Ivan Balabanov

Do they work their own dogs or you mix the dogs?

Oh, it's never. It's like I would not do good at this.

So what do you like if you have one of these guys and they're about to go into the championship tomorrow or a week from whatever, what kind of structure would you, what would be some advice, like, as far as testing the dogs, how, like, I guess what I'm asking is how can somebody really put mental pressure, because that's pretty much what is left without the stick yet, and be a

and be effective, at least with some of the dogs, because I don't think every dog can get affected by only posturing. But what is something that would be second best, I guess, that you don't have the stick hits? What kind of advice would you give

With the attitude?

Right. Make good eye contact. Make like, hey, I'm here and I'm not going anywhere. Yeah. So. What do you think between if you go really fast drive with a lot of like maybe make like 35 motions with a stick versus much slow down drive. Do you think one is better than another or it would really matter?

I like it.

Right, and take the time in that pressure phase, right? And then you will, typically you will actually give opportunity to the judge to see how stable the grip is, where the dog wants to be. instead of just kind of and it's gone, right? But it seems like the tendency is what is considered correct work. It's that kind of fast.

Yes, there is some pressure and drive or whatever you want to call it now without the stick hits, but it's much quicker than I think it should, right? Me too, yeah.

So they are picking the dog up and they are going to run from A to B. And the dog has not much, like nobody can see and the dog cannot really show you what goes on.

Yeah. How, like if you were to teach a beginner helper, I was gonna say young helper, but it doesn't need to be young or male or female, but a beginner helper, once they start to get a good feel and you feel that they have the coordination, What would be some of the drills and techniques that you're going to teach for, let's say, for the long bites?

Rotation meaning?

And I know now some of the helpers that are listening and the handlers that are listening for sure are going like, whoa, going too strong at the dog. How do we prevent the dangerous collisions and stuff? How do we, you know, and sometimes, of course, this can happen no matter what. But what is the what kind of drills and suggestions? How do you?

And in those eight years, what are like big competitions and stuff you've done?

Right. There has to be some...

How do you feel about the half-sleeves and anything else besides the normal sleeve for the long bites? Do you ever use or do you advise? I will tell you my thing with it. I always go back and forth and typically I like to stay with the real sleeve. whenever possible, just because I think the picture is very different. But what's your take on?

The movement is different. The picture is different. Tell me about the... Some dogs, well, you're from Holland, you know, like, I mean, you take any GMPV Dutch Shepherd and they fly for 10 meters. Some dogs are just naturally born. There is nothing to teach. That's what they want to do. They want to fly. And some dogs want to make sure that you cannot get away and they're stable.

So they don't want to go in the air too much. What do you think about... I mean, I'll just leave it open and talk to me about the different types of dogs and do you change anything in their styles? Do you try to make them, you know, how some trainers would use barriers? I mean, we sometimes do, of course, you know. Although I don't, I'm not a big believer that it's,

really carrying over when you have the obstacles and when you don't have them. But what do you think about the genetic factor and then the training factor of that entry? And does it matter? Yeah, I think it does.

Yeah, that was a good one.

Everybody, people were not, well, people that are not familiar with like the Dutch style of helper work was very surprised, right? True. It's like, oh, what is this? Is this legal?

focus more on using some kind of obstacles or building the confidence or how would you try to encourage a dog that's not so, hey, here I am.

And today my guest is Jan van Maren from the Netherlands.

Definitely some discomfort and frustration that carries over.

It's like, I'll pay you back now.

How much distance plays a role in this, you think? Like, you know, sometimes we say, well, let's do a short, long bite. But how short becomes not effective? And how long, like what kind of distance do you like to work with typically?

I think typically my opinion is that more of a normal length allows the dog to reach the momentum and work in that speed that typically is going to work instead of, if it's too short, there is not enough time to think about running and then switching to targeting and then catching.

so but you need to go fast to to a normal length yeah i i sometimes find that um when it's not enough distance and you stay for just too many training sessions like this, then the dog doesn't even know how much the body weight changes with the speed. And they're like almost surprised of the body weight that they have on the bike.

You mean in training doing too many things that don't necessarily help with actual... Doesn't benefit the end result. Right, right. Because you're training... It's the same with obedience too. Obedience is even worse because it's like you're doing all these things and... Okay, how is that helping? Do you do...

like you mentioned in the old days about using the pole um i even i mean i love the pole work because it just At least I don't need to worry about a handler doing stupid things with a leash, right? How much of that is... How much do you use the pole versus free work?

Right. And there are many dogs and you have to put them in different categories. So... And you do...

Well, sure. Something goes wrong.

To reach goals instead of... I'm going to keep asking very interesting and kind of tricky questions that are always in everybody's mind. And it's cool to hear from... different parts of the world how top helpers think about the different approaches in helper work so one of the things what what do you think about the the idea with the you know three month four month old puppy and

the bad guys in the bushes and we're playing this boogeyman and the puppy chases them away how how much do you believe in that and do you do you know what i'm talking about yeah it's kind of i think it started with uh i believe it was like hoi vinkel or i don't know it was somewhere At some point it started to be like a thing. It's like, oh, we have to, it's a young puppy.

It needs to see that they can chase in a real kind of scenario. They can be more dominant than somebody in the bushes type of thing.

Jan's coming now quite regularly to us, helping us prepare our dogs in protection as a helper. Today we had the first day of training and we have two more to go. How are you feeling? How is with the time change and everything doing good so far?

And I think this kind of technique, you're right, it's very common with the dogs that are not awake yet, maybe seen it for a moment. It's like, oh, wow. But the dogs that are already thinking this way, and you do too much of that, you know that it's there. but you're really constantly putting them and encouraging this kind of behavior that it becomes at some point too much.

I think it's similar with, you know, when you make the dog, you know, like you put the sleeve down and make the dog really guard and bark on you. And some dogs naturally, they're already there. But the helper that doesn't have much experience is like, oh, that dog is doing exactly what I want to teach this other dog. So I'm going to make myself look good with the dog that's really offering.

But that dog actually needs something different than that kind of work. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, I know what you say.

How soon with a dog that maybe it's not really solid in protection, but how soon do you start to add some obedience components in the protection?

So just to... How is the interest now for the sport in Holland? Like some countries it's not so much and some countries is getting actually more interest than you expect. Yeah.

Understand that obedience brings. Yeah. brings good things instead of restricting, right?

And it extends the duration of the session. Well, yeah. What do you feel about the training when now seems to be quite popular, a lot of the behaviors are trained by the trainer without a helper? Like almost every part of the routine can be trained without a helper versus with the helper. How do you think about that?

So I'll give you an example. You know how a lot of, let's say, let's pick exercise where you're going to put the ball on the ground, soccer ball or whatever, and then you're going to say helper and the dog switches from eye contact to the ball and then make some steps to back transfer, things like this. Do you think that has any value? Yes, I think so. Yeah, I think so.

The concept of, okay, yeah, this is also, I can apply it here.

What are things that you wouldn't advise? to do without the helper. Is there something that comes to mind that you would say that's better to be done with the helper?

Yeah. So you would say the typical actual bite moments are better off to be done with a helper, right? Yes. what about the barking sometimes like some trainers try to make barking with their dogs and they get it and some cannot get a they get locked in this kind of play yuppie barking how do you feel about the owner doing bark and holds well i think um

But the owner has to know. He has to be able to use the same knowledge as a helper, right? Yeah, sure. That's where... that's probably one of the big problems when the owner of the dog is like, well, that's good barking. That's a good way to start somewhere. And, and then the dog never gets to become more demanding and more dominant in the barking. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

What do you think, Jan, with... I mean, you were able to do one of the biggest world championship, the WSV. And those were the good times. The good times meaning you were able to use the stick hit. And it was very normal part of the program at the time. Yeah.

If you are to pick one of all the exercises in protection, And not necessarily exercises as far as like the competition scenario, but anything that we train about in protection. What would you say is like probably the most important to you?

I would agree, re-attack. And that's why the re-attack actually has so much points comparing to the other exercises, right?

I love how the IGP, whomever thought of the points way back in tracking and obedience and protection, they really seem to understand the difficult parts in the program. So the points, I really think they reflect very nice what is... To get the re-attack to be really nice, what needs to happen? How do you make a dog have that dominance and believe in itself and make that punch? On training? Yeah.

Yeah.

So that preparation before the bite actually, it's what's going to make the bite, right? What about the guarding and the barking? You kind of always seem to know, depending how the dog guards, very rarely you get surprised. the way the re-attack looks like. You can pretty much predict by the way you see how the dog guards, how it barks or how it stares, what it would look like, right?

Now, I think we're going in two years without the stickheads and I was just watching the tzatzit a week ago and the helpers were struggling to try to put some pressure, if you can even call it that. But how do you feel about that big change that happened with the stickheads?

That's kind of what I was thinking is like if the dog is not showing much confidence and almost barely can hold control itself to go into the fight, if it's not there, chances are the re-attack may not be so strong. So... I think creating that really good guard phase will affect the re-attack.

But the guarding phase is a tricky one because nowadays we can really kind of create a picture that looks like I am super strong and look at me barking so hard. But actually, even the dog knows that it's fake in it, right?

You know, I think what's happening, and it's not like nothing new. I mean, that's nothing new that I'm going to say, but good helpers, or I should say helpers that have the talent to be very good. they think of themselves, they put themselves so high that they don't think they should spend their time working the not so strong dogs. But it's the not so strong dogs that can make you a better helper.

Because if you can find a way how to make a dog that doesn't believe in itself, you are starting to enter a different level in your helper work, no?

typically see or hear is the helpers that really, I'm like very good and I'm growing, I'm working up to becoming national selections and so on. they feel like there is nothing for me here. I wanna work the dogs that are going into the competition. I wanna work with the big names people and so on. But as far as the benefit of learning, it's not smart to just work the best dogs, no.

like for you personally what is the if you if you were to have okay these are my top three or top two most interesting parts that i really like to work on regardless of age or breed, like what areas in the protection are the ones that you just really enjoy?

Not that you always have to do because some dogs need it, some don't, but what are something that you really enjoy and you feel really good at it? Like top two.

Yeah, they immediately, I mean, even today, like Tarzan or whomever, it's like, whoa. Jan is back in town. I gotta adjust now. And then they make the adjustments when they can. Of course, they have to be able to. Sure. But yeah, I know exactly what you mean by that. What about age? What do you think? Does that... How soon is too soon or... for working on grips? No, just overall protection.

Just doing IGP. I mean, sometimes trainers are like, okay, I get a puppy and they feel like they don't want to miss anything and the puppy is already... It's four months and it's running six blinds, mini blinds, and it's doing all sorts of like... But then you have a two-year-old dog that hasn't done anything, but genetically very sound and has very good rapport with the owner.

There wasn't any pressure from anywhere as far as nobody knows.

Yes. They don't even sometimes, you're trying to look mean at them and they don't recognize it yet, right? No, because it's too young. Right.

I think it's a different, a difficult question to... No, always. Yeah, I don't think there is one answer, really. No. I... I love when somebody comes to some workshop with a two-year-old dog that just never done anything in protection, but the owner has really good obedience. It's not that they are not doing anything.

It's just the dog is not exposed to protection training, but he has the natural talent for it. I love these dogs because within three days, Yeah, you can reach... It just catch up to the dogs that have been doing it for the last three years very fast too. But yeah, what would be... If you, like I, you know... Sometimes... What do you feel about the dogs that are...

not so sure in the beginning when they are young like when when do you say well i don't think that that's good for the sport it's not like the dog's not really well uh if you start you you want to see some some drives of course uh how's the hunting drive that that

you pick it from the puppies and it's like the puppy that doesn't necessarily go to everybody. And it's just a little more cautious looking around a little bit more.

Because it's really difficult, at least, like it's left to speculation and guess to the judge of, well, is that dog really... And when you have protection, when you have that... fighting between dog and a helper and you take out the most important part which is that little aversiveness in the fight it's like boxing but the shadow boxing you know when you're not punching you're just doing

I love the, again, like with some dogs that are really insecure and there is just impossible to move forward. But often what I find with the dogs that are a little unsure, when they do bark and hold, they do the bark and hold with real intention because they are in conflict. And it's a question, am I good enough or no?

And as long as you show them that they're good enough, what they're putting in front is very real. To where if it's a confident dog, you have to make him... kind of create a little challenge to where they're like, am I really that strong in order to get that same barking?

So in a lot of ways, some of the more insecure dogs to start with, if the helper is able to make them believe, they offer much more, right? Yes. It's an interesting side, the way to look at it. Yeah.

Because they really, every session really matters for them. Yes. They're not like, oh, I'm just so confident.

When you, how, what do you feel, what do you typically, how often protection training with a young dog? What do you think is too much and what do you think it's not enough on an average? Wow.

And it's also the physical and the mental conditioning, the endurance to... But what about the danger of burning out, maybe not becoming so interesting, or maybe pushing too quickly if you go so many sessions?

What are the differences? what do you feel is different between mullies and shepherds? Like when you have a good mullino and a good shepherd, typically you say a good dog is a good dog, so let's leave that alone, but they're still different in some ways, right?

What are, like if we break down the favorite parts of a shepherd versus the high qualities of a mullino, which are the qualities that you like in both dogs? Um, also a difficult question because of course they're all very tricky and they are, there is no one, I don't think there is one answer in any of them.

Getting ready a little too soon.

What about during training? Would you say, well, this is a shepherd, so I kind of know what I'm doing here, and this is a Malinois. I'm going to do it a little bit different. Or you stay with whatever the dog does normally, but you have to have some...

guesses or expectations kind of predicting well because of the breed this can be handled better this way versus this way yeah true um with with Malinois um I'll take um

Because the Mali, they always want to kind of take you up there and you have to keep them where they need to be.

Yes.

Yeah, reckless. Of course. I also think, even though we always look at Malinos and me being a breeder, of course, I have my little bias, but we always say, well, they are more athletic, they are more... They are endurance, but I think... In IGP, in ring sports it's different, but in IGP...

Almost seems like the German Shepherd has a little bit more endurance because they don't burn themselves so quickly in one exercise. Or what do you think as far as endurance in both breeds?

They kind of, just the size, it's kind of the heavy weights.

Yeah. It's a mistake, a lot of big, it's another mistake of, you know, when an experienced helper start to work with a Mali Noah, four, five month old Mali, and that Mali just seems like it's so awake and confident, but they are not. They're just a Mali. They need time. Right, right. And by that time,

if you don't have the experience and you keep pushing and next thing you know the puppy is like well i don't know about that and and it happens i think often with malinois where they are very promising. And then somehow they got pushed overboard too early. And it's like, oh, it's a big setback. With helpers, how much do you think athleticism and physique being strong, being

Like how much do you think that's important? Not for competition. For competition, there is no question. You cannot be weak. You have to have endurance. You have to have athleticism. But as a training helper, to teach, how much do you think that is important?

that moment and well it's sad and a lot of well not a lot but at least some of the influential trainers and people that are having positions in like utility commissions and different boards of the world clubs some of them still very convincing trying to convince everybody that the stick is not needed to evaluate the dog and you can put pressure in a different way and basically there is no reason.

And well, and... I don't know if you're not really fit watching you today. Don't say that. But I tell you, like for me, there is the, you know... I think it's important as who you are, like what you can do. Like if you can jump and bounce around a lot, go ahead.

But if you cannot, then there is a lot that you can compensate and you can, you know, you can really work the dog in with much less movement, but create movement at the same time from the dog without you having to. Yes. So the dog is going to move you. Right. Yeah, certainly. Yeah. And also the whole dominance stuff. What I'm going is a lot of times movement is not necessarily

the right thing always to do, you know?

Because typically the athletic guys, they're quick. They're like, move, move, whip, whip, poof, poof. Yeah, they want to show it. And not even waiting for the dog to respond to anything. They just go, go, go. And the people that don't have that athleticism,

even if they don't want to, but they kind of allow the dog to be in charge and dominate them because they're not so overpowering with their presence and movements, right? I mean, ideally, you have to play both. Yeah, sure. You have to.

You're always good at that time.

How often would you do... Like a dog that already has IGP-3 and everything is going the way it should, how often... Typically, you would do the actual routine or you would work on different pieces? Do you have any certain approach to this?

Right, it's definitely compliance for sure.

When you are into this last stretch, those last two months, how often or do you ever would train the dogs when they know that they don't have any colors to control them? Or you will always have that? You know, sometimes trainers are like, oh, I need to make them see. And then the dog is like, oh, look at me now, right?

Yes. You're like, well, let's see what happens. You don't want to be, let's see what happens. No, no, no.

How do you feel about the bark and hold where the dog in the blind barks at your side for the toy And then on the field, he has a good direct out for the re-attack, but then it shifts back to guarding for the toy. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, I know what you're saying. Where do you stay on this one?

Yeah.

Right, because what are you left with as a helper when you don't have the stick yet?

Yeah, so... But the problem is that the dog is, depending how the command is given, can be ready to attack or go into the guard. So you cannot really...

once they you know once it's a bark and hold and there is no re-attack and the dog is here we know that if there was a re-attack they would fail but there is no re-attack no but for for me a dog has to be in center yeah i i agree i'm with you on this very much i was how how offensive is dog barking if it's on the side right

The original belief was, well, he's doing it because he's very direct into the helper, but that's not why he's doing it. And it's changing even. You know, when... I don't know, was it... One of my... I don't know, maybe Markus Neutz or Edgar Scher... I don't know, somebody. And...

he had a very cool idea, which is impossible to happen, I think, but on discretion of the judge to have an extra attack. Sometimes it's like, okay, make one more attack. So you can show that the dog is not prepared for it, right? But it would be, it would change things.

I think because of that kind of guarding, a lot of helpers even, they actually purposefully are keeping the sleeve in the blind a little way too far away so the dog is easier to come to that side instead of having the sleeve where it should be on the guard. Yeah, the sleeve's also protection for the helper, of course.

I think they're trying a little to change it a little bit and maybe it will change. Who knows? What are things that you... besides the stick hits, anything that you see the direction the sport is going with the protection that you're concerned that you actually wish that we change something about it?

Um, um,

I like this.

Instead of taking that really big step and it's like, oh, you're taking a side step or three side steps instead of coming or at least stay there. Don't come forward, but at least stay there.

So before you came, where were you before you came here? What did you do? Did you travel somewhere?

And then you will really see

changes in in the different dogs they will get exposed for sure and the rules right now let's say before it was only five steps so let's say okay maybe i'm have to be careful because the dog is too fast and i don't have this but now you have three more steps you have enough distance yeah but even with five steps even uh well you should be able to for sure you should be able to

It's that pressure for the helper not to... Well, it's like, okay, I have to be safe. I cannot injure the dog, right? And then when you take it...

too much then you're not challenging the dog no and well um we must going to like it again to to to chase the dogs yeah and it's a short so even if even if there is a real impact there cannot be injury when the dog when the dog understands how to i mean again going back to GMPV dogs, they they don't just fly like this, you know, they know that there will be impact.

So their bodies are ready for the impact. It's always impacted by GMPV. Yeah. So a lot of I think a lot of IGP dogs, all of the training is they don't know if there is an impact, they're not prepared to take correctly impact. Kind of like me, let's say I don't know how to punch a sandbag, I'm going to fuck up my wrist with two punches, I'm going to fuck up my hands.

And it's very much the same window protection. Like the dog has to understand how to make that. And it's safer for the dog ultimately too. Yes. So you have to train it. Right. Right. But there is a lot of... Yeah, it's the... Of course, back in the old days, there was... I know because that's how I grew up.

Right. Meaning keep it kind of drives a little bit changing because. And yeah, there is some yelling and screaming, but. Yeah, but only for the long bite. Yeah. And even then it's, it cannot compare to the stick hit. But what about like in training? Do you like, I mean, you said we like, in fact, there is like our Allbreed program. We have a title that we still can use stick hits.

I know we did some stupid things, but there was a lot of valuable things that now are completely non-existent. And that's one of them. It's like, hey, okay, no. It's like we're talking literally from here to here. I don't need to necessarily, you can feel that impact and that makes you grow, makes you strong, you know?

Yes.

Yeah, that's a very good one. There is always the danger of the dogs getting hurt.

What's the, what's the big issue? Every bite there is really no, no punch. There is nothing. It's like always absorb always. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. When I tell you when, like if a lot of people, if they see a catch like this, they will see a real impact. And the impact is safe, but it's real. And they will be like, whoa, this is a bad catch. And it's not a bad catch. It's just not a... like a butterfly. It's like, that's not what it's about.

What would be your strategy if you feel that the dog is putting this little... two breaks between right at the last moment. It's coming, coming, but it's like, yeah.

Allow the dogs to do more.

There is no reason to do all this. No. But... But the helper wants to make it look like they're good. So it's almost like you're forcing the dog to do all this. And it's like, what are we doing?

you've already gave the dog too much confidence, so now you cannot change it within just a few steps of drive. Exactly.

Yeah, because you have, I mean, it really can be dangerous, especially when somebody does not have the technique and the... ability to move or don't trust themselves. Or there is also the type of helper that, you know, how we say, well, you have to be against the dog.

There are helpers that are really too much in a war with the dog to where they cross a line of, of what is okay within how you can challenge.

I wish that we play by those rules like in a month now we have the AWDF championship. I wish that we play by the rules where the stick hits are allowed and still select the dogs for the FCI because it's a selection trial for FCI, but I don't think we're doing that. In

You don't think?

So how do you recognize a talent? You see a guy that's doing helper work. And maybe it's not even knowing the rules or doesn't know how to really bring a dog, but you see just the raw talent. What are the qualities that you're like, we can make really good something out of this guy?

Yeah. The mentality, it's kind of they have to believe they can. They cannot question like, they have to have the attitude.

For you, for yourself, in a big competition as a trial helper, which part do you like, the front or the back?

Or did that change over the years for you? Like if you have a choice right now and you're going to do a big one and they actually really tell you, which part do you take?

Right. Very true. Because that... That makes you appreciate the catch.

In Holland, for the most part, or at least the people that you work with and that you know, do you guys still use the stick, at least in training?

And I don't know why, but it always seems like sometimes the way the judge sets up the skate bite, it's in a really shitty place where the decoy on the skate bite always ends up getting constantly hit on the side. Do you know? Is that a helper problem or is it the setup?

But not the impact here. I'm talking the impact on your side of your leg. Yeah.

You kind of have to be ready. Just as we were talking earlier, there is an impact.

And maybe you're taking too big steps or something. Something technically you're not doing right.

Sometimes, some judges are actually painting the ass. Some judges are... I hate it when a judge doesn't allow the helper. It's like, no, I'll tell you when to stop. I'll tell you when to start. And it just takes away all the freedom of the helper to really do what... on their timing, you know, it's like, okay, you're with the dog.

Now I have to pay attention for you to tell me instead of deciding, you know, like this interruptions I hate when the judges become so overly controlling of the helper. Yeah.

Yeah, you're still going the same place.

It has to be fair. I just feel that when the judge starts to really tell when to stop, like in a drive, when to start the re-attack. Oh, that shit. It becomes just like, if you don't like what I'm doing, then select a different helper, right? Like, I mean, you're really tying my hands. Yes.

What do you think about the active and silent guards? What do I think about? Like some trainers, some judges. don't like silent guard altogether. Some think it has to be active. Some judges recognizing the silent guard, when the silent is not necessarily a guard, but it's just, I'm just sitting here waiting. I'm not looking away, but I'm sitting and waiting.

Or if it's a active guarding, well, maybe the barking is just kind of, it's very... active but there is no demand and like like well do you have anything it's the same problem in my eyes so um a silent garden can be active as well for sure

Kind of like that dog that Theo Sporrer had at that Satsit last weekend. It was all silent. It was amazing. I mean, it was amazing. Like really, really cool to watch. I don't, and I think it's hard for judges when you see a dog that comes in the blind and makes really, let's say, good rating of barking, and then all the rest of the attacks, everything is silent.

Right, there's got to be a punch.

But you know why it's silent, because the dog just doesn't have that confidence to go, you're mine. It's a tricky thing with the sport. It's interesting.

But they're still in the game.

Because it's easy to forget what you just said, what it really takes to appreciate when somebody comes on the field with their dog, you know?

So would you say if you train with your people, would you pick active versus silent or would you pay attention to what the dog wants or would you change it accordingly to...

Yes, the kids.

The argument always seems to be, well, if you catch the dog in a meat bark, maybe the re-attack's not going to be as good. Yeah, sure. But... Yeah. I think it's a training. I think if the dog knows that it can happen, they would be ready. Yeah. And then sometimes as a helper...

you purposefully have to not just wait for the right moment, but make the re-attack when they're not ready so they know that it can happen. That's all it takes, right?

What kind of breeds do you have? Anything else besides Shepherds and Malys in Holland right now?

Even for that reason only, the stick kit is needed because it makes it interesting and challenging for the good dog, right? And even for the weak dog, they get to work and try to overcome whatever pressure they can handle. And without it, I don't think... I don't think a dog will have enough joy doing protection without the actual fight, because it really presents a different picture.

they need to focus on um on the breedings so yeah they it's like this whole thing like it seems like very rarely now you see a doberman that you know it can make consistently a good long bite or make tight blinds or you know yeah

Oh, it changed. They're gone. Like, it's really sad.

Why do you think that the Shepherds are

Well, I think it's a combination of... But they're still different because, you know, like they could be... Well, the shepherd, they can vary quite a bit in temperament and even size. But for some reason, most of them, they just... They take off, yeah.

But do you think something to do with KNPV selection? Because it continues, it's not going away.

Right, it is somehow.

But I don't think EMPV ever wanted to select for that.

But somehow they are just different and it's cool. Like, I know, like, I mean, even with my dogs, with breeding, you know, like, eight-week-old puppy, I can let it from the one side of the building, let them come for a tug. And you know if they want to fly or not, even though they can't. But you can see they're trying to make the effort. So it's for sure genetic.

And it's like the back. And the grip is always solid and it's always, you know, like. I mean, I'm sure there is hectic dogs and nervy dogs and chewy and.

So, well, do you take any, any, any of the. Techniques or anything from KNPV training? No, not really.

Of course. It's a profession.

It's a very quick turnaround. Yeah, it's different.

What about ring sports? Is Mondio Ring anybody doing?

Very cool, man.

More conversations. Yes. What about PSA? PSA is starting to be really popular all over the place. I mean, here it's definitely a lot of people are involved in it.

Right. Yeah. There were a few times that there was attempts to start KNPV, serious attempts over the years, but never, never happened. It's not a...

Back to IGP now. How much... like most people up to certain level they just want to do protection and don't really understand that having a dog listen to them that they can do good obedience will help them in the protection too is how are the people, the trainers in Holland, do they also like here getting excited about the, yeah, protection, protection, protection. No, it's more multiple phases.

That's a classic European style. I remember my time in Belgium. That was, you know...

but do you think now the like what you know what i'm afraid like how we were talking earlier today after training when we sat down and um i don't know what came up but when we were asking braden if if he ever used the stick hits because the young guys that are starting now after the ban of the stick hits they

Yeah, I know right now if we say, well, I'm going to work the dogs and you choose if you want to do obedience or protection or both or make two protection trainings, most people will be like, I do two protection trainings, I don't do obedience. I'm not understanding how much... how it's important to have obedience and even the fact to do on the same place obedience and protection.

I do, I do. You know, it's different. I don't know. I'm saying I do, but now I'm thinking a little more. I don't know. I don't even believe there are too many clubs left in Europe that are still having that structure. I think...

europe i mean a lot of the clubs are kind of the same like well there is a helper and that helper now charges money for the people to train with them and it's not it's not like the club kind of how it used to be um but maybe maybe it's different in in some places as you say But yeah, I mean, I remember way back in,

it was, you know, just as you said, when it's the weekend and it's time to go training, it's like, that's, that's your day, that's your day. And it kind of, it has all the things like, yes, we'll do tracking, we'll do obedience, we'll do protection, we'll have lunch, or we have the beers after, or, you know.

Yeah. How many people typically, like active people in your club, for example, what do you think? Like 15, 16.

well yeah that's cool yeah it can be better so but yeah sometimes you have if you have too many people it starts to yeah you start to feel the rush right um and some dogs some people don't do well in this kind of

especially when they are quite new right because if you're rushing you're going to a little bit a little bit uh you're stressed anyway and that kind of makes it so do you have are you training anything right now you you're on no

What are the chances, do you think, for the stick hits to come back?

How are people talking in Holland?

like if they don't get exposed to how to do it they like i mean it changes the whole helper work it's like there is nothing you at least in training if you know how to Which is, I mean, it's strange to even think of it and to say it the way I just did. If you know how to give a stick head, but it's true. Because if you don't know how, you cannot even pretend that you are doing it, right?

Right. Otherwise, there is, well... Is the RSV 2000, Helmond, do they do tickets?

I want to think that they do, but I'm not 100% sure.

I think they gain affiliation. So that means they have to follow. So maybe, yeah, you're right. So... Yeah.

What about the... Prong collars and electric collars, what's happening in the Netherlands now? Well, they are... I know there was like this moment two years ago and kind of seemed like it got under control, but now they changed and there is a ban, right?

Prong collars, electric, everything, right? Yes. For using it. What does it say? Like you can have it, but you cannot use it? Yes.

And if they do, you know, the actual rules, laws, like if somebody.

How much they are reinforcing, how much they are watching or people watch themselves or how does it go? Like I know when people come and train with us here and they're just... You should not use it in the Netherlands. Right.

So how does training look like if you never have to use it? How do you compensate for that?

So in some ways it does make you a better trainer, for sure.

But do you think there are disadvantages to not having those tools?

Was there any opposition when they tried to make the restrictions, the bans? Yeah, they did, but... I think the... At that situation, the KMPV trainers didn't help with the style and the type of, like they're pretty hard. And I think they did not help to defend that, right? No.

Then it really doesn't look like nothing. So you do, guys... use the stick in training just as how it was before at least in most places right yeah yeah we try to do the same here for sure um when you you mentioned something about um preparing something for the helpers, some presentation. Tell me about this stuff. What are you guys doing? That's interesting stuff.

Yeah, it's unfortunate. Yeah.

In the States, they try all the time. But I don't know, somehow we have... from different like pet trainers, hunters, sport trainers. And we kind of, at that time we come together and we say, Hey, no, not everybody agrees with that. And, and the politicians in the beginning, they're like, oh yeah, let's make the band because it seems like everybody wants it.

But the moment they see that it's not everybody. then politicians, they want to be liked from every side. So they're like, okay, this is not something we decide yet. And that's been the case for many years now. And I think we're getting even stronger to protect how we train here. Do you feel that...

What about IGP as a whole? Do you think that's going to get banned?

Yeah, Germany is always a big factor.

That was the cool thing, what they did, Matthias with the UNESCO. That was very, very cool. I had him on my podcast last year and he already was working on it, but he didn't want to make it public on the podcast because it was still in the process. But he's like something cool. And that was big.

There will be another country, I don't know which one, but I'm sure there will be another country. I wouldn't be surprised if it's Finland or... Hopefully it will take a while. Yeah. But that's the difficult part with the sport because it's like, well, we're trying to make it so, okay, we take the tickets away, we take this away, we take this away,

Let's go to the interesting part of... You've been doing helper work now for how long and how did you get into the helper work part of the IGP?

no matter what we do, it's not going to make those people happy. They still will want to cancel it. They still, no matter what, they will want to cancel it. So my thinking is we must just enjoy and defend it as much as we can. Don't keep washing down the program to try to make them happy because they will not be happy. They will never be happy. And it's not just IGP.

I mean, they're going after agility. They're going after everybody. But IGP seems to be the big thorn in their eye. So Holland is crazy because really two years ago it seemed like you had it under control. But then as you said, it's very easy to show some bad training. And the bad thing is that bad training didn't stop, did it? No. Right? That's the problem.

It's like, well, we're making a ban just to feel good. But it didn't help. But we don't change anything. And the only way I would think you can change it is if you go after individual person that does something bad instead of saying everybody cannot do that.

Yeah, improving the techniques and learning how to do better.

Tough one.

so right now if I fly to Netherlands and I have electric collar in my suitcase that's no problem but if I walk in Amsterdam with electric collar on my dog that's not allowed that's not a good thing no and you think some cop or somebody will stop me yes yeah

very crazy that's life now these days yeah and unfortunately as you say probably irreversible which is i don't know we are working here very hard making even different studies and showing different things and really really standing our ground and there is enough evidence but But nobody's using it. Yeah.

Right. Is the German Shepherd Club bigger than anything else? Kind of like everybody?

How big do you think the Malinois community? It's not so big. Not big, right? We're not here either.

Oh, wow.

What about the Belgians? Do you...

As I was saying, it's so crazy when people come to train here from Europe and even they are just so afraid and so that even here they kind of look around and it's like, oh, somebody taking a picture or, you know. And we are completely the opposite. We're just like, which can create a big problem for somebody like me going in Europe and not just not thinking at the moment.

Because I would put a prong collar and I will take my dog to town. Just, you know, just very normal. And it is, you know.

um uh what is their method for for qualification and yeah it's very different from clubs to clubs so like uh like let's say the the competition that's coming the old breeds in may They basically select, they announce, and then helpers that want to try, they send their resume.

And then there is a committee, a team that looks over, and hopefully they have the knowledge to decide, well, these few helpers are good. So that's one way to do it. the usci the biggest the german shepherd club they have a very serious program as far as selecting helpers and just because they have a lot of numbers they have they have a good number of good helpers always for competition

And it's more towards competition training, more competition stuff, right?

In the Malinois, we've been trying for quite some time. In the last few years, there was a big push to have, you know, like we have a helper committee and helper program. But for some reason, the club just had so many problems. It's... sad because again, we're like 300 people and we cannot agree on who's going to lead and where we're going.

So even though there is an idea and there is good people standing behind the program with the helpers, it's overshadowed by all the problems organizations having and that's bad i'm sure one day it's gonna take off because they are again there are few of the people that are in the helper committee and there is the knowledge is there and the people that want to is there it's just that

Yeah, the club itself is going through a lot of struggle and 300 people and we can get along, which is normal, but we don't need to get along. We just need to follow rules.

Yeah, right now, it's it's very polarized. And it's like everybody's against, like, it's like five people against these five people against these five people. And it's like, we need to reset, we need to like this, this cannot go on. It's not good for nobody. But I mean, that's the idea. I think we will get there. As long as there are still competitions. That's the thing.

Like, I wouldn't be surprised if all of a sudden, as you said, Germany, out of nowhere, some political decision comes, and next thing you know, there is no more world championships. On the other hand, this might not be a bad thing, because that probably is the only answer and the only reason that the sport people will get forced to start a different organization that is not FCI related.

But as long as there is FCI, I don't think even though everybody complains, um, it's not easy to start the organization like this. It takes a lot. And yeah, it's a, it's a company. Yeah. So, yeah. Well, We take some good rest. It's been... It's kind of hot now, Florida. It's different. Different from being in the Netherlands. Yeah, true. What do you think when you come here? How is it...

I think it's more expensive on top of everything else, but it's just more expensive to do the sport here because everything is so far apart. Just to travel, to go to somewhere to track, for example, or to go to a helper that has decent knowledge that you know that it can really help you.

sometimes people drive man i mean two hours is nothing two hours is super easy and two hours you'll be in belgium or or france if you want to yeah you know but yeah we don't have to pay for helpers as well right right so at the club

Do you try to make them... like I from different helper seminars and camps and stuff especially when it comes to competition helper very often the instructions are kind of very rigid, like everybody, it's almost like in the army, like a soldier, like you take three steps like this and then really trying to make every person look almost the same instead of...

Do you still have enough tracking? I know in Belgium, I remember back when I lived there, there was so much. And now, I think there is just houses. I remember there was separation from one little town to another town. Now it's just... It's packed. There is no... Yeah. How is it in the Netherlands?

We still... Yeah. And the farmers, do you have... People have to... Like here, if we go trucking, we have to make sure that you're in good terms with the farmers because they will I mean, they have guns, they're not joking around. It's like, what are you doing on my field? What is this? What are you putting on my field here? Yeah.

And with the club that you have, do you guys pay rent or is it somebody's place?

And it's like the community?

But but who like the club owns the place or not owns the place lease rent. Yeah.

Yes. Right. Yeah. I don't know what is in English, but that's kind of like some some local government. Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's cool that they like here is problems. This is that's why we all pretty much everybody's training on private property. And it's kind of cool that way, too, when it's possible. But like you cannot convince like Hillsborough County to have a dog training field. That is just not going to happen.

It's all, um, anything, but that, that just, I, and again, it goes back to tradition. There is no, like, they will just look at you like talk training club. Like what are you going to do? Cool, man. I'm looking forward to the next two days because this is going to be me too. It's the last stretch for getting ready for the competitions. And, um, yeah. Thank you for doing this. You're welcome.

We go back to training. All right, guys.

teaching them how to be there themselves and use the quality. Like if you are a smaller guy versus big guy, how to use your advantages. What do you guys do with that?

Have a little freedom, right?

And how was English? How was that?

In Honduras, the first six years. Oh, you're lucky. Yeah, yeah.

Caption subtitles, it's like priceless. Like when I... I know, like, I'm convinced that it's the reason why, like, for example, like, take Belgium. Belgium has, like, and I lived there, and I, you know, when I moved from Bulgaria, that's where I moved to. And I was, like, convinced I'm going to learn the language, and not French, but the Flemish.

And it's not, it's just like this very strange mixture of some kind of strange Germans, like anyway. And I was putting a lot of time, but what always was like, how come the Flemish people speak more English than the French part?

and it was at least my thinking as simple as the movies and everything in the french part was voiced over and in the other one you hear the english and you read the dutch and so when you like and then i kind of looked into most countries that you know somehow they they are more comfortable with English, they all had like all the movies, everything was always with subtitles.

So they hear it and they read it. And it's like when you have the voiceover, you never hear the actual, you know, and it starts with some funny phrase or something. And then next thing you know, you're getting more and more in it.

It does.

similar things and and not relying on welfare and stuff like that you know just doing our own thing so how uh where are you from let's start there yeah uh so i was born and raised in honduras um i i was raised in tegucigalpa that's like the capital of the country and um

it was the VHS tapes and we would get, I mean, there was the communism. I mean, there was like that wall that separated East and West was a real thing. Like it was really separated. Any movie that would come from the States or whatever, it would be probably like the fifth copy on VHS tape, which is like extremely poor quality.

And then it's translated probably from English to Italian, from Italian to German. And then we had this one guy that he was also, the way I know him is from dog training because he was also kind of crazy like me. We were training dogs together.

but he was the guy in the whole country that would voice over all the cool movies from german because he he was very good in german yeah and some that's kind of how he he had uh from east german back then it was like a real east german german shepherds you know and So I'm in the... And we're training in the park. I mean, there is no clubs.

We're training in the park and I see them and I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm going to go and watch. I didn't even have a dog. And I hear him talk and I'm like, man, this is like really weird. I just cannot... I know this voice so well and I cannot figure it out. And finally I'm like...

oh my god that's that's the guy that the whole country knows you know it was so funny um but yeah anyway uh these are cool things yeah and and so you decided to go to how long uh um how long before you went to school again

How interesting.

That's what we have to do. That's kind of like sometimes with the dog training, like police departments or something, it's like, no, this is how we have to do it because that's what the structure of everything is.

And so how you did work in the field as like in the veterinary field, right?

Right, it's kind of humid and stuff, right?

This is cool though. You know, these are, these are like, I mean, sometimes we don't think how it can. Somebody that actually you do something good and it gets appreciated and recognize how much it can influence in the future. You know, like, like saying thank you to somebody, it goes so far. And we kind of sometimes it's like, okay, yeah, but what does it matter?

And it does matter so much, right? It created an addiction with me.

So is it like a rainforest-y kind of stuff?

Well, I wasn't a vet tech yet. I mean, back then, you know, you would have five of them. Let's jump in. We are examining him. He has no choice.

The butterfly effect. Yeah, yeah. Takes you on a different place.

And right away, the question, what's the dog scenery, the dog world? What's around?

The consequences, the chicken or the egg, right? Yeah, I don't know. I don't know exactly what happened, but that happened a few times, and I'm glad that... But what is interesting is that even now you're still analyzing, going back to these things. I do too. Man, I have some really kind of scary stories that I probably not just beaten, I probably would have been torn up like in pieces.

I know one story that I have, Cause I, I, one of my obsession is this mountain sheep guard dogs, you know, like the, yeah. Like this is like, I'm like, I never miss it. If I have a choice and opportunity, I never miss it. Um, so I don't know, young, like really maybe. let's say eight, nine years old, few of us. Back in the time, it was just kids playing in the streets. That's what you do.

And we were up in the mountains and we see the sheep. And when you see the sheep, you know that the dogs are somewhere. So let's go with the dogs. It's like, okay, let's go with the dogs. Well, but we know that there can be dangerous and big. So we get these sticks, like we're playing tough, like four or five of us. And kind of feeding from each other. Nobody wants to say, no, let's go back home.

It's like, no, no, they're going, I'm going. And of course, like we get to the right distance and the dogs catch us, they see us and they start coming. And it's like, I don't know how many, but they're coming. And it's not like they're running. They have this kind of, kind of like that trot, like they're just coming, you know?

No, it was nothing in the beginning. We're kind of excited. Oh yeah, the dogs. And then they're coming and coming. And at some point we freak out because you realize like how tall I was and how big these dogs were. I mean, we were like this, you know, like, I'm like, this is not good. Like we just realized it's not good. And

We climb in those like the high voltage poles, you know, that are like, you know, like this whole thing that you can climb easy. Man, we stayed there for like five, six hours. There is no cell phone. There is nobody knows. We're just stuck there. And the dogs, they're, again, they're guard dogs. So they don't like, they just lay down on the bottom. And we're stuck there. And for a moment...

Very, very funny story, but scary. Like, you know, like we really could have been just... Could have mauled, yeah. Oh, my God. But in the beginning, we're like, oh, yeah, we're happy, we're cool, because I'm thinking, oh, I can stay three days here. And all of a sudden, you start to realize, because they're like these V-shaped medals, and they're not easy to stand.

So you're kind of adjusting, adjusting. But after a few hours, you're starting to be like, I don't know if I can stay anymore. No.

Yeah. They just, I mean, they, the ships are around and whatever. And finally the shepherd is trying to call them and they're not coming. So. He comes and he's all angry and he's swearing and cussing at us, not the dogs. Oh my God. What are you kids doing? Like you crazy. Wow. But yeah, I mean, like one bite probably. Okay. But that would, that would, could have been really over like game over.

And, but the crazy thing I never. like nothing changed the obsession is still there very very crazy stuff that is the mountain dogs like these are like in in especially in this part of the world are very very very cool like even now i get locked sometimes on watching there is one right now that i'm kind of following on youtube 70-year-old woman alone.

She has, I mean, all of it, like the sheep, the cattle, everything. And she has the guard dogs. And every once in a while, I don't know who, but it's somewhere in, goes and interviews her. And so they make these little episodes with her. And a lot of times she talks about just daily life and what she makes for food and whatever. But the times when she starts talking about the dogs,

It's insanely cool. I mean, it's just like talking about this old woman talking dogs, like selection. Well, she doesn't think of it as training, but it's like training.

we don't dare anymore because it's well you don't know learning theory or you don't know the quadrants or yeah and it's like you um i don't know who was i talking with very recently and i mentioned this in another podcast that i just had how um Like I would give somebody a task to train a dog. Did I tell you that story? I don't know. I'm like, teach him how to go to a place, basically.

I mean, it was a little basket. And the person has no idea how to do it. The dog has no idea and I'm watching them and it's kind of painful sometimes. I'm like, there's no way this is gonna work and they're gonna get frustrated. And eventually, after four or five days, The dog goes to place. They figure it out. Just like that. Now, who figured it out? The person or the dog?

Well, that was the cool thing because it was the cooperation. Like the dog knew. They both knew that something has to be accomplished. And somehow the dog was very forgiving. And the guy that was teaching it was also very... I wouldn't say guilty, but he was like, if the dog wasn't getting it, he knew that a lot of it was because of him, not that because it's just showing him the finger. Right.

Yeah. And, and it's just like the process itself and seeing it, how it just works out eventually. It's just so cool.

So do then, then what, uh,

Right. So did you have a were there any like just stories? street dogs or street dogs. Yeah.

How much had to deal with euthanasia?

Did you have any of those... where the people will just drop it off and they cannot handle it to be with the dog.

Those are very tough, like having a dog. It's your dog. Yeah, that is. 12 years, 14 years. And I get it, you cannot handle it, but...

For sure, still a pup.

To some extent, I think everybody, like if, I mean, that would be such a cool experiment to be able to put a bunch of people that you have known. prior i mean everybody knows what dog is but not really owning a dog not having any prior like solid interaction with dogs and you know kind of how they do the what is called those tv soap opera things with the

you know, when they put them together and let's see what happens. Reality, reality, you know, like the one like this with dogs. I mean, it can go sideways. It totally would. But there will be a lot of priceless moments. I mean, it sounds like a good show. Let's put a bunch of guys and some different type of dogs. Some really shy ones.

What kind of, what is it like, um,

um so she would just let me do stuff which was super cool um it was during the bills even then but now it's like i don't know because we are so busy right now if i ever even have a chance to tell you what's happening but i mean tina she just got her second oh yeah uh acl surgery like four grand yeah yeah i mean close to yeah thankfully

we know people that know people but that's like you know like when when i see the bill and it's like oh my god oh yeah oh my i mean how and then a dog comes um kind of training corny and he has this happy tail thing like you saw her right yeah So I'm like, OK, this is a whole nother thing. Let's I mean, maybe maybe some a shot, whatever cortisone, some steroid, maybe kind of suited.

But I'm thinking, OK, that's going to end up being another at least fifteen hundred if we need to amputate. Oh, yeah. And. Then today I have Melody take ice because he something neurological. He's starting to get like kind of walking like he's drunk something. I'm like, oh man, what's happening? So we take and we did like already two different.

So today was a third vet, like from one specialist to another. Because something kind of, well, we don't know, but it's suspiciously something neurological. Well, my latest estimate that just came, it starts from 5,500 and it can go to 8,500. Oh yeah, the MRI? Right. Oh, wow. And we still wouldn't know.

Talking about the insanity and I don't know what's even now, you say you don't go often in Honduras, but I know if I take them to anywhere in Europe, forget about this, then Europe will be dirty cheap and still high quality everything. But anywhere in Europe, like the prices that we have here for vet bills, it's like off the charts. Like it's wrong. Like I don't know how they justify this.

partner in crime with both train monitoring and we just have the kind of lucky that we got to do this in person instead of Zoom calls. It's always better to do it this way. I so wish that I can say the real reason why you're here but you guys need to hold off on that um we we're in the middle of a very very cool project and unfortunately can't share it but i promise you the world's gonna know

But there is so much work, so much pets, you know, like you. I don't know. It's.

Eight thousand. Who? I mean, okay, I will pay. Like, if I have no choice, what am I going to do? Not pay the $8,000? But how wrong is that? Like, I just, like, come on, people.

Yeah, I think that's kind of... I guess that's the game now. You have to have the insurance costs to justify somehow. And it does work, as you say, like in some cases. I have it for some dogs, but I am not like Natalia. She's all good. She does all that. I'm like, if it happens, I'll deal with it. And here I am now. You're complaining about it. Oh, my God.

So did you ever thought of like really going up the ladder as far as like the vet stuff?

And so you were really seriously on the path.

Yeah. And, and I mean, before you, you tell that story, like when I, I was going to be, when I said, I'm going to be a dog trainer, um, My parents, they're like, yeah, whatever. I mean, yeah, sure, be, go. Thinking like, there is no such thing as dog training. Like you tell anybody at that time in Europe that you will make money to be a dog trainer, it's like, what are you going to actually do?

Even, I mean, up to like very recently, maybe... I don't know, not that very recent, but my parents would be like, when are you gonna get a real job? Like you're getting old, like you need to settle. I'm like, mom, I am paying everything for both of you.

from being a dog trainer, like, shut up, like, just accept, they could not accept it, like, they just could not accept it, but that was that European, I mean, yeah, this changed probably in the last 10 years, probably, and even now, it's not how it's in the States, you know, like, that's, I guess, we're blessed here that that's a different way of Like, yeah, I remember.

I mean, I would be talking on the phone with them and they're like, so how is everything? You should start looking for a job. Like, Jesus Christ. Like, come on.

And so then what you started, you decided to just open a business or, or I started, I started, um, I mean, that's a huge, that's, that's how scary was that?

But it's crazy how it works. Either something have to really disrupt the path that you were thinking that you were going on to force you to change or you really have to be so like just committed and believing that that is the path to where you go all in. Because there's so many people in that kind of crack the door open. Okay, I'm going to be a dog trainer and very quickly get scared.

And I mean, for many different reasons, I guess, you know, it's kind of... On the surface, it looks like, oh, yeah, anybody. If you have a dog, I'm now a dog trainer. But to really become a dog trainer, there's a lot of things. And that's another thing for Europe, when people are, and I know I have so many European friends, it just sounds so bad like this, but it's true, at least I think.

they would rather have a very solid average job to some big company being Porsche or Bosch or whatever, you know? And they start there and they're going to get the pension there and it's okay. And the fear of trying and failing, it's incredibly powerful in there. To work here, it's almost like if you don't try and you haven't failed, what are you doing? What's your life?

You should be experimenting. You should be trying something, right?

But that's the thing. Is it safer, really? Not for your soul. It's very crazy. I know when you work for yourself and you get a phone call, I want my dog trained. chances are 99.999% that you will say, of course, no matter how busy you are. Like no matter what, you're, yes. And then I'm going to figure it out how it's going to happen.

But saying no to a client when you work for yourself, it's not easy. At least for me, it never was.

So let's let's go backwards. Let's start from where you are right now, because you have a really solid business going right now and you just expand it. And let's go back and

And that's kind of your people skills probably, you know, because having to have 20 something people to work for you, that's also... It's tough.

when eventually, you know, like, people started to want to hear me, what I have to say about dog training. And it became progressively, like very quickly, to where I had to speak in front of people. And that was not, like that was not me.

really oh my god that was yeah it sounds it it's crazy it's great to hear it because you're so comfortable so confident in everything i am and and i tell you there was a and i just listened to this uh or watched that it was a podcast with uh tony robbins and jordan peterson he just came out very cool very very very very cool one like highly recommended yeah and

I don't know who was talking to whatever, but there was a moment because they are both like very gifted and like so many areas, but like speaking specially. And one of them was like, the moment you stop looking at the crowd as one unit, but you actually look and see people and you talk to the people. And I was like, fuck, that's exactly what happened.

That's like, I've never really put it in the words this way, but that's exactly how it changed for me, like overnight. Wow. Because, you know, it's like this stage fright, like you just see...

But there are things that we need to learn. We are always good at something. And then who knows? Primax principle, right? Sometimes maybe the one that we're not, or at least we didn't think we're good at, maybe it becomes even... you get better at it. Yeah.

Yeah.

so yeah no literature language yeah language is like yeah even so just watching what's happening with the ais right now and oh yeah it's all just language and language is not just like the i mean anything is basically language okay i'm not gonna go there this took too crazy even for everybody right now but So how did you start it? You got the business.

You started by, okay, I'm soldier of one, army of one. And ended up going to clients or they bring dogs. You had like, did you have a garage with crates or no?

Were you like, were you having questions like, oh, should, would I be able to make this happen?

Trusted yourself.

That's like, I mean, if that was not the case, I don't think it would be like the whole evolution and the interest to keep progressing would not be there. That's true. I mean, that's a given. Like some people... take it too hard. And I understand that, you know, it's a bumpy road and doesn't have to be but yeah, yeah.

But so then, my guess is that the next big hump is the guts to hire a second trainer. Oh, yeah, that was a tough one. Like, I can imagine how that goes.

1100 damn i wish i i was forced alone forever that was good i was lucky i've been when i look back pretty much everybody that i like all of my really true good friends they were not dog people and we just accepted each other for who we are yeah i mean to them was super interesting the whole dog thing yeah but

there was a line in the sand that they were like, okay, now Ivan has to go and walk the dogs or whatever.

I have this too. Yeah. I know this...

And then there's the whole thing of learning how to pay somebody and how to deal with actual... It's not you.

Yeah, this is where the excitement can override

Oh, that's like a given. Yeah. It's like as long as you care about what you do. the hardest thing probably is to delegate eventually. It's just a nightmare.

Was it always worth them out?

That's the beautiful thing about dog trainer. Especially, I mean, you have to, I don't know. I was going to say you have to be good at it, but then there's so many that are not and still somehow pull it through. But being a dog trainer, you're out and about. And then you have your clients, but then you're out with the dogs. And it's like...

The dog owners actually recognize that genuinity.

How was COVID? Was that scary?

Did you shut down? We closed down for three months.

Hold on, is that when you came to the school or no?

The sun is out.

It was absolutely the best place on earth. Maybe besides Sweden or something. But, like, no, we were... I mean, we freaked out for a moment, just like everybody else. I'm, like, going to the grocery store, coming back home, and I'm washing vegetables with soap. I'm like, this is not going to work. And this cannot last. Like, this can... I mean, we will be dead. I'm not washing every bathroom.

This is ridiculous. And then little by little, I mean, very quickly, like, you know, and I'm sure there was some risk to it, but Florida was by far the place to be. I mean, by far, like we, and especially, you know, having the space and the doors, so we really didn't, I mean, besides going out and wearing a mask, the planes, the planes was the most ridiculous thing, man.

It's like, okay, now you guys eat. Take the mask, you eat. Okay, now put the mask. What the fuck are we doing? Like, how retarded we can be, all of us, collectively. Like, what are we doing? That is exactly what happened.

It's just really, really a nightmare. And I mean, man, like how many people... died and couldn't even say goodbye to their relatives because like through glasses and fucking like just bad, bad, bad times. Like we're, we are living into, I mean, having COVID, having the whole AI revolution. I mean, having just the internet period, like we're in this turn, like what we are experiencing, it's crazy.

It's crazy in so many ways.

And then TWC somehow came along. By the way, I'll tell you just a quick one with COVID because of the TWC. So we were going to have the first class and we're starting and we actually will have it here, you know. and restrictions are coming. Just talking about coming, right? There is this guy, his name's Bart from Belgium. I just saw him in UK, he's gonna come for the helper workshop.

Yeah, because he needed somebody at the time. I guess so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Something like that. It's got to be something like that. Yeah, yeah. Wow, funny one. What about other, like, what do you have in Honduras as far as wildlife? Something predators, like, what do you guys have?

He flies, he's like, I'm doing this. I'm gonna come here before they lock it. So he comes here and now they're talking really lockdowns and now he's like, But I also have to get back. And now he's got to work it out how to get back. I mean, it was this craziness, like absolutely craziness.

I mean, I have so many, like especially my daughter, she's German, American, German, whatever. I mean, like in Germany, they had to have like three, four, five shots. Like you cannot, like in Germany, you cannot not have them. Like you just cannot, you know, and being 19 years old, having five shots, a girl like, oh man. But anyway, so.

You're renting it, right?

But I think right now from what I'm just kind of following real estate stuff, right now seems to be a good time.

It's just negative reinforcement. Yeah, I guess so. Starting with the verse first, right? Correct, correct. That's what you mean, yeah.

Yeah.

So it's not foreign.

Yeah, it's interesting. Like, I know, and I mean, I'm not selling, but it, like... dogs eyes change like they just there is a moment when they're like hey yeah and there is this like even even in an old dog this kind of friendly playful like hey And you see it right away.

Yeah, because as a trainer, so easy to be. I am looking down on you and you are doing things for me. And yes, I love you. And yes, you eat. But yeah. Yeah. How did... the dog sport come? Like how did the whole Monday or whatever? Where did that come in?

Got to tell that story.

yeah when i was buying the place and the woman i got it from she was like there is a um what do you call them now here in in florida mountain lion yeah yeah the cougars or the but uh like i don't know what what is it puma um see now we control the names panther or it must be it's a panther yeah yeah it is a panther and it's like oh yeah there is one kind of

You know what is crazy? And you're, you're, you're been in the vet industry, but like what always kind of amazes me that. you know they're in pain when they get this, you know, lumps in their body. Like, you know there's got to be pain. But somehow they are so contained and, like, act like it's not. But you know it's there. It's amazing how they make this. It is.

Is it, like, just nature that they're not...

They just want to nail you anyway. You don't know why. It's like, no, I'm already looking at you. You're just attributed to them being a cat. I remember when I was working at SPCA in San Francisco, and we also had to take cats. I mean, we had a whole cat section, you know? Yeah. It was way more challenging than the dogs.

It's just like you see them and you see the pupils are kind of, you know, and you're like, okay, are you just want to like, and I was master with, you know, like you would have the gloves and stuff, but nothing like I was the best with the towel. Just give me a towel.

They're different.

And when they don't want to just kind of bite to get away, but they want to like stay with you. Oh yeah. Oh, wouldn't they grab you with a kick? Right, right. Oh, yeah.

So kind of like with the dog business, I mean, very steady, progressively getting your feet in. Yeah, yeah, that's kind of how it's been. So what do you like in Mondio? What is, like, the...

what do i like in monday like what what is the you know what excite what challenging what what is the the thing that you you catch yourself thinking about often yeah so at the beginning it was definitely you know how do i train this you know and a lot of it was

checking the kennels all the time but very friendly so don't not like it's been around I never saw it but I know the woman was serious and it was like years that I always would kind of hope you know that it would be something there I almost thought at one point to put the you know the hunter camera stuff and recently my neighbor he because it's like all you know it's all swamps and kind of wild behind me

Because it's so many things.

What do you see as far as how does the sport and the pet world... help each other if they do.

Yeah. yeah i have a i mean i've kind of went the same like eventually you know like at twc i how how highly i recommend that even if if you're a professional trainer and you're not exposed to sport training like you are missing out yeah like you have no idea how much you're missing out and

One of the things, and again, I know you've heard me talk about this, but I think it's good to keep saying it, is that when you train, let's say you have a dog that you're training for competition. That means you're training that dog. Let's say you started training whatever young age you pick, eight weeks, three months, whatever. But now the dog is five years old and you're still training.

even though you may be competing, you're still training. And when you realize how much time in training is invested and how much change has happened and where you are with that dog just because of that time, and then you take that little snippet of being a week or two weeks or three weeks of pet training, anything like, what are we doing?

And at the same time, of course, you know, some things have to be done. But that's not really the end of, like going to a basic training. It's just, you just open the door of what can happen, you know?

Thank God. So he put some cameras and he sent me a bunch of pictures and they were like a family of like bobcats. But when you don't know the size, you kind of are like, whoa, I almost got too excited. But yeah, I mean... They are somewhere. Yeah. They gotta be.

It's so hard for people to get this. It is.

At best, it's your starter. Correct. That is exactly what I'm talking about. At best.

When was the last time you've taken... a peek at the PetSmart. I haven't looked at them. I used to. I used to kind of go at PetSmart and just be like really like look like this to see. I haven't done it in very long time, but I wonder if they've changed anything.

Yeah, they have a book that says week one, everybody lined up and we are giving click and treat.

I'm going to go. Sign up and go. There is always a dog to take to PetSmart and Lowe's or whatever, right? Yeah. I have to go and check them out. Typically, man, I wonder if they even have it and maybe they don't have it anymore at our local PetSmart because it should draw my attention.

And did you, what about like any more kind of structured dog training back then? What were, were anybody doing anything? Did you know?

Because I see like they're grooming, you know, how the open glass and everything, which is cool to have like that instead of let me take your dog inside. It's like, man. Yeah. I mean, they can be the best groomers, but that whole idea of let me take him inside. And sometimes, of course, the dogs act way better when they're not clinched in like looking at, but I don't know.

A German Shepherd would, you know, act better. Yeah, kind of like the white one. He would be the one to take. Yeah, you take him away from the parents right away. Yeah, yeah. What about the, how are you navigating the whole landscape with the force-free and like your clients when some, I mean, I typically, at least for us, it's very standard. It's like... what tools are you using?

I'm like, oh, here we go. Okay, we're going to have that conversation. How is it up there?

Well, that's probably what it is.

And that's the best.

You know, like we had, I think it was about five years now, there was a very sneaky push here in... I mean, the hearings were in Tampa. I don't know if it was the whole Florida or was it just like Hillsborough County, but they were pushing to ban electric colors, prong colors, the whole thing. And the trainers, you know, kind of got together and we went to the hearings and we stopped it.

I mean, it was easy to stop because, you know, the moment the politicians see that not everybody is in agreement and there is actually... equal amount of people in disagreement. They don't want to take, that's like the worst thing for politicians to take side in that kind of war.

So they decided, it was interesting, it was actually very cool and it's worth it to, I always think to do something about this, but what they decided to do was somehow in the conversation came that the trainers like me are not open with their clients. And so I would do something that the client doesn't know. And what if they don't agree with that? Yeah. So

every company every pet training company in at least in hillsborough and i believe it was most of florida he had to have training plans and if there was change in the training plan and there is it signed with by the client yes i am fine to use uh whatever with my dog or i am not And then if we need to update it two weeks from now, then we do. But those got collected. Oh, wow.

And I think they got collected like for at least a year and a half we were doing this. Wow. That's a lot of work. Yes. And of course, there is nobody to go through this. Who's going to do that? Well, that's the work that I'm talking about. It's just kind of let's wash our hands. We're doing something very good. It's like, but...

there is a database collected sitting there that there's like so many different pet businesses and so many tools used. What's the ratio? What's the abuse? How many? Like you can just, especially now with the AI abilities, you can just like instantly. So I'm, Everyone, like right now, I get excited. I'm like thinking I'm going to go and see if I can get the data, you know?

Now, of course, tomorrow, the project that we have here takes over and it's not going to happen. But that was an interesting time. And in some ways, that's pretty much how you would do it if you are...

legit business you know like oh i'm gonna do this and then you just start doing shit to the dog that like that's just not right like how why you know um but uh how like like another question that i always ask especially people that professional trainers How much resistance or how much conversation has to take place on average to convince somebody that might be a good thing to try with their dog?

Exactly. This is kind of like when you, somebody, family members dying out of cancer and, and they will do any voodoo shit that comes across and why, and it's totally okay at that point.

and if they've already given up or they still have that hope that right it's there is a lot of factors yeah yeah like in for me um it's super this is kind of interesting always this specific conversation we're having at the moment um

Like, I promise you. So, yeah, we've been, how many days now? Three, four days? Four days, I think. Four days. And it was so cold. I don't know. Right now, you're with the T-shirt. I had to put this on because I'm like, man, it's just kind of cold. But it's been insane, the weather, too. But it's really, really good to sit down and talk dogs and so on.

There are times when I know, and these are the times that it's just very difficult for me because I know that I can, this is not even, this is like not even complicated. This is like very simple, straightforward. We can take care of this, but you're not allowing me. And I... I'm looking at the dog, it's going to walk away, and I know where it's going to go. And so I always have this last resort.

I mean, that has not happened, like probably a handful at best. But I would be like... how about you just give me five minutes with the dog and you're right here you can just terminate it the moment you say done we're done like it doesn't need like the moment you start to feel that things are going not that we're it's done and every single time it's been like oh okay like oh and

I definitely don't want to say that it's justified in any case and use it in any way you want to, because it can be wrong, of course. But the information that the social media is flooded with, it's just so misguided, so misleading. It's very hard to be a pet owner and having a difficult dog to... you don't know.

So you're listening to a bunch of totally contradicting, you know, it's like, how do you make a decision when you don't know? And what do you think about regulations now that we are there?

Who decides?

maybe there is a system at some point but that's you know i i'm with you like i i personally don't see it yeah i mean i for a moment like for a very brief moment i was like maybe maybe that is the way and then it's very easy to convince myself no no no no i i think uh also regulations once they're set They're not easy to, they're not malleable. They're just there to stay.

And if anything, they continue to go in one direction that somehow gets pushed.

That means revolution. Yeah. That means like, you know, revolution.

Especially when there's not already a good system to... Like even now, I know that some of the European countries are becoming aware that they just really went way too far. But here they are. What are you going to do? Who's going to be the one that everybody is going to point the finger at to try to... make a sensible change in those restrictions that they have. I don't know.

I mean, you think of, we just briefly touched on this, like take any, you know, a police department or some military, you know, like some canine units or whatever, where there is like very serious structure, even though probably... Everybody knows that things can be done a little different now. It's just very difficult to add a sentence in the book, the manual, you know?

This is just like not easy.

There's few people in the police kind of world right now, man. Just painful to watch. It's painful to watch. And every once in a while, I'm like, man, I should at least talk just for my listeners about it. But then I'm like, I don't know. It's this thing of like, it should be said, but then, you know, it's like, it's not my monkey, it's not my circus kind of thing. But in a way it is.

and difficult one i just like i i have i i used to watch few just for entertain like pure entertainment and we would have dinner or just drink or something and and i'll be watching and narrating and natalia just having a blast just listening to um But then at some point, I was like, you know what, that's just not good for my head. I stopped. It's just not cool.

But, you know, talking about regulations, but then there is really... There is kind of bad training in terms of like kind of psychopaths, just people that are just not good people. They just don't have a heart to interact with animals, you know? And then there is others that just have no skill to be a dog trainer. but are competing to be the influencer of the month or

So, yeah, I know I'm producing bullshit, but I'm going to keep doing it because I'm getting the algorithms.

And then you have the new people that are trying and how in the world somebody that wants to start right now dog training and you see some with, I don't know, X number of followers and likes and daily flooding your Instagram or whatever.

And then there is something else and how do you decide where to go if you don't know, you know, like I'm thinking when I was, you know, like somebody starting to do martial arts, it's so easy. So, oh yeah, you can do Tai Chi and you're going to fucking destroy everybody. It's like, no, you are not like nothing wrong about Tai Chi, but you are not going to kill people. Um,

I don't know, it's interesting stuff.

And then if the person is a talker and a catcher.

Man, we have a few more days to go. And the weather's now warming up. When we started, it was like, what, like 32, 33 degrees.

That's a good one.

And the dogs are like... Oh yeah. You know, don't suffer with this kind of changes. I mean, it's not that it's not hot by no means. We're talking 65 or something, but from 33 to next day, 65, we got to 74. Did we?

Yeah. That's already. Yeah.

But this is good. It's going to be very, very exciting. You guys are going to know about it. Trust me. Everybody will know about it. And it's a good thing. We'll see what happens, but Javier, I think this was very cool. Yeah, it was a pleasure. I totally enjoyed it. You have definitely a very inspirational story for anybody that's just dwelling. It's like, oh, yeah, one day I'm going to whatever.

I mean, from where it went and how you made it. Yeah. It's awesome. Are you going to come for the Mondial trial? I have not.

No. I have to find the time now because now it's really coming up. I have to. Like I was really going strong. It's two weeks. Shit. Shit. and then we went to england well let's train tomorrow and yeah we have to like we have to do some training yeah just at least something because i'm starting to kind of be like oh maybe yeah man england was so cool there was a

And at some point we almost take it for granted, you know? Of course a dog is happy, plays ball. Of course it does, right? And now look at how we, as a dog trainer, how tough it can be to convince a dog to play, right?

There was like one really funny story. Because, you know, I mean, the British English is different. So I know I have to be a little more careful to listen. But then... you have somebody from Scotland asking a question. And I'm like, repeat it again and again. And then I'm like, sorry, it's got to be my English. And he's like, yeah, maybe your English and my Scottish is definitely not coming.

But it was cool. It was a very, very good one.

No, no. Okay, you figured it out. No, but, you know, eventually you kind of... Just in a context, you start to get, like... No, Scottish is a... I mean, I don't think I've ever heard it before, so... So it's like, it's English, but you're not understanding. You know, it's like English, but you're like...

I'm like, no, repeat it one more time because I didn't, and I'm convinced that it's, I don't get it, you know? But it was cool.

Depends. Like for me, they were very easy, like really like kind of instant things. But for the people that had the dogs, you know, some of the dogs had the problems for...

year or more or whatever you know did you attract more like sports trainers or were there like i think it was kind of half and half what was very cool and and maybe because i just haven't done anything in so long anywhere outside my own groups here so i mean there were There were even, I mean, there were few people that came from the States that are TWC graduates.

There were people from Canada, Malta, Belgium, Holland, like there was like, it was cool. It was cool. And we had very nice conversations afterwards. It was a good, like, in some ways I miss it, but it's not easy to do those kind of things from home. all the things that I have to do, you know? But once in a while, it's okay to get out and excite people, you know? What are you planning to do?

There is a different way to think about things. And the good thing is when you see people getting kind of excited again it's like oh yeah it's almost like it's a new thing a new idea and it lights you up um do you think you'll do it as a yearly thing no i don't i really i don't know i don't know um again like if i have time i love going places um but

But there is so many projects, like we have now a bunch of videos that I really want to get out.

But yeah, man, let's close that one. And thank you. Thank you for this. It's a pleasure. Tomorrow, I think they said we start early. Eight, I think. I mean, early, 8 o'clock instead of 9 or whatever. Yep. All right. That's it, people. Thank you. To the next time.

Yeah. And then the weekend they would go back. Cause you get your, your clothes and everything. Yeah. You got everything, food and everything.

And then what happens? How does United States come in the picture?

Yeah, because that's kind of how in Bulgaria it was within the agriculture.

So you were good at school then to some level. Like I was, I was very bad at school. I just didn't see any purpose to, I'm like, why, why do I need to know when was that revolution or that king died or like, there's just nothing made sense to me. Yeah, no.

Again, Javier, I'll let you kind of tell me a little bit in your own pace anything that you want to share because I know I'm going to stop you and ask you things because you do have a very interesting story. We kind of overlap in many ways, you know, coming from different countries and really, you know, doing...

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's all about the interest and focus. And yeah.

Kind of like how everybody was laughing at Tom Cruise in 2005, right? When he was on that interview, it was like, there is no chemical deficiency. And everybody was like, oh, that Scientology guy, right? Yeah, he's completely right. Right. Yeah. So that's just a very difficult situation to get out of.

But then let me, so if, and I don't know if that's even correct, but if depression, like in humans, let's talk about, so we don't talk about aggression in dogs, but depression in humans isn't caused by low serotonin. Do we, what are the SSRIs actually doing to people? Yeah.

It was repeated in ads, in doctor's offices, in textbooks, in everyday language. But the science just doesn't support it. The most comprehensive and very current review to date by Dr. Joanna Moncliffe and her team looked at every major area of serotonin research and found no consistent evidence that low serotonin causes depression.

Yeah. And that's where it goes.

Right. That's kind of like the, you know, how you mentioned, I mean, Freud's idea. And there was this one, again, like 2024 study that was really cool. I mean, just the title itself was amazing. Like, what was it? Like depression, difficult lives explain depression better than broken brains or something, right? Yeah.

But we are very quick to, it's like when you go to a doctor office and when you go to the psychiatrist, you're almost very open to just prescribe me the pill, fix me with the pill, right? It is.

In fact, the only reliable pattern was that long-term antidepressant use might actually lower serotonin and not restore it. So if this theory doesn't hold in humans, Why is it being used to justify prescribing psychotropic drugs in dogs? Here in the States, we have a culture that celebrates dogs having behavior problems.

Dig a little deeper in those two studies. They're based on the owner saying how my dog feels after.

And we're also told for as long as I remember that they're safe and effective. This has been like one of the major slogans. Like, don't worry, just we will play with the dose or we can switch to a different medication. But ultimately, we know what we're doing. and it will be safe, you will be okay.

But as you mentioned all this, there is incredible side effects, and at least in the dog training arena, when I try to work with a very difficult problem dog that's been already for three years, I mean, dog's life is...

15 years max let's say three years a young dog on fluoxetine for three years gabapentin trazodone and some other cbd like just and without any outcome so finally everybody gives up and it's like let's euthanize it it's nothing's working we cannot change anything and When I look at the dog, there is just nobody. It's just this emotional blunting, like clearly, like with dog is very easy.

You can talk nicely for a second and they start wagging their tail or they show you some excitement, something, and there is nothing. And from everything that I've listened, and to you particularly, because you're one of the really specialists in the arena of tapering the meds, but with dogs, it's very difficult, and there is nobody that can really tell us how, at least yet.

The only easy thing, I guess, with the dogs is, as dangerous as it is, is that With a human, they can get close to being off of the medication and then things go very bad and they jump back in because they start to feel, as you are explaining it very well, I can actually let you explain this.

But with the dogs, the way we, you know, it took me, typically it takes me about three to four months just for the dog to start to get a little bit excited about anything. Even when you tell him, hey, don't be a bad boy, or hey, you're such a good boy, and you get the same kind of dull look from the dog, and there is nothing to work with.

And it really just prevents, in my opinion, for dog behavior modification. actual success because the dog just doesn't care. He's like, I don't care kind of attitude, which makes it very difficult to encourage or discourage any behaviors and get anywhere with it. But it was very nice how it gets so complicated, how people think Some psychiatrists argue that it's, yeah, it's not addictive.

It's very easy to, you know, leave it alone. But it's actually, that's not the case. Can you tell a little bit about how difficult it is and what happens usually, why people get back in it?

Where do I start? I've been mocked, dismissed, and told to stay in my lane. All because I question the rush to medicate dogs with SSRIs. For fear, for anxiety, aggression, OCD, leisure activity, pretty much anything can be, we should supplement at least with SSRIs. The typical response I get is, you're not a veterinary behavior specialist or you're not an educated dog trainer.

Many dogs going through some kind of behavior modification are supplemented with SSRIs. And we clearly have a serious problem. That's why I invited tonight Dr. Joseph Witt Doering. He's a board-certified psychiatrist, a former FDA medical officer, and one of the few professionals willing to expose the real story behind modern antidepressant use.

Yeah, that's what I was kind of trying to say that I don't, it's not difficult because I know of trainers that will just cold turkey kind of do it. I know that that's not correct, so I do take time. But again, I'm trying to do it on my own to some extent. I don't see... What I see is I gradually start to see the dog becoming... just reacting to normal life better.

Like even, even if there is a, let's say a sudden noise in a bush and they're like, they acknowledge it and, and they start to, you know, just have much more normal reaction to, to everything, not necessarily being happy or, or being angry, but they like the emotions are kind of coming back again.

So it's very difficult to say, um, what happens with the dog because we i mean no no way to measure and the only thing we're left no way to talk to them we're left with their body language and how they go in everyday life what they do um so from

Typically, and again, it's not everybody, some dogs are, you don't see this dramatic difference in behavior and mood, but the dogs that I work with, the really difficult dogs that end up working, coming here, they're just very flat. And, and so they're like, they're so flat.

I don't even know if that's even a good description to describe it this way, but to where you don't really see, like, if it gets worse, what more it can be besides they, they cannot just go in a corner and start crying. Um, but they just don't get excited in a good or a bad way. They're just very, it's like, okay. yeah, you're petting me, or yeah, you're telling me.

And that makes it very hard to read them. The interesting thing is that the way the medications are coming into the dog world, it's really based on the human experience in psychiatry. And it's basically kind of copied into the dog world. with the idea that it will do the same thing, but it's became such a common problem that to me the most dangerous thing right now is that,

These medications are not that they are just overly prescribed, but they are so easily prescribed by anybody. Like any, I feel that any veterinarian doctor, a dog will come to the office and the owner will say, my dog is too rambunctious and he's charging other dogs on the street and... chances are they may walk away with an SSRI prescription.

Because the, and that's, I'm speculating here, but because the animal veterinarian behaviorists, which they get some extra school, of course, and they get educated on the medication, but all the education is exactly taken from human psychiatry. And so my assumption is that if they're using it, then they can use it, and you can I mean, you can get a prescription.

Like I know that I can go to any dog veterinarian with my dog and convince them. They're very easy. And on top of that, I will go online. There is like this dog website that sell medications and stuff. And tomorrow I have it. And off we go on medication. It's really, really sad. And the sad part is that

Now, just so I'm clear, I brought Dr. Joseph on to do most of the talking here. He presents this case better than anyone I've seen, and I've been following this for the last five years quite intensively. So yeah, I'll jump here and there to draw parallels from what I see in dog training. Ask questions, of course, but Primarily, I will allow you to do the talking. Again, thank you for being here.

The majority of the dogs, and I'm talking the majority of the dogs, like I remember one of your, I don't know, was it a podcast? But you had some really good presentation at one place where you had a big circle and you put a percentage and you were talking how there is this 5% of people that really need it.

And everybody else, there is a whole other ways of alternatives and it's just harmful to do. And that's kind of where we are with the dogs.

Yeah, yeah. And even, I mean, dogs bite each other, dogs can be aggressive to each other. But because a dog is aggressive to another dog, or dogs, it doesn't necessarily mean that there is a chemical imbalance and that the SSRI will do something to resolve that problem. So the dog actually can change its perception towards other dogs.

And of course, the proponents of the medications, they will very quickly here correct me and say, well, it's not the medication only. in conjunction with some behavior modification plan. But my argument is that the behavior modification plan gets kind of stalled because you have nobody to work with because the dog just doesn't care if they do something right or wrong.

Yeah. So I just thought of something else, like with the dogs. I mean, of course, there is quite a few different ways people would do and there is different dog training camps, of course. But the way I and some dog trainers will approach problems with dogs.

I mean, the first thing you want to do is try to get close to the dog, try to make that dog like you, so you create some rapport, so you have some trust, so you can start to get somewhere. But the dog has to kind of be able at least to see it, if not actively search for it, at least to be able to recognize it.

And so we would try to get a dog to play because play is one of the, I mean, I'm sure with humans is the same thing. I mean, when you play, you show very good intention and especially when you like to play and you activate your body and the whole good chemicals start to interact in your brain. And then you present a certain situation and so on. So you have play and you have food.

You can use treats as rewards. But from what I know, And playfulness is something that kind of gets also quieted down. Loss of appetite is another side effect of... So on top of having the kind of... emotional blunting, you have a dog also that I cannot reach and say, hey dude, let's play. I have a ball. And he's like, yeah, okay, so what?

And it's almost like my hands are tied until I can go through the whole process of taking the dog off and starting to see that dog, as I said, at least starting to react to the world around it. being, wow, what is that? Woof. Or, oh, somebody's coming. Oh, it's not a friend. But you see a brain that's actively responding to the outside environment. I really don't understand why.

I mean, what would be the approach when you have this emotional blunting or motivation loss, you know, like, I don't know, how do you approach to get somebody excited to look forward to life again in that state of mind?

And if I'm missing something as far as your credential, go ahead and tell my audience. But yeah, let's get going.

Or also it can create increased irritability and, you know, it can kind of go to a different extreme as well in some cases, right?

I know you were talking recently about the mass shootings too, which is another crazy thing.

Right. Yeah. It's a very, very difficult, um, It's a really difficult situation we are in in the dog world, especially like some veterinarians, especially the veterinary animal behaviorists, you know, because they have gone through the school, they know how, they're supposed to know how the medication work. But But everything they say is not how the medication work.

And they get very angry when somebody says, well, there is this emotional bluntness or lack of motivation or numbness. They hate it when somebody says that. And very quickly, It just doesn't make sense how can one medication, the same pill, work for anxiety, for fear, for aggression, for OCD. For sure it does something collectively to all this stuff. problems.

But it doesn't really address them in any reasonable way directly. It's not like you have a cough and you've got a cough syrup and then, I don't know, you have a headache and you get some... I don't know if that analogy is even better than what we're talking about. But one serotonin pill... It's a great...

Like, what would you think would be a proper way to deal with this with a dog? Like, would you have a slightest idea how that would, depending on, let's say a dog has been for two years on fluoxetine 10 or 10 milligrams or something. And it's about 50 kilos. I mean, 50 pounds. Yeah. Yeah.

What kind of protocol would be a reasonable... Because the reason I'm asking you is because... Let me back up something here.

No, because it's a real, real question. I also run a school for dog trainers. I teach people how to train dogs. And then we have like a monthly meeting with the graduate students. And there was a time when, out of curiosity, I was like, Guys, how often do you get, because they deal with problem dogs, that's why they come for training.

So naturally, the question was, how often you get dogs that are on SSRIs? And everybody, every month, has at least one dog on medication. The youngest one can be six months old, which is ridiculous to even say that it has a problem. It's just a problem. a little puppy that doesn't know who he is.

Then my next question is, when you talk to the owners, have they ever been told that there will be a process of getting away from the medication? Not one, not one single dog, zero. And that's why How do we learn how to do this if we decide to?

Very cool. So, yeah, so when I get accused of not understanding the neurochemistry, when I question the deserine dogs, how does that parallel with what happens to criticism in human psychiatry when that comes? Because that's almost...

Yeah, yeah. I'm sure we will get these responses for sure. It's very... Every time I have talked about it, it brings a lot of interest and definitely... You know what else we do?

especially because they again they're typically not as playful not as excited about anything so in some tricky way we kind of force them to get to start the body to get active so we would like maybe do a light treadmill or a little bike rides and just start increase

to get some conditioning and get some just physical exercises to where the dog starts to like, I find that they, as they're doing that, they start to act a little more normal. And even then, as they come out, they're like really going into a rest because they're simply tired, not because they don't care anymore. And that seems to be really helping as far as

kind of like a kick in the butt to like, hey, do something. Like, let's move, let's do something together. You know how I came up with this was because there was some, again, I don't know, it seems like it's becoming really, which I'm very happy, just very, very much the conversation is real and it's out there for humans right now.

And more and more people are becoming aware that it's not quite as it's presented for so many years. But there was like a couple of other studies that kind of prompt me into this, how they were comparing exercise with SSRI and like running and SSRI.

very quickly the moment you voice opposition or even question you're pretty quickly at least in the dog world put in place like you you don't know what you're doing or what you're talking about how how is that in your field yeah so i'll talk about humans first and then we can bring it bring it back to dogs so um

And it was a very, I actually, I don't know if I have them here, but it was very, very interesting to see that the results of physical activity really made a very, big improvement on mental health, bigger improvement than the SSRIs. There is one, it's called the Exercises Transdiagnostic Intervention for Improving Mental Health. And it's another umbrella review of things. What was the other one?

There is like two of them that did this with But basically, and you have to tell me more about this, but I'm assuming that it's in some way you're forcing yourself to go out and do something for yourself than just sitting and saying how bad you feel. Or is there something more happening?

and that's the same for dogs i mean but before you go and put your dog on an ssri i mean some there's different dogs out there but some dogs oh man they're they're they're bred to move all day they need to that's all they need yeah that's that's where it gets frustrating because uh that that's what that's the one of the frustrating things is when it's like my dog is okay i'm really kind of really butchering this it's not quite like that but it's

It's like my dog is really active, so it's a problem for me. And you can, it's just wrong to say that and label it now as some problem that the dog has to, almost like with the kids with the HDND and things like this, right? It's like, well, the kid is active, like sign them up for some, martial arts or whatever.

Yeah. It's, it's with the dogs, it's almost, and it may be with some humans is the same, but it's like a convenience thing to some great extent just to, yeah, like just calm things down. Um, they have, um, If the dogs are, not the dogs, if the humans, are they sometimes really on their own realizing that the drug actually makes them feel better?

Because in the dog, as I was opening the podcast, all the dogs that I have worked with that were on SSRI they like got way better and some just improved 100% after they were removed. Now, having said that, there is always in the back of my mind, I'm like, but there's gotta be that dog that really needs to be on.

and that dog that comes to mind is just a dog that really we just need to really keep it in that blunt flat state of mind because it is the safest for the dog it is the even emotionally it's probably the better option than any other option but I don't find that, like, how does it really even compare with the human brain and the human emotion?

Because dogs' emotions are, you know, they're not quite, I mean, they do have similar emotion, but they're not quite, you know, we are humans. We have very different level, like in dogs, you know, you have affect, arousal, and, you know, it's much more basic. And How do we, like, do you think that there are dogs that have to be on? Or are there humans that have to be on?

And why are they have to be on?

Yeah, yeah. It reminds me this sometimes, not sometimes, very often in like the dog shelters, where, you know, people will just drop off a dog for whatever reason. And it is quite common to put the dogs on any SSRIs and trazodone and gabapentin for that kind of reasons. But the problem with that is that there, if the dog stays for five months there,

And he's on the medication, and then he comes out. And he really didn't have to be on medication. The only main reason that it's on medication is because he just wants to get out and run, but there is nobody to take him out to run with. And they're just losing their mind and starting to do things, so let's quiet it down. And it's a difficult situation. I can see how...

for the moment this is beneficial but then aren't we creating more problems when that dog is not at the end of its life but actually now needs to come out and needs to deal with the world and needs to become somebody's pet.

Yeah. And I know sometimes there is just no It's very difficult because most of the animal shelters are always packed and and eventually some dogs are just starting to being from the front row to the back side to the back side and eventually nobody ever even knows that they are there and they're on medication and ultimately if it's a no kill shelter they

If they can manage it, they manage it somehow, or otherwise it's euthanasia. That's an option with dogs that we have, the euthanasia, but also very frustrating because that happens sometimes very prematurely. It's like... Like we can say, well, we tried this kind of training. It didn't work. We put it on medication. It didn't work. And the medication is the final say.

It's like, OK, it's been on whatever and it doesn't work. So it must be . It's kind of contradicting because like what exactly didn't work? Like the dog just had to come out and have somebody that show some interaction, teaches it right from wrong and give some outlets to do something with it. But when that's not happening, then they become very difficult to adopt.

But they are also very difficult when they come out and, well, here is your dog, your new dog, but he comes with a chemical imbalance. Do you still want him? And some people will actually take the dog simply because they will feel bad and they want to save that dog. But most of the people will be like, no, I just want a dog to have fun and play with.

I don't want a dog that has chemical imbalance in its brain.

Yeah, yeah, very, very much. Hmm. Like with humans, like if things are progressing the way they are and the more awareness comes, which is really like, I feel like it's in the last few years, it's really just picked up some really, really crazy good momentum. But if not SSRI, what the future looks like for psychiatry? How do you... I mean, because there are problems.

How do you see it moving forward?

I think it will because, again, I mean, that's how the SRIs came to the dog industry. So I would assume that that's how it's going to go. What is the whole...

Like when I had the conversation yesterday with Dr. Orion, you know, like is there a way to measure serotonin level in the brain and to say, well, clearly by now we know that low or higher, like the levels are not really necessarily a factor, but how do we measure serotonin in the brain?

How many types of depression? I don't want to get like too crazy on this, but as you were saying, you get fired from work or you break up with your girlfriend or your football team loses. Sure, you can get upset and that upset can lead into more kind of into depression. But there is some... Can you genetically be really predisposition and just come out and...

It's a very, very crazy thing that the worst is that it's very young. Sometimes dogs just don't have any reason to be on the medication or on medication because maybe some behaviors kind of, as we were talking earlier, is too difficult for the owners to deal with.

But then there is the, you can have a training or you can give up on the dog or you can put it on medication and everybody can make their own choices, I guess. But hopefully people, when they listen to this, like one of the main things is to bring the awareness that you bring to people that it's not just like a vitamin C. It does affect.

And if you decide to give it to your dogs, ask the questions, talk to the vets, and if the vet cannot explain it to you, then you need to find a vet that can actually tell you what can possibly happen. Because typically what they will tell you, it's very standardized. It's like, okay, well, we're going to put the dog on medication. It may lose its appetite for a week or two.

And we were going to see if we need to go a little higher on the dose or lower it or switch the medication. But that's the extent of... It's like when you, as a veterinarian, you're relying on the owner to tell you, well, how are things? How is your dog? And... Typically when you're, like I've had clients with dogs that, again, been for quite some time, like let's say two years on medication.

But here is the thing. I understand bad science when I see it. And after working with dogs for over 40 years, including some of the most complex behavior cases imaginable, I can tell you this. Not one time have SSRIs helped me personally to have a breakthrough with a dog. Not once have they solved the real problem that the dog had.

And I remember this one woman, she was like, I know this is not working, but it's kind of, it makes the owner feel good that they are doing something about it. even though that's something maybe puts the brakes to to really make a big change in the dog but they are going through the right channels to the veterinarian to the prescription and every day the dog gets its pill and and

They feel good about it.

Yeah, that's my feeling. Can you tell me one, like, I know, like I follow you so much, and I love the cases when you have on YouTube, I think it is mostly, when you talk to, I don't know if all of them are your patients, but there are definitely people that have been or are at the moment on SRIs and how they... you know, their experiences.

If you, any of your like top three very interesting ones that comes to mind to share with us.

We're gonna like, uh, if, if anybody, I know some of, I mean, I actually know all of the places where people can find you, but you can, you can direct them to any specific, if you would like your website or the YouTube channel. Cause I know that there will be people that actually,

As much as we are talking about dogs, I know that I even have friends that are on medication or think to be on medication. And the information that you're bringing up, it's so valuable that I know that there will be people that will show a lot of interest to this.

Very cool. Very cool. Well, I think this was, again, I am so happy that I was able to get you because I know how busy you are. And again, it's dogs. But hopefully that was interesting to you also just to get your mind off people for a moment. I'm very interested in this.

You will definitely have a big, big audience that will want to hear it. And hopefully for everybody that listened, yeah, we're going to post all the links, of course. And yeah, I don't know what would be the closing things to tell you, but, you know, Just don't get too comfortable if you're going to be using or you're using SSRIs on your dog.

Understand that it's not necessarily treating directly a problem that the dog has. In some ways, it's more of masking or just as we were talking. And they are not benign. They're not safe as an effective treatment.

uh if you're gonna end up doing something on dogs that will be absolutely amazing and um yeah thank you so much for for the conversation very very insightful and and i know people will be very happy because this this conversation was really missing in in the dog training community uh

And I think that was a big boom, right? I mean, that kind of exploded in 20, whatever, two, three years ago.

Yes, like me having an opening to a podcast when I'm nervous.

And so my like follow up question to this is like, if the science was always that shaky, why did psychiatry and media and pharma and everything, why did they kept pushing it so aggressively? Because... Like, I mean, they had to have a little bit of an idea that that's not quite the case, or did they? Or how, why it became such a mainstream? It's just like, oh yeah, you should.

You go to the doctor and within five minutes, with a less conversation. I will tell it before you answer maybe. Like I remember myself way back in the 90s when I first came to the States from Europe and I broke with my girlfriend. And at that time, I had two young graduates from school, psychiatrists, and I still remember the girl looking at her boyfriend, like, we should put him on something.

In this conversation, I hope that we can bring clarity to why that is. Because the narrative around the drugs needed to be challenged for the sake of humans and animals. For decades, the public has been sold a beautiful but, at the same time, dangerous story. The depression and behavioral issues stem from a simple chemical imbalance, a serotonin deficiency.

And then they both look at me and I'm like, what are you guys talking about? And I can only imagine if at that moment I was to accept that which way my life would go from there on, how little I knew and how much I would have trusted doctors, right? But how come that it's pushed so aggressively to everybody that it's hard to argue?

And it says in the black and white, you're going into this big, nice, beautiful colors, and you're happy. Yeah. I remember exactly.

So like on the other side, who is the person that comes to mind?

Oh, yeah.

Yes, I would love to. You just got my respect for the fact that you will not turn away somebody regardless of how they see the industry and their understanding if they're coming to you to search for help, you are willing to do that. And you just you have my respect for that 100% because this is not the case. And I can tell you from my personal experience, I've had some difficult dogs.

I am quite well off where I am in my life, I do not need to train dogs. The only reason I train dogs is because it is something has to come to me that is incredibly interesting and challenging to the point that I will not be able to sleep at night. And I would go and open all the books again. And I will just like, my mind will just get excited. But that's not always, you know.

So anyway, when I have a case like that, I always try and I have tried few times. to work with a veterinary behavior specialist. And one of, and I'm not, there is no point to mention names and this is pointless because it's not, it's really not a personal thing. And I understand the reasons behind why would you accept or not accept. But it was just disappointing to me that it was a very, very,

Yeah, one of the most influenced people, board director. just looked at my Facebook or whatever social media. It's like, I don't think we can work together simply because... And I started, I didn't hide, of course. I mean, there's nothing, I'm not ashamed of who I am and what I do. I can argue with anybody that I love dogs and I'm passionate and I would do anything.

We just don't agree on certain things, but that's fine. But when I approached them, it was... very honest, I am like, this is who I am, this is what I do, but I'm willing, I want to help this dog, and I'm willing to do, like, exactly by, like, no, you will have no better client than me because I will do it exactly how you want. It's good for my experience. I want to experience that sight, for one,

And of course, if we're going to help the dog, why not? I mean, why not, right? I mean, that's the goal. That's what we all want. That was upsetting that didn't work out. Eventually, I have worked with local specialists again and, you know, Pretty good. But it's not the norm. There is a thing about, well, if you're using a Versaf, we cannot work with you. It lingers always around.

Yeah, no, I'm very, very, very well put here. Okay, Ori, let's... I guess we can really start with pretty much with your reply to what I said on my channel as far as the difference of... For anybody that hasn't seen this, we will put links to those.

But in a nutshell, I was just saying that I do appreciate veterinary behaviorists, but there is a certain line that one industry knows more than the other. And I do have problems with SSRIs in particular in psychotropic and in mind altering medications. And so then Ori made a, I made a,

funny cartoon and of course it's a cartoon and i hope you understand that but there is even though it's a cartoon just like any comedy there is actually a lot of truth in it and what i mean by truth is my truth and you disagree with that and that's kind of how we came to talk about it and yes and so in your explanation and i really kind of

You know, I really appreciated how you did it, because I felt like you were talking, like you genuinely were talking to me. And I don't know if that was the case. But anyway, it was different for me. It was cool. Yeah, it was.

So let's go, the first thing, and maybe not the first that you said, but one of the important things that you brought in is that the SSRIs bring serotonin level to normal and make the brain work normally. Yes. So my question that I hopefully we can unpack somehow is, Where is the scientific definition of what is a normal serotonin level in dogs or in humans?

not a good measure to guess.

Right. What I'm going with this is that, as I say, I try to search, especially nowadays with all the AI options. There is like, it's almost impossible to hide a study. Like even if it's done 1937 or yesterday, and it's done by one person that nobody knows, a certain program will pull it out. And I have tried this for many years.

And now, of course, with the modern opportunity with AIs, I still do. I have not found anything that can back up that claim. And what I'm saying, if there was a study, I don't find it with dogs, with animals, or with humans. And I'm trying to, you mean, just as I was saying, what is the normal serotonin level? And how do we measure it?

Right? That's a big problem.

Right.

Yeah. So even these studies are, you know, there is two that come to mind and they are heavily based on our survey, which we know very well what that means. And what I was really looking forward to is if there is any evidence. I'm not interested in the theory. We know the theory. It's been said.

Like you can go to any vet clinic and you can get any pamphlet, or you can watch TV and it will show up. We know the narrative. And we know the theory and we know the hypothesis behind. But the actual evidence, that's interesting to see. You said that we prescribe SSRIs based on what we think is lacking. Yes.

So if no test confirms deficiency, aren't you just guessing instead of practicing evidence-based medicine?

You see that the dog is not showing the behavior anymore. Yes, correct. Correct. Very true. So you kind of go back and forth, and I do too, between human psychiatry and veterinary behaviors. Because, well, for one reason, there is not much with dogs that's done.

But I can argue that what is done with humans, it's also very questionable and it's becoming to a tipping point that we need to start to think of something, at least reevaluate our perspective even with humans. As I said, I do follow... some big names in human psychiatry. I talked to them. And as a matter of fact, as I was telling you, we're living to go to a championship in Greece in two days.

Tomorrow, the podcast that I was telling you that I'm going to have is with one of those people. And of course... I like to have people like yourself that will challenge my ideas and that I will be able to challenge. And maybe we, of course, we don't agree with each other, but we walk out with something to think of, right?

Well, the person that I'm going to have tomorrow, he is very much on my side of things. Maybe I needed a boost of confidence after talking to you about it. Okay. So but again, we don't have tests to confirm deficiency. We don't have it in humans. We don't have it in dogs. We don't have it in animals.

It is super complicated. Super complicated. Because, like, I totally agree with you with the dog situation. But you have a human that it's, I mean, they can go in an MRI and stay for an hour if they think. I mean, they will do whatever it takes to get their mind fixed, right? Yeah.

Yeah, it was an emotional state. And then what part of the brain activates regarding if they hear a familiar voice versus, you know, so there was a lot of correlations that were not surprising at all.

Great. Great. Man, we have so much to talk and you're right. It's not the other side of the aisle. We just have different takes. We see things, we have disagreements and some are pretty strong. I highly doubt that we're going to convince each other today of anything. Yeah, probably not. Correct. But what we can do is we can at least present

Yeah. I have a... So one of the other questions was that... you mentioned that low serotonin level causes aggression, anxiety, fear, and so on. Yes. And I'm not sure, but perhaps if you are aware of studies where serotonin depletion was artificially induced in humans, right?

Truthfully, I don't know if... I'll put links to this and I can send you an email because they're very interesting. I have it, again, as I said, like I'm trying to, simply because of time restraint, I don't want to miss things. I've never had a desk like this around me right now. But anyway, what was very interesting, and this was done...

as they started to kind of really pay attention and question how the whole thing works and is it just big pharma machine or, you know, the stories. So this is done, it was published in Springer Nature 2024. So it's very, very current. And basically what they did, they reduced level of serotonin in healthy people. And guess what? But nothing happened.

So I can answer that, or at least, but you can see the challenge where I'm taking you, right?

Okay.

The study is called difficult, by the way, because it's interesting, because the title is very, you know, how titles matters always. Yes. It's also like a clickbait, of course. So the title says difficult lives, explain depression better. than broken brains. I think it's a beautiful title.

Yeah, they say, yeah, yeah, they I mean, it's a it's a pretty big thing. I

Good point. Good point. Again, I'm pretty sure it is here. I just don't want to...

the different sides and allow people to make their choices and hopefully do some research on their own. And if that's of interest, right? Because it's not everybody's dish. So how do you see, what is the connection between dog training and veterinary behaviorists?

Yeah, yeah, I can see that. You said something interesting. And I mean, of course, I have it, we go there. But since we just mentioned that, we can just go over that one quickly to, um, something missing in the brain, right? So so like, what's missing? Are we speculating? Or do we know what's missing?

Because if we're speculating, then yeah, we're talking about beliefs, not like biological evidence. No. So it's right.

the the you know the downside the side effects then i will recommend using it and not in every single case yeah yeah you made that clear and that's very i i believe that's the case with everybody i don't think uh like okay there is There is no doubt. There is just no doubt that it's overly used in humans. And it's headed that way with dogs.

And I will explain why I'm saying that because I... By the way, I agree with you. Okay.

Yeah, it's amazing how we... dispense meds, you know, and, and, and AVSB and the human psychiatrists, you just do a very, very good job at convincing owners or patients that they're safe and effective. That that's a, you know, you have to, otherwise would you prescribe it? Of course you wouldn't. You, you have to believe that they are, so you prescribe it. But again, believing versus

actual evidence is two different things and we get there. But we do have evidence. That's the question that I'm going to have for you because I searched for that. I mentioned something and I know that that was what really triggered our meeting. And that was the dogs on meds are, well,

They are numb, right. And your response was dogs on meds are happier, not numb. Exactly. That's the goal. Right. So here is, and trust me, this is not a tricky question. This is a very honest question that I have for you. How do you objectively measure increased happiness in a sedated or emotionally flattened dog? is less energy really the proof of greater well being?

Because you were mentioning hyper anxiety and activity and so on, right?

I actually have the book here somewhere.

And we have, you know, Stahl, which is kind of like the human. I also have the counter books because, you know, there is always a counter book. Yeah. Anyway, let's not waste time. No, no, no.

Because you said something interesting here, you know, like you, um, which is kind of, it's always a big question. And again, this is, I'm taking this straight out of human, the challenge that the human psychiatry has, you know, like, like if we can, we can increase synaptic serotonin levels and, and,

And we know, as you said, that it could take two to four to eight weeks, whatever that time period is. But it's like it takes a little time for them to kick in, right? Yes. So why is that? Because the evidence is that the serotonin level rises within hours after the medication is taken. Exactly.

Yeah, how do we do we agree? is is less energy really a proof of better well being?

They are nowhere to be found. That's the level that I want to see. i don't want to see less than that if the dog is what i call a zombie or what you said you use the word num like yes yes and i i i still um want to kind of emphasize that i do not take that lightly it wasn't you know as much as it was a cartoon and whatever uh yeah there is

Like, and it's not just my belief, there is a very growing within the psychiatry community argument that the SSRIs reduce empathy and emotional responsiveness. And this is serious stuff. And there is studies. There is studies. Like, there is another one that, again, I'm going to show you all those. And all of them are very recent. Now, you and I would agree that you've done research.

I've done research. We can create outcomes. But you can still find some interesting things. So this one... 2019, still fairly recent. Antidepressant treatment, not depression, leads to reduction in behavioral and neural responses to pain empathy. It was a very, very interesting study what they did. They basically had people on medication observe other people feeling pain.

discomfort from different levels, being physical, being mental, being whatever. And it clearly showed they use everything that you would want to do to have correct study, three groups and so on. And it did show that it reduces empathy and emotional responses. When you talk to people,

Like when you talk to, I will tell you, people that have come off or people that are still a little bit capable to explain what is going on. Let me try to kind of paint a picture from one of the conversations that doctor that I'm having tomorrow. His name is Dr. Joseph. But anyway, he basically, like imagine losing all of your positive emotions. No sadness, but like all emotions.

Imagine hugging your best friend or a family member and feeling nothing. Imagine hearing your favorite song that one that used to give you the goosebumps and now it's just background noise. Imagine drinking alcohol, even taking drugs, doing nothing you used to feel something from.

Now, imagine that emptiness is permanent, not because you're broken, but because a drug rewired your developing brain during puberty. And now your body doesn't know how to find its way back. This isn't just a sexual side effect because it's well-known side effect, right? But... This kind of trying to minimize the problem. This is an emotional devastation.

It's cognitive, too, because people cannot think clearly anymore. They cannot work. They cannot connect. They're like spectators in their own lives. If this is what this drug can do to humans who are fully aware and able to talk about what's happening, What the hell do we think happens to the dogs who are being under this kind of medications? Are they safe and effective?

Oh, even a dog trainer was just going to say that.

Oh, yeah, go ahead. Funding is definitely not an issue. I know it's an issue in your... But in the field of human psychiatry, big pharma is flooding. I mean, it's pouring. Funding is not an issue. It's actually funding is what most likely created the overload.

To some extent.

Interesting.

You know, I'm going to chase you down to get this from you, right?

My guest today is someone who has been very vocal on the other side of this conversation. And I think it's important to give both perspectives a real chance to be heard and challenged. I'm joined by Dr. Ori Stoller, also known as Dr. Orion on YouTube. He's a veterinarian and veterinary behavior specialist, a diplomat of American College, a veterinary behaviorist.

Yeah, that's where I want to challenge you again with the we do no harm. I can't because It's always kind of presented more on the safe and effective side, and there is serious, serious side effects. But before we get deeper in those, we can agree that it would reduce arousal, but reducing arousal, it's not the same as restoring joy or something.

But when you're looking at bigger scope, percentage wise, the idea is to just just as you said, in your own words in, in just over arousal, correct. That's a very big distinction between the two. Yeah, I'll correct myself. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But But so reducing over arousal, it's not the same as restoring joy. It's I'm not saying it's a bad thing. It's not. Okay. Okay. Now,

The opposite of depression or anxiety or all of this, it's not happiness. It's really not. I will tell, like, I don't know where I heard it. I think it was one of these current kind of big names. But anyway, when she said this, it really hit home base for me. The opposite is actually curiosity. You want curiosity, you want some, I'm intrigued, I can recognize novelty.

As a dog trainer, when I have a behavior problem, if I have a dog that doesn't have curiosity, I will struggle. I will really, really struggle, right?

actually, like it is very hard to evaluate something that you don't even know what you're diagnosing to begin with. Like I will tell you, and again, this all comes from human psychiatry and the problems that they are facing and that are actually really challenging right now. One of the interesting things is that

all of the studies that come out that actually big pharma allow to come out because there is studies that, like you cannot see a study that's bad. You have to do a serious homework for that.

Right. But the companies like Lilly's and whatever, they want to make money. They want to make money. They have no interest to publish those studies. We know everybody agrees on that. One of the interesting things where I was going with this is that most of the, even the studies that do come out, they're done within, again, this eight weeks of time.

And as you said, from there on, we are putting somebody for three years or perhaps for life on that medication.

How is that eight weeks a baseline of what's going to happen?

I mean, it's very impossible to, to evaluate how the drug affects your brain within eight weeks, and what happens in long term. These are two tweezers, apples and oranges.

We'll get there. Let's not.

No, that was we were just trying to kind of differentiate between the different levels of who calls themselves behaviorist and the different degrees of knowledge, year spent and so on. And clearly, at least in the United States, the top of the As far as you can go, that would be the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists.

I mean, you tested... I need to make sure that we go here and perhaps maybe we do need to go because these are not easy topics and we cannot... You know how you say, well... you can win it off. One of the biggest problems that human psychiatry faces is tapering SSRIs. This is like the most incredibly difficult thing. And it's not talked about.

And there is a lot of psychiatrists that would be like, oh no, like they would come on national TV media and talk about it. And it's like, no, it's very easy, it's whatever. It's total contradiction. It's one of the hardest thing to do. And when it gets really hard, it's not to get to, let's say, from 15 to five. It's the last two. And now you start to blow up.

And now what happens typically is there will, and the patient himself is like, I need to go back on because it's helping me. And it's not because it's maybe it's a serious withdrawal problem. This is highly dangerous, addictive mind.

Yeah, you didn't get the point I'm trying to make. Maybe. The person believes that the medicine is working, while in fact it's the withdrawal of the medicine.

Correct. Correct. And they have to go back on it. And this is with people. And with dogs, we cannot even, you know, all we can do is just watch their everyday life, observe body language and appetite and decide if we need to decide for them. They cannot even say that. And that's a problem.

Okay, didn't really fix the problem. Ori, I totally disagree with what you just said. And it's going to be a beautiful conversation to really go into that rabbit hole about what you just were talking about. Yeah. But it wouldn't make sense. It would be like, again, like a clickbait or this like on TV, like, okay, you have two minutes to say what you need to say.

Like, this is a deep conversation that every like, I bet you we will have a ton of requests of people that would want us to talk about it.

Right?

Yeah. And I, yeah, I love what you're saying. And I have to, of course, mentioned that I am. I do believe that there is time and place for them. But I also do believe that it's extremely, highly overused. I mean, if we're talking, like if I have to put some percentage, I would say like we need to come down to like 3% perhaps instead of... 45. And I can tell you why I'm coming with 45.

I have a school for dog trainers. I have a very big pool of trainers that train pet dogs.

And you have much, much more. I mean, like in your, and that kind of sounds almost... wrong to say, but just for the sake of conversation, like your basic veterinary school, probably what, like you have like a lecture or five on dogs? There is nothing really in depth.

And we have regular Zoom calls discussing cases and so on. And because of my obsession with this kind of stuff, somehow I came up with this question. I'm like, guys, how many of you, how often a dog comes that is on SSRI? Well, it was a lot. It was surprisingly a lot.

My next question was, and what I mean a lot, like let's say within two months, at least one dog was on medication. Now, granted, they come with some problems, right? So we can say, well, they need medication. But the next question I ask is, well, any of these dogs, have you talked to the owners and their veterinarians? Is there any plan to taper off? Never. That's never possible.

Then I was asking them, well, what is the youngest age? And the youngest age was a six month old. What are we doing? And you're correct what you're saying. You're probably very right. But that's most likely on AVSA-B if I have to think who should take responsibility instead of going so strong against averse if I'm not saying they shouldn't or shouldn't. But this is within their real specialty.

They should have some control of the general veterinarian industry of what's happening out there.

Correct. Yeah, yeah. But that's the, like I, you know, as much as even now, as you were talking, I'm thinking how I just can't put the blame on the, just the general veterinarian, but it's probably not even fair to do that because it's been, the whole idea has been sold to them as this medication is safe and effective. So they don't feel that they should be concerned

And we haven't even touched the deadness of the side effects of what this medication do to humans. You know, what is interesting is like if chemical imbalance were truly the root cause of like depression and behavior problems in dogs, how come natural selection allowed it to remain so widespread in population, right? This is not going, this is not, so something is tweaked. That, and, and, and.

All I'm saying is we should not be irresponsible and overuse. Like the most my most difficult cases And they're recorded. They're like from day one, as they come, they are recorded until, like we're talking three months, every session filmed, regardless if it's here in a training or if it's out in public or whatever. So it's very, very well documented.

This stuff I have learned that it's important to do because talk goes so far. My most difficult cases, I found that I have to taper them off the medication. so they can start to get excited about life a little bit. So I can so I can connect to it. So I can say, Hey, Bobby, Bobby goes, Yeah, it's me. And I have something to work on.

And I'm not going to change my mind. I agree with you 100%. I'm also not going to change my mind. What I was going to say is, like, I have this one dog right now that I somehow end up with. And he's that kind of dog that you just described him very well. He was on, oh, man, what was the medication now? Exoplum. Acetalopram. Yeah. Yeah. Gabapentin. Trazodone.

the CBD supplement and some other supplements for calmness for three years without any like zero change. He's going to be euthanized tomorrow.

Like you can see my frustration.

But I was not able to get anything from him while he was on medication. And that's very well documented. And now when we have, and I'm sure we will have the next conversation because people will want us to talk about aversives and electric colors in particular. I promise you they will want to. You will see the comments.

But just to say that I absolutely would agree that you can bring that in and say, well, but there is, you know, a lot of shit happening with...

Thank you.

No, I genuinely, just like yourself, I have my beliefs, but I want to challenge my beliefs. And that's why I have the conversations. I do want, like you convinced me, I'm not going to keep hitting, banging my head in the wall. Like I'm not. I know we are well over the time that you said you can have. I really, really appreciate it. I was actually very...

very happy with how we were able to talk to each other, even to begin with, because you never know how this can end up.

And as we said in the beginning, we still are who we are. Nothing has changed, but we allow people to hear different sides. And I think that's what matters ultimately. So really, really appreciate. I will send you, as I promised, I'll send you all these little things. And I will remind you to get your study. And hopefully we make it again. I really think it will be cool.

Thank you, Ari. Thank you so much.

Sorry, veterinary behavior medicine. But that's why we have the next level, right? Because some veterinarians are just not interested in, and it's just not emphasized, and that's fine.

We connected after I posted some critiques about the overuse of SSRI in dogs and how they actually work. Ori responded publicly and to his credit. He agreed to come and have a direct and respectful conversation. So first of all, Ori, thank you for being here.

Yeah, I'm fully aware of that. I know that we are so short on time. I mean, hour and a half is plenty of time. And I really appreciate that you were able to scramble and make it work this way. Because after you've seen my podcast, I kind of like to take it super slow and ramble back and forth. And today I had to prepare myself. I have notes all over my desk here, which is super unusual.

Very cool. I'm sure we should. Let's see how it goes. Of course. Let me tell you a little bit about because it's just something that I don't think it's ever even come up in podcasts or anything that I do. But I came in the States in like early 90s. I took two courses in Cornell. And it was, you know, dog training and dog behavior.

And it was, I mean, the people that I will tell you, of course, they're very know, they're just top of the leaders of the industry. Dr. Katrin Haupt, Soraya Jurabe-Diaz, Ilana Reisner, and so on. Yes. So trust me when I tell you I have... taken a lot of time in my life to study. I do not have the PhD, but I don't watch soap operas. All I do is books and courses and webinars.

And believe it or not, I probably have seen more what was it, the American College webinars that they have done, most veterinarians do. And when they do it, some of them, just like in the dog training world, like you will have police officer that goes to a workshop just because it's their job and they have to, they don't have any interest. They're just, it's a payday.

So I know that a lot of veterinarians perhaps do the same. Some are super interested and some do it just because they have to. Well, in my case, it's voluntary. So I'm really, like I study this stuff. So I don't want you to think that some, you know, like whenever we get into the discussion, I will try to

really back up my claims and my reasoning behind what I'm saying, but I just kind of thought that it's important to mention that as much as I'm in dog training, I am very, very interested and I believe that I'm very up to date on what goes on.

All right, everybody, welcome to Training Without Conflict, podcast number 59. Today we're going to have a conversation that I think is very important for the dog training and veterinary behavior communities. And it's kind of overdue. There is a lot of confusion, a lot of strong opinions, and frankly, a lot of marketing surrounding the use of psychiatric medications in dogs, especially the SSRIs.

Before we jump into the meat of the conversation, can you give the audience a little bit about your background, how you became into the veterinary behaviors and what got you in dogs and all that good stuff?

What are Like, I know we're going to hit the SSRIs, we're going to hit electric collars or shock collars, whatever we're going to call it, but what are, like, dog trainers? Like, not in the medical sphere, but actual dog trainers that you not necessarily look up to, but they're, like, you can say, well, this is somebody that I...

trust that they have knowledge that they treat the dog with ethically and and so forth who comes to mind am i looking for no who comes to mind like in in as far as like in the dog training field i mean if if somebody does if not it's no problem

Yeah, yeah. Like, you know, like we can agree. Okay, well, just as you mentioned, Cesar Milan time and the way you said it, I already know how you feel about it.