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Erin Moriarty

Appearances

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

1001.476

Do you have any question in your mind that Jane Dorotick killed her husband? No. Absolutely none. It's prosecutor Bonnie Howard Regan's job to convince a judge there's enough evidence to take Jane Dorotick to trial.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

1027.503

According to the prosecutor, Bob Dorotek never went out for a jog on that cool, wet Sunday afternoon in February. Instead, she says, he was killed in his own bedroom.

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A Deadly Family Secret

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Investigators say they found minute drops of blood all over the bedroom.

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A Deadly Family Secret

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It was after Bob was killed that investigators believe he was dressed in his jogging clothes.

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A Deadly Family Secret

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This would be his normal route? Remember how Jane says she was driving along this road, searching for her missing husband when it got dark? I thought, well, maybe he fell off the side of the road. Prosecutor Howard Regan says that's when Jane dumped Bob's body here. The tire impressions at the scene match Jane's truck.

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A Deadly Family Secret

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Investigators never found a weapon or any blood-stained clothing.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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The prosecutor claims Jane disposed of the evidence at this shopping center, where on the day Bob disappeared, a friend saw her driving to an area behind the stores.

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A Deadly Family Secret

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But the most damaging evidence by far, the one piece that seems to directly connect Jane Dorotek to the murder, is a syringe found in Jane's bathroom.

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A Deadly Family Secret

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But this syringe had Jane's fingerprint in Bob's blood. How can you explain that?

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A Deadly Family Secret

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At this point in the court proceedings, Jane is not allowed to respond to the evidence.

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A Deadly Family Secret

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So we gave her a chance to try explaining some things, like the blood found in her own bedroom. Do you have any other explanation of how that blood spatter could have gotten there? Not really. On the ceiling, on the window, on the walls? No. What about the large amount of blood that was on the other side of the mattress? I don't know. Jane can come up with only one explanation.

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A Deadly Family Secret

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So do you still think that that blood could have come from a nosebleed? I think some of it could have come from it.

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A Deadly Family Secret

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And what about pieces of a rope? Much like the rope found around Bob's neck that were on Jane's porch and in her house.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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Yet there is evidence someone cleaned up. Bob's blood was found on a bottle of cleaning fluid and there was wet carpeting with blood stains underneath. Kerry, who else would kill Bob there and then clean up afterwards?

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A Deadly Family Secret

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Another problem. Stories told to investigators by Bob's former co-workers.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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Jim Goudge remembers a chilling conversation he once had with Bob.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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Chuck Piper says Bob told him the same thing.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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After three days of testimony, there are still a lot of people who insist Jane simply couldn't have killed Bob.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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Nevertheless, the judge rules that Jane should stand trial.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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But no one is prepared for what the judge does next.

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A Deadly Family Secret

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The judge suddenly raises Jane's bail to $3 million, one of the highest ever for a spousal murder in this country.

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A Deadly Family Secret

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Unable to raise that kind of money, Jane goes back to jail until her trial. Isn't it going to be very hard for the jury to believe that somebody else killed Bob, then cleaned up, and then moved his body somewhere else?

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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Because who else would do that?

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A Deadly Family Secret

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Next, someone else is accused of killing Bob.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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Bob Dortek's murder took more than a life. It destroyed his entire family.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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Accused of his murder is his wife of 30 years, Jane, who now sits in county jail.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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Jane's daughter, Claire, has been forced to put the family ranch on the market.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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It's very hard on her. It's very hard. But what concerns Claire and her mother even more is that neither Alex nor Nick have come to see their mother in jail. Does that make you sad? Yes, of course.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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You are very sure about your mom's innocence, but it doesn't seem like your brothers are quite as sure. Why do they have doubts?

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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Jane's sons won't say why they've stayed away, but the evidence in this case is damaging. It points to a killer who knew the victim, who had a reason to kill him, who also had a reason to clean up the crime scene afterwards. But Jane's attorney says she's not the only one who fits that description. Who does he say killed Bob Dorotek?

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

152.78

The beauty and drama of these foothills northeast of San Diego no longer give Jane Dorotek any comfort.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

1540.16

Claire Dorotek, Jane and Bob's 25-year-old daughter. It is a shocking development that Kerry Steigerwald and his associate, attorney Cole Casey, say they intend to prove in court. When did you first start thinking that it wasn't Jane at all, but her daughter?

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A Deadly Family Secret

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that it had to be someone who knew Bob. Had to be.

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A Deadly Family Secret

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Because of the blood in the bedroom?

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A Deadly Family Secret

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And Steigerwald claims Claire had a reason to kill her father.

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A Deadly Family Secret

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He could be a jerk sometimes. In an earlier interview, Claire said her relationship with her father had been strained.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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But was Claire angry enough to kill her own father? As proof, the attorney points to a letter an irate Claire wrote to her father. I know that I have been resented by you always. It doesn't have to be more than she just didn't like her father to kill him in that brutal manner.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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As Steigerwald sees it, Claire, who is devoted to her horses, became enraged when her father threatened to sell them.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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I'm just gonna pound this up. Jane's life has not been the same since her 55-year-old husband Bob disappeared.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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Your history of betrayal of trust, lack of respect, and vicious threats cannot ever be forgotten. The letter was written about a year before Bob Dorotek was killed. So what do you think happened?

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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Prosecutor Bonnie Howard Regan confirms the letter exists, but reads it very differently.

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A Deadly Family Secret

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But she says Claire wasn't home the weekend Bob was murdered.

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A Deadly Family Secret

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Claire has always said she was in Long Beach, two hours away. Claire was with me Saturday night. And her Aunt Bonnie backs her story. Is there any possibility in your mind that Claire might have killed her dad?

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A Deadly Family Secret

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Steigerwald says that Claire changed details of how she got to Long Beach. Even what she did when she got there.

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A Deadly Family Secret

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Do you think it's at all possible that Claire could have hurt her dad? I absolutely don't. But if Jane really believes that, why would she allow her attorney to point to her daughter as the killer, the daughter Jane clearly loves?

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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I trust Carrie. I hope we get what we need. but this is pointing a finger at someone in your own family. You know, the prosecution has already gone there, so it's not news to them. But is this just a trial strategy? Do you honestly believe that Claire killed her dad, or is this just a way to confuse the jurors and to get Jane off?

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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As for Claire, suddenly the center of a media frenzy. She's not speaking to anyone. I have no further comments.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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Are you at all concerned that the jury will wonder about a woman who would allow herself to be defended by pointing the finger at her daughter? Could that work against the two of you?

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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Bob, an engineer and avid jogger, says Jane. Very competitive, very methodical and logical. Went out for a run on a rainy Sunday afternoon and never returned. That's our wedding picture. Jane had lived almost half her life with Bob.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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Coming up... Claire, can we ask you some questions? Will Claire take the stand? And the prosecution's surprise witnesses against Jane Dorotek.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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Jane Doretic's murder trial is unlike any other in San Diego County.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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Jane's the one on trial.

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A Deadly Family Secret

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But she's not the only one accused.

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A Deadly Family Secret

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The defense will try to convince jurors that it was Claire who murdered Bob Dorotek in his bedroom.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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But it's a tricky maneuver. Do you run the risk that the jury could hear this and think that both Jane and Claire killed Bob Dorotek? and convict Jane and then have Claire later charged.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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Prosecutor Bonnie Howard Regan begins with the physical evidence.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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The syringe with Jane's fingerprint in Bob's blood and the tire tracks from Jane's truck in the area where Bob Dorotek's body was found.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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Faced with such damaging evidence, the defense has only one option, to put serious doubt in the minds of the jurors. First, by proving Jane wasn't physically capable of committing murder. And then, by convincing the jurors, Claire is.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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But right away, Carrie Steigerwald runs into trouble. Ms. Claire Dortek, please step forward. With a jury outside of the court, Claire takes the fifth.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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which means jurors will never see or hear from Claire and never be told why. Ms.

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A Deadly Family Secret

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The most Carrie Steigerwald can say is that Claire is unavailable. You are excused at this time. Isn't the jury going to wonder? You've been talking about Claire, and the jury never sees her and never knows why she doesn't appear.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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The defense can still let the jurors hear from Claire through the angry letter she wrote to her father one year before he was killed.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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At the same time, the defense wants the jury to believe that Jane couldn't have murdered her husband.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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But there's contrary evidence in court. All jurors are again present. And it comes from the most unlikely source. Ms. Howard Regan, you may call your next witness. Jane's own sons. Alex?

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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And they damaged Jane's case even further.

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A Deadly Family Secret

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They look like happy kids, too.

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A Deadly Family Secret

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it is suddenly clear why Jane's sons never came to see her in jail.

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A Deadly Family Secret

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Would you say that's been the most damaging testimony?

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A Deadly Family Secret

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They broke my heart, you know, they just broke my heart. Kerry thinks it's too risky for Jane to take the stand.

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A Deadly Family Secret

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Claire, then 24 years old and the only one still living at home, was away the weekend her dad disappeared.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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He's worried about prosecution questions that he knows Jane can't answer.

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A Deadly Family Secret

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I really can't. I'm sorry. But there are questions the prosecution can't answer either. Here at the location where Bob's body was dumped, footprints were found, but none of them were Jane's. And there's a witness who says she saw Bob alive on this driveway the day he disappeared. The defense hopes those questions will raise reasonable doubt as to who really killed Bob Dorotek.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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After deliberating for four days, the jury returns with a verdict.

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A Deadly Family Secret

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What made you feel that during the trial?

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A Deadly Family Secret

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Do you have any statements you'd like to make about the verdict? It's a terrible defeat for Carrie Steigerwald, who hoped the jury would believe an angry daughter could have committed the crime.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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What if, in fact, she killed her husband? And there was nothing you could do.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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Congratulations. Prosecutor Bonnie Howard Regan.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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One of those boys, Jane's son Alex, was in court for the verdict.

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A Deadly Family Secret

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Did Alex want to see his mom convicted?

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A Deadly Family Secret

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As Jane remembers it, it was a busy day at her ranch with thoroughbred horses to feed and expectant mares to watch.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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Since we last aired this broadcast, neither Alex nor his brother Nick have spoken with or seen their mother.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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The verdict officially ends speculation that Claire, not her mom, killed Bob Dorotek. But it doesn't answer all the questions.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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Weeks later, when Jane is sentenced, Judge Joan Weber wonders out loud.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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It's hard to keep going. In a noisy, crowded jail, Jane Dorotek is all alone.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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Just before she left the house, Jane says, she saw Bob in the living room.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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Three hours later, when Jane returned to the house, she says she was surprised that Bob hadn't returned. Were you concerned at that point?

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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This is the same route, Jane says, she took that late afternoon to search for Bob, driving up and down the steep hill where he sometimes ran. This kind of scares me just looking out in a car.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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Deputy James Blackman was first on the scene.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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As police began a search and rescue, concerned friends and family gathered at the Dorotek House.

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A Deadly Family Secret

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Claire had spent the weekend visiting Jane's sister, Bonnie.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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And then, in the pre-dawn hours of February 14th, Deputy Blackman turned into this driveway.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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On Valentine's Day morning, Jane learned that the man she had been married to for 30 years was dead. They said they thought he had been hit by a car. The hardest part was telling her children.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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Jane has such a big heart. Marilyn Ryan is Jane's younger sister.

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A Deadly Family Secret

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As Jane and her family began coping with the news... I got there a little after 7 in the morning. Police Detective Rick Empson was called in.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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What Empson found was much worse.

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A Deadly Family Secret

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Bob Dorotek had been severely bludgeoned and strangled.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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But the biggest shock was yet to come. Three days after Bob's body was found, the police made an arrest.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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Next on 48 Hours.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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In a matter of days, 53-year-old Jane Dorotek went from well-paid health care executive and wife to widow to accused murderer.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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She's being held on an unusually high $2 million bail. But today, she hopes a judge will listen to the people who are here to support her, her children.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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Even her boss.

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A Deadly Family Secret

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the judge agrees to reduce her bail.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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And after 23 days in jail, Jane goes home.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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Two months after getting out of jail and still awaiting her trial.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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She's leaving the ranch she shared with her husband until he was brutally murdered.

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A Deadly Family Secret

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Helping are her sister Bonnie Long and two of her children. I think we have all the boxes up here. Nick, her youngest, a construction worker and competitive snowboarder. And Claire. Where are the boxes? A personal trainer and horsewoman who is also in school getting her master's degree in psychology. Jane's oldest son, Alex, is away in law school. Good horses. Is there...

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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Any question in your mind whether your mom's innocent or not. Any question at all.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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Jane and Bob got married in 1970. She was a nurse. He was an engineer working for Lockheed. How would you describe Bob?

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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Despite the demands of her job as an executive, Jane's horse operation grew.

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A Deadly Family Secret

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And the money that went into the horses became a source of contention between Jane and Bob.

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A Deadly Family Secret

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This and other strains in their marriage led Jane and Bob to split up in 1997.

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A Deadly Family Secret

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Then a year later, they reconciled.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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Jane and Bob had been back together as a couple a year and a half when he was killed.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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Then why, Jane?

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A Deadly Family Secret

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According to police, the motive was money. Jane's money. They contend her marriage was in trouble again. The prosecution is going to say you killed your husband because you thought you'd have to pay a large part of your income if you got divorced.

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A Deadly Family Secret

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But more important than motive, police say, is evidence. Evidence that shows Bob wasn't killed here where his body was found. His body was dumped here after he was killed. And where was he killed? In his own bedroom.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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What first led Detective Rick Empson to suspect Jane was seeing a piece of rope hanging on the porch.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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Investigators asked if they could search the house.

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A Deadly Family Secret

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And when they got to the master bedroom, they found some blood. This is the master bedroom. This is the alleged crime scene. Actually, police say a search of the room revealed massive amounts of blood. Massive?

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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But any blood, Jane says, is perfectly understandable.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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The case against Jane.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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Is there any way that you can adequately describe what you've been going through for the last 5 months.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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Free on bail but living under suspicion Jane door to camp believe the sudden turn her life has taken.

48 Hours

A Deadly Family Secret

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Jane is about to find out. At her preliminary hearing, Jane and her family will see and hear for the first time the evidence against her. Carrie has said this is going to be your worst nightmare. Carrie is Carrie Steigerwald, Jane's attorney.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

1016.946

Back on Wagon Wheel Road, puzzled investigators were combing the crime scene for clues. Do you think that you were a suspect from the very beginning?

48 Hours

Friends for Life

1032.311

Nine days after Brian's murder, police interrogated Robin on videotape.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

1043.254

And if Robin was involved, investigators tried to pressure Cissy into giving up her best friend.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

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Cissy, like Robin, talked to investigators without a lawyer present.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

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When she realized she was a suspect, Cissy hired attorney Shane Hinch.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

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Hinch and Robbins' lawyer, Glenn Van Voorhis, were convinced the police had it all wrong. That's why both attorneys agreed to take their cases for no fee.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

1116.104

Robin's attorney believes Brian's philandering ways may have cost him his life. He may have gone to this remote area for a secret sexual encounter with Fannie Dietz or another woman.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

1144.75

Soon after Brian's death, Robin told police about Fannie, his married mistress. And when police contacted Fannie, she gave them explicit emails between the two of them.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

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In one email, Fannie wrote to Brian, that is kind of cool doing it in the daylight where somebody could see us. And is there any evidence that he might have been having sex?

48 Hours

Friends for Life

1182.941

And if anyone wanted Brian dead, say the women's attorneys... It was Fannie's husband, Shane Dietz.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

1224.346

What brought Brian Davis to the end of this lonely dirt road in Lake Charles in June of 2009? And who shot him in the back and left him to die by his car? From the moment Sheriff Tony Mancuso and investigators arrived at the scene, nothing seemed to add up. I mean, does it make any sense that somebody would come here and change a tire? No, not at all.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

1252.898

Did Brian drive his Honda here, planning to meet someone? Not likely, says his mistress, Fannie Dietz. She told police Brian would never take his beloved Honda down a road like this for any reason.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

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Then there was that strange crime scene. Brian's wallet, laptop, cell phone, GPS, and gun were all gone, but other valuables were left behind, and that convinced police this was no robbery.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

1314.927

Another odd clue, that jacked up car, as if Brian had stopped to fix a flat tire. But there's no evidence the tire was even punctured.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

1338.516

But the clue that police say convinced them the women were lying came later, when police looked at their cell phone records.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

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All cell phones operate by sending a radio wave signal to the closest cell tower. That signal pings off that tower, which usually covers several square miles. In her interview with police, Sissy said she was at her home on the day Brian went missing with her cell phone from 11 a.m. until 3.30 p.m., waiting for Robin to pick her up.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

1390.077

Was Sissy telling the truth when she said that she was at her home and never left?

48 Hours

Friends for Life

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So Sissy says she's always here. Always. Waiting for Robin to come pick her up.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

1404.156

According to prosecutor Rick Bryant, any calls Cissy made from her home would have most likely pinged off this tower, just 300 yards from her home. But in fact, where do you believe she was?

48 Hours

Friends for Life

1424.38

The Hackberry Tower is 11 miles from Cissy's house, but it's also the tower closest to the crime scene. If Sissy were in fact at home all afternoon, like she said, was there any way that her cell phone could be pinging off a tower all the way down here or a tower all the way over here?

48 Hours

Friends for Life

1445.179

And police believe, contrary to Robin and Sissy's story, that Brian never switched cars, never got into his Honda the day he died. Sissy had borrowed it the night before, as she told police.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

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And police believe she still had the car on Monday. According to Sheriff Mancuso, it was Cissy who drove the Honda to the remote location on Wagon Wheel Drive and lured Brian out there on the pretext of changing a tire.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

1499.042

When Robin and Brian arrived at the scene, the sheriff says one or both of the women shot and killed him. And why would Robin want her husband dead? The oldest reason in the world. Money. More than $600,000 in insurance payouts.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

1525.862

Investigators discovered that Robin had recently lost her job. Her love for video poker had racked up gambling debts, and she and Brian were on the verge of losing their home. Robin says those alleged motives are nonsense.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

1551.183

And then, what is Cissy's motive for murder?

48 Hours

Friends for Life

1564.569

Finally, after a six-month investigation, police formally charged Robin Davis and Cissy Saltzman with murder. What did this case become known to all of you?

48 Hours

Friends for Life

1583.035

The movie is a tale of two women friends.

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Friends for Life

1587.417

And a murder. But in this case, the women's lawyers say it's like Thelma and Louise in only one way. It's all fantasy. Any physical evidence that ties them to that scene?

48 Hours

Friends for Life

1606.725

To make matters worse, police lost what could have been a key piece of evidence. a surveillance videotape from Fred's Lounge, a popular bar near the crime scene. Since the camera was aimed at the only road to the crime scene, it could have shown who was driving the Honda that day, Brian or Sissy.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

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And there's something else the police neglected, another possible suspect, the husband of Brian's mistress, Fannie Dietz.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

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Shane Dietz was married to Fannie at the time and later divorced her. Fannie had confessed the affair to her husband just two months before Brian was killed. Did you lure him to that area, Wagon Wheel Road, and shoot him?

48 Hours

Friends for Life

1676.257

Police didn't interview him during their initial investigation. Why wouldn't investigators go talk to this man right away? You know his wife's having an affair. Why wouldn't you interview him right away?

48 Hours

Friends for Life

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Police cleared Dietz because his employer said he was at work all day.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

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But defense attorney Glenn Van Voorhis is hoping that police mistakes and the lack of any physical evidence will add up to reasonable doubt. And he points to one bizarre twist that shows the unlikelihood of Robin being involved.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

1721.658

An hour before police say Brian was murdered, Robin was seen shopping for boats dressed in white pants and flip flops, not exactly practical clothing for planning to kill a man.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

1802.201

Robin Davis and Sissy Saltzman, along with their close friend Marcy Wilson, are praying hard for a miracle.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

1819.488

Three long years after Brian Davis' murder, Sissy and Robin are finally about to go on trial.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

1836.051

Sissy insists that the man she's accused of killing wasn't just Robin's husband. He was also Sissy's best friend.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

1851.027

And when the day finally comes, the two women who do everything together enter the court together to stand trial for murder. So what do the two women face right now?

48 Hours

Friends for Life

1872.02

Cameras are not allowed in the courtroom for what both defense attorneys and prosecutors admit may be the toughest battle of their careers.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

1888.533

When you have a case where you really believe your clients are innocent, does that add... It makes it much more difficult.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

1904.856

Also in the courtroom are these two women, Felicia Ballard and Sherry Lusk, serving as jurors for the first time.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

1928.467

Jurors say it was a job made even harder because investigators didn't do their job. What about the fact that there were other possible suspects? Brian was having an affair. Yes. Now, what about the fact that the police lost that surveillance videotape? That was...

48 Hours

Friends for Life

1974.724

Jurors also had to deal with other troubling contradictions in Robin's story.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

1993.719

Jurors heard from experts who say those same cell phone records put the women at the crime scene.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

2014.178

But the defense performed its own tests of the cell phone signals. What can happen, says investigator Aaron Miller, is that when one tower becomes overloaded, cell phone signals sometimes bounce to another tower. You just can't pinpoint someone's position, and especially in a more rural area like this. However, their unscientific results could not be admitted as evidence at trial.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

2048.12

But it wasn't just the cell phone evidence that the jury had to consider. They learned Robin attempted to cash in on those life insurance policies, valued at more than $600,000, just two weeks after Brian's death. And some jurors were troubled by the women's apparent lack of emotion during trial.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

2077.805

As the jury begins deliberations, there's one juror, Shandricka Washington, who believes the prosecution failed to do its job.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

2094.851

As Robin Davis contemplates spending the rest of her life in prison, the stress is clearly visible.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

2124.211

But suddenly, our interview is cut short.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

2151.282

After less than three hours, Robin Davis gets the word the jury is back. As she rushes to court with her defense team, Robin prays the nightmare that she and Sissy have faced for more than three years is finally over. Fear and uncertainty have replaced Robin's usual laughter. But there is also uncertainty in the jury room. There was one person who was holding out, wasn't she? Yes.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

2191.134

The holdout is Shandricka Washington.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

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Even the cell phone evidence isn't enough to overcome Shandricka's doubts.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

2214.266

And so no matter what you discussed, she stuck with... She stuck with not guilty. Not guilty. So there were 11 people who voted what? Guilty. Guilty. And one? Not guilty. In nearly every state in this country, 11 jurors to one would have meant a mistrial. Sissy and Robin would have walked out of the courtroom. But this is Louisiana. And here, only 10 jurors are needed for a murder conviction.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

2258.877

Robin Davis and Cissy Saltzman are both convicted of second-degree murder.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

2316.104

But those who love Brian Davis don't share those doubts.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

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And reality sinks in for Sissy and Robin's loved ones too.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

2367.491

A month later, a tearful Robin Davis faces her future.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

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And what about Sissy, whose friendship with Robin landed her behind bars? How do you have that smile on your face? I don't know.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

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Sissy Saltzman and Robin Davis are serving their time in the same facility. They see each other briefly in the jail's church. But the women are determined to hold on to what they say matters the most.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

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So your friendship will survive all of this?

48 Hours

Friends for Life

247.589

I'm Erin Moriarty. Tonight on 48 Hours, friends for life.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

266.391

For 20-something years. Robin Davis and Carol Sissy Saltzman are doing what Southern women have always done when times get tough. They look their best, and they're doing it together. You won't find two women closer friends than Robin and Sissy.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

308.425

These days, their friendship is more important than ever, since they've been charged with murder together. After Robin's husband was shot to death alongside his car on an isolated road, both women adamantly deny the charge.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

338.237

There were no salons in the county jail, where Robin and Sissy spent two months before getting out on bail.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

366.522

Robin and Cissy are preparing for trial and the fight of their lives to convince a jury they had nothing to do with Brian Davis' death. She loved the man, Robin says, although she admits that's not how the relationship started when she first met him at the office in 2001.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

394.485

They worked together at an insurance company in Hammond, Louisiana.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

409.268

It did work out, at least for the most part. They married in 2008 after a four-year courtship.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

424.697

I mean, just nothing. It was Brian's third marriage, Robin's second. And combined, they had six children. Robin had two. Brian had four. How would you describe him, Cissy?

48 Hours

Friends for Life

449.936

To everyone who knew him, including his younger brother Scott, Brian was a man who loved a good time.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

464.329

But sometimes, Brian's idea of fun got in the way of his marriages. Brian had an eye for other women, and he didn't just look. So he wasn't always faithful? No.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

481.034

With another woman?

48 Hours

Friends for Life

507.877

But she wasn't happy about the fact that Brian was still cheating on her. I didn't know that she knew. I just thought she was oblivious to the whole thing. Robin's daughter, Kelsey, who lived with her and Brian, didn't quite trust him.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

528.886

with women everywhere we went. And Robin saw it, too. So what did you choose to do?

48 Hours

Friends for Life

542.251

This is one of the women Brian was cheating with, Fannie Dietz. Their two-year affair began before Brian married Robin and continued throughout the marriage. Fanny agreed to speak with us on the condition that we obscure her face.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

563.621

Did you love Brian Davis?

48 Hours

Friends for Life

566.642

And did Brian love you? Yes. The affair had ended a few months before June 29, 2009, when Brian Davis disappeared. According to Robin and Sissy, he had left to go boat shopping and never came home. His body was discovered on this deserted road by a man out test driving a car.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

597.907

At the crime scene, Calcasieu Parish Sheriff Tony Mancuso says investigators uncovered several strange clues. Brian's car was jacked up. His shoes were off. His belt undone. And some of his valuables missing. When you first heard that your brother had been killed, what did you think?

48 Hours

Friends for Life

632.033

But just hours into their murder investigation, police started to wonder if Robin was involved based on the way she was reacting to her husband's death.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

658.678

That's when Sissy, too, came under scrutiny. Prosecutor Rick Bryant believes the two best friends plotted Brian's death. So you really believe these two blonde, middle-aged women lured Brian Davis out to this secluded spot and then shot him four times cold-bloodedly and watched him die? To the women's many friends, including Marcy Wilson, the whole idea is preposterous.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

714.957

She's your best friend. Oh, yeah. And Robin says you'd do anything for her. Absolutely. Would you if she asked you to kill somebody? Would you do that? Oh, my God.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

780.427

Brian Davis loved to fish on the many waterways in South Louisiana. And on the last day of his life, a Monday late in June 2009, he was looking to buy a boat.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

805.114

Brian worked a few hours that day and then returned home to pick up Robin. He was excited about the excursion.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

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The couple stopped at a boat store called Jerry's Marine, about half hour away, where they were seen on security videotape a little before 3 o'clock that afternoon. And I was being facetious, like, oh, God, if I have to look at one more boat, I'm going to die. But soon Robin grew tired of boat shopping and says Brian drove her home in her Trailblazer.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

851.016

Robin says Brian then switched cars, got into his own Honda Accord, like this one, and drove off alone to do more boat shopping. There was nothing out of the ordinary about that day. But something out of the ordinary did happen that night. Brian Davis never returned home.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

886.418

Robin's first fear was that Brian was up to his old tricks again and had gone to meet another woman.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

898.152

As the clock ticked past 10 p.m., Robin says she started to panic. Stayed up the whole night.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

907.699

No, yeah. I called everyone around here. And what's your last name, ma'am? Including the police, who told her she had to wait 24 hours to report someone missing.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

926.874

Brian's brother, Scott Davis, was home in Tennessee. How did you find out he was missing?

48 Hours

Friends for Life

938.381

Before long, friends and family were leaving frantic messages for Brian on his cell phone.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

956.334

Two days later, William Bryan Davis's body was found.

48 Hours

Friends for Life

981.862

What did your mother say?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

1022.642

The police had concluded that Carrie committed suicide. Only a few photographs were taken at the scene. The only evidence collected was the Unison bottle, the remaining pills, and the typed suicide note. Why do you think the police were so willing to accept this as a suicide immediately? He's a pastor. He's a preacher. So what did you all do? We began an investigation. All of you?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

1049.65

Calling themselves Charlie's Angels. Linda was Charlie and we were the angels. They began making phone calls.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

1061.248

Following every lead and retracing Matt's movements the night Carrie died.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

1072.918

Their biggest discovery came unexpectedly. when Linda took a look at Matt and Carrie's cell phone records.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

1094.997

The record showed 10 days after Carrie died, someone began using her cell phone. And who was using it? Vanessa Bowles.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

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Vanessa Bulls, a young woman who attended Matt's church. Weren't you talking a lot to this young woman, Vanessa?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

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But phone records show almost 1,700 minutes of calls between Matt and Vanessa in just 10 days.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

1152.95

But the records show Matt began calling Vanessa before Carrie died.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

1164.715

Vanessa told the police they did begin dating, but only after Carrie's death.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

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Armed with a possible motive, Linda hired Bill Johnston, a dogged former federal prosecutor, and his team of investigators.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

1235.814

Three months after Carrie Baker was laid to rest, her parents had her body removed from the grave and autopsied. What made you decide to exhume your daughter's body? That had to be a tough decision, wasn't it?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

1258.516

Linda Doolin was determined to find out how her daughter died. Although the authorities ruled it a suicide, she suspected that Matt Baker was responsible.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

1272.599

Sure. Attorney Bill Johnston and his investigators found much of the evidence troubling.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

1290.241

They found more disturbing evidence in the computer network that serves the entire youth center where Matt worked as a chaplain. One month before Kerry died, he began conducting online searches for overdose on sleeping pills and on the prescription drug Ambien, even though Kerry didn't have a prescription for that drug. Matt's explanation?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

1319.443

But if you were concerned when you mentioned it to her doctor?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

1330.936

When investigators asked to examine Matt's actual computer that was on his desk, they discovered it wasn't his. Sometime in mid-June, when the search for evidence got underway, someone had replaced Matt's desktop computer with his secretary's, and Matt's had vanished. And why would anyone want to take that computer?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

1354.65

Was there something on that computer you didn't want anyone to see?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

1361.443

Investigators also have no idea whether there was anything incriminating on Matt's home computer. Matt says the hard drive crashed and is no longer working. It's just a coincidence that the hard drive on your home computer is fried and the computer from work disappeared. Just a coincidence.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

1384.707

The more Bill Johnston heard, the more he was convinced that Linda Doolin's doubts about her son-in-law might be right.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

1398.118

Do you believe Matt Baker is a dangerous man?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

1403.536

Johnston believes that because when Carrie told her grief counselor that she thought Matt was trying to kill her, Carrie confided that she found a mysterious bottle of crushed pills in Matt's briefcase.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

1425.04

Matt told 48 Hours a very different story. He said there were pills, but they were Carrie's and had never been in his briefcase.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

1437.767

Was that bottle of crushed pills in your briefcase?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

1447.472

And the pills are now gone. You know what Matt says? Matt says she threw out the crushed pills. That Matt offered to have them tested and she put them down the sink.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

1469.702

As Johnston's suspicions mounted, he convinced his friend, Texas Ranger Matt Cawthon, to look at the case. Cawthon too suspected foul play and became frustrated by the faulty police investigation. What kind of evidence should have been taken in that night?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

1500.434

How much pressure did you have to put on the Hewitt Police Department to take a new look at this case?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

151.281

I'm Erin Moriarty, the preacher's wife.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

1510.945

In September 2006, the results of Carrie's autopsy, done three months after her body was embalmed and buried, finally came in. And still, no proof of how Carrie died. No remnants of pills were found in Carrie's stomach. But there was evidence of Ambien in her muscle tissue, the same sleeping drug Matt researched on the internet.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

1536.533

Bill Johnston points to the photos taken the night Carrie died, which showed discoloration around Carrie's nose and lips, an indication, he says, she may have been suffocated.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

1562.021

There are enough questions that 18 months after Carrie Baker died, the Justice of the Peace declared her death was no longer classified as suicide.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

1577.167

The police now had a possible homicide on their hands. On September 21st, 2007, the former pastor was arrested and charged with murder.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

1599.505

Matt posted Bond and returned home to his daughters.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

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He says he is the victim of insidious innuendo and wild speculation. Have you been able to get work? Not after the arrest. Not after the arrest. And Matt has found a powerful ally.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

1626.134

Like Bill Johnston, Guy James Gray was once a high-profile prosecutor.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

1640.592

Gray says Carrie's despair is spelled out in her own heartbreaking entries she wrote in her Bible after her daughter died.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

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Gray also says he can explain some of the seemingly incriminating circumstances. What about the abrasion on the nose and possibly on her lip?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

1675.421

But Bill Johnson says that the abrasion had to have been left there before Carrie died, and that Matt is the one who caused it. According to Johnston, the most damaging evidence comes from Matt Baker himself. People did say she was very upset with you. Why was she so upset with you?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

1773.479

Facing murder charges in Waco, Matt Baker retreated to his childhood home in Kerrville, Texas, where his old friends were outraged at the accusations.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

1796.381

That's also how Jill Hotz, Carrie Baker's close friend, once felt about Matt.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

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But today, she no longer believes in Matt, nor the story he tells about Carrie. And I know she didn't take her own life.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

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Because of a conversation she had with Carrie just days before her death.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

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And Carrie told Jill that her preacher husband did something far worse. He blamed her for their child's death.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

187.381

Ever since Matt Baker's wife died suddenly at the age of 31, the Baptist preacher has lived under a cloud of suspicion. Is he an innocent man unfairly accused, as his followers and friends believe?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

1885.529

Carrie said that Matt blamed her for Cassidy's death? Yes. And how did she take that? Extremely hard.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

1903.006

Judge for yourself. Matt sent Carrie this email just days before she spoke with Jill. I know deep down I hold a grudge against God and you for him answering your prayer and not mine, he wrote. In some ways, I do hold you to blame for her death.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

1927.185

The day after Carrie confided in Jill was when Carrie told her counselor she thought Matt was trying to kill her. The counselor confronted Matt at Carrie's funeral.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

1949.49

Matt denies he had any reason to kill Carrie. He denies cheating on her. And remember earlier, he had insisted that the woman he spent so much time with, Vanessa Bowles, was only a friend.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

1972.985

So you were interested in Vanessa Bowles.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

1974.807

You did want to date Vanessa Bowles.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

1978.846

According to Matt, Carrie's severe anxiety was apparent to everyone who saw her in those days leading up to her death. But we couldn't find anyone to confirm that. On the contrary, even her close friend Jill says that when she last spoke to Carrie, Carrie seemed happier and said things had improved with Matt.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

2008.266

Those who saw Carrie on her last day say her spirits were much higher than earlier in the week. Her friend Todd Munsey says she looked forward to the prospect of a new job. She told me she had a great interview, was so excited about it, and yeah, we had a good high five right there in the hallway.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

2025.719

But that very night, Carrie died, and her parents' attorney, Bill Johnston, says there are serious inconsistencies in Matt's story.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

204.474

Or is he hiding a terrible dark secret? In your name we pray.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

2044.37

Matt is very specific about what time he left Carrie to put gas in the car and get movies.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

2054.372

Yet he seems unclear about Carrie's state when he left.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

2070.107

But listen to what he said to us two months later.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

2079.892

And remember how Matt says he first found out that Carrie killed herself?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

2090.549

Yet he had clearly read the note when he called the 911 operator.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

2104.195

You read the note. You had said to the operator, she says, I'm sorry.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

2115.68

The police told Matt the cause of death was obvious.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

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It was all too obvious, says attorney Bill Johnston.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

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Johnston also points out signs of lividity on Carrie's body, the pooling of blood that happens after death, an indication, he says, that Carrie had been dead far longer than the 40 or so minutes that Mac claims he was away.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

216.779

Carrie was a popular third grade teacher. She and Matt have been together since meeting as counselors at a Baptist day camp in Waco in 1994.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

2170.854

And he is not the only one who questions Matt's story. What parts of Matt Baker's story bother you?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

2182.177

Stephen Karsh, a toxicologist 48 hours consulted, says that if Carrie were alive when Matt said he left the house, her body would not be cold to the touch, as both Matt and a paramedic reported.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

2219.727

Matt, did you kill your wife? Did you have anything to do with her death that night?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

2235.961

Matt had been arrested and charged with murder. But the DA had not yet brought the case to a grand jury. That's a requirement under Texas law for a murder case to go to trial. How easy is it to actually take someone to trial for murder when even the coroner can't determine that a murder occurred?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

2259.316

Matt's attorney, Guy James Gray, was determined to get the charges dropped, and he had plenty of support from Matt's friends. I think it should be thrown out.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

237.72

Linda and Jim Doolin remember their daughter was instantly smitten with the Baylor University senior. The thing she kept talking about was, Mom, this guy's a really good Christian. Just three months after meeting, Matt and Carrie suddenly announced they were getting married. Did you like him?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

2493.507

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

261.058

By their first anniversary, Carrie was pregnant with daughter Kenzie. She was so excited. She really was a terrific mom. A second daughter, Cassidy, followed a year and a half later. She loved her girls. You know, you know how you feel. There are no words. But right after Cassidy's first birthday, doctors discovered a brain tumor and she was hospitalized.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

305.171

In late February 1999, after a 90-day bedside vigil, Cassidy was well enough to go home.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

317.062

But just after midnight on March 22nd, Cassidy was rushed to the emergency room. This time, doctors couldn't save her.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

344.122

especially for Carrie. How hard did she take that death?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

358.254

A grief counselor helped Carrie get through the first year, and in 2000, a third daughter, Grace, was born. But Matt says his wife was never the same.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

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The way Matt tells it, he became Mr. Mom to Kenzie and Grace.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

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And from the time Cassidy died, Matt says, Carrie relied on pills to sleep. What kind of sleeping pills? What would she take? Unisom. An over-the-counter sleep medication. But Matt says sometimes she borrowed something stronger from family and friends.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

426.829

And the toughest time for Carrie was always the March anniversary of Cassidy's death.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

440

In April 2006, seven years after Cassidy died, Matt says Carrie was still struggling with the loss. So he took her to the doctor, who diagnosed her as depressed and prescribed an antidepressant.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

466.939

As they left the clinic and headed onto the highway, Matt says Carrie had a meltdown.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

485.59

He says he grabbed hold of her waistband until he could pull off the highway. Did you feel that those actions indicated that she was trying to kill herself?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

503.268

Later that week, on Friday, April 7th, Carrie had a crucial interview for a new job at the junior high. What was her mood like? Her mood that day was nervous. And after the interview, Matt says, Carrie didn't feel well. She wasn't laying over like this.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

537.136

At 10.30, with the kids in bed, Matt says Carrie asked him to gas up the car and rent a movie.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

563.627

When he returned around midnight, Matt says he found the bedroom door was locked.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

585.811

Matt says at the same time he was on the phone, he was also moving Carrie to the floor where he began CPR. She's not breathing. What are you thinking has happened to her?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

599.743

Paramedics arrive within minutes. But it was too late. Carrie was dead. Police found an empty bottle of Unisom next to a note. I'm so sorry, it read. I love you, Matt. I want to give Cassidy a hug. I need to feel her again. It was all the evidence the small-town police needed.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

657.915

The county doesn't have a medical examiner, so police just described the case over the phone to a justice of the peace, who determined that Kerry Baker died from an overdose of Unisom. No autopsy needed. Two days later, she was buried. And that might have been the end of this story, if not for a group of tenacious women.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

724.214

You really miss her, don't you, Jim? As out of character as suicide seemed, Carrie Baker's parents, Jim and Linda Doolin, say they had no choice but to believe it.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

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But that's exactly what Linda's family thinks. He killed her. Linda's sisters, Nancy, Kay, and Jennifer, and niece Lindsey. I immediately thought Matt did it. You believe that?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

777.843

From the start, they tried to convince Linda that Carrie's death needed to be investigated.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

795.399

Linda's younger sister, Nancy, says Matt's story about Carrie's last day simply didn't match anyone else's.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

806.727

You don't believe that?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

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And would a sick, tired Carrie ask Matt to put gas in the car and rent a movie? That make sense?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

821.331

And they certainly don't believe that if Carrie did commit suicide, that she would ever be found in the nude. Nothing seemed to make sense, not even the choice of the sleeping aid Unisom. She actually took a generic brand. She called it a sleepy time. She said her sleepy time pill. They also say that Carrie's unhappiness in the last weeks of her life wasn't about Cassidy.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

847.862

According to her former grief counselor, Carrie was worried about herself.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

862.07

That was just three days before Carrie died. And there's more. Linda's sisters began sharing secrets they had kept from her all these years. I didn't realize that no one in the family had liked him. They began to tell Linda about Matt's odd and even boorish behavior.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

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There were several unsettling incidents, like in 1996 when Carrie lived with Matt in this complex. Deanne Avalos says the preacher tried to pick up her 16-year-old daughter.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

919.58

At one church youth center, Matt was warned about his behavior with young women. He never seemed to stay long at any job.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

934.533

And there was this woman. Laura Wilson met Matt in 1991. Top of the first one. When they were both student athletic trainers at Baylor University. One day, she says, they were cleaning an empty locker room when he suddenly grabbed her.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

966.226

Matt denies ever touching Laura. Instead, he says he inadvertently scared her that day by turning out the lights. Did you ever? assault or harass any of these women?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

981.685

So if these women say you did, they are lying?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

995.739

Nothing adds up. Linda finally began to see Matt through her sister's eyes. But persuading the local police to reopen the investigation into Carrie's death was going to be far more difficult.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | JonBenét Ramsey

1003.162

How old would JonBenet be now? Oh, it just gets to me. 34 years of age. Mary asked me to ask Jon, does he ever dream about his daughter? Because I never asked that question. And it was a good question because he said, I do, but I only see her as a six-year-old. I can't imagine her at 34 years of age.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | JonBenét Ramsey

1039.206

81. Yes, remarried. And just the John Ramsey that I've known all these years. He holds all his emotions to himself, but very determined person. as he says, why he's speaking out and putting himself out there is he really wants this killer caught. And he says it won't make a difference for his life because he is 81, but it will make a difference. He has three surviving children.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | JonBenét Ramsey

1064.121

He also, he had five children, three from another earlier marriage. And He lost a daughter in a car accident. So for his three surviving children and their children, he really wants this cloud away from the Ramsey family. And also, you know, he wants justice for his daughter.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | JonBenét Ramsey

1112.13

He is. I think what's interesting is he's not alone in this. Lou Smith, who was the investigator, has since died. But according to John Ramsey, his family is involved in this investigation and John Ramsey's son, John Andrew Ramsey. They will take on that fight, whatever happens to John. Although John pointed out to us, wasn't his mother who lived to be nearly 100?

48 Hours

Post Mortem | JonBenét Ramsey

1137.348

And so he says he's not going anywhere. Yeah. Yes, he's not alone. The family is right behind him trying to find who killed JonBenet Ramsey.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | JonBenét Ramsey

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The only thing that surprises me about it is that the case hasn't really changed since we did our reporting in depth. And that makes me sad. I want it for John Ramsey. I want it for all of us, too. No child should die in her own home and that killer go free. And so it's not just for John Ramsey and his family. I think it's for all of us.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | JonBenét Ramsey

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Whoever killed John Benet Ramsey should be in prison and not out to ever hurt another child. Absolutely. Thank you so much, ladies.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | JonBenét Ramsey

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Well, in a way, in 2002, 48 Hours and the team that I worked with, we were a bit of outliers because they actually did polls back then and showed that most people in America thought that John and Patsy Ramsey had something to do with it. But we had really been looking at the real facts, not the rumors, not the things that appeared in the tabloids. And we were really open to the idea.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | JonBenét Ramsey

148.881

There was a lot of evidence pointing to the fact that an intruder could have come in the home. And so they opened their doors to us and we got incredible access. You know, at that time, Patsy was undergoing chemotherapy again, you know, her cancer had come back. And she took us and showed us her paintings that showed great pain.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | JonBenét Ramsey

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And then the other thing that I will never forget, she did the interview with makeup and a wig, as I learned. And then after the cameras are off, she flips off the wig. And there she is. You know what? She's bald. Wow. And it really told you what she was going through. But she also said many times, that's nothing compared to losing a child. I may have cancer, but the real pain is losing a child.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | JonBenét Ramsey

213.783

She was very, very strong. She had to be. And I think it's because she was going through cancer. There's no question she could have called for sympathy. In fact, what she was most vocal about was finding the killer of her daughter. That's what you'll see in the interview is that she really wanted them to find who killed her daughter. Right.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | JonBenét Ramsey

298.098

There's a lot of reasons why we were very open to the idea of an intruder. One of it is that we learned the way the child died, which was initially with a garrote. And as Lou Smith pointed out, there's no other case he had ever come across where a parent had used a garrote on a child. I think another thing was really struck me when Patsy said to me,

48 Hours

Post Mortem | JonBenét Ramsey

319.837

almost angrily at one point saying, I was dealing with stage four cancer. I was not sure I would have more time with my children. You really think I was going to get upset because my child wet her bed? That made so much sense to me as a mother. And the other thing is, a lot of people say, how could that happen with the parents being in the house?

48 Hours

Post Mortem | JonBenét Ramsey

340.347

And I was in the house with Doug Longini, that producer, and he was in the parents' bedroom and I was in JonBenet's bedroom. And I yelled, I mean, you know, I have a voice and I yelled at the top of my voice. He could hear nothing. And so, again, that made me realize that a lot of the things we were hearing came They just weren't accurate.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | JonBenét Ramsey

398.254

Well, you know, I had stayed in touch like through email. This was the longest time I hadn't spoken to him. So I was a little worried that for this show, I emailed him and then I heard right back, literally like within minutes. You know, we've told every single angle of this story. John and Patsy Ramsey have believed that we are fair.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | JonBenét Ramsey

419.828

And so it was wonderful that he was willing to sit down and talk about today.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | JonBenét Ramsey

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Well, first, we have to point out that we don't know what the Boulder Police Department has done because they are not saying at this point. But John Ramsey said that he has been told that genetic genealogy might at some point be able to work for him. He has spoken to people who work in labs. There is DNA in this case. It does not match anyone in the Ramsey family.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | JonBenét Ramsey

534.376

currently in the kind of format that would be necessary to go in the public databases. I was surprised. Well, if there isn't enough to go in a public database, how did it ever go in CODIS? So CODIS is the FBI database that contains the DNA of a offenders, you know, people usually who are in prison. And so there were enough markers.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | JonBenét Ramsey

558.248

It was a sufficient DNA profile to go into CODIS, but not enough for the public databases, according to what John Ramsey has been told. But he wants the Boulder Police Department to turn to a private lab. Sometimes the city and state and county labs don't have those facilities.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | JonBenét Ramsey

577.742

And he believes because he's been told, I don't know how accurate it is, but he has been told that a lab might be able to put this DNA in a format that can be put in to a public database that we're all kind of familiar with, GEDmatch or 23andMe. Mm-hmm.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | JonBenét Ramsey

605.701

Exactly. Just in November of 2024, the Boulder Police Department issued a press release that said the assertion that there is viable evidence and leads we are not pursuing to include DNA testing is completely false.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | JonBenét Ramsey

69.722

So let's get going. Welcome. And I'm so happy to be here to talk about this. I really care about this case. Thanks so much for having us.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | JonBenét Ramsey

690.387

But Aaron, you interviewed him. I did. And one of the reasons why he really caught our eye and maybe the Boulder Police Department was because he showed up at one of those candlelight ceremonies that would happen on the date that JonBenet had been murdered. We knew he was sitting in a jail and we went to visit him. He agreed to speak to us.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | JonBenét Ramsey

716.444

And I don't know how else to describe it, but just I was so... disturbed by the interview. I'm a mother of a child that was just slightly older than JonBenet at the time. And this was a guy who admitted he had been obsessed with JonBenet and that she came to him after she died. This was a man who had told a friend that he had hurt a child. And he had a history.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | JonBenét Ramsey

745.339

He had already served time for a crime involving a child. And so I think working this case was eye opening for me. Interviewing a man like Gary Oliva was eye opening because it's the part of our world that you don't want to think exists. But I thought it was important for people to hear and see him. I look at him in this show today and I am still, I don't know how else to put it, but creeped out.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | JonBenét Ramsey

796.829

And he wasn't the only suspect I interviewed. I interviewed a man who lived in his mother's basement. And if I had not gone down with a cameraman, I would have been terrified. He had come up as a possible suspect because... They thought he had taken one of the candy canes that had been sitting outside the Ramsey home. And they said it disappeared after the murder.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | JonBenét Ramsey

820.049

Not only did he have a shrine to John Bonnet, that's why we went to see him. He also had a shrine to John Wayne Gacy, a well-known serial killer. Now, none of these people that we're talking about, they're DNA did not match the DNA that was found at the crime scene of John Benet Ramsey. But the idea that these individuals exist is is frightening.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | JonBenét Ramsey

856.371

There's been one. It was really interesting. How could I? I could never forget it because, as you know, I've been on this case a long time. There always seems to be a new development. And there was a man by the name of John Mark Carr, and he insisted that he did kill John Bonnet. So he was arrested, but he was later released because he

48 Hours

Post Mortem | JonBenét Ramsey

878.818

One thing he said was that he had drugged her and accidentally killed her. And according to the autopsy, she did not have drugs in her system. And also, again, like the other suspects, his DNA did not match the DNA from the crime scene.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | JonBenét Ramsey

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John Ramsey in this current interview made a real point about that, which I was really grateful for because he knows there are a lot of people who think that way. He looks back and he has some regrets. He would not put his child in a beauty pageant today now knowing what he knows now. But he reminds us that, remember, Patsy had, just at that point, thought she had survived cancer.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | JonBenét Ramsey

961.652

And she wanted to spend every minute she could with her kids. And she had been herself a beauty queen. And it was something that JonBenet loved to do. And it was something the two of them could do together. And so he said, I was torn. I didn't like it. But I knew that JonBenet and Patsy did love doing it together. And I think when you see it from that perspective, you don't see it as problematic.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | JonBenét Ramsey

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You know, it was a hobby.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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I do want to point out why we stay on these stories. If you're going to properly report on it, legal cases like this, these complicated medical issues that involve possibly a coerced confession, that takes time. So if you're going to really report on these issues, you've got to stay on it. And so I know this probably won't be our last installment.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

1067.055

We're waiting to see what the governor's office says decides, what the governor decides. At this moment, there has been a confidential recommendation made by the Prisoner Review Board, but there's no deadline for the governor.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

110.051

Well, I'm going to tell you, Anne-Marie, that I encountered something with this case I had never encountered before. Right away, I saw issues. I started asking Melissa questions, and I realized she wasn't quite understanding what I was asking. Now, I had known that she had cognitive issues. That came up during the trial and later on.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

1118.26

But she'll have to start all over again. That breaks my heart. We see this over and over again. It just takes a long time. And I understand why Melissa's defense attorney went this route, but this is a long shot, too. Yeah. But Anne-Marie, I should point out that at the hearing, and we were all touched by it, Ben's parents, his mother specifically, but his dad was there as well, spoke.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

1144.7

They believe he was murdered by Melissa. They spoke very movingly about how hard it's been for them. Ben was a twin, and they mentioned how difficult it was for his surviving twin sister to deal with it. So that is an important issue that the governor will weigh as well and may also play a part in where this case goes. I mean, that's what's so hard.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

1173.316

There are the facts that sometimes are hard to get to, and then there are the emotions in these cases. Sometimes justice is somewhere in between.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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Well, remember, Melissa is their baby. And so they feel they've lost, even though they can visit her, they've lost a child too. They feel great pain. They never had a lot of financial resources to begin with. And so they have... spent probably close to everything they have. They live very, very modestly. They still have faith, which is astounding to me.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

1266.947

They believe she will come home, and that's why they're keeping her room the same. They want her to come back. They have her artwork. She's a wonderful artist. She really is. And so they have her artwork on the walls, and they have not lost faith. And, you know, that's hard because... We see them and then we can leave. But we know they're left with that heartbreak.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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All of them, you know, the King and family and the Kaluzinski family.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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more recently, she had actually been diagnosed with borderline intellectual functioning. And so knowing that and seeing her in this interview with me, I kept thinking, oh my gosh, if she's having trouble understanding me, what went on in that interrogation room? Did she really understand what was at stake, what they were asking, what she needed to tell them?

48 Hours

Post Mortem | Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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That's what came to my mind after interviewing her.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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You know what? I've got to point out here that much of what she says first came from the detectives. The detectives are the ones who first say, "'Throw on the floor.'" And they say to Melissa, we're hearing from the pathologist that there's a skull fracture.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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So these detectives are trying, at least it appears from this interrogation, to get her to come up with a scenario, which they come up with on their own. You can hear them come up with it that would explain a skull fracture.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

312.537

When Melissa tried to give other explanations, they won't accept what she's saying. They want her to say what they believe happened. You know, an expert also said that because of her low IQ, both Salkasin and other experts who looked at this said that she may not have even understood really what was going on in that room.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

337.705

Starting from the beginning, when they read her rights, when you watch them read her the rights, she just says, sure, yes. Did she understand them?

48 Hours

Post Mortem | Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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What we understand is her parents were looking for her. But remember, Melissa was an adult. And Melissa thought she was helping police, or at least that's what she told us. Because I did ask her, why did you talk to them? She said that she loved Ben Kingan and was devastated by his death and she wanted to help.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

473.749

Can I just first tell you why those x-rays matter so much? As Stephanie had mentioned, whether there was a skull fracture or not is really, really crucial to this case. And at trial, according to the prosecution, only x-rays they had were dark. They handed over the defense.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

492.057

Those x-rays were taken during autopsy, but that pathologist at trial testified that he couldn't read them, that they were readable. So none of the experts, neither the defense or the state, say that they saw clear x-rays. And as Stephanie mentioned, we now know that at least one well-regarded expert said that if there was a skull fracture, it would be on that clear x-ray.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

519.586

And they're not seeing it on that x-ray. So imagine that that was not at trial and didn't come out until this anonymous phone call.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

52.552

This is one of those very complicated cases, so an opportunity to talk more about it. I'm in.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

551.262

Are you the one who made that anonymous phone call? No, I did not. I mean, will you swear to me you weren't the caller?

48 Hours

Post Mortem | Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

562.734

I mean, obviously somebody let Paul Kalyuzinski know those x-rays existed. The bottom line is clear x-rays did exist on the coroner's computer.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

614.989

Well, this is when you're talking about what are the rules of the court system and what your heart says. So the state still stands by the idea that there's a skull fracture, although there are a lot of individuals who, including the pediatric neuroradiologist, Dr. Zimmerman, who says if there was a skull fracture, you'd be able to see it on those x-rays and they're not there.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

642.108

So that's still a big, important issue.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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But never dealt with these findings that someone may have manipulated evidence that was not given at trial. He never even addresses that.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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But she ended up talking to us. I went up to her and I asked her to speak with us. And she did not want to initially. But I said, sit down. We'll just shoot you from behind. So viewers were not able to see her face. We agreed to that. And we also agreed to only call her by her first name, Brenda. But it was helpful.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

869.653

It really was helpful to know that there's still a lot of questions about what happened in that daycare center before Melissa even worked there. I hope people realize it's undisputed that Ben Kingan had some kind of injury. It could be a bump in the head or it could be more serious than that. But that's not disputed at all. And it happened in the daycare center.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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It happened three months before he died. And Melissa was not working there at the time. So that's why that's significant. Mm-hmm.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Footprint

1028.863

And so they interviewed John Eswa. And I should point out, none of his DNA was found in the apartment, but his blood was found in the stairwell. And they interview him, and he's a very friendly guy. But when they compared his feet to those unknown bloody footprints, it came out inconclusive. The jury never heard any of that. And a more interesting person is James Luther Carlton.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Footprint

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Oh, I'm really grateful to be here because this is one of those stories, people who love forensics love this story.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Footprint

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So James Luther Carlton was convicted of killing a woman a year later, Jody Dover, in her apartment. And here's why it's eerily similar in Jody Dover's murder. There were also bloody footprints found, and that's so unusual. And one of those footprints was found to belong to Carlton. We do not know whether Carlton was at all investigated or killed. talked to at the time in this case.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Footprint

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But he's now serving a life sentence for Jody Dover's murder. So the jury, again, did not hear anything about Carlton or John Eswine.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Footprint

1126.718

Well, every state is different. You know, even whether you have a first degree or second degree murder is different by state by state. And I'm just going to read to you what the ruling is, because I thought this was interesting, that according to the ruling in the state of Minnesota, a defendant may be convicted of either the crime charge, which was murder or an included offense, but not both.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Footprint

1149.534

And so every lesser degree of murder is an included offense. So they decided that that second degree murder was an included offense. So he could be convicted of first degree, but not both. Not the included offense. So that's why they reversed it. But he's, you know, he's remaining in prison on first degree.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Footprint

1184.802

And there was no motive. They did not present a motive. You know, there was a, in one of her stories, date books. There was a Jerry, but nobody knows who that Jerry was, but otherwise nobody remembers him with her. Jerry just didn't come up, but no motive in this case, and he didn't take the stand.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Footprint

12.398

When you're exhausted mentally, physically, emotionally.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Footprint

1227.119

I mean, they both have said this to Jeannie's mom and her sister. They do trust the system. They believe that he did kill Jeannie. I don't think her mom will ever stop grieving. She read to us this beautiful letter that she had written her daughter once. Afterwards, so sorry that she couldn't have said all of these things to her daughter before she died.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Footprint

1253.471

So they are left with their grief, but at least they no longer in their minds have to worry about who it was. They feel they now know who killed Jeannie Childs.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Footprint

1275.382

You know I love doing this with you, Anne-Marie, and I'm so happy you're now on 48 Hours. This could not be better.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Footprint

1354.867

I'm going to do it. I know that I can.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Footprint

1358.428

When you're exhausted mentally, physically, emotionally.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Footprint

166.283

Now, what's so interesting is I think jurors sometimes think that it's a slam dunk when there is DNA that has been obtained through genetic genealogy. But the truth is DNA, if it is collected and tested properly, it can show that somebody was there, but it can't tell you when they were there. And in this case, this case, as you said, Emery, happened in 1993.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Footprint

190.752

That was when DNA was in its infancy, at least being used as a investigative tool. And so they did collect DNA and they collected those bloody footprints that are just so important in this case. But the DNA didn't match anyone back then. They did have a person of interest. She was living with a boyfriend, Arthur Gray. But he had an alibi. He was out of town that weekend.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Footprint

216.497

And they took those unknown bloody footprints and compared them to Arthur Gray and said that they did not belong to him. So the case kind of went cold. And then in 2015, just about two decades later, you know, there were so many advances in DNA technology that they did more tests. And I thought this was really interesting. As you pointed out, Emery, there was a lot of DNA there in that apartment.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Footprint

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Yeah. According to police reports, Jeannie was a sex worker and there had been men in that apartment. But what was interesting is that they found one unknown profile, the specific that was not just in the bedroom, but also in the bathroom on a towel. And because investigators believe that the killer might have cleaned up in the bathroom, that was significant to them.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Footprint

271.591

And so that is the DNA that belonged to Jerry Westrom. But all they had at that point, really, is the idea that Jerry had been in that apartment at some point. Right.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Footprint

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You cannot. And that's why in this case, those bloody footprints became so important. You know, normally it would be a genetic genealogy case. This was a bloody footprint case. And the prosecution said whoever left their footprints in her blood had to be either there at the time of the murder or right afterwards. And so...

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Footprint

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If those footprints match the person whose DNA was found in that apartment, that was a pretty good indication that that person could be the killer.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Footprint

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You know, that case inspired investigators all over the country. Yes. And they were inspired even to use the same genealogist, Barbara Rae Venter. I had met her on a story I was doing for Sunday Morning. And she's such an interesting woman. She was a patent lawyer, but she also had a Ph.D. in biology. And she loved to do because this woman has this amazing brain.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Footprint

363.969

Her hobby was to do these family trees. And That's how she got involved in the Golden State Killer case. So now she does these cases, and she took that profile that I mentioned that had been found both in the bedroom and the bathroom, and she uploaded it to the genealogy sites, including MyHeritage.com.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Footprint

386.415

And she was able to build out a family tree and came up with two suspects who happened to be brothers. And then... She picked Jerry because the DNA profile indicated that it belonged to someone with brown eyes. And Jerry Westrom had brown eyes. But more important probably, I think, for investigators was Jerry Westrom had a history of soliciting sex workers.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Footprint

414.193

And so that made him a suspect in this case. And remember, it's just it's just a piece of evidence at this point. You know, at this point, Jerry Westrom now is just a suspect. Right. Because they can't bring any charges based on what Barbara Rae Venter finds out.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Footprint

433.023

She gives them these names and then she has no idea what happens after that till they call her and say whether they've arrested a person or not. So, you know, what they have to do at that point is they've got to get a real DNA sample from that person and then see if that matches the unknown DNA in the crime scene. They have to do that or they can't take this case to court.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Footprint

490.319

Well, so, yes, you're right. He's living just right outside Minneapolis in I-70. But he is a devoted hockey dad. And I think they believed that if they followed him to Wisconsin, where he was going with his family to see his daughter play hockey, you know, you eat, you're out at a hockey game.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Footprint

510.306

So you've got these two investigators who are following him, like right behind, but they don't want him to know because what if they're wrong? They don't want to be seen. They're staying in the same hotel as Jerry and his wife are staying. I mean, they even went It just is so interesting. After he checked out of his room, they went into his room.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Footprint

529.474

Now, how are they going to know that it was his DNA that he left on something? But they did just in case they could find something that they thought connected just to him. So it takes time and they're frustrated. So they finally follow him to this game, according to Agent Bokers. They follow him to this game and they finally see him wipe his mouth with a napkin and they bring it back to the lab.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Footprint

555.805

And according to Andrea Fea, who was the forensic scientist who tested it, it matched the unknown DNA sample from the crime scene. So they've got more than a suspect. They've got someone they're about to charge.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Footprint

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Well... With a lot of surprise. Number one, you know, it had been so long. This was February 2019. Jeannie had been killed in 1993. They did not tell them that they were looking at someone. So this came out of the blue. But I think more important, especially for Jeannie's sister, Cindy, They live in Isanti, and that's where Jerry Westrom lives.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Footprint

607.14

Jerry ran Westrom's Corner, which had a shop and a gas station, and everybody went there. Her kids knew his kids. I mean, it was shocking to Jeannie's sister. And I should point out, I think this is very important. Yes, he might have had brown eyes. Yes, he may have had a history of soliciting sex workers, but he did not have a history of violence.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Footprint

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And if you remember, Anne-Marie, Jeannie was killed brutally. And so I think it came as a big shock to Cindy and her mom.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Footprint

657.135

I'm gonna do it. I know that I can.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Footprint

660.676

When you're exhausted mentally, physically, emotionally.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Footprint

765.097

I mean, he doesn't seem to be upset. You know, why isn't he asking why he's there? Or not saying what we all think he would say? I didn't do anything like that. I would say so, considering the circumstances. But when we spoke with our legal consultant, Julie Rendelman, she does point out that You really can't judge somebody's affect.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Footprint

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You know, we don't really know what's going on through his head.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Footprint

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I'm gonna do it. I know that I can.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Footprint

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That was so interesting, Anne-Marie. This was the first one for me, as it seemed to be for the investigators. But, you know, remember these were actually recorded back in 1993. They were photographed. There were seven that they had labeled. So what was interesting is we had two experts. So we had the expert for the state, and then we had an expert that had been hired by the defense.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Footprint

841.6

And the expert for the state said that four of those were suitable for comparison. And he decided, and he testified as such, that four of those prints belonged to Jerry Westrom, that Jerry Westrom was the one who left them there. That is so damaging, as you can imagine, because... We know his DNA is in that apartment, but now it looks like that these bloody prints also belong to him.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Footprint

871.58

But then you have the expert that had been hired by the defense, and she is an expert who teaches in Waterville, Maine, Alicia McCarthy. And she did the same work as the state expert, but she said that she only found one of those prints, E2, it was labeled E2, as suitable for comparison. She says that the state expert was not right about those other three, that you could not...

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Footprint

903.855

analyzed and compared those other three, just E2. But what matters in this case is she also found that the print, which is right below the big toe of the left foot, just this small area, she says was left by Jerry Westrom.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Footprint

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So as you can imagine, Anne Marie, when the defense found out that she was a green, at least on that one part that it belonged to Jerry Westrom, the defense dropped her, did not want her to testify for them. But the state said, please testify for us. She did. And I think that was very significant for the jury. So what you have is you do have the DNA, the DNA.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Footprint

948.263

genetic genealogy DNA that seems to place him in that apartment. And you have the area right below the big toe of the left foot that seems to also place Jerry Westrom in her blood on the day she was murdered. And then you have that interview where he doesn't seem to show a lot of emotion. But that's that really kind of describes the case against Jerry Westrom.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Footprint

997.536

The judge did allow the defense to raise Arthur Gray. He was living in the apartment with... Jeannie, they did have a history of abuse. She had filed a police report and his hair was found on her hand. But he had an alibi. But there there were some really interesting other possible people of interest. So they found blood right in the stairwell that belonged to a guy named John S.Y.,

48 Hours

Post Mortem | A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

1042.165

I do want to point out why we stay on these stories. If you're going to properly report on it, legal cases like this, these complicated medical issues that involve possibly a coerced confession, that takes time. So if you're going to really report on these issues, you've got to stay on it. And so I know this probably won't be our last installment.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

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We're waiting to see what the governor's office thinks decides, what the governor decides. At this moment, there has been a confidential recommendation made by the Prisoner Review Board, but there's no deadline for the governor.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

110.014

Well, I'm going to tell you, Anne-Marie, that I encountered something with this case I had never encountered before. Right away, I saw issues. I started asking Melissa questions, and I realized she wasn't quite understanding what I was asking. Now, I had known that she had cognitive issues. That came up during the trial. And later...

48 Hours

Post Mortem | A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

1118.104

But she'll have to start all over again. That breaks my heart. We see this over and over again. It just takes a long time. And I understand why Melissa's defense attorney went this route, but this is a long shot, too. Yeah. But Anne-Marie, I should point out that at the hearing, and we were all touched by it, Ben's parents, his mother specifically, but his dad was there as well, spoke.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

1144.536

They believe he was murdered by Melissa. They spoke very movingly about how hard it's been for them. Ben was a twin, and they mentioned how difficult it was for his surviving twin sister to deal with it. So that is an important issue that the governor will weigh as well and may also play a part in where this case goes. I mean, that's what's so hard.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

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There are the facts that sometimes are hard to get to, and then there are the emotions in these cases. Sometimes justice is somewhere in between.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

1237.754

Well, remember, Melissa is their baby. And so they feel they've lost, even though they can visit her, you know, they've lost a child too. They feel great pain. They never had a lot of financial resources to begin with. And so they have... spent probably close to everything they have. They live very, very modestly. They still have faith, which is astounding to me.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

1266.797

They believe she will come home, and that's why they're keeping her room the same. They want her to come back. They have her artwork. She's a wonderful artist. She really is. And so they have her artwork on the walls, and they have not lost faith. And, you know, that's hard because... We see them and then we can leave, but we know they're left with that heartbreak.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

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All of them, you know, the King and family and the Kaluzinski family.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

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Thank you. Honestly, thank you for letting us talk about this.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

134.614

more recently, she had actually been diagnosed with borderline intellectual functioning. And so knowing that and seeing her in this interview with me, I kept thinking, oh my gosh, if she's having trouble understanding me, what went on in that interrogation room? Did she really understand what was at stake, what they were asking, what she needed to tell them?

48 Hours

Post Mortem | A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

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That's what came to my mind after interviewing her.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

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You know what? I've got to point out here that much of what she says first came from the detectives. The detectives are the ones who first say... throw on the floor. And they say to Melissa, we're hearing from the pathologist that there's a skull fracture.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

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So these detectives are trying, at least it appears from this interrogation, to get her to come up with a scenario, which they come up with on their own. You can hear them come up with it that would explain a skull fracture.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

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When Melissa tried to give other explanations, they won't accept what she's saying. They want her to say what they believe happened. You know, an expert also said that because of her low IQ, both Salkasin and other experts who looked at this said that she may not have even understood really what was going on in that room.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

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Starting from the beginning, when they read her rights, when you watch them read her the rights, she just says, sure, yes. Did she understand them?

48 Hours

Post Mortem | A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

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What we understand is her parents were looking for her. But remember, Melissa was an adult. And Melissa thought she was helping police, or at least that's what she told us. Because I did ask her, why did you talk to them? She said that she loved Ben Kingan and was devastated by his death and she wanted to help.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

473.715

Can I just first tell you why those x-rays matter so much? As Stephanie had mentioned, whether there was a skull fracture or not is really, really crucial to this case. And at trial, according to the prosecution, only x-rays they had were dark. They handed over the defense.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

492.028

Those x-rays were taken during autopsy, but that pathologist at trial testified that he couldn't read them, that they weren't readable. So none of the experts, neither the defense or the state, say that they saw clear x-rays. And as Stephanie mentioned, we now know that at least one well-regarded expert said that if there was a skull fracture, it would be on that clear x-ray.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

51.334

We love being here. This is one of those very complicated cases, so an opportunity to talk more about it. I'm in.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

519.565

And they're not seeing it on that x-ray. So imagine that that was not at trial and didn't come out until this anonymous phone call.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

551.249

Are you the one who made that anonymous phone call? No, I did not. I mean, will you swear to me you weren't the caller?

48 Hours

Post Mortem | A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

562.704

I mean, obviously somebody let Paul Kalyuzinski know those x-rays existed. The bottom line is clear x-rays did exist on the coroner's computer.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

614.958

Well, this is when you're talking about what are the rules of the court system and what your heart says. So the state still stands by the idea that there's a skull fracture, although there are a lot of individuals who, including the pediatric neuroradiologist, Dr. Zimmerman, who says if there was a skull fracture, you'd be able to see it on those x-rays and they're not there.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

642.1

So that's still a big, important issue.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

726.928

But never dealt with these findings that someone may have manipulated evidence that was not given at trial. He never even addresses that.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

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But she ended up talking to us. I went up to her and I asked her to speak with us and she did not want to initially, but I said, sit down, we'll just shoot you from behind. So viewers were not able to see her face. We agreed to that. And we also agreed to only call her by her first name, Brenda. But it was helpful.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

869.501

It really was helpful to know that there's still a lot of questions about what happened in that daycare center before Melissa even worked there. I hope people realize it's undisputed that Ben Kingan had some kind of Injury just could be a bump in the head or it could be more serious than that. But that's not disputed at all. And it happened in the daycare center.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

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It happened three months before he died. And Melissa was not working there at the time. So that's why that's significant.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Boy Across the Street

1.144

I've seen a lot of stuff over 30 years, you know, some very despicable crime and things that are kind of tough to wrap your head around. And this ranks right up there in the pantheon of Rhode Island fraudsters.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Boy Across the Street

1032.253

Well, we all know, Emery, that we're not supposed to ever become part of a story. And I try really hard not to. But I've worked at 48 Hours for such a long time, and you spend so much time with people. It wasn't that I just reached out to touch her. She said to me that she was shaking. She's a 92-year-old woman.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Boy Across the Street

1052.163

who was going to her 13th parole hearing, was very worried that the man who killed her daughter could get out and hurt someone else. And I just put my hand on hers and she was shaking. And that it was just the right thing to do at that moment.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Boy Across the Street

1110.467

Well, I felt very blessed to be able to sit in there because we were not allowed to record any of it. But they did. Commissioners allowed me to sit in. And so, of course, I was dying of curiosity to get a sense of who Stephen Burns was. You know, there were other people that he had encountered during prison.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Boy Across the Street

1129.62

According to a complaint brought up at previous parole hearings, a couple of instructors said that he made them uncomfortable. Were they women, the instructors? Women, yes, both instructors. Sorry, both instructors were women. One, when she wouldn't allow him into a class that he wanted to get into, and another, when he did not think he got the grade he deserved. Mm-hmm.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Boy Across the Street

1155.604

And it wasn't so much that he said something to them, that wasn't the problem, but that the way he said it and the way he felt entitled, and I think you could hear it from the commissioner that the commissioners believe the same thing, that he just could not hear himself. He could not see his own behavior as troubling as it was. And so they found him unsuitable. It just, he has not...

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Boy Across the Street

118.228

Well, I'm very happy to be here. Thank you, Anne-Marie, because this case, as you're going to hear, was eye-opening on so many different levels. I've seen it all, but I hadn't seen this, and so I want to talk about it.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Boy Across the Street

1185.544

acknowledged, accepted what he did back then. That's what the family is concerned about.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Boy Across the Street

1208.481

And Nina, Nina saw him as... You know, the sports, the athlete, she was an athlete. And so he was like a brother and she trusted him. And the girls felt so betrayed by the guy across the street that took away their big sister and changed their lives forever. Right. It was a betrayal to every person in that family.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Boy Across the Street

1245.665

Again, that was eye opening to me, too. Just how much this one act affected this family forever. Harriet with her victims group where she helped change the loss and still goes to work every day at age 92. Right.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Boy Across the Street

1262.188

And then you have Nina, who had to testify by herself, and that because of that awful experience, became a prosecutor, focusing on victims of abuse so that other people don't have to go through that. And then Regina, who, remembering that her sister died in a hospital, became a nurse. So...

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Boy Across the Street

1286.471

It was an awful thing that this family went through, but every member of that family made their tragedy better for other people.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Boy Across the Street

1326.159

Anne-Marie, I'm just like you. People say, how can you deal with this after all these years, Erin? And I go, because I don't think about the horror. I think about the heroes.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Boy Across the Street

1383.703

I've seen a lot of stuff over 30 years, you know, some very despicable crime and things that are kind of tough to wrap your head around. And this ranks right up there in the pantheon of Rhode Island fraudsters.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Boy Across the Street

227.962

I'm as impressed as you are. We have these amazing producers, people who are willing to dig. And as you point out, they didn't go back 45 years. And they managed to find so many people from that time. And what that allowed us to do with this story was bring the past alive in a way that is remarkable, but also heartbreaking.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Boy Across the Street

254.221

And as you mentioned, Randy Haight, who was the patrol officer young back then, 45 years ago, and it's so moving to hear, you know, when he gets to the hospital, you know, He's wondering why no one in the family is there. But that's because they're in San Francisco. She's a student at the college and her parents can't get there yet. And so he doesn't leave her.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Boy Across the Street

277.193

He and another officer stay there until she dies and until the coroner gets there. And it's so moving. He's still friends with the family and even went to the very last parole hearing. Wow. And then to be able to talk to these now grown up roommates of both Katina. and Stephen Burns.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Boy Across the Street

298.243

And I think what really hit me was that event so struck Stephen Burns' roommate, Les, who really only knew him for a day, realized this was the first day of college, really. And he comes back with two really interesting stories. One, of course, is that Stephen had already come into that room and set up a shrine to Katina. And so I had asked him and I said, well,

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Boy Across the Street

324.841

Did he happen to mention that she had broken up with him? And he goes, no. He said, I saw more pictures than I'd ever seen. And also, I was struck by the fact that Les had told us that he had been watching Monday Night Football when Stephen came back. But Stephen told the police he had been there all night. So that gives you a real sense right away from the beginning who Stephen Burns was.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Boy Across the Street

374.461

Right, but Emery, there is something really special. Even though she never got a chance to live her life, she lives on in these people's lives. What was so interesting to me is they hadn't forgotten her. That one act by Stephen Burns... wasn't just, didn't mean just the end of her life or affect her family. It affected so many people's lives. And Les was talking as if it had happened yesterday.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Boy Across the Street

403.346

And Randy Haight, the officer who sat there, is still, you could see him thinking back to that night. So she never got a chance to live her life, but she certainly made an impact.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Boy Across the Street

431.206

Bernard Goldberg was the very first correspondent with 48 Hours. And I've been around long enough to remember Bernard Goldberg. and I actually joined as a full-time correspondent three years later. But he was the very first and really was a terrific correspondent at the time. And that was a time when 48 Hours, where we got the name, was we would spend 48 hours or more on a story.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Boy Across the Street

459.315

And so you really see it even when you see Bernard talking to the family during our hour of how much time he was spending with them because he was spending a lot of time with them on the fly as they were going to the very first parole hearing.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Boy Across the Street

479.324

Yeah, we would go everywhere with people. We would joke that they would be so tired of us. And I could tell when someone I was interviewing would say, Yes, Erin, because I've been there for 48 hours. So Bernard Goldberg spent a lot of time with his family to see what would happen at that very first parole hearing.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Boy Across the Street

517.248

Emery, we stay on stories for a long time. And yes, it was because there was the 13th parole hearing. And I have to tell you, remember I said this was eye-opening? In my mind, he was finally going to get out. I mean, I didn't realize all the elements that really go in to determine whether someone should get parole or not happened.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Boy Across the Street

566.731

Well, and the California law does allow for parole when somebody is judged to be suitable for parole. So you had to wonder what was the motive behind the family keeping him in. And so I did think we had to raise it. But they said he stalked her and he would never admit at these parole hearings that he had stalked her.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Boy Across the Street

587.85

And so their concern was that if he was ever out, he could still hurt somebody by stalking or controlling behavior, even if he didn't kill someone.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Boy Across the Street

627.782

Well, it's really interesting. The Solano said that when they first went to this trial, they thought that there was more attention and more concern for the defendant's rights than victims' rights. Harriet and Michael were not allowed into the trial because they were on the witness list. And back then, that was the thought that if you're going to testify at a trial, you're

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Boy Across the Street

651.303

You can't be at the trial because it could affect your own testimony. Nina, who was only 14, had to testify against Stephen Burns, the young man who had been her friend. She saw him as a brother. No one else was allowed to go in with her. Her parents weren't in the court. And so they did not want... to have other victims go through what they did.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Boy Across the Street

673.221

So Harriet made it her life's work to help other victims. And so now, because of Harriet's group, now a young person who has to testify goes in with a support person. So they've made a difference for other victims.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Boy Across the Street

700.649

I've seen a lot of stuff over 30 years, you know, some very despicable crime and things that are kind of tough to wrap your head around. And this ranks right up there in the pantheon of Rhode Island fraudsters.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Boy Across the Street

790.861

Well, every state is different, but what happens is at a parole hearing, the commissioners don't just decide whether you are suitable or unsuitable for parole. They also decide... how much time they're going to give you to clean up your act. And so it could be two years. It could be five years. And that's what happened.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Boy Across the Street

811.592

And so the Salernos, I mean, they didn't have to come back each time, but they did come back every single time.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Boy Across the Street

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So, of course, we asked Stephen Burns to speak with us. And I was hopeful he might, but he did not. What he did instead was suggest that we talk to Kevin Anderson. And Kevin Anderson did give us a lot of insight into Stephen Burns. And when I first met him, which was right before the 13th parole hearing, he said that he had worked with him while he was still in prison.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Boy Across the Street

875.486

He had gotten out on parole and thought that Stephen Burns had finally come to accept the behaviors that had led to the shooting. He even described what Stephen had told him about how he had looked at Katina and seeing the fear in her eyes. And another big question in this, which is almost as troubling as the fact that he shot his girlfriend, she didn't die immediately. He didn't call 911.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Boy Across the Street

909.223

So it wasn't just that he shot her, he let her die. He goes back to his dorm and starts watching Monday night football and never says a word. When I talked to Les, Les said he didn't even look nervous. So Kevin Anderson said to us, this time he actually admitted what a coward he had been. So Kevin thought...

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Boy Across the Street

932.276

This is what he's going to tell the parole board, this 13th parole board, and that he's finally going to admit to the behaviors that led to him thinking it was okay to kill his girlfriend if she didn't want to be with him anymore. But he didn't. No, he did not. So how does Kevin feel about him now? I've got to give a lot of credit to Kevin Anderson.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Boy Across the Street

954.573

I was very impressed with him because when he read this, the transcript from that 13th parole hearing, he was shocked. And so he wrote Liza Finley, who was the producer of this show. And God bless him. He said, oh my gosh, I was wrong. This guy is not ready for parole. Can you believe this? You know, Kevin Anderson said. And so

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The Boy Across the Street

983.545

I had to be back in San Francisco anyway, which is where Kevin Anderson is, and I went back to have him explain. And he's the one who said to me, you know, he might never shoot someone again, but he has not come to terms with his controlling behavior, and he could still hurt somebody without killing them. He could still cause damage.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The “No Body” Case of Dee Warner

1078.914

The only clues we have are from the warrant because this is pretrial. And those warrants talk about a security video from Dale and Dee's farm. And they had observed Dale looking for something near the welding equipment. And that, you know, stuck, it seems like, with investigators. That happened, you know, the week she went missing.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The “No Body” Case of Dee Warner

1115.632

Some other evidence that's in the warrant talks about how there were witnesses who saw Dale painting a tank the week after Gee went missing.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The “No Body” Case of Dee Warner

1162.173

Yeah, they took it to the border. There's a border crossing to Canada at Detroit. And they put this tank on a flatbed truck. And you see video, the local affiliates were there. And you see the truck leaving with that tank. And apparently they drove it to the border and used, it's called a radiograph. I didn't know that term before working on this story. But they say they saw a body inside.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The “No Body” Case of Dee Warner

1180.826

And the family says they saw that image. Oh, my gosh. It got to be a really profound moment. Oh, yeah. As Erin was talking about, they believed her to be dead. And so I think on one level, having it confirmed was a relief. But on another level, it was this incredible grief that had not been complete before because they had uncertainty. And now that changed.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The “No Body” Case of Dee Warner

1243.906

Yeah. And I think also when we were talking to her brother, Greg, He was frustrated that he wasn't learning more about the investigation. And Erin and I kept saying, that's very normal. It's really what they do. And it really probably would drive me crazy, too. But they have to protect the integrity of the investigation. So Greg's in the dark.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The “No Body” Case of Dee Warner

1260.301

He doesn't know what's going to happen, even after they make an arrest, what will come of the case in court without physical evidence, because they didn't have it at the time. So I think there was a thinking in his mind and, you know, among some of the other family members to kind of do concurrently anything they could do to kind of advance things.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The “No Body” Case of Dee Warner

1279.669

You know, you can have a wrongful death case in civil court once someone is declared dead. So, yeah, it was a step in that direction potentially, too. Where do you think stand with this case?

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The “No Body” Case of Dee Warner

1309.613

Dale has pleaded not guilty. We were in touch with his attorney a bit. I got to meet her when we attended the preliminary hearing when we'd been hoping she would sit down for an interview. She ultimately declined, which is very normal pre-trial, after Dee's body was found.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The “No Body” Case of Dee Warner

1324.466

She emailed me to say that Mr. Warner maintains his innocence and we're prepared to vigorously fight for him in court and present his defense. And then she went on to say, but we think it's best presented in court at this point and not to the media. So that was important to hear, especially in the context that the preliminary hearing was all before her body was found.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The “No Body” Case of Dee Warner

1344.459

So they are not shifting in their defense of Dale.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The “No Body” Case of Dee Warner

217.034

Yeah, I mean, obviously, it became a murder case when they arrested Dale, which was November 2023. But that's just the charge. That's not a conviction by any means. So, you know, police made that arrest two and a half years after D was reported missing.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The “No Body” Case of Dee Warner

309.383

Yeah, Cindy went out to Lenawee County in 2022. So she had been traveling back and forth. The family had vigils and rallies, various things happening in the community to try to get publicity for the case. And Cindy was present for a lot of that and just in contact with them for those couple of years.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The “No Body” Case of Dee Warner

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And that longevity you talked about when we first started this conversation, that's part of how we do our stories. And it was definitely part of this one and pretty critical.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The “No Body” Case of Dee Warner

348.228

Yeah. And, you know, it connects back into how Cindy Caesar, our colleague, got involved in this case. But Dee's sister-in-law, Shelley, was watching 48 Hours. She's a regular viewer, which we appreciate. And she was watching 48 Hours. story about a no-body homicide. And this investigator, Billy Little, in that episode says, you don't have a body, so what?

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The “No Body” Case of Dee Warner

372.343

You don't get to get away with murder because you're good at disposing of bodies. And Shelley tells Erin, she's like, I woke Greg up. You got to see this. And that's how they came to be connected to Billy Little was after watching that show.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The “No Body” Case of Dee Warner

413.635

I think there were some inconsistencies. Dale gave different accounts to different family members as they related it to us, and they also just felt like the threads of the stories weren't making sense to them. He had told them that Dee had had a migraine the night before, and they knew she got migraines. But when you have a migraine, it's pretty all-encompassing. You're pretty debilitated.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The “No Body” Case of Dee Warner

435.606

So she's somehow leaving the house early on Sunday morning with the migraine. I think her family members, when they were talking to us, just thought, this doesn't quite add up.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The “No Body” Case of Dee Warner

528.322

Yeah. So the night before Dee's reported missing, her daughter had stayed at her cousin's house. And the mom, the cousin's mom, had come over to pick Dee's daughter up and take her away and, you know, then was in touch with Dee later that evening by text to check in on her.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The “No Body” Case of Dee Warner

544.829

She doesn't get an answer right away, and then she gets the letter K. And now I don't know about you, but when I get the letter K text from someone, I'm like... What's up? Are we OK? And this was not a way that any friends or family of D ever experienced her to communicate.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The “No Body” Case of Dee Warner

601.82

Yeah, there were a lot of things that didn't sit right. I think her brother said, you know, she knew where the cameras were. If she were going to walk through to leave her ring, she would have had her middle fingers up and like, you know, march right in, I think is how he characterized it. Like it didn't sound like his sister.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The “No Body” Case of Dee Warner

614.953

And also no note, no communication after that strange letter K. Dee's family said, you know, it was a lot of things that weren't adding up.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The “No Body” Case of Dee Warner

707.758

And that connects, I think, back into the fact that using the press was a strategy, going out in public and the press being part of, you know, the public conversation was strategic and intentional for Greg Hardy, but also for the rest of the family. I think they saw the the power of it.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The “No Body” Case of Dee Warner

800.199

I mean, we were really surprised to hear this. It was actually Billy Little, the investigator who came to court. help Greg Hardy, who told us that no body conviction rates are actually higher. We ran it down and found a source that said 86% conviction rate. And we were really surprised to read that. But keep in mind, prosecutors decide which cases to prosecute, right?

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The “No Body” Case of Dee Warner

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So I think the thing about circumstantial evidence is it's usually an aggregate. You have to add things up and see what the picture is. And the more pieces you have, the more clear things, you know, hopefully become for a jury. And I think in a circumstantial case, there's that much more kind of diligence and attention. So maybe that's the reason. But we were totally surprised by that.

48 Hours

Post Mortem | The “No Body” Case of Dee Warner

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Yeah, so text messages were introduced at the preliminary hearing. The friend had shared these texts with the detective, and among them one where Dee had texted, I literally thought he could kill me. You know, he, quote, threw me at a dresser and describing her injuries. I have a large goose egg on my head and a sore neck. So there is some substantiation to this from those text messages. Yeah.

48 Hours

A Campus Mystery Unraveled

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He became very jealous and then the thing that caused me to end it was he broke into my apartment in the middle of the night.

48 Hours

A Campus Mystery Unraveled

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Mace and a hammer. I felt like I don't know what this man is capable of.

48 Hours

A Campus Mystery Unraveled

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The mystery deepens. A missing Virginia Commonwealth freshman, 17-year-old Taylor Beal, seems to have dropped off the face of the earth.

48 Hours

A Campus Mystery Unraveled

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Whoa, I just got chills.

48 Hours

A Campus Mystery Unraveled

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Taylor's missing, and I know Ben, and I know Taylor, and I want to talk about it.

48 Hours

A Campus Mystery Unraveled

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I realized they were looking for someone who was dead. They weren't looking for live Taylor anymore. And then they started showing me photographs that had been pulled off his computer, and they said, do you recognize this one, the one that you've got in your hands?

48 Hours

A Campus Mystery Unraveled

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I said, oh, that's right next to my parents' house.

48 Hours

A Campus Mystery Unraveled

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They said, oh, I just got chills, and I got goosebumps. And he said, that place is going to be important. We need to go there.

48 Hours

A Campus Mystery Unraveled

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I'm thinking, God, I feel so bad. I'm wasting their time. They could be doing other things. They could be doing something important.

48 Hours

A Campus Mystery Unraveled

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I said, yeah. It smelled like the end of something. The officer saw her before I did. He said, we found someone.

48 Hours

A Campus Mystery Unraveled

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He was a wolf in sheep's clothing. There was no way to know. My name is Erin Craville. I was a student when Taylor disappeared. I think that she was just a normal college girl and got mixed up with the wrong person.

48 Hours

A Campus Mystery Unraveled

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Starfleet is here to make sure no one commits murder.

48 Hours

A Campus Mystery Unraveled

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This is Taylor. This is my friend. And I will do what I can.

48 Hours

A Campus Mystery Unraveled

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She was a teenage girl, but she was still a responsible teenage girl. Taylor's VCU friend, Erin Crable. She wasn't the kind of person who would just go, hey, that motorcycle guy looks cool. I'm going to go drive off down the block with him.

48 Hours

A Campus Mystery Unraveled

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You were the only person in the world. All of his attention was on you. And he had all these crazy stories. He would steal cars and break the law, but he was reformed. He was your bad boy. He was the expert.

48 Hours

She Knew Too Much

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The girl who knew too much. Tonight's 48 Hours Mystery.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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Which is why Diane Fanning called her book her deadly web. Is it possible that Rainella Leith is just a very unlucky woman?

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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Prosecutors decided to try her for David Lee's murder first. In 2009, six years after his death, Raynella finally went on trial. But it turns out that was only the beginning. The jury deadlocked. 11 to 1.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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A year later, Raynella was back in court for trial number two. The case was the same, but this time jurors were unanimous. Raynella was convicted of first-degree murder and sentenced to life in prison.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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So were prosecutors. With Raynella behind bars, they dropped the murder charges for the death of her first husband, Ed Dossett, never expecting what came next. I would describe her as lucky. Very lucky. After she served six years, Raynella's conviction was tossed out. The reason? The trial judge had been seriously impaired with a drug addiction and was kicked off the bench.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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What was your reaction when you heard the verdict had been overturned?

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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Fourteen years after the death of David Leith. Call the jury in, please. It's now trial number three.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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And prosecutor Steve Crump's turn to try Raynella Leith. Is there a way to describe this case?

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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It's May 2017. Everyone is ready. The trial, one of the last of senior judge Paul Sommer's career, is set to begin. First to present, District Attorney General Steve Crump, in what all sides hope will be the last trial in this case.

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The Black Widow

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He argues Raynella's murderous plan unraveled the moment she fired that first shot and missed.

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The Black Widow

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You're describing a pretty cold-blooded killer.

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The Black Widow

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For the prosecution, the gun, a Colt 38 police special revolver, reveals some of the most important clues.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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Don Carman is a former Tennessee Bureau of Investigation agent.

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The Black Widow

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This picture of the cylinder was taken at the scene. The three fired rounds have small indentations or hammer strikes in the center of the casing. The unfired rounds do not.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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Prosecutors say that clockwise rotation of the cylinder tells the order of the shots.

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The Black Widow

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The first two cartridges are from silver Remington bullets. Fragments of those were found in the wall and David Leith's head. But the third is different. It's a gold Winchester found shot through the mattress. If that gold bullet was fired last, as the prosecution believes, that means it came after David Leith was already shot in the head, severing his brain stem.

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The Black Widow

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Knox County Medical Examiner, Dr. Derinka Malusnek.

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The Black Widow

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None whatsoever. Next, prosecutors turn to the blood spatter. These round drops of blood on the wall tell investigators that David's head had to be raised nearly a foot above the mattress when the bullet was fired.

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The Black Widow

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But the defense insists that the same evidence points to David Leith as the shooter.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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Raynella's team consists of Knoxville criminal attorney Josh Hedrick, along with Rebecca Legrand, a Washington, D.C.-based lawyer with a background in science.

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The Black Widow

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With no clear motive presented by the state, the defense starts with those three shots.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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And then raises doubts to Don Carman about the order of those three shots.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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But even if the prosecution's order of shots is correct, Kentucky State Medical Examiner and defense consultant Dr. Greg Davis says David Leith still could have been the shooter.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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Which is what he believes Dr. Milucinic should have done in this case. Remember, within 24 hours of David Lee's death, Dr. Milucinic called it a homicide. She had not yet seen records from his neurologist or received a complete medical history.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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In a previous trial, Dr. Malusik testified that medications found in David's system would have rendered him, and I quote, incapacitated. In other words, he would have been unable to kill himself. But in trial number three, Dr. Milucinic did not repeat that claim.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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Dr. Malusnik declined 48 Hours' request for an interview, but in Raynella's third trial, she stands firm that David Lee's death was a homicide.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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Dr. Davis, can you say unequivocally that she didn't kill her husband?

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The Black Widow

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but there's not enough evidence to say she did.

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The Black Widow

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But there is information Dr. Davis was not privy to.

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The Black Widow

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in a final and dramatic attempt to convince a jury of suicide the defense brings the blood-stained bed to the courtroom still preserved if the record could reflect i'm pointing to the hole in the middle of the headboard defense forensic expert celia hartnett i've marked the portion shows jurors how david leith could have fired all three shots

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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But for the prosecution, the most incriminating evidence isn't at the crime scene. It's at the barber shop, where Raynella called Cindy Wilkerson on the morning of the shooting. Raynella had already left David at home. She made the call from Park West Hospital, where she was visiting David's mother.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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The prosecution says the call was part of Raynella's elaborate alibi to prove she wasn't at home with David, but they say she miscalculated. Remember, Raynella told police she put breakfast by the bed and left the house around 9.30. She made the call to Cindy just 20 minutes later.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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Have you seen your father today? That's the question the prosecution wants burned into jurors' minds as both sides make their final case.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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As all eyes turn to the jury, there are things about Raynella Leith they'll never hear. They don't know about Ed Dossett. and they don't know about Steve Walker.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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Steve Walker's ex-wife was Ed Dossett's secretary. Their relationship, as it turns out, was more than just professional. In 1995, three years after Ed's death, Steve found out during divorce proceedings that the son he raised was actually Ed Dossett's biological child. It came as a terrible shock to Steve and Raynella. I mean, in some ways you felt that you were on her side.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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He could not have been more wrong. According to a police report filed by Raynella, on the morning of May 26th of that year, she found Steve, quote, acting psychotic near Ed's grave on the farm.

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The Black Widow

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She told police she began firing warning shots into the ground to chase him away, and that Steve then took the weapon and fled on foot. But when Steve filed his own report, he told a very different story. He says that same morning, Raynella picked him up at the auto shop where he works and drove him to the farm to talk about the affair.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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When they got to Raynella's barn, Steve says she suddenly pulled out a revolver. In a police interview, Steve told investigators Raynella then said, I'll kill you, you son of a bitch. Then I'll raise the son.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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But the former marksman missed. Steve started running, but tripped and fell.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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The police believed Steve Walker's story, and Raynella was arrested and charged with attempted murder. But she took a deal and pled guilty to a lesser charge of assault. After six years, her record was cleared.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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Twenty-two years later, she's hoping to walk away again. But as the jurors are ready to have their voices heard. As jurors, you are the ones that will decide the case. Something happens that no one sees coming.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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With her daughter by her side, Raynella Leath arrives at court for the final time.

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The Black Widow

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Before the jurors can decide her fate, there's just one more piece of business.

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The Black Widow

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It's a defense motion called a Rule 29.

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The Black Widow

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A routine request made in nearly every trial to throw out the case for lack of evidence. In most cases, the judge simply denies the motion and gives the jurors the case. Only two words are required, either motion granted or motion denied. But then, like so many times in the story of Raynella Leath, something completely unexpected happens.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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Not guilty. The judge, on his own, acquits Raynella Leath of murder. After 14 years of suspicion, six years behind bars, and three hard-fought trials just like that, it's all over. As the defense celebrates.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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David Lee's daughter Cindy sits stunned. The prosecution does too. I don't understand it. I don't have an explanation. And under Tennessee law, there's no appeal either because the judge made his extremely rare decision before the jury began deliberations. These jurors, initially shocked, become angry.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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So we asked Judge Summers, now retired, to make his case to 48 hours. And he agreed.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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Did you choose to do this, to end this case, to finally end this case?

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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Judge Summers believed that there was enough evidence for the jury to decide a homicide may have occurred, but he was convinced the prosecution didn't meet its burden to prove that Raynella Leith had the time or the opportunity to commit it.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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If you were so sure that there wasn't enough evidence for the jury to convict her beyond a reasonable doubt, wouldn't the jury have come to the same conclusion?

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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Judges sometimes make these extraordinary decisions when they fear jurors might be swayed by emotion and not evidence. And that may have been a factor in this case. While we will never know for sure what the whole jury would have done, we have a clue. If you had gotten to vote, how would you have voted?

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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How would you have voted? Guilty. How would you have voted?

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The Black Widow

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Do you feel Raynelle Aleth got away with murder?

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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For William McMichael, Jesse Capps, and Michael Persicano, it was the gun that pointed to Raynella as the killer. There's no way David Leith fired that third shot. And you don't believe the defense witness who said, well, you can have this spasm after death that pulled the trigger the third time?

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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What most convinced you, Jesse, that this wasn't just a murder, but that Raynella Leith was the one who killed her husband?

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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It wasn't just these three. They say shortly after the judge's decision, a majority of jurors gathered near the courthouse and came to the same conclusion. Admittedly, they did not deliberate, but they would have found her guilty.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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For David Lee's family, it's little consolation.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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Some in this town will always call her a black widow, but for Raynella Leith, none of that matters.

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The Black Widow

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Because as she leaves courtroom number two... How are you doing, Raynella?

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The Black Widow

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...she walks away a free woman.

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The Black Widow

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Did it cross your mind you might be letting a killer go free?

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The Black Widow

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So you're not saying that Raynella Leith is innocent. You're saying not guilty.

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The Black Widow

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Inside this courthouse in Knoxville, Tennessee.

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The Black Widow

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A real-life drama is taking place that rivals any Southern Gothic novel.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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Best-selling author Diane Fanning has written about this case and the players.

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The Black Widow

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Raynella Leath, a 68-year-old grandmother, is at the center of this extraordinary tale.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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And ever since 2003, the former nurse has been the prime suspect in the death of her second husband, David Leith.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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It was Raynella's 911 call on the morning of March 13, 2003, that sent police rushing to the Leaf home.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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These are audio and video recordings made by police at the scene.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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Listen to investigators as they begin wondering about that death called in as a suicide.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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Detectives wanted to establish where Raynella had been all morning, and she agreed to talk, the only time she's spoken on the record. She remembers watching television with her husband David that morning before leaving his breakfast on the nightstand.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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It was close to 9.30, she says, when she headed to the hospital to visit her mother-in-law. When she arrived home shortly after 11, she found her husband laying in a bloody bed with a gunshot to his head.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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The gun was believed to have belonged to David's parents. David's sudden death left Raynella a grieving widow for the second time. Her first husband, Ed Dossett, had died 11 years earlier. Raynella and Ed met at East Tennessee State University, where she was on the rifle team and studying to be a nurse. He planned to go to law school. What drew those two together?

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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They married and moved to Ed's 165-acre family farm in the tight-knit community of Solway, just outside Knoxville, where they raised cattle. and three children, Maggie, Eddie Jr., and Katie. Raynella was extremely protective of her children. They became the power couple in town when Ed was elected Knox County District Attorney General. Raynella was Director of Nursing at Park West Hospital.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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But their lives took a tragic turn when at the age of 43, Ed was diagnosed with terminal cancer. Nine months later, he died, not from his illness, but in a freak farming accident. But Raynella wasn't a widow for long. Six months later, she shot friends and family when she remarried. David Leith was a local barber and Ed Dossett's best friend and neighbor.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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David's daughter, Cindy Wilkerson, and his cousin, Beth Roberts, say the whirlwind romance was all the talk in Solway. What do you think he saw in Raynella? She's charming.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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But Rainella's newfound happiness was short-lived. Less than two years after she remarried, her 11-year-old son was killed in a car crash.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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Cindy says she began seeing changes in Raynella and her father's relationship. They didn't seem as happy as they were when they first got married. Five years later, more heartbreak. David was hospitalized. He began seeing a neurologist for signs of dementia and depression. In early 2003, Raynella says David's behavior became more erratic, concerned. She began making notes in a private journal.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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On January 19th, she wrote, Dave hateful today. I cried and cried. Three days later, things hadn't improved. Dave hateful, controlling, his way or no way. I cried. Seven weeks after writing those words, David was dead. What did you think had happened to your dad?

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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Can you connect Raynella to that weapon? Fingerprints?

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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Every haircut, every styling in the middle chair at this Knoxville barbershop reminds Cindy Wilkerson of her father, David Leith. It's the same chair he used for 39 years.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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Anyone see or pick up the gun?

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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Cindy inherited the chair in 2000 when her father suddenly retired at the age of 54. What he kept secret were all those visits to the neurologist. If he was suicidal over dementia, Cindy never saw it. When Raynella said your dad committed suicide, did you initially think, well, Well, maybe he did, but it's just hard to believe.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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To any of the bullets that were used in that gun?

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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And Cindy questioned why her right-handed father would have used his left hand to shoot himself above his left eye. He was totally blind out of that eye. As her doubts soared, so did her suspicions about her stepmother's role. And she wasn't alone. Within 24 hours, Dr. Dorinka Milucnik, the Knox County medical examiner, discounted Raynella's claim of suicide and ruled David Lee's death a homicide.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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That's a problem, isn't it, in this case?

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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Raynella became the focus of attention. It was clear to David's family what should happen next.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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Remember, Rinella was the widow of a district attorney general. Crime writer and 48 Hours consultant Diane Fanning says that was the problem.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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finding an outside prosecutor to take the Leith case dragged on. Making things more difficult, no one could figure out the motive.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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With the criminal case stalled, in March 2006, Cindy filed a civil suit against Raynella to stop her from inheriting David's estate. Prosecutors took notice. Three and a half years after David Lee's death, Raynella was charged with his murder. And that's when old suspicions surfaced about the death of her first husband. Ed Dossett had been found in a field in July 1992, surrounded by his cattle.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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He had apparently been trampled to death. Did anyone wonder about how Ed Dossett died?

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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What's more, folks wondered how Ed, weak with cancer and heavily medicated, even managed to get all the way from his house to the cattle.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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Diane Fanning says there had been a theory going around Solway that Dossett's death was actually about insurance. Raynella and the kids would get a bigger payout if it was an accident instead of cancer. It might have even been Ed Dossett's idea himself.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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Nearly a year after Raynella was charged with David Lee's murder, the same medical examiner who ruled that death a homicide reviewed Ed Dossett's file. Dr. Malusnik determined it wasn't cattle that killed him. It was a morphine overdose. It was a huge story. The widow of a district attorney general was now charged with murdering two husbands.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

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But on the stand, Vanessa stuck with her story until this question.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

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Matt even told Vanessa how he did it.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

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Nearly three years after Carrie's death, Crawford Long had all the proof he needed to finally indict Matt Baker. Oh, my gosh. It was unbelievable news for Linda Doolin.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

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In March 2009, Matt Baker was re-arrested and charged with Carrie's murder.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

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And the state star witness? Vanessa Bowles. I don't think she stole everything.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

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Carrie's mother, Linda, is surrounded by her family. To me, he looked smug.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

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Matt has always denied that affair, so no one in the courtroom was quite prepared for what his defense attorney, Guy James Gray, had to say.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

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When did you realize that Matt was lying about his involvement with Vanessa Bowles?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

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How tough was that guy?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

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That doesn't mean Gray says that Mack killed his wife. Instead, Gray goes on the attack and tells the jury that Carrie was in a precarious emotional state.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

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Gray also zeroes in on the lack of evidence.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

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Assistant DA Crawford Long expects to get help from a surprising witness.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

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Matt Baker himself. Matt was unusually talkative in the years before his trial. You're not nervous about talking. If it ever goes to trial, something you might say here could be used against you. And if it is, then you deal with it at the time. And that time is now. Matt's contradictions and lies are coming back to haunt him. She was awake? Correct. She was talking and she said goodbye to you?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

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While a defendant can't be forced to testify, everything Matt said already can be used against him at trial. There are interviews with 48 Hours. Did you have an affair with Vanessa?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

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Civil depositions.

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A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

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And his statement to police.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

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Matt's claim that Carrie was a despondent, dysfunctional parent is disputed by witness. To me, she never seemed better. After witness. To me, she seemed excited. Even her grief counselor.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

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That's right. OK.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

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You solemnly swear the testimony you've given this matter will be... Three days into the trial, Carrie's mom, Linda Doolin, finally comes face to face with the man she has convinced killed her daughter. I am... I'm sorry.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

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Linda testifies that after her daughter died, Carrie's grief counselor told her that Carrie had found crushed pills in Matt's briefcase. Carrie feared he was going to harm her. Linda later confronted Matt.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

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Security at the youth center where Matt worked.

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A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

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It was not reported. And there's Matt's claim that in the time it took paramedics to arrive, around four minutes, he managed to dress Carrie in her shirt and panties.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

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Get her to the floor. Oh, my. And perform CPR.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

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All while cradling the phone on his shoulder. Do you believe that he is moving her at all while he's on that 911 call? I don't even think he's in the room. Pictures taken the night of Carrie's death also contradict Matt's story. He told investigators that he found Carrie's body with both arms stretched out flat on the bed.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

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The proof? Crime scene photos, which show an uneven pooling of blood, or lividity, in Carrie's arms. The fact there was more lividity on her left arm as opposed to her right said what?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

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Matt visited online pharmacies, searching for the sleeping pill Ambien. Is your business, your internet business, a library or a store?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

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This witness, who flew in from Spain, says that pharmacy has one purpose.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

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He says Matt attempted to buy a generic form of Ambien and placed it in his online shopping cart. But when cross-examined by defense attorney Gray,

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

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And there's no evidence that he bought Ambien anywhere else or that he forced Kerry to take that or any other drug.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

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But the defense's biggest challenge is yet to come. I do. When the state star witness takes the stand.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

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Four days into Matt Baker's trial, the moment everyone has been waiting for.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

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On the stand, the prosecution's star witness, the self-confident, almost smug, 27-year-old teacher, Vanessa Bowles. Were you worried the jury might really dislike her? Oh, yeah.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

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Assistant DA Susan Schaefer has another problem with the witness.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

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No, I didn't admit to it. For years, Vanessa Bowles lied to everyone about her relationship with Matt Baker. The jury might just dismiss her as a liar. Sure.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

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One time I was sitting by myself in the church. Vanessa begins by telling the jury how she met Matt at church in the fall of 2005.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

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In early March 2006, Matt invited Vanessa to continue counseling. at his house.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

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I was extremely remorseful. I couldn't believe what just happened. But still, the affair continued, and so did Matt's bitterness towards his wife.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

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Just a few weeks later, Carrie was dead. Within days, Vanessa says, Matt told her exactly how he did it.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

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Under the guise of a romantic evening, Matt gave Carrie a mix of wine coolers and pills he said were sex stimulants.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

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But Vanessa says Matt had filled the capsules with crushed Ambien to knock his wife out.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

1861.266

Matt thought Carrie was dead, Vanessa says. So he was startled when Carrie suddenly gasped for air.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

1898.66

Even more devastating for Linda Doolin, her daughter didn't have to die. Vanessa admits she knew Matt was plotting to kill Carrie.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

1920.717

Vanessa even knew the day Matt intended to murder his wife, April 7, 2006. And you didn't report that to anybody? No. Vanessa could have saved your daughter. Yes, I know it. I know it. She knew what day your daughter was going to die. I know. And she never told anybody. I know. Two weeks later, a smiling Vanessa Bulls was by Matt's side, helping to chaperone Kenzie's 10th birthday party.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

1948.317

Has it not occurred to you that if he killed one wife, he might kill another?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

1997.025

But Matt Baker's lawyer, Guy James Gray, says Vanessa is a liar, pure and simple.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

2005.868

And when it's his turn to cross-examine Vanessa, Mr. Gray? Gray attacks her credibility.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

2029.834

When the defense presents its case, Gray only calls one witness, a forensic expert who speculates that traces of DNA found on the suicide note might be Carrie's.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

2053.9

Gray hopes this will create doubt in the minds of the jurors.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

2087.167

As they deliberate into the night... We have a note from the jury. ...the jurors have a series of questions for the judge.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

2158.257

especially in this case, after prosecutors lost their chance to put Matt Baker on the hot seat.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

2169.65

Defense attorney Guy James Gray couldn't risk it, he says, and for good reason.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

2177.136

The trap? This fireman's dummy at just about Carrie's weight when she died. This is very close to what Matt faced trying to move Carrie. Yes, quite close. The prosecution's plan? To have Matt Baker demonstrate in front of the jury what he claims he did after he found his wife dead and naked in their bed. 911, do you have an emergency?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

2203.663

Phone to his shoulder. Her lips are blue, hands are cold. Dressing her without sounding out of breath.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

2213.571

OK. Once he says that he has her dressed.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

2218.195

He has to move. How did you get her off the bed?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

2243.072

Because Matt didn't testify, the jury never got to see him do the demonstration. And as the hours ticked by, it seems like Gray made a wise call keeping Matt off the stand.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

2264.185

More than seven hours go by.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

2273.631

And finally, jurors reach a verdict.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

2282.558

Guilty of first degree murder.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

2299.449

What did you tell your client?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

2310.357

Incredibly, the attorney who once so believed in his client stopped trusting Matt once he confessed to the affair.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

2324.281

Prior to trial, Gray had asked to be taken off the case.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

2335.929

But Matt insisted that Gray remain his lawyer.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

2345.156

Guy, are you sorry you took on this case?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

2361.48

Still, Gray says he defended Matt the best he could under the circumstances.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

2375.914

At sentencing, Linda Doolin gets the last word.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

2400.433

Matt Baker's sentence... 65 years with the possibility of parole. Are you finally ready to admit that you killed your wife?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

2419.438

You're saying that Vanessa Bowles lied about it all?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

2423.299

Why would she lie about this?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

2431.823

How close did Matt Baker come to getting away with murder?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

2439.868

The Doolins ordeal was not over yet. Kenzie and Grace were still living with Matt's parents.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

2458.268

A year and a half after Matt went to prison, Jim and Linda were back in court, seeking custody of their granddaughters. The odds were not in our favor. To their surprise, they won. This is Grace's room. Thank you.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

252.566

I'm Erin Moriarty. Dirty Little Secrets.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

299.045

Linda and Jim Doolin are convinced that their daughter Carrie was murdered by the man they once embraced as a son-in-law, Baptist preacher Matt Baker.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

316.612

Matt has always claimed that his wife committed suicide, just as he told the 911 operator a little after midnight on April 8, 2006. It was 911.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

331.945

He said he went out to get a video and gas for his car. When he arrived home, he found his wife lifeless on the bed, an empty bottle of Unisom, and a suicide note on the table.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

349.38

Their daughters, Kenzie 9 and Grace 5, were asleep in nearby bedrooms. Matt says it was because of another daughter, Cassidy, that Carrie took her own life. She never stopped grieving for Cassidy, who had a brain tumor and died seven years earlier.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

373.292

Did it get better as the years went on?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

378.615

But Carrie's mom and her family did not believe that Carrie would have abandoned her living children. And that suicide note, it was typed, even the signature. Linda grew more suspicious when she discovered that there were numerous phone calls between Matt and a young parishioner named Vanessa Bowles.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

412.308

Matt certainly didn't seem like he had anything to hide. He voluntarily spoke with the Hewitt police a few months after Carrie died.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

430.259

And he wasn't shy about airing his grievances against the Doolins, who had been pushing the police to investigate.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

442.825

Matt patiently answered every question they posed.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

457.082

The police also questioned Vanessa.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

465.065

Who denied any affair with Matt.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

471.883

And that, it seemed, was the end of the police investigation. Linda was frustrated and felt the only way she'd know what happened to Carrie was to find out herself. So she hired attorney Bill Johnson and his team of investigators.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

499.801

Matt said he was only gone for about 40 minutes. But Kerry's body showed signs of lividity, the pooling of blood after death. The experts said it was unlikely that Kerry could have ingested drugs, died, and reached that state in such a short period of time. Moreover, records salvaged from Matt's workplace server were incriminating.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

533.568

Johnston felt the police drop the ball, but he was hamstrung. There was no autopsy, and the death was classified as suicide.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

559.275

Johnston turned to Matt Cawthon, an old friend who was a member of the Texas Rangers, the statewide law enforcement team. Cawthon agreed unofficially to help.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

578.069

To get those documents, Cawthon needed the district attorney's help. He was turned down flat.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

591.701

Cawthon persisted and finally convinced the authorities to conduct an autopsy three months after Carrie died. It was too late to test for drugs in her blood, but they did find Unisom in her muscle tissue, along with traces of Ambien, a drug Carrie was not known to take. The manner of death was changed from suicide to undetermined.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

618.45

In September 2007, a year and a half after Kerry died, the police now felt they had a homicide on their hands. Matt Baker was arrested and charged with murder. He was released on bond thanks to powerhouse attorney Guy James Gray, who took the case pro bono.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

645.908

And Gray says this is an injustice.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

706.514

Six months after Matt Baker was arrested, his fate changed again, dramatically.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

717.257

Assistant District Attorney Crawford Long had decided it was too risky to take Matt to trial, so he dropped the murder charges.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

736.246

But Matt wasn't off the hook. Kerry's mother, Linda Doolin, had decided to sue him for wrongful death.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

761.161

Linda's attorney Bill Johnston and his investigators were hoping any new evidence they might dig up for the civil case would help rebuild a criminal one.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

780.327

And Johnston had an advantage. In a civil case, he could depose Matt Baker under oath and on camera.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

816.825

Do you think Matt Baker knows what he's up against?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

827.185

What Matt didn't anticipate was that Crawford Long and fellow prosecutor Susan Schaefer weren't giving up because they too believed Matt killed Carrie.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

846.334

All the evidence prosecutors had was circumstantial. What they really wanted was the testimony of this woman. Vanessa Bowles, whom they suspected was Matt's lover before Carrie died. How important is Vanessa Bowles to this case? She's key. Key because prosecutors believed she knew some of Matt's secrets. So far, Vanessa has had little to say to law enforcement.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

882.725

The only thing she admitted was that she dated Matt and only after Carrie died.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

897.55

Did you believe her? No. Prosecutors had the phone records and a jewelry store clerk who saw Matt and Vanessa checking out wedding rings just weeks after Carrie died.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

913.652

Working with prosecutors was Abden Rodriguez, a savvy investigator with a reputation for convincing the most reluctant witnesses to talk.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

929.237

Rodriguez carefully studied Vanessa's interview.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

949.484

And for good reason. Rodriguez knew Vanessa had everything to lose if she admitted knowing anything about the crime.

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

968.749

But after interviewing her, Vanessa was still holding back. So the prosecution gambled and subpoenaed her to testify before the grand jury. Was that a little risky?

48 Hours

A Preacher's Secret, Part 2

985.162

Crawford Long gave Vanessa immunity, promising not to use her testimony against her. Abdon Rodriguez added a warning.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1009.698

Mary Mainland, a physician, is the Kenosha County medical examiner.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1023.356

But wouldn't somebody notice it if somebody is pointed in juice or in some drink?

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1034.483

Most of the ethylene glycol cases she's investigated were in fact suicides. But Dr. Mainland believes this was a murder and that Julie was poisoned sometime Tuesday night, two days before she died.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1055.134

And what were those?

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1061.336

But at first, toxicology tests showed no sign of ethylene glycol in Julie Jensen's system. Frustrated, investigators confronted Mark Jensen with Julie's accusing letter.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1078.762

Mark seems a little stunned. But finally... Mark denies he had anything to do with Julie's death. Like the police, Jam Boys believes Julie's words prove that she was murdered.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1104.246

But others read the same words very differently. What do you think this letter was?

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1117.497

You're saying that Julie wrote this letter to set up Mark?

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1158.551

It takes more than two years and three labs, but tests finally reveal a small amount of ethylene glycol in Julie Jensen's stomach. You do not believe she committed suicide? Out of the question. Assistant DA Angie Gabrielle and Bob Jambois, now a special prosecutor.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1186.83

In March of 2002, Mark Jensen was arrested and charged with the first-degree murder of his wife, Julie. I absolutely do not believe he did it. Mark's parents believe the police have it all wrong, that as a trained nurse, Julie is the one who knew all about drugs and poisons. How do you believe Julie died?

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1215.609

Dan and Florence Jensen say that Julie, after going on the home computer to do research, took the small amount of ethylene glycol herself, but never intended to die.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1227.118

You're saying that Julie Jensen didn't mean to commit suicide and that she wasn't murdered, but that she basically was trying to make it look as if she was being poisoned by Mark so that he would go to prison and she would end up with the kids and the house.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1253.404

And even Julie's letter, they say, was part of her plan.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1278.772

Listen to the odd wording, says Florence.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1301.556

But the Jensens aren't the only ones who think Julie may have orchestrated her own death. A forensic pathologist hired by Mark Jensen's defense called the letter contrived, unbelievable, and self-serving. What matters is what jurors will think of the letter. And they may never see it. By law, Mark Jensen is entitled to confront his accuser in court. But Julie Jensen is dead.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1330.949

So before trial, Jensen's attorneys argue that the letter should be thrown out of court. And shockingly, the judge agrees.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1357.004

Jambois decides to fight for the letter. His appeal, which takes another five long years, goes all the way to the Wisconsin Supreme Court.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1373.117

The state Supreme Court agrees. Julie's letter can be used at trial, but only if the state can show at a preliminary hearing that there's enough other incriminating evidence to point to Mark Jensen as the killer. Almost nine years after Julie Jensen's death, free on bail, Mark is now married to his lover, Kelly Labonte.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1398.064

As the hearing begins, he is looking and feeling confident, until suddenly, a surprise witness takes the stand. Your Honor, the state calls Ed Klug to the stand. Ed Klug, who used to work with Mark... Could you point to him? ...now claims that three weeks before Julie died, Mark told him he was looking up ways to kill her.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1428.409

Wait a minute, suddenly he talks about going on websites on how to kill his wife?

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1436.783

Flug and Mark Jensen were in St. Louis at a company convention.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1459.864

Yet Klug never reported the conversation to the police. So you find out that Julie Jensen dies a month after Mark Jensen tells you he's looking up ways to kill her.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1482.678

I mean, your life was busy, but we're talking about a possible murder.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1493.905

You never tell the DA's office?

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1495.766

But you never told him you had a conversation with Mark about killing his wife?

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1502.29

In fact, Klug only became involved because one of his co-workers tipped off the prosecutor. Klug was then ordered to testify.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1518.824

Do you believe that Mark did discuss with Ed Klug that night? No. The research he was doing or the idea of killing his wife?

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1538.688

But the judge believes Klug and suddenly raises Jensen's bond to more than a million dollars.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1550.471

Unable to pay it, Mark Jensen hugs his son goodbye and is taken to jail to await trial for murder.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1604.284

Julie Jensen's brothers struggle to understand why Julie never shared her fears with them. The defense says Julie planned this whole thing. She was going to commit suicide and punish her husband with it because he was having an affair. Isn't that a possible reason why she didn't tell anyone?

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1632.52

But will it make sense to 12 jurors? More than nine years after Julie's death, Mark Jensen goes on trial for her murder. And at the heart of the case is her letter. The judge will allow it in as evidence.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1660.285

Special prosecutor Bob Jambois wastes no time letting Julie speak, but he also begins the trial with a bombshell. Jambois no longer believes that poison alone killed Julie Jensen.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1691.138

Julie Jensen was suffocated? Why, after more than nine years with Jam Boys, suddenly change his theory of how Julie died? Because of this man, Aaron Dillard, and what he has to say.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1707.871

How do you know that?

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1717.867

Just months before the trial, Aaron Dillard suddenly came forward with a shocking story. He says Mark Jensen confessed that he had killed his wife, that at first he tried to spike her drink with a small amount of ethylene glycol.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1756.257

But according to Dillard, the poison didn't work.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1778.896

That's when Dillard says Mark Jensen took matters into his own hands.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1790.925

Does he tell you when she dies?

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1801.175

Dillard's story makes sense of something that has troubled investigators all these years, the odd position of Julie's face when her body was found. What do you mean her nose and mouth were pushed to one side?

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1824.502

The prosecution still believes that Mark Jensen poisoned his wife's drink.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1834.11

I have no objection.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1837.933

And in a rather startling demonstration, the Kenosha County medical examiner tastes a minute amount herself just to show the jury why Julie wouldn't have noticed she was drinking a poison.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1855.094

Sweet. But Dr. Mainland has changed her opinion on what actually killed Julie Jensen.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1875.563

All because of this man. But there is a serious problem with Aaron Dillard. And how did you meet him?

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1885.831

That's right, Aaron Dillard is a jailhouse snitch with a long record of fraud. He's got seven criminal convictions?

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1898.156

And this is your star witness?

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1901.137

But you're gonna put him on the stand and rely on winning over a jury in this murder trial on the guy that you wouldn't buy a car from?

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1925.298

Defense attorney Craig Albee goes after Dillard, who was released from jail in exchange for his testimony.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1947.224

The defense says that this whole story is just your get-out-of-jail-free card and that you made the whole thing up.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1964.014

And Dillard has at least four believers. Julie's brothers.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

1989.434

To establish a motive for murder, the prosecution calls Kelly Jensen, Mark's former mistress, now his wife.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

2004.663

But the defense says the affair wasn't a motive for murder. It was the reason for suicide. It's why Julie took the ethylene glycol herself and tried to blame it on Mark.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

2031.133

A defense psychiatrist testifies that Julie was suicidal.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

2043.407

Julie's own doctor concedes she was depressed.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

2057.074

And that's when another surprising witness is called, Julie's own brother, Patrick.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

2067.498

Reluctantly, he admits to the jury that at age 16 and angry at his father, he cut his wrist.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

2080.623

And do you still see that?

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

2088.766

Did you actually intend to kill yourself?

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

2094.492

Was there a side of you concerned that because of something you did so long ago, that could make the jury find Mark not guilty? Yeah, I was very afraid of that. Mark Jensen is the only person who really knows what happened to Julie Jensen.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

2116.789

But he decides not to take the stand in his own defense.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

2126.759

The jury will have to rely on what he told the police nine years ago.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

2176.69

The mystery of Julie Jensen's death has taken so long to resolve that both sides are ready for some answers.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

2198.576

In closing, Special Prosecutor Bob Jambois uses Julie's letter to convince the jury that she was poisoned.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

2218.891

While the defense argues that the letter is the work of a sick woman who wanted to punish Mark Jensen,

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

2233.694

Determining the truth was rougher than any juror could imagine. Eight of them and one alternate say they didn't believe the prosecution's new theory that Julie Jensen was suffocated. How do you believe Julie Jensen died? And suffocation? which means they also didn't believe the prosecution's star witness, Erin Dillard. Did anybody believe Erin Dillard? No. No.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

2264.569

And even after seven weeks of trial, they still found Julie Jensen herself a mystery.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

2297.793

But finally, the jury has a verdict.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

2315.759

Guilty of first degree murder. What do you think Mark was feeling inside? Devastated.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

2329.227

And when you heard the word guilty?

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

2338.095

In the end, Julie turned out to be the most important witness. The jury believed her letter was truly a cry for help. How important was the letter?

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

2362.031

This list was in my husband's business daily planner, not meant for me to see.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

2414.134

Less than a week later, Mark Jensen appears for sentencing.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

243.037

Pleasant Prairie, Wisconsin. It's about an hour north of Chicago on the western shores of Lake Michigan. It booms in the summertime. But when the Wisconsin winter settles in, the village becomes a cold, bleak place. No one who lived here was quite prepared for what happened on December 3, 1998.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

2432.363

But also in court is Mark and Julie's oldest son, David, now 18. And there is another letter, this time written by David and his brother, read by the defense attorney.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

2471.714

For the first time, Mark Jensen shows emotion, but the judge is unmoved.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

2491.569

Mark Jensen is sentenced to life in prison without possibility of parole.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

2509.754

Patrick's loving tribute to his sister, an album dedicated to her life.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

277.004

Bob Jambois, then the Kenosha County District Attorney, had a lot of questions about what he found inside the house on Lakeshore Drive.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

289.65

Julie Jensen, a wife and mother of two small boys, was still in her bed where her husband Mark had found her. So you did consider that she might have committed suicide?

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

332.884

Julie's husband Mark also struggled to explain his wife's sudden death.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

353.339

Mark's parents, Florence and Dan Jensen.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

367.498

Mark had been with Julie for 20 years, since they had been high school sweethearts.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

377.885

They started college together too, but Julie dropped out just one semester short of a degree in nursing.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

394.844

What drew Julie to Mark, say her brothers, was his drive, a young stockbroker on the move.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

419.82

On April 13, 1984, the night before Mark and Julie got married, Julie's mother, June, suddenly passed out.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

451.017

It was the first time that the Jensens realized that Julie's mother was battling alcoholism and depression. Was Julie afraid of ending up like her mom?

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

489.863

Shortly after Mark and Julie's first child, David, was born in 1991, their marriage was rocked by a revelation.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

507.721

Well, what was your reaction when you heard that Juliet had an affair?

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

519.426

Julie filed for divorce, but changed her mind after she and Mark went to counseling. I never pried.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

537.355

They had another son, Doug, in 1995, but the Jensen marriage was strained. By the fall of 1998, Mark began telling friends that his wife was depressed. He was overwhelmed by this depression.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

553.827

Julie went to see her family doctor, who prescribed an antidepressant. Two days later, she was dead.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

565.816

With no obvious signs of injury and an inconclusive autopsy, the cause of Julie's death could not be determined. She was miserable. She was distraught. Isn't it possible that this was just a very low time and she took her life?

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

591.4

Julie had never talked about suicide, and she didn't leave a note. But as it turns out, she did leave a letter.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

608.678

What did you think when you read that letter?

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

696.134

In the fall of 1998, Julie Jensen blurted out an unusual story to a woman she barely knew, her son's third grade teacher, Terese DeFazio.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

718.123

Julie also shared her fears with Ted and Margaret Voigt. When did Julie actually say to you, I think my husband's trying to kill me?

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

729.966

Julie's accusation shocked the Voights, who have been the Jensen's next door neighbors for seven years. Did they seem happy together?

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

740.689

But Ted says in August of 1998, after taking a new job, Mark Jensen seemed to change, becoming very critical of Julie.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

755.254

Two months later, Julie said Mark was acting suspiciously, searching the web for poisons and writing bizarre notes, which Julie photographed.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

798.983

To tell you the truth, I didn't know what to think of that. But by early November, Margaret and Ted had become very concerned about Julie.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

810.733

And what did she say?

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

824.241

And Therese suggested Julie go to a woman's shelter. Again, she said no.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

848.812

On November 21st, Julie handed Ted Voight a letter to give to the police if anything happened to her. Did you read the letter? No, I didn't.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

889.409

A little more than 24 hours later, Julie was dead. The Voights took Julie's letter to the authorities. Assistant District Attorney Angie Gabrielle. I took this picture and I'm writing this on Saturday, November... Julie's letter referred to the photo she took of a list, the same list she had mentioned to Terese DeFazio.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

939.744

District Attorney Bob Jambois grew even more suspicious when experts examined the Jensen's home computer. Someone had tried to erase its history, but not everything was gone.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

962.641

Kelly Labonte is a woman Mark met at his new job, and the email spelled it all out for investigators.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

979.372

Not exactly what you would be saying to a colleague at work.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

983.475

And that wasn't all Jam Boys found on the Jensen home computer.

48 Hours

A Toxic Relationship

991.57

Just as Julie had reported to The Voice, the computer's history revealed search after search for various poisons, including ethylene glycol, the main ingredient in antifreeze.

48 Hours

The Imposter

1012.788

Crowe gave Chris Bishop a white 1985 Nissan pickup like this one. But when Bishop went to register it at the DMV, there was a problem. The truck belonged to the long-missing John and Linda Soas. Police in San Marino wanted answers and asked the Greenwich police for help.

48 Hours

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Why is that so hard for you to say your name?

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Lieutenant Dan Allen was a detective in Greenwich back in 1988. Within days, Allen discovered that Chris Crowe was also Chris Chichester and was no longer in Greenwich. He had moved to New York City. Crowe had talked his way into another job at a large brokerage house and was living with a girlfriend, Mahoko Manabe, who hoped to marry him.

48 Hours

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When Detective Allen called the number he had for Crowe, it was Manabe who answered.

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But over the next few days, with his girlfriend's help, Crowe kept dodging Allen. If you had nothing to do with the death of John Solis, why wouldn't you talk to Detective Allen?

48 Hours

The Imposter

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Oh, you had no idea? How would I know? But here's what Mahoko Manabe said at trial.

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And she believed that?

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Now that Crow knew that the police were on to him, it was time once again to disappear, leaving Allen at a dead end. Did you ever meet him face to face? No. Did you ever talk to him on the phone?

48 Hours

The Imposter

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Crow laid low for about three years. And in that time, a Rockefeller was born.

48 Hours

The Imposter

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When you were growing up, did you get most of your ideas about America from watching movies and reading books? Books. Books?

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You once mentioned The Great Gatsby. Yeah, that's one of them. And of course, there was television. One program in particular.

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Perhaps unconsciously. That was your idea of what a blue-blooded American would sound like?

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Sometime in 1992, his riskiest, most outrageous identity was unveiled when the congregation at St. Thomas Church on New York's swanky Fifth Avenue met Clark Rockefeller.

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It was through friends at church that Clark Rockefeller met a bright young Harvard Business School student named Sandra Boss while playing a game that, coincidentally, involved fake identities and murder.

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Boston Rockefeller quickly became an item and later moved in together. She says she simply accepted his odd and eccentric behavior.

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while a Rockefeller courted his soon-to-be wife in New York. Back in San Marino, the mystery of John Soas' disappearance was about to take a sharp turn.

48 Hours

The Imposter

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The grave site was directly behind the guest house where a young man named Chichester once lived.

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Los Angeles Sheriff's Detective Tim Miley.

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The remains were so decomposed that they couldn't be officially identified, and the coroner wouldn't rule it a homicide.

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The TV show Unsolved Mysteries recreated the scene and even posted a picture of Christopher Chichester calling him a person of interest, but no one called him with a tip.

48 Hours

The Imposter

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But who was then the main person of interest at the time the body was found?

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Gerhard Schreider, who was now hiding out in plain sight as Clark Rockefeller, and telling everyone that he had just inherited what they would all come to believe was a multi-million dollar art collection. Writer Walter Kern remembers the first time he laid eyes on it.

48 Hours

The Imposter

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That artwork was one reason that Kern never doubted Rockefeller until years later when the whole world would learn that the art was expertly forged.

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Shortly after the art appeared, Sandra Boss married her Rockefeller.

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Kern met the couple in 1998, when the marriage was already in trouble.

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But they stayed together and even had a daughter. In 2001, Ray Storrow Rockefeller was born. But five years later, Sandra Boss filed for divorce. And when things got contentious, her husband's con finally unraveled.

48 Hours

The Imposter

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On July 27, 2008, FBI agent Tammy Hardy got a call from headquarters that a Rockefeller living in Boston had kidnapped his seven-year-old daughter during a supervised visitation.

48 Hours

The Imposter

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For six days, Rockefeller eluded even the FBI by changing his identity once again.

48 Hours

The Imposter

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But it all came to an end when a real estate agent in Baltimore saw the fake Rockefeller on the news. She realized he was the man she had just sold a house to. The FBI surrounded that house. And when they were certain the child was safe, they arrested her father without incident.

48 Hours

The Imposter

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At his kidnapping trial, the world met Christian Karl Gerhardschreiter, a German immigrant who had come to America as a young man and created a life that was complete fiction. Gerhard Schreider was tried and convicted.

48 Hours

The Imposter

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Although his defense team tried to argue that their client was delusional.

48 Hours

The Imposter

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And actually believed he was a Rockefeller. But that's not the man Federal Agent Tammy Hardy met the night he was arrested.

48 Hours

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Is he dangerous?

48 Hours

The Imposter

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In California, detectives Tim Miley and Dolores Scott were also convinced Gerhard Schreider killed Linda and John and were working against the clock to prove it before he could serve his time on the kidnapping charge and then disappear again.

48 Hours

The Imposter

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Unmasked at last, Christian Gerhardtschreider now has a new identity, inmate number 2800458. Which persona did you like the most? Who did you like being the most?

48 Hours

The Imposter

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Gerhard Schreider, aka Clark Rockefeller, was serving a four to five year sentence for kidnapping his daughter when he was suddenly on the move again, hauled from a Massachusetts prison to a California jail, where he would now face charges for the murder of John Soas. LA County Sheriff Detectives Tim Miley and Delores Scott led the cold case investigation.

48 Hours

The Imposter

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Did you know what you were getting into when you first started this investigation?

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It took four years, four years of our lives, right?

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The detectives had to determine exactly how John Soas died. The problem was all they had to work with was the victim's skull, and it was in pieces and had to be reconstructed by a special lab in Hawaii.

48 Hours

The Imposter

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And that's when forensic pathologist Dr. Frank Sheridan was finally able to determine how John Soas had died. He had been viciously bludgeoned. How do you know that? How can you tell?

48 Hours

The Imposter

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Dark edges, says Dr. Sheridan, mean the fractures occurred at the time of death and not when the body was unearthed.

48 Hours

The Imposter

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How many times do you think John Soas was hit here?

48 Hours

The Imposter

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But now, how to prove the killer was Gerhard Schreider. Soas was buried just feet from the guest house where Gerhard Schreider once lived, and his body wrapped in plastic bookstore bags traced to colleges that Gerhard Schreider had attended. Yet no DNA, no fingerprints belonging to the defendant were found.

48 Hours

The Imposter

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Right, but you've got a jury that might say reasonable doubt.

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The Imposter

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In an L.A. courtroom in March of 2013, Christian Gerhartsreiter went on trial for the murder of John Soas.

48 Hours

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Gerhard Schreider's defense is that Linda Soas is the one who killed her husband and is alive and hiding from authorities. The proof? These postcards in Linda's handwriting that were sent to her family and friends from Europe after she disappeared. But to Walter Kern, this was classic Gerhard Schreider.

48 Hours

The Imposter

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Like a scene from a Hitchcock thriller, Kern says, the defendant carefully concocted the couple's disappearance.

48 Hours

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But even after nearly three decades, Linda nor her body have been found. Isn't it possible that Linda's out there just under a different name doing what Chris did?

48 Hours

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Detective Miley says that Linda couldn't have sent the postcards. DNA taken off the stamp doesn't match Linda's, but it also doesn't match the defendant.

48 Hours

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John Soas' younger sister, Ellen, attended the trial every day and says there is no way that Linda would have killed her brother.

48 Hours

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Ellen says there's far more evidence that points to Gerhard Schreider.

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That's how Lieutenant Dan Allen of the Greenwich PD answered.

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And how did he miss someone burying the body right behind his house, when according to trial testimony, it would have taken the killer several hours? If Linda, in fact, killed her husband, wouldn't you have seen her burying the body?

48 Hours

The Imposter

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As the case goes to the jury, Gerhard Schreider is feeling confident. I believe it because I know for a fact

48 Hours

The Imposter

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What should I call you?

48 Hours

The Imposter

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As a packed courtroom gathered to hear the verdict in the murder trial of Christian Gerhardt's writer, the man who once called himself Rockefeller looked confident, while the prosecutor, Habib Balian, seemed nervous.

48 Hours

The Imposter

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Walter Kern, who recently wrote Blood Will Out about his former friend, attended the trial for the New Yorker magazine.

48 Hours

The Imposter

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Ellen Soas and another brother, Chris, were just as worried.

48 Hours

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But it's a bittersweet victory because a painful question still remains. Where is Linda Soas? Do you believe then that Christian Gerhard Schreider also killed Linda? Yes.

48 Hours

The Imposter

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Do you think we'll ever know what happened to Linda?

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I was curious how the jury felt about Linda and had the opportunity to ask the foreperson. Did you feel Linda had anything to do with it?

48 Hours

The Imposter

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So did you believe at the end of the trial that if Christian Gerhardt Schreider killed John, he probably killed Linda, too? Yes. Do you think we'll ever really know what happened to Linda Savas?

48 Hours

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Los Angeles County Sheriff Lee Baca. Was justice done in this case?

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The day I spoke with Gerhard Schreider, he had just been sentenced.

48 Hours

The Imposter

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America has long been the land of opportunity. And in 1982, there were few places more inviting than San Marino, California, an opulent suburb of Los Angeles that felt like a small town. It was sort of an Andy Hardy existence. Like a wealthy Mayberry? Well, that could be. and the perfect setting for English royalty. You knew him by what name? Christopher Chichester the 13th.

48 Hours

The Imposter

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The 21-year-old baronet had a posh accent and old world charm and made sure that he was properly introduced.

48 Hours

The Imposter

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And the most prestigious, the perfect place to charm his way into San Marino high society.

48 Hours

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Vanity Fair reporter, 48 Hours consultant, and author of The Man in the Rockefeller Suit, Mark Seal.

48 Hours

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So much so that he started making elaborate plans for the city, none of it setting off any alarms among the trusting folk.

48 Hours

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Police say that you are a con artist, a con man. What do you call yourself? Who did I con? If not a con artist, what would you call yourself?

48 Hours

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It was through friends at church that Chris Chichester reportedly met wealthy divorcee Ruth Soas, better known as Dee Dee. Dee Dee had a small guest house in the backyard of her San Marino home. Legally, she wasn't allowed to rent it out, but the 65-year-old had been running out of money. So when she let Chichester move in, it had to be their secret, something that suited her new tenant just fine.

48 Hours

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But all the while, he lived here in this guest house, where authorities believe he turned from con man to killer.

48 Hours

The Imposter

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While the young con man was living in their backyard, John and Linda got married and made plans to move out on their own. For more than two years, Dee Dee, John, Linda, and Chichester seemed to have coexisted without a peep. Did she ever express any concern about the tenant? Nothing. Linda's best friend, Sue Kaufman. But your memory is that she thought he was creepy.

48 Hours

The Imposter

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Tell me about John and Linda. How well did you know them?

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Well, you were living in that guest house for almost two years while they were living with John's mother.

48 Hours

The Imposter

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It was early February 1985 when something very strange happened. John and Linda Soas disappeared. At first, no one was really worried. Just days before they vanished, Linda told several people that she and John were going off on a secret government mission to New York. Did Linda tell you what government agency was hiring her husband?

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The Imposter

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At any point, did Linda seem worried about this trip to New York or about this job that her husband was offered? Not at all. She didn't say how he got offered the job?

48 Hours

The Imposter

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The real story wouldn't come out until 28 years later, when the state of California put Chris Chichester, also known as Clark Rockefeller, on trial for the murder of John Soas. The prosecutor believes he also killed John's wife, Linda.

48 Hours

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Aaron, don't put any words in my mouth. And efforts to get to that secret are met with resistance. Judy, Judy, we gotta stop this. Whenever I got a little too close, he tried to get 48 Hours producer Judy Ryback to stop me. You know, you gotta stop that, Aaron.

48 Hours

The Imposter

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And even tried to walk out.

48 Hours

The Imposter

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But I kept him in his chair long enough to ask, did you kill John Sores?

48 Hours

The Imposter

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Sometime in May 1985, four months after Linda and John Soas vanished from San Marino, Christopher Chichester did the same. About a month after that, 3,000 miles away in Greenwich, Connecticut, Christopher Crowe appeared, once again in church.

48 Hours

The Imposter

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Twenty-seven years later at the trial, Chris Bishop took the stand to describe the man he knew as Chris Crow.

48 Hours

The Imposter

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In the 1980s, the classic series from the 50s was remade. And sure enough, there was a Christopher Crowe in the credits. Of course, it wasn't this Chris Crowe. But no one seemed to question the 24-year-old's story.

48 Hours

The Imposter

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Nor did anyone question him when two years later, the television producer evolved into a bond trader on Wall Street.

48 Hours

The Imposter

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Because we always start this way with an interview. Could you introduce yourself, saying, I am?

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The Imposter

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Didn't you have to lie to get that job?

48 Hours

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Richard Barnett was hired to work under Crowe, who claimed to be royalty.

48 Hours

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You took a job with a securities company as the head of a corporate bond department with absolutely no experience.

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Never sold a bond.

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How unusual is that? Impossible. It took the better part of a year, but Crow was finally fired from Nikko. Meanwhile, back in California, Dee Dee Soas died heartbroken, believing her only son John had abandoned her. Shortly afterward, Chris Crow of Connecticut did something that would eventually put Chris Chichester of San Marino back on the radar in connection with the SOA's disappearance.

48 Hours

The Imposter

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Well, who are you? I don't think everybody does know who you are.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

1027.133

Tamar Hodel must have felt a similar chill when as a teenager in 1949, she ran away from her father's home. She told police what had been going on there.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

1051.994

The well-known doctor was put on trial, charged with offering his 14-year-old daughter to several of his friends at an orgy.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

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But in the courtroom, a parade of family members testified that Tamar made up the story.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

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What was your reaction when the verdict was acquittal?

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

1115.148

But George Hodel's troubles with the law were far from over. During the incest investigation, police got a tip that Hodel had known Elizabeth Shore before her murder. Tamar believes her father knew he had become a suspect.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

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When all of this was going on, Steve was just a kid. But as an adult, it began to make sense. It's when he began sorting out the details of his father's past and the Black Dahlia case that he found the two stories merging.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

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Steve Hodel was convinced the photos in his father's album were indeed of the Black Dahlia.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

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But what did catch Steve Hodel by surprise was one of the many taunting cards and letters the killer sent to newspapers. It was this one, written by hand. Turning in Wednesday, January 29th. Had my fun with police. Black Dahlia Avenger.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

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Steve Hodel took his suspicions to an old friend, Deputy District Attorney Stephen Kay.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

1226.314

Kay tracked down the Black Dahlia file in the DA's office, a box of investigative notes and transcripts that no one had touched for over half a century.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

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When investigators for the Los Angeles DA's office began questioning Tamar Hodel about her father, it was clear there was more than the 1949 orgy on their minds.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

1295.779

but she never told her younger half-brother, Steve. So years later, when going through the DA's file on the Black Dahlia case, Steve Hodel got the shock of his life. In 1949, two years after Elizabeth Short was murdered, the district attorney had begun to zero in on a suspect.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

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Deputy District Attorney Stephen Kaye says that in the file is information from a female witness who told authorities that George Hodel definitely knew Elizabeth Short. Do you remember the Black Dahlia case?

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

1341.824

And then there's Walter Morgan. He's 90 years old now, but back in the day, he was a young investigator working for the LA District Attorney who took over the Black Dahlia investigation in 1949.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

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But that's not all he did. In fact, he did something then he couldn't do today, at least not legally. Morgan, along with police detectives, came here to the Franklin house, using a plastic identification card to open the door. The cops slipped into the house and surreptitiously planted eavesdropping devices in here.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

1387.698

For the next 40 days, 24 hours a day, detectives listened to hundreds of Dr. Hodel's private conversations.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

1402.656

While the recordings no longer exist, the transcripts are in the DA's file.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

1431.4

The secretary was Ruth Spalding. Her death certificate blames a drug overdose. Despite the statements captured on wire recordings in the spring of 1950, the D.A. abruptly stopped investigating George Hodel. Even more surprising, the chief investigator of the case, Frank Jemison, summed up the evidence saying it tends to eliminate this suspect.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

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Do you believe that at least the lieutenant in charge, Jemison, really thought that George Hodel should have been eliminated as a suspect?

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

1482.01

So why did the DA stop looking at George Hodel? Perhaps the answer is also in those secret recordings.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

1502.427

What do you think he's referring to there? Paying off someone in the DA's office?

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

1521.578

But it sounds like you think there may have been a cover-up of some sort.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

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In fact, 48 Hours has learned that in 1950, both the DA and the LAPD stopped pursuing the Black Dahlia case, even though several investigators later told their relatives that they knew who the killer was.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

1548.448

And actor Jack Webb... My name's Friday. who played a cop on television and had close friends on the force, told an acquaintance that the chief of detectives had specifically described the Black Dahlia killer as... A doctor in Hollywood who lived on Franklin Avenue. The very street where George Hodel lived.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

1575.208

And it's important to remember that back in 1949, the LAPD was a dirty department rocked by scandals involving cops and gangsters, prostitutes and payoffs. A time and a place crime writer James Elroy knows well.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

1613.856

Did the LAPD allow a killer to go free?

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

1621.94

Can modern technology help with the mystery of the black dahlia?

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

1663.973

Before she was known only as the Black Dahlia, Elizabeth Short was just another struggling young woman.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

1686.071

She was, says Steve Hodel, like so many dreamers before her who had come to post-war Los Angeles.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

1697.28

How did she support herself?

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

1710.967

But that clean-cut image of Elizabeth Short did not sell newspapers. Crime novelist James Elroy. How was Elizabeth Short portrayed in these years since she was killed?

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

1759.81

Mary Pacios was a neighbor of Short's back in her hometown of Medford, Massachusetts.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

1775.785

Her beauty certainly entranced men. After Short was murdered, a lot of the men she knew became suspects. Among them, Mark Hanson, a nightclub owner reportedly obsessed with Elizabeth Short. And Glenn Wolf, one of Short's landlords, described to police as a sexual maniac. But they can be eliminated, says Hodel, for one simple reason. the condition of Elizabeth Short's body.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

1820.728

48 Hours decided to put the theories of Steve Hodel, the former homicide detective, to the test.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

1837.666

We asked Dr. Mark Wallach, chief of surgery at St. Vincent's Hospital in New York, to look at the crime scene photos as well as the autopsy.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

1855.073

So you're saying you think it must have been a doctor?

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

1859.973

While Steve Hodel's father didn't actually practice surgery, he excelled at it in medical school.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

1871.656

There are other pieces of the puzzle that convince Steve Hodel his father was the killer. Take the handwritten notes the killer sent newspapers right after Elizabeth Short's murder.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

1887.188

Let's take a look at the uppercase forms of the letter N. We then asked John Osborne, one of the most respected document examiners in the field, to compare letters that killers sent to the newspapers with examples of handwriting from Dr. George Hodel.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

1926.747

And what about the photographs of the mystery woman found in the album, the ones that started Steve Hodel on his investigation in the first place?

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

1940.063

Is this, in fact, Elizabeth Short?

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

1947.211

Suni Chapman is a forensic artist who uses and distributes E-Fit, facial identification software that helps create detailed sketches of suspects for police investigations.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

1963.362

Chapman was able to compare one of the photos of the mystery woman to a picture of Elizabeth Short and initially saw a lot of similarities.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

2013.228

But none of these expert opinions changes Steve's.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

2019.551

You mean you actually entertain the possibility that those two pictures that started you on this investigation might not be Elizabeth Short?

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

2028.537

But you still then, even if you started for the wrong reason, you ended with the right result. Exactly. That's because Steve Hodel says he's uncovered yet another clue that points to his father as the killer. This photo done by Dr. Hodel's close friend, the artist Man Ray.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

2065.749

Steve believes his father posed Elizabeth Short's body to mimic this classic art photo titled The Minotaur, the mythical beast that devoured young maidens. Her arms were positioned like the horns.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

2091.492

Deputy District Attorney Stephen Kaye not only agrees with Steve Hodel's theory, he thinks the cuts found across the victim's mouth and face were meant to mimic another Man Ray work, The Lovers.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

2109.753

After Steve O'Dell published a book, the LAPD was willing to hear his theories, but not to open the original police files on the case. Until now.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

2135.589

Steve Hodel's theory continues to fascinate and intrigue readers, despite the questions raised by 48 Hours.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

2157.115

Hodell still has powerful allies. Assistant District Attorney Stephen Kaye believes Hodell's father was the killer.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

2177.782

Crime novelist James Elroy is also convinced.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

2186.052

But there are also plenty of skeptics. Do you believe that Steve Hodel has solved the murder of Elizabeth Short? No. You don't? No. Mary Passios believes that Hodel relies too much on speculation in the case against his father.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

2209.679

And the Los Angeles Police Department agrees. A year and a half after the district attorney opened his files, the LAPD finally revealed in an off-camera briefing the secrets of its own Black Dahlia investigation. No surprise, Dr. George Hodel was at one point a major suspect, but police say he was only one of 22 major suspects, seven of whom were doctors.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

2239.286

Police also contradicted Steve Hodel and claimed there was no proof that his father even knew Elizabeth Short. But the Los Angeles Police Department has its own credibility problems. The LAPD now admits that in the years since Elizabeth Short's murder, virtually all the physical evidence in this case has disappeared. The police aren't sure how, but it has simply vanished from the files.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

2267.059

The bottom line, LA's most famous unsolved murder may never be solved.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

227.011

To crime writer James Elroy, the brief life and horrific death of Elizabeth Short is a classic American tragedy known as the Black Dahlia case.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

2288.306

Shocked and angered by the LAPD's response, Steve Hodel also dismisses the findings of two handwriting experts, our own and the LAPD's, who both said they were not convinced that the handwriting in the killer's letters matched Dr. George Hodel's.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

2311.656

Most people would be happy to hear that the LAPD doubts that his father is a killer. Why aren't you? Why are you so determined to prove that he was in fact the black Dahlia killer?

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

2324.934

Whatever the truth about Dr. George Hodel, he is still causing pain for the people closest to him. There is Steve, the son struggling with conflicting emotions for the man he believes is both a monster and his father.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

2350.843

Was there any sense of revenge against your father by publishing this?

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

2368.072

And there is Tamar, Steve's half-sister, who never got over the trauma of being molested at age 14 by her father, Tamar's old friend, Michelle Phillips.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

2385.28

And if Steve Hodel is correct, the ultimate victim of his father was Elizabeth Short.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

242.583

A story about love and loneliness, murder and madness, played out in the city of dreams, Los Angeles.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

2424.882

And again, almost six decades after her brutal killing, The Black Dahlia, the feature film, is set to play upon a mystery.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

2434.568

And the imaginations of millions of Americans.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

2440.371

And now real movie stars like Scarlett Johansson. You mark? Hillary Swank. You know, not being able to solve a murder of that caliber, I think was a pretty big deal. And I think that was the infatuation that people have.

48 Hours

The Black Dahlia Mystery

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And action! They will become part of a new story that's already a Hollywood legend.

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The Black Dahlia Mystery

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We may never know for sure who killed Elizabeth Short or whether George Hodel was the Black Dahlia killer. He fled the United States just days after the district attorney stopped investigating him in 1950. not to return until 40 years later, when the search for the killer had long gone cold.

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The Black Dahlia Mystery

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A mystery, but to crime writer James Elroy, one with a perfect ending.

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The Black Dahlia Mystery

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It's the most famous unsolved murder in Los Angeles history. A beautiful young victim, a cunning psychopathic killer, a real life mystery that's inspired countless movie makers and writers. from Double Indemnity to Chinatown to L.A. Confidential. Even the nickname The Black Dahlia is straight out of the movies. The Blue Dahlia was a nightclub in a 1946 crime film.

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The Black Dahlia Mystery

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Newspapers adapted that title to fit the Elizabeth Short case. And the Black Dahlia legend was born. The mystery behind the legend continues to inspire great storytellers. Director Brian De Palma. Cut. And a cast that includes Hilary Swank. What do I have to do to keep my name out of the papers? Scarlett Johansson. I'm scared. And Josh Hartnett.

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The Black Dahlia Mystery

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Once again brings the twisted tale of the Black Dahlia to the big screen.

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The Black Dahlia Mystery

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Say you care, say it. It's short.

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The Black Dahlia Mystery

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Director Brian De Palma.

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The Black Dahlia Mystery

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Steve O'Dell was just five years old when Elizabeth Short was murdered. The crime scene. We're just coming up here now. As a cop, he worked the same Hollywood streets Elizabeth once knew.

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The Black Dahlia Mystery

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For over 17 years, he investigated 300 murders. The Black Dahlia case was just another cold case. But after he retired, it would come to haunt him.

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The Black Dahlia Mystery

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Do you have any idea why the body would be left here?

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The Black Dahlia Mystery

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The killer got what he wanted. For weeks, a terrified city watched as the search for the murderer unfolded. There were dozens of false confessions, hundreds of other suspects questioned and cleared. The killer even wrote letters taunting the police and also sent Elizabeth Short's personal address book to a local newspaper.

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The Black Dahlia Mystery

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But after the biggest manhunt in LA history, the murder was listed officially unsolved. It stayed that way for 58 years.

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The Black Dahlia Mystery

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Mary Pacios has never forgotten Elizabeth. Elizabeth was her babysitter and idol in their working-class neighborhood of Medford, Massachusetts, outside Boston.

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The Black Dahlia Mystery

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A vibrant young woman growing up in a dark, drab time, the height of the Depression.

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The Black Dahlia Mystery

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Post-war Los Angeles was a boomtown, overrun with ex-servicemen, starstruck wannabes... Here's a gorgeous number in blue knitted wool. ...and hustlers.

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The Black Dahlia Mystery

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then as now a place where pretty faces were a dime a dozen and life could be tough most of the girls are applauded thanked and then quickly forgotten until the next contest comes along she was broke and she was borrowing money elizabeth became a hollywood hanger-on going out on the town each night

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The Black Dahlia Mystery

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usually with a different guy, to places like the Frolic Room, which looks pretty much the same now as it did back then.

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The Black Dahlia Mystery

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Her last night on Earth was January 14th, 1947.

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The Black Dahlia Mystery

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It's a Wonderful Life was playing at Hollywood's Pantages Theater. Around dawn the next day, a mysterious black car was seen at the spot where Elizabeth's body was later found. A black car, very similar to the 1936 Packard owned by Steve Hodel's father, Dr. George Hodel.

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The Black Dahlia Mystery

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And that's you here?

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The Black Dahlia Mystery

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And that's your father?

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The Black Dahlia Mystery

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George Hodel was a brilliant man with an IQ of 186, a point higher, he would say, than Einstein's. He began as a child musical prodigy, studying in Paris with Madame Montessori. After a stint as a newspaper reporter at the age of 16, he sailed through medical school, studying surgery,

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The Black Dahlia Mystery

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He settled in Los Angeles, running the county's venereal disease clinic, where it was rumored he treated some of L.A. 's top brass. A man with family money who lived in an exotic house in the middle of Los Angeles that was as eccentric as its owner.

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The Black Dahlia Mystery

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Tamar Hodel was one of 11 children the doctor had by five different women. She and her half-brother Steve remember their father's house as a place where artists and movie people came for flamboyant parties, presided over by the dynamic George Hodel.

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The Black Dahlia Mystery

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George Hodel's charm was certainly not lost on his son Steve. The two remained close until 1999, when the doctor died in his high-rise apartment in San Francisco at the age of 91.

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The Black Dahlia Mystery

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To this day, Steve O'Dell isn't sure what it was that made him compare pictures of the Black Dahlia to snapshots his father had saved of a mystery woman.

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The Black Dahlia Mystery

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The search for answers became an obsession. Steve spent months combing through newspaper accounts, talking to old timers, and traveling back to his childhood.

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The Black Dahlia Mystery

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Steve revisited the exotic house on Franklin Avenue in Hollywood.

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The Black Dahlia Mystery

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Where he and his brothers lived off and on with their father in the late 1940s. When we were living here, there was nothing but a large white polar bear rug in here. He suspects one of the pictures from his father's album was taken here.

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The Black Dahlia Mystery

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It was literally a house of secrets.

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The Black Dahlia Mystery

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Complete with a secret room where the children were never allowed to go. Lo and behold. What did your father use this room for?

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The Black Dahlia Mystery

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It was in this fortress of a house, Steve says, that his father could do what he wanted, no matter how immoral or illegal.

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The Black Dahlia Mystery

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Assured that sex between father and daughter was normal, Tamar had anything but a normal childhood. She remembers the doctor's friends, among them, famous photographer Man Ray.

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The Black Dahlia Mystery

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Man Ray became the family photographer, a perverse family photographer.

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The Black Dahlia Mystery

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A frequent house guest was John Huston, the famous movie director.

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The Black Dahlia Mystery

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And there were always women. Tamar remembers a constant stream of young, beautiful women.

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The Black Dahlia Mystery

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Michelle Phillips, former singer with the Mamas and the Papas, has been Tamar's friend since 1958.

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The Black Dahlia Mystery

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It wasn't until some years later, after one of her concerts, that Michelle Phillips met George Hodel for herself. I felt a chill.

48 Hours

Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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And in 2012, a year after the conviction, Dr. Thomas Rudd, the then newly elected Lake County coroner, agreed to review the autopsy evidence at the urging of Melissa's trial attorney.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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What do you mean when you say you saw a membrane?

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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This is a slide of a part of this infant's brain.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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At Melissa's trial, Dr. Choi had told the jury he observed no sign of an old injury. But according to Dr. Rudd, Dr. Choi had simply missed it. He called in Dr. Nancy Jones, a well-regarded pathologist, for a second opinion.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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And she agreed with Dr. Rudd and noted that the old injury had been healing for about two or three months, a timeframe consistent with that bump on Ben's head that was noticed at daycare. How they let that go is beyond me. Like the defense experts at trial, Drs. Jones and Rudd believed that the old injury was further exacerbated by Ben's headbanging.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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Dr. Rudd phoned the now-retired Dr. Choi, who signed a sworn affidavit conceding that he had missed that Ben had suffered an old injury. But he crossed out the word significant, and when asked if he would have changed his testimony at trial, Dr. Choi said, no.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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But Dr. Rudd suspected that Dr. Choi may have also been wrong about another major issue in the case, that alleged skull fracture.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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Dr. Rudd believed what Dr. Choi and the other medical experts thought was a skull fracture may have instead been a normal part of Ben's growing skull, but he couldn't prove it. Then in 2015, Melissa's father said he received an anonymous call that there was a set of x-rays at the coroner's office that had never been turned over to the defense.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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When Dr. Rudd's staff searched the computer archives, they came across these startling images that were never shown at trial.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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Do you believe that Melissa Kaluzinski had anything to do with Ben Kingan's death? Zero.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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In 2015, four years after Melissa Kaluzinski's conviction, and shortly after those clear x-rays of Ben Kingham were found, Dr. Rudd changed the manner of death on Ben's death certificate from homicide to undetermined. By this point, defense attorney Kathleen Zellner had taken on Melissa's case.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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Zellner, who has built a career on getting the wrongfully convicted out of prison, was intent on getting Melissa's conviction overturned. And in 2016, Melissa was granted an evidentiary hearing to present what Zellner argued was new evidence before Judge Daniel Shaines, the same judge who presided over Melissa's trial.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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Remember, the state gave Melissa's trial attorney, Paul DeLuca, a disc containing these dark, unreadable x-rays before trial. At the evidentiary hearing, Dr. Rudd testified about finding the clear x-rays, x-rays that he and other defense experts said showed no skull fracture, x-rays that Zellner argued would have changed the outcome of Melissa's trial.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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But at the evidentiary hearing, prosecutors argued that this wasn't new evidence in the case. They said the discs provided to DeLuca had software that could enhance the X-rays and that he simply didn't do enough to brighten them. DeLuca says he couldn't even open the software.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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Zellner, with the help of an imaging expert, argued that it didn't matter what DeLuca did, that the x-rays that he had been given had been modified and were inferior to the ones on the coroner's office computer. She also called a witness whom she believed raised more questions about the prosecution's case, Paul Foreman, the deputy coroner during Ben Kingan's autopsies.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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Foreman disputed the testimony of one of the most important witnesses at Melissa's trial, Dr. Manny Montez. Remember, Dr. Montez was the state's final witness who testified that he felt a fracture in Ben Kingan's skull. But Foreman, who said he was there when Montez came to the coroner's office, testified that Montez never physically examined Ben's body. or actually touch the child's skull.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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Could he have somehow gone in and looked at Ben's body, examined the body without you knowing?

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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The state tried to discredit Foreman by questioning his memory as well as his mental health. Foreman told us he had been treated for bipolar disorder and depression.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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But Foreman wasn't the only defense witness who raised questions about Dr. Montes' testimony. Dr. Robert Zimmerman, a renowned pediatric neuroradiologist who examined the readable x-rays, testified that if that skull fracture had existed, it would be clearly visible.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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But prosecutors stood by their trial witnesses, Dr. Montes and Dr. Choi, who said they saw and felt a skull fracture. We reached out to both doctors for this broadcast, but they did not respond to our request for comment. When the evidentiary hearing ended, Judge Shaines ruled against Melissa.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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In his ruling, Judge Shane stated that he didn't find Paul Foreman's testimony regarding Dr. Montes credible, and he agreed with the state that Paul DeLuca could have brightened the x-rays and made them readable. It was another letdown for Melissa and her family.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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I just don't understand. Zellner appealed the ruling, but again, a disappointment. And then four years later in 2022, there was a development that few saw coming. Eric Reinhart, a new state's attorney in Lake County, the county where Melissa was convicted, had taken office. Zellner says he wanted more information on the discrepancy over the x-rays.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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So he recommended she retain the digital forensics company, Garrett Discovery. We paid for him, but he recommended them. Andrew Garrett is the CEO of Garrett Discovery. Brian Bowman is a digital forensics expert who works for him. They concluded the x-rays were manipulated by someone using a software tool used to view x-rays.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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How did Paul DeLuca, the defense attorney, end up with these very dark pictures?

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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On the coroner's computer. On the coroner's computer. Bowman agrees there was little DeLuca could do.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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But if Ben Kingan's x-rays were manipulated, who did it? In their report, Garrett and Bowman pointed to the state. You put in here, the state adjusted the settings of the images that resulted in black washed out images. You're saying that either the prosecutor's office or the coroner's office, but somebody representing the state did this?

48 Hours

Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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In late 2022, when Lake County State's Attorney Eric Reinhart met with the forensic experts, experts he recommended, and learned of their findings, attorneys Kathleen Zellmer and Paul DeLuca were also there.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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But nothing happened, say Zellner and DeLuca. And as the months stretched on, Zellner decided to also look more closely at Melissa's confession.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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Zellner asked Dr. Saul Kasson, a psychology professor and leading expert on false confessions, to review the case. Dr. Kasson had first analyzed the interrogation back in 2016 when he was a CBS News consultant. He told us then and now that it appears police went into that room determined to get a confession.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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Remember, a detective reported that during the autopsy, the pathologist, Dr. Choi, told him that Ben had a skull fracture and that the injury was recent and was caused by another person using strong force. They did an autopsy on Ben. Yeah.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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After nearly six hours with investigators.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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Melissa told them it was an accident.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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Is there any evidence that corroborates the confession that Melissa made?

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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I wasn't paying attention and slipped out of my pants. But that didn't satisfy the detectives, who had left the room periodically to phone Dr. Choi.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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After nine hours in that room, the investigators were finally getting Melissa to tell a story that could account for a skull fracture.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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Like a fracture. Then they gave Melissa a scenario of why she got angry.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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The detectives who interrogated Melissa did not respond to our request for comment. Dr. Casson raises concerns about how long Melissa was in that room, approximately 10 hours, and how particularly vulnerable she was. About two and a half years before Ben Kingan's death, Melissa had reported she was raped.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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The defense recently had Melissa evaluated by a psychologist and psychiatrist. They diagnosed her with post-traumatic stress disorder. They also assessed her as having borderline intellectual functioning. She scored at a 4.8 grade level in sentence comprehension. which could help explain why she believed she could go home, even after she had confessed to murder.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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Do you believe there was a skull fracture?

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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The jury at Melissa's trial heard about her low IQ, but the judge would not allow a false confession expert to testify. Zellner believes that testimony might have changed the verdict. If Melissa Kaluzinski had not walked into that room as she had insisted on attorney, would she be in prison today?

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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But if Melissa didn't harm Ben Kingen, what happened to the toddler? It raises more questions about that earlier injury, the one that was discovered at the daycare months before his death. Several employees there remembered a co-worker.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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Brenda didn't testify at Melissa's trial, and the defense was never able to track her down. But we did. A number of people have said that Ben was hurt when he was with you. Melissa Kaluzinski was interrogated for hours about the injury Ben Kingan received just before his death. But what about the daycare worker who was reported to be with Ben a few months earlier when he got a lump on his head?

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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She didn't return our calls, but when we located her, she agreed to speak to us on the condition we obscure her face and identify her only by Brenda, her first name. On October 27, 2008, there was a report of an injury on Ben Kingan. Do you remember that? No, I don't. The way it's been described is, from some people, is that Ben was with you, and you were putting him in the bed.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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They heard a bump, and then he had a bump on the back of his head. No. Did that happen with you? No.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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No, it didn't happen. Brenda has never been charged with harming Ben, intentionally or accidentally. But attorney Kathleen Zellmer is adamant that Ben sustained a serious injury that day.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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And according to these police reports, it wouldn't be the first time that the daycare allegedly tried to cover up the seriousness of a child's injury. The daycare was shut down by state authorities shortly after Ben died. In April 2024, more than 12 years after Melissa's conviction, with no success in the court system, Zellner filed this clemency petition asking Illinois Governor J.B.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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Somebody took x-rays that were completely clear and turned them into unreadable images?

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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Pritzker to exonerate Melissa or release her for time served.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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Before a scheduled hearing, Lake County State's Attorney Eric Reinhart spoke to an attorney representing Ben Kingan's family. And then he wrote this letter to the Prisoner Review Board, stating his office strongly opposes Melissa's clemency petition. Were you shocked by that? Totally.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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Reinhart would not do an on-camera interview or speak to us on the record. But in that letter to the board, he stated that there is no new evidence in the case and that Melissa's petition for clemency does not establish innocence. On July 9th, 2024, Zellner went before the Prisoner Review Board to make her case for Melissa's freedom.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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So you're saying that either the prosecutor's office or the coroner's office, but somebody representing the state did this?

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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But also, they are making an impassioned plea for Ben Kingan's parents.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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Amy and Andy Kingen declined our request for an interview. Following Amy's statement, Zellner was then given the chance to respond.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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After the hearing, it was up to the Prisoner Review Board to make a confidential recommendation to Governor Pritzker as to whether Melissa should be released. If you had a chance to talk to Governor Pritzker yourself, what would you say?

48 Hours

Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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Holly, who worked at the daycare with Melissa, believes her, so much so that she wrote this letter to the governor.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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When we first met the Kaluzinski family back in 2014, five years after Melissa's arrest, they still had her bedroom set up. Today, that room is still set up just as it was. Paul and Cheryl Kaluzinski haven't given up hope that their daughter will be home soon. She's daddy's little girl.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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Melissa Koyuzinski had served 16 years of a 31-year prison sentence for the death of Benjamin Kingen, a 16-month-old whom she cared for at an Illinois daycare center. She has long insisted she is innocent.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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We've been covering this case for more than a decade. And over the years, Melissa's appeals have failed. But she and her attorney, Kathleen Zellmer, are not backing down. Now they're taking their fight out of the court system and straight to the governor of Illinois, J.B. Pritzker, and his prisoner review board.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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The story began on January 14, 2009. Melissa, then 22 years old, was working as a teacher's assistant at the Mini Subi Daycare in Lincolnshire, an affluent suburb of Chicago. Ben Kingan attended daycare there, along with his twin sister and their two older siblings.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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Late that afternoon, after the kids were fed a snack and cleaned up, Melissa says she put Ben down on the carpet and he crawled into his bouncy seat on the floor.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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The teacher working with Melissa stepped out of the room briefly, leaving Melissa alone with the children. That's when Melissa says she noticed something wrong with Ben.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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Melissa called for help. Her older sister, Crystal Kaluzinski, also worked at the daycare at the time.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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What was that like for you, Crystal?

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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Paramedics responded. Ben was taken to the hospital. He was pronounced dead an hour later.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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Hello, Melissa. It's been, boy, more than a decade since I first met you. When we first met, did you ever think you'd still be here this long?

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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An investigation was launched According to this police report, during an autopsy, the pathologist, Dr. Yupil Choi, told a detective that he observed a skull fracture, extensive bleeding inside Ben's head, and that the injury was caused by another person using strong force within hours prior to Ben's death. And yet, Ben had no cuts or obvious wounds on the outside of his body, no serious bruises.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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The pathologist listed the autopsy as pending further studies. Police brought in the daycare workers who had been with the toddler on the day of his death, determined to find out what happened to Ben. After Melissa was read her rights,

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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Detectives began pressing her for answers.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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Melissa denied over and over again, more than 60 times, doing anything to Ben. But the detectives didn't stop.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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After nine hours under pressure and without an attorney, Melissa changed her story. She said she thought if she told the investigators what they wanted to hear, they would let her go home.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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You weren't thinking of the consequences of doing something like that?

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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Yeah, really hard. When Melissa was taken to another station for booking, she repeated the same story to another investigator. After spending 14 hours with police, Melissa Kowalczynski was arrested for the murder of Benjamin Kingen. Even though she almost immediately took back the story she told police.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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Melissa's parents, Paul and Cheryl Kaluzinski, still remember receiving the news. And I said, what? Did you think possibly she had hurt this baby?

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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But Melissa had told investigators that she did. And after that, the manner of death on Ben's death certificate was listed as homicide. Law enforcement announced they had solved the case.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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Melissa's family would make it their mission to clear her name. My parents sold everything that they had. I put all my effort into getting her free. They had no idea how much of a fight they were in for.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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In November 2011, nearly three years after the death of Ben Kingan, Melissa Kowalczynski went on trial for murder. The state argued that Ben was a perfectly healthy toddler leading up to his death. Matthew Demartini and Stephen Scheller prosecuted the case.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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Dr. Choi, the pathologist who conducted the autopsy, testified about that skull fracture he said he had seen and how he believed the child's injury was recent and consistent with having been thrown to the floor by someone. But Melissa's trial attorney, Paul DeLuca, told the jury about a head injury Ben had previously received. It was noticed at the daycare three months earlier.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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After Ben's death, multiple people, including daycare teacher Nancy Callenger, told investigators about it. But prosecutor Stephen Scheller argued that the earlier injury was insignificant.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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That's not what defense experts said. They noted that after the injury, There were possible signs of head trauma. Medical records show that in the days after the injury, Ben was lethargic and had a persistent fever. And another daycare employee, Holly, who asked that we identify her by her first name only, testified for the defense about the last time she saw Ben. two days before his death.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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The next day, one day before he died, Ben was kept home from daycare. Prosecutor Matthew Demartini argued it was a stomach bug or a winter cold.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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But the defense maintained that Ben's prior injury was so serious that any new impact could have had major consequences. And Ben did have a habit of throwing his head back.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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Nancy Callenger recalled that Ben had done that twice on the day of his death.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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Prosecutors insisted that Melissa had hurt Ben.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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And they pointed to her confession.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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Prosecutors told the jury that the fall was so severe it caused that skull fracture. At trial, they mentioned a skull fracture more than 30 times. But was there one? While most of the experts who testified from both sides agreed there appeared to be a fracture in autopsy photos, One defense expert said she couldn't say for sure.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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And according to Melissa's attorney, Paul DeLuca, the x-rays the prosecution had provided before the trial were unreadable.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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The state's final witness, pathologist Dr. Manny Montes, gave the most vivid and damaging testimony at trial. He said he examined the body and felt the fracture with his bare hands.

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Unraveling the Case Against Melissa

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The jury deliberated for seven hours before convicting Melissa Kaluzinski of aggravated battery of a child and first-degree murder. My heart sunk. I know I didn't do this. Melissa's family remained determined to prove her innocence.

48 Hours

The Footprint

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Justin Hartley stars. I made a promise. I would never stop looking.

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The Footprint

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I made a promise. I would never stop looking.

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The Footprint

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I made a promise. I would never stop looking.

48 Hours

A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

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What do you mean when you say you saw a membrane?

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A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

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This is a slide of a part of this infant's brain.

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A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

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At Melissa's trial, Dr. Choi had told the jury he observed no sign of an old injury. But according to Dr. Rudd, Dr. Choi had simply missed it. He called in Dr. Nancy Jones, a well-regarded pathologist, for a second opinion.

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A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

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and she agreed with dr rudd and noted that the old injury had been healing for about two or three months a time frame consistent with that bump on ben's head that was noticed at daycare how they let that go is beyond me like the defense experts at trial doctors jones and rudd believed that the old injury was further exacerbated by ben's head banging

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A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

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Dr. Rudd phoned the now-retired Dr. Choi, who signed a sworn affidavit conceding that he had missed that Ben had suffered an old injury. But he crossed out the word significant, and when asked if he would have changed his testimony at trial, Dr. Choi said, no.

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But Dr. Rudd suspected that Dr. Choi may have also been wrong about another major issue in the case, that alleged skull fracture.

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Dr. Rudd believed what Dr. Choi and the other medical experts thought was a skull fracture may have instead been a normal part of Ben's growing skull, but he couldn't prove it. Then in 2015, Melissa's father said he received an anonymous call that there was a set of x-rays at the coroner's office that had never been turned over to the defense.

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When Dr. Rudd's staff searched the computer archives, they came across these startling images that were never shown at trial.

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In 2015, four years after Melissa Kaluzinski's conviction and shortly after those clear x-rays of Ben Kingham were found, Dr. Rudd changed the manner of death on Ben's death certificate from homicide to undetermined. By this point, defense attorney Kathleen Zellner had taken on Melissa's case.

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Zellner, who has built a career on getting the wrongfully convicted out of prison, was intent on getting Melissa's conviction overturned. And in 2016, Melissa was granted an evidentiary hearing to present what Zellner argued was new evidence before Judge Daniel Shaines, the same judge who presided over Melissa's trial.

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Remember, the state gave Melissa's trial attorney, Paul DeLuca, a disc containing these dark, unreadable x-rays before trial. At the evidentiary hearing, Dr. Rudd testified about finding the clear x-rays, x-rays that he and other defense experts said showed no skull fracture, x-rays that Zellner argued would have changed the outcome of Melissa's trial.

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But at the evidentiary hearing, prosecutors argued that this wasn't new evidence in the case. They said the discs provided to DeLuca had software that could enhance the X-rays and that he simply didn't do enough to brighten them. DeLuca says he couldn't even open the software.

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Zellner, with the help of an imaging expert, argued that it didn't matter what DeLuca did, that the x-rays that he had been given had been modified and were inferior to the ones on the coroner's office computer. She also called a witness whom she believed raised more questions about the prosecution's case, Paul Foreman, the deputy coroner during Ben Kingan's autopsies.

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Foreman disputed the testimony of one of the most important witnesses at Melissa's trial, Dr. Manny Montez. Remember, Dr. Montez was the state's final witness who testified that he felt a fracture in Ben Kingan's skull. But Foreman, who said he was there when Montez came to the coroner's office, testified that Montez never physically examined Ben's body, or actually touch the child's skull.

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Could he have somehow gone in and looked at Ben's body, examined the body without you knowing?

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The state tried to discredit Foreman by questioning his memory as well as his mental health. Foreman told us he had been treated for bipolar disorder and depression.

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But Foreman wasn't the only defense witness who raised questions about Dr. Montes' testimony. Dr. Robert Zimmerman, a renowned pediatric neuroradiologist who examined the readable x-rays, testified that if that skull fracture had existed, it would be clearly visible.

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But prosecutors stood by their trial witnesses, Dr. Montes and Dr. Choi, who said they saw and felt a skull fracture. We reached out to both doctors for this broadcast, but they did not respond to our request for comment. When the evidentiary hearing ended, Judge Shaines ruled against Melissa.

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In his ruling, Judge Shane stated that he didn't find Paul Foreman's testimony regarding Dr. Montes credible, and he agreed with the state that Paul DeLuca could have brightened the x-rays and made them readable. It was another letdown for Melissa and her family. You clearly made a mistake. I just don't understand. Zellner appealed the ruling, but again, a disappointment.

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And then four years later in 2022, there was a development that few saw coming. Eric Reinhart, a new state's attorney in Lake County, the county where Melissa was convicted, had taken office. Zellner says he wanted more information on the discrepancy over the x-rays. So he recommended she retain the digital forensics company Garrett Discovery.

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Andrew Garrett is the CEO of Garrett Discovery. Brian Bowman is a digital forensics expert who works for him. They concluded the x-rays were manipulated by someone using a software tool used to view x-rays. How did Paul DeLuca, the defense attorney, end up with these very dark pictures?

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Is there any evidence that corroborates the confession that Melissa made?

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A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

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On the coroner's computer? On the coroner's computer. Bowman agrees there was little DeLuca could do.

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A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

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But if Ben Kingan's x-rays were manipulated, who didn't? In their report, Garrett and Bowman pointed to the state. You put in here, the state adjusted the settings of the images that resulted in black, washed-out images. You're saying that either the prosecutor's office or the coroner's office, but somebody representing the state did this.

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Hello Melissa. Hi Erin. It's been, boy, more than a decade since I first met you. When we first met, did you ever think you'd still be here this long?

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In late 2022, when Lake County State's Attorney Eric Reinhart met with the forensic experts, experts he recommended, and learned of their findings, attorneys Kathleen Zellmer and Paul DeLuca were also there.

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But nothing happened, say Zellner and DeLuca. And as the months stretched on, Zellner decided to also look more closely at Melissa's confession.

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Zellner asked Dr. Saul Kasson, a psychology professor and leading expert on false confessions, to review the case. Dr. Kasson had first analyzed the interrogation back in 2016 when he was a CBS News consultant. He told us then and now that it appears police went into that room determined to get a confession.

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Do you believe there was a skull fracture?

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Remember, a detective reported that during the autopsy, the pathologist, Dr. Choi, told him that Ben had a skull fracture and that the injury was recent and was caused by another person using strong force. They did an autopsy on Ben. Yeah.

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After nearly six hours with investigators.

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Melissa told them it was an accident.

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I wasn't paying attention and slipped out of my pants. But that didn't satisfy the detectives, who had left the room periodically to phone Dr. Choi.

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After nine hours in that room, the investigators were finally getting Melissa to tell a story that could account for a skull fracture.

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Like a fracture. Then they gave Melissa a scenario of why she got angry.

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The detectives who interrogated Melissa did not respond to our request for comment. Dr. Casson raises concerns about how long Melissa was in that room, approximately 10 hours, and how particularly vulnerable she was. About two and a half years before Ben Kingan's death, Melissa had reported she was raped.

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Somebody took x-rays that were completely clear and turned them into unreadable images.

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The defense recently had Melissa evaluated by a psychologist and psychiatrist. They diagnosed her with post-traumatic stress disorder. They also assessed her as having borderline intellectual functioning. She scored at a 4.8 grade level in sentence comprehension. which could help explain why she believed she could go home, even after she had confessed to murder.

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The jury at Melissa's trial heard about her low IQ, but the judge would not allow a false confession expert to testify. Zellner believes that testimony might have changed the verdict. If Melissa Kaluzinski had not walked into that room as she had insisted on attorney, would she be in prison today?

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So you're saying that either the prosecutor's office or the coroner's office, but somebody representing the state did this?

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But if Melissa didn't harm Ben Kingen, what happened to the toddler? It raises more questions about that earlier injury, the one that was discovered at the daycare months before his death. Several employees there remembered a co-worker.

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And the defense was never able to track her down. But we did. A number of people have said that Ben was hurt when he was with you. Melissa Kaluzinski was interrogated for hours about the injury Ben Kingan received just before his death. But what about the daycare worker who was reported to be with Ben a few months earlier when he got a lump on his head?

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She didn't return our calls, but when we located her, she agreed to speak to us on the condition we obscure her face and identify her only by Brenda, her first name. On October 27, 2008, there was a report of an injury on Ben Kingan. Do you remember that? No, I don't. The way it's been described from some people is that Ben was with you, and you were putting him in the bed.

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They heard a bump, and then he had a bump on the back of his head. No. Did that happen with you? No.

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No, it didn't happen. Brenda has never been charged with harming Ben, intentionally or accidentally. But attorney Kathleen Zellmer is adamant that Ben sustained a serious injury that day.

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And according to these police reports, it wouldn't be the first time that the daycare allegedly tried to cover up the seriousness of a child's injury. The daycare was shut down by state authorities shortly after Ben died. In April 2024, more than 12 years after Melissa's conviction, with no success in the court system, Zellner filed this clemency petition asking Illinois Governor J.B.

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Pritzker to exonerate Melissa or release her for time served.

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Before a scheduled hearing, Lake County State's Attorney Eric Reinhart spoke to an attorney representing Ben Kingan's family. And then he wrote this letter to the Prisoner Review Board, stating his office strongly opposes Melissa's clemency petition. Were you shocked by that? Totally.

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Reinhart would not do an on-camera interview or speak to us on the record. But in that letter to the board, he stated that there is no new evidence in the case and that Melissa's petition for clemency does not establish innocence. On July 9, 2024, Zellner went before the Prisoner Review Board to make her case for Melissa's freedom.

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but also they are making an impassioned plea for Ben Kingan's parents.

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A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

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Amy and Andy Kingen declined our request for an interview. Following Amy's statement, Zellner was then given the chance to respond.

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After the hearing, it was up to the Prisoner Review Board to make a confidential recommendation to Governor Pritzker as to whether Melissa should be released. If you had a chance to talk to Governor Pritzker yourself, what would you say?

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Holly, who worked at the daycare with Melissa, believes her, so much so that she wrote this letter to the governor.

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Melissa Koyuzinski has served 16 years of a 31-year prison sentence for the death of Benjamin Kingen, a 16-month-old whom she cared for at an Illinois daycare center. She has long insisted she is innocent.

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We've been covering this case for more than a decade. And over the years, Melissa's appeals have failed. But she and her attorney, Kathleen Zellmer, are not backing down. Now they're taking their fight out of the court system and straight to the governor of Illinois, J.B. Pritzker, and his prisoner review board.

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The story began on January 14, 2009. Melissa, then 22 years old, was working as a teacher's assistant at the Minisubi Daycare in Lincolnshire, an affluent suburb of Chicago. Ben Kingan attended daycare there, along with his twin sister and their two older siblings.

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Late that afternoon, after the kids were fed a snack and cleaned up, Melissa says she put Ben down on the carpet and he crawled into his bouncy seat on the floor.

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The teacher working with Melissa stepped out of the room briefly, leaving Melissa alone with the children. That's when Melissa says she noticed something wrong with Ben.

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Melissa called for help. Her older sister, Crystal Kaluzinski, also worked at the daycare at the time.

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What's that like for you, Crystal?

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Paramedics responded. Ben was taken to the hospital. He was pronounced dead an hour later.

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A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

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An investigation was launched According to this police report, during an autopsy, the pathologist, Dr. Yupil Choi, told a detective that he observed a skull fracture, extensive bleeding inside Ben's head, and that the injury was caused by another person using strong force within hours prior to Ben's death. And yet, Ben had no cuts or obvious wounds on the outside of his body, no serious bruises.

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The pathologist listed the autopsy as pending further studies. Police brought in the daycare workers who had been with the toddler on the day of his death, determined to find out what happened to Ben. After Melissa was read her rights.

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Detectives began pressing her for answers.

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A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

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Melissa denied over and over again, more than 60 times, doing anything to Ben.

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But the detectives didn't stop.

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A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

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All these years later, Melissa still remembers what it was like being in that room.

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After nine hours under pressure and without an attorney, Melissa changed her story. She said she thought if she told the investigators what they wanted to hear, they would let her go home.

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A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

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You weren't thinking of the consequences of doing something like that?

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Yeah, really hard. When Melissa was taken to another station for booking, she repeated the same story to another investigator. After spending 14 hours with police, Melissa Kaluzinski was arrested for the murder of Benjamin Kingen. Even though she almost immediately took back the story she told police.

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Melissa's parents, Paul and Cheryl Kaluzinski, still remember receiving the news. And I said, what? Did you think possibly she had hurt this baby?

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But Melissa had told investigators that she did. And after that, the manner of death on Ben's death certificate was listed as homicide. Law enforcement announced they had solved the case.

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Melissa's family would make it their mission to clear her name.

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A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

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They had no idea how much of a fight they were in for.

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A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

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In November 2011, nearly three years after the death of Ben Kingan, Melissa Kowalczynski went on trial for murder. The state argued that Ben was a perfectly healthy toddler leading up to his death. Matthew Demartini and Steven Scheller prosecuted the case.

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Dr. Choi, the pathologist who conducted the autopsy, testified about that skull fracture he said he had seen and how he believed the child's injury was recent and consistent with having been thrown to the floor by someone. But Melissa's trial attorney, Paul DeLuca, told the jury about a head injury Ben had previously received. It was noticed at the daycare three months earlier.

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After Ben's death, multiple people, including daycare teacher Nancy Callenger, told investigators about it. But prosecutor Stephen Scheller argued that the earlier injury was insignificant.

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That's not what defense experts said. They noted that after the injury, there were possible signs of head trauma. Medical records show that in the days after the injury, Ben was lethargic and had a persistent fever. And another daycare employee, Holly, who asked that we identify her by her first name only, testified for the defense about the last time she saw Ben.

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But the defense maintained that Ben's prior injury was so serious that any new impact could have had major consequences. And Ben did have a habit of throwing his head back.

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Nancy Callenger recalled that Ben had done that twice on the day of his death.

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Prosecutors insisted that Melissa had hurt Ben.

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And they pointed to her confession.

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Do you believe that Melissa Kaluzinski had anything to do with Ben Kingan's death?

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A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

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Prosecutors told the jury that the fall was so severe it caused that skull fracture. At trial, they mentioned a skull fracture more than 30 times. But was there one? Well, most of the experts who testified from both sides agreed there appeared to be a fracture in autopsy photos. One defense expert said she couldn't say for sure. And according to Melissa's attorney, Paul DeLuca,

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The x-rays the prosecution had provided before the trial were unreadable.

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A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

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The state's final witness, pathologist Dr. Manny Montes, gave the most vivid and damaging testimony at trial. He said he examined the body and felt the fracture with his bare hands.

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A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

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The jury deliberated for seven hours before convicting Melissa Kaluzinski of aggravated battery of a child and first-degree murder. My heart sunk. I know I didn't do this. Melissa's family remained determined to prove her innocence. I didn't accept the verdict. I knew it was wrong. And in 2012, a year after the conviction, Dr. Thomas Rudd,

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A Day Care Worker Convicted of Murder

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The then newly elected Lake County coroner agreed to review the autopsy evidence at the urging of Melissa's trial attorney.

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

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Katina Rose was pronounced dead at nine minutes after midnight.

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

1035.411

By then, homicide detectives were at Katina's dorm talking to Joanne.

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

1048.563

Les and Steven were in their room when there was a knock on the door.

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

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Stephen Burns was pulled from the room and taken to the Stockton Police Station, where he was fingerprinted and photographed. Officer Haight recalls seeing him there.

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The Boy Across the Street

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Burns told the police he didn't meet Katina on campus that night and that he spent the evening in his dorm room watching Monday Night Football. Without the gun, it was never found. The police didn't have enough evidence to hold him. Stephen Burns was released. His father took him back to San Francisco. The police didn't publicly name a suspect, but Harriet Salarno didn't need a name.

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

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She already knew it.

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The Boy Across the Street

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After talking to the family, the police learned that Stephen had threatened to kill Katina if she broke up with him. Two days after the murder of Katina Rose Salarno, Steven Burns was arrested at his home just across the street from where Katina grew up.

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

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Learning to live without their daughter has been a lifelong journey for Katina's parents. One crippled by what-ifs, Mike Salarno never stopped blaming himself.

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

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For decades, Katina's sisters have also grappled with regret, wishing they had told their parents about Stephen Burns' threatening to kill Katina.

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The Boy Across the Street

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You're living with guilt, too.

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The Boy Across the Street

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In the wake of the murder, each member of the family retreated into their own private grief.

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The Boy Across the Street

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The Salernos would learn that the young man they had trusted had stolen a gun from Mike's store weeks before Katina's murder. You believe he planned that murder?

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

1296.584

They came to believe Stephen may have been planning to use that gun to kill Katina even before she left for college.

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

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Regina says Burns tried to climb up the side of their house and enter through the window of the bedroom the girls shared. But Katina told him to leave.

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

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What do you think now, when you look back on that, that sound of metal against metal?

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The Boy Across the Street

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Six months after Katina's death, 19-year-old Steven Burns went on trial for her murder. It was a bitter awakening for the Salarnos, who say there was more concern for the defendant and his rights than there was for his victim. Neither of Katina's parents were allowed in the courtroom, not even while Nina, who was only 14 years old at the time, took the stand.

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She had to testify at the trial on her own, without a victim's advocate to support her.

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

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The prosecution argued that Burns met Katina that night carrying the stolen gun with the intention of killing her if she wouldn't continue their relationship. Still, the jury did not convict him of premeditated first-degree murder. He was found guilty of second-degree murder and was sentenced to 17 years to life with the possibility of parole.

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

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They would learn they were wrong. Just 10 years into his sentence, Stephen Burns came up for parole. The Salarnos were outraged.

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

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Here they are in 1990 talking to then 48 Hours correspondent Bernard Goldberg the night before the first parole hearing.

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The Boy Across the Street

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Going into this hearing, they know there's a chance he could get out. On March 28, 1990, the Salarnos and a bus full of supporters headed to Stephen Burns' parole hearing.

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

1515.495

For the first time since Katina's murder, the Salarnos confronted the man they had once considered part of the family.

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

1566.923

He apologized, but the Salarnos noticed he never looked at them while he did it.

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

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After an excruciating wait... The board is deliberating right now.

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

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The parole board came back with a decision. Stephen Burns was found unsuitable for release. but he would get another chance at freedom in two years.

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

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And back they would come over and over again for the next 35 years.

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

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There is one thing you can count on with the Salarnos. Every week for almost 46 years. All right. They've gone to the cemetery where Katina now rests. I'm going to get the water out of the flowers. These days, there's another grave to tend. Mike Salarno died in 2013 of cancer. There's something else you could be sure of. Every time Stephen Burns comes up for parole, they will be there.

48 Hours

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In January 2025, they were about to go to their 13th parole hearing. Give this family the strength to continue to fight. That fight for victims' rights has shaped all of their lives.

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

1762.997

Nina was so traumatized by the trial, she vowed she would become a prosecutor. And so she did. She became a specialist in domestic violence cases.

48 Hours

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She became the DA in Modoc County. Cowboy country, about as far north in California as you can get.

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

179.848

How many parole hearings have you attended? Number 13. You've been at every single one of these? Yes, every single one. As Steve Burns heads into his 13th parole hearing, what are you thinking?

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

1810.882

Harriet went on to start Crime Victims United, an organization that has changed hundreds of laws. Before Harriet Salarno, victims in California weren't allowed to give impact statements at sentencing. Now they are. Parents, even if witnesses, can now attend the trial. And children, unlike Nina, must now be accompanied by a support person when testifying. She's my hero.

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

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For Harriet, that has meant fighting to keep Stephen Burns behind bars.

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

1868.648

Stephen Burns has been in prison for 45 years, but the Salarnos are convinced he hasn't changed.

48 Hours

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1881.357

Stephen Byrne's story, says Deputy District Attorney Robert Himmelblau, has changed at least 12 times over the years.

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

1910.347

In 2016, 37 years after the murder, Stephen finally stopped lying about Katina's actions, says Nina. He told the commissioners, quote, I became very, very angry, and I pulled out a gun and shot Katina. But Stephen continued to deny that he stalked her to UOP to kill her if she didn't get back together with him.

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

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And according to a complaint brought up at the last parole hearing, he has shown those same obsessive behaviors inside prison. A professor who taught incarcerated students reported that Byrne's behavior towards her was, quote, "...disturbing and manipulating."

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

1976.539

Do you think that if Stephen Burns is released, he could hurt someone? Yes.

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

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But there are some who believe that Stephen Burns deserves a second chance. Kevin Anderson, once a respected pediatrician, got to know Burns when he was incarcerated, also for murder. After 24 years in prison, Kevin was released on parole in 2023. He started working as a counselor. We first spoke to him the day before Stephen's 2025 parole hearing.

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

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Do you think that Stephen Burns is a danger to society?

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

2029.935

Stephen has earned a college degree and has worked with hospice patients. He has participated in numerous anger management and rehabilitation programs, some alongside Kevin.

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

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You don't think he's a danger?

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

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Kevin worked with Steve in mock hearing sessions to help him prepare for the upcoming parole hearing.

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

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Kevin says Steven told him he snapped when Katina rejected him.

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

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And Katina saw it too, says Kevin.

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

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If somebody looked at this and said... It's been 45 years. Is this now just about vengeance?

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

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But it didn't stop him. Steven Burns shot the woman he claimed to love in the back of the head and walked away, leaving her to slowly bleed to death. Did he say why he left and didn't get help for?

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

2132.108

Stephen Burns is about to get another chance to convince commissioners that the same man who left Katina to die that night is a changed man. And this time, the Salernos fear the odds are in his favor.

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

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As Harriet Salarno counts down the days to the 2025 hearing, she does what she's done for the past four decades. She goes to work. At 92, Harriet still goes to the office at Crime Victims United every day. We're going to use these at the parole hearing. Harriet and Nina are picking out photos to show the commissioners at the parole hearing. Here's Katina. I think that's her 16th.

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

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Nina has been preparing for this hearing for months.

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

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But Nina, the protector, is calling on Katina and her dad to help the things she can't control. As a DA, Nina knows his chances of getting out are better than ever. Keith Whatley is founder of Uncommon Law, an organization that helps incarcerated people navigate the parole process.

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

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Whatley, who has never met Stephen, but has reviewed his last two parole transcripts, says Stephen has two other important things going for him. His age. He was only 18 when he committed the crime.

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The Boy Across the Street

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And his age at the time of the hearing. 63. Whatley says he's eligible for special consideration under the elderly parole program. He says people simply age out of crime, especially violent crime. But in Stephen Byrne's case, isn't there a possibility that if he gets out, he gets involved with someone and they leave him, he'll do the same thing?

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

232.701

Isn't it likely at one of these hearings, he's going to get out?

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The Boy Across the Street

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But sometimes, statistics are no match for the human spirit. When the family comes consistently to these parole hearings, especially a family like the Salarnos, Doesn't that make it much more difficult for someone like Stephen Burns to get a chance at parole?

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The Boy Across the Street

2363.735

The Salarnos are praying they'll make an impact again this time. Thank you for allowing us to be able to be a voice for Katina. Harriet, Nina, her daughter Lexi, and a group of loyal friends head to the DA's office in Stockton, California, where they will attend the parole hearing via video, the post-COVID new normal. But won't hearing all this today make you relive everything?

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The Boy Across the Street

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You are right now?

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The Boy Across the Street

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Harriet braces herself as she heads into the conference room, knowing she will have to again see the man who put her daughter in a grave.

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The Boy Across the Street

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48 hours was not allowed to record video or audio during the hearing, but I was able to sit with the family and friends to observe. Stephen Burns, his affect flat, his voice monotone, once again denied he planned to kill Katina that night. This audio was recorded by the parole board.

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The Boy Across the Street

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After almost four hours, the commissioners retreated to make their decision. Is this the hardest part, just waiting to see? Waiting.

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The Boy Across the Street

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Twenty minutes later, the family was called back into the conference room. The decision was in.

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

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Erin Moriarty reports, The Boy Across the Street.

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The Boy Across the Street

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Stephen Burns was found unsuitable for parole. I don't know. I think I just told the circle. Really sweet tonight. It's the first real smile I've seen on your face.

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The Boy Across the Street

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When Kevin Anderson, Stephen's friend from prison, read the transcript of the hearing, he was stunned. He sent 48 hours in email, some of which I read to him when we spoke again after the hearing. Reading this transcript is hurting my head, heart, and soul. This man is absolutely not ready to be released.

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The Boy Across the Street

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It shook the entire campus at the University of the Pacific. A freshman on her first day of college in 1979 found unconscious, bleeding from her head in a remote area of the school. Her name was Katina Solano. Harriet and Mike Solano were getting ready for bed when the phone rang at their San Francisco home. Mike answered it. His tone signaled the news.

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The Boy Across the Street

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Four days after the hearing, Nina and Harriet went to deliver the news.

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The Boy Across the Street

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Stephen Burns is expected to go before the parole board again in 2030.

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The Boy Across the Street

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The Salernos' two younger daughters, Regina and Nina, rushed to their side. Then the phone rang again.

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The Boy Across the Street

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Yeah. 48 Hours first met the Salarno family in 1990. Harriet and Mike were making their weekly visit to Katina's resting place.

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

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At the time, Katina had been gone for 10 years, and her family was just embarking on a decades-long journey to keep her killer behind bars.

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

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It was not a journey they had ever expected to make. Harriet, did you and Michael really have kind of the perfect life as parents, three kids?

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

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yes to answer you yes we were so blessed both mike and harriet were juvenile commissioners assigned by the city of san francisco to mentor boys and girls their arms and home were always open says nina the youngest daughter i think the best way to describe it is it typified

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The Boy Across the Street

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They spent blissful summer days at the cabin in the mountains, three carefree sisters, with Katina leading the pack, says Regina, younger by 18 months. She was the heart and soul of the family.

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The Boy Across the Street

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When Katina was 14, a new family, the Burns, moved in across the street in San Francisco. There were four children, a girl and three boys, all about the same age as the Solano sisters.

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

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Soon, the friendship between the oldest Solano sister and the second oldest Burns brother blossomed into a young love. Katina and Steven Burns started dating in the 10th grade. How would you describe Steven Burns?

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The Boy Across the Street

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Steve, who went to an all-boys Catholic school, was a star athlete and captain of the football team. He and Nina, a basketball and volleyball player, bonded over their shared love of sports.

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The Boy Across the Street

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Mike took Steve, who had a difficult relationship with his own dad, under his wing. He not only mentored him, he gave him a job at his TV store delivering TVs.

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The Boy Across the Street

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Mike trusted him completely, says Regina. They all did. Did you ever see anything between Steve and Katina that worried you?

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The Boy Across the Street

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But with hindsight, the sisters say, there were signs. In her senior year, Katina, who had been accepted to the University of the Pacific, wanted to break up with Stephen. But he wasn't having it, says Regina. He started threatening her.

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The Boy Across the Street

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But at the time, neither sister took him seriously. Neither one of you told your parents.

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

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Mike and Harriet never heard about that incident. never imagined that the life they knew would come to an end.

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The Boy Across the Street

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When Katina arrived at the University of the Pacific, UOP, in September of 1979, she thought she had left Stephen Burns behind for good. He said he was going to Santa Clara University, and she was going to begin pursuing her longtime goal.

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The Boy Across the Street

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But Katina's excitement was cut short soon after the Salernos got to campus.

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

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For the first time, Katina turned to her father for help.

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The Boy Across the Street

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The Salarnos headed back to San Francisco, and Katina and Steve each moved into their respective dorm rooms on opposite sides of the campus. Stephen's new roommate, Les Serpa, remembers walking in the room and seeing Katina's picture everywhere.

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The Boy Across the Street

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He didn't mention that she had wanted to break up?

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The Boy Across the Street

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Across campus, Katina was settling in with her new roommate, Joanne Marks. Then came a knock on the door. It was Steve Burns.

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The Boy Across the Street

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Joanne says Steve came by to pick up Katina about 7.45 that evening.

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The Boy Across the Street

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Katina told Joanne she would see her later, but that later never came.

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The Boy Across the Street

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A freshman out for a walk named Kevin Arlen would be the one to discover why. It was around 9.45 at night when he saw something on the sidewalk.

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The Boy Across the Street

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Kevin, unnerved by what he saw, rushed back to his dorm and got a resident advisor. They both ran back to the scene.

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

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Kevin would later find out it was 18-year-old Katina Rose Salarno. She had been shot in the back of the head.

48 Hours

The Boy Across the Street

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That had to be heartbreaking.

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The Boy Across the Street

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While the two men waited for the ambulance to arrive, Stephen Burns returned to his dorm room, where his roommate, Les, was watching Monday Night Football.

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The Boy Across the Street

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The ambulance arrived around 10 p.m. and rushed Katina to St. Joseph's Hospital. She was still alive, barely. Years later, her family would learn she was not alone. Randy Haight, at the time a young patrol officer who was at the crime scene, met his partner at the hospital.

48 Hours

Fatal First Date

1576.043

What do you make of Bobby Tarr's story? Chat now with the 48 Hours team on Facebook and X.

48 Hours

Fatal First Date

1809.137

Chris's voice was so weak in those early days.

48 Hours

Fatal First Date

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Follow along with Chris's remarkable story at 48hours.com.

48 Hours

Fatal First Date

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Aaron Moriarty reports, fatal first date.

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Fatal First Date

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Leslie's two children are being raised by their father. Bobby Tarr is still awaiting trial on solicitation of murder charges.

48 Hours

The "No Body" Case of Dee Warner

1238.611

Every time you go by here, does it hurt a little bit?

48 Hours

The "No Body" Case of Dee Warner

157.586

That was not unusual for your mom to pack her bags and disappear for a day, right?

48 Hours

The "No Body" Case of Dee Warner

1763.32

Rated R. You had to testify? Were you nervous?

48 Hours

The "No Body" Case of Dee Warner

2240.963

How nervous were you before the judge issues the ruling?

48 Hours

The "No Body" Case of Dee Warner

227.771

When you're driving through here, are you still wondering where Dee is?

48 Hours

The "No Body" Case of Dee Warner

245.462

When do you miss your mother the most?

48 Hours

The "No Body" Case of Dee Warner

2503.467

Anybody had access to that cylinder. Someone could have come into his own. barn and put your mom?

48 Hours

The "No Body" Case of Dee Warner

255.795

Do you think Dee Warner was murdered?

48 Hours

The "No Body" Case of Dee Warner

354.91

It was parked in the garage. So all your mother's cars are there? Yes. And she's not responding to any kind of calls or texts?

48 Hours

The "No Body" Case of Dee Warner

680.619

On Saturday afternoon, April 24th.

48 Hours

The "No Body" Case of Dee Warner

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That's the very last time you ever heard from Dee Warner.

48 Hours

The "No Body" Case of Dee Warner

805.302

Can you think of a day when no one knew where your mother was? A full day?

48 Hours

The Black Widow

1186.719

Snake bit, because what can go wrong will go wrong.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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The person who delivered that fatal blow was the defendant, Raynella Leith.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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Once she missed, it changed the whole dynamic. She ended his life with that second shot, and then in an attempt to cover up, she fired that third shot to get gunshot residue on him.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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Yes. That's what I think she is. We'll show you what's been marked previously as Exhibit 36 and ask if you can identify that.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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The second shot occurs, and he falls straight back down to where he was found. You cannot lay in this bed and face that direction and get that blood spatter on the wall. Blood doesn't turn corners.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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There was a first indication on March 13, 2003, that anything was unusual about David Lee.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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There would have been no reason to say, have you seen him? There would have been no reason to ask if he'd worked out. And there certainly would have been no reason to say he didn't eat his breakfast because there's no way she could have known that unless she had been there and unless the only reason she knew he hadn't eaten breakfast was because he was dead.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

1853.569

It's the only explanation. Rinella Lee is guilty of the first-degree premeditated homicide of David Lee.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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I really could not believe what he was saying as he said it.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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Oh, I gotta breathe. No matter where we think we're going here, that can't be how this ends.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

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Does that make it worse? Yeah, I guess so in some ways. But in another sense, it tells me I did the right thing. And more importantly, our work as trial attorneys was spot on.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

348.15

You don't really know why they do what they do, do you?

48 Hours

The Black Widow

37.863

State will show that on March 13, 2003, David Lee was killed by a single gunshot wound to his forehead. The report on the 911 call was that he'd shot himself.

48 Hours

The Black Widow

84.195

Raynella Leaf. He was shot almost in the middle of his forehead, but right above his left eye. There were no signs of forced entry. There were no signs of a struggle. And there was no one else at the residence but the defendant.