Emily Saliers

It's interesting, though, what you say, Abby, about talking to Glennon about this and straight privilege. I have a crystallized fear deep in me because my wife does not identify as a lesbian. And she never had a girlfriend. And it's terrifying to me that she would go back to a man, even though we're married and committed and everything, but those fears are so primal.

And that fear comes from not feeling good enough as a gay person. And she respects the fact that she's had straight privilege, but she identifies as queer, but not lesbian. And so she would love whomever she loved. And it's, I can't get out of that fear yet. You know, I don't have much time left. I feel like sometimes to get, get out of that fear. That's how deep they are.

Because you can't discount the influence of the church. Yeah. The greatest woman that ever lived was a virgin. And then you carry on from there.

Yeah. The influence, the power of these systemic structures that affect us, the church, social norms, binary thinking... Fear about, you know, fluidity in so many ways. You take a step back and look at the power of those forces on us. It's very, very, that's why we need community. Because together, you know, together we can navigate that, tackle that and affirm that.

our validity as human beings, our dignity. So that's why we need community.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, there was a time when identity politics became very, very important, you know, as a way to separate from the powers that be. And I also think that, and this is just my opinion, but in order to enter a sexual relationship, It's not really a choice.

If somebody of the same sex makes you feel good or anybody makes you feel good or you have a connection through your body, you don't really go, okay, now I'm going to like this. I think the choice is more if you decide to enter into a committed relationship or Can anybody elaborate on that?

Yes. I remember when Ani came out as bisexual or whatever she would term it now, and like the lesbian community just lost their shit because it's like... that we only have so many of us and we've lost one of our own. You know, I remember that, you know, I didn't feel that way, of course, but I understand that, that fear. And so identity, we're so wrapped up in identity.

And I think it's probably a primal thing, like knowing your place in the tribe and are you going to go out and pick the berries or are you going to like draw on the cave wall or what? You know what I mean? You have to be able to recognize your place in your tribe or else you're fucked.

So I think a lot of this like focus on, it's not all because the more I say this and think about it as I say it, but there is a lot to do with where do I belong in a tribe? And it's very, very compromising and fear inducing to think that you, either you don't belong or you've lost someone who you thought belonged, you know, goes way, way back in that part of your brain.

Yeah. I was going to say, Glennon, if you were trying to have an introductory course into feeling feelings... I would have picked like Barry Manilow instead of the Indigo Girls because we're like so intense, you know, and emotional.

Thank you.

��� cle cle cle cleacacacacacacacacacacacacacacacacacacacacacacacacacacacacac cle Athlet cle cleacacacacacacacacacacacacacac cle Athletacac cle cleacacacacacacacacacac cle Athletacacacacacacacacacacacacacacacacacacacac cleac cleac cleac cleac cleac cleac cle cleac cle cleac cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cleaceniaceniaceni famili famili famili famili famili famili famili famili famili famili famili familiacacaireaceniaceniaceniaceniaceniaceniaceniaceniaceniaceniaceniaceniaceniaceniaceniaceniaceniaceniaceniaceniaceniaceniaceniaceniaceniaceniacenieniket

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Well, I mean, it just would have been like a gentler introduction into real feelings. That's curious to me.

to hear about y'all's experience too, if you don't mind. Oh, with sobriety?

Oh my God. Okay, I don't like the word God. I don't like any type of language that tries to describe what this thing is that's beyond humanity. comprehension, any of that. So there's not really a word for what I believe, but I believe in, it's more like a, it's more like a, a Holy spirit.

And it's, I believe in science and I believe in, uh, the presence of something that is not of the physical world that's in relationship to the physical world. And to all of us, I believe in regeneration. and, you know, energy isn't lost. And I just feel like there's an incomprehensible relationship between energy, spirituality, and the physical world, which is so awesome.

And I know that I got help outside of myself, not only my community and people, to get sober and to any struggle I have in my life. I know that when I engage in the relationship, With this spirit, I'm able to get help. I'm able to get wisdom.

And I have almost an unshakable belief, except if I'm sick, if I get COVID or something, or what happens in the world, or if children are shot in schools, then I'm like, I don't know if I really believe this. And then I just have to get back centered. But so that's my belief. There is something. It is more powerful, wise, incomprehensible than any of us can know.

And it's not because I have to believe it. It's because it has shown itself to me in my life and in other people's lives.

I feel the same way about y'all. I feel the same exact way. You're just like your lights in the world. And you're so human, your fallibilities and your vulnerabilities. But you just keep shining y'all's lights. And it's moving to me. It's not my false eyelashes. I feel moved. It's like, thank you for that.

Oh God, don't ask her that question.

We have to promise to be like completely transparent in this interview because I am such a dork. And Amy is so cool, you know, like, so that's like, wow. But there is that... there is the tier system in school where you just like, if you even get to hang out at the lunchroom with someone in an older, you're flying, you're high, you know?

Cause it's like, look at me with an older kid in the upper grade. Yeah. But we, yeah, we're pretty close in age though. Like Amy almost catches up to me, but not quite. And then, uh, I've always had a respect for her wisdom and her vision for things, how to make things happen. And, And also, if you see me crying and I may cry emotionally, but. I just tried false eyelashes. No, you did not.

Yes, I did.

And my eye is, yeah, it's true. And we'll get to the fractal later.

No, I went. I'm going to tell you, I went to a professional and who advised me where to go was none other than Carrie, Amy's life partner. And actually, she's really great. But, you know, I'm a redhead and I'm compromised and I am sensitive. And I don't know. I don't know what happened, but, uh, so I have blonde eyelashes, you know? Right. And I, I like to wear mascara.

All things being relative, that's probably true. True. Yeah, so I like to wear mascara. I don't like my eyelashes to be invisible. But putting on mascara is a drag. And then I started to watch... I watch a lot of women's college basketball. And I started to notice that all those young women... Are wearing false eyelashes. Yes. But those gals can carry them like an inch long.

So I was like, I can't do that. But that's cool. That looks good to me. So I went and Carrie gave me this recommendation. And at first I got the mascara look. Okay. Which is very not, you know, they have to place single eyelashes on each lash.

We'll talk about you later then.

Oh, yeah. So anyway, this next time I was like, I said to her, let's just up the game a little. What can you offer that's not like the basketball players, but that's a little bit fuller? And now I... My eye is killing me and I just cry all the time out of my left eye.

I agree with everything you've said. And because through the Internet or through community groups that can focus on queer community, it's I think maybe people who are coming out don't have to deal so much with the self-hatred and self-homophobia that I'll speak for my own self that I still deal with.

You know, because I think the more you have a community out there, especially if you have access, and I'm not talking about kids in a rural or, you know, super evangelical Christian or any kind of household that makes it as difficult as it ever was. But for kids who have, like where I live, it's pretty progressive and there's, you know, queer alliances and even kids who are...

you know, lean more towards heteronormative are belong to these groups. And so there's more of a sense of, I have a place where I can be when I was coming up, all I heard was you're different. You'll never be validated. Uh, what are we going to do with this band? When we got signed, we can't like, you know, sell their sexuality as women, uh, And all these things.

And, you know, I still am unraveling that. So I think that's a difference, too. Like some of the young people I know who come out are just they're so overjoyed and happy and they didn't have to fight this dark internal battle.