James Pomerantz

But that's, you know, sometimes it is. That's all you can do is what you can do. No more.

But you know, you're not going to live like that.

Yeah.

And he gives a shit. Sure. Sure. Yeah.

Yeah. They're the future. In a real way, they are the tip of the spear. They're the most evolved human creature that there is at this point, our kids.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

I don't think we did. I know I didn't have those tools. No. I recall too, the first time somebody showed me Google, I think I was about 19 years old.

And my cousin came over and goes, check this really cool thing out. It's called Google. Yeah. I said, what the fuck is Google? And he showed it to me and I thought, this is ridiculous. I never looked at it again.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, there's a lot of risks, but there's so many benefits too. And it's not going anywhere. Well, it's going somewhere and that's forward. It's not going away. Yeah. You're going to have to figure out how to mitigate and utilize AI to your benefit and your safety. And kids got to learn how to do that. Yeah. But it's like having a personal assistant if you learn how to use it.

You could have AI do virtually everything that you need for you.

It wouldn't have been the best? I mean, yes. How do the schools, how do they know that kids aren't doing that? Do they have tools for scanning homework and minimizing kids' abilities to do that? What's the word? Is it plagiarism? Yes, plagiarism is written.

But if AI writes it, do they consider that plagiarism still? So I think there are tools that you can put. See, my kids aren't quite old enough yet where I'm like dealing with that. My freshman is, you know, there's a lot of talk about AI and, and whatever that is plagiarism, but I haven't gone through like where they're writing papers and they've got these significant assignments.

I think it is something like that. Which does suck because they have- Because if you want, expect everybody to have the full mathematical proficiency in their head at all times when I don't need it because it's right here.

A lot of people are involved in our lives that play a huge role too. That's the missing piece. We bring in people that know these skills and have skill sets and they have knowledge that we don't have. And that's what I guess makes us...

humans that are adaptable you know we have the adaptability but really it's about how do i when i know i don't know something or i need something or i need help with something how do i go find that who do i bring in right that's the question will i do that or will i go get the training or will i learn how to do things that i don't already know that i need or do i just say i need to bring somebody in on this that's the missing piece though

And it gets lost. It does. And I lose that sometimes. I lose sight of that. And I have many times in my life just to look back at my entire life and see how many people it took and how much work they put in and in their entire life and what they built up to just to help support where I am at that time in my life. And that goes on and on all the way up until today.

It's like there's never been a moment where everything that I've done, everything that I have, everything that's in our lives right now is not on the backs of hundreds of people and all of their sacrifices and everything that they've done. I mean, to remember that, you realize you're never alone, too. That's the crazy thing. There's nothing individual about this whole journey that we're on.

Life is an entire series of making relationships and working with one another.

It's humbling, but it's also feels great. You know, it's like it takes you to a safe spot. I don't have to, I don't have to do it all. I don't have to be the guy that does it all anymore. I can let that go, which is hard because you forget it. Coming from the world we came from though too. Right. So that was a world where you feel like you've got to save the world. It's my job to save this place.

I think somewhere they were subtly just pumping that into our minds. That way they can make us work harder, train harder, be better, go faster. There was something subtly, hey, you guys need to be, you're going to be the one that saves the world.

What, like my torn rotator cuff and- No, no, none of that is the upside.

Or assassinating people or something like that.

Sin boldly, they say, right? That's the only way you know where you're at. How'd you find your way into the SEAL teams anyway? So Chicago land. So we're in Chicago and my parents, they get divorced. We moved to Indiana. I'm 14 years old, dealing with the divorce transition. We're in a new school system, trying to figure things out.

And I actually knew I wanted to go in the military right about that time, 14, 15. Military family? No, not really. Really? I have an uncle that was a lieutenant in the Navy, sub guy. I got an uncle that was a Vietnam Navy vet. But we didn't really spend a lot of time with them. Their story is somewhat significant.

There was there's one story where my uncle was at the Naval Academy and my mom takes us out to the Naval Academy to see him. And while we're there, it was like. I'm just this Midwest boy and we go to this academy and there's guys marching around. I mean, it was the coolest experience that you would have, could possibly have as an, I might've been 10 years old.

Um, and I remember that, you know, the whole, this whole, what do they call them? What do they, what a company or something that's marching, marching by. And, and he sits me up and we were standing there and he sits me up and he says, check this out. And they all come by as just the most you know, wild, crazy thing that you would see as a kid. That's a deep core memory though.

It's a deep core memory. That's right. That's right. I think it had a huge impact on that decision. Now, fast forward, I was going to go into the army, um, and be a Green Beret. That was my original goal. And I'm walking into the recruiting station. And the recruiting offices, they're all next to each other, interestingly. And so I look over and I see this poster board of these guys in wetsuits.

little MP5s or something like that.

It looked, yes, it was almost like it was the cover of the Charlie Sheen movie, Navy Seals. And so I looked at that and I go, who are these guys? And the guy goes, those are Navy Seals. I go, what's up with these guys? What are they, what's their deal? And he gives me out, you know, the sheet of things that they'll do and what you'll learn. And I go, yeah, that's it. that's what I want to do.

And he goes, no, nobody makes it. And I go, wait, what? That's potentially the most honest recruiter ever. Yeah. I was like, oh, really? Nobody makes it, huh? Why? Why does nobody make it? He goes, oh, at least 85% washout. And now I'm like really intrigued. I'm like, you're kidding, right? He's like, no, no, no, no. This is really tough.

So I go home and I bring this little piece of paper home and I'm in high school and I show my family and they're like, what the hell are you doing, man? This is a terrible decision. And so they talked me out of it. And my best buddy, he, he, he joined the army. He left at 17. Well, he graduated, he, he joined at 17. And as soon as he graduated high school, he left, went to bootcamp.

Right. Probably like right at the right before. Right. So he leaves in 2000, the summer of 2000. And I wanted to go with him, but I didn't. Um, And he goes to boot camp, and he comes back a little bit different. Not entirely different, but a little bit different. 9-11 happens. They ship him immediately. He goes over, and he spends eight months in Iraq. He comes back, totally a different guy.

I'm like, what the fuck happened to you? What was he doing in the Army? Do you remember? He had been in a few firefights, but I think— I don't know what he was doing. Okay. I was just curious what his MOS was. Yeah. I don't know what his MOS was, but they got hit on a convoy and he came back a totally different guy. And I go,

Whatever he knows or whatever he experienced, I got to know what that is. And I didn't put it off any longer. So I began training, went back into the recruiting office, started signing paperwork. And I said, I have to have a contract. I have to go in. We got to do this whole thing. And eventually got my program and got my contract.

During that time, I was doing some mixed martial arts, fighting mixed martial arts.

Yeah, well, there was that.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's what I, you know, it was the same thing. I watched, I watched, you know, UFC was getting big at that time. And I was watching Randy Couture fight Chuck Liddell. The Iceman. So, you know, that was, that was legendary UFC times for me, at least. I mean, that was. I think it still is. I think it still is. Those guys were glorious.

And I'm sitting in my mom's basement with my brother and I'm watching this and I'm about 20 years old. And I think, holy shit, I got to do that. And so him and I, we start, we decide I'm going to start training and I'm going to fight in mixed martial arts. How long between that decision and your first fight? I couldn't say, I look back on it. I mean, maybe a year and a half, maybe two.

I wrestled all through high school and I was an okay wrestler and a decent grappler. Um, and I had my fair share of, of, of bar fights and things like that. Right. So not that that gets you too far, but at least I knew I could take a punch. It's exposure to violence that most people quite frankly don't have. And I was familiar on a mat, and so I go and look for the nearest jujitsu gym.

That's kind of BJ Penn just kind of rolled onto the scene, and so you realize striking was not what it was. That wasn't the total game. You really had to have a good ground game. BJ Penn came on, so I look for a jujitsu gym. I start doing a little, like, Muay Thai. I get in this jujitsu gym with this guy, Patrick Robinson, and we're just doing mostly gi. I think it's pretty much...

primarily Gi wrestling. Um, and he takes a job as the head wrestling coach for, uh, one of the local high schools. And I tell, you know, he agrees, he'll take me on as assistant coach. So now I'm coaching a little bit of high school wrestling. I'm in the gym, uh, grappling with this guy. Um, and his is like a, you know, it's like a sterile environment. Like it's like,

People are trying to gently, sophisticatedly roll in a game. The nerd assassin. It's the nerd assassin. And then when I show up, it's like there's sweat all over the entire mat.

Right. And he eventually is like, hey, Tom, all right, listen, I got... Let me suggest something to you. I got some guys. Maybe you'll fit in really well over here. And he gives me the number to this little this little dungeon MMA gym called Dunlin Valley Tuto out of Chesterton, Indiana. He gives me the number to this guy. Keith and Justin was two brothers ran this gym.

And so I called Keith Wisniewski that night. He goes, yeah, come on in tomorrow night. You know, we practice at whatever, 6 p.m. And so I show up there and, you know, it's like the most vivid memory pulling into this parking lot of this shithole shopping mall at the very end in the worst part of town, all the way at the very end.

And all the window, the big glass windows and the windows are totally steamed over as you can't see anything. But all you can hear is music and you can hear people just thudding in there. Dumb, dumb, dumb. And here I am like this. I pull in my little piece of shit car and I'm just sitting here like this. I'm going, oh, my God, am I really going to do this? Right.

This feels like the most daunting thing that you could possibly imagine doing at this time for me. And then the door opens and this behemoth of a man comes out. He's got a tattoo of a cross, just gigantic, bald headed guy. And he walks past my car and he looks right at me. And he's got his shirt off. And he looks right at me. And I just look at him like this.

I go, we both stare each other right in the eyes. And he just gives me this most subtle little nod like that. And I'm like, oh, yeah, man. I'm doing this, man. I'm doing this. So I walk in there. And they had just, you know, the team guys, they have all finished, right? These guys are part of the Doolin Valley Tudor team. They're done. I walk in. Keith and Justin, they go, hey, who are you?

I say, I'm Tom. I talked to you earlier. They said, OK, come here. They go, did you bring shorts? I'm like, yeah, I brought some shorts. And they go, OK, put them on. And then they just proceeded to smash me for an hour and a half, just grind me into the mat, into the corner, down, everything they had, everything I had. It actually probably wasn't nothing for them.

And I stood up at the end after all this time. There's guys in the gym watching and laughing and pointing. He goes, all right, I'll see you tomorrow. Fuck yeah. I go, fuck yeah, man. And I was in. And that was it. I was hooked. And then from that point on, it was about a year, I'd say, before I set up my first fight. Did you like the fights? Did you enjoy it?

The fighting was the best thing I think I'd ever done. Even if I look back on everything, like the experience from my first fight and the post fight and that sensation was, it was just, there's almost nothing has matched that.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When do you stop doing that? You know, at what point do you eventually say, no, actually I can't do that, but you have to at some point.

Oh, there's no question.

Yeah.

Right.

Based on that experience, what is it that makes guys quit?

Okay, okay, okay. That's good. That's great. Think about this. All abuts, including Hell Week. Time. Time was the only thing that was on my mind. There are two ways to view time. I divided time into fractions of moments. That's why you were successful. And I calculated over and over. And every time I would see your watch, you were my second phase instructor.

I don't know if I did in second phase, but certainly in Hell Week. Yeah.

Yeah. No, you didn't. Yes, we would.

Or in training? All the calculating I did was not even correct. Correct. And it was just in my head that I had figured this out. And that gave me... So it was really, really only in my head. Because the time calculations weren't even right.

What is it now? I don't know, actually. I don't either. I read something it was third week, but I don't know.

Why can't we get that across to them? Why will some of them figure this out or some of them will take and heed this advice and learn it and use it and then some won't? Some will go right back to 182 days.

Yeah. So being good at disassociating really helps, huh? Yeah. Yes. Not in all aspects of life, but... Not at all. But if you've learned that, how to do that, you might have an upper hand in buds, possibly. You might. Legitimately, you do. Or if you practice. Or if you practice this, compartmentalizing some of these things.

Yeah. That is, that is high performance individual for sure. Yeah.

Everything can. Well. Everything is a gift and a curse, isn't it?

You guys ready?

Yes, yes, yes, yeah, yeah. How do you create boundaries and then how – Do you move them? Fuck if I know. I mean, isn't that what this whole journey of life is about? How do I know what's best for me? And then how do I set boundaries according to that? And then how do I move them when I realize I need to move them a little bit? That's the key. Life's not static, so you have to move.

Yeah. Have you guys done podcasts before? Okay. Not really. Okay. Not really. Me either. This book just came out.

But, you know, we want it to be so static. I did love, I loved the military because they just tell you what to do. I mean, I loved Bud's because it was a real, it was a fucking crazy adventure, right? It was wild. It was an endless challenge. You're like, you never know what's going to happen as a Bud's student. But you also get just told what to do and you just do it.

And even in the military, once you make it and you're in the teams, it's really, you know, you don't have to make a whole lot of decisions.

Easier said than done. Easier said than done, yeah. Yeah, because I feel like my transition out, I did that same thing, but I used football and I used going to Northwestern and playing football. It was the same thing. You just do your job and you don't really have to make a whole lot of hard decisions. Isn't it easy? This is what I need to do today. That's it. Because my boss told me.

I got to be here at 6 a.m. just like I'm used to. And I get everything scheduled for me. Yeah. So that helps with the transition. But it does help to have something like that, that kind of scaffolds you into your new life. And you slowly are beginning to learn how to do what's best for yourself instead of what's best for the Navy, the country, your team. It just takes time. And it takes...

And it's great to have a few people at least that see it and they maybe have experienced it or at the very least they're super compassionate and gentle and they can just walk you through it and they can watch you stumble. They can watch you go through all the ups and downs, but they're just there for you. Like kind of like a dad.

It's nice if you've got somebody that can treat you like they're your father and they can slowly help you through some of these things.

So what, what, what, what did they actually, did they just pull it off your uniform?

Please remove that from your, I got pin or patch, um, patch. Okay. And then I had to stand watch at the front, at the guard station in Coronado. Every single guy come through. I was after my second platoon. What did you do? I got kicked out of Humvee School in Reno. I didn't know that was possible. Tell me more. Fucking Humvees. Fucking long story. Give me the wavetops. What did you do?

I went in. I was too pumped jumping it. And I was pissed that they sent me there because I had already done two. And that was a new guy school.

And I thought I was going to go to Iraq and just drive Humvees like it was nothing. Right. No big deal. Well, they made me go to this school and I did not take even an ounce of it seriously. I was driving around like drinking Red Bulls while we're rock climbing these mountains and just treated everybody like total shit. I was the biggest asshole, arrogant two pumper that you would ever meet.

Isn't being young fun? Oh my gosh. And so I... I look in the rearview mirror.

I think about some of these moments and that's for sure one of them. But we went out and we went, we went into the, into Reno and drank and gambled. And I came back and I parked the Humvee like in a, in a crook, way crooked way, right out in front. And we came back at like three in the morning. And then I gun decked the, the pre-checks on it. Gun deck means you, there's like a checklist.

I did. That's right. That's right. So I just went check, check, check, check, check. Right. We were just going to go drive around somewhere and, you know, in some Hills over there. So I didn't think it was a big deal. And they, they wanted me out of there anyway, cause I was being such an ass and, um, And they called me into the office and said, hey, we're going to kick your ass out of here.

And I go, what? Why? And they go, we caught your gun deck and the whole thing. And I said, how do you catch me? And they pulled up the footage from the security camera on the barracks. I'm like, oh, no, you guys really do have evidence of this. And I said, OK, fine. And I had to call my LPO and tell him, hey, I'm coming home early and I'm not getting my driver's license.

How long did they take your bird from you? Not long. It was really a short one, but after I finished that, I think I did two, maybe two mornings out on the guard check.

Oh, man, it was the worst thing you could ever think of, standing out there with no bird.

I was just like this, hi, guys. Yeah. Hi.

I mean, how far back in time should we go? Where'd you go? Let's start there. I grew up in Chicagoland, a town called Oak Lawn. Is that... Southside Chicago. Okay. Southside Chicago suburb. Is Chicagoland a term that Chicagoans use? Yeah, yeah, I think so. You know... I really use it because we're actually in Indiana. So we get confused for being a part of Chicago.

Exactly.

Every time I see one of those vans, that's all I know.

Even the van we got in from the airport today. I mean, I was thinking about this and reminiscing anyway, so it was on my mind.

And we call ourselves Chicagoland because of how close we are, but we're not actually in Illinois. Which direction did you say, south? We're southeast.

Why did they stop banging the Tridents in? They didn't. Are they still doing it?

So did I. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. We did it quietly as well. Okay.

As long as it's still going on.

Yeah. Well, yeah. Just to get an idea of the family that I come from for, for our Trident ceremony. My family comes into San Diego. My uncles get in the biggest fight that there ever was. What's the hotel that's further south down the strand? Nice hotel.

I know exactly what you're talking about. They're in there. There's blood all over that white tile. Who are they fighting? Each other. Yes. My dad and his two brothers are fighting each other. They get thrown out of there. They get kicked out. The Lowe's Resort. The Lowe's Resort. That's where they were all staying at. My family's staying at the Lowe's Resort.

So my grandfather, my grandmother, my uncles, my aunts, their kids, there's like 30 people there. They get kicked out, the whole family. And manager comes out and they say, okay, these guys are kicked out. And they think they're going back to the room. And the manager goes, no, all of you guys are out. And so they leave and check into the Coronado. Hotel Del?

Oh, boy. Right? So the next morning is the Trident ceremony. And in walking, my dad and my uncles, their faces are all covered in bandages, bloody. What started this fight? Swelled up. Um... They were out drinking all night long. Well, I mean, obviously. Most fights don't start themselves. You know what? They got in an argument and it just turned into a maddening. incident.

If you can't beat the shit out of your brothers, who can you beat the shit out of? Well, I mean, you probably should, you know, think about the venue, maybe, maybe a little bit of where it's at. Like, let's just go open hand.

That's true. Yeah. So I, yeah. So there were some issues with who's going to go and invitations. So there was a little bit of shit talking going on. All right. I mean, I appreciate that.

Yeah. Well, actually not metaphorically. That'd be literally. It was actually literally. Yeah. Yeah. I was, I started in 264, but I got rolled in second phase for the tread. For the tread? Yes. The fuck is wrong with you? Tread's hard. The tread is easy. The tread almost killed me. I think I actually did die at one time.

So I... It's a one-to-one ratio. We're not going to let you die, probably. I wish I knew who my one instructor was. Describe the tread for people who are unaware of it. Well, second phase... I spent an enormous amount of time on pool comp, practicing pool comp, right? Just, you know, where are my straps at? But that's after the tread. Right. You got to get to the tread first.

I know I overlooked the tread. I thought too, exactly what you just said. So anybody listening, the tread is not easy. Do not overlook.

Let me do my job.

Oh, and you will fail. Are you over there Googling the tread, Michael? I don't know if there's a good video of it. The most miserable way. So I get in the water. You got to describe what it is, though. I think everything is fine. So I got a 12-pound weight belt on. With your twins. With twins. Big twins on the back, right?

But let's not forget the one key piece of gear that should help you in this. Your fins. Yeah. Well, how about that for a... you know, a twisted little fucking trick that is. I would rather eggbeater the thing. It would be way easier. So the fins are on and I get in the water. I really think it's going to be a piece of cake.

Thanks for that, appreciate it.

That's not true.

You know, I'm, I'm all right. I, I now, I love, I love it if I fail. Yeah. It's okay. It's okay.

It's okay. And I, I'm, I'm cool with it, but I, so I had my, I had my hands out of the water as does everybody when they start for the first two minutes. And then I still had my hands out of the water. Only my head never came out of the water. Then after that, so I'm on breath hold probably in, you know, around three minutes and come up and you just get a little tiny squeak of air.

And then after that, there was no more of that anymore. That air was gone. But you get four shots at it. And now my hands began going in the water. Well, yeah. Yeah. So here I am. Now I'm flailing in the water. I know that I've failed because he told me. And I think, well, good. I'm done with this then. Five minutes is five minutes, sir. So here I go.

Start working my way over to the side of the pool. I know. He, he, he, he intervenes and gets between me and the edge of the pool and he kicks me back out in the water. And I would give him the look of like, what's the problem here, bud? We're going to get our five minutes. He goes, you got five minutes. You signed up for five minutes. I go, Oh shit. Really? Okay.

So, um, so now even with my hands in the water and he goes, and I still want you to have your hands out of the water. I go, okay.

And he just is in there and said, I quit? He Dior'd. I almost did that. I, you know, now I'm starting to sink below the water, even with my hands in the water. That's how tired I got within this little, you know, short timeframe. And I'm so exhausted and I couldn't get back to the surface. And I get this really brilliant idea that, you know, he will take me out of this pool if I'm dead. True.

Well, near Wilmette.

And so I go like this and I just go stiff.

And I go like this and I just, I stared off into the distance and I just let my weight belt take me down to the bottom. And I just see him, he looks and his expression changed a bit. And then he dives down and swims and he gets this close to my face and he looks right in my eyes. And then I just see this giant smile on his face and he starts laughing and his bubbles come out.

And that's when I knew. He's not going to save me, is he? He knows I'm not dead. You'd be surprised how many times people play dead and you just sit there. I wondered if I was the only guy.

Yeah. Yeah.

I resurrected myself there. I was, see, and, uh, and I, and I got a little push off the bottom and, And back to the surface I went and toughed out the last however long.

All those attempts looked the exact same way, just about. Really? Yes. So were your legs getting tired? Were you having a hard time breathing? I just had no, I just, I didn't practice it at all. So I just had, I just, I could not get the muscle memory and the breath work right. Yeah. And I was exhausted within two minutes. So I had put so much into that first one.

I knew that there was no way I was going to pass anything after that. even though they were on subsequent days. Well, yeah, right. But I had no ability to figure out how to do this. It was... Okay, so then you get rolled. So I get rolled. I'm assuming you practiced the living shit out of this. I could literally pass that thing with my elbows out of the water the next time I took it.

The only thing more important than the time of year, I guess. And he's doing it right. He's got this great condo up north Chicago, which in the summertime, Chicagoland's awesome. Chicago's great. In the winter, not so much. But Arizona in the wintertime is spectacular. Way better than Chicago.

But that's one of those, that's a moment that I look back on. And I mean, that was like, that really was, I died that day. I mean, I faked it, but something in me died, right? It was like, I realized there was no way anyone was going to save me from here on out. We would have pulled you out of the pool. Well, you would have. But I would have been dead. Sort of, technically.

I would have been somewhere in between there.

How many guys pass out? Probably not that many in the tread unless they- Not on the tread.

But I do recall all of you guys laughing your asses off at me after you failed me. Of course. Yeah. What else are we supposed to do? I gave you all a great laugh. Oh, well, hey, this guy tried to pretend that he died. Oh, it happens to all of us. It's amazing.

OK. So we end up. Our platoon and our sister platoon ended up kind of winning that sort of battle. I guess that was going on. I'm a new guy, so I didn't really know too much of what was happening. Yeah, it's above your pay grade a little bit. I'm just busting my ass as hard as I can.

And then when they said, hey, we need you to work hard because we may be able to augment and go to Afghanistan with dev group guys. I was like, I'll do whatever you want me to do. So we ended up getting chosen for that. We deployed, went to Afghanistan, attached to Red Squadron. We were there for about three months. It was pretty cool. Came back. Then we went to the Philippines.

Did a trip in Philippines, Basilan Island, came back and I did an Iraq tour to Crete, Kirkuk. And then while we were leaving Iraq, we're in Kuwait, I get the call that my wife was taking the kids and moving back to Indiana. So she was leaving me. And so- While you were overseas. While I'm overseas. Man, that's- It was rough. Not like there's a great time to receive that call.

My first response was, you know, good riddance, you know, fine. I'm going back to the teams. I'm- Yeah. But after a couple of weeks, I talked to my lieutenant and he said, we can get you a billet at Great Lakes if you're interested, which is in Chicago at Navy boot camp. It was like a dive motivator? Bud's Prep was there. Oh. So we had the Bud's Prep program. So I went and LPO'd Bud's Prep. Okay.

And they started that after I went through. And then from my understanding, they shut it down. Yeah. Yeah. They're trying to possibly bring it back again. Why did they shut it down? I mean, it was a little bit of chaos over there. I mean, there was nobody watching us, zero oversight. I mean, that's a solvable problem though. But that was fine. I think it's money, financial.

But they had it there for a couple of years after I left. So I went there and I just kind of tried to reconcile my marriage and get my life and my family, my kids back. I never really had an intention of getting out at that point. But once I got there, And I started spending lots of time with my kids. I had two boys at this time, spending time at home. I bought a house.

I, you know, I see guys going to school, getting degrees, transitioning out, all these things are going on. And I start thinking, man, this, I think I could do this. How many years had you been in? I was at about eight years in. That's a good go, no go.

I knew I was at that spot. I wanted to go and screen for green team, you know, originally, but that sort of dream dwindled a little bit at that point. Um, I also was stationed there with Dave Goggins. Dave Goggins was my chief there. And so he's, you know, doing his crazy stuff.

And I kinda, you know, spent a lot of time with him and he was one of the guys that pushed me towards going to Northwestern and playing football there. You know, he just kind of had this crazy idea that this is what this, you could do this if you want. Um, and so I started looking at that as an option. And, and as I, um, He took me down to Northwestern, and he spoke with the football team.

No, two sons and a girl. How old's the girl? 16. Where's she at in the line? Youngest. Youngest, okay.

And I got to meet Coach Pat Fitzgerald. And that's when I asked him if he thought I could come play for him. And he said, hell yeah, come on out.

Excellent. Yeah. Good. A little bit of a break in between. So, you know, I was just kind of healing up a little bit and getting my body ready, getting prepared. So you had to have gotten out of the military, though, to go to Northwestern, right? No, I was still active duty at Bud's Prep. To play football there, too? And I played football there, too, yeah.

Yeah, so I was doing a pretty ridiculous schedule at that time. It was like leave the house at 4.30. I'd be in Evanston. at practice or film or whatever we were doing, weightlifting in the morning, drive back to Great Lakes during the day, fulfill my duties at Bud's Prep, then drive back down in the evenings if I had classes and do whatever else I had to.

So it was like, I was doing like 12 hour, you know, How'd your wife like that? She loved it, man. She was so happy that I was doing that. No, she hated all of it.

No, she hated all of it. It was a tough time, right? I mean, you just make some strange decisions at those times in your life. I had convinced myself that...

this was in the benefit for my family and my kids that this is what needed to happen in order for me to transition out of the military successfully and provide for my family and my kids like if i'm going to do that this is what would need to happen it's the same lie that i told myself and i think a lot of other people tell themselves when we're in that the job can never suffer first why because we'd be considered a quitter to those around us right again this currency

I'm not an expert in math. I had a whole bunch of additional kids, but between the three of us... No, I would actually probably blow my brains out.

Job suffered last, always. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't think that there's any way to come to that conclusion without going through it all. I wish I could tell. Which sucks. I wish I could even tell, you know, and so as a dad now, those things, those things, those kind of ideas terrorize you. They won't listen. Can I help them to absorb these lessons or do they have to do it all themselves?

Do they have to go through that whole ridiculous series of events that I went through to get to here, to have the idea, to know that I don't have to do that. I don't have to prove myself. I don't have to live up to anything. I don't have that fear of missing out. I don't need anybody to love me or like me. I don't need any of that. It's not my job to save everybody.

Or do they just have to go through that? And that's okay. I think two things can be true.

Does he really?

That's cool. Sometimes. And he's a part of your life and you guys spend time together?

You should get a shirt with his beard on it.

That would be cool.

So we have 12 kids. Where's he at? Are you the oldest? He would technically be the oldest. He's 23.

Yeah.

So you knew that that was his reason for it then.

But it took six months to find that out.

What is that age group like for the boys? Cause I'm at 14, I'm at 14, 13, 11 and nine right now.

So yeah. I mean, I'm so glad that you guys are back in a good spot, you know? Oh, I can't wait to put him in a home.

We're working it out. That's good. Yeah. Yeah. What would you... So my relationship with my dad, we have no relationship. We don't talk at all. When did that start? It started when I... Well, when it very first started was when I beat his ass about... I was about... I was 21. Yeah. And he was harassing my mom. My dad's... had to struggle with alcohol his whole life. So he's harassing my mom.

I'm 21 years old. And one day I just say, you know what? Fuck this. This ain't happening anymore. And I go to his shit hole apartment, kick the door in and beat his ass, right? And leave him there. We didn't talk for five years after that. He didn't call anymore. There was no more harassing, but he would slowly work his way back in and we would become friends again and we'd spend time again.

And then this whole process would happen again. Um, and I shut him out and say, we're done. And then we would do it again and do it again. And here we are again at this spot. I haven't talked to him in two years. Um, basically the same thing happens where he'll come around, spend time with us, be around the kids. And I want him to have a relationship with his grandkids.

And, um, and so I give him this leeway and I opened the door and we opened our heart to it. And then he fucks it up. How does he fuck it up? Start drinking? Generally drinking. Yeah. Drinking, um, doesn't come around anymore and then might just leave. And so now we're two years out and I'm back to this spot of like, you know, I wonder if, um, I wonder how he's doing.

I wonder if we could bring him back around. I wonder if we could make him part of our life again. So here's all I would say. Here would be my advice.

Yeah, that's good. Yeah, that's where we're at. That's kind of how I look at it too. I've been around substance abuse long enough to see it, to know how it works. And it does work like that. But am I going to expose my family to that?

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's a tough spot. Right. And as a dad, just knowing the joys of being a dad too, right. For him to miss out on all of that stuff. I think about when I'm going to be 65 or 70 years old. Assuming you make it that far. I didn't think I was going to make it this far.

There's nothing in my past history that says that's a guy that's trying to make it to 43 years old. I'll be 43 tomorrow, by the way. Happy birthday. Thanks.

What's the analogy we just got? Something about life is like a roll of toilet paper.

It just spins faster and... God. That's our publisher.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The health is, you know, we, we took a lot of risks and put a lot of mileage on our bodies internally too. Right. And even up here, that's a lot of, a lot of, a lot of horsepower went into trying to figure all of this stuff out. Yeah. But now like in my, at this point, I, I keep thinking I want to try to reconcile.

How do I reconcile with all the people and all the things and all the places? And how do I reconnect all of these things? All the many days and hours of neglecting our families and our relationships.

Yeah, no, I wasn't issued my publicist, though.

I missed that.

Hey.

I thought you would know the place.

Yeah. Not at Northwestern.

What did you go to college for? social policy, education and social policy.

No.

I enjoyed it a lot.

Yeah. Well, it's a different lens. It would be, it'd be a lot more anxiety in it for sure. Right. And be a whole lot of questions of what, what do you add? What do you not add?

What can I add? What can I say? Um, so it gives you a little bit more leeway for sure. Um, but you also can take, you know, the nice thing about this is you can, instead of it making it, you know, be the main character, you can take aspects of your life and other people's lives and just make them a separate character.

Right. So you can still tell the same story and have that same lesson and have all of that in the book as part of the message, but it's just created into somebody else. Right. So you can pull all of these sources of knowledge and experiences and put them in one book and just have it should be eight different characters. And they're all going through similar things.

And you're still telling the same story. So it's a, I mean, it's just a unique gift to be able to do it that way.

But everything you write, though, is a mirror of what you are. To some degree, for sure. You're projecting that onto the paper always. So there's always that experience. How long did it take you guys to write it? Which is very cathartic. It took us about a year. OK. About a year.

I think once we really sat down and decided this is what we're doing and this is how we're going to go about it, it was about a year's time. But when you're working with two people, it's more challenging. A lot of passing the manuscript. They call them manuscripts, which is kind of cool back and forth. A lot of interviews. We did some travel and research.

The theater is from Aurora.

That's what I was thinking, actually. It's like an exact mock-up. Yeah.

What do you think in comparison to the other books with this one? When we finished the original, it was 568 pages long. How many words?

I really fucked up on my last one.

You're almost there, Tom.

Well... I've already decided I'm not bull riding. I don't know where they keep their bulls.

How do you even decide that that's something that we were going to do as humans? Like, let's ride that. You know the answer to that.

Do you see that thing over there? Yeah. Let's ride it. Let's see if we can ride it.

Interesting, yeah.

Yeah. And this is James's writing genius. Yeah. He twists the timeline up. So we go back and forth. It's like a Pulp Fiction storyline. Those are the best stories to me anyway.

That's it, right? So he develops all these storylines, right? When I first looked at it and we talked about it, I was like, there's no way we're going to make this work, right? It seemed way too complicated for my little brain. But I'm learning. James knows what he's doing and these are things that actually can happen.

But you look at your reading. Just fake like you died.

Yeah, that's the only one that I could even think of might work. You could probably fake death on the O course, but they're just going to leave you out there.

Everything that we cut out of the first book.

Which fortunately is about 200 pages worth of stuff. Oh, damn. Okay. That's nice. Yeah, it is nice.

That's right. Yep. A couple of explosions and we should be good. I think we, six months.

Isn't that cool? Yeah. I don't know. I couldn't. I know it turns into a real job at some point.

Testing gravity? There's got to be some great lessons to be taught.

He, and I think 12 months is his schedule.

Yeah, I think we would do whatever a publisher thought was necessary. Could we do 12 months a book? Yes, I think so.

I don't know. That's a good answer. That's what I say with my life, too. I really don't know. I don't know what I'm going to do when I grow up. I probably won't grow up, so I don't know if I'll ever know. Okay. What are you doing professionally outside of writing now? I started a school. Okay. So I think I'll continue to grow this. It's a micro school.

Do you feel like you can see how each of your kids are a variation of you? I mean, they make up a combined total. They make up you. But in each category, something even better. Something even... I see my deficiencies in them.

It's a nature-based, learner-driven micro school. So essentially we spend all day outdoors as much as possible. I like it. So I think we're going to grow that. We're in our second school year and we just opened enrollment. We're looking at opening almost double. So we had about 30 kids this year. Awesome. So we're considering doubling that for next year if we can get the families in.

And this is obviously geographically located where you live. It's in Crown Point. Yeah, it's on some property that I have in Crown Point, Indiana.

Yes, take a look. Wonder Academy NWI. Wonder Academy, Northwest Indiana.

Their social media presence is real good. There's a website too. But please do check that out. I mean, it's just so cool, right? These kids yesterday, they, yeah, that's it. Yes. Accept those cookies, Michael. Accept them. Yeah, this is it. So that's the ranch. That's the Ruby Ranch there. That's a little property that I bought when I was getting out.

Back in 2014, and we just started turning it into a homestead. I was going to live there, but I got divorced and it didn't work out that way. I did live in the barn though for a while. That was probably fun.

Actually, it actually was really fun. I regret ever leaving there now. Keep scrolling down, Michael. These are the girls here. Nice. They're the founders, three girl founders. They were looking for a place to do a school.

I don't do websites, man. But I will give them that feedback. See the difference between the two? Look at this. Yeah, no kidding. Let's see. Let's see. Hold on here. Keep going. I don't think I'm on this page. But yes, I don't wonder. I'm just worried about my resolution now.

We don't need to look at it. I want you just to wonder for the rest of the day. I don't get haunted all that much anymore. So like yesterday they- I love these concepts though. Yesterday they made sourdough bread in a Dutch oven over the fire. Nice. That was the lesson for the day. And then they broke bread and they ended their day. I love the concept.

Like my daughter.

And if you see on the social, they show some videos of these experiences. These kids just love, absolutely love their day. They love school. They love being there. It feels like a different experience of education than what we probably got inside of a cubicle classroom.

And it shows in the way these kids behave. It shows in their enjoyment. So that's what we're working on now. That's something I'm doing now. I do some Airbnbs. I have a few properties that we Airbnb. I'm trying to figure out how. We have four veteran families, kids that go to our school that are veterans. And this is all private funded, so we don't get any money from tax dollars.

So it's $7,000 a student. So I'm really working on developing a scholarship for veteran families to put their kids in the school. That's one thing I'm working on. I have a little 501c3, the Frogman Foundation.

You know, we don't do very much yet, but I'd love to incorporate programs for transition and veterans and their families and giving them a few opportunities to learn some, you know, coping mechanisms and ways of dealing with PTSD, et cetera. You know, those kind of sort of things like. You know, when I got out and I got divorced, my life pretty much went to total and absolute shit.

It was the hardest, worst experience of my life, harder than buds and anything else. I say the exact same thing. Oh my God. Even just thinking about it now, it gives me a little bit of, you know, I mean, I've... It was the most accurate depth and sounding of who I was as a person that I've ever experienced. I mean... Somehow I am on the other side.

I don't know how, but I did not think I was going to survive that. I thought I was going to die as well. So I went inside out. I was burning.

Yeah.

The first thing that jumps to my mind, I'm trying to figure out this idea of how can I have the most impact but do the least amount of work? The most impact, but the least.

Yes. Isn't it? That's the master key. Right. And how can I, you know, where can I influence in whatever avenue that I decide to go in, but I have to maintain my own, you know, personal energy. Right. So I can only put so much in, but I still want to get the most out of it. And I want it to be beneficial for everyone. Yeah.

Um, so I may not be able to have the most impact most, but relatively like what's the most I can have. Yeah.

So, I mean, I ha I have a hundred hobbies, things that I love to do. Which one challenges you the most? Well, I love to snowboard, right? And I love mountain climbing.

So those two are probably my favorite. The hardest part about it is just finding time to go do it. So that's part of the challenge, right? And so I'm looking at my entire life, like how can I still be present with my family and my kids, but still go and do these things that require me to get in an airplane, fly, spend three days up in the mountains and then come back.

But you got to do those things too. So, you know, figuring out how do I balance all of these things? I mean, that's really the task now. can I enjoy, can I have businesses? Can I, you know, write books with guys? And that's what, I mean, I had to partner with somebody to be able to do these smarts. I mean, there's just no way around it.

I'm not going to sit down and write the book and edit it and send it to friends and reedit it. And, you know, it's just not going to happen all by myself. So if we're going to do this, I need somebody that is brilliant. That's motivated. That's an awesome, great guy that we have a great relationship with and he wants to do it and loves to do it. And he's a

you know, this is his, this is his talent. Um, how do we, you know, how do we work together to do this? So that's kind of, you know, if you, you know, whatever it is that I'm trying to kind of work towards, it's like putting together great teams like these three girls, right? They are, they're the genius in this whole school process.

I mean, you look at your life. I mean, you've done some ridiculously amazing things. I don't describe it that way. I know you don't see it that way, but that's kind of one of the issues with guys like us. We don't really see it that way. Do you know what's interesting about that though?

I'm kind of like a, I don't know, like a facilitator, caretaker of the land, you know? Right. And so giving and finding ways to make it happen. Um, So that's, you know, that's what that looks like. And I get bored easy. So, so, you know, we, we get stuff done and we make it happen. Cause you're still looking for problems. And then I'm looking for something else.

Or, or it's looking for me.

It's right.

I don't think you're ever going to.

Exactly.

That's how I have to do it too.

I know. That's what my calendar suddenly looks like now too.

It's gotten out of control.

Why did we have to start getting like that? There was a time where I could just go. I mean, I could probably train four or six hours a day.

And feel like you were still a lazy piece of shit. Yeah, those days are gone. And still look in the mirror and go, come on, Tom. I know those days are so long gone. It's about optimizing now. Yes. Who'd you guys publish with?

Chris Schaefer is the owner, and I think he was a Green Beret. Is that right? Am I right? Ranger. Ranger. Okay.

I know.

Yeah.

Well, it was February 7th. February 7th. Okay. Our first event and it's on sale now. Awesome. Pre-sales over.

Oh my God.

Deal.

Deal. I feel like we can go a lot longer too.

Yeah.

How hard is it for that? That's sort of like, I don't want, oh, you're fine with them. At this point, I'm just laughing, man. I have almost no control.

Cool, man. Thanks, James. That's awesome. Well, our friendship has really grown a lot and I do appreciate that. I appreciate our relationship. Thanks, man.

It's been good. It's been great. I mean, we became friends in two of our hardest times of our lives. I was getting divorced and he lost his wife. And we stayed buddies through that. That's about as bad as it's going to get, I think. Yeah. Rough times. Yeah. So I really love that. That's part of the story too.

Well, I mean, come on, look at this guy. What's not to love? I'm going to get one of those hats immediately. I love the most interesting people that there are. Oh, of course. It's the spice of life. Dude, it is so great. There's no way I was going to let this guy out of it. Love it, man. Yeah, the book's really cool. And it does, it tells a cool story. And

But it just talks about, everybody's so much more than they think they are. And people are gonna try to tell you all the time who you are, what you are, what you can do, where your limits are. And the only way you'll ever know the difference, because that's the natural state of the psyche.

And the only way you'll know the difference is if you just start one thing at a time, stepping outside of that. Challenge something. Go for it. But you got to do it. You just got to take the step and just go. Go, go. You'll figure it out. The path will be laid out in front of you as you go. It's a tough concept to grasp. People want the path before they start. You just got to take the step.

Yeah, I agree. You're not going to see the next step. You just take it. You just take it. Be confident. Trust yourself. Believe in yourself. It'll be all right.

I really thought that I was getting one over on you guys. Do you forget that we were students too?

From yourselves. Okay.

That is funny. I really thought that I had a great thing going. We know. It actually did work though. We know. It still does work even though it wasn't inaccurate.

How, um, Oh, you didn't do first phase. Um, who was the, um, who's the instructor that, uh, got that, that got caught for, was in trouble for abusing prisoners in Abu Ghraib. Do you remember? No.

No. Okay. I figured that would have happened long before you got there as an instructor. I was trying to think of my most memorable instructor from first phase.

I mean, it's totally possible. And then instructor Kraft was my second phase. Yep. You were too. Yep. And Ledford. Yeah. Do you ever talk? Do you stay in contact at all?

Yeah. We're fine. Yeah.

We love each other.

Yeah. That was great. Thanks.

Thanks.

17 years. Yeah, I got medically retired. All the knuckleheads to learn something. Do you ever think like everything that we went through in our lives, we had to go through to learn the lessons and the skills to get us through what we're doing right now? I mean, there's no way I could have planned any of this.

I do think about that, but I also wonder... I could never have made my life to become where it is today, writing a book with this guy and talking about my life. And here I am with four kids.

I mean, could I have imagined that I'm now, my life revolves around spending time with my kids, giving them the opportunities, watching them grow, trying to do my best to give them the advice and the life that they need. And that's all I think about and do. And a little bit, a few things of my own on the side.

How did we decide that that was a great idea, right?

That's right. sitting in academia somewhere writing theories about stuff too. But then somebody's got to go live those theories too. You know, these concepts of how life ought to be, these philosophical concepts of the way to live. You know, the Stoics, it's a philosophy of life. Who's your favorite Stoic? Marcus Aurelius.