Farnoosh Torabi
Appearances
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
Yes, I agree with you. Money is power. The complexity arrives when you're in a relationship and you think that my power means I have power over you as opposed to I have power to heal, to support. There's a difference. There's a difference in how you wield that power. And I want every woman to have power and to use money as a tool for power. And men too.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
But when you're in the context of a relationship, it's about how to sort of dance with money, you know, and not be sizing each other up based on what you earn. This happens all the time. Imagine a world where you can roam freely and choose for yourself, by yourself. You can afford yourself options. You can say, you know what, this doesn't suit me anymore and I can leave.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
And I know there are some risks and I know there's uncertainty down the road, but I have money. I have not just money, but I have financial autonomy. This is what being truly wealthy is. It's being able to Understand that the world's a scary place. Yes, money does not solve all of the problems, but money does give us a runway. It gives us resources.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
It gives us confidence sometimes to believe we can do something and arrive on the other side safe. And as women in this world, I know this personally. I've seen it. I've witnessed it. I've experienced it. Money helps. Having your own money. Someone else's money is not your money. Your parents' money is not your money. Your partner's money, to an extent, you share in that.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
But do you have your own bank account? Do you have your own credit card? Do you have your own source of income, potentially? I think that if you are willing to prioritize your financial well-being and say that not only do I need this, but I deserve this, it is my birthright, your world opens up.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
Just five. So I would say that the biggest fear is the fear of not having enough, which has real... There's a realness to that. I mean, you look outside, things are expensive. And so there could be a real actual legitimate reason for that fear. Then there's the fear of even if you have enough, losing it all, right? You're just one job loss away from losing your house.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
You're one bad investment away from not being able to retire. There is a fear of wanting too much. And this affects a lot of women. The... Admitting of, I want to be rich, I want to be financially successful, that's a scary thing to come to terms with out loud in front of others because you're worried about what that might say about you and your priorities.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
The expectation is not that you're gonna be that woman, right? The expectation is maybe that you're gonna prioritize caregiving, you're gonna prioritize your family, you're gonna prioritize other things, not money. So we fear that.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
We fear as parents sometimes and caregivers, raising our kids in such a way where the cycles get repeated, where maybe we grew up with a fear of scarcity and now we're bestowing that on our children or on the other end, giving them too much and then they don't appreciate it. Again, it's sort of what we all have, which is that lack of financial literacy.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
I think it's like 60% of Americans didn't speak a word of money growing up. And as adults, that becomes a fear of its own that not only you're not going to have the sort of fluency and confidence around money, but that your kids who are watching you are also not going to be able to be strong in that department.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
And then I think for those who are perhaps the boomers, my parents, this fear of dying without a real financial legacy, that's important culturally to Americans is to be able to die with a will to pass on some assets to the next generation. And again, I think part of it is like this fear of thinking about death and not doing the proper estate planning, exacerbates that.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
So those are the five things. And I tried to pick the ones that kind of go through the generations. There was a recent study that actually found that millennials, Gen Y, they're the ones who are most afraid of running out of money.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
Oh, yeah. I mean, that's why I often say before you get into the nitty gritty of your finances, you have to talk about how you grew up with money. It's so foundational to really understanding your partner.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
And so when you see them, when you witness them being tight with money or overspending or not wanting to talk about money and not wanting to have that confrontation, you don't go, what's wrong with you? You go, oh my God, I understand where this is coming from. So let's unpack that.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
Sometimes the exercise I often say is when you're experiencing a financial fear of any sort is to trace it to its root. Where did this fear come from? Is it even my fear? It may just be my parents' fear from the 1960s, from the 1970s latched onto me. Because yeah, growing up, there was scarcity and that was a scary time.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
But that was also a time when I was nine and I didn't have agency and I didn't have control over what was happening with the money. And so my parents' fears became my fears. I inherited that and I never let go of it. And maybe even just maybe that helped me for a while as I got older, having that fear of losing money made me a super saver.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
But now I still have this anxiety that I'm gonna lose it all, but I have savings, I have a job. And yet, so this is when the fear is no longer serving you and you need to kind of go down memory lane, find its source and make the adult decision that, this ends here. This ends with me right now. Um, and I'm going to rest this fear.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
I'm going to thank it maybe for how far it's taken me, but now it's not serving me. Looking at the facts of your life that you do have. I mean, I remember this woman, uh, this woman wrote to me. She said, Farnoosh, I'm in my fifties. I'm a single mom. I've helped my boys get through college. I grew up in scarcity and poverty and, uh,
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
it actually, that fear led me to be very financially in charge of my life. I started a business. I bought my house. I single-handedly raised my boys. And I just fear like I'm going to lose it. I'm going to lose. I'm one bad decision away. I don't trust that this is going to endure. And so what I said to her was, first, let's trace this. Everything I just told you, this is your mother's fear.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
This isn't you. And this is real. I mean, not to say that this is a fabrication. It happened. You were once this young girl experiencing lack. Now, is that true? Look at everything that you have. Take inventory of your life. You have done amazing things with your money. You have not exhibited a pattern of making bad decisions with your money. And so sometimes you need that wake-up call.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
You need someone else to tell you, here are all the things that you've done, or you need to take a really honest look at all of your accomplishments. I say... is taking inventory of all of your accomplishments and all of your assets that no one can take away from you. Like, yeah, maybe the market will tumble and you have no control over that and your investments do dip.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
And that may mean that you don't be able to retire at 65 as you were planning. But does that mean you've lost it all and you'll never regain it? Because you are who you are at the end of the day. You've gotten to where you are for a reason. And that is not something that can be taken away from you. When people get laid off and they're afraid of never getting a job again, I say, okay, that's scary.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
You don't have a title. You don't have an income. You source a lot of your sense of self-worth and identity from that job. It's gone now. You're worried about uncertainty. But here's the thing. When you fear financial uncertainty, which is what that is, what does your body want? You know, it wants certainty. Ice cream. It wants ice cream, yes.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
As a woman who has been laid off twice, the first time it happened, a lot of Bridget Jones diary, a lot of Chinese dumplings. And you should allow yourself a pity party. Like, that is to be allowed. But... I say, you lost the job, you lost the income, but what did you not lose? What are the things that you are still taking with you?
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
And that is your experience, your network, your accomplishments, even the failures are assets. You learned a lot. And that is the stuff that you're gonna be able to take into your next move. Um, so we lose sight.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
We think that our accomplishments, our measure of value is just in these sort of tangible things, you know, our income, our title, our job, but it's also in the life that we have lived, all of these experiences and the people and the network and the health that we have, this is all, these are all assets. And so when you're in that
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
terrifying moment of feeling lost and life is uncertain, the fear is telling you, hold on to what is certain. What is certain? And I think you will find the courage and the motivation that you are lacking.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
This is a good one because my gosh, what is more American pie? What is more American dream than buying a house, right? And I would say to that person, let's first unpack why you're afraid you'll never be a homeowner. What is it about? Are you worried that you're not going to... It's too expensive. Well, yes, but more than that, that if you don't buy the house, you won't be wealthy.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
You won't build wealth. You won't have security for your family. You won't be able to be considered a financial adult because we associate so many of those things with the act of a home purchase in our culture. So I think that also there is also a fear of like, if I don't do this grand thing with my money, if I don't buy a home, am I really financially mature?
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
Am I really going to be doing the right things with my money? Rent? Oh, I've just heard that that's money down the drain. So I would look at that. I would examine that and go, why do you think this? Who told you this?
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
That's a real fear. That's a real fear because the cost of living, there's so many unknowns in retirement, the cost of healthcare, and we're living longer. So we need more money to support us in retirement. So if that is your fear, then I want you to imagine, go to the dark place. You're 75 years old. You still have to work.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
You don't want to be working and you're tired and you don't get to see your grandkids. You don't get to see your friends. Well, this sounds sucky.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
Are you motivated to do something after hearing this? I hope so. This is what I'm trying to condition you to be inspired to do. Don't just sit in the what if. Go to the place where things have really fallen apart for you because you are scared now. But I'm going to tell you, there's a lot scarier things for you waiting for you if you don't do something today.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
And that's what we have to sort of hold fear in balance. You know, what you fear today versus the scary place you might be in five years from now, 10 years from now, because you didn't act healthfully with this fear. You didn't use this fear to motivate you to take some steps that could help you make some progress.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
I mean, Mel, that story you gave about the restaurant going out of business and you were afraid. And what did you do? You went out and made a ton of money and you worked and worked and worked. And it wasn't sustainable, but... And it wasn't a ton of money in the beginning, let's be honest.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
So I don't really like to talk about how to stop fearing it. What I want to reframe is how to have a conversation with your fear. So we tend to go through life reacting to fear, often in knee-jerk ways. We freeze, we fly, and we... What's the third one? Freeze, fly, fight. Fight. I want to offer a fourth option, which is figure it out.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
That's my fourth F. And by figuring it out, I mean like realizing that maybe fear showed up for a reason. And I'm not talking about like fear of heights or fear of, you know, I'm talking about like when you're at the crossroads of life and you have to make a financial decision and the stakes are high. If you're afraid, there's probably a reason because you're worried about risk.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
You're worried about losing money. This is not a small thing. And so in that moment, I offer queries in the book. Here are things that you can ask yourself that can help you create some sense of a roadmap for where to go next. Like fear does not want you to keep you stuck. Diane Fossey, she studied apes. She was a primatologist and she said,
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
essentially taught us all that fear has an evolutionary purpose. It's here to protect us. She wandered around with apes in one experiment and realized that inevitably there was always a subset of apes that were always on the periphery. They were always like sleeping with one eye open. And she wondered, well, what if we remove them from the community?
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
And when that happened, the community was obliterated. And she realized that In culture, in society, there's always sort of like a border of people who are always like sort of on the fringe. I'm the Tarsu in Farsi. It's like the fearful one. And I'm proud of that because for me, it's how I protected myself. And as we've evolved as humans...
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
you know, maybe we're no longer in primitive era, but we have evolved and fear has evolved with us to be there for us when we're trying to make decisions that are more self-aligned, that we can feel like protected doing something that is scary. So honor it. And how you honor it, we've talked about it already a little bit, is like sort of trace it to its root, figure out how it got here.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
What's the story? Fear is, of losing money, could this have been sourced from when you were younger and you saw your parents go bankrupt? You saw your father lose his job or your mother lose her job. And now you have carried that fear into your adult life and you don't believe that you can have it any better. Sometimes that's important because it's a wake-up call.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
of losing it all, imagine losing it all, like go to the dark place. Because what we have found is that the fear of losing money it takes place, that fear sort of bubbles up in the same place as like physical pain in the brain. And what do we want more than anything when we experience physical pain? We want a solution. We want to fix it.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
So I often say when people are like sort of just living in this cloud of fear, like what if, what if, what if? It's like, no, let's actually make it really urgent. Like what if tomorrow you did lose your job? What if tomorrow you did make a bad investment and it wiped out your savings? Go there. Imagine what you would do in that moment. Who would you call?
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
What would you stop spending your money on? Where would you allocate the resources? And rather than making it a hypothetical, this is your roadmap. This is your plan of action. This is what you need to do today.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
We often live in this like cloud of fear. You know, I say people often worry about what if, and that's normal. You know, what if this happens? What if that happens? But you're not serving yourself when you just are going, you're chasing your tail. So stop. And this may seem really mean to say, but like, I want you to go to the edge.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
I want you to imagine like what would actually happen if you did, if that what if became a what now, like it's happening. It's happening today. Bring it to your doorstep. And yeah, how would it play out? You're not going to just sit there. You're going to do something. That's true. You're going to be mobilized. And now you know what you have to do.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
So for the person who's afraid of losing their job, it's amazing what happens. So many chips fall into place. Like I'm going to go figure out what my state's unemployment insurance is. I want to go look at my budget actually, because maybe I would have enough to cover me for a couple of months while I'm getting back on my feet.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
It's normal. When you fear money, you're a human being. There is cause for this. But what if I told you that fear can be your friend? That when fear shows up, it's an opportunity to listen to it, to unpack it. When we are able to face our fears... I think we're only getting closer to who we really are, what we value, what we want to protect, and what a way to walk through life.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
So if you can accept that and appreciate that, especially in the context of your financial life, fear in your financial life, it will make you more motivated and more more excited to do the sort of nitty gritty with your money, which is the saving and the investing and all that. But now you really have this desire because what fear has taught you is that you have a lot to protect.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
you have a lot to honor in your life. It's my offer as so many people have come to me over the years asking me about how to do this, how to do that. And I go, wait a minute. Yes, we're gonna get to how to, but let's talk about the fear that you're feeling and why it's there and what it might be educating you on. Amazing.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
Because what does that mean? It means that you're not afraid of risk and consequence. You're not worried about things backfiring. You're just walking through life believing that you're invincible. I can't afford that. I can't. Personally, I can't afford that. I need to be constantly thinking about how this is going to impact my life, my kids' lives. And that's okay. I don't want to lose that fear.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
I want to be able to... have a relationship with that kind of fear.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
Oh, thank you, Mel. It's my honor. Thanks for bringing me back to my roots. This is kind of near where I'm from, so I feel like it's such a privilege to be here.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
Oh, my gosh. Such a such a pro. Wow. You know, when I first learned I was going to be on your podcast, I was like, I'm not a scientist. I'm not a doctor. Neither am I. I know. But you're I was very intimidated by just knowing the caliber of guests you bring on. And I was hoping to, you know, arise to the occasion. I hope I did.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
Yeah, I've been a financial advisor for 20 years and people are like, what, you're writing a book about fear? Yes, because it is the emotional underpinning of so many of our financial questions. When people come to me and they say, should I buy a house? Should I get married, divorce, have kids, take the job, quit the job, start the business, file for bankruptcy?
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
There is advice there to be given that is tactical, but to really get to the root of the solution, you have to go deeper and usually address the fear. I want to first start by saying that fear can be... a tool in your life. Why are we all wrapped up in this idea of being fearless? I am a daughter of immigrants. I am a daughter of the 1980s in Worcester, Massachusetts. I grew up terrified.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
And I say, you know, things worked out. And it wasn't because I abandoned fear. It was because I got to a point in my 20s when I was trying to be fearless and I would get into a make a mess of things. But I said, you know what? This fear is not going away. I am just that person that has this fervor all the time.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
And I thought, let me like look at it and try to understand what it's trying to tell me. Perhaps fear is here with a message.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
Imagine a world where you can make your own financial choices for yourself, by yourself. You have autonomy. You have agency. You can choose for yourself. Choose to stay in a job, not stay in a job. Stay in a marriage, not stay in a marriage. Start a business, not do it. And I'm not saying those things are easy, but with money and with financial independence comes so much confidence.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
You can sleep better at night and... You know, the world's a scary place sometimes and with money helps. When you experience fear in your financial life, which for me sometimes is a lot of the time, I think that if you are able to apply some of these learnings, you will not experience fear as paralysis. You will experience it as opportunity.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
to know that when fear arrives in your financial life, it doesn't want to create stasis or keep you stuck. It wants you to find a solution to help you. To engage with your fear is to engage with your values, to engage with what's important to you and what you want to protect. And you have to be clear on these things before you make any financial decision.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
So when you're good with fear, you can be good with money. So I take it it's normal to be afraid of money? Yes. I mean, money is a limited resource, okay? Money inherently creates scarcity in our minds. And that is terrifying because you make a financial decision, you can't rewind, and now you're with less money than when you started potentially.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
There is risk inherent to making certain financial decisions. And money is personal. So when we make a financial choice or decision, or we think about something financially related, we can't help but make it really personal and think about, well, what does it say about me? If I do this thing, how is it going to reflect on me? All the list of fears that you mentioned make 100% sense to me.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
Because as humans, we want to protect our resources, right? And money, I mean, talk about an important resource.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
It's a tool. It is an important tool. It's a tool that's going to give you access. It's going to help you create a bridge in your life when you need it most. I got into this space as a financial author, as a journalist, not because I had all the credentials, but because when I was young, I saw my parents argue about money constantly. I saw how it was weaponized.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
Listen, money can be a tool for good and it can be a tool for evil, for bad. And In my parents' marriage, I saw as a result of my father being the breadwinner and the fact that he was a man and he associated his manhood with financial dominance. My mother also had her own issues in terms of not speaking the language. So she wasn't able to work right away in America as immigrants.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
They came from Iran. And I watched them fight around money and money. On the one hand, I was grateful. I grew up in a household where we did talk about money freely as Middle Easterners, that culturally it's not as taboo. But often the topics around money were discussed with, I say, with fists banging on kitchen tables. It was a lot of crying. It was a lot of silent treatment.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
And I quickly saw, I mean, this was it. This is my origin story. I saw how, especially as a woman, if you don't have access to your own money and feel empowered around your finances, then someone will make the decisions for you. And they're not always decisions that you want. They're not always in your best interest. So money, you need it. It's not a nice to have.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
Everybody needs money, particularly women. We don't think that it's our domain. because we've been told it's not, he'll take care of it. You know, I've been to restaurants where they give me a menu and my menu doesn't have any prices on it. This is not in America, by the way. This was when my husband and I went on a trip to the Caribbean. And I go, what's going on? Is it a prefix?
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
Like, did we miss the sign in the front? This is going to be like a, you know, and the waitress will say, no, no, madam, you should not have to worry about such things. And I said, it can't escape me. This follows me everywhere. And I make more in my relationship. So I had to have a good laugh about that because it's like, really, I don't have to worry about money? It's all I do.
The Mel Robbins Podcast
The #1 Money Rule to Live By: Understand The Psychology of Money
I think that this is important for women to believe that it is not just a nice to have, that being financially independent is your right. I'm really glad that you're saying that.