Helene Cooper

There's also, there's a larger critique that Hexeth and Trump and a lot of the right-leaning Republicans in Congress are lobbying against the military at this time, and that's that the Pentagon is too woke.

There's also, there's a larger critique that Hexeth and Trump and a lot of the right-leaning Republicans in Congress are lobbying against the military at this time, and that's that the Pentagon is too woke.

You're hearing that all the time.

You're hearing that all the time.

They're angry because military schools have included books that mention critical race theory. They're very angry that transgender troops are being allowed to have medical care in the military. They're angry that Lloyd Austin, for instance, has in their mind circumvented the Supreme Court ruling against Roe v. Wade by agreeing that the military will

They're angry because military schools have included books that mention critical race theory. They're very angry that transgender troops are being allowed to have medical care in the military. They're angry that Lloyd Austin, for instance, has in their mind circumvented the Supreme Court ruling against Roe v. Wade by agreeing that the military will

pay the medical travel fees for service members who need to get abortions. All of this stuff is wrapped up in these culture wars that the right wing of the Republican Party is lobbying against the Pentagon. And right in the middle of that is the whole diversity thing.

pay the medical travel fees for service members who need to get abortions. All of this stuff is wrapped up in these culture wars that the right wing of the Republican Party is lobbying against the Pentagon. And right in the middle of that is the whole diversity thing.

The American military is supposed to be apolitical. Like the FBI, the military is supposed to stay in place regardless of who the president is. Some of the greatest generals in history made a point of the fact that they didn't vote, like George Marshall. Even at one point, Ulysses S. Grant, back when he was a general fighting the Civil War, didn't vote in 1864 for the president.

The American military is supposed to be apolitical. Like the FBI, the military is supposed to stay in place regardless of who the president is. Some of the greatest generals in history made a point of the fact that they didn't vote, like George Marshall. Even at one point, Ulysses S. Grant, back when he was a general fighting the Civil War, didn't vote in 1864 for the president.

Absolutely. Even before Trump won, there was a lot of questioning at the Pentagon about whether if he won, C.Q. Brown would be able to stick around. And the question was formed again and again, would he resign? And C.Q. Brown told his troops, he told workers in the Joint Staff, he told everybody under him, he told reporters that he would never resign.

Absolutely. Even before Trump won, there was a lot of questioning at the Pentagon about whether if he won, C.Q. Brown would be able to stick around. And the question was formed again and again, would he resign? And C.Q. Brown told his troops, he told workers in the Joint Staff, he told everybody under him, he told reporters that he would never resign.

He had already gotten to a higher position in the military than he ever thought he could, that he has taken an oath to the Constitution and that he would not walk away from it without serving his full term. And he kind of felt that he might be able to write it out.

He had already gotten to a higher position in the military than he ever thought he could, that he has taken an oath to the Constitution and that he would not walk away from it without serving his full term. And he kind of felt that he might be able to write it out.

I heard from a couple of joint staffers that Trump had said, I think you're doing a good job, but that's hearing it, you know, second or third hand. We hear from Trump people that by that point, Trump may have already decided that he was getting rid of C.Q. Brown.

I heard from a couple of joint staffers that Trump had said, I think you're doing a good job, but that's hearing it, you know, second or third hand. We hear from Trump people that by that point, Trump may have already decided that he was getting rid of C.Q. Brown.

Michael, there is no official explanation. Hexeth calls him up and tells him, I'm sorry you're being fired. President Trump posts that on Truth Social. Neither man says why in their public explanation why they're firing C.Q. Brown. They thank him for his service and move on to announcing his replacement.

Michael, there is no official explanation. Hexeth calls him up and tells him, I'm sorry you're being fired. President Trump posts that on Truth Social. Neither man says why in their public explanation why they're firing C.Q. Brown. They thank him for his service and move on to announcing his replacement.

But I talked to a number of people, both in the Trump administration and close to Trump, outside of the administration. And what they tell me that Trump and Hegseth arrived at was this belief that in that video, C.Q. Brown picked a side. And the side he picked was a side that embraced diversity, equity, and inclusion. And that, in the minds of Trump and Hegseth, Today, in 2025, is the wrong side.

But I talked to a number of people, both in the Trump administration and close to Trump, outside of the administration. And what they tell me that Trump and Hegseth arrived at was this belief that in that video, C.Q. Brown picked a side. And the side he picked was a side that embraced diversity, equity, and inclusion. And that, in the minds of Trump and Hegseth, Today, in 2025, is the wrong side.

So Trump chooses a retired Lieutenant General Dan Cain, who goes by the call sign of Raisin Cain, which Trump loves, to replace C.Q. Brown. Both men are fighter pilots, but Dan Cain has three stars and retired. C.Q. Brown had four stars. Trump fell in love with Dan Cain in Trump's own telling in 2018 when he made a spur-of-the-moment December trip to Iraq.

So Trump chooses a retired Lieutenant General Dan Cain, who goes by the call sign of Raisin Cain, which Trump loves, to replace C.Q. Brown. Both men are fighter pilots, but Dan Cain has three stars and retired. C.Q. Brown had four stars. Trump fell in love with Dan Cain in Trump's own telling in 2018 when he made a spur-of-the-moment December trip to Iraq.

And one of the many places that Trump told a version of this story was at the Conservative Political Action Conference in 2024.

And one of the many places that Trump told a version of this story was at the Conservative Political Action Conference in 2024.

And Trump says, and you know, I keep saying Trump says and attributing this to Trump because Trump has told this story many times and the story changes each time.

And Trump says, and you know, I keep saying Trump says and attributing this to Trump because Trump has told this story many times and the story changes each time.

I'll kill for you, sir. According to Trump, Dan Cain said, I love you. I'll kill for you, sir.

I'll kill for you, sir. According to Trump, Dan Cain said, I love you. I'll kill for you, sir.

This is a big deal in the military, and that's because you want a military that is not going to be the arm of a political party. So that's why what happened was so surprising.

This is a big deal in the military, and that's because you want a military that is not going to be the arm of a political party. So that's why what happened was so surprising.

Trump claims that Dan Cain put on a MAGA hat, which would be against military law to be that partisan, and that pretty much cemented it for Donald Trump by all accounts. It should be noted that General Cain has told his aides that he has never put on a MAGA hat.

Trump claims that Dan Cain put on a MAGA hat, which would be against military law to be that partisan, and that pretty much cemented it for Donald Trump by all accounts. It should be noted that General Cain has told his aides that he has never put on a MAGA hat.

It's such a good question, Michael. It says a lot about Donald Trump and how Donald Trump considers the military, again, as an extension of his own administration, which is not supposed to be. We could have a whole session, the two of us, on just the dangers of a politicized military, and that could take up hours and hours of talking. But that is what Donald Trump considers

It's such a good question, Michael. It says a lot about Donald Trump and how Donald Trump considers the military, again, as an extension of his own administration, which is not supposed to be. We could have a whole session, the two of us, on just the dangers of a politicized military, and that could take up hours and hours of talking. But that is what Donald Trump considers

threatened many times in his actions during his first term. And he was walked back by the generals he had in the military who fought this. And now he is beginning his second term in the exact same place, except he seems to be pushing it even harder.

threatened many times in his actions during his first term. And he was walked back by the generals he had in the military who fought this. And now he is beginning his second term in the exact same place, except he seems to be pushing it even harder.

I don't know the answer to that, Michael.

I don't know the answer to that, Michael.

Well, I can't speak to Donald Trump's worldview. But based on the conversations that I've had, the message received by black men in the military is that you cannot succeed alone. unless you're willing to never mention any of the trials and challenges that you may have faced as a Black man.

Well, I can't speak to Donald Trump's worldview. But based on the conversations that I've had, the message received by black men in the military is that you cannot succeed alone. unless you're willing to never mention any of the trials and challenges that you may have faced as a Black man.

Well, the story of how C.Q. Brown came to be fired by President Trump is really a story of perceived disloyalty. It's a story of a president who does not understand that the military is not supposed to be a political extension of himself. And it's a story of only the second black man to become chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

Well, the story of how C.Q. Brown came to be fired by President Trump is really a story of perceived disloyalty. It's a story of a president who does not understand that the military is not supposed to be a political extension of himself. And it's a story of only the second black man to become chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

And don't talk about anything that the United States government may have done or not done to contribute to that.

And don't talk about anything that the United States government may have done or not done to contribute to that.

the military's highest-ranking officer, and his efforts to live and exist in his own skin, an effort that I think just ran afoul of Trump's own notions of loyalty and disloyalty.

the military's highest-ranking officer, and his efforts to live and exist in his own skin, an effort that I think just ran afoul of Trump's own notions of loyalty and disloyalty.

Well, C.Q. Brown, as a kid, he was called Chuck, Chuck Brown. He's named after his father and grandfather. And he grew up in San Antonio, Texas, wanting to be an architect. His father, on the other hand, had been in the Army and really liked the idea of military service for his son. encouraged him to join the ROTC when he got to college. Brown joined the ROTC, but he wasn't very into it at first.

Well, C.Q. Brown, as a kid, he was called Chuck, Chuck Brown. He's named after his father and grandfather. And he grew up in San Antonio, Texas, wanting to be an architect. His father, on the other hand, had been in the Army and really liked the idea of military service for his son. encouraged him to join the ROTC when he got to college. Brown joined the ROTC, but he wasn't very into it at first.

He once told me until he went up in his first airplane. It was a T-37 twin engine, noisy airplane that pilots affectionately call Tweety Bird. He was hooked from that moment on. He wanted to be a pilot. Wow. Not everyone's normal path. No, no. Architect or fighter pilot. So he went on to join the Air Force and he became a fighter pilot. He flew F-16s throughout his career.

He once told me until he went up in his first airplane. It was a T-37 twin engine, noisy airplane that pilots affectionately call Tweety Bird. He was hooked from that moment on. He wanted to be a pilot. Wow. Not everyone's normal path. No, no. Architect or fighter pilot. So he went on to join the Air Force and he became a fighter pilot. He flew F-16s throughout his career.

He led a squadron first and then continues to be promoted. He ends up at CENTCOM, Central Command. where he's like the number two at the Air Force there during the Iraq and Syria fights, where he gets a reputation of being very calm in the storm. One of his commanders at the time who said that, you know, whenever he walked out the door, there would be some crisis or another.

He led a squadron first and then continues to be promoted. He ends up at CENTCOM, Central Command. where he's like the number two at the Air Force there during the Iraq and Syria fights, where he gets a reputation of being very calm in the storm. One of his commanders at the time who said that, you know, whenever he walked out the door, there would be some crisis or another.

And he'd say, who's in charge? And if somebody said CQ, he would calm down because he knew just how steady in a storm CQ Brown was. So he's built this reputation. He accumulates 130 combat flying hours. He's all over the world for the Air Force. And he eventually lands at Pacific Command, where he becomes the head of the United States Air Force in the Pacific.

And he'd say, who's in charge? And if somebody said CQ, he would calm down because he knew just how steady in a storm CQ Brown was. So he's built this reputation. He accumulates 130 combat flying hours. He's all over the world for the Air Force. And he eventually lands at Pacific Command, where he becomes the head of the United States Air Force in the Pacific.

And he is recommended to President Trump to be the next Air Force chief of staff by Mark Esper, who was the defense secretary at the time.

And he is recommended to President Trump to be the next Air Force chief of staff by Mark Esper, who was the defense secretary at the time.

It's a huge promotion because that means that he would be not only a four-star general, but he would be commanding the United States Air Force, something no black man or woman or anyone other than a white man had ever done.

It's a huge promotion because that means that he would be not only a four-star general, but he would be commanding the United States Air Force, something no black man or woman or anyone other than a white man had ever done.

So in announcing the appointment, Trump is enthusiastic. He notes that he's a patriot. He notes that he's going to be the first African-American appointed to this post.

So in announcing the appointment, Trump is enthusiastic. He notes that he's a patriot. He notes that he's going to be the first African-American appointed to this post.

In fact, his swearing-in ceremony takes place inside the White House and is administered by Trump. Wow.

In fact, his swearing-in ceremony takes place inside the White House and is administered by Trump. Wow.

Donald Trump is the man who set C.Q. Brown up to eventually become the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. The way the military works is that the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff can only be appointed from a specific pool of Of military officials.

Donald Trump is the man who set C.Q. Brown up to eventually become the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. The way the military works is that the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff can only be appointed from a specific pool of Of military officials.

You have to be either the Army Chief of Staff, the Navy Chief of Naval Operations, the Air Force Chief of Staff, the Marine Commandant, or you have to be one of the four-star combatant command. You've got to be one of those people. So it's a very limited pool from which the president chooses the next senior commander. military official, the next chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

You have to be either the Army Chief of Staff, the Navy Chief of Naval Operations, the Air Force Chief of Staff, the Marine Commandant, or you have to be one of the four-star combatant command. You've got to be one of those people. So it's a very limited pool from which the president chooses the next senior commander. military official, the next chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

And it's Donald Trump who elevates C.Q. Brown to the position from which his successor, Joe Biden, can pick him as the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

And it's Donald Trump who elevates C.Q. Brown to the position from which his successor, Joe Biden, can pick him as the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

But right in the middle of this, Michael, comes George Floyd. So Trump has nominated C.Q. Brown, the Pacific Air Force commander, to be the next Air Force chief. And then George Floyd is killed on Memorial Day in 2020. And that killing ignites this huge movement for social justice that takes over the country. I remember it well. Yeah. And C.Q.

But right in the middle of this, Michael, comes George Floyd. So Trump has nominated C.Q. Brown, the Pacific Air Force commander, to be the next Air Force chief. And then George Floyd is killed on Memorial Day in 2020. And that killing ignites this huge movement for social justice that takes over the country. I remember it well. Yeah. And C.Q.

Brown's son, who's college-aged at the time, comes up to him and says, Dad, what is Pacific Command going to do about this? Huh. And what does he mean by that? Brown said to me he knew that was code for, what are you going to say about this? What is my dad, this prominent Black military leader, going to do and say? And so C.Q. Brown made a video.

Brown's son, who's college-aged at the time, comes up to him and says, Dad, what is Pacific Command going to do about this? Huh. And what does he mean by that? Brown said to me he knew that was code for, what are you going to say about this? What is my dad, this prominent Black military leader, going to do and say? And so C.Q. Brown made a video.

Nice to be here, Michael.

Nice to be here, Michael.

It's a four minute and 49 second video. He's sitting in his fatigues against a black backdrop. And it's extremely stark.

It's a four minute and 49 second video. He's sitting in his fatigues against a black backdrop. And it's extremely stark.

And he just talks about being a black man. He talks about living in the skin that God gave him.

And he just talks about being a black man. He talks about living in the skin that God gave him.

It's a complicated message that he actually manages to convey. He talks about the pride he felt in joining the Air Force. He says, my country tis of thee, sweet land of liberty.

It's a complicated message that he actually manages to convey. He talks about the pride he felt in joining the Air Force. He says, my country tis of thee, sweet land of liberty.

But it's said a little bit ironically because he's also talking about what so many Black men before him had gone through.

But it's said a little bit ironically because he's also talking about what so many Black men before him had gone through.

He talks about being in the Air Force and being the only Black man in his squadron.

He talks about being in the Air Force and being the only Black man in his squadron.

He talks about being shunned in some ways by some of his Black friends who don't understand why he's hanging out with his white fighter squadron at the same time. That's what I'm thinking about.

He talks about being shunned in some ways by some of his Black friends who don't understand why he's hanging out with his white fighter squadron at the same time. That's what I'm thinking about.

And I was really surprised at the fact that he managed to get all this stuff across while at the same time keeping it completely focused on his own life. He's not speaking for anybody else. He's speaking for himself. And he talks about being very aware of the weight of what he is going to have to carry.

And I was really surprised at the fact that he managed to get all this stuff across while at the same time keeping it completely focused on his own life. He's not speaking for anybody else. He's speaking for himself. And he talks about being very aware of the weight of what he is going to have to carry.

It electrifies the Pentagon. My phone started ringing off the hook. Everybody was talking about it. Did you see the C.Q. Brown video? Did you see the C.Q. Brown video? Everybody was passing it around at the Pentagon. And there was a little bit of concern, sort of like trepidation about, wow, how is Trump going to react?

It electrifies the Pentagon. My phone started ringing off the hook. Everybody was talking about it. Did you see the C.Q. Brown video? Did you see the C.Q. Brown video? Everybody was passing it around at the Pentagon. And there was a little bit of concern, sort of like trepidation about, wow, how is Trump going to react?

He doesn't have a public reaction in the moment. There's a lot going on at the time. Right. It's the pandemic. It's the pandemic. There are the Black Lives Matter protests going on. And he's already fighting with his military because at the time, Trump wants to deploy active duty American troops online.

He doesn't have a public reaction in the moment. There's a lot going on at the time. Right. It's the pandemic. It's the pandemic. There are the Black Lives Matter protests going on. And he's already fighting with his military because at the time, Trump wants to deploy active duty American troops online.

onto the streets against the protesters and even asked the defense secretary, Mark Esper, who says no. He and Mark Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff at the time, argue ferociously against deploying active duty American troops in the streets. And Trump is very angry at them. Meanwhile, C.Q.

onto the streets against the protesters and even asked the defense secretary, Mark Esper, who says no. He and Mark Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff at the time, argue ferociously against deploying active duty American troops in the streets. And Trump is very angry at them. Meanwhile, C.Q.

Brown has now, by releasing that video, seems to have allied himself with Millie and Esper, who Trump now hates. And Trump will not forget it.

Brown has now, by releasing that video, seems to have allied himself with Millie and Esper, who Trump now hates. And Trump will not forget it.

So Joe Biden becomes president and C.Q. Brown is the Air Force chief of staff. Everything begins really well. C.Q. Brown, as the Air Force Chief of Staff, is very focused on modernization. He's focused on great power conflict with China and Russia. He's focused on Air Force readiness. That's the military speak for being ready to fight tonight.

So Joe Biden becomes president and C.Q. Brown is the Air Force chief of staff. Everything begins really well. C.Q. Brown, as the Air Force Chief of Staff, is very focused on modernization. He's focused on great power conflict with China and Russia. He's focused on Air Force readiness. That's the military speak for being ready to fight tonight.

Well, on Friday night, President Trump fired three very senior Pentagon officials. One of those people is the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Charles Q. Brown, known everywhere as C.Q. Brown, who is the highest-ranking military official in the country. This was known as the Friday night massacre at the Pentagon because it was so stunning for the simple reason that

Well, on Friday night, President Trump fired three very senior Pentagon officials. One of those people is the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Charles Q. Brown, known everywhere as C.Q. Brown, who is the highest-ranking military official in the country. This was known as the Friday night massacre at the Pentagon because it was so stunning for the simple reason that

Yes. And C.Q. Brown focuses on that while he is in the Air Force. And he also makes another video. When I'm flying, I put my helmet on, my visor down, my mask up. C.Q. Brown is narrating it. And it's this video that shows all these fighter pilots taking off in fighter jets. You don't know who I am.

Yes. And C.Q. Brown focuses on that while he is in the Air Force. And he also makes another video. When I'm flying, I put my helmet on, my visor down, my mask up. C.Q. Brown is narrating it. And it's this video that shows all these fighter pilots taking off in fighter jets. You don't know who I am.

He says if you're the enemy, you can't tell if I'm black or woman or white or Asian-American.

He says if you're the enemy, you can't tell if I'm black or woman or white or Asian-American.

All you know is I'm an American airman about to kick your butt.

All you know is I'm an American airman about to kick your butt.

It looks straight out of Top Gun. They play that video at the NBA All-Star game, and it boosts recruitment. That's fascinating.

It looks straight out of Top Gun. They play that video at the NBA All-Star game, and it boosts recruitment. That's fascinating.

Yes. So not long after in 2023, it's time for a new chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. And Joe Biden decides that he wants C.Q. Brown for the job. At the same time, Lloyd Austin, who is also African-American, is the Secretary of Defense. For the first time in its history, the American military and Pentagon are being run by two black men. And there's instantly a fear that,

Yes. So not long after in 2023, it's time for a new chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. And Joe Biden decides that he wants C.Q. Brown for the job. At the same time, Lloyd Austin, who is also African-American, is the Secretary of Defense. For the first time in its history, the American military and Pentagon are being run by two black men. And there's instantly a fear that,

inside the Pentagon among people of color, that this is going to inflame the MAGA world.

inside the Pentagon among people of color, that this is going to inflame the MAGA world.

Pete Hegseth, who at the time is a Fox weekend anchor, He writes in his book, The War on Warriors, that C.Q. Brown was promoted because he's African-American. He says, I think that may be unfair to him, but since he's made race his biggest calling card, he'll have to live with it or words to that effect. Hmm.

Pete Hegseth, who at the time is a Fox weekend anchor, He writes in his book, The War on Warriors, that C.Q. Brown was promoted because he's African-American. He says, I think that may be unfair to him, but since he's made race his biggest calling card, he'll have to live with it or words to that effect. Hmm.