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Dr. Annelu de Vries

Appearances

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

106.573

At that point, there wasn't any data to support using puberty blockers for kids with gender dysphoria. There was Peggy's case report on FG, but that was just an account of a single kid who had been given the blockers before the Dutch protocol even existed. There was no way to know how well they would work for other kids or what risks there might be.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

1062.023

At this point, Manon was a strong candidate for puberty blockers. She had felt gender dysphoria from a very early age. She had a supportive family. She didn't have any other psychological issues that needed to be addressed first. And crucially, as she approached puberty, her dysphoria was not going away.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

1089.155

Manon started having a new conversation with Analu.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

1098.483

Because the last part of the criteria kids needed to meet to start medical intervention was making sure that they understood the impact the treatment would have on their lives. The papers talked about blockers as a reversible treatment. So if a kid were to stop taking them, they would eventually resume their natal puberty.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

1117.925

But the papers also noted there may be risks to pausing what's usually a time of rapid growth, like the impact on bone density and possibly brain development.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

1138.054

And as Manon was learning about the blockers, she was also being monitored for any signs of puberty.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

1192.591

This is what the Dutch thought of as one of the radical innovations of the blockers, that it was just a pause that could be undone. And meanwhile, Manon could think about what came next.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

1234.902

At some point, she remembered there were some concerns about her bone health. She said she was told to eat more cheese and exercise. And then she turned 16, the age when doctors at the clinic said she could decide if she wanted to move on to cross-sex hormones. For Manon, this would mean taking estrogen, which would trigger female puberty.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

1267.904

And so now the conversation was about whether to move forward to a stage where treatment would have irreversible effects.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

129.781

So Analu set out to look at a group of patients who were getting the treatment at the clinic. What ended up being 70 patients over the course of the study.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

1310.681

If Manon wanted to keep the option of having biological kids down the line, she would have had to go off the blockers, delay the estrogen treatment, and let her body go through enough male puberty for her to develop and bank sperm.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

153.325

The idea was to see how the kids were doing psychologically before they started puberty blockers and follow up with them over time to see how the blockers and then hormones and surgeries impacted their well-being and whether the kids they thought would benefit from the treatment actually were doing better. And what Analu found launched the field of youth gender medicine.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

1699.06

In 2011, Analu published the results of her study that had followed Manon and the 69 other adolescents who received puberty blockers using the protocol.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

1711.691

She found that after an average of two years on the blockers, the psychological well-being of the participants was improved, writing that their, quote, behavioral and emotional problems and depressive symptoms decreased while general functioning improved significantly.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

1733.342

Despite the improvements in general functioning, she found no change in their feelings of gender dysphoria, which she said made sense because the blockers hadn't actually changed their bodies.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

1747.148

But the study had continued to follow the group as they moved on to cross-sex hormones and, after they were 18, surgery. And Analu published another paper about how they were doing after these interventions. By this point, the group had narrowed to 55 of the original 70. Some patients weren't included because they didn't respond to questionnaires.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

1771.004

Some weren't far enough out from their surgery to be included, or couldn't get surgery because of other medical issues. One patient died as a result of surgical complications. And in the follow-up paper, Analu found that the 55 patients she had been following for years, quote, were generally satisfied with their physical appearance and none regretted treatment.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

1795.435

She found that their gender dysphoria had resolved. She also wrote that their psychological functioning had continued to improve over time, that their rates of clinical problems were now, quote, indistinguishable from general population samples. But Analu said that her study had a few limitations.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

1826.788

And she noted that because of the number of participants who had fallen out between the blockers paper and the follow-up paper, there was the possibility of selection bias. The kids who had remained could possibly have been the ones more likely to improve.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

1842.133

She wrote that ideally there should have been a randomized controlled trial, a study that would have included a group of gender dysphoric kids who didn't receive treatment for her to compare her results to.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

1862.297

She said to deny treatment to kids who met all the criteria was not a, quote, neutral option. That without medical treatment, these kids would further develop characteristics that might bring them more distress, which could fuel depression and suicidality.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

1879.007

And that the group who did receive the intervention would be given the, quote, enormous and lifelong advantage of not being identifiable with their assigned sex at birth. In the conclusion of her second paper in the study, Analu said that the results signified the first evidence to support this new treatment protocol. She called the findings promising.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

189.251

Analu got up and led us to her nearby office and dug around her shelves.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

1904.008

But her final words sound now like a bit of a warning. Clinicians should realize, she wrote, that it was not just the early medical intervention that led to the success of this study.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

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It was the approach they took.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

1940.677

But even before Analu published her results, the protocol had been adopted into the industry's leading guidelines, the WPATH Standards of Care, essentially the go-to manual for doctors and other providers working in transgender healthcare.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

1966.604

And providers from all over the world started visiting the Amsterdam clinic.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

1985.052

And as they brought the care back to their countries, not everyone was following the protocol.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

199.577

On the cover, it said, gender kinderen, gender kids.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

2071.681

Next time, in part three...

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

221.172

She flipped through. It was filled with full-page color photographs of some of the kids who took part in her research.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

230.115

And she pointed to one kid in particular.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

236.117

Someone who could help us understand how the Dutch protocol worked.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

244.858

What it was about this process and the kids who went through it that was so convincing to the rest of the world. So I guess we should find a car to go after.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

263.066

From the New York Times, I'm Austin Mitchell. This is The Protocol with Azeen Qureshi.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

301.03

Yeah, and if there's anything that you're like, you don't want to be public or that... There are not a lot of people in Manon's life who know the role she played in Analu's study.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

319.284

But as one of the first kids to go through the Dutch protocol, she's had some experience with the media, including one where she said her full name was published without permission.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

32.989

And critically, the mental health assessments that were designed to help figure out which kids should get medical intervention.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

342.442

So we've agreed to use only her first name.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

398.328

Manon's experience going through the Dutch protocol, along with the other kids Anneloo studied, was captured in a handful of papers. There was Anneloo's seminal study. There were also a few other scientific articles that outlined in detail how the protocol worked.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

415.106

And what Analu made clear in these papers was that clinicians who worked with gender dysphoric kids shouldn't push for any particular treatment outcome. The primary goal was to help them function better, so that they could go to school, get along with their friends and family. And for some kids, that might not mean medical intervention. That was about 30% of the kids they saw.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

440.796

Honolulu wrote that some of the kids who came in were gay and thought that transitioning might help them feel more accepted. Others had psychological issues that needed to be dealt with first. She also talked about kids with autism spectrum disorder, which was about 10% of the kids referred to the clinic.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

460.29

She explained in one study that for these kids, quote, it can be complicated to disentangle whether the gender dysphoria evolves from a general feeling of being just different or whether a true core cross-gender identity exists. Analu said that in all of these cases, kids should get psychological counseling. But in order to get medical intervention... What was your early childhood like?

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

491.072

kids had to meet a certain set of criteria.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

50.546

And how long typically would you say you spoke with them?

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

511.912

So from a very young age, kids had to have a strong identification with the opposite sex, as well as a persistent discomfort with their sex at birth.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

6.842

Dr. Annelu de Vries was one of the first people to join Peggy's new team at the Amsterdam Clinic. At the time, Peggy was still developing her set of rules for providing this new medical intervention to young people, what came to be known as the Dutch Protocol. Puberty blockers when puberty started, usually around 12, hormones as early as 16, and surgeries in adulthood.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

653.371

Another part of the criteria Analu wrote about in her papers was that kids had to have the support of their parents or other caregivers.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

696.956

Analu wrote that family support mattered because, quote, parents can play a significant role in creating an environment in which their child can grow up safely and develop optimally.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

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At first, just at home.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

745.663

And then in public.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

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That was like really my... Manon remembers going to her friend's house nearby. It was just on the other side of a playground where the neighborhood kids hung out.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

770.436

That day, she used a back alley, so none of the other kids saw her on the way there.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

849.206

Her family was told to slow down, to not do anything that might influence her.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

875.575

What Analu explained in her papers was that when gender dysphoria started in early childhood, it could change, and some kids would grow out of it. The important milestone, according to the Dutch protocol, was puberty. To be eligible for medical intervention, the distress needed to be intensifying as puberty neared.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

898.192

But Analu said that for most kids, their distress would dissipate around that time. And because of that, they should keep options open for as long as possible. So while it was okay to try out wearing different clothes at home or on vacation, kids shouldn't fully socially transition until the early stages of puberty.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

90.861

Analu started to study the kids they were treating.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

919.83

In part because if they changed their mind, they could avoid having to make the transition back. And so that's the guidance that Manon and her parents were getting from Peggy and her team.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

954.895

It was around this time that Honolulu joined Peggy at the clinic to help lead the assessment process. Yeah.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

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She wrote that the process was designed to track how a child's gender dysphoria developed over time.

The Protocol

The Gender Kids

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And to rule out any other psychological issues or things going on in their life that might be another explanation for their distress.