Dr. Tracy Vaillancourt

a little bit lower on anxiety so they're able to treat people poorly and not worry about it too much. And then it just snowballs, right? Because then that accrues power, then that power then corrupts them, and then they want to usurp even more power by being a total asshole.

a little bit lower on anxiety so they're able to treat people poorly and not worry about it too much. And then it just snowballs, right? Because then that accrues power, then that power then corrupts them, and then they want to usurp even more power by being a total asshole.

Sorry, I need to qualify. They're not total assholes. They're assholes to some people and good to others. Because if you're a complete jerk, you then alienate yourself and your power base also then gets corrupted and corrupted in a different way. Like meaning like you just can't hold on to your your power holding position.

Sorry, I need to qualify. They're not total assholes. They're assholes to some people and good to others. Because if you're a complete jerk, you then alienate yourself and your power base also then gets corrupted and corrupted in a different way. Like meaning like you just can't hold on to your your power holding position.

Yeah, you need a base to help you out.

Yeah, you need a base to help you out.

So bullies represent, so victims are about 30% of the population are victimized and 10% are bullied ruthlessly every single day. We're talking millions of kids as we speak were bullied today. around the world, hundreds of millions. So 30% of the population's bullied, 10% are ruthlessly bullied. And then in terms of those who bully others, it's a bit lower. It's probably around 8% bully others.

So bullies represent, so victims are about 30% of the population are victimized and 10% are bullied ruthlessly every single day. We're talking millions of kids as we speak were bullied today. around the world, hundreds of millions. So 30% of the population's bullied, 10% are ruthlessly bullied. And then in terms of those who bully others, it's a bit lower. It's probably around 8% bully others.

But, you know, most of it is relying on self-reports and most kids don't admit to doing this to others. If we use peer nominations, then you're getting closer to let's say 20 to 30 again, it would map on. But it really depends on the methodology.

But, you know, most of it is relying on self-reports and most kids don't admit to doing this to others. If we use peer nominations, then you're getting closer to let's say 20 to 30 again, it would map on. But it really depends on the methodology.

well-conducted study in this area that was beyond just descriptives, although it is still descriptive to some extent. And then some people then focused on the broader context that it happens in. So not just at the individual level, but what do school-related factors look like? Kids are nested within schools, they're nested within their families. How do those interrelate?

well-conducted study in this area that was beyond just descriptives, although it is still descriptive to some extent. And then some people then focused on the broader context that it happens in. So not just at the individual level, but what do school-related factors look like? Kids are nested within schools, they're nested within their families. How do those interrelate?

So again, if we just focus on high status, high powered bullies, I guess the cost would be one that's borne by society and those in their lives more than at the individual level. And that kind of hurts to tell you that because I would want there to be a cost that dissuades them from acting this way.

So again, if we just focus on high status, high powered bullies, I guess the cost would be one that's borne by society and those in their lives more than at the individual level. And that kind of hurts to tell you that because I would want there to be a cost that dissuades them from acting this way.

But the truth of the matter is that they're a menace to those in their lives, not necessarily to themselves. And so I think one of the costs to themselves would be maybe in the end, they have more difficult relationships because it maintains their narcissism or it... influences their narcissistic traits. So it makes them more pronounced. They become more entitled.

But the truth of the matter is that they're a menace to those in their lives, not necessarily to themselves. And so I think one of the costs to themselves would be maybe in the end, they have more difficult relationships because it maintains their narcissism or it... influences their narcissistic traits. So it makes them more pronounced. They become more entitled.

And then that is challenging to be around.

And then that is challenging to be around.

So, I mean, that was like a really big focus back in the day. Like, could we identify kids who get bullied so that we could protect them? And obviously those who are not able to defend themselves are going to have a harder time. you know, think about this, like if, and we're talking again about the Nelson, and I know I keep making this distinction, but that's, they're really different animals.

So, I mean, that was like a really big focus back in the day. Like, could we identify kids who get bullied so that we could protect them? And obviously those who are not able to defend themselves are going to have a harder time. you know, think about this, like if, and we're talking again about the Nelson, and I know I keep making this distinction, but that's, they're really different animals.

It really looks different. So those kids come into grade one, let's just say, and they, they just pick on everybody. And you know, I pick on Tracy and she goes and tells the teacher right away. And then I pick on Chris and he doesn't tell anybody. And so that gets me coming back. Right. So one of the things that you see is that those that are willing to intervene on their behalf.

It really looks different. So those kids come into grade one, let's just say, and they, they just pick on everybody. And you know, I pick on Tracy and she goes and tells the teacher right away. And then I pick on Chris and he doesn't tell anybody. And so that gets me coming back. Right. So one of the things that you see is that those that are willing to intervene on their behalf.

So meaning like saying, no, I'm not going to allow this to happen or tell somebody immediately, they tend to not get victimized again. Um, Now, that's not always the case. But, you know, as a general rule, saying no and sticking up for yourself is a good way to go. But not everybody has the capacity to do that. So I'm not asking people to do it because I recognize that's inherently unfair.

So meaning like saying, no, I'm not going to allow this to happen or tell somebody immediately, they tend to not get victimized again. Um, Now, that's not always the case. But, you know, as a general rule, saying no and sticking up for yourself is a good way to go. But not everybody has the capacity to do that. So I'm not asking people to do it because I recognize that's inherently unfair.

Kids who are shy and socially withdrawn tend to get picked on a little bit more. Kids who are girls who have ADHD, who are just a little bit atypical, neurodivergent kids get picked on a little bit more. Kids who don't have the cool stuff that everybody has can be picked on more. So if you're in a middle-class school and you're not wealthy, you're not in that economic bracket, you could be

Kids who are shy and socially withdrawn tend to get picked on a little bit more. Kids who are girls who have ADHD, who are just a little bit atypical, neurodivergent kids get picked on a little bit more. Kids who don't have the cool stuff that everybody has can be picked on more. So if you're in a middle-class school and you're not wealthy, you're not in that economic bracket, you could be

And then my focus was always on the neurobiology of bullying. I was really interested in documenting how it hurt people, not just at that level where it could be easily dismissed, where people just say, ah, you know, you just need to be more resilient, suck it up. Yeah, she's sad, but she'll get over it.

And then my focus was always on the neurobiology of bullying. I was really interested in documenting how it hurt people, not just at that level where it could be easily dismissed, where people just say, ah, you know, you just need to be more resilient, suck it up. Yeah, she's sad, but she'll get over it.

more at risk. Kids who have poor social skills can get picked on. But then there's also kids who challenge those who wield power who can get picked on. So if you're a very attractive girl, let's say, and you move to a new school, God help you. It's just not going to go well. Those girls are going to eat you alive and make sure that you don't usurp their power.

more at risk. Kids who have poor social skills can get picked on. But then there's also kids who challenge those who wield power who can get picked on. So if you're a very attractive girl, let's say, and you move to a new school, God help you. It's just not going to go well. Those girls are going to eat you alive and make sure that you don't usurp their power.

If you're a very athletic boy and you come into a new school, I think you'll be OK because boys tend to tolerate hierarchies more than girls. So, you know, it's a little complicated. I know you maybe want just like a list of here are the things of kids that like put that places kids at risk. But I just can't give it to you because it's far more complicated than that.

If you're a very athletic boy and you come into a new school, I think you'll be OK because boys tend to tolerate hierarchies more than girls. So, you know, it's a little complicated. I know you maybe want just like a list of here are the things of kids that like put that places kids at risk. But I just can't give it to you because it's far more complicated than that.

I think bullying exploits that fundamental need to belong for sure. And that comes back to, remember we talked about their social skills, like how do they know that and how they know that so early for sure. And then bullying also exploits, well, I mean, it thwarts people's fundamental need to belong, but it's not always exploiting it.

I think bullying exploits that fundamental need to belong for sure. And that comes back to, remember we talked about their social skills, like how do they know that and how they know that so early for sure. And then bullying also exploits, well, I mean, it thwarts people's fundamental need to belong, but it's not always exploiting it.

So some kids are just better at it, at better picking up what your sensitivities are. And then, then just, treating you poorly as a consequence right like they just know which buttons to press um I don't know if we know really what that ingredient is so if we're still building our meal like

So some kids are just better at it, at better picking up what your sensitivities are. And then, then just, treating you poorly as a consequence right like they just know which buttons to press um I don't know if we know really what that ingredient is so if we're still building our meal like

100%. And that's exactly what the research shows. So if I'm a bully, the kids that I bully and you're in my group, you're also bullying them. So they can't win, right? And then they become, in a sense, avoided. Not in a sense. They really do get avoided because nobody wants to be the next target. And I always think about like, it's like social singling, right?

100%. And that's exactly what the research shows. So if I'm a bully, the kids that I bully and you're in my group, you're also bullying them. So they can't win, right? And then they become, in a sense, avoided. Not in a sense. They really do get avoided because nobody wants to be the next target. And I always think about like, it's like social singling, right?

Like we talk a lot about virtue singling now and everybody pretending they're good and look at me. But there's another singling that's happening. And it's about like, hey, you mess with me, you're going to be the next target. And this is what it looks like. So the kid's head really is on a stake for everybody to see. And then...

Like we talk a lot about virtue singling now and everybody pretending they're good and look at me. But there's another singling that's happening. And it's about like, hey, you mess with me, you're going to be the next target. And this is what it looks like. So the kid's head really is on a stake for everybody to see. And then...

I wanted to show that, no, it affects them in a way that's profound and places them at risk for the rest of their lives. So that was kind of like my area of research. And since then, others have followed my There's not enough of us. I think that we need to be looking at the neurobiology a little bit more carefully. It's a profound psychosocial stressor.

I wanted to show that, no, it affects them in a way that's profound and places them at risk for the rest of their lives. So that was kind of like my area of research. And since then, others have followed my There's not enough of us. I think that we need to be looking at the neurobiology a little bit more carefully. It's a profound psychosocial stressor.

when we talk, we talked about this already, but this is what I mean why we can't, we shouldn't mix up aggression with bullying because you can imagine how isolating that is to the kid who's been victimized. How do they get out of that? And then They tend to learn that the way to get out of that is then to act like the jerk who's doing it to them.

when we talk, we talked about this already, but this is what I mean why we can't, we shouldn't mix up aggression with bullying because you can imagine how isolating that is to the kid who's been victimized. How do they get out of that? And then They tend to learn that the way to get out of that is then to act like the jerk who's doing it to them.

And now instead of having a prevalence rate of 30 percent bullying at your school, you have a prevalence rate in the 70s because nobody's fixed it.

And now instead of having a prevalence rate of 30 percent bullying at your school, you have a prevalence rate in the 70s because nobody's fixed it.

Why? I go to schools where, and we do research across hundreds and hundreds of schools in Ontario, and some have low bullying rates, like 15%, and others have 70% bullying rates. And it really is about that. Is anybody holding them to account? And if you don't hold them to account, they will corrupt your environment.

Why? I go to schools where, and we do research across hundreds and hundreds of schools in Ontario, and some have low bullying rates, like 15%, and others have 70% bullying rates. And it really is about that. Is anybody holding them to account? And if you don't hold them to account, they will corrupt your environment.

Exactly. So think of it like, and I know you know this literature, but if you think about dominance, the dominance literature really tells us that when somebody wields power, we pay attention to them. We emulate them. And they don't pay attention to us. They are impervious to our signals of distress. They're not that interested in us, but we're profoundly interested in them.

Exactly. So think of it like, and I know you know this literature, but if you think about dominance, the dominance literature really tells us that when somebody wields power, we pay attention to them. We emulate them. And they don't pay attention to us. They are impervious to our signals of distress. They're not that interested in us, but we're profoundly interested in them.

And they also represent a really important socializing component in their environment. So they're socializing everybody who's paying attention to them in a way that we don't want them to be acting, right? Like we don't want this to be the model of our citizenship at our school, right?

And they also represent a really important socializing component in their environment. So they're socializing everybody who's paying attention to them in a way that we don't want them to be acting, right? Like we don't want this to be the model of our citizenship at our school, right?

Exactly. Yeah.

Exactly. Yeah.

Yeah. So we did a really big meta-analysis and I was a little bit surprised because if you look at, like, you just are going to think that there's going to be ethnic differences, ethnic and racial differences, just expect it. And we didn't find that at all for perpetration and for bullying victimization? Not at all. I mean, there's a little bit. At the end of the day, it's about numeration.

Yeah. So we did a really big meta-analysis and I was a little bit surprised because if you look at, like, you just are going to think that there's going to be ethnic differences, ethnic and racial differences, just expect it. And we didn't find that at all for perpetration and for bullying victimization? Not at all. I mean, there's a little bit. At the end of the day, it's about numeration.

So if we are at a school where it's primarily South Asian and we're the only two white kids, then we're a little bit vulnerable. But if you're the only two South Asian kids at a white school, you're vulnerable. So it really doesn't have to do with one race or ethnicity, or it really has to do with who's wielding power in your particular school.

So if we are at a school where it's primarily South Asian and we're the only two white kids, then we're a little bit vulnerable. But if you're the only two South Asian kids at a white school, you're vulnerable. So it really doesn't have to do with one race or ethnicity, or it really has to do with who's wielding power in your particular school.

So that's kind of like the evolution of bullying research. And then there's another side group that looks at it from an evolutionary perspective. And I know you had Tony Volk on before, and I do that a little bit too with Tony and the like. So yeah, I think we're getting there.

So that's kind of like the evolution of bullying research. And then there's another side group that looks at it from an evolutionary perspective. And I know you had Tony Volk on before, and I do that a little bit too with Tony and the like. So yeah, I think we're getting there.

Yeah, I'm not too sure, but I do know that there's something going on there. I mean, we don't have the same history as the United States, right? We didn't have slavery and the like. Our immigrant profile looks different. But so in our studies, we don't see Black youth being bullied as much, but we do see Asian students and South Asian students being bullied more than Black students.

Yeah, I'm not too sure, but I do know that there's something going on there. I mean, we don't have the same history as the United States, right? We didn't have slavery and the like. Our immigrant profile looks different. But so in our studies, we don't see Black youth being bullied as much, but we do see Asian students and South Asian students being bullied more than Black students.

But we always see white students in our studies being bullied the most and bullying others the most, but they represent the majority in our country.

But we always see white students in our studies being bullied the most and bullying others the most, but they represent the majority in our country.

So, OK, so there has been a lot of research showing that kids who are overweight and obese are more likely to be bullied. And then we did the study that like blew my mind because it was not at all what I thought was going to be the case. So we follow kids prospectively for seven years. And what we found was that there was always an association between being bullied and being overweight.

So, OK, so there has been a lot of research showing that kids who are overweight and obese are more likely to be bullied. And then we did the study that like blew my mind because it was not at all what I thought was going to be the case. So we follow kids prospectively for seven years. And what we found was that there was always an association between being bullied and being overweight.

but that kids gained weight as a consequence of being treated poorly. And that's what was driving the association primarily. So it's not like they were big and then got bullied. They got bullied and then became bigger and then got bullied. And then it just kind of spiraled. So really unfair.

but that kids gained weight as a consequence of being treated poorly. And that's what was driving the association primarily. So it's not like they were big and then got bullied. They got bullied and then became bigger and then got bullied. And then it just kind of spiraled. So really unfair.

But it makes sense because they become depressed and depression is associated with either overeating or undereating. So you're going to go one way or the other. And so to me, it fits. Like when I stood back and looked at it, I was like, oh, yeah, this makes sense. But this study needs to be replicated. It's only one study. We are the first to show it.

But it makes sense because they become depressed and depression is associated with either overeating or undereating. So you're going to go one way or the other. And so to me, it fits. Like when I stood back and looked at it, I was like, oh, yeah, this makes sense. But this study needs to be replicated. It's only one study. We are the first to show it.

I'll be interesting to see if others show it as well.

I'll be interesting to see if others show it as well.

Yeah, I don't know how that would work. Now, there is a little bit. So can we talk about skinny kids a little bit? So skinny boys are vulnerable. And especially skinny boys who are adolescents are very vulnerable because that's not perceived as masculine, which kind of goes hand in hand with being vulnerable, which is unfortunate.

Yeah, I don't know how that would work. Now, there is a little bit. So can we talk about skinny kids a little bit? So skinny boys are vulnerable. And especially skinny boys who are adolescents are very vulnerable because that's not perceived as masculine, which kind of goes hand in hand with being vulnerable, which is unfortunate.

And then thin girls get bullied, but because of intersexual competition. So like, even though like you're going to see it on both like so thin children and thin adolescents are at risk, but the mechanism is different for boys and girls.

And then thin girls get bullied, but because of intersexual competition. So like, even though like you're going to see it on both like so thin children and thin adolescents are at risk, but the mechanism is different for boys and girls.

Exactly. Exactly. And then there was a study that just came out that showed this curve. And it was looking at how weight status maps onto mental health. So this was published in JAMA. It just came out like a few months ago. And you see both ends. So you see the really thin kids being overly represented on having poor mental health. And then the overweight kids also having poor mental health.

Exactly. Exactly. And then there was a study that just came out that showed this curve. And it was looking at how weight status maps onto mental health. So this was published in JAMA. It just came out like a few months ago. And you see both ends. So you see the really thin kids being overly represented on having poor mental health. And then the overweight kids also having poor mental health.

why interventions don't work. So when we look at the big meta-analyses, there was one that was just redone. So you'd think like when you redo the meta-analysis on bullying intervention efficacy, that we would have improvements over the course of a decade, and we don't. So we're still only seeing about, at best, a 20% reduction in bullying. And that

why interventions don't work. So when we look at the big meta-analyses, there was one that was just redone. So you'd think like when you redo the meta-analysis on bullying intervention efficacy, that we would have improvements over the course of a decade, and we don't. So we're still only seeing about, at best, a 20% reduction in bullying. And that

More on the overweight side than the underweight side. But it really, I think that that could be explained through peer processes.

More on the overweight side than the underweight side. But it really, I think that that could be explained through peer processes.

Um, boys are so obvious in their bullying. They're really like, they value dominance and submission. So they are going to put you in your place either physically or verbally, and you're going to know where you stand. If you have any flaw, Chris, they're going to tell you what it is, right? And it's going to be immediate and everybody's going to mock you. With girls, it's more circuitous.

Um, boys are so obvious in their bullying. They're really like, they value dominance and submission. So they are going to put you in your place either physically or verbally, and you're going to know where you stand. If you have any flaw, Chris, they're going to tell you what it is, right? And it's going to be immediate and everybody's going to mock you. With girls, it's more circuitous.

Like we value inclusion and exclusion a little bit more than boys. So we use our relationships as a vehicle to cause harm. So we're more likely to use indirect aggression, which is also called social or relational aggression. So we will spread rumors about you. We'll exclude you from the peer group, those sorts of things.

Like we value inclusion and exclusion a little bit more than boys. So we use our relationships as a vehicle to cause harm. So we're more likely to use indirect aggression, which is also called social or relational aggression. So we will spread rumors about you. We'll exclude you from the peer group, those sorts of things.

We'll give you a once over and give you a death stare and mock and laugh at you. and and do that over and over again um we'll pretend we are friends with you but we're really just trying to elicit information from you to use it against you so we are think are more instrumental and boys are more reactive so we're proactive and boys are more reactive although they can also be proactive boys

We'll give you a once over and give you a death stare and mock and laugh at you. and and do that over and over again um we'll pretend we are friends with you but we're really just trying to elicit information from you to use it against you so we are think are more instrumental and boys are more reactive so we're proactive and boys are more reactive although they can also be proactive boys

So there's a little bit of cross-sex bullying. It mostly happens in elementary school. When they get to be in high school, they really just want to date each other. So they don't do it as much.

So there's a little bit of cross-sex bullying. It mostly happens in elementary school. When they get to be in high school, they really just want to date each other. So they don't do it as much.

Yeah, exactly. And also, I think we've done a pretty good job at really making it clear that, you know, good boys don't pick on girls. So I think if you're doing that when you're 17, there's something pretty wrong about you.

Yeah, exactly. And also, I think we've done a pretty good job at really making it clear that, you know, good boys don't pick on girls. So I think if you're doing that when you're 17, there's something pretty wrong about you.

So yeah, so you tend to not see it as, as much as they get older, but when they're little kids and they haven't got the script yet and they haven't, or the memo hasn't been received. Um, yeah, little boys can be little shits to girls, but little girls can be little shits to boys.

So yeah, so you tend to not see it as, as much as they get older, but when they're little kids and they haven't got the script yet and they haven't, or the memo hasn't been received. Um, yeah, little boys can be little shits to girls, but little girls can be little shits to boys.

Yeah. It's interesting though. So the sex difference in, in the expression of bullying. Um, so a lot of times people want to say that there's no gender difference when it comes to indirect aggression, but they have not looked at it in terms of proportion. So they look at it in terms of means and it's true. Boys use it just as much as girls, but girls only use this.

Yeah. It's interesting though. So the sex difference in, in the expression of bullying. Um, so a lot of times people want to say that there's no gender difference when it comes to indirect aggression, but they have not looked at it in terms of proportion. So they look at it in terms of means and it's true. Boys use it just as much as girls, but girls only use this.

And they tend to focus on this form of bullying early on. So we can see it in, um, Three-year-olds, four-year-olds, five-year-olds were, you know, you can't sit with me during circle time. They spread little rumors, you know, Chris pees his pants, that sort of thing. So they're pretty mean.

And they tend to focus on this form of bullying early on. So we can see it in, um, Three-year-olds, four-year-olds, five-year-olds were, you know, you can't sit with me during circle time. They spread little rumors, you know, Chris pees his pants, that sort of thing. So they're pretty mean.

We did a couple studies where we looked at toddlers and we did direct observations and these girls were nasty.

We did a couple studies where we looked at toddlers and we did direct observations and these girls were nasty.

I think needs, obviously it needs to improve because kids are so profoundly affected and so are teens and so are adults. So what is it that, why does this persist? Why can't we move that to be in a, like move it so that we have better rates, but better, I mean, lower rates of bullying and, and we're just not there. Like there was one I think there's one promising area.

I think needs, obviously it needs to improve because kids are so profoundly affected and so are teens and so are adults. So what is it that, why does this persist? Why can't we move that to be in a, like move it so that we have better rates, but better, I mean, lower rates of bullying and, and we're just not there. Like there was one I think there's one promising area.

I like how you described it. I think that really is what it is. They're practicing, they're honing a skill for the future. Kai Bjornquist proposed this heterotopic continuity model.

I like how you described it. I think that really is what it is. They're practicing, they're honing a skill for the future. Kai Bjornquist proposed this heterotopic continuity model.

Yeah, of aggression. Fuck yeah. He talked about how, I mean, everybody eventually moves towards indirect aggression because it's the thing that society tolerates. But they don't, you know, we don't tolerate little girls punching little boys. We tolerate boys punching boys up until a certain point. But he also talked about how this happens.

Yeah, of aggression. Fuck yeah. He talked about how, I mean, everybody eventually moves towards indirect aggression because it's the thing that society tolerates. But they don't, you know, we don't tolerate little girls punching little boys. We tolerate boys punching boys up until a certain point. But he also talked about how this happens.

And one of the things is that girls just have superior verbal and social skills early in life. And it continues across the lifespan. I know a lot of people are... turned off by sex difference research. But you can't call yourself a critical thinker if you don't think sex differences exist, because they certainly exist.

And one of the things is that girls just have superior verbal and social skills early in life. And it continues across the lifespan. I know a lot of people are... turned off by sex difference research. But you can't call yourself a critical thinker if you don't think sex differences exist, because they certainly exist.

It's such a robust finding. It's been shown in so many labs around the world. So little girls started early.

It's such a robust finding. It's been shown in so many labs around the world. So little girls started early.

They were four times more likely to bully others than those who didn't have power, who were not popular. And then it just kind of snowballed from there.

They were four times more likely to bully others than those who didn't have power, who were not popular. And then it just kind of snowballed from there.

You haven't been exposed to the

You haven't been exposed to the

A hundred percent. It's hard for some people to swallow it. As you know, I have a book coming out and that's basically the topic. It's about how our brain today represents hundreds of thousands of years of selection pressure. We may want to say that it's all socialization, but there's just no way. there's no way that we are where we are today without evolutionary forces at play.

A hundred percent. It's hard for some people to swallow it. As you know, I have a book coming out and that's basically the topic. It's about how our brain today represents hundreds of thousands of years of selection pressure. We may want to say that it's all socialization, but there's just no way. there's no way that we are where we are today without evolutionary forces at play.

We did this study that really speaks to this. So like we're talking a little bit about indirect aggression and we did a study where I was really interested in what the early origins of that were. And so we looked at two-year-olds And like, so not very advanced in their language, not very sophisticated. And we looked at this thing called love withdrawal.

We did this study that really speaks to this. So like we're talking a little bit about indirect aggression and we did a study where I was really interested in what the early origins of that were. And so we looked at two-year-olds And like, so not very advanced in their language, not very sophisticated. And we looked at this thing called love withdrawal.

They're looking at, again, power. I think that's really what you need to focus on because bullying is a systematic abuse of power. But the kids who were most and teens who were most impervious to bullying intervention programs were the ones who were the most popular in the school because they don't want to give up their power holding position.

They're looking at, again, power. I think that's really what you need to focus on because bullying is a systematic abuse of power. But the kids who were most and teens who were most impervious to bullying intervention programs were the ones who were the most popular in the school because they don't want to give up their power holding position.

So it's basically relational or indirect aggression, but a baby version where you are mad and you won't kiss your mom or you refuse to hug them, you turn your back, you know, give them a baby silent treatment. And we found that Close to 80% of toddlers did this, as reported by parents and by their preschool teachers, their daycare teachers. So we're pretty sophisticated social animals.

So it's basically relational or indirect aggression, but a baby version where you are mad and you won't kiss your mom or you refuse to hug them, you turn your back, you know, give them a baby silent treatment. And we found that Close to 80% of toddlers did this, as reported by parents and by their preschool teachers, their daycare teachers. So we're pretty sophisticated social animals.

And it's interesting because like in that we talked about how there was also a relationship to how it's used between parents. And is it the case that, you know, parents think, well, I'm not hitting my spouse. I'm not yelling at my spouse, but I'm stonewalling them for two weeks straight. And that's like a better way of expressing it. And then the kids are picking that up.

And it's interesting because like in that we talked about how there was also a relationship to how it's used between parents. And is it the case that, you know, parents think, well, I'm not hitting my spouse. I'm not yelling at my spouse, but I'm stonewalling them for two weeks straight. And that's like a better way of expressing it. And then the kids are picking that up.

Or it's like, what is the origin of this? And I don't know. Like, I'm not... Not here to answer that at this point. It was the first study that was done. It needs to be replicated. Everything needs to be replicated now. As you know, Chris, you got a good idea.

Or it's like, what is the origin of this? And I don't know. Like, I'm not... Not here to answer that at this point. It was the first study that was done. It needs to be replicated. Everything needs to be replicated now. As you know, Chris, you got a good idea.

objectively successful but experientially miserable relationship like is that really the pinnacle of what you're expecting in the rest of your life exactly it's attachment theory right it's about this is the prototype and is this the prototype you want kids to have there was some studies done I think Sarah Jaffe is the one who did it like

objectively successful but experientially miserable relationship like is that really the pinnacle of what you're expecting in the rest of your life exactly it's attachment theory right it's about this is the prototype and is this the prototype you want kids to have there was some studies done I think Sarah Jaffe is the one who did it like

maybe 15, 20 years ago, showing that it's actually really dangerous for kids to be in a home with an antisocial dad. Their outcomes are better than not having that antisocial dad in the home. So like, yeah, so keep families together, but at what cost? I mean, it really, you know, it's like everything. There's always going to be variance. There's always heterogeneity.

maybe 15, 20 years ago, showing that it's actually really dangerous for kids to be in a home with an antisocial dad. Their outcomes are better than not having that antisocial dad in the home. So like, yeah, so keep families together, but at what cost? I mean, it really, you know, it's like everything. There's always going to be variance. There's always heterogeneity.

And we have to be thinking about these nuances because it's not going to be one size fits all. Yeah, having a dad who's, you know, modeling really inappropriate behavior. And I know people are going to say, well, what about moms? This is the study that looked at dads. But yeah, any of these role models being corrupt is a problem.

And we have to be thinking about these nuances because it's not going to be one size fits all. Yeah, having a dad who's, you know, modeling really inappropriate behavior. And I know people are going to say, well, what about moms? This is the study that looked at dads. But yeah, any of these role models being corrupt is a problem.

And that's also the peers, like having the leadership of your school be corrupt is not good for the health of your school.

And that's also the peers, like having the leadership of your school be corrupt is not good for the health of your school.

I think there's a lot of different motivations, but I think primarily it's about the corrupting influence of power. So our longitudinal studies show that, okay, so there's a certain percentage of kids, probably about 10% of kids. And when I say kids, I mean anybody under 18. So there's a certain percentage of kids who just have sort of like emotional dysregulation. So prefrontal dysfunction.

I think there's a lot of different motivations, but I think primarily it's about the corrupting influence of power. So our longitudinal studies show that, okay, so there's a certain percentage of kids, probably about 10% of kids. And when I say kids, I mean anybody under 18. So there's a certain percentage of kids who just have sort of like emotional dysregulation. So prefrontal dysfunction.

And I'll just add this because I think we'd be remiss if we didn't. One of the challenges about families breaking up is that oftentimes women and children are left in poverty. And poverty is a huge stressor. Poverty changes the brains of children.

And I'll just add this because I think we'd be remiss if we didn't. One of the challenges about families breaking up is that oftentimes women and children are left in poverty. And poverty is a huge stressor. Poverty changes the brains of children.

And so this is where like beyond the behavioral things that we're talking about and the socializing influence that we're talking about, if we could have kids and women not live in poverty, then... I think we would see different outcomes.

And so this is where like beyond the behavioral things that we're talking about and the socializing influence that we're talking about, if we could have kids and women not live in poverty, then... I think we would see different outcomes.

And if we were to hold that statistically, account for that statistically, I think that we would be making different decisions, but also we would hold a different viewpoint about this.

And if we were to hold that statistically, account for that statistically, I think that we would be making different decisions, but also we would hold a different viewpoint about this.

Yeah, I think those variances need to be separated, accounted for, or their interactions need to be examined. But at the end of the day, we don't want kids to be hurt. Obviously, that's never going to be good for a kid's life. And living in a home where everything is about love withdrawal and control, social control and the like, that's also not healthy.

Yeah, I think those variances need to be separated, accounted for, or their interactions need to be examined. But at the end of the day, we don't want kids to be hurt. Obviously, that's never going to be good for a kid's life. And living in a home where everything is about love withdrawal and control, social control and the like, that's also not healthy.

Terrible. They are so unwell and they're so poorly treated. And especially right now with the current pandemic,

Terrible. They are so unwell and they're so poorly treated. And especially right now with the current pandemic,

I get asked that question all the time. People want to think that it was because either I was a bully or I was bullied. But the truth of the matter was I was just really interested in popularity and popularity led me to bullying because the kids at my high school were the ones who bullied the most. I went ahead and looked at that for my dissertation and found that

I get asked that question all the time. People want to think that it was because either I was a bully or I was bullied. But the truth of the matter was I was just really interested in popularity and popularity led me to bullying because the kids at my high school were the ones who bullied the most. I went ahead and looked at that for my dissertation and found that

Okay, so we'll talk about lesbian, gay, bisexual students are bullied at higher rates than heterosexual students. But again, the context matters. So if you're in, let's say, a performing arts school where there's an over-representation, you're not going to be as bullied. It gets back to enumeration, that sort of thing, and also what the culture of the school is.

Okay, so we'll talk about lesbian, gay, bisexual students are bullied at higher rates than heterosexual students. But again, the context matters. So if you're in, let's say, a performing arts school where there's an over-representation, you're not going to be as bullied. It gets back to enumeration, that sort of thing, and also what the culture of the school is.

But on average, they're not treated well. They're bullied at higher rates for sure. And trans youth are particularly vulnerable. And also their mental health is off the chart. Like their poor mental health is higher than anything I've seen in my career. So we have this really massive study where we're following hundreds of thousands of kids in Ontario.

But on average, they're not treated well. They're bullied at higher rates for sure. And trans youth are particularly vulnerable. And also their mental health is off the chart. Like their poor mental health is higher than anything I've seen in my career. So we have this really massive study where we're following hundreds of thousands of kids in Ontario.

And those who identify as trans are not doing well.

And those who identify as trans are not doing well.

So ADHD, conduct disorder, that sort of thing. The Nelsons, Nelson from the Simpsons. So that's a great representation of who I mean. Our past studies and our past intervention efforts have focused on Nelson or the Nelsons of the world. But they are so different and they don't really represent the true bully out there. So when you look at it, what happens is that kids have

So ADHD, conduct disorder, that sort of thing. The Nelsons, Nelson from the Simpsons. So that's a great representation of who I mean. Our past studies and our past intervention efforts have focused on Nelson or the Nelsons of the world. But they are so different and they don't really represent the true bully out there. So when you look at it, what happens is that kids have

I think the temporal precedence has not been established because it's been so politically challenging to study this. And this is always a problem when politics interfere with science and knowledge, then you can't get to truth. I think that you know that we both know that this is a problem.

I think the temporal precedence has not been established because it's been so politically challenging to study this. And this is always a problem when politics interfere with science and knowledge, then you can't get to truth. I think that you know that we both know that this is a problem.

And also too, it's frustrating to see the exception always being hailed as truth, right? Like these are, they are very sensational stories. They elicit a lot of reaction. They get circulated a lot. They get stuck in your brain because of how salient they are. And that then is weaponized against this group that's quite diverse, right?

And also too, it's frustrating to see the exception always being hailed as truth, right? Like these are, they are very sensational stories. They elicit a lot of reaction. They get circulated a lot. They get stuck in your brain because of how salient they are. And that then is weaponized against this group that's quite diverse, right?

And that's a problem because we're really causing harm to individuals who don't fit that minority that is hailed as being the boogeyman. And I, it, yeah, it, I feel for trans kids. I very much do. I think that they're in a really tough spot and, um, and we really need to be thinking about this. These are young people. So, um,

And that's a problem because we're really causing harm to individuals who don't fit that minority that is hailed as being the boogeyman. And I, it, yeah, it, I feel for trans kids. I very much do. I think that they're in a really tough spot and, um, and we really need to be thinking about this. These are young people. So, um,

Ultimately, you know, society should be judged on how well they care for their most vulnerable. And I don't think our report card's very good in this area.

Ultimately, you know, society should be judged on how well they care for their most vulnerable. And I don't think our report card's very good in this area.

That's precisely the mechanism. They think that what they're doing is justified, that the person deserves their poor treatment. And if they don't think it, they will convince themselves that they do. So they may have reacted impulsively and then justified it using moral disengagement principles, or they had already, you know, They've already said this person's less.

That's precisely the mechanism. They think that what they're doing is justified, that the person deserves their poor treatment. And if they don't think it, they will convince themselves that they do. So they may have reacted impulsively and then justified it using moral disengagement principles, or they had already, you know, They've already said this person's less.

They've already dehumanized the individual. And then that has given them license to treat them poorly. Moral disengagement, I think, is the most important theory that explains how everyday people become bullies, how everyday people can treat others poorly and still sleep with a good conscience. Because really, it's about making our egregious acts more palatable.

They've already dehumanized the individual. And then that has given them license to treat them poorly. Moral disengagement, I think, is the most important theory that explains how everyday people become bullies, how everyday people can treat others poorly and still sleep with a good conscience. Because really, it's about making our egregious acts more palatable.

assets and competencies that the peer group values. They're good looking, they're good athletes, they're whatever. Every school has a different context or a different culture, I mean. And so those kids then are afforded power. And then that power is then abused. So then they use aggressive means to maintain hegemony. And, but also to have achieved it.

assets and competencies that the peer group values. They're good looking, they're good athletes, they're whatever. Every school has a different context or a different culture, I mean. And so those kids then are afforded power. And then that power is then abused. So then they use aggressive means to maintain hegemony. And, but also to have achieved it.

So there's a variety of different cognitive strategies, but basically you're trying to make your shitty behavior seem justified. Okay. So you may dehumanize the victim. You may blame the victim. You may diffuse responsibility. You may make advantageous comparisons. So like, listen, I just called her stupid. Chris is the one who shoved her in the locker. Like, come on, not even comparable.

So there's a variety of different cognitive strategies, but basically you're trying to make your shitty behavior seem justified. Okay. So you may dehumanize the victim. You may blame the victim. You may diffuse responsibility. You may make advantageous comparisons. So like, listen, I just called her stupid. Chris is the one who shoved her in the locker. Like, come on, not even comparable.

So those are like, we use these, these mechanisms, these cognitive mechanisms to, to live with ourselves for the crummy behavior that we did. The other thing that people who bully others tend to do is they tend to not pick up on the cues of distress because But in fairness, part of it is because the power has corrupted them, so they just don't see it. Their brain actually works differently.

So those are like, we use these, these mechanisms, these cognitive mechanisms to, to live with ourselves for the crummy behavior that we did. The other thing that people who bully others tend to do is they tend to not pick up on the cues of distress because But in fairness, part of it is because the power has corrupted them, so they just don't see it. Their brain actually works differently.

But the other part of it is that it's so embarrassing and humiliating to be bullied that a lot of times, and it's done so publicly, it really is typically a public event, that kids then hide their distress. So the one cue that is needed for the public, the bystanders to come in and support me is what I'm suppressing.

But the other part of it is that it's so embarrassing and humiliating to be bullied that a lot of times, and it's done so publicly, it really is typically a public event, that kids then hide their distress. So the one cue that is needed for the public, the bystanders to come in and support me is what I'm suppressing.

And it's the one cue that maybe will get that bully to be morally engaged instead of disengaged is the thing that I'm suppressing. So it's, you know, it gets really ugly.

And it's the one cue that maybe will get that bully to be morally engaged instead of disengaged is the thing that I'm suppressing. So it's, you know, it gets really ugly.

I think in the moment, so there is some evidence that yes, but I think in the moment is when they have an empathetic gap, because that is when the moral disengagement is taking place. And that's when they feel fully justified. So maybe when they look back at it with fresh eyes and none of the emotional valence attached to it, they're able to be a bit more objective.

I think in the moment, so there is some evidence that yes, but I think in the moment is when they have an empathetic gap, because that is when the moral disengagement is taking place. And that's when they feel fully justified. So maybe when they look back at it with fresh eyes and none of the emotional valence attached to it, they're able to be a bit more objective.

You pointed at one thing, though, and I just wanted to say, because if I'm not plugging my studies, what's the point of even being here? That we did a study of 1700 teachers and we asked them, like, why would you intervene on behalf of a kid who's been bullied? Like, what are the cues? Like, what is it that's going to that's going to motivate you to do something? And they said distress.

You pointed at one thing, though, and I just wanted to say, because if I'm not plugging my studies, what's the point of even being here? That we did a study of 1700 teachers and we asked them, like, why would you intervene on behalf of a kid who's been bullied? Like, what are the cues? Like, what is it that's going to that's going to motivate you to do something? And they said distress.

Distress was the number one reason that they would intervene on behalf of kids who are bullied and teens who are bullied. And as I just said, they're suppressing distress. So we're counting on adults to lead in this area, and they're not able to pick up the one cue that they need to to realize that something nefarious is going on.

Distress was the number one reason that they would intervene on behalf of kids who are bullied and teens who are bullied. And as I just said, they're suppressing distress. So we're counting on adults to lead in this area, and they're not able to pick up the one cue that they need to to realize that something nefarious is going on.

So first of all, bullying goes down as kids get older. So it is a lot more atypical in high school students than it is in elementary and middle school students.

So first of all, bullying goes down as kids get older. So it is a lot more atypical in high school students than it is in elementary and middle school students.

It really has to do about like there's so many different factors, but part of it is going to be social skills, where their brain is, their brain development, social development, moral development, cognitive development, all those things interacting. And there's also like they're vying for limited resources.

It really has to do about like there's so many different factors, but part of it is going to be social skills, where their brain is, their brain development, social development, moral development, cognitive development, all those things interacting. And there's also like they're vying for limited resources.

So there's a little bit of resource scarcity, which I mispronounced as scarity twice the last time I was on your show. Didn't get bullied over that, Chris. So that's okay. So there's also a bit of resource scarcity that's involved. So all of these things interact well. They're just not that socially skilled. In our intervention programs, we never talk about power.

So there's a little bit of resource scarcity, which I mispronounced as scarity twice the last time I was on your show. Didn't get bullied over that, Chris. So that's okay. So there's also a bit of resource scarcity that's involved. So all of these things interact well. They're just not that socially skilled. In our intervention programs, we never talk about power.

So like the beauty gets you there first and then it corrupts you. And then it just escalates into you being a complete jerk and then ruling the school. And then, uh, in a sense, like creating the norms of the school, because these kids are so powerful and so salient, um, that everybody pays attention to them and everybody emulates what they're doing. And then next thing you know, you have, um,

So like the beauty gets you there first and then it corrupts you. And then it just escalates into you being a complete jerk and then ruling the school. And then, uh, in a sense, like creating the norms of the school, because these kids are so powerful and so salient, um, that everybody pays attention to them and everybody emulates what they're doing. And then next thing you know, you have, um,

We never talk about how power corrupts. We never talk about how when you're afforded power, how it behooves you to be a good citizen, to not abuse your power. So, you know, we're not expecting kids are going to have these lessons. At the end of the day, we're animals, right? We're primates. This is what all primates do. So we're socializing kids out of this.

We never talk about how power corrupts. We never talk about how when you're afforded power, how it behooves you to be a good citizen, to not abuse your power. So, you know, we're not expecting kids are going to have these lessons. At the end of the day, we're animals, right? We're primates. This is what all primates do. So we're socializing kids out of this.

They're not necessarily socialized into it. Some of it is maintained through socialization, as we've spoken about. Like I've said this over and over again. But I also think that we're coming to the school with these deficits to begin with.

They're not necessarily socialized into it. Some of it is maintained through socialization, as we've spoken about. Like I've said this over and over again. But I also think that we're coming to the school with these deficits to begin with.

It's precisely what you said, everything, all of the above. And you and I talked about it in the last time we spoke too, is it really is like the hierarchies are pretty pronounced in elementary and high school. They're maintaining their power holding position coercively, but also using pro-social means. So it really has to do with that. So how do you maintain power? Well,

It's precisely what you said, everything, all of the above. And you and I talked about it in the last time we spoke too, is it really is like the hierarchies are pretty pronounced in elementary and high school. They're maintaining their power holding position coercively, but also using pro-social means. So it really has to do with that. So how do you maintain power? Well,

You abuse those below you. You scare them. But then you also charm them. So like it's complicated. It's, again, this blending of pro-social and anti-social behavior. And then there's lack of autonomy. You spoke a little bit about that before. And it really is that. Like they don't have the same autonomy that you and I have. You know, as friends in adulthood, you treat me poorly.

You abuse those below you. You scare them. But then you also charm them. So like it's complicated. It's, again, this blending of pro-social and anti-social behavior. And then there's lack of autonomy. You spoke a little bit about that before. And it really is that. Like they don't have the same autonomy that you and I have. You know, as friends in adulthood, you treat me poorly.

I don't have to worry about seeing you again at school. So we're done. I can move on. Whereas in high school and elementary school, you are going to see them again and you're going to have to manage that. And there's just some kids that are just more dominant than others, right? And they're imposing their will on others. And not everybody's appreciating that.

I don't have to worry about seeing you again at school. So we're done. I can move on. Whereas in high school and elementary school, you are going to see them again and you're going to have to manage that. And there's just some kids that are just more dominant than others, right? And they're imposing their will on others. And not everybody's appreciating that.

But not everybody has the same skill set to be able to impose their will on others. There's little primates put together in same age bands. And then that same age band is then mixed with other age bands. And we wonder why it happens.

But not everybody has the same skill set to be able to impose their will on others. There's little primates put together in same age bands. And then that same age band is then mixed with other age bands. And we wonder why it happens.

It affects all aspects of their life. It affects everything in the immediate and then the long term. It affects their mental health, their physical health, their academic achievement, their sense of self. It changes who they are. Fundamentally, and not only that, it lasts a lifetime.

It affects all aspects of their life. It affects everything in the immediate and then the long term. It affects their mental health, their physical health, their academic achievement, their sense of self. It changes who they are. Fundamentally, and not only that, it lasts a lifetime.

So studies that have followed individuals 30, 50 years show that you can identify somebody who was bullied at 10 and they still have higher mental health rates at 50. And at 60, it's a scar that never heals. Now, some, of course, will have it, will get by. But for the most part, you won't. And the reason why you won't is that it's so salient. It's so disruptive.

So studies that have followed individuals 30, 50 years show that you can identify somebody who was bullied at 10 and they still have higher mental health rates at 50. And at 60, it's a scar that never heals. Now, some, of course, will have it, will get by. But for the most part, you won't. And the reason why you won't is that it's so salient. It's so disruptive.

the entire environment has been corrupted, not just the individual.

the entire environment has been corrupted, not just the individual.

It serves a function for you to never forget. So it's a social pain that's seared in your amygdala and you're never going to get past it. You may be better, you may get better for sure.

It serves a function for you to never forget. So it's a social pain that's seared in your amygdala and you're never going to get past it. You may be better, you may get better for sure.

But if you think about it, so like if you and I did a thought experiment right now, and I know you said you were bullied as a child, and you think about those moments, you're probably gonna still have a visceral reaction. And that has an evolutionary significance. That not belonging is so salient. It's how we got ahead as a human species.

But if you think about it, so like if you and I did a thought experiment right now, and I know you said you were bullied as a child, and you think about those moments, you're probably gonna still have a visceral reaction. And that has an evolutionary significance. That not belonging is so salient. It's how we got ahead as a human species.

It's how we collaborate that the neural alarm is massive when you don't. And so your brain is going to never forget it and neither will your body.

It's how we collaborate that the neural alarm is massive when you don't. And so your brain is going to never forget it and neither will your body.

So when we look at, um, you and I talked about this last time about 5-HTT-LPR, the serotonin transporter gene. So, and obviously like genetics have advanced epigenetics is kind of like the new thing they're doing full scans. Um, full gene scans and the like. So there's a few people looking at the genetic vulnerability and there is a little bit that exists.

So when we look at, um, you and I talked about this last time about 5-HTT-LPR, the serotonin transporter gene. So, and obviously like genetics have advanced epigenetics is kind of like the new thing they're doing full scans. Um, full gene scans and the like. So there's a few people looking at the genetic vulnerability and there is a little bit that exists.

That's 90% of kids who bully others.

That's 90% of kids who bully others.

I can't tell you what specific genes are involved. I don't think that's the way to go. It doesn't make sense to me. I think that was the way to go 20 years ago. That's how we thought about it, but we don't think about it that way today. I do think that there are other things that like, obviously genes influence everything.

I can't tell you what specific genes are involved. I don't think that's the way to go. It doesn't make sense to me. I think that was the way to go 20 years ago. That's how we thought about it, but we don't think about it that way today. I do think that there are other things that like, obviously genes influence everything.

So the way a person sees the world is going to also be attached to how they interpret events. Some people are just more sensitive to cues of belonging and not belonging. So they're high on rejection sensitivity. Some individuals are more anxious. So if you think about it from a biological perspective, their limbic system is more active, their prefrontal cortex, in a sense.

So the way a person sees the world is going to also be attached to how they interpret events. Some people are just more sensitive to cues of belonging and not belonging. So they're high on rejection sensitivity. Some individuals are more anxious. So if you think about it from a biological perspective, their limbic system is more active, their prefrontal cortex, in a sense.

gets hijacked by their limbic system and it won't let them calm down. It won't let them be rational. It won't let them see things, um, as more nuanced. So all of these individual differences affect how a person deals with bullying. I think it's really important. And that's the bulk of my work is showing that, um,

gets hijacked by their limbic system and it won't let them calm down. It won't let them be rational. It won't let them see things, um, as more nuanced. So all of these individual differences affect how a person deals with bullying. I think it's really important. And that's the bulk of my work is showing that, um,

these this kind of heterogeneity because it's really important because some kids do better than others and then the kids who do better are kind of seen as the poster child of like this is what you should aspire to be the fact that you're not doing as well as becky is because there's something wrong with you chris if you just weren't so whiny if you just weren't so um

these this kind of heterogeneity because it's really important because some kids do better than others and then the kids who do better are kind of seen as the poster child of like this is what you should aspire to be the fact that you're not doing as well as becky is because there's something wrong with you chris if you just weren't so whiny if you just weren't so um

squeaky, whatever you want to call it, then you could be okay. Just suck it up and you'll be okay. So I'm really trying to chronicle this. There's a lot of individual differences, but there really is a difference in how they see the world sometimes. But again, back to that temporal priority, is it the case that They're treated poorly and then it changes their worldview.

squeaky, whatever you want to call it, then you could be okay. Just suck it up and you'll be okay. So I'm really trying to chronicle this. There's a lot of individual differences, but there really is a difference in how they see the world sometimes. But again, back to that temporal priority, is it the case that They're treated poorly and then it changes their worldview.

There are some. There are definitely some kind leaders. I make a distinction in my research between implicit and explicit power. So implicit power is the type of power you achieve by having competencies and assets that the peer group values and you don't abuse your power. And then explicit power is the type of power that you achieve through coercive means.

There are some. There are definitely some kind leaders. I make a distinction in my research between implicit and explicit power. So implicit power is the type of power you achieve by having competencies and assets that the peer group values and you don't abuse your power. And then explicit power is the type of power that you achieve through coercive means.

Or do they have a worldview that's different that then causes them to be treated poorly? The peer group picks up on and then it moves forward. Our studies typically show symptoms-driven effects, meaning that kids who have poor mental health are picked on. Then that makes their mental health poorer. And if you've ever been around depressed people, you can kind of see what's happening.

Or do they have a worldview that's different that then causes them to be treated poorly? The peer group picks up on and then it moves forward. Our studies typically show symptoms-driven effects, meaning that kids who have poor mental health are picked on. Then that makes their mental health poorer. And if you've ever been around depressed people, you can kind of see what's happening.

They seem aloof. They don't seem interested. They don't have a lot of motivation. They're not a lot of fun. I'm not expecting them to be. I'm not saying that at all. But the peer group doesn't quite like that. So then they pick up on those cues of being unwell and then pick on these kids and then make them even more unwell. So...

They seem aloof. They don't seem interested. They don't have a lot of motivation. They're not a lot of fun. I'm not expecting them to be. I'm not saying that at all. But the peer group doesn't quite like that. So then they pick up on those cues of being unwell and then pick on these kids and then make them even more unwell. So...

And then there's going to be some kids who arrive at school ready to get at her, and then they're treated so poorly, and then they become unwell, and then their worldview changes.

And then there's going to be some kids who arrive at school ready to get at her, and then they're treated so poorly, and then they become unwell, and then their worldview changes.

I love how you said that. And it's kind of like, okay, so if we think about it, so the biology has changed in some way, right? So we know, and I'll just pick on the hypothalamic pituitary adrenal axis, the HPA axis, which is our stress response system. I've done a lot of work on that. We've published longitudinal studies. We know what's happening when it comes to HPA dysfunction and bullying.

I love how you said that. And it's kind of like, okay, so if we think about it, so the biology has changed in some way, right? So we know, and I'll just pick on the hypothalamic pituitary adrenal axis, the HPA axis, which is our stress response system. I've done a lot of work on that. We've published longitudinal studies. We know what's happening when it comes to HPA dysfunction and bullying.

So kids who are bullied tend to either overproduce or underproduce cortisol. And in time, they underproduce cortisol. So when you're faced with an acute stressor, your HPA axis reacts, right? Like you ramp up a flight or fight reaction. I mean, obviously it's a little bit more complicated than that, but But, you know, I'm just giving a basic mechanism.

So kids who are bullied tend to either overproduce or underproduce cortisol. And in time, they underproduce cortisol. So when you're faced with an acute stressor, your HPA axis reacts, right? Like you ramp up a flight or fight reaction. I mean, obviously it's a little bit more complicated than that, but But, you know, I'm just giving a basic mechanism.

And then 20 minutes later, cortisol has spiked. And so that's what we're measuring. We're measuring cortisol and how it's coming up. And so your first time you're getting bullied, Chris, your cortisol is going to be high, high, high, high. And then as I follow you for the next three years, eventually one thing I'm going to see is that your cortisol is going to be low. And it's an adaptive process.

And then 20 minutes later, cortisol has spiked. And so that's what we're measuring. We're measuring cortisol and how it's coming up. And so your first time you're getting bullied, Chris, your cortisol is going to be high, high, high, high. And then as I follow you for the next three years, eventually one thing I'm going to see is that your cortisol is going to be low. And it's an adaptive process.

So there's a, you know, the body is set on for homeostasis. It's set to like keep you healthy. doing well, surviving, thriving as best as you can, even in difficult environments. So bringing down your cortisol is a good way of doing it. And it could be brought down because your glucocorticoid receptor sites are now damaged from your brain being bathed in cortisol.

So there's a, you know, the body is set on for homeostasis. It's set to like keep you healthy. doing well, surviving, thriving as best as you can, even in difficult environments. So bringing down your cortisol is a good way of doing it. And it could be brought down because your glucocorticoid receptor sites are now damaged from your brain being bathed in cortisol.

There's other mechanisms that also explain this. But the point of the matter is, is now we have low cortisol. And so your reaction to future stressors looks different now. And not just the stressors of bullying, the stressors across your life. And so now we have changed the way a person is interacting and behaving in their world as a function of being stressed. terrible to them.

There's other mechanisms that also explain this. But the point of the matter is, is now we have low cortisol. And so your reaction to future stressors looks different now. And not just the stressors of bullying, the stressors across your life. And so now we have changed the way a person is interacting and behaving in their world as a function of being stressed. terrible to them.

And that bothers me because these behavioral and biological changes set them up for future risk. So they're more likely to be at risk for post-traumatic stress disorder. So now, Chris, you've been bullied as a kid. long-standing bullying issue.

And that bothers me because these behavioral and biological changes set them up for future risk. So they're more likely to be at risk for post-traumatic stress disorder. So now, Chris, you've been bullied as a kid. long-standing bullying issue.

And it elicits fear and compliance and submission. And then kids who bully others tend to be this melange of implicit and explicit power. So they do have some redeeming qualities sometimes. They can be pro-social. They tend to be strategic. They're interpersonally exploitative, like that sort of thing exists. So Machiavellian.

And it elicits fear and compliance and submission. And then kids who bully others tend to be this melange of implicit and explicit power. So they do have some redeeming qualities sometimes. They can be pro-social. They tend to be strategic. They're interpersonally exploitative, like that sort of thing exists. So Machiavellian.

Now your HBA has down-regulated itself as a protective factor and you get into a horrific car accident when you're 22 years old and you end up with PTSD that's debilitating and it causes you significant harm for the next five years. If you hadn't had that experience, PTSD probably wouldn't have been in your future. And that's the stuff that we're looking at and we're working on.

Now your HBA has down-regulated itself as a protective factor and you get into a horrific car accident when you're 22 years old and you end up with PTSD that's debilitating and it causes you significant harm for the next five years. If you hadn't had that experience, PTSD probably wouldn't have been in your future. And that's the stuff that we're looking at and we're working on.

So risk is exacerbated in the future because of the relationships that our grade three children have or our 10th graders are having. So it really behooves us to step it up in terms of intervention and prevention, right?

So risk is exacerbated in the future because of the relationships that our grade three children have or our 10th graders are having. So it really behooves us to step it up in terms of intervention and prevention, right?

So the past 25 years, we've studied this in earnest. It's been primarily correlational. I mean, it's going to be hard to do experiments on bullying when you think about it. I mean, it's just not going to work, really. But we've looked at it primarily from a correlational point of view. The first thing was just to sort of document the prevalence and the like.

So the past 25 years, we've studied this in earnest. It's been primarily correlational. I mean, it's going to be hard to do experiments on bullying when you think about it. I mean, it's just not going to work, really. But we've looked at it primarily from a correlational point of view. The first thing was just to sort of document the prevalence and the like.

So I focused on not overcoming it. And I know that sounds horrible, but that's kind of like, because I'm trying to get people motivated to change this. So I've really focused on the ones who aren't doing well. I don't think we have a good grasp of those who have done well, just like we don't really understand the true positive leaders.

So I focused on not overcoming it. And I know that sounds horrible, but that's kind of like, because I'm trying to get people motivated to change this. So I've really focused on the ones who aren't doing well. I don't think we have a good grasp of those who have done well, just like we don't really understand the true positive leaders.

So if I, you know, if you have young scientists that are listening and they're just starting their career, I want to know more about those who were bullied and seemed to do okay. I wanted, and maybe they had a protective gene. Maybe there was something about the way, like maybe the other protective, it might not even have been biological protective mechanism.

So if I, you know, if you have young scientists that are listening and they're just starting their career, I want to know more about those who were bullied and seemed to do okay. I wanted, and maybe they had a protective gene. Maybe there was something about the way, like maybe the other protective, it might not even have been biological protective mechanism.

It could have been their family was so amazing. Older brother. You know, like there's going to be so many things in the, but that would be great because historically we haven't focused on positive side of things. We've really focused on deficits and what's negative. So I want to know that.

It could have been their family was so amazing. Older brother. You know, like there's going to be so many things in the, but that would be great because historically we haven't focused on positive side of things. We've really focused on deficits and what's negative. So I want to know that.

And I think that comes down to therapy, like cognitive behavioral therapy would be really good. Can I mention another thing that kind of makes me... So like in my book, I really mentioned that like at the end of the day, we don't know what the long-term implications are. Like, well, we have an idea that it's not going to be good. We don't know if this can be fixed, if we can change this...

And I think that comes down to therapy, like cognitive behavioral therapy would be really good. Can I mention another thing that kind of makes me... So like in my book, I really mentioned that like at the end of the day, we don't know what the long-term implications are. Like, well, we have an idea that it's not going to be good. We don't know if this can be fixed, if we can change this...

how bullying gets under the skin to confer a risk. You know, I imagine we can because we're quite plastic. There's a lot of plasticity. One of the things that we're doing is we're trying to reduce bullying in earnest. And what studies are showing, and we just showed it, we still need to publish it, but it's just replicating what's been shown across Europe.

how bullying gets under the skin to confer a risk. You know, I imagine we can because we're quite plastic. There's a lot of plasticity. One of the things that we're doing is we're trying to reduce bullying in earnest. And what studies are showing, and we just showed it, we still need to publish it, but it's just replicating what's been shown across Europe.

There's this healthy context paradox where if you reduce bullying, the few kids left in the school who are bullied have worse mental outcomes. So in a sense, we've now made some kids even more vulnerable by reducing bullying. Wow. So what do you think that's about? Because I know you're a smart guy and you usually have the answer.

There's this healthy context paradox where if you reduce bullying, the few kids left in the school who are bullied have worse mental outcomes. So in a sense, we've now made some kids even more vulnerable by reducing bullying. Wow. So what do you think that's about? Because I know you're a smart guy and you usually have the answer.

But we don't have a good grasp on who those just pure implicit power people are. But they exist. We just don't know enough about them. So the kids who are pro-social and only pro-social, but extremely powerful within their school community.

But we don't have a good grasp on who those just pure implicit power people are. But they exist. We just don't know enough about them. So the kids who are pro-social and only pro-social, but extremely powerful within their school community.

So I think there's going to be a little bit of that. And that part hasn't, to my knowledge, hasn't been really looked at. But I love your answer. So I will tell you the answer to that because we have the data and I'll be able to know that. I think it comes back to also attributions. If there's a lot of us being picked on, the attribution is, these guys are just jerks.

So I think there's going to be a little bit of that. And that part hasn't, to my knowledge, hasn't been really looked at. But I love your answer. So I will tell you the answer to that because we have the data and I'll be able to know that. I think it comes back to also attributions. If there's a lot of us being picked on, the attribution is, these guys are just jerks.

Like, it's not about me because I'm not the only one. But if I'm the only one or there's only a few of us, There's something fundamentally wrong with us. That is, I think, the attribution error that occurs. So we're trying our best to reduce bullying. And in doing so, we're causing harm to a certain segment of the population. So now I'm going to school after school.

Like, it's not about me because I'm not the only one. But if I'm the only one or there's only a few of us, There's something fundamentally wrong with us. That is, I think, the attribution error that occurs. So we're trying our best to reduce bullying. And in doing so, we're causing harm to a certain segment of the population. So now I'm going to school after school.

Tomorrow I'm presenting to 170 principals in Quebec. But I do this all the time and I present the data and I say, here are the rates in your school. We've done a great job at reducing bullying in your school. Can we get your school counselors to now recognize that you have kids that are even more vulnerable than they were before? Isn't that a bit messed up?

Tomorrow I'm presenting to 170 principals in Quebec. But I do this all the time and I present the data and I say, here are the rates in your school. We've done a great job at reducing bullying in your school. Can we get your school counselors to now recognize that you have kids that are even more vulnerable than they were before? Isn't that a bit messed up?

So if you end up with worse mental health outcomes, it feels a little bit like... It's not what you would ever have expected, right? You would just think like, In a sense, we're doing God's work by reducing bullying. And yet the precious few who are left behind are doing worse than we've ever seen.

So if you end up with worse mental health outcomes, it feels a little bit like... It's not what you would ever have expected, right? You would just think like, In a sense, we're doing God's work by reducing bullying. And yet the precious few who are left behind are doing worse than we've ever seen.

I hate that and I get asked that all the time. It triggers me. So I always think like, well, okay, so you think you've done well, but let's just say I do a lot of stuff in sports because I'm a high performance soccer coach. I coach Team Ontario for the U17 girls and our Canada Games team. But in any event, the reason I mentioned that because it's a really easy way to explain this.

I hate that and I get asked that all the time. It triggers me. So I always think like, well, okay, so you think you've done well, but let's just say I do a lot of stuff in sports because I'm a high performance soccer coach. I coach Team Ontario for the U17 girls and our Canada Games team. But in any event, the reason I mentioned that because it's a really easy way to explain this.

So you are now an Olympian, Chris, right? You've won two Olympic gold medals in swimming. And you say, you know, the reason I'm an Olympian is because I was bullied. It made me stronger. It made me more resilient. And I always say, what if you were supposed to win 15 medals? Like, so, you know, you don't know what your top performance is.

So you are now an Olympian, Chris, right? You've won two Olympic gold medals in swimming. And you say, you know, the reason I'm an Olympian is because I was bullied. It made me stronger. It made me more resilient. And I always say, what if you were supposed to win 15 medals? Like, so, you know, you don't know what your top performance is.

You don't know where you're supposed to be and where, how far you can excel. You think that it didn't do anything to you, but there's going to be a biological component that definitely did that. Now, there are always exceptions to the rules. So I would be open-minded to maybe some people do better as a consequence of that. I'm struck by how often people don't want to change their experience.

You don't know where you're supposed to be and where, how far you can excel. You think that it didn't do anything to you, but there's going to be a biological component that definitely did that. Now, there are always exceptions to the rules. So I would be open-minded to maybe some people do better as a consequence of that. I'm struck by how often people don't want to change their experience.

what's the personality profile of a typical bully have you got have you done ocean or hexico or anything else on them have they got a star sign that we need to look out for yeah i so right now we're focusing more on the the dark triad and looking at how that unfolds and it's what you would expect they're really high on narcissism they're high on machiavellianism they're high on uh

what's the personality profile of a typical bully have you got have you done ocean or hexico or anything else on them have they got a star sign that we need to look out for yeah i so right now we're focusing more on the the dark triad and looking at how that unfolds and it's what you would expect they're really high on narcissism they're high on machiavellianism they're high on uh

If they could go back, they don't want to change their experience because they think it's what made them who they are today. But you could never know what your life would look like without that because you've experienced it and it can't be erased.

If they could go back, they don't want to change their experience because they think it's what made them who they are today. But you could never know what your life would look like without that because you've experienced it and it can't be erased.

Exactly. Yeah.

Exactly. Yeah.

And also, too, it's about making meaning from really terrible circumstances. Like we all want to be able to explain why that terrible thing happened to us and make sense of it. So it makes sense to me. The people that I work with, so I'm a professor of counseling psychology. I supervise counseling psychologists of the future.

And also, too, it's about making meaning from really terrible circumstances. Like we all want to be able to explain why that terrible thing happened to us and make sense of it. So it makes sense to me. The people that I work with, so I'm a professor of counseling psychology. I supervise counseling psychologists of the future.

The clients that they are managing, which are numerous, more than I would be able to do as a single clinician, these individuals are not doing well. They... My students are overwhelmingly seeing individuals who had poor interpersonal relationships, either with peers or with a caregiver. A lot of people are not forgetting these experiences.

The clients that they are managing, which are numerous, more than I would be able to do as a single clinician, these individuals are not doing well. They... My students are overwhelmingly seeing individuals who had poor interpersonal relationships, either with peers or with a caregiver. A lot of people are not forgetting these experiences.

Not at all.

Not at all.

20% reduction in bullying is what we're doing at our best. And we're doing it in younger kids and not in high school. It becomes entrenched as it gets... So it goes down, but the few victims that are left are, in a sense, lifetime victims. So it becomes entrenched. We're not doing a good job at all. When we use a whole school approach, we're better. When we have multiple components, we're better.

20% reduction in bullying is what we're doing at our best. And we're doing it in younger kids and not in high school. It becomes entrenched as it gets... So it goes down, but the few victims that are left are, in a sense, lifetime victims. So it becomes entrenched. We're not doing a good job at all. When we use a whole school approach, we're better. When we have multiple components, we're better.

When we involved younger kids, we're better. I think that... that group I told you that's not moving are the really high status popular kids who are creating the norms for your school. So really problematic. We can't, we can't figure this out quick enough. And I think it's because we have focused in a way, I think we have to bring it back. And like, in a sense,

When we involved younger kids, we're better. I think that... that group I told you that's not moving are the really high status popular kids who are creating the norms for your school. So really problematic. We can't, we can't figure this out quick enough. And I think it's because we have focused in a way, I think we have to bring it back. And like, in a sense,

like strip it down to its essence and its essence is, I think this is part of the human condition. And if you do that, then I think your interventions are going to look a bit different. And so I came out of a lab as a postdoc. Richard Trombley is like the highest cited Canadian psychologist in maybe one of the highest cited psychologists in the world.

like strip it down to its essence and its essence is, I think this is part of the human condition. And if you do that, then I think your interventions are going to look a bit different. And so I came out of a lab as a postdoc. Richard Trombley is like the highest cited Canadian psychologist in maybe one of the highest cited psychologists in the world.

I was his postdoc student and he taught me about how kids are socialized out of aggression. They're not socialized into it. Of course, there's going to be some socialization component to it for sure. you know, we're not saying that never exists, but the idea that most people hold is that kids are aggressive because they've been modeled, they've been influenced by aggressive models, right?

I was his postdoc student and he taught me about how kids are socialized out of aggression. They're not socialized into it. Of course, there's going to be some socialization component to it for sure. you know, we're not saying that never exists, but the idea that most people hold is that kids are aggressive because they've been modeled, they've been influenced by aggressive models, right?

Role models. But The research that I did with Richard and has been replicated worldwide and is longstanding, like we follow kids from birth all the way long into adulthood, is that most kids get socialized out of this. Now, I know it seems like I'm not being consistent because I really, really emphasized a lot about how popular bullies socialize the group.

Role models. But The research that I did with Richard and has been replicated worldwide and is longstanding, like we follow kids from birth all the way long into adulthood, is that most kids get socialized out of this. Now, I know it seems like I'm not being consistent because I really, really emphasized a lot about how popular bullies socialize the group.

But they came in probably with this need for dominance. They came in with a Machiavellian worldview. They came in with the tools that were needed in order to be effective in what they're doing. And so if our intervention programs focused a little bit more on that, maybe we'd be more successful. Does that make sense?

But they came in probably with this need for dominance. They came in with a Machiavellian worldview. They came in with the tools that were needed in order to be effective in what they're doing. And so if our intervention programs focused a little bit more on that, maybe we'd be more successful. Does that make sense?

they're psychopathic in some ways they have psychopathic traits um so they're callous and unemotional in a lot of ways they're very well um adjusted they're good at um at explaining their terrible behavior, at justifying it to themselves and to others. They're socially skilled. We used to think, based on Olweus' old study, that kids who bullied others were just destined to be

they're psychopathic in some ways they have psychopathic traits um so they're callous and unemotional in a lot of ways they're very well um adjusted they're good at um at explaining their terrible behavior, at justifying it to themselves and to others. They're socially skilled. We used to think, based on Olweus' old study, that kids who bullied others were just destined to be

So there's one that's pretty popular. It's called the Kiva program. It comes out of Norway, sorry, not Norway, Finland. And Christina Salmavalli is the one who put this together. It has quite a bit of success in Finland, but Finland's a small country. It's rollout in a bigger place like the UK or Canada or the United States may not be, is not as,

So there's one that's pretty popular. It's called the Kiva program. It comes out of Norway, sorry, not Norway, Finland. And Christina Salmavalli is the one who put this together. It has quite a bit of success in Finland, but Finland's a small country. It's rollout in a bigger place like the UK or Canada or the United States may not be, is not as,

It's not as successful in these contexts, what the preliminary data are suggesting. There's also the Olweus anti-bullying program. So Dan Olweus, we spoke about, the Scandinavian who did most of his studies in Norway. His early efforts had a 50% reduction in bullying, but they implicated every aspect of society. So everywhere you turn, you had the same lesson. So quite successful there.

It's not as successful in these contexts, what the preliminary data are suggesting. There's also the Olweus anti-bullying program. So Dan Olweus, we spoke about, the Scandinavian who did most of his studies in Norway. His early efforts had a 50% reduction in bullying, but they implicated every aspect of society. So everywhere you turn, you had the same lesson. So quite successful there.

not as successful in North America or in the UK.

not as successful in North America or in the UK.

The principles behind it. So Olweus is about creating awareness and involvement. And the Kiva component is really about engaging the bystanders, which is the way to go. So if you, because the source, you know, so bullying tends to happen in public. Bullying tends to be used in order to achieve and maintain power. And so it's the peer group that's affording you that power.

The principles behind it. So Olweus is about creating awareness and involvement. And the Kiva component is really about engaging the bystanders, which is the way to go. So if you, because the source, you know, so bullying tends to happen in public. Bullying tends to be used in order to achieve and maintain power. And so it's the peer group that's affording you that power.

They're the ones who are either going to accept what you're doing or they're going to reject what you're doing. So if you could get the peer group to reject what

They're the ones who are either going to accept what you're doing or they're going to reject what you're doing. So if you could get the peer group to reject what

So there's a few programs that are designed to increase moral engagement. And so there are interventions, bullying interventions, that specifically target moral disengagement and moral engagement. And they're not... Nothing is very efficacious, but they're doing something. There's a bit of a reduction. So I think that that should be applauded and replicated.

So there's a few programs that are designed to increase moral engagement. And so there are interventions, bullying interventions, that specifically target moral disengagement and moral engagement. And they're not... Nothing is very efficacious, but they're doing something. There's a bit of a reduction. So I think that that should be applauded and replicated.

The issue is that schools invest in this when they have a bullying problem. But for the most part, they're not consistent in their investment. So whatever we're going to do, we're going to have to do it early and then maintain it over time. Social emotional learning is really efficacious at just reducing aggression, which is part of bullying.

The issue is that schools invest in this when they have a bullying problem. But for the most part, they're not consistent in their investment. So whatever we're going to do, we're going to have to do it early and then maintain it over time. Social emotional learning is really efficacious at just reducing aggression, which is part of bullying.

But there's a huge anti-social emotional learning movement in the United States. I don't know if you know about that.

But there's a huge anti-social emotional learning movement in the United States. I don't know if you know about that.

You know, because you can't socialize kids in schools. That's the purview of the parents. Like, how dare you even try, you know, get that woke BS out of our schools, that sort of thing. And yet the evidence is pretty strong when it comes to social emotional learning. So there's a bit of a backlash against it. But I guess it depends what direction sustaining our efforts.

You know, because you can't socialize kids in schools. That's the purview of the parents. Like, how dare you even try, you know, get that woke BS out of our schools, that sort of thing. And yet the evidence is pretty strong when it comes to social emotional learning. So there's a bit of a backlash against it. But I guess it depends what direction sustaining our efforts.

Well, that's what they think it is, but it's not.

Well, that's what they think it is, but it's not.

Yeah, we're going to have to do something. I mean, again, this derails individuals' potential, not all. I mean, I don't want your listeners to have been bullied and worried about what this is going to mean for their memory and their health and all of those things in the future. I mean, it's not fait accompli. There's a lot of heterogeneity, as I keep saying, and I think hope is really important.

Yeah, we're going to have to do something. I mean, again, this derails individuals' potential, not all. I mean, I don't want your listeners to have been bullied and worried about what this is going to mean for their memory and their health and all of those things in the future. I mean, it's not fait accompli. There's a lot of heterogeneity, as I keep saying, and I think hope is really important.

Locked up in a sense or just have like a life of misery and cause harm to society. And yet what our studies have shown, and we've been following kids for over 16 years from the time they were 10 until now, they're 26. Actually, they're turning 27. And that's not the case. These are pretty successful individuals. They're successful because they have this blend of pro-social and anti-social.

Locked up in a sense or just have like a life of misery and cause harm to society. And yet what our studies have shown, and we've been following kids for over 16 years from the time they were 10 until now, they're 26. Actually, they're turning 27. And that's not the case. These are pretty successful individuals. They're successful because they have this blend of pro-social and anti-social.

One of the things I think is the saddest part, so beyond the fact that we have some few remaining kids who are very vulnerable, is that we could do a pretty good job at getting people to not actively bully others, but we can't get kids to include kids. And we started off talking about the need to belong, right?

One of the things I think is the saddest part, so beyond the fact that we have some few remaining kids who are very vulnerable, is that we could do a pretty good job at getting people to not actively bully others, but we can't get kids to include kids. And we started off talking about the need to belong, right?

And how, um, we didn't talk, we didn't use these words per se, but it's a fundamental human motivator. So at the end of the day, I can maybe get kids to not call you stupid or shove you in the locker or whatever it is. Right. Um, but I can't get them to include you. I can't get them to invite them, invite you to their birthday. I can't get them to sit beside you at lunch.

And how, um, we didn't talk, we didn't use these words per se, but it's a fundamental human motivator. So at the end of the day, I can maybe get kids to not call you stupid or shove you in the locker or whatever it is. Right. Um, but I can't get them to include you. I can't get them to invite them, invite you to their birthday. I can't get them to sit beside you at lunch.

And so we still have isolated victims who are not actively victimized. And that breaks my heart.

And so we still have isolated victims who are not actively victimized. And that breaks my heart.

So I think we might have been the first study to show this, but we did a study that was published in 2011 in Brain and Cognition, followed kids prospectively for three years. We looked at how memory was affected as a consequence of being bullied vis-a-vis cortisol, because too much cortisol is terrible for your brain. For your memory.

So I think we might have been the first study to show this, but we did a study that was published in 2011 in Brain and Cognition, followed kids prospectively for three years. We looked at how memory was affected as a consequence of being bullied vis-a-vis cortisol, because too much cortisol is terrible for your brain. For your memory.

And so we looked specifically at areas of the brain that are high in glucocorticoid receptor sites. So the hippocampus of the prefrontal cortex. And we found that kids who were bullied increased their cortisol that in turn affected their memory in the areas that we would expect it to be.

And so we looked specifically at areas of the brain that are high in glucocorticoid receptor sites. So the hippocampus of the prefrontal cortex. And we found that kids who were bullied increased their cortisol that in turn affected their memory in the areas that we would expect it to be.

Their verbal memory is not as good. Episodic memory can be still intact. But there is some issues also with episodic memory. Yeah, so it's just all of these things. We tend to think about kids not doing well at school as a function of them being bullied. So they disengage and then that influences their poor academic outcomes.

Their verbal memory is not as good. Episodic memory can be still intact. But there is some issues also with episodic memory. Yeah, so it's just all of these things. We tend to think about kids not doing well at school as a function of them being bullied. So they disengage and then that influences their poor academic outcomes.

But we argued in this paper, and it's been replicated, that kids who are bullied also legitimately have poorer memory as a consequence of that poor treatment.

But we argued in this paper, and it's been replicated, that kids who are bullied also legitimately have poorer memory as a consequence of that poor treatment.

So this is my passion is telling schools that if they want to invest in anti-bullying efforts, they should invest in supervision because it's one of the best ways of reducing bullying. It's not a program. It's just getting teachers out of the classroom and managing what's going on on the playground and in the hallways and the like.

So this is my passion is telling schools that if they want to invest in anti-bullying efforts, they should invest in supervision because it's one of the best ways of reducing bullying. It's not a program. It's just getting teachers out of the classroom and managing what's going on on the playground and in the hallways and the like.

So during the pandemic, there was, we did a study where we did a random design and keep in mind, kids were still in school. So we're not saying, of course, bullying should go down if they're not in school, they're not face-to-face, they're not interacting as much.

So during the pandemic, there was, we did a study where we did a random design and keep in mind, kids were still in school. So we're not saying, of course, bullying should go down if they're not in school, they're not face-to-face, they're not interacting as much.

But anyhow, so when they were still in school, we did this, we randomized kids into, we looked at their bullying rates before the pandemic and during the pandemic, and we found a 50% reduction in bullying. I've never seen that reduction in my lifetime.

But anyhow, so when they were still in school, we did this, we randomized kids into, we looked at their bullying rates before the pandemic and during the pandemic, and we found a 50% reduction in bullying. I've never seen that reduction in my lifetime.

Yeah, exactly. No. Run it back. Yeah. So this reduction came vis-a-vis increased supervision, which is something I've always been arguing for because we did a paper, we published a paper in 2010 called Places to Avoid, where we just chronicled all the places in the school where kids get bullied. And guess where they get bullied, Chris? Where there's no school, where there's no supervision.

Yeah, exactly. No. Run it back. Yeah. So this reduction came vis-a-vis increased supervision, which is something I've always been arguing for because we did a paper, we published a paper in 2010 called Places to Avoid, where we just chronicled all the places in the school where kids get bullied. And guess where they get bullied, Chris? Where there's no school, where there's no supervision.

So they get caught. Bullied on the playground, in the hallways, in the stairwell, you name it, right?

So they get caught. Bullied on the playground, in the hallways, in the stairwell, you name it, right?

They have, like I said, a lot of assets and competencies, so they don't get shunned. Like I've said, when it comes to the girl world, that being beautiful, you can get away with murder if you're attractive. And then on the boy side, there's a lot of things like if they're a good athlete and you're in a very athletic school, they can get away with murder.

They have, like I said, a lot of assets and competencies, so they don't get shunned. Like I've said, when it comes to the girl world, that being beautiful, you can get away with murder if you're attractive. And then on the boy side, there's a lot of things like if they're a good athlete and you're in a very athletic school, they can get away with murder.

So anyhow, so this 50% reduction had to do with they were so motivated to make sure kids had their masks on, that they were washing their hands, like they fully engaged in this, you know, virus mitigation strategies or these virus mitigation strategies that they inadvertently reduced bullying by 50%. So how about we supervise kids?

So anyhow, so this 50% reduction had to do with they were so motivated to make sure kids had their masks on, that they were washing their hands, like they fully engaged in this, you know, virus mitigation strategies or these virus mitigation strategies that they inadvertently reduced bullying by 50%. So how about we supervise kids?

Exactly. The issue is the unions are so strong. Teachers unions are so strong. So I'm a huge fan of teachers as well. They have very strong unions. Good for them. You know, nobody's going to fault them for advocating for themselves. But the unions just prohibit a lot of what we want to try and do. They just don't allow it. So I'll give you an example in Ontario.

Exactly. The issue is the unions are so strong. Teachers unions are so strong. So I'm a huge fan of teachers as well. They have very strong unions. Good for them. You know, nobody's going to fault them for advocating for themselves. But the unions just prohibit a lot of what we want to try and do. They just don't allow it. So I'll give you an example in Ontario.

High school teachers do not need to go into the hallways during school classroom transitions. That's in their collective agreement. Where does bullying take place in high schools? in the hallways during classroom transitions. So, I mean, you need to get them out of the class, greeting them at the door, just those little things.

High school teachers do not need to go into the hallways during school classroom transitions. That's in their collective agreement. Where does bullying take place in high schools? in the hallways during classroom transitions. So, I mean, you need to get them out of the class, greeting them at the door, just those little things.

There was this study, and I may have got this wrong, but I don't think I do. I remember this study from years ago where they were looking at why this particular school had low bullying rates. And it turns out that across the street, so it's an elementary school, across the street was a senior complex and there was a bench and they had the little old lady sitting on the bench.

There was this study, and I may have got this wrong, but I don't think I do. I remember this study from years ago where they were looking at why this particular school had low bullying rates. And it turns out that across the street, so it's an elementary school, across the street was a senior complex and there was a bench and they had the little old lady sitting on the bench.

And so the kids in the playground thought they were being spied on by the little old ladies. And those ladies were never going to get across the street in time

And so the kids in the playground thought they were being spied on by the little old ladies. And those ladies were never going to get across the street in time

to intervene in any capacity but just that was enough to reduce bullying rates wow make grandmothers great again that's what i love it there you go um what about so is that increased supervision the spatial planning intervention is that the same thing that would go hand in hand so thinking about like um you know areas that if you can't get supervision in um like we don't want

to intervene in any capacity but just that was enough to reduce bullying rates wow make grandmothers great again that's what i love it there you go um what about so is that increased supervision the spatial planning intervention is that the same thing that would go hand in hand so thinking about like um you know areas that if you can't get supervision in um like we don't want

scary spaces in a school right um kids are afraid of the bathrooms in schools because you can't get security cameras in there obviously you have to keep the door on them everybody has biological needs so yeah it so think that think when when designing schools thinking about school trips and stuff like that back of the bus pardon me

scary spaces in a school right um kids are afraid of the bathrooms in schools because you can't get security cameras in there obviously you have to keep the door on them everybody has biological needs so yeah it so think that think when when designing schools thinking about school trips and stuff like that back of the bus pardon me

So studies show that there's a genetic component. So parents who were bullied tend to have, their kids have a higher likelihood of being bullied. So beyond the genetic influence, there's also an environmental influence. I think a lot of it has to do with attributions. So let's just say something's ambiguous and you tell me about it. And I put my lens of how I was treated as a kid

So studies show that there's a genetic component. So parents who were bullied tend to have, their kids have a higher likelihood of being bullied. So beyond the genetic influence, there's also an environmental influence. I think a lot of it has to do with attributions. So let's just say something's ambiguous and you tell me about it. And I put my lens of how I was treated as a kid

I think that if you act the way some of these beautiful girls and athletic boys act without those features, the peer group's going to turn on you pretty quickly. And that's what you see with Nelson, right? So no tolerance for Nelson because Nelson doesn't have a lot going for him.

I think that if you act the way some of these beautiful girls and athletic boys act without those features, the peer group's going to turn on you pretty quickly. And that's what you see with Nelson, right? So no tolerance for Nelson because Nelson doesn't have a lot going for him.

and influence your perception of an ambiguous situation. Chris, they're being mean to you. You just don't realize it. They're bullying you, right? And yet it's ambiguous. So it can go left or it could go right. That's part of the mechanism of what's also going on. So in a sense, parents are creating a threat sensitivity in their child based on their experiences.

and influence your perception of an ambiguous situation. Chris, they're being mean to you. You just don't realize it. They're bullying you, right? And yet it's ambiguous. So it can go left or it could go right. That's part of the mechanism of what's also going on. So in a sense, parents are creating a threat sensitivity in their child based on their experiences.

We do that across all aspects of life, right? Like we're always about finding patterns, making inferences, that sort of thing. We tend to be our child's prefrontal cortex. Like we're, you know, their surrogate prefrontal cortex. I mean, that's what parenting is. The problem is, is in ambiguous situations, you don't want to have a hostile attribution.

We do that across all aspects of life, right? Like we're always about finding patterns, making inferences, that sort of thing. We tend to be our child's prefrontal cortex. Like we're, you know, their surrogate prefrontal cortex. I mean, that's what parenting is. The problem is, is in ambiguous situations, you don't want to have a hostile attribution.

And then when you see threat, you behave differently, right? So then maybe I've guarded myself. So now I'm seen as being aloof or arrogant. And then that influences an interaction. I mean, social interactions are pretty complicated. There's a lot of little things in the equation. So that's just one example of how it can happen.

And then when you see threat, you behave differently, right? So then maybe I've guarded myself. So now I'm seen as being aloof or arrogant. And then that influences an interaction. I mean, social interactions are pretty complicated. There's a lot of little things in the equation. So that's just one example of how it can happen.

So the interesting thing is there's a lot of polyvictimization. So if you're bullied in childhood, you're bullied in the workplace. So we showed a study where you see that across all areas. So intimate partner violence, dating violence, that sort of thing, workplace, peer relationships in adulthood. So it kind of there's some continuity there. But at the end of the day, we're using self-reports.

So the interesting thing is there's a lot of polyvictimization. So if you're bullied in childhood, you're bullied in the workplace. So we showed a study where you see that across all areas. So intimate partner violence, dating violence, that sort of thing, workplace, peer relationships in adulthood. So it kind of there's some continuity there. But at the end of the day, we're using self-reports.

So I'm not saying that these are not people who are, like, that their perception is not true. But there could be a bias in their perception. And, you know, again, if you're looking for evidence that you're not well-liked, if you're looking for evidence that people are going to treat you poorly, you're going to find the evidence. And so I think some of that is happening.

So I'm not saying that these are not people who are, like, that their perception is not true. But there could be a bias in their perception. And, you know, again, if you're looking for evidence that you're not well-liked, if you're looking for evidence that people are going to treat you poorly, you're going to find the evidence. And so I think some of that is happening.

I also think that there's probably some of the vulnerabilities that made somebody, that led to their victimization, not blaming victims at all. Never, ever would I suggest that you were treated poorly because of something that you did. You should be spared from oppression and humiliation, full stop.

I also think that there's probably some of the vulnerabilities that made somebody, that led to their victimization, not blaming victims at all. Never, ever would I suggest that you were treated poorly because of something that you did. You should be spared from oppression and humiliation, full stop.

But there's some cues that are being picked up by others that may still be there, that may still be present in adulthood.

But there's some cues that are being picked up by others that may still be there, that may still be present in adulthood.

There's evidence that they have better social skills. Their emotional intelligence is higher. I think that there probably is higher intelligence, just like a general intelligence, because to be able to manage and manipulate interpersonal relationships is quite complicated. To really understand the nuances, the politics of the playground, that takes some skill, some cognitive skills.

There's evidence that they have better social skills. Their emotional intelligence is higher. I think that there probably is higher intelligence, just like a general intelligence, because to be able to manage and manipulate interpersonal relationships is quite complicated. To really understand the nuances, the politics of the playground, that takes some skill, some cognitive skills.

And the single is hard because it reeks of victim blaming, right? And yet it's not what the intention is. In the ideal world, like, so a lot of times what we do when kids are really bullied, we change them schools. In the past, they were put into programs, social skills training programs. So it was all about the deficits of the victim instead of thinking about

And the single is hard because it reeks of victim blaming, right? And yet it's not what the intention is. In the ideal world, like, so a lot of times what we do when kids are really bullied, we change them schools. In the past, they were put into programs, social skills training programs. So it was all about the deficits of the victim instead of thinking about

their rights and how they should be allowed to exist in this world being the way they are, that really the onus should be on changing the perpetrator's behavior. And so I just need, I think we need to be cautious because, you know, this is a sensitive area. We don't want people to ever think that whatever they did, they deserve their poor treatment.

their rights and how they should be allowed to exist in this world being the way they are, that really the onus should be on changing the perpetrator's behavior. And so I just need, I think we need to be cautious because, you know, this is a sensitive area. We don't want people to ever think that whatever they did, they deserve their poor treatment.

But at the same time, there is something that some really terrible people are picking up on. And then it could be a lack of confidence. It could just be like, as I said, there's when I talked about if you were squeaky, you know, you probably would be left alone. But if you're not, you're going to be picked on again. We do know that there's victim shopping, that that exists, that kids do that.

But at the same time, there is something that some really terrible people are picking up on. And then it could be a lack of confidence. It could just be like, as I said, there's when I talked about if you were squeaky, you know, you probably would be left alone. But if you're not, you're going to be picked on again. We do know that there's victim shopping, that that exists, that kids do that.

Exactly. And so that's not been studied in adults, but I imagine that it probably will be, like, that that will exist, that there is going to be victim shopping.

Exactly. And so that's not been studied in adults, but I imagine that it probably will be, like, that that will exist, that there is going to be victim shopping.

No, you're awesome. No, you're awesome. Honestly, I've missed you forever.

No, you're awesome. No, you're awesome. Honestly, I've missed you forever.

Okay, we're both awesome.

Okay, we're both awesome.

It's not called Mean Girls because it's women. It's called Mean. Mean. Mean.

It's not called Mean Girls because it's women. It's called Mean. Mean. Mean.

So publishing for sure. I'm still on X. I'm still hanging on by a thread on X. So anyhow, they can find me there. I'm on LinkedIn. They can find me. Google Scholar, of course, that sort of thing. And then they can also find me on your podcast next year.

So publishing for sure. I'm still on X. I'm still hanging on by a thread on X. So anyhow, they can find me there. I'm on LinkedIn. They can find me. Google Scholar, of course, that sort of thing. And then they can also find me on your podcast next year.

And thanks for putting attention on this. Like a lot of people are hurt. So I think that you have a huge microphone and people are going to appreciate hearing what works, what doesn't work and my mispronunciations. They're going to appreciate that too. And they won't put it in the comments. I can't imagine that.

And thanks for putting attention on this. Like a lot of people are hurt. So I think that you have a huge microphone and people are going to appreciate hearing what works, what doesn't work and my mispronunciations. They're going to appreciate that too. And they won't put it in the comments. I can't imagine that.

So no, no, it's never existed.

So no, no, it's never existed.

Bye.

Bye.

And then after that, then people looked at... individual factors that were associated with it. Dan Ove has kind of led the charge. He's a Swede who was living in Norway at the time, conducted the largest study at the time, largest longitudinal study, but also intervention study, and then found a 50% reduction, but easy to do in Norway when you have everybody involved. It's a small country.

And then after that, then people looked at... individual factors that were associated with it. Dan Ove has kind of led the charge. He's a Swede who was living in Norway at the time, conducted the largest study at the time, largest longitudinal study, but also intervention study, and then found a 50% reduction, but easy to do in Norway when you have everybody involved. It's a small country.

Yes and no. So they could also be higher on both. So you would think in some ways they're agreeable, in other ways they're not. The lack of agreeableness comes with the entitlement that comes. Again, hold it. Wielding power is really bad for an individual's... I mean, it's good for their personal trajectory, but it's not good for society's trajectory.

Yes and no. So they could also be higher on both. So you would think in some ways they're agreeable, in other ways they're not. The lack of agreeableness comes with the entitlement that comes. Again, hold it. Wielding power is really bad for an individual's... I mean, it's good for their personal trajectory, but it's not good for society's trajectory.

I mean, you could just see leadership around the world and how corrupt it is. In a lot of ways, this is what I'm describing. You know, like a lot of people aren't fans of Donald Trump, but Donald Trump didn't get to where he is by just being purely... explicit in his power right he does have some assets and competencies he's got the prestige as well as that sort of dominance thing Yeah.

I mean, you could just see leadership around the world and how corrupt it is. In a lot of ways, this is what I'm describing. You know, like a lot of people aren't fans of Donald Trump, but Donald Trump didn't get to where he is by just being purely... explicit in his power right he does have some assets and competencies he's got the prestige as well as that sort of dominance thing Yeah.

You know what I mean? And then there's this other thing that we haven't really looked at and we should, I'm going to just move over out of the sun again. One of the things that I think we also need to get a handle on is like, um, people who are dirty fighters. I think that gives them power too, because, um, you know, anxiety is the root of human restraint. So, uh,

You know what I mean? And then there's this other thing that we haven't really looked at and we should, I'm going to just move over out of the sun again. One of the things that I think we also need to get a handle on is like, um, people who are dirty fighters. I think that gives them power too, because, um, you know, anxiety is the root of human restraint. So, uh,

At the end of the day, unless you're a psychopath, you are gonna pull back a bit. You are gonna be a little bit anxious about how people view you. You are gonna be worried about crossing a line, right? Unless again, you're wired different because you're a psychopath. And we tend to all have that.

At the end of the day, unless you're a psychopath, you are gonna pull back a bit. You are gonna be a little bit anxious about how people view you. You are gonna be worried about crossing a line, right? Unless again, you're wired different because you're a psychopath. And we tend to all have that.

But then there's this group that are just really high on psychopathic features, everyday sadism, and they don't care. And so they use aggression in a way that you and I would never use. And that then wields them power because it's just so off the rails and so atypical and quite scary. So you actively avoid them or you placate to them if you can avoid them. And then it gives them

But then there's this group that are just really high on psychopathic features, everyday sadism, and they don't care. And so they use aggression in a way that you and I would never use. And that then wields them power because it's just so off the rails and so atypical and quite scary. So you actively avoid them or you placate to them if you can avoid them. And then it gives them

this erroneous belief that they're respected when in fact they're feared.

this erroneous belief that they're respected when in fact they're feared.

So I don't know that. And I thought I knew the research literature pretty well. I think that that would be this idea that they come from broken homes would be studying more aggressive behavior. And, you know, keep in mind that when we're talking about bullying, we're talking about the end of that spectrum, right? So all bullying is aggressive behavior, but not all aggressive behavior is bullying.

So I don't know that. And I thought I knew the research literature pretty well. I think that that would be this idea that they come from broken homes would be studying more aggressive behavior. And, you know, keep in mind that when we're talking about bullying, we're talking about the end of that spectrum, right? So all bullying is aggressive behavior, but not all aggressive behavior is bullying.

Bullying happens in the context of a power imbalance.

Bullying happens in the context of a power imbalance.

dysfunctional homes where there's family discord and they're not intact who have a more higher they're higher on aggressive trajectories there is a bit of a genetic load attached to that too that people don't like to talk about but it does exist um but i don't know of any study off the top of my head where you see kids from broken homes more likely to bully others

dysfunctional homes where there's family discord and they're not intact who have a more higher they're higher on aggressive trajectories there is a bit of a genetic load attached to that too that people don't like to talk about but it does exist um but i don't know of any study off the top of my head where you see kids from broken homes more likely to bully others

And that is true, but they're talking about aggression and they're conflating it with bullying. And we really need to keep them separate because the evidence on bullying suggests that those who bully others have a different profile, right? So like, again, they're higher on these dark triad traits. But also those who are victimized, who are victims of bullying, don't fare well at all.

And that is true, but they're talking about aggression and they're conflating it with bullying. And we really need to keep them separate because the evidence on bullying suggests that those who bully others have a different profile, right? So like, again, they're higher on these dark triad traits. But also those who are victimized, who are victims of bullying, don't fare well at all.

And it's because of that power imbalance, because they can't fight back, because they can't defend themselves, because it happens over and over again. It places them at a huge disadvantage that really hurts them today and tomorrow. So I see this happening all the time in education where parents and students say, And even educators mistake aggression and bullying. They think they're the same thing.

And it's because of that power imbalance, because they can't fight back, because they can't defend themselves, because it happens over and over again. It places them at a huge disadvantage that really hurts them today and tomorrow. So I see this happening all the time in education where parents and students say, And even educators mistake aggression and bullying. They think they're the same thing.

If it happens once, it's typically not bullying. When it happens over and over again, and the reason it can happen over and over again is because there's a differential, there's a power differential, right?

If it happens once, it's typically not bullying. When it happens over and over again, and the reason it can happen over and over again is because there's a differential, there's a power differential, right?

So anyhow, so he looked at what happens to kids who bully, as they move forward. So identified boys in grade nine found that a large percentage of them were criminally, were involved in the criminal justice system by the time they were age 24. So that was kind of like the first, I think,

So anyhow, so he looked at what happens to kids who bully, as they move forward. So identified boys in grade nine found that a large percentage of them were criminally, were involved in the criminal justice system by the time they were age 24. So that was kind of like the first, I think,

I think we'd have to build two different meals. We would have to build that Nelson meal, right? And that kid would again, have a lot of, so they would be dysregulated. They probably have a lot of prefrontal dysfunction. They wouldn't be strategic. They would be reactive in their use of aggression. They would run amok of their school by just indiscriminately picking on everybody.

I think we'd have to build two different meals. We would have to build that Nelson meal, right? And that kid would again, have a lot of, so they would be dysregulated. They probably have a lot of prefrontal dysfunction. They wouldn't be strategic. They would be reactive in their use of aggression. They would run amok of their school by just indiscriminately picking on everybody.

They would be rejected, marginalized. Their future would not be that positive. But then if we built the other meal, it would be Kids who come in thinking they're it in a bag of chips because they've been told that they're it. They have a lot of assets and competencies, which I already mentioned. They are probably...

They would be rejected, marginalized. Their future would not be that positive. But then if we built the other meal, it would be Kids who come in thinking they're it in a bag of chips because they've been told that they're it. They have a lot of assets and competencies, which I already mentioned. They are probably...

a little bit lower on anxiety so they're able to treat people poorly and not worry about it too much. And then it just snowballs, right? Because then that accrues power, then that power then corrupts them, and then they want to usurp even more power by being a total asshole.

Sorry, I need to qualify. They're not total assholes. They're assholes to some people and good to others. Because if you're a complete jerk, you then alienate yourself and your power base also then gets corrupted and corrupted in a different way. Like meaning like you just can't hold on to your your power holding position.

Yeah, you need a base to help you out.

So bullies represent, so victims are about 30% of the population are victimized and 10% are bullied ruthlessly every single day. We're talking millions of kids as we speak were bullied today. around the world, hundreds of millions. So 30% of the population's bullied, 10% are ruthlessly bullied. And then in terms of those who bully others, it's a bit lower. It's probably around 8% bully others.

But, you know, most of it is relying on self-reports and most kids don't admit to doing this to others. If we use peer nominations, then you're getting closer to let's say 20 to 30 again, it would map on. But it really depends on the methodology.

well-conducted study in this area that was beyond just descriptives, although it is still descriptive to some extent. And then some people then focused on the broader context that it happens in. So not just at the individual level, but what do school-related factors look like? Kids are nested within schools, they're nested within their families. How do those interrelate?

So again, if we just focus on high status, high powered bullies, I guess the cost would be one that's borne by society and those in their lives more than at the individual level. And that kind of hurts to tell you that because I would want there to be a cost that dissuades them from acting this way.

But the truth of the matter is that they're a menace to those in their lives, not necessarily to themselves. And so I think one of the costs to themselves would be maybe in the end, they have more difficult relationships because it maintains their narcissism or it... influences their narcissistic traits. So it makes them more pronounced. They become more entitled.

And then that is challenging to be around.

So, I mean, that was like a really big focus back in the day. Like, could we identify kids who get bullied so that we could protect them? And obviously those who are not able to defend themselves are going to have a harder time. you know, think about this, like if, and we're talking again about the Nelson, and I know I keep making this distinction, but that's, they're really different animals.

It really looks different. So those kids come into grade one, let's just say, and they, they just pick on everybody. And you know, I pick on Tracy and she goes and tells the teacher right away. And then I pick on Chris and he doesn't tell anybody. And so that gets me coming back. Right. So one of the things that you see is that those that are willing to intervene on their behalf.

So meaning like saying, no, I'm not going to allow this to happen or tell somebody immediately, they tend to not get victimized again. Um, Now, that's not always the case. But, you know, as a general rule, saying no and sticking up for yourself is a good way to go. But not everybody has the capacity to do that. So I'm not asking people to do it because I recognize that's inherently unfair.

Kids who are shy and socially withdrawn tend to get picked on a little bit more. Kids who are girls who have ADHD, who are just a little bit atypical, neurodivergent kids get picked on a little bit more. Kids who don't have the cool stuff that everybody has can be picked on more. So if you're in a middle-class school and you're not wealthy, you're not in that economic bracket, you could be

And then my focus was always on the neurobiology of bullying. I was really interested in documenting how it hurt people, not just at that level where it could be easily dismissed, where people just say, ah, you know, you just need to be more resilient, suck it up. Yeah, she's sad, but she'll get over it.

more at risk. Kids who have poor social skills can get picked on. But then there's also kids who challenge those who wield power who can get picked on. So if you're a very attractive girl, let's say, and you move to a new school, God help you. It's just not going to go well. Those girls are going to eat you alive and make sure that you don't usurp their power.

If you're a very athletic boy and you come into a new school, I think you'll be OK because boys tend to tolerate hierarchies more than girls. So, you know, it's a little complicated. I know you maybe want just like a list of here are the things of kids that like put that places kids at risk. But I just can't give it to you because it's far more complicated than that.

I think bullying exploits that fundamental need to belong for sure. And that comes back to, remember we talked about their social skills, like how do they know that and how they know that so early for sure. And then bullying also exploits, well, I mean, it thwarts people's fundamental need to belong, but it's not always exploiting it.

So some kids are just better at it, at better picking up what your sensitivities are. And then, then just, treating you poorly as a consequence right like they just know which buttons to press um I don't know if we know really what that ingredient is so if we're still building our meal like

100%. And that's exactly what the research shows. So if I'm a bully, the kids that I bully and you're in my group, you're also bullying them. So they can't win, right? And then they become, in a sense, avoided. Not in a sense. They really do get avoided because nobody wants to be the next target. And I always think about like, it's like social singling, right?

Like we talk a lot about virtue singling now and everybody pretending they're good and look at me. But there's another singling that's happening. And it's about like, hey, you mess with me, you're going to be the next target. And this is what it looks like. So the kid's head really is on a stake for everybody to see. And then...

I wanted to show that, no, it affects them in a way that's profound and places them at risk for the rest of their lives. So that was kind of like my area of research. And since then, others have followed my There's not enough of us. I think that we need to be looking at the neurobiology a little bit more carefully. It's a profound psychosocial stressor.

when we talk, we talked about this already, but this is what I mean why we can't, we shouldn't mix up aggression with bullying because you can imagine how isolating that is to the kid who's been victimized. How do they get out of that? And then They tend to learn that the way to get out of that is then to act like the jerk who's doing it to them.

And now instead of having a prevalence rate of 30 percent bullying at your school, you have a prevalence rate in the 70s because nobody's fixed it.

Why? I go to schools where, and we do research across hundreds and hundreds of schools in Ontario, and some have low bullying rates, like 15%, and others have 70% bullying rates. And it really is about that. Is anybody holding them to account? And if you don't hold them to account, they will corrupt your environment.

Exactly. So think of it like, and I know you know this literature, but if you think about dominance, the dominance literature really tells us that when somebody wields power, we pay attention to them. We emulate them. And they don't pay attention to us. They are impervious to our signals of distress. They're not that interested in us, but we're profoundly interested in them.

And they also represent a really important socializing component in their environment. So they're socializing everybody who's paying attention to them in a way that we don't want them to be acting, right? Like we don't want this to be the model of our citizenship at our school, right?

Exactly. Yeah.

Yeah. So we did a really big meta-analysis and I was a little bit surprised because if you look at, like, you just are going to think that there's going to be ethnic differences, ethnic and racial differences, just expect it. And we didn't find that at all for perpetration and for bullying victimization? Not at all. I mean, there's a little bit. At the end of the day, it's about numeration.

So if we are at a school where it's primarily South Asian and we're the only two white kids, then we're a little bit vulnerable. But if you're the only two South Asian kids at a white school, you're vulnerable. So it really doesn't have to do with one race or ethnicity, or it really has to do with who's wielding power in your particular school.

So that's kind of like the evolution of bullying research. And then there's another side group that looks at it from an evolutionary perspective. And I know you had Tony Volk on before, and I do that a little bit too with Tony and the like. So yeah, I think we're getting there.

Yeah, I'm not too sure, but I do know that there's something going on there. I mean, we don't have the same history as the United States, right? We didn't have slavery and the like. Our immigrant profile looks different. But so in our studies, we don't see Black youth being bullied as much, but we do see Asian students and South Asian students being bullied more than Black students.

But we always see white students in our studies being bullied the most and bullying others the most, but they represent the majority in our country.

So, OK, so there has been a lot of research showing that kids who are overweight and obese are more likely to be bullied. And then we did the study that like blew my mind because it was not at all what I thought was going to be the case. So we follow kids prospectively for seven years. And what we found was that there was always an association between being bullied and being overweight.

but that kids gained weight as a consequence of being treated poorly. And that's what was driving the association primarily. So it's not like they were big and then got bullied. They got bullied and then became bigger and then got bullied. And then it just kind of spiraled. So really unfair.

But it makes sense because they become depressed and depression is associated with either overeating or undereating. So you're going to go one way or the other. And so to me, it fits. Like when I stood back and looked at it, I was like, oh, yeah, this makes sense. But this study needs to be replicated. It's only one study. We are the first to show it.

I'll be interesting to see if others show it as well.

Yeah, I don't know how that would work. Now, there is a little bit. So can we talk about skinny kids a little bit? So skinny boys are vulnerable. And especially skinny boys who are adolescents are very vulnerable because that's not perceived as masculine, which kind of goes hand in hand with being vulnerable, which is unfortunate.

And then thin girls get bullied, but because of intersexual competition. So like, even though like you're going to see it on both like so thin children and thin adolescents are at risk, but the mechanism is different for boys and girls.

Exactly. Exactly. And then there was a study that just came out that showed this curve. And it was looking at how weight status maps onto mental health. So this was published in JAMA. It just came out like a few months ago. And you see both ends. So you see the really thin kids being overly represented on having poor mental health. And then the overweight kids also having poor mental health.

why interventions don't work. So when we look at the big meta-analyses, there was one that was just redone. So you'd think like when you redo the meta-analysis on bullying intervention efficacy, that we would have improvements over the course of a decade, and we don't. So we're still only seeing about, at best, a 20% reduction in bullying. And that

More on the overweight side than the underweight side. But it really, I think that that could be explained through peer processes.

Um, boys are so obvious in their bullying. They're really like, they value dominance and submission. So they are going to put you in your place either physically or verbally, and you're going to know where you stand. If you have any flaw, Chris, they're going to tell you what it is, right? And it's going to be immediate and everybody's going to mock you. With girls, it's more circuitous.

Like we value inclusion and exclusion a little bit more than boys. So we use our relationships as a vehicle to cause harm. So we're more likely to use indirect aggression, which is also called social or relational aggression. So we will spread rumors about you. We'll exclude you from the peer group, those sorts of things.

We'll give you a once over and give you a death stare and mock and laugh at you. and and do that over and over again um we'll pretend we are friends with you but we're really just trying to elicit information from you to use it against you so we are think are more instrumental and boys are more reactive so we're proactive and boys are more reactive although they can also be proactive boys

So there's a little bit of cross-sex bullying. It mostly happens in elementary school. When they get to be in high school, they really just want to date each other. So they don't do it as much.

Yeah, exactly. And also, I think we've done a pretty good job at really making it clear that, you know, good boys don't pick on girls. So I think if you're doing that when you're 17, there's something pretty wrong about you.

So yeah, so you tend to not see it as, as much as they get older, but when they're little kids and they haven't got the script yet and they haven't, or the memo hasn't been received. Um, yeah, little boys can be little shits to girls, but little girls can be little shits to boys.

Yeah. It's interesting though. So the sex difference in, in the expression of bullying. Um, so a lot of times people want to say that there's no gender difference when it comes to indirect aggression, but they have not looked at it in terms of proportion. So they look at it in terms of means and it's true. Boys use it just as much as girls, but girls only use this.

And they tend to focus on this form of bullying early on. So we can see it in, um, Three-year-olds, four-year-olds, five-year-olds were, you know, you can't sit with me during circle time. They spread little rumors, you know, Chris pees his pants, that sort of thing. So they're pretty mean.

We did a couple studies where we looked at toddlers and we did direct observations and these girls were nasty.

I think needs, obviously it needs to improve because kids are so profoundly affected and so are teens and so are adults. So what is it that, why does this persist? Why can't we move that to be in a, like move it so that we have better rates, but better, I mean, lower rates of bullying and, and we're just not there. Like there was one I think there's one promising area.

I like how you described it. I think that really is what it is. They're practicing, they're honing a skill for the future. Kai Bjornquist proposed this heterotopic continuity model.

Yeah, of aggression. Fuck yeah. He talked about how, I mean, everybody eventually moves towards indirect aggression because it's the thing that society tolerates. But they don't, you know, we don't tolerate little girls punching little boys. We tolerate boys punching boys up until a certain point. But he also talked about how this happens.

And one of the things is that girls just have superior verbal and social skills early in life. And it continues across the lifespan. I know a lot of people are... turned off by sex difference research. But you can't call yourself a critical thinker if you don't think sex differences exist, because they certainly exist.

It's such a robust finding. It's been shown in so many labs around the world. So little girls started early.

They were four times more likely to bully others than those who didn't have power, who were not popular. And then it just kind of snowballed from there.

You haven't been exposed to the

A hundred percent. It's hard for some people to swallow it. As you know, I have a book coming out and that's basically the topic. It's about how our brain today represents hundreds of thousands of years of selection pressure. We may want to say that it's all socialization, but there's just no way. there's no way that we are where we are today without evolutionary forces at play.

We did this study that really speaks to this. So like we're talking a little bit about indirect aggression and we did a study where I was really interested in what the early origins of that were. And so we looked at two-year-olds And like, so not very advanced in their language, not very sophisticated. And we looked at this thing called love withdrawal.

They're looking at, again, power. I think that's really what you need to focus on because bullying is a systematic abuse of power. But the kids who were most and teens who were most impervious to bullying intervention programs were the ones who were the most popular in the school because they don't want to give up their power holding position.

So it's basically relational or indirect aggression, but a baby version where you are mad and you won't kiss your mom or you refuse to hug them, you turn your back, you know, give them a baby silent treatment. And we found that Close to 80% of toddlers did this, as reported by parents and by their preschool teachers, their daycare teachers. So we're pretty sophisticated social animals.

And it's interesting because like in that we talked about how there was also a relationship to how it's used between parents. And is it the case that, you know, parents think, well, I'm not hitting my spouse. I'm not yelling at my spouse, but I'm stonewalling them for two weeks straight. And that's like a better way of expressing it. And then the kids are picking that up.

Or it's like, what is the origin of this? And I don't know. Like, I'm not... Not here to answer that at this point. It was the first study that was done. It needs to be replicated. Everything needs to be replicated now. As you know, Chris, you got a good idea.

objectively successful but experientially miserable relationship like is that really the pinnacle of what you're expecting in the rest of your life exactly it's attachment theory right it's about this is the prototype and is this the prototype you want kids to have there was some studies done I think Sarah Jaffe is the one who did it like

maybe 15, 20 years ago, showing that it's actually really dangerous for kids to be in a home with an antisocial dad. Their outcomes are better than not having that antisocial dad in the home. So like, yeah, so keep families together, but at what cost? I mean, it really, you know, it's like everything. There's always going to be variance. There's always heterogeneity.

And we have to be thinking about these nuances because it's not going to be one size fits all. Yeah, having a dad who's, you know, modeling really inappropriate behavior. And I know people are going to say, well, what about moms? This is the study that looked at dads. But yeah, any of these role models being corrupt is a problem.

And that's also the peers, like having the leadership of your school be corrupt is not good for the health of your school.

I think there's a lot of different motivations, but I think primarily it's about the corrupting influence of power. So our longitudinal studies show that, okay, so there's a certain percentage of kids, probably about 10% of kids. And when I say kids, I mean anybody under 18. So there's a certain percentage of kids who just have sort of like emotional dysregulation. So prefrontal dysfunction.

And I'll just add this because I think we'd be remiss if we didn't. One of the challenges about families breaking up is that oftentimes women and children are left in poverty. And poverty is a huge stressor. Poverty changes the brains of children.

And so this is where like beyond the behavioral things that we're talking about and the socializing influence that we're talking about, if we could have kids and women not live in poverty, then... I think we would see different outcomes.

And if we were to hold that statistically, account for that statistically, I think that we would be making different decisions, but also we would hold a different viewpoint about this.

Yeah, I think those variances need to be separated, accounted for, or their interactions need to be examined. But at the end of the day, we don't want kids to be hurt. Obviously, that's never going to be good for a kid's life. And living in a home where everything is about love withdrawal and control, social control and the like, that's also not healthy.

Terrible. They are so unwell and they're so poorly treated. And especially right now with the current pandemic,

I get asked that question all the time. People want to think that it was because either I was a bully or I was bullied. But the truth of the matter was I was just really interested in popularity and popularity led me to bullying because the kids at my high school were the ones who bullied the most. I went ahead and looked at that for my dissertation and found that

Okay, so we'll talk about lesbian, gay, bisexual students are bullied at higher rates than heterosexual students. But again, the context matters. So if you're in, let's say, a performing arts school where there's an over-representation, you're not going to be as bullied. It gets back to enumeration, that sort of thing, and also what the culture of the school is.

But on average, they're not treated well. They're bullied at higher rates for sure. And trans youth are particularly vulnerable. And also their mental health is off the chart. Like their poor mental health is higher than anything I've seen in my career. So we have this really massive study where we're following hundreds of thousands of kids in Ontario.

And those who identify as trans are not doing well.

So ADHD, conduct disorder, that sort of thing. The Nelsons, Nelson from the Simpsons. So that's a great representation of who I mean. Our past studies and our past intervention efforts have focused on Nelson or the Nelsons of the world. But they are so different and they don't really represent the true bully out there. So when you look at it, what happens is that kids have

I think the temporal precedence has not been established because it's been so politically challenging to study this. And this is always a problem when politics interfere with science and knowledge, then you can't get to truth. I think that you know that we both know that this is a problem.

And also too, it's frustrating to see the exception always being hailed as truth, right? Like these are, they are very sensational stories. They elicit a lot of reaction. They get circulated a lot. They get stuck in your brain because of how salient they are. And that then is weaponized against this group that's quite diverse, right?

And that's a problem because we're really causing harm to individuals who don't fit that minority that is hailed as being the boogeyman. And I, it, yeah, it, I feel for trans kids. I very much do. I think that they're in a really tough spot and, um, and we really need to be thinking about this. These are young people. So, um,

Ultimately, you know, society should be judged on how well they care for their most vulnerable. And I don't think our report card's very good in this area.

That's precisely the mechanism. They think that what they're doing is justified, that the person deserves their poor treatment. And if they don't think it, they will convince themselves that they do. So they may have reacted impulsively and then justified it using moral disengagement principles, or they had already, you know, They've already said this person's less.

They've already dehumanized the individual. And then that has given them license to treat them poorly. Moral disengagement, I think, is the most important theory that explains how everyday people become bullies, how everyday people can treat others poorly and still sleep with a good conscience. Because really, it's about making our egregious acts more palatable.

assets and competencies that the peer group values. They're good looking, they're good athletes, they're whatever. Every school has a different context or a different culture, I mean. And so those kids then are afforded power. And then that power is then abused. So then they use aggressive means to maintain hegemony. And, but also to have achieved it.

So there's a variety of different cognitive strategies, but basically you're trying to make your shitty behavior seem justified. Okay. So you may dehumanize the victim. You may blame the victim. You may diffuse responsibility. You may make advantageous comparisons. So like, listen, I just called her stupid. Chris is the one who shoved her in the locker. Like, come on, not even comparable.

So those are like, we use these, these mechanisms, these cognitive mechanisms to, to live with ourselves for the crummy behavior that we did. The other thing that people who bully others tend to do is they tend to not pick up on the cues of distress because But in fairness, part of it is because the power has corrupted them, so they just don't see it. Their brain actually works differently.

But the other part of it is that it's so embarrassing and humiliating to be bullied that a lot of times, and it's done so publicly, it really is typically a public event, that kids then hide their distress. So the one cue that is needed for the public, the bystanders to come in and support me is what I'm suppressing.

And it's the one cue that maybe will get that bully to be morally engaged instead of disengaged is the thing that I'm suppressing. So it's, you know, it gets really ugly.

I think in the moment, so there is some evidence that yes, but I think in the moment is when they have an empathetic gap, because that is when the moral disengagement is taking place. And that's when they feel fully justified. So maybe when they look back at it with fresh eyes and none of the emotional valence attached to it, they're able to be a bit more objective.

You pointed at one thing, though, and I just wanted to say, because if I'm not plugging my studies, what's the point of even being here? That we did a study of 1700 teachers and we asked them, like, why would you intervene on behalf of a kid who's been bullied? Like, what are the cues? Like, what is it that's going to that's going to motivate you to do something? And they said distress.

Distress was the number one reason that they would intervene on behalf of kids who are bullied and teens who are bullied. And as I just said, they're suppressing distress. So we're counting on adults to lead in this area, and they're not able to pick up the one cue that they need to to realize that something nefarious is going on.

So first of all, bullying goes down as kids get older. So it is a lot more atypical in high school students than it is in elementary and middle school students.

It really has to do about like there's so many different factors, but part of it is going to be social skills, where their brain is, their brain development, social development, moral development, cognitive development, all those things interacting. And there's also like they're vying for limited resources.

So there's a little bit of resource scarcity, which I mispronounced as scarity twice the last time I was on your show. Didn't get bullied over that, Chris. So that's okay. So there's also a bit of resource scarcity that's involved. So all of these things interact well. They're just not that socially skilled. In our intervention programs, we never talk about power.

So like the beauty gets you there first and then it corrupts you. And then it just escalates into you being a complete jerk and then ruling the school. And then, uh, in a sense, like creating the norms of the school, because these kids are so powerful and so salient, um, that everybody pays attention to them and everybody emulates what they're doing. And then next thing you know, you have, um,

We never talk about how power corrupts. We never talk about how when you're afforded power, how it behooves you to be a good citizen, to not abuse your power. So, you know, we're not expecting kids are going to have these lessons. At the end of the day, we're animals, right? We're primates. This is what all primates do. So we're socializing kids out of this.

They're not necessarily socialized into it. Some of it is maintained through socialization, as we've spoken about. Like I've said this over and over again. But I also think that we're coming to the school with these deficits to begin with.

It's precisely what you said, everything, all of the above. And you and I talked about it in the last time we spoke too, is it really is like the hierarchies are pretty pronounced in elementary and high school. They're maintaining their power holding position coercively, but also using pro-social means. So it really has to do with that. So how do you maintain power? Well,

You abuse those below you. You scare them. But then you also charm them. So like it's complicated. It's, again, this blending of pro-social and anti-social behavior. And then there's lack of autonomy. You spoke a little bit about that before. And it really is that. Like they don't have the same autonomy that you and I have. You know, as friends in adulthood, you treat me poorly.

I don't have to worry about seeing you again at school. So we're done. I can move on. Whereas in high school and elementary school, you are going to see them again and you're going to have to manage that. And there's just some kids that are just more dominant than others, right? And they're imposing their will on others. And not everybody's appreciating that.

But not everybody has the same skill set to be able to impose their will on others. There's little primates put together in same age bands. And then that same age band is then mixed with other age bands. And we wonder why it happens.

It affects all aspects of their life. It affects everything in the immediate and then the long term. It affects their mental health, their physical health, their academic achievement, their sense of self. It changes who they are. Fundamentally, and not only that, it lasts a lifetime.

So studies that have followed individuals 30, 50 years show that you can identify somebody who was bullied at 10 and they still have higher mental health rates at 50. And at 60, it's a scar that never heals. Now, some, of course, will have it, will get by. But for the most part, you won't. And the reason why you won't is that it's so salient. It's so disruptive.

the entire environment has been corrupted, not just the individual.

It serves a function for you to never forget. So it's a social pain that's seared in your amygdala and you're never going to get past it. You may be better, you may get better for sure.

But if you think about it, so like if you and I did a thought experiment right now, and I know you said you were bullied as a child, and you think about those moments, you're probably gonna still have a visceral reaction. And that has an evolutionary significance. That not belonging is so salient. It's how we got ahead as a human species.

It's how we collaborate that the neural alarm is massive when you don't. And so your brain is going to never forget it and neither will your body.

So when we look at, um, you and I talked about this last time about 5-HTT-LPR, the serotonin transporter gene. So, and obviously like genetics have advanced epigenetics is kind of like the new thing they're doing full scans. Um, full gene scans and the like. So there's a few people looking at the genetic vulnerability and there is a little bit that exists.

That's 90% of kids who bully others.

I can't tell you what specific genes are involved. I don't think that's the way to go. It doesn't make sense to me. I think that was the way to go 20 years ago. That's how we thought about it, but we don't think about it that way today. I do think that there are other things that like, obviously genes influence everything.

So the way a person sees the world is going to also be attached to how they interpret events. Some people are just more sensitive to cues of belonging and not belonging. So they're high on rejection sensitivity. Some individuals are more anxious. So if you think about it from a biological perspective, their limbic system is more active, their prefrontal cortex, in a sense.

gets hijacked by their limbic system and it won't let them calm down. It won't let them be rational. It won't let them see things, um, as more nuanced. So all of these individual differences affect how a person deals with bullying. I think it's really important. And that's the bulk of my work is showing that, um,

these this kind of heterogeneity because it's really important because some kids do better than others and then the kids who do better are kind of seen as the poster child of like this is what you should aspire to be the fact that you're not doing as well as becky is because there's something wrong with you chris if you just weren't so whiny if you just weren't so um

squeaky, whatever you want to call it, then you could be okay. Just suck it up and you'll be okay. So I'm really trying to chronicle this. There's a lot of individual differences, but there really is a difference in how they see the world sometimes. But again, back to that temporal priority, is it the case that They're treated poorly and then it changes their worldview.

There are some. There are definitely some kind leaders. I make a distinction in my research between implicit and explicit power. So implicit power is the type of power you achieve by having competencies and assets that the peer group values and you don't abuse your power. And then explicit power is the type of power that you achieve through coercive means.

Or do they have a worldview that's different that then causes them to be treated poorly? The peer group picks up on and then it moves forward. Our studies typically show symptoms-driven effects, meaning that kids who have poor mental health are picked on. Then that makes their mental health poorer. And if you've ever been around depressed people, you can kind of see what's happening.

They seem aloof. They don't seem interested. They don't have a lot of motivation. They're not a lot of fun. I'm not expecting them to be. I'm not saying that at all. But the peer group doesn't quite like that. So then they pick up on those cues of being unwell and then pick on these kids and then make them even more unwell. So...

And then there's going to be some kids who arrive at school ready to get at her, and then they're treated so poorly, and then they become unwell, and then their worldview changes.

I love how you said that. And it's kind of like, okay, so if we think about it, so the biology has changed in some way, right? So we know, and I'll just pick on the hypothalamic pituitary adrenal axis, the HPA axis, which is our stress response system. I've done a lot of work on that. We've published longitudinal studies. We know what's happening when it comes to HPA dysfunction and bullying.

So kids who are bullied tend to either overproduce or underproduce cortisol. And in time, they underproduce cortisol. So when you're faced with an acute stressor, your HPA axis reacts, right? Like you ramp up a flight or fight reaction. I mean, obviously it's a little bit more complicated than that, but But, you know, I'm just giving a basic mechanism.

And then 20 minutes later, cortisol has spiked. And so that's what we're measuring. We're measuring cortisol and how it's coming up. And so your first time you're getting bullied, Chris, your cortisol is going to be high, high, high, high. And then as I follow you for the next three years, eventually one thing I'm going to see is that your cortisol is going to be low. And it's an adaptive process.

So there's a, you know, the body is set on for homeostasis. It's set to like keep you healthy. doing well, surviving, thriving as best as you can, even in difficult environments. So bringing down your cortisol is a good way of doing it. And it could be brought down because your glucocorticoid receptor sites are now damaged from your brain being bathed in cortisol.

There's other mechanisms that also explain this. But the point of the matter is, is now we have low cortisol. And so your reaction to future stressors looks different now. And not just the stressors of bullying, the stressors across your life. And so now we have changed the way a person is interacting and behaving in their world as a function of being stressed. terrible to them.

And that bothers me because these behavioral and biological changes set them up for future risk. So they're more likely to be at risk for post-traumatic stress disorder. So now, Chris, you've been bullied as a kid. long-standing bullying issue.

And it elicits fear and compliance and submission. And then kids who bully others tend to be this melange of implicit and explicit power. So they do have some redeeming qualities sometimes. They can be pro-social. They tend to be strategic. They're interpersonally exploitative, like that sort of thing exists. So Machiavellian.

Now your HBA has down-regulated itself as a protective factor and you get into a horrific car accident when you're 22 years old and you end up with PTSD that's debilitating and it causes you significant harm for the next five years. If you hadn't had that experience, PTSD probably wouldn't have been in your future. And that's the stuff that we're looking at and we're working on.

So risk is exacerbated in the future because of the relationships that our grade three children have or our 10th graders are having. So it really behooves us to step it up in terms of intervention and prevention, right?

So the past 25 years, we've studied this in earnest. It's been primarily correlational. I mean, it's going to be hard to do experiments on bullying when you think about it. I mean, it's just not going to work, really. But we've looked at it primarily from a correlational point of view. The first thing was just to sort of document the prevalence and the like.

So I focused on not overcoming it. And I know that sounds horrible, but that's kind of like, because I'm trying to get people motivated to change this. So I've really focused on the ones who aren't doing well. I don't think we have a good grasp of those who have done well, just like we don't really understand the true positive leaders.

So if I, you know, if you have young scientists that are listening and they're just starting their career, I want to know more about those who were bullied and seemed to do okay. I wanted, and maybe they had a protective gene. Maybe there was something about the way, like maybe the other protective, it might not even have been biological protective mechanism.

It could have been their family was so amazing. Older brother. You know, like there's going to be so many things in the, but that would be great because historically we haven't focused on positive side of things. We've really focused on deficits and what's negative. So I want to know that.

And I think that comes down to therapy, like cognitive behavioral therapy would be really good. Can I mention another thing that kind of makes me... So like in my book, I really mentioned that like at the end of the day, we don't know what the long-term implications are. Like, well, we have an idea that it's not going to be good. We don't know if this can be fixed, if we can change this...

how bullying gets under the skin to confer a risk. You know, I imagine we can because we're quite plastic. There's a lot of plasticity. One of the things that we're doing is we're trying to reduce bullying in earnest. And what studies are showing, and we just showed it, we still need to publish it, but it's just replicating what's been shown across Europe.

There's this healthy context paradox where if you reduce bullying, the few kids left in the school who are bullied have worse mental outcomes. So in a sense, we've now made some kids even more vulnerable by reducing bullying. Wow. So what do you think that's about? Because I know you're a smart guy and you usually have the answer.

But we don't have a good grasp on who those just pure implicit power people are. But they exist. We just don't know enough about them. So the kids who are pro-social and only pro-social, but extremely powerful within their school community.

So I think there's going to be a little bit of that. And that part hasn't, to my knowledge, hasn't been really looked at. But I love your answer. So I will tell you the answer to that because we have the data and I'll be able to know that. I think it comes back to also attributions. If there's a lot of us being picked on, the attribution is, these guys are just jerks.

Like, it's not about me because I'm not the only one. But if I'm the only one or there's only a few of us, There's something fundamentally wrong with us. That is, I think, the attribution error that occurs. So we're trying our best to reduce bullying. And in doing so, we're causing harm to a certain segment of the population. So now I'm going to school after school.

Tomorrow I'm presenting to 170 principals in Quebec. But I do this all the time and I present the data and I say, here are the rates in your school. We've done a great job at reducing bullying in your school. Can we get your school counselors to now recognize that you have kids that are even more vulnerable than they were before? Isn't that a bit messed up?

So if you end up with worse mental health outcomes, it feels a little bit like... It's not what you would ever have expected, right? You would just think like, In a sense, we're doing God's work by reducing bullying. And yet the precious few who are left behind are doing worse than we've ever seen.

I hate that and I get asked that all the time. It triggers me. So I always think like, well, okay, so you think you've done well, but let's just say I do a lot of stuff in sports because I'm a high performance soccer coach. I coach Team Ontario for the U17 girls and our Canada Games team. But in any event, the reason I mentioned that because it's a really easy way to explain this.

So you are now an Olympian, Chris, right? You've won two Olympic gold medals in swimming. And you say, you know, the reason I'm an Olympian is because I was bullied. It made me stronger. It made me more resilient. And I always say, what if you were supposed to win 15 medals? Like, so, you know, you don't know what your top performance is.

You don't know where you're supposed to be and where, how far you can excel. You think that it didn't do anything to you, but there's going to be a biological component that definitely did that. Now, there are always exceptions to the rules. So I would be open-minded to maybe some people do better as a consequence of that. I'm struck by how often people don't want to change their experience.

what's the personality profile of a typical bully have you got have you done ocean or hexico or anything else on them have they got a star sign that we need to look out for yeah i so right now we're focusing more on the the dark triad and looking at how that unfolds and it's what you would expect they're really high on narcissism they're high on machiavellianism they're high on uh

If they could go back, they don't want to change their experience because they think it's what made them who they are today. But you could never know what your life would look like without that because you've experienced it and it can't be erased.

Exactly. Yeah.

And also, too, it's about making meaning from really terrible circumstances. Like we all want to be able to explain why that terrible thing happened to us and make sense of it. So it makes sense to me. The people that I work with, so I'm a professor of counseling psychology. I supervise counseling psychologists of the future.

The clients that they are managing, which are numerous, more than I would be able to do as a single clinician, these individuals are not doing well. They... My students are overwhelmingly seeing individuals who had poor interpersonal relationships, either with peers or with a caregiver. A lot of people are not forgetting these experiences.

Not at all.

20% reduction in bullying is what we're doing at our best. And we're doing it in younger kids and not in high school. It becomes entrenched as it gets... So it goes down, but the few victims that are left are, in a sense, lifetime victims. So it becomes entrenched. We're not doing a good job at all. When we use a whole school approach, we're better. When we have multiple components, we're better.

When we involved younger kids, we're better. I think that... that group I told you that's not moving are the really high status popular kids who are creating the norms for your school. So really problematic. We can't, we can't figure this out quick enough. And I think it's because we have focused in a way, I think we have to bring it back. And like, in a sense,

like strip it down to its essence and its essence is, I think this is part of the human condition. And if you do that, then I think your interventions are going to look a bit different. And so I came out of a lab as a postdoc. Richard Trombley is like the highest cited Canadian psychologist in maybe one of the highest cited psychologists in the world.

I was his postdoc student and he taught me about how kids are socialized out of aggression. They're not socialized into it. Of course, there's going to be some socialization component to it for sure. you know, we're not saying that never exists, but the idea that most people hold is that kids are aggressive because they've been modeled, they've been influenced by aggressive models, right?

Role models. But The research that I did with Richard and has been replicated worldwide and is longstanding, like we follow kids from birth all the way long into adulthood, is that most kids get socialized out of this. Now, I know it seems like I'm not being consistent because I really, really emphasized a lot about how popular bullies socialize the group.

But they came in probably with this need for dominance. They came in with a Machiavellian worldview. They came in with the tools that were needed in order to be effective in what they're doing. And so if our intervention programs focused a little bit more on that, maybe we'd be more successful. Does that make sense?

they're psychopathic in some ways they have psychopathic traits um so they're callous and unemotional in a lot of ways they're very well um adjusted they're good at um at explaining their terrible behavior, at justifying it to themselves and to others. They're socially skilled. We used to think, based on Olweus' old study, that kids who bullied others were just destined to be

So there's one that's pretty popular. It's called the Kiva program. It comes out of Norway, sorry, not Norway, Finland. And Christina Salmavalli is the one who put this together. It has quite a bit of success in Finland, but Finland's a small country. It's rollout in a bigger place like the UK or Canada or the United States may not be, is not as,

It's not as successful in these contexts, what the preliminary data are suggesting. There's also the Olweus anti-bullying program. So Dan Olweus, we spoke about, the Scandinavian who did most of his studies in Norway. His early efforts had a 50% reduction in bullying, but they implicated every aspect of society. So everywhere you turn, you had the same lesson. So quite successful there.

not as successful in North America or in the UK.

The principles behind it. So Olweus is about creating awareness and involvement. And the Kiva component is really about engaging the bystanders, which is the way to go. So if you, because the source, you know, so bullying tends to happen in public. Bullying tends to be used in order to achieve and maintain power. And so it's the peer group that's affording you that power.

They're the ones who are either going to accept what you're doing or they're going to reject what you're doing. So if you could get the peer group to reject what

So there's a few programs that are designed to increase moral engagement. And so there are interventions, bullying interventions, that specifically target moral disengagement and moral engagement. And they're not... Nothing is very efficacious, but they're doing something. There's a bit of a reduction. So I think that that should be applauded and replicated.

The issue is that schools invest in this when they have a bullying problem. But for the most part, they're not consistent in their investment. So whatever we're going to do, we're going to have to do it early and then maintain it over time. Social emotional learning is really efficacious at just reducing aggression, which is part of bullying.

But there's a huge anti-social emotional learning movement in the United States. I don't know if you know about that.

You know, because you can't socialize kids in schools. That's the purview of the parents. Like, how dare you even try, you know, get that woke BS out of our schools, that sort of thing. And yet the evidence is pretty strong when it comes to social emotional learning. So there's a bit of a backlash against it. But I guess it depends what direction sustaining our efforts.

Well, that's what they think it is, but it's not.

Yeah, we're going to have to do something. I mean, again, this derails individuals' potential, not all. I mean, I don't want your listeners to have been bullied and worried about what this is going to mean for their memory and their health and all of those things in the future. I mean, it's not fait accompli. There's a lot of heterogeneity, as I keep saying, and I think hope is really important.

Locked up in a sense or just have like a life of misery and cause harm to society. And yet what our studies have shown, and we've been following kids for over 16 years from the time they were 10 until now, they're 26. Actually, they're turning 27. And that's not the case. These are pretty successful individuals. They're successful because they have this blend of pro-social and anti-social.

One of the things I think is the saddest part, so beyond the fact that we have some few remaining kids who are very vulnerable, is that we could do a pretty good job at getting people to not actively bully others, but we can't get kids to include kids. And we started off talking about the need to belong, right?

And how, um, we didn't talk, we didn't use these words per se, but it's a fundamental human motivator. So at the end of the day, I can maybe get kids to not call you stupid or shove you in the locker or whatever it is. Right. Um, but I can't get them to include you. I can't get them to invite them, invite you to their birthday. I can't get them to sit beside you at lunch.

And so we still have isolated victims who are not actively victimized. And that breaks my heart.

So I think we might have been the first study to show this, but we did a study that was published in 2011 in Brain and Cognition, followed kids prospectively for three years. We looked at how memory was affected as a consequence of being bullied vis-a-vis cortisol, because too much cortisol is terrible for your brain. For your memory.

And so we looked specifically at areas of the brain that are high in glucocorticoid receptor sites. So the hippocampus of the prefrontal cortex. And we found that kids who were bullied increased their cortisol that in turn affected their memory in the areas that we would expect it to be.

Their verbal memory is not as good. Episodic memory can be still intact. But there is some issues also with episodic memory. Yeah, so it's just all of these things. We tend to think about kids not doing well at school as a function of them being bullied. So they disengage and then that influences their poor academic outcomes.

But we argued in this paper, and it's been replicated, that kids who are bullied also legitimately have poorer memory as a consequence of that poor treatment.

So this is my passion is telling schools that if they want to invest in anti-bullying efforts, they should invest in supervision because it's one of the best ways of reducing bullying. It's not a program. It's just getting teachers out of the classroom and managing what's going on on the playground and in the hallways and the like.

So during the pandemic, there was, we did a study where we did a random design and keep in mind, kids were still in school. So we're not saying, of course, bullying should go down if they're not in school, they're not face-to-face, they're not interacting as much.

But anyhow, so when they were still in school, we did this, we randomized kids into, we looked at their bullying rates before the pandemic and during the pandemic, and we found a 50% reduction in bullying. I've never seen that reduction in my lifetime.

Yeah, exactly. No. Run it back. Yeah. So this reduction came vis-a-vis increased supervision, which is something I've always been arguing for because we did a paper, we published a paper in 2010 called Places to Avoid, where we just chronicled all the places in the school where kids get bullied. And guess where they get bullied, Chris? Where there's no school, where there's no supervision.

So they get caught. Bullied on the playground, in the hallways, in the stairwell, you name it, right?

They have, like I said, a lot of assets and competencies, so they don't get shunned. Like I've said, when it comes to the girl world, that being beautiful, you can get away with murder if you're attractive. And then on the boy side, there's a lot of things like if they're a good athlete and you're in a very athletic school, they can get away with murder.

So anyhow, so this 50% reduction had to do with they were so motivated to make sure kids had their masks on, that they were washing their hands, like they fully engaged in this, you know, virus mitigation strategies or these virus mitigation strategies that they inadvertently reduced bullying by 50%. So how about we supervise kids?

Exactly. The issue is the unions are so strong. Teachers unions are so strong. So I'm a huge fan of teachers as well. They have very strong unions. Good for them. You know, nobody's going to fault them for advocating for themselves. But the unions just prohibit a lot of what we want to try and do. They just don't allow it. So I'll give you an example in Ontario.

High school teachers do not need to go into the hallways during school classroom transitions. That's in their collective agreement. Where does bullying take place in high schools? in the hallways during classroom transitions. So, I mean, you need to get them out of the class, greeting them at the door, just those little things.

There was this study, and I may have got this wrong, but I don't think I do. I remember this study from years ago where they were looking at why this particular school had low bullying rates. And it turns out that across the street, so it's an elementary school, across the street was a senior complex and there was a bench and they had the little old lady sitting on the bench.

And so the kids in the playground thought they were being spied on by the little old ladies. And those ladies were never going to get across the street in time

to intervene in any capacity but just that was enough to reduce bullying rates wow make grandmothers great again that's what i love it there you go um what about so is that increased supervision the spatial planning intervention is that the same thing that would go hand in hand so thinking about like um you know areas that if you can't get supervision in um like we don't want

scary spaces in a school right um kids are afraid of the bathrooms in schools because you can't get security cameras in there obviously you have to keep the door on them everybody has biological needs so yeah it so think that think when when designing schools thinking about school trips and stuff like that back of the bus pardon me

So studies show that there's a genetic component. So parents who were bullied tend to have, their kids have a higher likelihood of being bullied. So beyond the genetic influence, there's also an environmental influence. I think a lot of it has to do with attributions. So let's just say something's ambiguous and you tell me about it. And I put my lens of how I was treated as a kid

I think that if you act the way some of these beautiful girls and athletic boys act without those features, the peer group's going to turn on you pretty quickly. And that's what you see with Nelson, right? So no tolerance for Nelson because Nelson doesn't have a lot going for him.

and influence your perception of an ambiguous situation. Chris, they're being mean to you. You just don't realize it. They're bullying you, right? And yet it's ambiguous. So it can go left or it could go right. That's part of the mechanism of what's also going on. So in a sense, parents are creating a threat sensitivity in their child based on their experiences.

We do that across all aspects of life, right? Like we're always about finding patterns, making inferences, that sort of thing. We tend to be our child's prefrontal cortex. Like we're, you know, their surrogate prefrontal cortex. I mean, that's what parenting is. The problem is, is in ambiguous situations, you don't want to have a hostile attribution.

And then when you see threat, you behave differently, right? So then maybe I've guarded myself. So now I'm seen as being aloof or arrogant. And then that influences an interaction. I mean, social interactions are pretty complicated. There's a lot of little things in the equation. So that's just one example of how it can happen.

So the interesting thing is there's a lot of polyvictimization. So if you're bullied in childhood, you're bullied in the workplace. So we showed a study where you see that across all areas. So intimate partner violence, dating violence, that sort of thing, workplace, peer relationships in adulthood. So it kind of there's some continuity there. But at the end of the day, we're using self-reports.

So I'm not saying that these are not people who are, like, that their perception is not true. But there could be a bias in their perception. And, you know, again, if you're looking for evidence that you're not well-liked, if you're looking for evidence that people are going to treat you poorly, you're going to find the evidence. And so I think some of that is happening.

I also think that there's probably some of the vulnerabilities that made somebody, that led to their victimization, not blaming victims at all. Never, ever would I suggest that you were treated poorly because of something that you did. You should be spared from oppression and humiliation, full stop.

But there's some cues that are being picked up by others that may still be there, that may still be present in adulthood.

There's evidence that they have better social skills. Their emotional intelligence is higher. I think that there probably is higher intelligence, just like a general intelligence, because to be able to manage and manipulate interpersonal relationships is quite complicated. To really understand the nuances, the politics of the playground, that takes some skill, some cognitive skills.

And the single is hard because it reeks of victim blaming, right? And yet it's not what the intention is. In the ideal world, like, so a lot of times what we do when kids are really bullied, we change them schools. In the past, they were put into programs, social skills training programs. So it was all about the deficits of the victim instead of thinking about

their rights and how they should be allowed to exist in this world being the way they are, that really the onus should be on changing the perpetrator's behavior. And so I just need, I think we need to be cautious because, you know, this is a sensitive area. We don't want people to ever think that whatever they did, they deserve their poor treatment.

But at the same time, there is something that some really terrible people are picking up on. And then it could be a lack of confidence. It could just be like, as I said, there's when I talked about if you were squeaky, you know, you probably would be left alone. But if you're not, you're going to be picked on again. We do know that there's victim shopping, that that exists, that kids do that.

Exactly. And so that's not been studied in adults, but I imagine that it probably will be, like, that that will exist, that there is going to be victim shopping.

No, you're awesome. No, you're awesome. Honestly, I've missed you forever.

Okay, we're both awesome.

It's not called Mean Girls because it's women. It's called Mean. Mean. Mean.

So publishing for sure. I'm still on X. I'm still hanging on by a thread on X. So anyhow, they can find me there. I'm on LinkedIn. They can find me. Google Scholar, of course, that sort of thing. And then they can also find me on your podcast next year.

And thanks for putting attention on this. Like a lot of people are hurt. So I think that you have a huge microphone and people are going to appreciate hearing what works, what doesn't work and my mispronunciations. They're going to appreciate that too. And they won't put it in the comments. I can't imagine that.

So no, no, it's never existed.

Bye.

And then after that, then people looked at... individual factors that were associated with it. Dan Ove has kind of led the charge. He's a Swede who was living in Norway at the time, conducted the largest study at the time, largest longitudinal study, but also intervention study, and then found a 50% reduction, but easy to do in Norway when you have everybody involved. It's a small country.

Yes and no. So they could also be higher on both. So you would think in some ways they're agreeable, in other ways they're not. The lack of agreeableness comes with the entitlement that comes. Again, hold it. Wielding power is really bad for an individual's... I mean, it's good for their personal trajectory, but it's not good for society's trajectory.

I mean, you could just see leadership around the world and how corrupt it is. In a lot of ways, this is what I'm describing. You know, like a lot of people aren't fans of Donald Trump, but Donald Trump didn't get to where he is by just being purely... explicit in his power right he does have some assets and competencies he's got the prestige as well as that sort of dominance thing Yeah.

You know what I mean? And then there's this other thing that we haven't really looked at and we should, I'm going to just move over out of the sun again. One of the things that I think we also need to get a handle on is like, um, people who are dirty fighters. I think that gives them power too, because, um, you know, anxiety is the root of human restraint. So, uh,