public land spot where there's a hunter with a rifle, they don't think anything about it. So they're pretty easy targets.

And then when they leave the park and they go outside the park and they walk down some open public land spot where there's a hunter with a rifle, they don't think anything about it. So they're pretty easy targets.

I know. And yeah, it's tough. And the unfortunate thing is a couple of years ago, there were 25 Yellowstone wolves killed just outside of the park because they're used to people and they wander around. Anyway, that's like out of 100. So it's about a quarter of the population. And there were a couple of particular individual wolves that were very well recognized and

I know. And yeah, it's tough. And the unfortunate thing is a couple of years ago, there were 25 Yellowstone wolves killed just outside of the park because they're used to people and they wander around. Anyway, that's like out of 100. So it's about a quarter of the population. And there were a couple of particular individual wolves that were very well recognized and

loved by the wolf masses and photographed and they got killed and this this just went viral and this huge hatred for these people who shot these wolves because they were so special and I make the point when I give talks and stuff I said you know if you really feel that strongly it's

loved by the wolf masses and photographed and they got killed and this this just went viral and this huge hatred for these people who shot these wolves because they were so special and I make the point when I give talks and stuff I said you know if you really feel that strongly it's

You should really be concerned because every year there's about 300 wolves shot that way in Montana, but you don't know them. They're not famous. They have just as important of lives. They live, die, eat, breathe, get injured, heal up. The same as these movie star wolves in Yellowstone. And you should feel that way about, oh, wolves, in my mind. Oh, yeah. In my mind.

You should really be concerned because every year there's about 300 wolves shot that way in Montana, but you don't know them. They're not famous. They have just as important of lives. They live, die, eat, breathe, get injured, heal up. The same as these movie star wolves in Yellowstone. And you should feel that way about, oh, wolves, in my mind. Oh, yeah. In my mind.

Right, yeah, yeah, the dentist. Dina Dentist killed him, right?

Right, yeah, yeah, the dentist. Dina Dentist killed him, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And she hung around for a while and then she just disappeared. And seven months later, the British Columbia Environmental Ministry game warden called me. He says, we got one of your wolves killed. Do you want to call her? Yes, please. Where is it? Puskupe. I said, oh, where is that? Well, it turns out that is 540 miles north of Glacier Park in seven months. Wow.

And she hung around for a while and then she just disappeared. And seven months later, the British Columbia Environmental Ministry game warden called me. He says, we got one of your wolves killed. Do you want to call her? Yes, please. Where is it? Puskupe. I said, oh, where is that? Well, it turns out that is 540 miles north of Glacier Park in seven months. Wow.

It is bizarre. Thank you for understanding that. I forgot about Cecil. But when we were first... monitoring the wolves and glacier. There was just a handful and we would catch them and we would give them names because it's easier. Like Phyllis was wolf 8550 and Mojave was wolf 8963. They had both names and numbers. And so when we did our scientific papers and reports, we used a number.

It is bizarre. Thank you for understanding that. I forgot about Cecil. But when we were first... monitoring the wolves and glacier. There was just a handful and we would catch them and we would give them names because it's easier. Like Phyllis was wolf 8550 and Mojave was wolf 8963. They had both names and numbers. And so when we did our scientific papers and reports, we used a number.

Because we were told by the officials that we don't want you to name the animals because what happens when Phyllis kills a cow, if that happens?

Because we were told by the officials that we don't want you to name the animals because what happens when Phyllis kills a cow, if that happens?

Then you can't manage Phyllis. So we went along with it, but we used the names and we did the scientific stuff with numbers. But then when you go into the park, people would want to know what's going on. You need to talk about these different wolf numbers, 86, 54. And they say, well, who is that? Oh, that's Aspen. Oh, yeah. And they would know by the name. So whatever works.

Then you can't manage Phyllis. So we went along with it, but we used the names and we did the scientific stuff with numbers. But then when you go into the park, people would want to know what's going on. You need to talk about these different wolf numbers, 86, 54. And they say, well, who is that? Oh, that's Aspen. Oh, yeah. And they would know by the name. So whatever works.

Yes, and I know the wolves in Yellowstone, they don't have names, they have numbers, but they're so identifiable by 907 or whatever that it becomes like a name.

Yes, and I know the wolves in Yellowstone, they don't have names, they have numbers, but they're so identifiable by 907 or whatever that it becomes like a name.

Even though it's still a number.

Even though it's still a number.

Right. It's like, oh. Jericho, yeah.

Right. It's like, oh. Jericho, yeah.

You know, it's been interesting to me because for my career, I've done everything. My first year, my first job, I worked up in northern Minnesota in a little tiny 300-person farming community. And I was hired, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, to go in and help farm.

You know, it's been interesting to me because for my career, I've done everything. My first year, my first job, I worked up in northern Minnesota in a little tiny 300-person farming community. And I was hired, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, to go in and help farm.

prevent livestock depredation and when wolves killed cattle or sheep to go in and remove which meant trapping hollowing and they were euthanized and when there weren't depredations to go out and research traps and put collars on the other wolves and it was I mean this was big stuff for a girl from Minneapolis pretty naive to go up and save the folks of North Home from the wolves you know oh my god

prevent livestock depredation and when wolves killed cattle or sheep to go in and remove which meant trapping hollowing and they were euthanized and when there weren't depredations to go out and research traps and put collars on the other wolves and it was I mean this was big stuff for a girl from Minneapolis pretty naive to go up and save the folks of North Home from the wolves you know oh my god

It was such an important summer for me to learn professionally and personally. And I wrote about that. But I learned a lot. And it was interesting work. But I realized, yeah, wolves can cause conflicts for people. And it was a new concept for me.

It was such an important summer for me to learn professionally and personally. And I wrote about that. But I learned a lot. And it was interesting work. But I realized, yeah, wolves can cause conflicts for people. And it was a new concept for me.

Well, they would be me because I was the one catching and trapping me.

Well, they would be me because I was the one catching and trapping me.

Right. So I had to bring them to the main office in Grand Rapids, Minnesota, where they were euthanized. So prior to that, in 1978, you couldn't euthanize wolves. They changed the status from endangered to threatened. And so when they were threatened— then under Endangered Species Act, you could actually euthanize them. And they didn't translocate them.

Right. So I had to bring them to the main office in Grand Rapids, Minnesota, where they were euthanized. So prior to that, in 1978, you couldn't euthanize wolves. They changed the status from endangered to threatened. And so when they were threatened— then under Endangered Species Act, you could actually euthanize them. And they didn't translocate them.

This is a really good question because they found over the years with studies in Minnesota and eventually in Montana too, that when you translocate or move a wolf who's causing a problem, That wolf very, very rarely survives to reproduce because it gets killed by other wolves. It comes back to depredate again. It moves on to another farm or ranch and does it again.

This is a really good question because they found over the years with studies in Minnesota and eventually in Montana too, that when you translocate or move a wolf who's causing a problem, That wolf very, very rarely survives to reproduce because it gets killed by other wolves. It comes back to depredate again. It moves on to another farm or ranch and does it again.

They don't generally survive, and so it was determined that it makes officials feel good to move them, and it's a good facade for the public to believe in, but sometimes it results in a pretty prolonged and inhumane existence for a few months or a year until they die anyway. So, yeah, it's...

They don't generally survive, and so it was determined that it makes officials feel good to move them, and it's a good facade for the public to believe in, but sometimes it results in a pretty prolonged and inhumane existence for a few months or a year until they die anyway. So, yeah, it's...

So we didn't know if the guy, a farmer, shot it in July. If they hadn't shot it, we would never have known what happened to her. But if she would have gone south instead of north, she'd have been about 100 miles south of Yellowstone Park. So clearly they have the ability to disperse that far. The other interesting thing about that wolf is

So we didn't know if the guy, a farmer, shot it in July. If they hadn't shot it, we would never have known what happened to her. But if she would have gone south instead of north, she'd have been about 100 miles south of Yellowstone Park. So clearly they have the ability to disperse that far. The other interesting thing about that wolf is

It's tough once they learn to take cattle or sheep. It's tough to break that pattern. Let's put it that way.

It's tough once they learn to take cattle or sheep. It's tough to break that pattern. Let's put it that way.

Well, yeah. I mean, if it was me out there walking around and I had a choice between a deer that's going to kick me in the teeth or taking the cow, I'd pick the slow, dumb groceries every time. It's just me.

Well, yeah. I mean, if it was me out there walking around and I had a choice between a deer that's going to kick me in the teeth or taking the cow, I'd pick the slow, dumb groceries every time. It's just me.

Exactly.

Exactly.

So it's a difficult challenge and wolves are continuing to expand everywhere in the West, the Midwest, Europe. And so there's more and more challenges, and a lot of the early excitement about wolves has changed into a bitter battle. Yeah.

So it's a difficult challenge and wolves are continuing to expand everywhere in the West, the Midwest, Europe. And so there's more and more challenges, and a lot of the early excitement about wolves has changed into a bitter battle. Yeah.

95, 96, and then 96, 97. Those winters.

95, 96, and then 96, 97. Those winters.

Yes. And so kind of the die was cast when those wolves were removed. And basically by the 1930s, there really weren't viable populations in the West anymore. There are wolves here or there in a pack here or there, but there weren't thousands. And they went inside the national parks. They have a picture in many books of rangers with cute little wolf pups that are like seven, eight weeks old.

Yes. And so kind of the die was cast when those wolves were removed. And basically by the 1930s, there really weren't viable populations in the West anymore. There are wolves here or there in a pack here or there, but there weren't thousands. And they went inside the national parks. They have a picture in many books of rangers with cute little wolf pups that are like seven, eight weeks old.

And they took the pictures. This was in 1926. And then they killed them all. So they even removed all the predators within national parks. So people, historic memory, you know, we have really short memories. Historic memory of, say, for example, the northern range, northern herd range of elk out of Gardner. It was about 20,000 before the wolves were introduced. Way over carrying capacity.

And they took the pictures. This was in 1926. And then they killed them all. So they even removed all the predators within national parks. So people, historic memory, you know, we have really short memories. Historic memory of, say, for example, the northern range, northern herd range of elk out of Gardner. It was about 20,000 before the wolves were introduced. Way over carrying capacity.

Elk were starving. The browse lines as high up as they could reach, they ate everything they could eat. They were paying people, people were being paid to come in and kill deer and elk. And then they started the late hunting seasons out of Gardner, which I went in because my boyfriend at the time had a tag.

Elk were starving. The browse lines as high up as they could reach, they ate everything they could eat. They were paying people, people were being paid to come in and kill deer and elk. And then they started the late hunting seasons out of Gardner, which I went in because my boyfriend at the time had a tag.

And they just have a shooting line in February and kill all these elk because they aren't going to make it anyway. And so you shoot a starving cow in February because it wasn't predators. So then when the wolves came back, two things happened. Number one, it was a new predator. But number two, in the winter of 96, 97, we had some of the deepest snows ever recorded in the mountains, ever.

And they just have a shooting line in February and kill all these elk because they aren't going to make it anyway. And so you shoot a starving cow in February because it wasn't predators. So then when the wolves came back, two things happened. Number one, it was a new predator. But number two, in the winter of 96, 97, we had some of the deepest snows ever recorded in the mountains, ever.

And so many of the herd died from snowfall. And I've had hunters tell me, yeah, the population elk went from 20,000 to 10,000 in two years. Damn those wolves. And it's like, do you think 35 wolves killed 10,000 elk? Come on. Let's just do the math a minute.

And so many of the herd died from snowfall. And I've had hunters tell me, yeah, the population elk went from 20,000 to 10,000 in two years. Damn those wolves. And it's like, do you think 35 wolves killed 10,000 elk? Come on. Let's just do the math a minute.

is when she went north, they got the reintroduced wolves from two areas, from Hinton in Alberta and Fort St. John's in British Columbia. And she dispersed past the Hinton population and ended up almost at where the Fort St. John's wolves were. So this little wolf, 80-pound wolf, showed us that it's one continuous population from Yellowstone almost to the Yukon.

is when she went north, they got the reintroduced wolves from two areas, from Hinton in Alberta and Fort St. John's in British Columbia. And she dispersed past the Hinton population and ended up almost at where the Fort St. John's wolves were. So this little wolf, 80-pound wolf, showed us that it's one continuous population from Yellowstone almost to the Yukon.

And I'm a hunter. I get it.

And I'm a hunter. I get it.

From what? Snow. Yeah.

From what? Snow. Yeah.

I would say, to the best of my knowledge as a biologist, that winter die-off is the limiting factor for ungulate herds. It's not lions and bears and wolves and humans and cars. Every so often, every 20 years or whatever, you get a massive winter die-off. And it takes quite a while for those populations to build back up. Predators can keep that at a lower rate. They cannot affect it.

I would say, to the best of my knowledge as a biologist, that winter die-off is the limiting factor for ungulate herds. It's not lions and bears and wolves and humans and cars. Every so often, every 20 years or whatever, you get a massive winter die-off. And it takes quite a while for those populations to build back up. Predators can keep that at a lower rate. They cannot affect it.

I have to think back to what people say about wolves killing all the deer now. I think if you look to statistics in Montana and Wyoming, which both have had a lot of wolves for a couple decades, they're giving away more elk permits. I was just reading they proposed unlimited elk permits in Wyoming, and Montana's got basically in most of its management units more elk than ever.

I have to think back to what people say about wolves killing all the deer now. I think if you look to statistics in Montana and Wyoming, which both have had a lot of wolves for a couple decades, they're giving away more elk permits. I was just reading they proposed unlimited elk permits in Wyoming, and Montana's got basically in most of its management units more elk than ever.

And I just say there's more going on than wolves. And to point your finger at wolves all the time, you need to look at habitat. You need to look at access issues. You know, there's a lot of places where hunters want to go shoot these elk, but they're on large private ranches and you can't get on them.

And I just say there's more going on than wolves. And to point your finger at wolves all the time, you need to look at habitat. You need to look at access issues. You know, there's a lot of places where hunters want to go shoot these elk, but they're on large private ranches and you can't get on them.

Right. I mean, if the viewers can think of imagining a checkerboard and you're trying to get from one black square to the next black square, but you have to step over a tiny piece of white square to get there, right?

Right. I mean, if the viewers can think of imagining a checkerboard and you're trying to get from one black square to the next black square, but you have to step over a tiny piece of white square to get there, right?

It's being battled in court right now.

It's being battled in court right now.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, that would be good. And some ranchers do. But many people have been in this business four or five generations on their family ranch. And they've had bad experiences with hunters that come in and cut their fences, shoot their cows, leave their gates open. And they just say, I'm done. I'm closed. And they get really angry.

Well, that would be good. And some ranchers do. But many people have been in this business four or five generations on their family ranch. And they've had bad experiences with hunters that come in and cut their fences, shoot their cows, leave their gates open. And they just say, I'm done. I'm closed. And they get really angry.

Thanks, and I'm excited, too, because I thought, well, we're both hunters, we're both dog lovers, you've got an interest in wolves. It's all good.

Thanks, and I'm excited, too, because I thought, well, we're both hunters, we're both dog lovers, you've got an interest in wolves. It's all good.

I just hunted on a guy's ranch about a week ago up in north central Montana. And he owns 60 sections. That's 60 square miles of land, which may not be a big place in Texas, but for most of the rest of the world. That's huge. It's huge. And he gave us permission, but... He had to tell us all the challenges he's had and why he had a big sign, don't even ask, basically. Right.

I just hunted on a guy's ranch about a week ago up in north central Montana. And he owns 60 sections. That's 60 square miles of land, which may not be a big place in Texas, but for most of the rest of the world. That's huge. It's huge. And he gave us permission, but... He had to tell us all the challenges he's had and why he had a big sign, don't even ask, basically. Right.

But I know he was going to let us because some other friends of mine had hunted there. But he had all these heartburns over things that had happened to him. Hunters gave him a really bad taste in their mouth at night.

But I know he was going to let us because some other friends of mine had hunted there. But he had all these heartburns over things that had happened to him. Hunters gave him a really bad taste in their mouth at night.

I, as a single individual person, can't do a lot about it, and I'd like to see, you know, hunting organizations, many really good ones, help promote better hunter behavior and better hunter-landowner relationships. You would be very generous to do that, but most people will not give an easement.

I, as a single individual person, can't do a lot about it, and I'd like to see, you know, hunting organizations, many really good ones, help promote better hunter behavior and better hunter-landowner relationships. You would be very generous to do that, but most people will not give an easement.

It's connected because it's a walkabout for a wolf. It's not a big deal. We just didn't back then, we didn't have the tools to document kind of those long dispersals. But I just read this week that a wolf that showed up in Colorado that was shot this year, they just did the DNA on it apparently pretty recently, and it was from the Midwest. Think about that, to Colorado. Wow.

It's connected because it's a walkabout for a wolf. It's not a big deal. We just didn't back then, we didn't have the tools to document kind of those long dispersals. But I just read this week that a wolf that showed up in Colorado that was shot this year, they just did the DNA on it apparently pretty recently, and it was from the Midwest. Think about that, to Colorado. Wow.

That happens.

That happens.

It's just like any other group of people. Like anything else. Exactly. Yep. Exactly. And I know in my business with wolves, I've always tried to be very transparent. I'm very honest. And if somebody asks me a question, I'll give them the best information I have. If I don't know an answer, I'll say, I don't know. But, you know, you could call so-and-so who's maybe had the experience with that.

It's just like any other group of people. Like anything else. Exactly. Yep. Exactly. And I know in my business with wolves, I've always tried to be very transparent. I'm very honest. And if somebody asks me a question, I'll give them the best information I have. If I don't know an answer, I'll say, I don't know. But, you know, you could call so-and-so who's maybe had the experience with that.

I got nothing to hide by being dishonest or trying to sell somebody. It's like hunting impacts of wolves on hunting animals. You look at populations and they go like this all the time. And sometimes wolves cause it, sometimes not. Sometimes it's winter. Sometimes it's accumulation of lions and bears and wolves. But it's like the stock market. People want to see it do this.

I got nothing to hide by being dishonest or trying to sell somebody. It's like hunting impacts of wolves on hunting animals. You look at populations and they go like this all the time. And sometimes wolves cause it, sometimes not. Sometimes it's winter. Sometimes it's accumulation of lions and bears and wolves. But it's like the stock market. People want to see it do this.

Exactly. Yeah.

Exactly. Yeah.

We're facing interesting times.

We're facing interesting times.

I think the hardest thing is so much social media. Everything goes on instantly and whether it's true or not.

I think the hardest thing is so much social media. Everything goes on instantly and whether it's true or not.

And that film or the video ran viral big time. But there's no one species that's going to make or break the world except maybe people.

And that film or the video ran viral big time. But there's no one species that's going to make or break the world except maybe people.

But in terms of the impacts, no. And it's been shown since that video came out, the movie, that that might be true in a short time period in small places. But it's not the global picture for Yellowstone Park. Wolves have not saved the planet. They just haven't. It's just not that simple. Right.

But in terms of the impacts, no. And it's been shown since that video came out, the movie, that that might be true in a short time period in small places. But it's not the global picture for Yellowstone Park. Wolves have not saved the planet. They just haven't. It's just not that simple. Right.

I think, yes. So you can go either way. And I think people who are out on either extreme... can actually make people in the middle more involved with conservation efforts. Like that guy with the movie. Well, it's a rosy story, and pieces of it may be true in certain places for a temporal or spatial time period.

I think, yes. So you can go either way. And I think people who are out on either extreme... can actually make people in the middle more involved with conservation efforts. Like that guy with the movie. Well, it's a rosy story, and pieces of it may be true in certain places for a temporal or spatial time period.

But then there's the guy in, where was it, Daniels, Wyoming, who roared over that wolf in the snowmobile and crippled it. You heard about this, didn't you?

But then there's the guy in, where was it, Daniels, Wyoming, who roared over that wolf in the snowmobile and crippled it. You heard about this, didn't you?

And then he brought it back. Crippled. To the bar.

And then he brought it back. Crippled. To the bar.

And had it in the bar so people could be entertained for an hour before they took it out back and shot it. Now, that's a pretty horrific thing, whether it's a deer or a moth lion or an owl. Or any animal. It's horrible. Any animal. But that horrific act got a lot of people in the middle fired up to become more strong conservationists. So I'm sorry that that happened.

And had it in the bar so people could be entertained for an hour before they took it out back and shot it. Now, that's a pretty horrific thing, whether it's a deer or a moth lion or an owl. Or any animal. It's horrible. Any animal. But that horrific act got a lot of people in the middle fired up to become more strong conservationists. So I'm sorry that that happened.

But on the other hand, it brings a lot of awareness to people who are not aware of the level of capacity of people to be stupid. Right.

But on the other hand, it brings a lot of awareness to people who are not aware of the level of capacity of people to be stupid. Right.

Yeah. Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan. It just said the Great Lakes region. It didn't just identify because they're all kind of the same. But it was not a Western wolf. It was not from Wyoming or Montana. Really interesting.

Yeah. Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan. It just said the Great Lakes region. It didn't just identify because they're all kind of the same. But it was not a Western wolf. It was not from Wyoming or Montana. Really interesting.

That's evil.

That's evil.

Right.

Right.

Well, I mean, he ran it over intentionally and he had a gun.

Well, I mean, he ran it over intentionally and he had a gun.

Oh, yeah, and he had a gun. No, it was all for show.

Oh, yeah, and he had a gun. No, it was all for show.

No.

No.

I thought about this a lot. So why wolves? What's the deal with wolves? Why does it create that? If you look at the facts, I mean, elk, coyotes, lions, bears, coke machines, whatever, kill people, lightning, every year, lots of people.

I thought about this a lot. So why wolves? What's the deal with wolves? Why does it create that? If you look at the facts, I mean, elk, coyotes, lions, bears, coke machines, whatever, kill people, lightning, every year, lots of people.

Wolves, it would be a very rare experience. It occasionally happens, but it's so much rarer than everything else. And yet people don't hate lions or grizzly bears.

Wolves, it would be a very rare experience. It occasionally happens, but it's so much rarer than everything else. And yet people don't hate lions or grizzly bears.

Okay, let's hear it.

Okay, let's hear it.

No way. So I haven't seen it.

No way. So I haven't seen it.

I'll have to look that up because I haven't actually heard of it.

I'll have to look that up because I haven't actually heard of it.

I'd like to know where the references are. Thanks.

I'd like to know where the references are. Thanks.

Close enough.

Close enough.

Yeah, I'm reading it too. I just would say... You're a little skeptical? I'm very skeptical.

Yeah, I'm reading it too. I just would say... You're a little skeptical? I'm very skeptical.

But we're looking at news stories from 110 years ago. I know.

But we're looking at news stories from 110 years ago. I know.

Right.

Right.

I'm just saying.

I'm just saying.

No, I'm not a little skeptical. I'm very skeptical.

No, I'm not a little skeptical. I'm very skeptical.

I know.

I know.

No, and I read the literature.

No, and I read the literature.

So my question about this story, and I'm not, I'm just saying I'm skeptical. Largest wolf pack.

So my question about this story, and I'm not, I'm just saying I'm skeptical. Largest wolf pack.

So what's the source?

So what's the source?

Well, I'd love to look up more detail, but I can tell you about the news source, and I'm not familiar with that, and I don't read that kind of stuff usually, but... If it's true, it's true. I don't happen to believe it's true. But what I can tell you about the true about wolf biology is wolves live in packs that are generally a family group. They have a genetic investment in their pack members.

Well, I'd love to look up more detail, but I can tell you about the news source, and I'm not familiar with that, and I don't read that kind of stuff usually, but... If it's true, it's true. I don't happen to believe it's true. But what I can tell you about the true about wolf biology is wolves live in packs that are generally a family group. They have a genetic investment in their pack members.

There's oftentimes one or two that aren't related. And they defend that territory to the death, whether there's five of them or 25 of them. And that would be a large pack. The largest pack I've ever heard of was in Yellowstone. I think it was 34 because three females had pups in it.

There's oftentimes one or two that aren't related. And they defend that territory to the death, whether there's five of them or 25 of them. And that would be a large pack. The largest pack I've ever heard of was in Yellowstone. I think it was 34 because three females had pups in it.

What's the benefit to them? They're gathering, collaborating with animals that aren't related to them, that have no genetic benefit, to see them each survive. And normally... packs that are not related kill each other. It's the biggest cause of mortality in Yellowstone Park is wolves killing non-pack members.

What's the benefit to them? They're gathering, collaborating with animals that aren't related to them, that have no genetic benefit, to see them each survive. And normally... packs that are not related kill each other. It's the biggest cause of mortality in Yellowstone Park is wolves killing non-pack members.

Oh, I know.

Oh, I know.

I get what you're saying, but you ask would I believe it, and I have to tell you no, I wouldn't believe it.

I get what you're saying, but you ask would I believe it, and I have to tell you no, I wouldn't believe it.

So if there were 400 wolves that were starving, they would starve, right? I mean, they wouldn't pack.

So if there were 400 wolves that were starving, they would starve, right? I mean, they wouldn't pack.

You're giving them some human reasoning skills. They don't think like humans do. They just don't. And I'm sorry. I'm not. Don't be if I'm not calling you a liar. No, it's not me. I don't know. I'd have to investigate that. But I'm 100 percent skeptical on it. Just because of everything that I'm familiar with. But it doesn't, you know, it stuff happens.

You're giving them some human reasoning skills. They don't think like humans do. They just don't. And I'm sorry. I'm not. Don't be if I'm not calling you a liar. No, it's not me. I don't know. I'd have to investigate that. But I'm 100 percent skeptical on it. Just because of everything that I'm familiar with. But it doesn't, you know, it stuff happens.

You asked me, I just said I don't believe it. I hear you. Beth, I don't have anything to contribute further on that.

You asked me, I just said I don't believe it. I hear you. Beth, I don't have anything to contribute further on that.

I'm a science denier. There you go. I like that.

I'm a science denier. There you go. I like that.

That's great.

That's great.

I have only observed probably 15, but that's not Yellowstone. That's in my history. And I know in Yellowstone, like I said, I know one year they get up to 34. And I think probably the largest I've ever heard of being recorded that I know is factual. It might be 40, but that's extremely unusual.

I have only observed probably 15, but that's not Yellowstone. That's in my history. And I know in Yellowstone, like I said, I know one year they get up to 34. And I think probably the largest I've ever heard of being recorded that I know is factual. It might be 40, but that's extremely unusual.

Might be Canada. I'm trying to remember my source. I can't remember. But 34 in Yellowstone. That's unusual.

Might be Canada. I'm trying to remember my source. I can't remember. But 34 in Yellowstone. That's unusual.

I think, well, three things happened. Three different females had pups. On average, they have six pups, seven pups. So there's recruiting right there, 18, 20 pups right there. In addition to the adults that were there, they had a good year. They had lots of prey. And so all those pups presumably made it to their first year. So for one winter... They were a huge pack, and then mortality happens.

I think, well, three things happened. Three different females had pups. On average, they have six pups, seven pups. So there's recruiting right there, 18, 20 pups right there. In addition to the adults that were there, they had a good year. They had lots of prey. And so all those pups presumably made it to their first year. So for one winter... They were a huge pack, and then mortality happens.

Wolves are not designed to live in packs of 34. I mean, packs in the Midwest where the prey is smaller and the wolves are smaller, they live in smaller packs. In Montana, Wyoming, Idaho...

Wolves are not designed to live in packs of 34. I mean, packs in the Midwest where the prey is smaller and the wolves are smaller, they live in smaller packs. In Montana, Wyoming, Idaho...

average pack might be somewhere between 10 and 15 and every year you gotta remember every year they have six to seven pups and by the next spring they're back down that's six or seven through mortality or dispersal or whatever happens hunting yeah so stuff happens yeah it's a hard life It is a hard life.

average pack might be somewhere between 10 and 15 and every year you gotta remember every year they have six to seven pups and by the next spring they're back down that's six or seven through mortality or dispersal or whatever happens hunting yeah so stuff happens yeah it's a hard life It is a hard life.

Another thing, I've heard lots of people, well, I've heard several people, and people I know quite well tell me stories about they encountered a wolf, or they encountered a wolf pack, and they were really frightened because they had their dog with them, and the wolves were interested in the dog, like little Carl there or something, and the wolves were circling around, and these people were terrified.

Another thing, I've heard lots of people, well, I've heard several people, and people I know quite well tell me stories about they encountered a wolf, or they encountered a wolf pack, and they were really frightened because they had their dog with them, and the wolves were interested in the dog, like little Carl there or something, and the wolves were circling around, and these people were terrified.

And when they told me this story, two people, they told me this story, and they said, yeah, they could have killed me. And my response is, yeah, easily. But you're here telling me this story.

And when they told me this story, two people, they told me this story, and they said, yeah, they could have killed me. And my response is, yeah, easily. But you're here telling me this story.

So it's not very common for wolves to attack people. That's just what I'm saying. Not anymore. Not anymore. And I don't know how good the reporting was way back when.

So it's not very common for wolves to attack people. That's just what I'm saying. Not anymore. Not anymore. And I don't know how good the reporting was way back when.

Like the homesteaders. Yeah.

Like the homesteaders. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

When we had time. But they had guns. They had guns. They had poisons. They had traps. They had livestock. They had children. That's just what I'm saying. In this country.

When we had time. But they had guns. They had guns. They had poisons. They had traps. They had livestock. They had children. That's just what I'm saying. In this country.

Well, I grew up in Minnesota, and you can probably tell from the Fargo accent. But I grew up in Minnesota, and back in the 60s and 70s when I was thinking about a career, Minnesota was the only state in the lower 48 that had wolves, with the exception of a few, like 25 maybe in Iowa, a couple here or there in Wisconsin. And so I was interested from the beginning with that.

Well, I grew up in Minnesota, and you can probably tell from the Fargo accent. But I grew up in Minnesota, and back in the 60s and 70s when I was thinking about a career, Minnesota was the only state in the lower 48 that had wolves, with the exception of a few, like 25 maybe in Iowa, a couple here or there in Wisconsin. And so I was interested from the beginning with that.

With probably a, I don't mean to be offensive, but a better base of information with all the opportunity in the world for all those things you just set up. Remote living, no protection, harsh winters like the winter of Charlie Russell paintings where all the cattle were starving. Right. You didn't have packs of 400 wolves coming in and killing everyone.

With probably a, I don't mean to be offensive, but a better base of information with all the opportunity in the world for all those things you just set up. Remote living, no protection, harsh winters like the winter of Charlie Russell paintings where all the cattle were starving. Right. You didn't have packs of 400 wolves coming in and killing everyone.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Incredible. It's beautiful. I just actually watched it within the last year.

Incredible. It's beautiful. I just actually watched it within the last year.

How many were killed by wolves?

How many were killed by wolves?

Tigers? Tigers are awesome predators on people.

Tigers? Tigers are awesome predators on people.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm trying to remember the name of the book I read. It might just be called Tiger. I'm trying to remember the name, but it's a story of a predatory tiger and these guys, a story of the tiger's life and how they go to finally try and kill it. It's a terrifying story. In Siberia? It's a true story. Yeah. And it's modern times.

I'm trying to remember the name of the book I read. It might just be called Tiger. I'm trying to remember the name, but it's a story of a predatory tiger and these guys, a story of the tiger's life and how they go to finally try and kill it. It's a terrifying story. In Siberia? It's a true story. Yeah. And it's modern times.

Oh, my God. A cat that's 600 pounds stalking you? In the snow. No, thank you.

Oh, my God. A cat that's 600 pounds stalking you? In the snow. No, thank you.

Yes. And I think that tiger had an injury that was caused by humans. And that's often the case. It wasn't able to hunt real proficiently. I mean, when you're reading the book, you get the drift that it had a vengeance against humans because it was injured.

Yes. And I think that tiger had an injury that was caused by humans. And that's often the case. It wasn't able to hunt real proficiently. I mean, when you're reading the book, you get the drift that it had a vengeance against humans because it was injured.

Yeah. There's no doubt that animal, according to the story here, definitely had vengeance on its mind.

Yeah. There's no doubt that animal, according to the story here, definitely had vengeance on its mind.

The book is called The Tigers. I had the title right.

The book is called The Tigers. I had the title right.

It's a fascinating story. Wow. Yeah. And you know, it's interesting because with- Look at the footprint.

It's a fascinating story. Wow. Yeah. And you know, it's interesting because with- Look at the footprint.

Look at the size of that.

Look at the size of that.

Yeah. Wow. Fascinating story. And then there's this, the tiger is just trying to be a tiger.

Yeah. Wow. Fascinating story. And then there's this, the tiger is just trying to be a tiger.

Yeah, different. So is that- Different time era.

Yeah, different. So is that- Different time era.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You drew that. It's 140 years old. Come on.

You drew that. It's 140 years old. Come on.

But some of the interesting things looking at that is, like in Glacier Park or anywhere I play, were wolves-

But some of the interesting things looking at that is, like in Glacier Park or anywhere I play, were wolves-

overlap with with mountain lions which we call lions mountain lions and grizzly bears and coyotes and whatever when they they kill one of their other competing predators just like that tiger they don't usually eat it it's secondary it's to kill off a competitor so wolves don't get eaten by mountain lions they do get killed by mountain lions occasionally right occasionally matter of fact one of the colorado wolves that was just introduced was killed by mountain lion

overlap with with mountain lions which we call lions mountain lions and grizzly bears and coyotes and whatever when they they kill one of their other competing predators just like that tiger they don't usually eat it it's secondary it's to kill off a competitor so wolves don't get eaten by mountain lions they do get killed by mountain lions occasionally right occasionally matter of fact one of the colorado wolves that was just introduced was killed by mountain lion

And one-on-one, a 120-pound cat and a 100-pound wolf, one-on-one, the cat's going to win. But when you have a pack of wolves, I mean, we've watched them treat the cat, and they'll wait until they can get it. They'll wait. But one-on-one, the cat doesn't have a chance.

And one-on-one, a 120-pound cat and a 100-pound wolf, one-on-one, the cat's going to win. But when you have a pack of wolves, I mean, we've watched them treat the cat, and they'll wait until they can get it. They'll wait. But one-on-one, the cat doesn't have a chance.

Right. I mean, when the cats won and you got a pack of eight waiting. Right, right, right. But we documented a case where the wolves treat a cat and it couldn't stay up with the tree any longer. It was on a skinny lodge pole and it was sliding down. And as soon as it got to the ground, they killed it and they just ripped it apart and they didn't eat any of it. Wow.

Right. I mean, when the cats won and you got a pack of eight waiting. Right, right, right. But we documented a case where the wolves treat a cat and it couldn't stay up with the tree any longer. It was on a skinny lodge pole and it was sliding down. And as soon as it got to the ground, they killed it and they just ripped it apart and they didn't eat any of it. Wow.

It's strictly to vanquish a competitor, just like the tiger.

It's strictly to vanquish a competitor, just like the tiger.

Well, they had better options. Have you ever eaten mottlion?

Well, they had better options. Have you ever eaten mottlion?

Like the backstrap of a lion.

Like the backstrap of a lion.

It looks like a pork tenderloin and you cut it. It's very light colored. I've only eaten it once.

It looks like a pork tenderloin and you cut it. It's very light colored. I've only eaten it once.

Without the fat.

Without the fat.

Wolves apparently either, huh?

Wolves apparently either, huh?

I don't think it'd be very good. They're skinny and stringy and sinewy.

I don't think it'd be very good. They're skinny and stringy and sinewy.

Or worse yet, wolverines.

Or worse yet, wolverines.

No. Anyway, no, I'm glad you showed me that stuff because it's nice to know the stuff is still out there and alive and well. I hear it all the time. And I hear about the Canadian super wolves and...

No. Anyway, no, I'm glad you showed me that stuff because it's nice to know the stuff is still out there and alive and well. I hear it all the time. And I hear about the Canadian super wolves and...

To a certain point. And then when you get to where it's so cold and Arctic that the resources, the availability to get food is diminished. Right. Like Arctic wolves on Ellesmere Island are pretty small and they're white.

To a certain point. And then when you get to where it's so cold and Arctic that the resources, the availability to get food is diminished. Right. Like Arctic wolves on Ellesmere Island are pretty small and they're white.

They're smaller. Right. The Piri's caribou up there are smaller than, say, the caribou in Alaska. Because it's hard to make a living.

They're smaller. Right. The Piri's caribou up there are smaller than, say, the caribou in Alaska. Because it's hard to make a living.

But, yeah, northern climate, like the wolves from Canada, most of them are pretty big. And same with the... everything.

But, yeah, northern climate, like the wolves from Canada, most of them are pretty big. And same with the... everything.

Salmon.

Salmon.

Yeah. You got, I've been up to, to McNeil to watch the bears and yeah, my God, they're just enormously fat. They're almost obscene waddling around with their

Yeah. You got, I've been up to, to McNeil to watch the bears and yeah, my God, they're just enormously fat. They're almost obscene waddling around with their

They're so content because they have endless food resources. That's why you can have tourists go out and sit and watch grizzly bears feeding within 100 yards of you sometimes, eating salmon and you're under no danger. Why would they bother you when they have thousands of pounds of salmon in the river?

They're so content because they have endless food resources. That's why you can have tourists go out and sit and watch grizzly bears feeding within 100 yards of you sometimes, eating salmon and you're under no danger. Why would they bother you when they have thousands of pounds of salmon in the river?

No, my question is, why did the bear bother?

No, my question is, why did the bear bother?

I kind of had a similar experience. McNeil, not that close, but close enough that I was uncomfortable. I live with bears because I'm used to bears that have skinny resources and they're voracious and they're pretty aggressive in the fall. They can be because they're getting into hyperphagia where they got a good enough calories to hibernate. And if you keep them from getting their calories, it

I kind of had a similar experience. McNeil, not that close, but close enough that I was uncomfortable. I live with bears because I'm used to bears that have skinny resources and they're voracious and they're pretty aggressive in the fall. They can be because they're getting into hyperphagia where they got a good enough calories to hibernate. And if you keep them from getting their calories, it

It's you or the huckleberry patch, maybe, or you or the elk that you just hung in the woods the night before and you went back to get. That happens. People hang their game in the woods and they go back the next day and the grizzly bears found it.

It's you or the huckleberry patch, maybe, or you or the elk that you just hung in the woods the night before and you went back to get. That happens. People hang their game in the woods and they go back the next day and the grizzly bears found it.

Elk hunting on that island?

Elk hunting on that island?

Oh, my gosh.

Oh, my gosh.

Oh, yeah. I hadn't heard that when I saw Steve.

Oh, yeah. I hadn't heard that when I saw Steve.

Yes. And what I would point out with that is that that bear had every chance in the world to kill every one of those guys. It didn't hurt any of them.

Yes. And what I would point out with that is that that bear had every chance in the world to kill every one of those guys. It didn't hurt any of them.

It wouldn't matter. They weren't armed.

It wouldn't matter. They weren't armed.

Hit the bear in the face?

Hit the bear in the face?

It's terrifying.

It's terrifying.

Maybe they left a little behind.

Maybe they left a little behind.

That's a good move. I mean, yeah, I probably would have. Leave the shoulders and the neck.

That's a good move. I mean, yeah, I probably would have. Leave the shoulders and the neck.

My point is that bear could have run through and killed one of them or all of them in a moment of anger. It didn't. It did a bluff charge. It turned around. It woofed and gnashed its teeth.

My point is that bear could have run through and killed one of them or all of them in a moment of anger. It didn't. It did a bluff charge. It turned around. It woofed and gnashed its teeth.

It could have killed them, seriously. Sure.

It could have killed them, seriously. Sure.

Right. And then we have this happen a lot in Montana. Every year, at least one person is killed by a bear, or many can be injured. And the thing that's common is they say the bear charged them, and before that, it was woofing. And a lot of times, they do what's called a bluff charge, but...

Right. And then we have this happen a lot in Montana. Every year, at least one person is killed by a bear, or many can be injured. And the thing that's common is they say the bear charged them, and before that, it was woofing. And a lot of times, they do what's called a bluff charge, but...

People don't want to wait until the bear is 15 feet away to figure out if it's a bluff charge or not, so they shoot them. And bear spray is very, very effective because you can do a longer distance, and it's accurate. But I personally don't... The science shows, and many of your listeners won't believe this, the science shows that average hunter is better off with a bear spray than a firearm.

People don't want to wait until the bear is 15 feet away to figure out if it's a bluff charge or not, so they shoot them. And bear spray is very, very effective because you can do a longer distance, and it's accurate. But I personally don't... The science shows, and many of your listeners won't believe this, the science shows that average hunter is better off with a bear spray than a firearm.

But... In a moment of panic, you can't say what you would do.

But... In a moment of panic, you can't say what you would do.

To survive with less injury or at least less fatal. And people have sprayed a bear that's attacking somebody and the bear breaks off and leaves. Of course, you've got to deal with the after. Have you ever been around bear spray, pepper spray?

To survive with less injury or at least less fatal. And people have sprayed a bear that's attacking somebody and the bear breaks off and leaves. Of course, you've got to deal with the after. Have you ever been around bear spray, pepper spray?

Oh, my God.

Oh, my God.

Oh, it's awful. How did you get everybody to go off camera and get?

Oh, it's awful. How did you get everybody to go off camera and get?

I think pepper spray – yeah, it might even be worse. Otherwise, they'd have tear gas for bear repellent, and they don't. They have pepper spray.

I think pepper spray – yeah, it might even be worse. Otherwise, they'd have tear gas for bear repellent, and they don't. They have pepper spray.

It's bad. But I'm just saying – and people can argue this, and it all depends on the situation. But in general – Bear spray is a more effective tool because you can spray it three times past where he's sitting and the bear hits that spray and they run away.

It's bad. But I'm just saying – and people can argue this, and it all depends on the situation. But in general – Bear spray is a more effective tool because you can spray it three times past where he's sitting and the bear hits that spray and they run away.

And I guess I've heard the bear biologists say to me, try shooting a rolling tire at 40 miles an hour and see how accurate your shots are because that's what you're shooting at if a bear is charging you.

And I guess I've heard the bear biologists say to me, try shooting a rolling tire at 40 miles an hour and see how accurate your shots are because that's what you're shooting at if a bear is charging you.

And it's difficult to keep your act together.

And it's difficult to keep your act together.

Right. It's not necessarily the killing factor. It's just that you're not going to hit very well.

Right. It's not necessarily the killing factor. It's just that you're not going to hit very well.

It's more effective.

It's more effective.

I always carry bear spray when I'm hiking.

I always carry bear spray when I'm hiking.

No.

No.

Not unless I'm bird hunting.

Not unless I'm bird hunting.

I've heard it, and I have never heard about it being used on wolves because generally wolves aren't sneaking around. But if I had a cat stalking me lying, boy, you bet I'd have my bear spray out.

I've heard it, and I have never heard about it being used on wolves because generally wolves aren't sneaking around. But if I had a cat stalking me lying, boy, you bet I'd have my bear spray out.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Not that I saw.

Not that I saw.

Mm-hmm. Exactly.

Mm-hmm. Exactly.

Aw.

Aw.

Oh, yeah. I think if you had infrared vision for the heat detector and you could see what's out in the woods, you'd never go outside to take a leak when you're at your cabin.

Oh, yeah. I think if you had infrared vision for the heat detector and you could see what's out in the woods, you'd never go outside to take a leak when you're at your cabin.

And everything's out there.

And everything's out there.

Yes.

Yes.