Jen Brister

So the one in 1517 is Francisco. Very bad, yes. Doesn't go well, everyone dies. 1518 is led by, I'm sorry, what's his name? Juan de Grijalva. Juan de Grijalva. Okay, so Juan goes out in 1518. And that fares a bit better because they meet the Aztecs. Yes. Nobody dies? Some people die. Some people die.

Oh my God, what a name, Elfgivu. And not only that, not having any knowledge about my own history, that is quite something. And now I'm half English and I'm half Spanish, so what I've realised is in the last episode I knew nothing about English history and today it'll be proven I know nothing about Spanish history. LAUGHTER

And then Velazquez goes, listen, third time lucky. Yeah. What do you reckon?

Yeah. So this is the third... Third time. Third time, and he's like, I've got a good feeling for you, Cortez. Yes, yes.

So how, whoa, but what about, so he's now, but he's going to have to come back. So when he comes back, is he just going to, just to let you know, I'm not listening to you anymore. I mean, how does that work? So he's not coming back.

Do you think Elon Musk read this letter and went, this guy sounds like someone I need to model myself on? So... Because I was going to ask you, why on earth, if you have founded a town and you have had a successful expedition, isn't it that you want to go back to Spain with all of this glory and go, look at me, I did this, I've got a town, I've created this, I'm the big guy, not this guy.

and mexican history mexican history even less okay do you know the name cortez i feel like he's a fairly big name from history i recognized the name cortez but it wasn't and i thought i don't know who is this chap and it was after i i did a cursory google amy i hope you won't mind but i went oh that guy yeah yeah so i do unlike last time i was on the podcast where i had

Why would you burn all your boats to stay there?

I mean, that is upsetting.

Because then she can translate anything in any which way she can. Once, in a way. Like, oh yeah, he said this. Did he?

absolutely no knowledge at all of what was going on i would say i have three and a half percent more knowledge on this particular subject so yeah guys wait to be wowed so what do you know

So she understands the etiquette of the Spanish and she also understands the etiquette of the Mayan. Is it the Mayan people? The other Nawa people.

going around telling people what to do. Oh, you can do that and I'll do that. And it's like, why don't they, the Tottenhacks and the Mayans and everybody, they get together and go, let's just kill these Spanish guys because they are a pain in the butt. And they keep talking about some guy called Jesus. I don't know who he is. What do you say?

I mean, it seems like somebody missed a trick very early on.

PR is important.

You've got to keep on top of that sort of thing.

Wait, wait, sorry. LAUGHTER Yeah, I feel like we've gone... And then there was a massacre. So the Spanish army have arrived.

Yeah, he's going, right, you guys join me. And they're like, love to.

Yeah, look, I mean, we're loaded. Why would you stick with the Velazquez guy?

Oh, yes, I do know who he is. Look at me. One point already. Well done.

Oh, my. This Cortez guy.

It's quite interesting because I didn't know, and this makes a lot of sense, that the Spanish had allies amongst other indigenous communities or people. I just assumed that all of the Aztecs were murdered by the conquistadors, like the Spanish. But they actually got help.

And she was so young. It's like she really only, in that whole period, was around for a decade. And within that decade, she had such a huge influence. I think also when you're a young woman and you've got literally no agency, you grab it where you can, don't you? You do. Yeah. How does history view her? Do historians view her kindly?

There's absolutely no evidence of that at all. So for a long time, Cortez was viewed favourably for many centuries and would have been lauded and applauded.

Wait a second, but that doesn't make any sense. He just said, don't do it, because that goes against our values. But when you come back, that'll be your reward, baby. Yeah, it's OK if the king gives them out, but nobody else. Also, it's not actually slavery they have a problem with. It's, like, who can give out slaves. Oh, these guys.

I mean... I mean, I'm not Miss Marple, but I can... I don't know, Jen. Do you know what I mean? I'm feeling that maybe we can pretty much guarantee he killed her. And his motive for killing her was like, oh, you're just wanging on too much. Or I just want to, I haven't seen you for however many years and now I just want to live my life.

You're dragging me back.

All of the men in this entire historical period... Jen, you're holding your eyes like you've got a migraine. Absolutely appalling human beings. And typically, once again, there is one woman and she's the one that is vilified. Melinsin. Well, two women, one of whom's murdered and the other one... One of the many Catalinas. It's absolutely incredible.

So, despite us knowing all of this, Cortez is a hero. Yes.

I wasn't going to say it, Greg, but I'm glad you did.

It is quite the story. It's quite a sad story. It's tragic, really. There's no part of it that isn't... I mean, listen, comedy corner here, but it's pretty hard to find any light in that shade. He is genuinely one of the most unpleasant men in history, I would say. He's a truly awful human being. And I'm glad he shat himself today. LAUGHTER I hope it came out of both ends for hours.

He's a horrible, horrible man. And sure, Melinda, by proxy, you could say, yeah, but, you know, she was no saint either. And that is absolutely true. But the power dynamic there was so, you know, you can't compare the two. You're looking at a young girl who was enslaved and was trying to survive.

And she wasn't to know how it was going to turn out, you know, that it was going to end up being some sort of genocidal mania. And then this Cortez guy was just like total narcissist psychopath. Good guy. Good guy. Good guy.

That's like three too many names, surely.

It's really interesting that what you said, though, about her being scapegoated and that the indigenous allies weren't blamed because it was a civil war. Why should she have any? Why would she support the Aztecs? They enslaved her. She's, you know, she couldn't possibly blame her, I don't think. I actually, I'm team Melinsin.

I'm sure I didn't turn out great in the long term, but I think she did what she had to do to survive. So what do you know now?

No, not really. No, I'm not feeling confident at all. There's so much detail.

Look at this. Oh, I've missed a page. No, I've taken way too many notes and now I feel completely overwhelmed.

I have. I have, and most of it, I can't read my own writing, but let's try it.

I've already fallen at the first hurdle. Does it come from... What was the Spanish name? Oh, no.

Marina.

Because he had slept with his fiancée and then ditched her.

Oh, hang on. Just give me a second. I've got like 600 notes here, so we'll get there. Well, he's promoted... No, hang on. Cortez has gone without him, without his approval. Yeah, he's gone rogue. So he's gone rogue. So he hasn't got Velasquez's permission.

Yes, he's a fugitive. This is the start of his fugitive journey.

He is, oh no, she is one of 20 girls that is given to the conquistadors as a gift from the Aztecs.

Oh, from the Maya. Yeah, well done, excellent.

She was strangled to death by her husband.

Yes, she sneezed. He was worried about her. He caught her by the neck and she died.

Slavery.

Technically not slavery because you can't enslave Christians. Yes, that's right.

Is it Montezuma? It is.

Oh, come on.

Here we go. The prize is mine.

Do you want me to guess? Yeah, go on. So he's born in 1485, so in 1492 he is, what, seven?

So he is sent away. That's a good guess. He's sent away to school.

Right, so I was going to ask you to contextualise Columbus in this. OK, go on.

And murdering people.

Yeah, OK. That sounds very familiar. Yeah. And the indigenous people that lived in Haiti and in the Dominican Republic, would they have had any sort of relation to the Incas? Like, Mexico's not that far away.

You pop out there to talk about Jesus Christ and before you know it, you've got, you know, hundreds of thousands of slaves. Yes.

Okay. So Melinston, she is Nawa. She's not my own. She's not Aztec. Yes, no.

Oh, well... You've said that Cortés is very ambitious. He probably realises that if he's going to promote himself, he probably needs Diego Velázquez's job at the bare minimum, or at least to get rid of him so that he can have more control, more authority. I don't know.

Oh my goodness, there's always a lady.

So he asks for Catalina's hand in marriage so that he can sleep with her. And then goes, do you know what? I'm not into this anymore. I've slept with you, but I actually don't want to do this engagement. And so then Velasquez goes, oh, you can't do that. So I'm going to defend her sister's honour. Yes. Yes. And now I'm going to, what, have a duel?

That is the most romantic thing I've ever heard. What a wonderful rom-com. That's the happy ending we were all looking for. Come on, Richard Curtis, pull your finger out.

I love you maybe, probably. I don't know.

It's other names.

He gets a nice... Oh, it's a happy ending for the good guy.