Dr. Richard Schwartz

So overwhelmed with anger at each other? Frustration. Frustration, yeah.

So overwhelmed with anger at each other? Frustration. Frustration, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Totally agree. Yeah. I had one of those with my wife a few days ago. Okay. All right. Well. And, yeah, very similar. Just caught that part and said, okay, let's just let it go for now and we'll talk later. So I could give you my take on what happened, but if you wanted to, we could just go in and do a little exploring.

Totally agree. Yeah. I had one of those with my wife a few days ago. Okay. All right. Well. And, yeah, very similar. Just caught that part and said, okay, let's just let it go for now and we'll talk later. So I could give you my take on what happened, but if you wanted to, we could just go in and do a little exploring.

Yeah?

Yeah?

Okay. Should we start with the frustrated, angry part?

Okay. Should we start with the frustrated, angry part?

All right. You ready?

All right. You ready?

Okay. So remember that feeling and then focus on it and find it in your body or around your body. Okay. Where do you find it?

Okay. So remember that feeling and then focus on it and find it in your body or around your body. Okay. Where do you find it?

It's great. Both places. It's great you have such clarity about it. So as you focus there, how do you feel toward this part of you?

It's great. Both places. It's great you have such clarity about it. So as you focus there, how do you feel toward this part of you?

So you don't like it?

So you don't like it?

Yeah. Which makes sense because it does, you know, sometimes escalate things with your friend and doesn't leave you feeling good. So I understand why you don't like it. But we're going to ask the parts that don't like it to give us the space to just get curious about it and see if that's possible. Okay. Okay. So how do you feel toward it now?

Yeah. Which makes sense because it does, you know, sometimes escalate things with your friend and doesn't leave you feeling good. So I understand why you don't like it. But we're going to ask the parts that don't like it to give us the space to just get curious about it and see if that's possible. Okay. Okay. So how do you feel toward it now?

So you do feel curious toward it? Yeah. All right. So go ahead and ask it what it wants you to know about itself. Silently? Up to you. Either way. Whichever is more comfortable.

So you do feel curious toward it? Yeah. All right. So go ahead and ask it what it wants you to know about itself. Silently? Up to you. Either way. Whichever is more comfortable.

Yeah. And just wait for the answer. Don't think. I know you've got a big cognitive part, so we're going to ask that one to relax. And just whatever comes in terms of the answer, just wait for it.

Yeah. And just wait for the answer. Don't think. I know you've got a big cognitive part, so we're going to ask that one to relax. And just whatever comes in terms of the answer, just wait for it.

Thank you, Andrew. It's delightful to be with you.

Thank you, Andrew. It's delightful to be with you.

So it relaxed. It may not have dissipated in the way we think about that. It might have just relaxed more. But just keep asking it, what's it afraid would happen if in that context it didn't try to take over in the way that it did? Just ask that question.

So it relaxed. It may not have dissipated in the way we think about that. It might have just relaxed more. But just keep asking it, what's it afraid would happen if in that context it didn't try to take over in the way that it did? Just ask that question.

Yeah, what's it afraid would happen if it hadn't tried to take over? Oh. Just wait for the answer.

Yeah, what's it afraid would happen if it hadn't tried to take over? Oh. Just wait for the answer.

Yeah. Don't think, yeah.

Yeah. Don't think, yeah.

Okay. So the truth is really important to this part of you.

Okay. So the truth is really important to this part of you.

Right.

Right.

Okay, so just stay with this thing. Just stay with it.

Okay, so just stay with this thing. Just stay with it.

And let it know you get that, that having people misinterpret your motives is really, really hard for it. And ask it more about that. Just, again, don't think, but ask why that's so hard. Why does that bother it so much?

And let it know you get that, that having people misinterpret your motives is really, really hard for it. And ask it more about that. Just, again, don't think, but ask why that's so hard. Why does that bother it so much?

So there's something about making sense or nothing making sense that it's really scared of. Is that right?

So there's something about making sense or nothing making sense that it's really scared of. Is that right?

Yeah. So speaking of protect, and so this is a protector part, right? Ask it if it's protecting other parts of you that are vulnerable and get hurt when someone misattunes to what your motive is. Just ask that question. Don't think.

Yeah. So speaking of protect, and so this is a protector part, right? Ask it if it's protecting other parts of you that are vulnerable and get hurt when someone misattunes to what your motive is. Just ask that question. Don't think.

So what I'm hearing is this guy, this titanium guy, is keeping at bay another part that can be very judgmental of the other person.

So what I'm hearing is this guy, this titanium guy, is keeping at bay another part that can be very judgmental of the other person.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, originally I developed it as a form of psychotherapy, which is probably the way it's used most now, but it's also become a kind of life practice and just a paradigm for understanding the human mind and as an alternative to the culture's paradigm. So that's saying a lot, and it's been quite a journey.

Well, originally I developed it as a form of psychotherapy, which is probably the way it's used most now, but it's also become a kind of life practice and just a paradigm for understanding the human mind and as an alternative to the culture's paradigm. So that's saying a lot, and it's been quite a journey.

I get that.

I get that.

Well, there might be parts of you that do, but... I hate behaviors. Okay.

Well, there might be parts of you that do, but... I hate behaviors. Okay.

But what I'm hearing, what we heard from this part, it's afraid if it doesn't do this... A part that judges the other probably in a not so nice way would be released. Does that sound right? Yeah. So there is that part in there. It's just that you've been able to kind of exile it.

But what I'm hearing, what we heard from this part, it's afraid if it doesn't do this... A part that judges the other probably in a not so nice way would be released. Does that sound right? Yeah. So there is that part in there. It's just that you've been able to kind of exile it.

Okay.

Okay.

Right.

Right.

Let's pause for a second. I'll give you a little overview of where we are. So we started with this guy who came up with your friend and is trying to protect that relationship because if – you continue to be misunderstood in terms of your motives, it would have an impact. Does that sound right?

Let's pause for a second. I'll give you a little overview of where we are. So we started with this guy who came up with your friend and is trying to protect that relationship because if – you continue to be misunderstood in terms of your motives, it would have an impact. Does that sound right?

Got it. Yeah. And in exploring this part, asking what it's afraid would happen if it didn't do that. Mm-hmm. So there's this other part that might come out that would be very judgmental of that family member.

Got it. Yeah. And in exploring this part, asking what it's afraid would happen if it didn't do that. Mm-hmm. So there's this other part that might come out that would be very judgmental of that family member.

And really might have a bad influence on your relationship with that person. Does that sound right?

And really might have a bad influence on your relationship with that person. Does that sound right?

Okay. So we have these two – well, we have you who's noticing all this, which we should talk more about. And then we have these two parts that are sort of polarized, but one, the judgmental one, you really don't like. And so you really go to lengths to keep at bay and you're, you kind of admire this guy. Uh, and, and, but you also know that he can get in the way at times too.

Okay. So we have these two – well, we have you who's noticing all this, which we should talk more about. And then we have these two parts that are sort of polarized, but one, the judgmental one, you really don't like. And so you really go to lengths to keep at bay and you're, you kind of admire this guy. Uh, and, and, but you also know that he can get in the way at times too.

Does all that sound right?

Does all that sound right?

So let's go through that again. So first of all, I'm so grateful that you're willing to be this vulnerable and expose these parts. So this guy – actually, they're both probably what we call firefighters – and very reactive. There's maybe some other very vulnerable part that is involved here we haven't heard about.

So let's go through that again. So first of all, I'm so grateful that you're willing to be this vulnerable and expose these parts. So this guy – actually, they're both probably what we call firefighters – and very reactive. There's maybe some other very vulnerable part that is involved here we haven't heard about.

But if we continued to work together, I would work to get permission to go to the judgmental guy too. And what you would find is he's a protector too. He's not just a bunch of negative thoughts about people. As I was hearing earlier, you've spent a lot of time in your life trying to be fair to people and to not judge them and to see them.

But if we continued to work together, I would work to get permission to go to the judgmental guy too. And what you would find is he's a protector too. He's not just a bunch of negative thoughts about people. As I was hearing earlier, you've spent a lot of time in your life trying to be fair to people and to not judge them and to see them.

What they do is just their behaviors and not who they are, which is great. But in the process of doing that sometimes, we wind up having to push away the parts that we want to judge and want to hate and so on. What I find is if we can go there and get to know them, they're just protectors too, and they're young, and when they are able to unload the hate they might carry, the judgment,

What they do is just their behaviors and not who they are, which is great. But in the process of doing that sometimes, we wind up having to push away the parts that we want to judge and want to hate and so on. What I find is if we can go there and get to know them, they're just protectors too, and they're young, and when they are able to unload the hate they might carry, the judgment,

Yeah, so one basic assumption is that the mind isn't unitary, that actually we're all multiple personalities, not in the diagnostic sense. But we all have these what I call parts, other systems call subpersonalities, ego states, things like that, and that it's the natural state of the mind to be that way, that

Yeah, so one basic assumption is that the mind isn't unitary, that actually we're all multiple personalities, not in the diagnostic sense. But we all have these what I call parts, other systems call subpersonalities, ego states, things like that, and that it's the natural state of the mind to be that way, that

They'll transform. So this is a model of transformation in that sense. And there are no bad parts. You go to everybody in there, regardless of how you think how bad they are, and you get curious about them, and you learn how they're trying to protect. And then we help them out of their protective roles and help them trust There's a you who you talked about with Martha who can run things.

They'll transform. So this is a model of transformation in that sense. And there are no bad parts. You go to everybody in there, regardless of how you think how bad they are, and you get curious about them, and you learn how they're trying to protect. And then we help them out of their protective roles and help them trust There's a you who you talked about with Martha who can run things.

They don't have to do it because most of them are young. And get them to trust this you to handle your family member rather than they have to take over or try to take over in the way they did. Does this make any sense?

They don't have to do it because most of them are young. And get them to trust this you to handle your family member rather than they have to take over or try to take over in the way they did. Does this make any sense?

That's what I'm talking about.

That's what I'm talking about.

We're born with them because they're all very valuable and have qualities and resources to help us survive and thrive. But trauma and what's called attachment injuries and the slings and arrows we suffer force these little naturally valuable parts into roles that can be destructive.

We're born with them because they're all very valuable and have qualities and resources to help us survive and thrive. But trauma and what's called attachment injuries and the slings and arrows we suffer force these little naturally valuable parts into roles that can be destructive.

So let me check in and just see how this has been to discuss and focus and so on. What's it been like to do this process?

So let me check in and just see how this has been to discuss and focus and so on. What's it been like to do this process?

What I was saying earlier is if we were to pursue it, we could get to the point where the teddy bear guy could unload the feelings he carries that makes it so uncomfortable, and he would transform.

What I was saying earlier is if we were to pursue it, we could get to the point where the teddy bear guy could unload the feelings he carries that makes it so uncomfortable, and he would transform.

So you would... focus on him again. We would explore more of what he's protecting. Either we would go to the guy he's trying to keep at bay that would ruin a relationship, or often these parts are protecting something much more vulnerable from your past. Some young part that's stuck somewhere in the past that has a big issue about being misunderstood in terms of motives or something.

So you would... focus on him again. We would explore more of what he's protecting. Either we would go to the guy he's trying to keep at bay that would ruin a relationship, or often these parts are protecting something much more vulnerable from your past. Some young part that's stuck somewhere in the past that has a big issue about being misunderstood in terms of motives or something.

Got it.

Got it.

So that would be the part that we would go to that it protects, that has this fantasy of what a relationship should be or could be, who might be stuck somewhere in the past. And we would witness, you know, you talked with Martha about compassionate witness. We would witness where he's stuck and what was happening back then. And then I would have you go in and get him out of that time period.

So that would be the part that we would go to that it protects, that has this fantasy of what a relationship should be or could be, who might be stuck somewhere in the past. And we would witness, you know, you talked with Martha about compassionate witness. We would witness where he's stuck and what was happening back then. And then I would have you go in and get him out of that time period.

Then we'd have him unload the desire for that fantasy that keeps you getting hurt. And then I would have the teddy bear see it doesn't have to protect him anymore. And then we would help the teddy bear unload the feelings he carries. And then he could relax. And they would all start to trust you, which we should talk about a little bit now. Who is you who's separate from these others?

Then we'd have him unload the desire for that fantasy that keeps you getting hurt. And then I would have the teddy bear see it doesn't have to protect him anymore. And then we would help the teddy bear unload the feelings he carries. And then he could relax. And they would all start to trust you, which we should talk about a little bit now. Who is you who's separate from these others?

I had a teddy bear.

I had a teddy bear.

But let me just elaborate on what I was just saying because when you separated from him and you found him here – And I asked you how you felt toward him, and you had an attitude about him at first, remember? And we got that to relax and got curious about him. Then you started to access more of what I call yourself with a capital S. So it comes through curiosity. Well, often starts with curiosity.

But let me just elaborate on what I was just saying because when you separated from him and you found him here – And I asked you how you felt toward him, and you had an attitude about him at first, remember? And we got that to relax and got curious about him. Then you started to access more of what I call yourself with a capital S. So it comes through curiosity. Well, often starts with curiosity.

Just to backtrack a little bit, so when I would have these clients in the early days starting to work with these parts, like the critic and so on, and once I got hip to the fact they weren't what they seemed, that they deserved to be listened to rather than fought with, so I would help the parts that hated them step out, and clients could do that pretty readily.

Just to backtrack a little bit, so when I would have these clients in the early days starting to work with these parts, like the critic and so on, and once I got hip to the fact they weren't what they seemed, that they deserved to be listened to rather than fought with, so I would help the parts that hated them step out, and clients could do that pretty readily.

Often they don't like it all, but because they're frozen often in time and during the trauma, and they live as if it's still happening, they're in these protective roles that can be quite extreme and interfere in your life. And yeah, so I just stumbled onto the phenomena 40, now I think it's 41 years ago. Mm-hmm. And it's been, you know, amazing ride.

Often they don't like it all, but because they're frozen often in time and during the trauma, and they live as if it's still happening, they're in these protective roles that can be quite extreme and interfere in your life. And yeah, so I just stumbled onto the phenomena 40, now I think it's 41 years ago. Mm-hmm. And it's been, you know, amazing ride.

And then I would say, now how do you feel toward this critic? And spontaneously, people would say, I'm just curious about why it calls me names all day. Or even would say, I feel sorry for it that it has to do this. I want to help it. And when they were in that state, and I would ask, what part of you is that? That's great. Let's keep that around. They'd say, that's not a part like these others.

And then I would say, now how do you feel toward this critic? And spontaneously, people would say, I'm just curious about why it calls me names all day. Or even would say, I feel sorry for it that it has to do this. I want to help it. And when they were in that state, and I would ask, what part of you is that? That's great. Let's keep that around. They'd say, that's not a part like these others.

That's me. That's my essence, or that's my self. So I came to call that the self with a capital S. 40 years later, thousands of people doing this all over the world. Turns out that that self is in everybody just beneath the surface of these parts so that when they open space, you can access it quickly. It has all these great qualities, what I call the eight Cs.

That's me. That's my essence, or that's my self. So I came to call that the self with a capital S. 40 years later, thousands of people doing this all over the world. Turns out that that self is in everybody just beneath the surface of these parts so that when they open space, you can access it quickly. It has all these great qualities, what I call the eight Cs.

So curious, but also calm, confident, compassionate. courageous, clear, creative, and connected. And that person knows how to heal these parts. So once I get somebody in a lot of what we call self, I'll just say, okay, what do you wanna say to this part? And how does it react? And now what do you wanna do with the part? I can kind of get out of the way.

So curious, but also calm, confident, compassionate. courageous, clear, creative, and connected. And that person knows how to heal these parts. So once I get somebody in a lot of what we call self, I'll just say, okay, what do you wanna say to this part? And how does it react? And now what do you wanna do with the part? I can kind of get out of the way.

And one of the hallmarks of IFS as opposed to a lot of other therapies is that it's not so much about me becoming that, you know, good attachment figure to these hurting parts of you, these inner children. You become that. You become the good attachment figure yourself or the good inner parent or the good internal leader for these parts. And they come to trust you as a leader.

And one of the hallmarks of IFS as opposed to a lot of other therapies is that it's not so much about me becoming that, you know, good attachment figure to these hurting parts of you, these inner children. You become that. You become the good attachment figure yourself or the good inner parent or the good internal leader for these parts. And they come to trust you as a leader.

And then you get into it with your family member. And you just remind the partner, I can handle this. Just let me stay. And now when that happens with my wife, sometimes, not on a good day, I can stay in the C-word qualities and have a totally different conversation with her than if that protector took over.

And then you get into it with your family member. And you just remind the partner, I can handle this. Just let me stay. And now when that happens with my wife, sometimes, not on a good day, I can stay in the C-word qualities and have a totally different conversation with her than if that protector took over.

I actually have a PhD in marital and family therapy, so I was part of the movement in family therapy away from intra-psychic work. There was a polarization, and we thought we could reorganize families and heal all these symptoms just by doing that. We didn't have to muck around in the inner world.

I actually have a PhD in marital and family therapy, so I was part of the movement in family therapy away from intra-psychic work. There was a polarization, and we thought we could reorganize families and heal all these symptoms just by doing that. We didn't have to muck around in the inner world.

Yeah, yeah. So for a long time, I resisted trying to take this directly to the public because... I learned the hard way that some systems, particularly people with huge amounts of trauma, are quite delicate.

Yeah, yeah. So for a long time, I resisted trying to take this directly to the public because... I learned the hard way that some systems, particularly people with huge amounts of trauma, are quite delicate.

And if you start going to these, you know, the part we talked about that's vulnerable inside, that has this view of relationships, this kind of idealized view of relationships of yours, would be what I call an exile, that if we were to go to it, And we won't today because it requires a lot of vulnerability.

And if you start going to these, you know, the part we talked about that's vulnerable inside, that has this view of relationships, this kind of idealized view of relationships of yours, would be what I call an exile, that if we were to go to it, And we won't today because it requires a lot of vulnerability.

I went to prove that, and this was about 1983, by getting a group of bulimic kids together and their families. tried to reorganize the family, just the way the book said to, and failed. The kids didn't realize they'd been cured, and they kept binging and purging. So out of frustration, I began asking why, and they started talking this language of parts.

I went to prove that, and this was about 1983, by getting a group of bulimic kids together and their families. tried to reorganize the family, just the way the book said to, and failed. The kids didn't realize they'd been cured, and they kept binging and purging. So out of frustration, I began asking why, and they started talking this language of parts.

But if we were to, a lot of extreme protectors might come out and then people start to get scared. So it took a long time to figure out how we might bring it to the public in a safer way. And so we just put out a workbook for people.

But if we were to, a lot of extreme protectors might come out and then people start to get scared. So it took a long time to figure out how we might bring it to the public in a safer way. And so we just put out a workbook for people.

And it doesn't involve necessarily going to those places, but there's a huge amount you can do just by working the way we started to with these protectors and getting to know them and know that they're not you. They're just a part trying their best. And no, it's not anything negative.

And it doesn't involve necessarily going to those places, but there's a huge amount you can do just by working the way we started to with these protectors and getting to know them and know that they're not you. They're just a part trying their best. And no, it's not anything negative.

That judgmental part you've got such an attitude about or fear of, if you were just to begin getting curious about it and getting to know it a bit, you'd find out that it's a very valuable part that has a lot of discernment, like you said, and wants desperately to keep you from getting in these relationships where you get hurt and get so judgmental because you don't listen to it.

That judgmental part you've got such an attitude about or fear of, if you were just to begin getting curious about it and getting to know it a bit, you'd find out that it's a very valuable part that has a lot of discernment, like you said, and wants desperately to keep you from getting in these relationships where you get hurt and get so judgmental because you don't listen to it.

Do you follow what I'm saying?

Do you follow what I'm saying?

And they would say some version of, when something bad happens in my life, it triggers this critic who's calling me all kinds of names inside, and that goes right to the heart of a part that feels empty and alone and worthless. And that's so distressing to feel that the binge part comes in and takes me out, takes me away from all that pain. But the critic comes in and attacks me for the binge.

And they would say some version of, when something bad happens in my life, it triggers this critic who's calling me all kinds of names inside, and that goes right to the heart of a part that feels empty and alone and worthless. And that's so distressing to feel that the binge part comes in and takes me out, takes me away from all that pain. But the critic comes in and attacks me for the binge.

And what I'm hearing is that when you're looking at a person or a political party or issue in the world, you'll hear from these conflicted parts. They each have – perspective, just like our country now hears from these conflicted parts. But you don't have a lot of access to what I'm calling self in those contexts. Because one of the C words is clarity.

And what I'm hearing is that when you're looking at a person or a political party or issue in the world, you'll hear from these conflicted parts. They each have – perspective, just like our country now hears from these conflicted parts. But you don't have a lot of access to what I'm calling self in those contexts. Because one of the C words is clarity.

So again, as I was listening to you and Martha, you were talking about how there are times where you just have this sense in your body of what's right or what's true. That's what I'm calling self. Self has that clarity. And self sees injustice and self, some of those C words are courage, confidence, and clarity. So there's an impulse also to act to correct imbalance, to correct injustice too.

So again, as I was listening to you and Martha, you were talking about how there are times where you just have this sense in your body of what's right or what's true. That's what I'm calling self. Self has that clarity. And self sees injustice and self, some of those C words are courage, confidence, and clarity. So there's an impulse also to act to correct imbalance, to correct injustice too.

So self isn't a kind of passive witness as it is in a lot of spiritual traditions in IFS. It's an active inner leader. It's an active external leader. And Too often, our actions are driven by these protective parts, and that's true in our politics now too. So one of my goals is to try to bring more self-leadership to the world, to all these conflicts. But to do that, people have to unburden.

So self isn't a kind of passive witness as it is in a lot of spiritual traditions in IFS. It's an active inner leader. It's an active external leader. And Too often, our actions are driven by these protective parts, and that's true in our politics now too. So one of my goals is to try to bring more self-leadership to the world, to all these conflicts. But to do that, people have to unburden.

They have to release these extreme beliefs and emotions they got from their traumas in the past. We have a concept we call legacy burdens. So many people have inherited these extreme beliefs and emotions that came down through their ancestors and drive their parts, drive their extremes. And many conflicts in the world are driven by these legacy burdens.

They have to release these extreme beliefs and emotions they got from their traumas in the past. We have a concept we call legacy burdens. So many people have inherited these extreme beliefs and emotions that came down through their ancestors and drive their parts, drive their extremes. And many conflicts in the world are driven by these legacy burdens.

And we've gotten good at helping people unload these things. Yeah, we've seen this in the Middle East recently. Totally. And we're doing a lot of work in the Middle East. So we have training programs there. And one of my visions is to have large-scale legacy unburdenings where large groups of people come together and we help them unload the Holocaust legacy burdens on the one side and the

And we've gotten good at helping people unload these things. Yeah, we've seen this in the Middle East recently. Totally. And we're doing a lot of work in the Middle East. So we have training programs there. And one of my visions is to have large-scale legacy unburdenings where large groups of people come together and we help them unload the Holocaust legacy burdens on the one side and the

1941 legacy burdens on the Palestinian side and have more self accessible to each side. And when, like when we do couples therapy, we do other kinds of negotiated conflict. If people's parts start getting into it, we'll just say time out. You sort of did this on your own with your family member. Just say time out. I want both of you to go inside. Find the parts that have been doing the speaking.

1941 legacy burdens on the Palestinian side and have more self accessible to each side. And when, like when we do couples therapy, we do other kinds of negotiated conflict. If people's parts start getting into it, we'll just say time out. You sort of did this on your own with your family member. Just say time out. I want both of you to go inside. Find the parts that have been doing the speaking.

Don't come back until you can speak for them but not from them. And come back in these C-word qualities, in that state of self. If we can hold people in that, it's really easy to get out of the conflict. If their protectors are going at it all the time, conflicts never change.

Don't come back until you can speak for them but not from them. And come back in these C-word qualities, in that state of self. If we can hold people in that, it's really easy to get out of the conflict. If their protectors are going at it all the time, conflicts never change.

And then the criticism goes right to the heart of that worthless part. So to me as a family therapist, this sounded like what I'd been studying in external families. these circular sequences of interaction. And so I just got curious and just started to explore.

And then the criticism goes right to the heart of that worthless part. So to me as a family therapist, this sounded like what I'd been studying in external families. these circular sequences of interaction. And so I just got curious and just started to explore.

Yeah, that happened several times when we were working together. Like I would have you stay with something and then the narrator part would kick in. Yeah. And then I would try to refocus you. But, you know, I lived in Boston for 10 years. So I worked with lots of cognitive people who didn't know their bodies, who had, you know, just were in that rat race to try and get tenure and so on.

Yeah, that happened several times when we were working together. Like I would have you stay with something and then the narrator part would kick in. Yeah. And then I would try to refocus you. But, you know, I lived in Boston for 10 years. So I worked with lots of cognitive people who didn't know their bodies, who had, you know, just were in that rat race to try and get tenure and so on.

Yes, me too. Yeah.

Yes, me too. Yeah.

But just to answer your question, they can do it, but we first have to start with that thinking part and get it on board and get it to step out and to stay out long enough that they can feel their bodies. So, yeah, you know, it lends itself to anybody, but with people like that, it takes a while for that thinking part to trust. that it's safe to let them into their bodies.

But just to answer your question, they can do it, but we first have to start with that thinking part and get it on board and get it to step out and to stay out long enough that they can feel their bodies. So, yeah, you know, it lends itself to anybody, but with people like that, it takes a while for that thinking part to trust. that it's safe to let them into their bodies.

Because if they find it in their body and they direct the question there and they wait for the answer to come from there, they're less likely to be in their head. So it sort of short circuits that thinking part. And so many people come to therapy and that thinking part thinks it's supposed to do the therapy. It's, you know, CBT or whatever.

Because if they find it in their body and they direct the question there and they wait for the answer to come from there, they're less likely to be in their head. So it sort of short circuits that thinking part. And so many people come to therapy and that thinking part thinks it's supposed to do the therapy. It's, you know, CBT or whatever.

Even a lot of the more, not experiential, but a lot of the more psychodynamic therapies, the thinking part is really trying to explain why they feel stuff.

Even a lot of the more, not experiential, but a lot of the more psychodynamic therapies, the thinking part is really trying to explain why they feel stuff.

So this is getting them out of that and getting them to actually listen inside into what they think is their body, but it's really these parts that live down there that They haven't had access to because the thinking part is running things so much.

So this is getting them out of that and getting them to actually listen inside into what they think is their body, but it's really these parts that live down there that They haven't had access to because the thinking part is running things so much.

Yeah, it's not even you're trying to reveal. It's just that you're asking these questions and the answers start coming.

Yeah, it's not even you're trying to reveal. It's just that you're asking these questions and the answers start coming.

Yeah, in fact – Two days ago, we just completed an IFS and ketamine retreat. Oh, wow. And we're doing it more and more. Like I said, I'm trying to bring this more out of the psychotherapy world. So we invited 32 leaders to come of various kinds and had three days where they do ketamine and then do IFS.

Yeah, in fact – Two days ago, we just completed an IFS and ketamine retreat. Oh, wow. And we're doing it more and more. Like I said, I'm trying to bring this more out of the psychotherapy world. So we invited 32 leaders to come of various kinds and had three days where they do ketamine and then do IFS.

The nice thing about psychedelics is it puts those manager parts to sleep somehow a lot of the time.

The nice thing about psychedelics is it puts those manager parts to sleep somehow a lot of the time.

That's why... These academy and clinics where they just hand them the drugs and the medicine and just leave them on their own are scary to me. I'm proud to say that IFS has been adopted as one of the primary models for psychedelics now.

That's why... These academy and clinics where they just hand them the drugs and the medicine and just leave them on their own are scary to me. I'm proud to say that IFS has been adopted as one of the primary models for psychedelics now.

Because it's a really nice fit. And as I was saying earlier, what I see happening often, not always, is these manager parts go offline. And that releases a lot of self. So you start to just feel those C-word qualities emerging. And that's a big invitation to all these exiled parts to come and get attention. And so as people come out of the ketamine experience,

Because it's a really nice fit. And as I was saying earlier, what I see happening often, not always, is these manager parts go offline. And that releases a lot of self. So you start to just feel those C-word qualities emerging. And that's a big invitation to all these exiled parts to come and get attention. And so as people come out of the ketamine experience,

I can work with them for 15 minutes and do something that would take maybe five sessions because they can get access to parts that they couldn't get or it would take a long time to convince their protectors to let us go to. And we can unburden those exiles and then bring back their protectors. And so I love it. And ketamine is the legal one, so that's why we do it.

I can work with them for 15 minutes and do something that would take maybe five sessions because they can get access to parts that they couldn't get or it would take a long time to convince their protectors to let us go to. And we can unburden those exiles and then bring back their protectors. And so I love it. And ketamine is the legal one, so that's why we do it.

And the other nice thing, and I don't know as a scientist how much you would go with this, Ketamine, again, because it opens the door with these protectors, you can also taste what I call the big self. You taste this, what they call, non-dual state that can be quite blissful. And some people go, God. And

And the other nice thing, and I don't know as a scientist how much you would go with this, Ketamine, again, because it opens the door with these protectors, you can also taste what I call the big self. You taste this, what they call, non-dual state that can be quite blissful. And some people go, God. And

Some of both. So most people are aware they're a critic, but other times you're not aware of these parts we call exiles that you've locked away because you didn't want to feel their feelings. They're stuck in these bad trauma scenes. And to survive in your life, you had to push them away.

Some of both. So most people are aware they're a critic, but other times you're not aware of these parts we call exiles that you've locked away because you didn't want to feel their feelings. They're stuck in these bad trauma scenes. And to survive in your life, you had to push them away.

Then as you come back, you have this sense of I'm much more than this little body and this little ego, that there is something much bigger. And that's why they're using it with End of Life and why it and psilocybin has such a big impact on depression because it sort of lifts you out of this little box your protectors have you in to know that there's something much more. Yeah.

Then as you come back, you have this sense of I'm much more than this little body and this little ego, that there is something much bigger. And that's why they're using it with End of Life and why it and psilocybin has such a big impact on depression because it sort of lifts you out of this little box your protectors have you in to know that there's something much more. Yeah.

And so with those parts, a lot of people aren't really consciously aware of them until these protector parts give space and open the door to the exiles.

And so with those parts, a lot of people aren't really consciously aware of them until these protector parts give space and open the door to the exiles.

Like when you go to sleep, your managers go to sleep, and then you have these weird dreams, and that's because your exiles have access to your mind now. And they're trying to give you signals about what they want. The other thing I'll say about psychedelics and the breathing too is

Like when you go to sleep, your managers go to sleep, and then you have these weird dreams, and that's because your exiles have access to your mind now. And they're trying to give you signals about what they want. The other thing I'll say about psychedelics and the breathing too is

is that as your managers go to sleep and your exiles start coming in, it can seem really terrifying because these parts are stuck in horrible places often with a lot of terror. And so what's called bad trips is them trying to get attention. So they'll come in and they'll totally take over and you'll look like you're having a panic attack.

is that as your managers go to sleep and your exiles start coming in, it can seem really terrifying because these parts are stuck in horrible places often with a lot of terror. And so what's called bad trips is them trying to get attention. So they'll come in and they'll totally take over and you'll look like you're having a panic attack.

But what we've learned, and this happened a few times last week, is instead of thinking of it as a panic attack or a bad trip, to welcome it. Here's a part that needs a lot of attention. It's taken over entirely. But if I were to say, okay, Andrew, I see you're really scared, but how do you feel toward this really scared part that's here now? And I could get you to say, I feel sorry for it.

But what we've learned, and this happened a few times last week, is instead of thinking of it as a panic attack or a bad trip, to welcome it. Here's a part that needs a lot of attention. It's taken over entirely. But if I were to say, okay, Andrew, I see you're really scared, but how do you feel toward this really scared part that's here now? And I could get you to say, I feel sorry for it.

Then I would have you start to get to know it and work with it and comfort it rather than have a panic attack. You would access calm and those C words, and then it becomes a hugely useful healing of something that's in you that's stuck in a terrified place.

Then I would have you start to get to know it and work with it and comfort it rather than have a panic attack. You would access calm and those C words, and then it becomes a hugely useful healing of something that's in you that's stuck in a terrified place.

Because- Let me wrap up on that for a second.

Because- Let me wrap up on that for a second.

Just as an example, like I've done workshops where I have people work with their racism. You're speaking of something very shameful. And a lot of people say, I'm not a racist. I don't have any racism. But if I really convince them to look inside and check...

Just as an example, like I've done workshops where I have people work with their racism. You're speaking of something very shameful. And a lot of people say, I'm not a racist. I don't have any racism. But if I really convince them to look inside and check...

they'll find there's a little part in there that does spout racist things when they meet somebody of a different skin color, has these white supremacy beliefs, and they're really ashamed of it.

they'll find there's a little part in there that does spout racist things when they meet somebody of a different skin color, has these white supremacy beliefs, and they're really ashamed of it.

So if I were to have you focus on that racist voice in there, you would have to get a lot of the parts that are ashamed of it to step out, and then I would have you get curious about it rather than ashamed of it, and ask it about where it picked up these beliefs. And it could tell you, And then I would ask, do you like having to carry this racist stuff? Usually they'll say no.

So if I were to have you focus on that racist voice in there, you would have to get a lot of the parts that are ashamed of it to step out, and then I would have you get curious about it rather than ashamed of it, and ask it about where it picked up these beliefs. And it could tell you, And then I would ask, do you like having to carry this racist stuff? Usually they'll say no.

If it's ready to unload it, we can just unload it. So one of the key things to know is these parts are not the burdens they carry. They're all good. The little guy who's got the racist rant is a part that got stuck with his beliefs. But when he releases those beliefs, he transforms into being a good.

If it's ready to unload it, we can just unload it. So one of the key things to know is these parts are not the burdens they carry. They're all good. The little guy who's got the racist rant is a part that got stuck with his beliefs. But when he releases those beliefs, he transforms into being a good.

And the mistake our culture makes, the mistake that most psychotherapies make, is to assume that he is that racist rant and to try to exile him. But it's a different way of understanding even very seemingly evil people, that they're dominated by these protectors. and they're so afraid of their exiles. And they relate inside in the same way they relate outside.

And the mistake our culture makes, the mistake that most psychotherapies make, is to assume that he is that racist rant and to try to exile him. But it's a different way of understanding even very seemingly evil people, that they're dominated by these protectors. and they're so afraid of their exiles. And they relate inside in the same way they relate outside.

So if they hate parts of themselves, they'll hate people who resemble those parts of them. They'll try to dominate those people. Do you follow what I'm saying?

So if they hate parts of themselves, they'll hate people who resemble those parts of them. They'll try to dominate those people. Do you follow what I'm saying?

And for me, that isn't always true, but that's sometimes true.

And for me, that isn't always true, but that's sometimes true.

Which we already established.

Which we already established.

Not always.

Not always.

But a lot of the time. So if you can come to have compassion for that judgmental part of you and not be embattled with it and actually see it as desperately trying to help you be more discerning and help it unburden and get out of this role that it's in. Because in the role that it's in, it can be destructive.

But a lot of the time. So if you can come to have compassion for that judgmental part of you and not be embattled with it and actually see it as desperately trying to help you be more discerning and help it unburden and get out of this role that it's in. Because in the role that it's in, it can be destructive.

We're not trying to minimize that or say, you know, when I say all parts are, there are no bad parts, there are no bad parts, but they can get into very destructive roles. And they can carry these burdens from the past that can drive them to be harmful. But part of my work is to help all that change. And so if you were to start a new relationship with that judgmental part of you,

We're not trying to minimize that or say, you know, when I say all parts are, there are no bad parts, there are no bad parts, but they can get into very destructive roles. And they can carry these burdens from the past that can drive them to be harmful. But part of my work is to help all that change. And so if you were to start a new relationship with that judgmental part of you,

then you would see past the judgmental parts of other people, and you could see the exiles that drive those protectors, and you would have compassion for them. It wouldn't mean you wouldn't stop them or stand up to them, but you would do it with compassion rather than from these hateful protectors.

then you would see past the judgmental parts of other people, and you could see the exiles that drive those protectors, and you would have compassion for them. It wouldn't mean you wouldn't stop them or stand up to them, but you would do it with compassion rather than from these hateful protectors.

That's right.

That's right.

The opposite is actually true because these protectors will generate often what they fear. So by being so protective, they'll create protectors in the other that will attack, whereas if they could stay in self, self can be very protective with those C-word qualities, very forceful, sometimes pierce.

The opposite is actually true because these protectors will generate often what they fear. So by being so protective, they'll create protectors in the other that will attack, whereas if they could stay in self, self can be very protective with those C-word qualities, very forceful, sometimes pierce.

Okay, so I did a book called You're the One You've Been Waiting For. And in it, I talked about this whole issue. And so for a lot of people, you get hurt by your parent. And there are parts that want to protect you from your parent. But there are other parts who took on the worthlessness from being rejected by your parent and are desperate for redemption. Do you follow this?

Okay, so I did a book called You're the One You've Been Waiting For. And in it, I talked about this whole issue. And so for a lot of people, you get hurt by your parent. And there are parts that want to protect you from your parent. But there are other parts who took on the worthlessness from being rejected by your parent and are desperate for redemption. Do you follow this?

And so as you leave and you're looking for a partner, that part from a subconscious place can influence your decision to find somebody who resembles that parent in their effort to be redeemed again.

And so as you leave and you're looking for a partner, that part from a subconscious place can influence your decision to find somebody who resembles that parent in their effort to be redeemed again.

That's a version of what I'm talking about. And so you find somebody who does resemble that person, that parent. And unfortunately, they do resemble that parent. And so they'll hurt you in the same way. And then your protectors go into one of four modes. They'll say, I've got to change that person back into who they're supposed to be. So they'll try to change the person's behavior.

That's a version of what I'm talking about. And so you find somebody who does resemble that person, that parent. And unfortunately, they do resemble that parent. And so they'll hurt you in the same way. And then your protectors go into one of four modes. They'll say, I've got to change that person back into who they're supposed to be. So they'll try to change the person's behavior.

Or they'll say, I've got to change myself so they'll be who they're supposed to be. Or they'll say, oh, this wasn't the Redeemer after all, and they'll go looking for the real Redeemer who's still out there.

Or they'll say, I've got to change myself so they'll be who they're supposed to be. Or they'll say, oh, this wasn't the Redeemer after all, and they'll go looking for the real Redeemer who's still out there.

And, yeah, that's what I try to do is to help them see that that Redeemer is inside of them itself. And if we can go to that exile who's got this thing for this parent-like person and help it connect to self and help it unburdened, that whole repetition compulsion disappears because now they can take care of themselves. They trust self to do it.

And, yeah, that's what I try to do is to help them see that that Redeemer is inside of them itself. And if we can go to that exile who's got this thing for this parent-like person and help it connect to self and help it unburdened, that whole repetition compulsion disappears because now they can take care of themselves. They trust self to do it.

They don't need that from some other person like that. And so when we're working with couples, and you always find some version of that in couples, if we can get each of them to become their own good attachment figure, good caretaker inside,

They don't need that from some other person like that. And so when we're working with couples, and you always find some version of that in couples, if we can get each of them to become their own good attachment figure, good caretaker inside,

That frees up the partner because when this exile is leading the relationship, your partner feels a lot of sort of demands or feels a lot like your partner has to take care of that young part of you and can't, can't fully do it. So there's always this sense of a burden. You know what I'm saying?

That frees up the partner because when this exile is leading the relationship, your partner feels a lot of sort of demands or feels a lot like your partner has to take care of that young part of you and can't, can't fully do it. So there's always this sense of a burden. You know what I'm saying?

25%, 30%? I really can't say because my sample is very skewed. I'm working with psychotherapy patients who always have a lot of trauma. So I really can't say. I mean, I'm very biased.

25%, 30%? I really can't say because my sample is very skewed. I'm working with psychotherapy patients who always have a lot of trauma. So I really can't say. I mean, I'm very biased.

Yeah, I mean, like I was saying, there's a lot you can do with working with your protectors and helping them get to know self. Like, we didn't do it, but had you asked that titanium teddy bear how old it thought you were and just really waited for the answer... Most people will get a single digit. It still thinks you're very young.

Yeah, I mean, like I was saying, there's a lot you can do with working with your protectors and helping them get to know self. Like, we didn't do it, but had you asked that titanium teddy bear how old it thought you were and just really waited for the answer... Most people will get a single digit. It still thinks you're very young.

And it still thinks it has to protect you the way it did when you were very young. And just even updating it. creates a huge amount of relief with these protectors. So there's a lot that can be done just by working with protectors, introducing them to self, helping them see they don't have to keep doing this all the time.

And it still thinks it has to protect you the way it did when you were very young. And just even updating it. creates a huge amount of relief with these protectors. So there's a lot that can be done just by working with protectors, introducing them to self, helping them see they don't have to keep doing this all the time.

Some protectors, it's very hard for them to totally drop their weapons until what they protect has been healed. So that's where the therapist comes in. So, you know, there are coaches doing this work, for example. They'll work with some executive and they'll do great and then they'll get to an exile. And then they'll have the person see an IFS therapist for a couple sessions to heal the exile.

Some protectors, it's very hard for them to totally drop their weapons until what they protect has been healed. So that's where the therapist comes in. So, you know, there are coaches doing this work, for example. They'll work with some executive and they'll do great and then they'll get to an exile. And then they'll have the person see an IFS therapist for a couple sessions to heal the exile.

and then come back because, um, you know, coaches aren't trained as therapists and right. So yeah, there's still need for therapists, but, um, yeah, but you can do a lot on your own.

and then come back because, um, you know, coaches aren't trained as therapists and right. So yeah, there's still need for therapists, but, um, yeah, but you can do a lot on your own.

Yeah, exactly. And that's why I'm so grateful to you that you were willing to try it and, Because it's true, as I describe it to people, they don't really get it until they actually feel it, experience it. And it is very different from many other therapies, which are much more cognitively based, because we're trying to bypass that and actually get to this raw stuff in here.

Yeah, exactly. And that's why I'm so grateful to you that you were willing to try it and, Because it's true, as I describe it to people, they don't really get it until they actually feel it, experience it. And it is very different from many other therapies, which are much more cognitively based, because we're trying to bypass that and actually get to this raw stuff in here.

Yeah, and let me lead by saying, please don't do this if you have fear about doing it. But if you're interested in some inner exploration, then I'll lead you through some of the steps. As you've been listening to our conversation, I'm speaking to the listeners, you may be thinking about some of your own parts, particularly your own protectors.

Yeah, and let me lead by saying, please don't do this if you have fear about doing it. But if you're interested in some inner exploration, then I'll lead you through some of the steps. As you've been listening to our conversation, I'm speaking to the listeners, you may be thinking about some of your own parts, particularly your own protectors.

And if you can't think of any, most people have a kind of critic inside or part that makes them work too hard or a part that takes care of too many people. So I'm going to invite you to pick a protective part to try to get to know for a few minutes. And just notice that inner voice or that emotion, that thought pattern, that sensation. Just focus on it exclusively for a second. And as you do that,

And if you can't think of any, most people have a kind of critic inside or part that makes them work too hard or a part that takes care of too many people. So I'm going to invite you to pick a protective part to try to get to know for a few minutes. And just notice that inner voice or that emotion, that thought pattern, that sensation. Just focus on it exclusively for a second. And as you do that,

Notice where it seems to be located in your body or around your body. And just take a second with that. And some people don't find a location. Some people, they still sense it, but it's not clear where it seems to be located. But if you do find it in or around your body, just focus on it there. And as you focus on it, notice how you feel toward it.

Notice where it seems to be located in your body or around your body. And just take a second with that. And some people don't find a location. Some people, they still sense it, but it's not clear where it seems to be located. But if you do find it in or around your body, just focus on it there. And as you focus on it, notice how you feel toward it.

And by that I mean, do you dislike it and want to get rid of it? Are you afraid of it? Do you resent how it dominates? Do you depend on it? So you have a relationship with this part of you. And if you feel anything except a kind of openness or curiosity or willingness to get to know it, then that's coming from other parts that have been trying to deal with it.

And by that I mean, do you dislike it and want to get rid of it? Are you afraid of it? Do you resent how it dominates? Do you depend on it? So you have a relationship with this part of you. And if you feel anything except a kind of openness or curiosity or willingness to get to know it, then that's coming from other parts that have been trying to deal with it.

We're just going to ask those other parts of you to relax back for just a few minutes so you can get to know it. We're not going to have it take over more. We're just going to get to know it better. So see if they're willing to let you open your mind to it. And if they're not, then we're not going to pursue this.

We're just going to ask those other parts of you to relax back for just a few minutes so you can get to know it. We're not going to have it take over more. We're just going to get to know it better. So see if they're willing to let you open your mind to it. And if they're not, then we're not going to pursue this.

And you can just get to know their fear about letting you get to know this target part. But if you do get to that point of just being curious about it without an agenda, then ask it what it wants you to know about itself. It's that kind of nice open-ended question. And don't think of the answer. Just wait and see what comes from that place in your body. And don't judge what comes.

And you can just get to know their fear about letting you get to know this target part. But if you do get to that point of just being curious about it without an agenda, then ask it what it wants you to know about itself. It's that kind of nice open-ended question. And don't think of the answer. Just wait and see what comes from that place in your body. And don't judge what comes.

Just whatever comes, we'll go with it. What does it want you to know about itself? And what's it afraid would happen if it didn't do this inside of you? And if you got an answer to that question about the fear, then it was telling you something about how it's been trying to protect you.

Just whatever comes, we'll go with it. What does it want you to know about itself? And what's it afraid would happen if it didn't do this inside of you? And if you got an answer to that question about the fear, then it was telling you something about how it's been trying to protect you.

And if that's true, then extend some appreciation to it for at least trying to keep you safe, even if it backfires or it doesn't work. Let it know you appreciate that it's trying to protect you. And see how it reacts to your appreciation. And then ask if you could go to what it protects and heal or change that so it didn't need to protect you so much.

And if that's true, then extend some appreciation to it for at least trying to keep you safe, even if it backfires or it doesn't work. Let it know you appreciate that it's trying to protect you. And see how it reacts to your appreciation. And then ask if you could go to what it protects and heal or change that so it didn't need to protect you so much.

What might it like to do instead inside of you if it was released from this role? And I'll repeat that. If you could go to what it protects and heal or change that so it was liberated from this protective role, what might it like to do instead inside of you? And then ask it this kind of odd question. How old does this part think you are? Not how old is it, but how old does it think you are?

What might it like to do instead inside of you if it was released from this role? And I'll repeat that. If you could go to what it protects and heal or change that so it was liberated from this protective role, what might it like to do instead inside of you? And then ask it this kind of odd question. How old does this part think you are? Not how old is it, but how old does it think you are?

And again, don't think. Just wait and see what comes. And if it got your age wrong, then go ahead and update it and see how it reacts. And the last question for this part is, what does it need from you going forward? What does it need from you? And again, just wait for the answer. And when the time feels right, thank your parts for whatever they let you do in this.

And again, don't think. Just wait and see what comes. And if it got your age wrong, then go ahead and update it and see how it reacts. And the last question for this part is, what does it need from you going forward? What does it need from you? And again, just wait for the answer. And when the time feels right, thank your parts for whatever they let you do in this.

And then begin to shift your focus back outside and maybe take some deep breaths as you do that.

And then begin to shift your focus back outside and maybe take some deep breaths as you do that.

Yeah, so it's great to do the work session or this exercise, but ideally it's the beginning of a new relationship with this part. And that takes work on your own. So what I advise people is as you get that ball rolling in that good direction, it'll reverse if you don't stay with it for a while.

Yeah, so it's great to do the work session or this exercise, but ideally it's the beginning of a new relationship with this part. And that takes work on your own. So what I advise people is as you get that ball rolling in that good direction, it'll reverse if you don't stay with it for a while.

So every day, like you were saying, you wake up, rather than what am I going to do today or what problems do I have in my life, how's that part of me doing that I've been starting to work with? What does it need from me today? What does it want me to know? Is it still feeling better? Do I still have compassion for it or appreciation for it?

So every day, like you were saying, you wake up, rather than what am I going to do today or what problems do I have in my life, how's that part of me doing that I've been starting to work with? What does it need from me today? What does it want me to know? Is it still feeling better? Do I still have compassion for it or appreciation for it?

So this, like I said earlier, this kind of becomes a life practice. So I do that every morning. Every morning?

So this, like I said earlier, this kind of becomes a life practice. So I do that every morning. Every morning?

Exactly right. So yeah, I'll check in. not with all my parts because I've met many, many, but the ones I've been working with just to see how they're doing. And as I go through the day, I'll notice, am I in those C word qualities? Is my heart open? Is my mind curious? Do I have a big agenda? Anything, any departures from that is a protector usually.

Exactly right. So yeah, I'll check in. not with all my parts because I've met many, many, but the ones I've been working with just to see how they're doing. And as I go through the day, I'll notice, am I in those C word qualities? Is my heart open? Is my mind curious? Do I have a big agenda? Anything, any departures from that is a protector usually.

And I'll just have a little internal board meeting and say, I get, you feel like, Like in preparing to come and be on this podcast, I had to work with the parts that were nervous. My father was a big scientist, a big endocrinology researcher.

And I'll just have a little internal board meeting and say, I get, you feel like, Like in preparing to come and be on this podcast, I had to work with the parts that were nervous. My father was a big scientist, a big endocrinology researcher.

Great field. My brother is a big shot endocrinology researcher. So I have some... some issues, put it that way.

Great field. My brother is a big shot endocrinology researcher. So I have some... some issues, put it that way.

Well, that was my part's worries coming in. And so I worked on it and said, okay, but just I get it. I get you're scared. I could feel them in my hands when I was taking a drink earlier. Interesting. But I just kept, okay, I get that. I get you're scared, but just trust me. Just step back. Just relax. And then I feel this shift, a literal shift.

Well, that was my part's worries coming in. And so I worked on it and said, okay, but just I get it. I get you're scared. I could feel them in my hands when I was taking a drink earlier. Interesting. But I just kept, okay, I get that. I get you're scared, but just trust me. Just step back. Just relax. And then I feel this shift, a literal shift.

And then I feel those C words flooding. And then we have a much different kind of conversation. So it's a life practice in that sense.

And then I feel those C words flooding. And then we have a much different kind of conversation. So it's a life practice in that sense.

Yes. So, yeah, the big distinction is between parts that by dint of simply being hurt or terrified or made to feel shamed and worthless. And usually those are our most sensitive parts. They're the young inner children. They get stuck with those burdens of worthlessness, terror, and emotional pain. And then we don't want anything to do with them because they can overwhelm us.

Yes. So, yeah, the big distinction is between parts that by dint of simply being hurt or terrified or made to feel shamed and worthless. And usually those are our most sensitive parts. They're the young inner children. They get stuck with those burdens of worthlessness, terror, and emotional pain. And then we don't want anything to do with them because they can overwhelm us.

Yeah, the why question I can't totally answer, but it definitely is. And for me, traumas aren't necessarily traumatizing. So something bad happens to you, and if you can access what you and Martha Beck were calling the self, capital S, and you go to the part of you that got hurt by what happened,

Yeah, the why question I can't totally answer, but it definitely is. And for me, traumas aren't necessarily traumatizing. So something bad happens to you, and if you can access what you and Martha Beck were calling the self, capital S, and you go to the part of you that got hurt by what happened,

And so we lock them away. And everybody tells us to do that. So those are the exiles. And when you have a lot of exiles, these other parts are forced to become protectors. So there are two classes of protectors. One are the managers we've been talking about. and the other are the firefighters. So, you know, we mentioned a number of manager common roles, but there's just lots and lots of them.

And so we lock them away. And everybody tells us to do that. So those are the exiles. And when you have a lot of exiles, these other parts are forced to become protectors. So there are two classes of protectors. One are the managers we've been talking about. and the other are the firefighters. So, you know, we mentioned a number of manager common roles, but there's just lots and lots of them.

Firefighter common roles include, you know, addictions, excuse me, dissociating, the kind of judgmental, rageful parts, I could go on, but anything that is reactive, impulsive, and is designed to protect those vulnerable parts, but in an impulsive way, as opposed to the managers who are all about control and pleasing, these firefighters are all about

Firefighter common roles include, you know, addictions, excuse me, dissociating, the kind of judgmental, rageful parts, I could go on, but anything that is reactive, impulsive, and is designed to protect those vulnerable parts, but in an impulsive way, as opposed to the managers who are all about control and pleasing, these firefighters are all about

If I don't get you away from these feelings right now, you're gonna die. A lot of them believe that. And some of them, it's true. So there's often a kind of hierarchy of firefighter activities. If the first one doesn't work, you go to the next one. If that doesn't work, the top of the hierarchy for most people is suicide. If things get painful enough, There's this exit strategy.

If I don't get you away from these feelings right now, you're gonna die. A lot of them believe that. And some of them, it's true. So there's often a kind of hierarchy of firefighter activities. If the first one doesn't work, you go to the next one. If that doesn't work, the top of the hierarchy for most people is suicide. If things get painful enough, There's this exit strategy.

It's actually very comforting to lots of people. And here we come along and get really scared of these suicidal parts. So this is, again, it's one of the hallmarks of the difference with IFS. If you were to say you've got a suicidal part, say, let's go get to know it. I would have you find it and, you know, all the steps. What are you afraid would happen if you didn't kill Andrew?

It's actually very comforting to lots of people. And here we come along and get really scared of these suicidal parts. So this is, again, it's one of the hallmarks of the difference with IFS. If you were to say you've got a suicidal part, say, let's go get to know it. I would have you find it and, you know, all the steps. What are you afraid would happen if you didn't kill Andrew?

What do you think the answer to that is most of the time?

What do you think the answer to that is most of the time?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Exactly.

Exactly.

These parts believe it.

These parts believe it.

So my response to that part is if we could unload the pain that you're so afraid would overwhelm, would you have to kill him?

So my response to that part is if we could unload the pain that you're so afraid would overwhelm, would you have to kill him?

And would you let us do that?

And would you let us do that?

Okay. So because we can prove to you that we can unload that pain. And if we could do that, what would you like to do instead of being the suicidal part?

Okay. So because we can prove to you that we can unload that pain. And if we could do that, what would you like to do instead of being the suicidal part?

That's okay.

That's okay.

instead of pushing it away and locking it up, and you embrace it and you bring it closer to you, which means going to your suffering, which is counter to what most of us try to do. But if you were to do that and you could help it unload the feelings it got from the trauma, then you're not traumatized. What's traumatizing is something bad happens

instead of pushing it away and locking it up, and you embrace it and you bring it closer to you, which means going to your suffering, which is counter to what most of us try to do. But if you were to do that and you could help it unload the feelings it got from the trauma, then you're not traumatized. What's traumatizing is something bad happens

It's a really nice analogy.

It's a really nice analogy.

So that... Suicidal part often transforms into part that wants to help you live, actually. They're often in the role that's opposite of who they really are. So as you can hear, this is a totally different approach to suicide, for example. And we do the same with addictive firefighters. Find that part that makes you so high. How do you feel toward it? I hate it. I want to be in recovery.

So that... Suicidal part often transforms into part that wants to help you live, actually. They're often in the role that's opposite of who they really are. So as you can hear, this is a totally different approach to suicide, for example. And we do the same with addictive firefighters. Find that part that makes you so high. How do you feel toward it? I hate it. I want to be in recovery.

I want to lock it up. Let's get all that to step out and just get curious about it and ask it what it's afraid would happen if it didn't get you high all the time. Same answer. If we could heal all that pain or that shame, would you have to get them high all the time? No, but I don't think you can do that. Would you give us a chance to prove we can?

I want to lock it up. Let's get all that to step out and just get curious about it and ask it what it's afraid would happen if it didn't get you high all the time. Same answer. If we could heal all that pain or that shame, would you have to get them high all the time? No, but I don't think you can do that. Would you give us a chance to prove we can?

Totally different approach to all these problems.

Totally different approach to all these problems.

What are you afraid would happen if you didn't do this to them?

What are you afraid would happen if you didn't do this to them?

These more vulnerable parts of us, the most sensitive parts of us, get hurt or feel worthless because of what happened or get terrified. And then we lock them away because we don't want to feel that feeling anymore. And everybody around us tells us to just let it go, just move on, don't look back. And so we wind up exiling our most sensitive parts simply because they got hurt.

These more vulnerable parts of us, the most sensitive parts of us, get hurt or feel worthless because of what happened or get terrified. And then we lock them away because we don't want to feel that feeling anymore. And everybody around us tells us to just let it go, just move on, don't look back. And so we wind up exiling our most sensitive parts simply because they got hurt.

Well, you remember what I was saying earlier when we talked to these addict parts. What are you afraid would happen if you didn't make them high? He would die. So that's a really common answer. And basically what you just described is you were doing IFS without knowing it. Asking those questions, what are you really afraid of? What are you really afraid of? Did you get to the key answer?

Well, you remember what I was saying earlier when we talked to these addict parts. What are you afraid would happen if you didn't make them high? He would die. So that's a really common answer. And basically what you just described is you were doing IFS without knowing it. Asking those questions, what are you really afraid of? What are you really afraid of? Did you get to the key answer?

And then I don't know how you helped that part that feared death, but somehow you helped it relax more.

And then I don't know how you helped that part that feared death, but somehow you helped it relax more.

You know?

You know?

Yeah, so all these little machines we have and all the ways we have of never spending any time by ourselves or alone or thinking just feed these protective parts, these distractors, and leave in the dust more and more these exiled parts.

Yeah, so all these little machines we have and all the ways we have of never spending any time by ourselves or alone or thinking just feed these protective parts, these distractors, and leave in the dust more and more these exiled parts.

And then when you have a lot of exiles, you feel more delicate. The world seems more dangerous because anything could trigger that. And when they get triggered, they'll blow up. They'll take over. So it's like these flames of raw emotion come popping out. So other parts are forced into these manager roles or these protective roles.

And then when you have a lot of exiles, you feel more delicate. The world seems more dangerous because anything could trigger that. And when they get triggered, they'll blow up. They'll take over. So it's like these flames of raw emotion come popping out. So other parts are forced into these manager roles or these protective roles.

So a lot of people's fear of not having something to do is because when they don't, or if they're not working in your case, then these exiled parts start to come forward. They're not being distracted from. In my case, I mentioned my father, I'm the oldest of six boys. Oh, wow.

So a lot of people's fear of not having something to do is because when they don't, or if they're not working in your case, then these exiled parts start to come forward. They're not being distracted from. In my case, I mentioned my father, I'm the oldest of six boys. Oh, wow.

I was supposed to be a physician like him and a researcher, and I was spared that fate because I had undiagnosed ADD and wasn't a good student. And three of my brothers were physician research types. But I was the oldest, so he was really hard on me in terms of lazy and worthless and so on. So I came out of my family with a lot of worthlessness.

I was supposed to be a physician like him and a researcher, and I was spared that fate because I had undiagnosed ADD and wasn't a good student. And three of my brothers were physician research types. But I was the oldest, so he was really hard on me in terms of lazy and worthless and so on. So I came out of my family with a lot of worthlessness.

And actually the model wouldn't exist if I didn't have that because I had this part that had to prove him wrong and drive me, not to the extent you're talking about or sleeping in the office or anything, but it would drive me to find this model and then take it in the face of a lot of attack to where it is now.

And actually the model wouldn't exist if I didn't have that because I had this part that had to prove him wrong and drive me, not to the extent you're talking about or sleeping in the office or anything, but it would drive me to find this model and then take it in the face of a lot of attack to where it is now.

And if I wasn't working on it, if I wasn't getting the accolades, then that worthlessness would crop up. And then I'd have other firefighters to try and deal with that. And, you know, I had not only the workaholic part, but I had a part that could close my heart and make me not care what people think because I was attacked by traditional psychiatry and so on.

And if I wasn't working on it, if I wasn't getting the accolades, then that worthlessness would crop up. And then I'd have other firefighters to try and deal with that. And, you know, I had not only the workaholic part, but I had a part that could close my heart and make me not care what people think because I was attacked by traditional psychiatry and so on.

Yeah. I was humiliated at Grand Rounds a couple times. I was in the Department of Psychiatry.

Yeah. I was humiliated at Grand Rounds a couple times. I was in the Department of Psychiatry.

That's a good question. So point being that I was dominated as I developed this by these protectors, and it got me through all that, but it didn't serve me as a leader of a community. And I was lucky to have some students who would confront my parts and would just say, you can't keep going on like this if you're going to be any use to us.

That's a good question. So point being that I was dominated as I developed this by these protectors, and it got me through all that, but it didn't serve me as a leader of a community. And I was lucky to have some students who would confront my parts and would just say, you can't keep going on like this if you're going to be any use to us.

And I listened, and I went and worked with that worthlessness. And now I don't have it. I don't have to work. I don't, you know, it's just I feel free because I'm not so afraid of that bubbling up if I'm not distracted. And now we have more distractions than ever, as we're saying,

And I listened, and I went and worked with that worthlessness. And now I don't have it. I don't have to work. I don't, you know, it's just I feel free because I'm not so afraid of that bubbling up if I'm not distracted. And now we have more distractions than ever, as we're saying,

Yeah, there are some good psychiatrists.

Yeah, there are some good psychiatrists.

That's interesting.

That's interesting.

And some of them are trying to manage your life so that you don't get triggered anymore, so that For example, nobody gets close enough to you to trigger any of that or so you look really good so you don't get rejected or perform at a really high level to counter the worthlessness.

And some of them are trying to manage your life so that you don't get triggered anymore, so that For example, nobody gets close enough to you to trigger any of that or so you look really good so you don't get rejected or perform at a really high level to counter the worthlessness.

I agree with you entirely. And I'm, you know, I tried to stay in psychiatry and just kept hitting the brick wall, and so I went grassroots for 30 years, and now it's starting to come around into psychiatry, so it feels good that way.

I agree with you entirely. And I'm, you know, I tried to stay in psychiatry and just kept hitting the brick wall, and so I went grassroots for 30 years, and now it's starting to come around into psychiatry, so it feels good that way.

That's true. And I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for that Department of Psychiatry to invite me back.

That's true. And I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for that Department of Psychiatry to invite me back.

Many of those become the critics because in their effort to try to get you to look good, they're yelling at you to try and behave and do what they want so you look better. And then there are other what we call manager protectors that are – for some people, particularly women, have these massive caretaking parts that don't let them take care of themselves and take care of everybody else.

Many of those become the critics because in their effort to try to get you to look good, they're yelling at you to try and behave and do what they want so you look better. And then there are other what we call manager protectors that are – for some people, particularly women, have these massive caretaking parts that don't let them take care of themselves and take care of everybody else.

Yeah, well, that's what I've been working on the last several years. And what I can say is, for example, I spent 20 years, like, you know, I worked with bulimia, like I said, and I thought, okay, this really works with that population.

Yeah, well, that's what I've been working on the last several years. And what I can say is, for example, I spent 20 years, like, you know, I worked with bulimia, like I said, and I thought, okay, this really works with that population.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then... I thought, okay, well, let's see if no bad parts is really true. And so I went to the toughest populations I could find. And so for 20 years, I worked with DID and I worked with— DID, sorry. Dissociative identity disorder, like multiple personality disorder. Mm-hmm. And I worked with what's called borderline personality clients.

And then... I thought, okay, well, let's see if no bad parts is really true. And so I went to the toughest populations I could find. And so for 20 years, I worked with DID and I worked with— DID, sorry. Dissociative identity disorder, like multiple personality disorder. Mm-hmm. And I worked with what's called borderline personality clients.

It's because people fight with the symptoms. They try to get rid of the symptoms instead of listening to the part that's making them binge about what that's about.

It's because people fight with the symptoms. They try to get rid of the symptoms instead of listening to the part that's making them binge about what that's about.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, you know, there's in the activist world, there's always been a kind of you're wasting your time, but There's been a polarization between being in the activist mindset of really trying to change things in the outside world versus sitting around and just focusing inside and not being an activist. But I'm working with a lot of the people you would recognize in terms of activists.

And, you know, there's in the activist world, there's always been a kind of you're wasting your time, but There's been a polarization between being in the activist mindset of really trying to change things in the outside world versus sitting around and just focusing inside and not being an activist. But I'm working with a lot of the people you would recognize in terms of activists.

And when they came to me, they were doing their activism from the sort of righteous, judgmental part. And if we can get that one to step back and have them do their activism from self, they have a totally different impact. People are willing to listen to them, whereas when they're in that righteous place, nobody wants to listen to the shaming that does. It needs to be both.

And when they came to me, they were doing their activism from the sort of righteous, judgmental part. And if we can get that one to step back and have them do their activism from self, they have a totally different impact. People are willing to listen to them, whereas when they're in that righteous place, nobody wants to listen to the shaming that does. It needs to be both.

People need to do their work access self, and then start to try to change the outside world. Or not one before the other, but at least simultaneously.

People need to do their work access self, and then start to try to change the outside world. Or not one before the other, but at least simultaneously.

So I could go on and on. There's a lot of common – manager roles. And I want to make clear as I'm talking about this, that these are not the essence of the parts. And that's a big mistake that most of the field has made is to assume the critic is just a internalized critical parent voice instead of listening to it and hearing that it's desperately trying to protect you.

So I could go on and on. There's a lot of common – manager roles. And I want to make clear as I'm talking about this, that these are not the essence of the parts. And that's a big mistake that most of the field has made is to assume the critic is just a internalized critical parent voice instead of listening to it and hearing that it's desperately trying to protect you.

I really appreciate you giving me the opportunity.

I really appreciate you giving me the opportunity.

Me too. Oh, my God. My little nervous parts were giving me a lot of trouble. But once we got going, I just felt connected and I felt your appreciation and interest. And so we could have this kind of self-to-self exchange, which I love. I just love spending time in that energy. Yeah, likewise. And, you know, you're a great interviewer too.

Me too. Oh, my God. My little nervous parts were giving me a lot of trouble. But once we got going, I just felt connected and I felt your appreciation and interest. And so we could have this kind of self-to-self exchange, which I love. I just love spending time in that energy. Yeah, likewise. And, you know, you're a great interviewer too.

Yeah. Yeah, it's clear.

Yeah. Yeah, it's clear.

So none of these are what they seem. That's the role they've been forced into. And the analogy, again, is to an external family. Like kids in dysfunctional families are forced into these extreme roles that aren't who they are. It's the role they got forced into by the dynamics of the family. So the same is true with this internal family. So most of us have a lot of what we call managers.

So none of these are what they seem. That's the role they've been forced into. And the analogy, again, is to an external family. Like kids in dysfunctional families are forced into these extreme roles that aren't who they are. It's the role they got forced into by the dynamics of the family. So the same is true with this internal family. So most of us have a lot of what we call managers.

They got us here. They help us in our careers. And other systems would call them the defenses or the ego. And, you know, in spirituality they get vilified too. But their whole M.O. is keep everything under control, please everybody, and you'll survive. The world has a way of breaking through those defenses, triggering an exile. When that happens, it's a big emergency.

They got us here. They help us in our careers. And other systems would call them the defenses or the ego. And, you know, in spirituality they get vilified too. But their whole M.O. is keep everything under control, please everybody, and you'll survive. The world has a way of breaking through those defenses, triggering an exile. When that happens, it's a big emergency.

Because again, these flames of raw emotion are going to overwhelm you and make you have trouble functioning or even getting out of bed. So there are other parts that immediately go into action to deal with that emergency. And in contrast to these managers, They're impulsive, reactive, damn the torpedoes. I don't care about the collateral damage to your body, to your relationships.

Because again, these flames of raw emotion are going to overwhelm you and make you have trouble functioning or even getting out of bed. So there are other parts that immediately go into action to deal with that emergency. And in contrast to these managers, They're impulsive, reactive, damn the torpedoes. I don't care about the collateral damage to your body, to your relationships.

I just got to get you higher than those flames or douse them with some substance or distract you till they burn themselves out. So we call those firefighters. And again, these are just the roles. When released from these roles, they'll transform into being something very valuable.

I just got to get you higher than those flames or douse them with some substance or distract you till they burn themselves out. So we call those firefighters. And again, these are just the roles. When released from these roles, they'll transform into being something very valuable.

Jung had all this a long time ago.

Jung had all this a long time ago.

So overwhelmed with anger at each other? Frustration. Frustration, yeah.

Yeah.

Totally agree. Yeah. I had one of those with my wife a few days ago. Okay. All right. Well. And, yeah, very similar. Just caught that part and said, okay, let's just let it go for now and we'll talk later. So I could give you my take on what happened, but if you wanted to, we could just go in and do a little exploring.

Yeah?

Okay. Should we start with the frustrated, angry part?

All right. You ready?

Okay. So remember that feeling and then focus on it and find it in your body or around your body. Okay. Where do you find it?

It's great. Both places. It's great you have such clarity about it. So as you focus there, how do you feel toward this part of you?

So you don't like it?

Yeah. Which makes sense because it does, you know, sometimes escalate things with your friend and doesn't leave you feeling good. So I understand why you don't like it. But we're going to ask the parts that don't like it to give us the space to just get curious about it and see if that's possible. Okay. Okay. So how do you feel toward it now?

So you do feel curious toward it? Yeah. All right. So go ahead and ask it what it wants you to know about itself. Silently? Up to you. Either way. Whichever is more comfortable.

Yeah. And just wait for the answer. Don't think. I know you've got a big cognitive part, so we're going to ask that one to relax. And just whatever comes in terms of the answer, just wait for it.

Thank you, Andrew. It's delightful to be with you.

So it relaxed. It may not have dissipated in the way we think about that. It might have just relaxed more. But just keep asking it, what's it afraid would happen if in that context it didn't try to take over in the way that it did? Just ask that question.

Yeah, what's it afraid would happen if it hadn't tried to take over? Oh. Just wait for the answer.

Yeah. Don't think, yeah.

Okay. So the truth is really important to this part of you.

Right.

Okay, so just stay with this thing. Just stay with it.

And let it know you get that, that having people misinterpret your motives is really, really hard for it. And ask it more about that. Just, again, don't think, but ask why that's so hard. Why does that bother it so much?

So there's something about making sense or nothing making sense that it's really scared of. Is that right?

Yeah. So speaking of protect, and so this is a protector part, right? Ask it if it's protecting other parts of you that are vulnerable and get hurt when someone misattunes to what your motive is. Just ask that question. Don't think.

So what I'm hearing is this guy, this titanium guy, is keeping at bay another part that can be very judgmental of the other person.

Yeah.

Well, originally I developed it as a form of psychotherapy, which is probably the way it's used most now, but it's also become a kind of life practice and just a paradigm for understanding the human mind and as an alternative to the culture's paradigm. So that's saying a lot, and it's been quite a journey.

I get that.

Well, there might be parts of you that do, but... I hate behaviors. Okay.

But what I'm hearing, what we heard from this part, it's afraid if it doesn't do this... A part that judges the other probably in a not so nice way would be released. Does that sound right? Yeah. So there is that part in there. It's just that you've been able to kind of exile it.

Okay.

Right.

Let's pause for a second. I'll give you a little overview of where we are. So we started with this guy who came up with your friend and is trying to protect that relationship because if – you continue to be misunderstood in terms of your motives, it would have an impact. Does that sound right?

Got it. Yeah. And in exploring this part, asking what it's afraid would happen if it didn't do that. Mm-hmm. So there's this other part that might come out that would be very judgmental of that family member.

And really might have a bad influence on your relationship with that person. Does that sound right?

Okay. So we have these two – well, we have you who's noticing all this, which we should talk more about. And then we have these two parts that are sort of polarized, but one, the judgmental one, you really don't like. And so you really go to lengths to keep at bay and you're, you kind of admire this guy. Uh, and, and, but you also know that he can get in the way at times too.

Does all that sound right?

So let's go through that again. So first of all, I'm so grateful that you're willing to be this vulnerable and expose these parts. So this guy – actually, they're both probably what we call firefighters – and very reactive. There's maybe some other very vulnerable part that is involved here we haven't heard about.

But if we continued to work together, I would work to get permission to go to the judgmental guy too. And what you would find is he's a protector too. He's not just a bunch of negative thoughts about people. As I was hearing earlier, you've spent a lot of time in your life trying to be fair to people and to not judge them and to see them.

What they do is just their behaviors and not who they are, which is great. But in the process of doing that sometimes, we wind up having to push away the parts that we want to judge and want to hate and so on. What I find is if we can go there and get to know them, they're just protectors too, and they're young, and when they are able to unload the hate they might carry, the judgment,

Yeah, so one basic assumption is that the mind isn't unitary, that actually we're all multiple personalities, not in the diagnostic sense. But we all have these what I call parts, other systems call subpersonalities, ego states, things like that, and that it's the natural state of the mind to be that way, that

They'll transform. So this is a model of transformation in that sense. And there are no bad parts. You go to everybody in there, regardless of how you think how bad they are, and you get curious about them, and you learn how they're trying to protect. And then we help them out of their protective roles and help them trust There's a you who you talked about with Martha who can run things.

They don't have to do it because most of them are young. And get them to trust this you to handle your family member rather than they have to take over or try to take over in the way they did. Does this make any sense?

That's what I'm talking about.

We're born with them because they're all very valuable and have qualities and resources to help us survive and thrive. But trauma and what's called attachment injuries and the slings and arrows we suffer force these little naturally valuable parts into roles that can be destructive.

So let me check in and just see how this has been to discuss and focus and so on. What's it been like to do this process?

What I was saying earlier is if we were to pursue it, we could get to the point where the teddy bear guy could unload the feelings he carries that makes it so uncomfortable, and he would transform.

So you would... focus on him again. We would explore more of what he's protecting. Either we would go to the guy he's trying to keep at bay that would ruin a relationship, or often these parts are protecting something much more vulnerable from your past. Some young part that's stuck somewhere in the past that has a big issue about being misunderstood in terms of motives or something.

Got it.

So that would be the part that we would go to that it protects, that has this fantasy of what a relationship should be or could be, who might be stuck somewhere in the past. And we would witness, you know, you talked with Martha about compassionate witness. We would witness where he's stuck and what was happening back then. And then I would have you go in and get him out of that time period.

Then we'd have him unload the desire for that fantasy that keeps you getting hurt. And then I would have the teddy bear see it doesn't have to protect him anymore. And then we would help the teddy bear unload the feelings he carries. And then he could relax. And they would all start to trust you, which we should talk about a little bit now. Who is you who's separate from these others?

I had a teddy bear.

But let me just elaborate on what I was just saying because when you separated from him and you found him here – And I asked you how you felt toward him, and you had an attitude about him at first, remember? And we got that to relax and got curious about him. Then you started to access more of what I call yourself with a capital S. So it comes through curiosity. Well, often starts with curiosity.

Just to backtrack a little bit, so when I would have these clients in the early days starting to work with these parts, like the critic and so on, and once I got hip to the fact they weren't what they seemed, that they deserved to be listened to rather than fought with, so I would help the parts that hated them step out, and clients could do that pretty readily.

Often they don't like it all, but because they're frozen often in time and during the trauma, and they live as if it's still happening, they're in these protective roles that can be quite extreme and interfere in your life. And yeah, so I just stumbled onto the phenomena 40, now I think it's 41 years ago. Mm-hmm. And it's been, you know, amazing ride.

And then I would say, now how do you feel toward this critic? And spontaneously, people would say, I'm just curious about why it calls me names all day. Or even would say, I feel sorry for it that it has to do this. I want to help it. And when they were in that state, and I would ask, what part of you is that? That's great. Let's keep that around. They'd say, that's not a part like these others.

That's me. That's my essence, or that's my self. So I came to call that the self with a capital S. 40 years later, thousands of people doing this all over the world. Turns out that that self is in everybody just beneath the surface of these parts so that when they open space, you can access it quickly. It has all these great qualities, what I call the eight Cs.

So curious, but also calm, confident, compassionate. courageous, clear, creative, and connected. And that person knows how to heal these parts. So once I get somebody in a lot of what we call self, I'll just say, okay, what do you wanna say to this part? And how does it react? And now what do you wanna do with the part? I can kind of get out of the way.

And one of the hallmarks of IFS as opposed to a lot of other therapies is that it's not so much about me becoming that, you know, good attachment figure to these hurting parts of you, these inner children. You become that. You become the good attachment figure yourself or the good inner parent or the good internal leader for these parts. And they come to trust you as a leader.

And then you get into it with your family member. And you just remind the partner, I can handle this. Just let me stay. And now when that happens with my wife, sometimes, not on a good day, I can stay in the C-word qualities and have a totally different conversation with her than if that protector took over.

I actually have a PhD in marital and family therapy, so I was part of the movement in family therapy away from intra-psychic work. There was a polarization, and we thought we could reorganize families and heal all these symptoms just by doing that. We didn't have to muck around in the inner world.

Yeah, yeah. So for a long time, I resisted trying to take this directly to the public because... I learned the hard way that some systems, particularly people with huge amounts of trauma, are quite delicate.

And if you start going to these, you know, the part we talked about that's vulnerable inside, that has this view of relationships, this kind of idealized view of relationships of yours, would be what I call an exile, that if we were to go to it, And we won't today because it requires a lot of vulnerability.

I went to prove that, and this was about 1983, by getting a group of bulimic kids together and their families. tried to reorganize the family, just the way the book said to, and failed. The kids didn't realize they'd been cured, and they kept binging and purging. So out of frustration, I began asking why, and they started talking this language of parts.

But if we were to, a lot of extreme protectors might come out and then people start to get scared. So it took a long time to figure out how we might bring it to the public in a safer way. And so we just put out a workbook for people.

And it doesn't involve necessarily going to those places, but there's a huge amount you can do just by working the way we started to with these protectors and getting to know them and know that they're not you. They're just a part trying their best. And no, it's not anything negative.

That judgmental part you've got such an attitude about or fear of, if you were just to begin getting curious about it and getting to know it a bit, you'd find out that it's a very valuable part that has a lot of discernment, like you said, and wants desperately to keep you from getting in these relationships where you get hurt and get so judgmental because you don't listen to it.

Do you follow what I'm saying?

And they would say some version of, when something bad happens in my life, it triggers this critic who's calling me all kinds of names inside, and that goes right to the heart of a part that feels empty and alone and worthless. And that's so distressing to feel that the binge part comes in and takes me out, takes me away from all that pain. But the critic comes in and attacks me for the binge.

And what I'm hearing is that when you're looking at a person or a political party or issue in the world, you'll hear from these conflicted parts. They each have – perspective, just like our country now hears from these conflicted parts. But you don't have a lot of access to what I'm calling self in those contexts. Because one of the C words is clarity.

So again, as I was listening to you and Martha, you were talking about how there are times where you just have this sense in your body of what's right or what's true. That's what I'm calling self. Self has that clarity. And self sees injustice and self, some of those C words are courage, confidence, and clarity. So there's an impulse also to act to correct imbalance, to correct injustice too.

So self isn't a kind of passive witness as it is in a lot of spiritual traditions in IFS. It's an active inner leader. It's an active external leader. And Too often, our actions are driven by these protective parts, and that's true in our politics now too. So one of my goals is to try to bring more self-leadership to the world, to all these conflicts. But to do that, people have to unburden.

They have to release these extreme beliefs and emotions they got from their traumas in the past. We have a concept we call legacy burdens. So many people have inherited these extreme beliefs and emotions that came down through their ancestors and drive their parts, drive their extremes. And many conflicts in the world are driven by these legacy burdens.

And we've gotten good at helping people unload these things. Yeah, we've seen this in the Middle East recently. Totally. And we're doing a lot of work in the Middle East. So we have training programs there. And one of my visions is to have large-scale legacy unburdenings where large groups of people come together and we help them unload the Holocaust legacy burdens on the one side and the

1941 legacy burdens on the Palestinian side and have more self accessible to each side. And when, like when we do couples therapy, we do other kinds of negotiated conflict. If people's parts start getting into it, we'll just say time out. You sort of did this on your own with your family member. Just say time out. I want both of you to go inside. Find the parts that have been doing the speaking.

Don't come back until you can speak for them but not from them. And come back in these C-word qualities, in that state of self. If we can hold people in that, it's really easy to get out of the conflict. If their protectors are going at it all the time, conflicts never change.

And then the criticism goes right to the heart of that worthless part. So to me as a family therapist, this sounded like what I'd been studying in external families. these circular sequences of interaction. And so I just got curious and just started to explore.

Yeah, that happened several times when we were working together. Like I would have you stay with something and then the narrator part would kick in. Yeah. And then I would try to refocus you. But, you know, I lived in Boston for 10 years. So I worked with lots of cognitive people who didn't know their bodies, who had, you know, just were in that rat race to try and get tenure and so on.

Yes, me too. Yeah.

But just to answer your question, they can do it, but we first have to start with that thinking part and get it on board and get it to step out and to stay out long enough that they can feel their bodies. So, yeah, you know, it lends itself to anybody, but with people like that, it takes a while for that thinking part to trust. that it's safe to let them into their bodies.

Because if they find it in their body and they direct the question there and they wait for the answer to come from there, they're less likely to be in their head. So it sort of short circuits that thinking part. And so many people come to therapy and that thinking part thinks it's supposed to do the therapy. It's, you know, CBT or whatever.

Even a lot of the more, not experiential, but a lot of the more psychodynamic therapies, the thinking part is really trying to explain why they feel stuff.

So this is getting them out of that and getting them to actually listen inside into what they think is their body, but it's really these parts that live down there that They haven't had access to because the thinking part is running things so much.

Yeah, it's not even you're trying to reveal. It's just that you're asking these questions and the answers start coming.

Yeah, in fact – Two days ago, we just completed an IFS and ketamine retreat. Oh, wow. And we're doing it more and more. Like I said, I'm trying to bring this more out of the psychotherapy world. So we invited 32 leaders to come of various kinds and had three days where they do ketamine and then do IFS.

The nice thing about psychedelics is it puts those manager parts to sleep somehow a lot of the time.

That's why... These academy and clinics where they just hand them the drugs and the medicine and just leave them on their own are scary to me. I'm proud to say that IFS has been adopted as one of the primary models for psychedelics now.

Because it's a really nice fit. And as I was saying earlier, what I see happening often, not always, is these manager parts go offline. And that releases a lot of self. So you start to just feel those C-word qualities emerging. And that's a big invitation to all these exiled parts to come and get attention. And so as people come out of the ketamine experience,

I can work with them for 15 minutes and do something that would take maybe five sessions because they can get access to parts that they couldn't get or it would take a long time to convince their protectors to let us go to. And we can unburden those exiles and then bring back their protectors. And so I love it. And ketamine is the legal one, so that's why we do it.

And the other nice thing, and I don't know as a scientist how much you would go with this, Ketamine, again, because it opens the door with these protectors, you can also taste what I call the big self. You taste this, what they call, non-dual state that can be quite blissful. And some people go, God. And

Some of both. So most people are aware they're a critic, but other times you're not aware of these parts we call exiles that you've locked away because you didn't want to feel their feelings. They're stuck in these bad trauma scenes. And to survive in your life, you had to push them away.

Then as you come back, you have this sense of I'm much more than this little body and this little ego, that there is something much bigger. And that's why they're using it with End of Life and why it and psilocybin has such a big impact on depression because it sort of lifts you out of this little box your protectors have you in to know that there's something much more. Yeah.

And so with those parts, a lot of people aren't really consciously aware of them until these protector parts give space and open the door to the exiles.

Like when you go to sleep, your managers go to sleep, and then you have these weird dreams, and that's because your exiles have access to your mind now. And they're trying to give you signals about what they want. The other thing I'll say about psychedelics and the breathing too is

is that as your managers go to sleep and your exiles start coming in, it can seem really terrifying because these parts are stuck in horrible places often with a lot of terror. And so what's called bad trips is them trying to get attention. So they'll come in and they'll totally take over and you'll look like you're having a panic attack.

But what we've learned, and this happened a few times last week, is instead of thinking of it as a panic attack or a bad trip, to welcome it. Here's a part that needs a lot of attention. It's taken over entirely. But if I were to say, okay, Andrew, I see you're really scared, but how do you feel toward this really scared part that's here now? And I could get you to say, I feel sorry for it.

Then I would have you start to get to know it and work with it and comfort it rather than have a panic attack. You would access calm and those C words, and then it becomes a hugely useful healing of something that's in you that's stuck in a terrified place.

Because- Let me wrap up on that for a second.

Just as an example, like I've done workshops where I have people work with their racism. You're speaking of something very shameful. And a lot of people say, I'm not a racist. I don't have any racism. But if I really convince them to look inside and check...

they'll find there's a little part in there that does spout racist things when they meet somebody of a different skin color, has these white supremacy beliefs, and they're really ashamed of it.

So if I were to have you focus on that racist voice in there, you would have to get a lot of the parts that are ashamed of it to step out, and then I would have you get curious about it rather than ashamed of it, and ask it about where it picked up these beliefs. And it could tell you, And then I would ask, do you like having to carry this racist stuff? Usually they'll say no.

If it's ready to unload it, we can just unload it. So one of the key things to know is these parts are not the burdens they carry. They're all good. The little guy who's got the racist rant is a part that got stuck with his beliefs. But when he releases those beliefs, he transforms into being a good.

And the mistake our culture makes, the mistake that most psychotherapies make, is to assume that he is that racist rant and to try to exile him. But it's a different way of understanding even very seemingly evil people, that they're dominated by these protectors. and they're so afraid of their exiles. And they relate inside in the same way they relate outside.

So if they hate parts of themselves, they'll hate people who resemble those parts of them. They'll try to dominate those people. Do you follow what I'm saying?

And for me, that isn't always true, but that's sometimes true.

Which we already established.

Not always.

But a lot of the time. So if you can come to have compassion for that judgmental part of you and not be embattled with it and actually see it as desperately trying to help you be more discerning and help it unburden and get out of this role that it's in. Because in the role that it's in, it can be destructive.

We're not trying to minimize that or say, you know, when I say all parts are, there are no bad parts, there are no bad parts, but they can get into very destructive roles. And they can carry these burdens from the past that can drive them to be harmful. But part of my work is to help all that change. And so if you were to start a new relationship with that judgmental part of you,

then you would see past the judgmental parts of other people, and you could see the exiles that drive those protectors, and you would have compassion for them. It wouldn't mean you wouldn't stop them or stand up to them, but you would do it with compassion rather than from these hateful protectors.

That's right.

The opposite is actually true because these protectors will generate often what they fear. So by being so protective, they'll create protectors in the other that will attack, whereas if they could stay in self, self can be very protective with those C-word qualities, very forceful, sometimes pierce.

Okay, so I did a book called You're the One You've Been Waiting For. And in it, I talked about this whole issue. And so for a lot of people, you get hurt by your parent. And there are parts that want to protect you from your parent. But there are other parts who took on the worthlessness from being rejected by your parent and are desperate for redemption. Do you follow this?

And so as you leave and you're looking for a partner, that part from a subconscious place can influence your decision to find somebody who resembles that parent in their effort to be redeemed again.

That's a version of what I'm talking about. And so you find somebody who does resemble that person, that parent. And unfortunately, they do resemble that parent. And so they'll hurt you in the same way. And then your protectors go into one of four modes. They'll say, I've got to change that person back into who they're supposed to be. So they'll try to change the person's behavior.

Or they'll say, I've got to change myself so they'll be who they're supposed to be. Or they'll say, oh, this wasn't the Redeemer after all, and they'll go looking for the real Redeemer who's still out there.

And, yeah, that's what I try to do is to help them see that that Redeemer is inside of them itself. And if we can go to that exile who's got this thing for this parent-like person and help it connect to self and help it unburdened, that whole repetition compulsion disappears because now they can take care of themselves. They trust self to do it.

They don't need that from some other person like that. And so when we're working with couples, and you always find some version of that in couples, if we can get each of them to become their own good attachment figure, good caretaker inside,

That frees up the partner because when this exile is leading the relationship, your partner feels a lot of sort of demands or feels a lot like your partner has to take care of that young part of you and can't, can't fully do it. So there's always this sense of a burden. You know what I'm saying?

25%, 30%? I really can't say because my sample is very skewed. I'm working with psychotherapy patients who always have a lot of trauma. So I really can't say. I mean, I'm very biased.

Yeah, I mean, like I was saying, there's a lot you can do with working with your protectors and helping them get to know self. Like, we didn't do it, but had you asked that titanium teddy bear how old it thought you were and just really waited for the answer... Most people will get a single digit. It still thinks you're very young.

And it still thinks it has to protect you the way it did when you were very young. And just even updating it. creates a huge amount of relief with these protectors. So there's a lot that can be done just by working with protectors, introducing them to self, helping them see they don't have to keep doing this all the time.

Some protectors, it's very hard for them to totally drop their weapons until what they protect has been healed. So that's where the therapist comes in. So, you know, there are coaches doing this work, for example. They'll work with some executive and they'll do great and then they'll get to an exile. And then they'll have the person see an IFS therapist for a couple sessions to heal the exile.

and then come back because, um, you know, coaches aren't trained as therapists and right. So yeah, there's still need for therapists, but, um, yeah, but you can do a lot on your own.

Yeah, exactly. And that's why I'm so grateful to you that you were willing to try it and, Because it's true, as I describe it to people, they don't really get it until they actually feel it, experience it. And it is very different from many other therapies, which are much more cognitively based, because we're trying to bypass that and actually get to this raw stuff in here.

Yeah, and let me lead by saying, please don't do this if you have fear about doing it. But if you're interested in some inner exploration, then I'll lead you through some of the steps. As you've been listening to our conversation, I'm speaking to the listeners, you may be thinking about some of your own parts, particularly your own protectors.

And if you can't think of any, most people have a kind of critic inside or part that makes them work too hard or a part that takes care of too many people. So I'm going to invite you to pick a protective part to try to get to know for a few minutes. And just notice that inner voice or that emotion, that thought pattern, that sensation. Just focus on it exclusively for a second. And as you do that,

Notice where it seems to be located in your body or around your body. And just take a second with that. And some people don't find a location. Some people, they still sense it, but it's not clear where it seems to be located. But if you do find it in or around your body, just focus on it there. And as you focus on it, notice how you feel toward it.

And by that I mean, do you dislike it and want to get rid of it? Are you afraid of it? Do you resent how it dominates? Do you depend on it? So you have a relationship with this part of you. And if you feel anything except a kind of openness or curiosity or willingness to get to know it, then that's coming from other parts that have been trying to deal with it.

We're just going to ask those other parts of you to relax back for just a few minutes so you can get to know it. We're not going to have it take over more. We're just going to get to know it better. So see if they're willing to let you open your mind to it. And if they're not, then we're not going to pursue this.

And you can just get to know their fear about letting you get to know this target part. But if you do get to that point of just being curious about it without an agenda, then ask it what it wants you to know about itself. It's that kind of nice open-ended question. And don't think of the answer. Just wait and see what comes from that place in your body. And don't judge what comes.

Just whatever comes, we'll go with it. What does it want you to know about itself? And what's it afraid would happen if it didn't do this inside of you? And if you got an answer to that question about the fear, then it was telling you something about how it's been trying to protect you.

And if that's true, then extend some appreciation to it for at least trying to keep you safe, even if it backfires or it doesn't work. Let it know you appreciate that it's trying to protect you. And see how it reacts to your appreciation. And then ask if you could go to what it protects and heal or change that so it didn't need to protect you so much.

What might it like to do instead inside of you if it was released from this role? And I'll repeat that. If you could go to what it protects and heal or change that so it was liberated from this protective role, what might it like to do instead inside of you? And then ask it this kind of odd question. How old does this part think you are? Not how old is it, but how old does it think you are?

And again, don't think. Just wait and see what comes. And if it got your age wrong, then go ahead and update it and see how it reacts. And the last question for this part is, what does it need from you going forward? What does it need from you? And again, just wait for the answer. And when the time feels right, thank your parts for whatever they let you do in this.

And then begin to shift your focus back outside and maybe take some deep breaths as you do that.

Yeah, so it's great to do the work session or this exercise, but ideally it's the beginning of a new relationship with this part. And that takes work on your own. So what I advise people is as you get that ball rolling in that good direction, it'll reverse if you don't stay with it for a while.

So every day, like you were saying, you wake up, rather than what am I going to do today or what problems do I have in my life, how's that part of me doing that I've been starting to work with? What does it need from me today? What does it want me to know? Is it still feeling better? Do I still have compassion for it or appreciation for it?

So this, like I said earlier, this kind of becomes a life practice. So I do that every morning. Every morning?

Exactly right. So yeah, I'll check in. not with all my parts because I've met many, many, but the ones I've been working with just to see how they're doing. And as I go through the day, I'll notice, am I in those C word qualities? Is my heart open? Is my mind curious? Do I have a big agenda? Anything, any departures from that is a protector usually.

And I'll just have a little internal board meeting and say, I get, you feel like, Like in preparing to come and be on this podcast, I had to work with the parts that were nervous. My father was a big scientist, a big endocrinology researcher.

Great field. My brother is a big shot endocrinology researcher. So I have some... some issues, put it that way.

Well, that was my part's worries coming in. And so I worked on it and said, okay, but just I get it. I get you're scared. I could feel them in my hands when I was taking a drink earlier. Interesting. But I just kept, okay, I get that. I get you're scared, but just trust me. Just step back. Just relax. And then I feel this shift, a literal shift.

And then I feel those C words flooding. And then we have a much different kind of conversation. So it's a life practice in that sense.

Yes. So, yeah, the big distinction is between parts that by dint of simply being hurt or terrified or made to feel shamed and worthless. And usually those are our most sensitive parts. They're the young inner children. They get stuck with those burdens of worthlessness, terror, and emotional pain. And then we don't want anything to do with them because they can overwhelm us.

Yeah, the why question I can't totally answer, but it definitely is. And for me, traumas aren't necessarily traumatizing. So something bad happens to you, and if you can access what you and Martha Beck were calling the self, capital S, and you go to the part of you that got hurt by what happened,

And so we lock them away. And everybody tells us to do that. So those are the exiles. And when you have a lot of exiles, these other parts are forced to become protectors. So there are two classes of protectors. One are the managers we've been talking about. and the other are the firefighters. So, you know, we mentioned a number of manager common roles, but there's just lots and lots of them.

Firefighter common roles include, you know, addictions, excuse me, dissociating, the kind of judgmental, rageful parts, I could go on, but anything that is reactive, impulsive, and is designed to protect those vulnerable parts, but in an impulsive way, as opposed to the managers who are all about control and pleasing, these firefighters are all about

If I don't get you away from these feelings right now, you're gonna die. A lot of them believe that. And some of them, it's true. So there's often a kind of hierarchy of firefighter activities. If the first one doesn't work, you go to the next one. If that doesn't work, the top of the hierarchy for most people is suicide. If things get painful enough, There's this exit strategy.

It's actually very comforting to lots of people. And here we come along and get really scared of these suicidal parts. So this is, again, it's one of the hallmarks of the difference with IFS. If you were to say you've got a suicidal part, say, let's go get to know it. I would have you find it and, you know, all the steps. What are you afraid would happen if you didn't kill Andrew?

What do you think the answer to that is most of the time?

Yeah.

Exactly.

These parts believe it.

So my response to that part is if we could unload the pain that you're so afraid would overwhelm, would you have to kill him?

And would you let us do that?

Okay. So because we can prove to you that we can unload that pain. And if we could do that, what would you like to do instead of being the suicidal part?

That's okay.

instead of pushing it away and locking it up, and you embrace it and you bring it closer to you, which means going to your suffering, which is counter to what most of us try to do. But if you were to do that and you could help it unload the feelings it got from the trauma, then you're not traumatized. What's traumatizing is something bad happens

It's a really nice analogy.

So that... Suicidal part often transforms into part that wants to help you live, actually. They're often in the role that's opposite of who they really are. So as you can hear, this is a totally different approach to suicide, for example. And we do the same with addictive firefighters. Find that part that makes you so high. How do you feel toward it? I hate it. I want to be in recovery.

I want to lock it up. Let's get all that to step out and just get curious about it and ask it what it's afraid would happen if it didn't get you high all the time. Same answer. If we could heal all that pain or that shame, would you have to get them high all the time? No, but I don't think you can do that. Would you give us a chance to prove we can?

Totally different approach to all these problems.

What are you afraid would happen if you didn't do this to them?

These more vulnerable parts of us, the most sensitive parts of us, get hurt or feel worthless because of what happened or get terrified. And then we lock them away because we don't want to feel that feeling anymore. And everybody around us tells us to just let it go, just move on, don't look back. And so we wind up exiling our most sensitive parts simply because they got hurt.

Well, you remember what I was saying earlier when we talked to these addict parts. What are you afraid would happen if you didn't make them high? He would die. So that's a really common answer. And basically what you just described is you were doing IFS without knowing it. Asking those questions, what are you really afraid of? What are you really afraid of? Did you get to the key answer?

And then I don't know how you helped that part that feared death, but somehow you helped it relax more.

You know?

Yeah, so all these little machines we have and all the ways we have of never spending any time by ourselves or alone or thinking just feed these protective parts, these distractors, and leave in the dust more and more these exiled parts.

And then when you have a lot of exiles, you feel more delicate. The world seems more dangerous because anything could trigger that. And when they get triggered, they'll blow up. They'll take over. So it's like these flames of raw emotion come popping out. So other parts are forced into these manager roles or these protective roles.

So a lot of people's fear of not having something to do is because when they don't, or if they're not working in your case, then these exiled parts start to come forward. They're not being distracted from. In my case, I mentioned my father, I'm the oldest of six boys. Oh, wow.

I was supposed to be a physician like him and a researcher, and I was spared that fate because I had undiagnosed ADD and wasn't a good student. And three of my brothers were physician research types. But I was the oldest, so he was really hard on me in terms of lazy and worthless and so on. So I came out of my family with a lot of worthlessness.

And actually the model wouldn't exist if I didn't have that because I had this part that had to prove him wrong and drive me, not to the extent you're talking about or sleeping in the office or anything, but it would drive me to find this model and then take it in the face of a lot of attack to where it is now.

And if I wasn't working on it, if I wasn't getting the accolades, then that worthlessness would crop up. And then I'd have other firefighters to try and deal with that. And, you know, I had not only the workaholic part, but I had a part that could close my heart and make me not care what people think because I was attacked by traditional psychiatry and so on.

Yeah. I was humiliated at Grand Rounds a couple times. I was in the Department of Psychiatry.

That's a good question. So point being that I was dominated as I developed this by these protectors, and it got me through all that, but it didn't serve me as a leader of a community. And I was lucky to have some students who would confront my parts and would just say, you can't keep going on like this if you're going to be any use to us.

And I listened, and I went and worked with that worthlessness. And now I don't have it. I don't have to work. I don't, you know, it's just I feel free because I'm not so afraid of that bubbling up if I'm not distracted. And now we have more distractions than ever, as we're saying,

Yeah, there are some good psychiatrists.

That's interesting.

And some of them are trying to manage your life so that you don't get triggered anymore, so that For example, nobody gets close enough to you to trigger any of that or so you look really good so you don't get rejected or perform at a really high level to counter the worthlessness.

I agree with you entirely. And I'm, you know, I tried to stay in psychiatry and just kept hitting the brick wall, and so I went grassroots for 30 years, and now it's starting to come around into psychiatry, so it feels good that way.

That's true. And I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for that Department of Psychiatry to invite me back.

Many of those become the critics because in their effort to try to get you to look good, they're yelling at you to try and behave and do what they want so you look better. And then there are other what we call manager protectors that are – for some people, particularly women, have these massive caretaking parts that don't let them take care of themselves and take care of everybody else.

Yeah, well, that's what I've been working on the last several years. And what I can say is, for example, I spent 20 years, like, you know, I worked with bulimia, like I said, and I thought, okay, this really works with that population.

Yeah.

And then... I thought, okay, well, let's see if no bad parts is really true. And so I went to the toughest populations I could find. And so for 20 years, I worked with DID and I worked with— DID, sorry. Dissociative identity disorder, like multiple personality disorder. Mm-hmm. And I worked with what's called borderline personality clients.

It's because people fight with the symptoms. They try to get rid of the symptoms instead of listening to the part that's making them binge about what that's about.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, you know, there's in the activist world, there's always been a kind of you're wasting your time, but There's been a polarization between being in the activist mindset of really trying to change things in the outside world versus sitting around and just focusing inside and not being an activist. But I'm working with a lot of the people you would recognize in terms of activists.

And when they came to me, they were doing their activism from the sort of righteous, judgmental part. And if we can get that one to step back and have them do their activism from self, they have a totally different impact. People are willing to listen to them, whereas when they're in that righteous place, nobody wants to listen to the shaming that does. It needs to be both.

People need to do their work access self, and then start to try to change the outside world. Or not one before the other, but at least simultaneously.

So I could go on and on. There's a lot of common – manager roles. And I want to make clear as I'm talking about this, that these are not the essence of the parts. And that's a big mistake that most of the field has made is to assume the critic is just a internalized critical parent voice instead of listening to it and hearing that it's desperately trying to protect you.

I really appreciate you giving me the opportunity.

Me too. Oh, my God. My little nervous parts were giving me a lot of trouble. But once we got going, I just felt connected and I felt your appreciation and interest. And so we could have this kind of self-to-self exchange, which I love. I just love spending time in that energy. Yeah, likewise. And, you know, you're a great interviewer too.

Yeah. Yeah, it's clear.

So none of these are what they seem. That's the role they've been forced into. And the analogy, again, is to an external family. Like kids in dysfunctional families are forced into these extreme roles that aren't who they are. It's the role they got forced into by the dynamics of the family. So the same is true with this internal family. So most of us have a lot of what we call managers.

They got us here. They help us in our careers. And other systems would call them the defenses or the ego. And, you know, in spirituality they get vilified too. But their whole M.O. is keep everything under control, please everybody, and you'll survive. The world has a way of breaking through those defenses, triggering an exile. When that happens, it's a big emergency.

Because again, these flames of raw emotion are going to overwhelm you and make you have trouble functioning or even getting out of bed. So there are other parts that immediately go into action to deal with that emergency. And in contrast to these managers, They're impulsive, reactive, damn the torpedoes. I don't care about the collateral damage to your body, to your relationships.

I just got to get you higher than those flames or douse them with some substance or distract you till they burn themselves out. So we call those firefighters. And again, these are just the roles. When released from these roles, they'll transform into being something very valuable.

Jung had all this a long time ago.