Jerod Santo

RedMonk recently did their rankings this year, top 20 languages. in use in industry, according to their tech, you know, their methodologies. I'm not sure what the methodologies are, but you got jobs for number one and then TypeScript is down there at five or six. And so imagine how number one, number one gets, if you just combine those two.

So going back to Deno as different from Node from this project, we'll definitely get to Deno too, so bear with me. But here's a thought that I had. Deno is different insofar as it's a startup, right? This is a business, and that's different and new. That constraint informs a lot of decisions, I'm sure. How has that constraint helped Deno as a project over the seven years of its inception?

What up, nerds? I'm Jared, and you are listening to The Change Log, where each week we sit down with the hackers, the leaders, and the innovators of the software world to pick their brains, to learn from their mistakes, to get inspired by their accomplishments, and to have a lot of fun along the way.

Is that no re-license thing, is that formalized in any way? I mean, I feel like there should be some sort of like no rug pull clause somewhere or somehow in a way that you can't just say, well, I, Ryan Dahl, say that it's never going to happen. You're like, sure, that's great.

But then what happens if somebody else runs the company or you get, I'm sure there's a board of directors, maybe you get excised as the CEO and the next guy comes in and says, well, we're re-licensing to Fair Source or something else.

So, yeah, I mean, well, you haven't pulled the mask off and said muahaha in the last seven years. So I expect, you know, more of the same in terms of, ah, I'm now relicensing and everything I do in the future is going to go against everything I've said in the past. It's just, there's, there's good intentions. And then we have

over time change in organizational structures, it seems that usually changes what ultimately leads to a relicensing in the future. So I'm always curious if people have thought about how to somehow just formalize their intentions, maybe even if just saying out loud is sometimes all you can do.

Yeah, I do think that's the best model so far for the style of software that you're building. Of course, different types of open source, I think, lend themselves to different models.

Well, you know, the old saying, no good deed goes unpunished and it's doubly true on the internet. I mean, you are going to be criticized if you go left and you're gonna be criticized if you go right. And that's just kind of how it works.

All right, let's talk Deno 2. You said you guys kind of agonized over when you could call it a 2. This is always a hard problem, even for the folks who are trying to semver their projects, which is usually libraries, not so much runtimes. But hard problem. What's a major? What's a minor? Is this a patch? Of course, most majors in these cases are for...

uh, marketing purposes, which I think is totally fine. You got to get attention on what you've been up to and you can't just simply release things all the time and people just don't pay attention. So usually a 2.0 comes with it, a whole bunch of stuff. This one certainly does. You want to iterate over a few of the high points and we'll talk about them.

Very cool. JSR is very interesting because the history of NPM is fraught with costs. It was a cost center. Effectively, it was infrastructure for all of us web developers and NPM Inc or whatever. I think that's what it is. NPM Inc became the entity that had to bear the burden of that cost of just hosting millions and millions and maybe trillions of downloads over the years.

And so JSR, I assume also must cost some money to run. How are you guys doing that? How's it working?

is it the kind of thing where you would write a package and you would maybe put it on both registries for in the meantime, or does it matter? Like if I was going to author something, maybe I'd already know how to do all the crazy NPM things you have to do. Is it, I just post them both. Do I post a JSR? How does it, how do you suggest?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, totally. I agree with that. So as an author, I totally understand why JSR would be cool, especially if I'm an author of a package and I don't have all of the NPM know-how. As an end user who just has a package JSON in my Deno app or something, like why... does JSR help me or does it matter if I'm NPM installing JSR?

all right i am here with ryan doll creator of node and more recently but not that recently it turns out dino what's up ryan hey how's it going it's going well thanks for joining me you know i was just on youtube checking out some of the node documentaries i think honeypot put up a new one that's a little bit shorter about the origins of dino

That's awesome. And JSR modules don't lock you into Deno. Like you can use it in Node, you can use it in other things, right?

So I'm here looking at a node server file I have on my machine that has import Fastify, import Puppeteer, and import AWS SDK. At this point with Deno 2, I could just Deno run this sucker, you think?

That's really exciting.

I was thinking about trying it. Well, I don't have Deno 2 on this machine. I still have Deno 1. Can I just, I probably can't brew install.

This Deno was built without the upgrade feature. Please upgrade. That probably because I brew installed it.

I will post later whether or not it works. We will not take this long of a diversion, unless you're super interested in it.

Uh, okay. Let's try it. How do I install a VO year? Just, you know, dot land and follow the.

Now, if I already have it installed via brew, are we going to have any issues or it's going to be all good?

All right. So I just got Dino version one, not four, six dot three. So now I run Dino upgrade.

right so dino run server uh you you can just do dino task maybe you have some scripts in there in your package json yeah i just have just a start script this is a pretty simple thing besides the fact that it has puppeteer which immediately makes it not simple task start node server.js well it's running so my i guess my task says node so is it running node now

Yes.

I see the task, Deno task start. I don't see any sub-processes.

I don't have a ps3 command. Is that argument to ps?

I just have the one. I just have dino task start. And that's the only dino process? Oh, no, auto update homebrew. Stop, stop, stop. Yeah, exactly. Hold on. Let me go this direction. Oh, I got a bunch of node tasks running. Apparently, Adobe Creative Cloud is running Node. Maybe it just happened to be a match. This is getting nasty. Let's try it this way. Can I do dino run server.js?

And I was looking like 600,000 people watched the Node.js documentary. I think the new one has thousands as well. And I wondered, did you ever think this would happen to you? Like just for slinging some C++ code and putting your ideas out there, like you're kind of a internet celebrity now.

Is dino run a thing? Yeah. Yeah, let's just try that because then we're guaranteed to use dino, right?

I'm going to say allow all because I'm living dangerously. I'm allowing sys. I'm allowing read. I'm allowing write. I'm allowing run. I'm allowing net. Yeah. Hey, it is serving on port 3000. It works. Congrats.

For me, that was relatively simple. I'm sure for you and your team, that was a huge lift. Super, super huge lift.

That's exciting. I mean, as a fellow idealist slash purist, like part of me dies as you talk about this, but part of me actually is also excited because I'm way more likely to use this. Some of this NPM support has been there for a while now.

Well, well-deserved. And of course, not just yourself, hundreds, scores of people working on Node over the years. And of course, Dino, you are primary on Dino, but a team over there as well. And gosh, I said not too recently because you've been working on Dino a long time now. Hasn't it been like six or seven years?

That's really cool that you've been able to architect it in such a way that is extensible like that and allows people. I mean, talk about, again, meeting people where they are. There are people that appreciate those lower levels and they can use those open source projects to their own benefit.

And that's really cool and allows you to continue to take pride in it and to usher things forward while still supporting the things that you have to support in order to bring people forward. along with you. You mentioned serverless computing.

I think last time you were on the show, which I guess was two years ago now, we were talking about Winter CG and some of the efforts between you all and Cloudflare to kind of formalize a spec around serverless runtimes. I haven't really kept up with that. Is that something that's continued to move forward? Is there progress there? Is it bearing fruit, this effort to create these specs?

Fair enough. As you talked about these different layers, One of the more interesting features I think you have added, which for me as a person who's been in the open source world for a long time and cares about sustainability and talks about licenses, you know, real kind of wonky in these areas. DenoKV was very interesting to me because it's kind of like where A, it's open source.

This is a key value store built right into Deno and has a potential, I guess, upgrade path to Deno, the service, you know, Deno, the hosted stuff. where that database can be hosted by you all for pay. But then also you don't have to do that. And this is like one of those areas, again, where I wouldn't call this, this is not open core. I don't think so. It's a hosted service.

But it's like that weird connection point of like, well, where does the... runtime stop and the product begin. And I'm just curious your thoughts through that, because I'm sure you thought deeply about it as you guys designed it.

open core concerns or or incentive concerns are would be addressed by by kind of decoupling them it also makes the engineering effort a bit easier i guess yeah yeah that's interesting you say that because that was my initial reaction when it first came out i think we talked about it on the show and i was like it's cool it's interesting it seems experimental Would I use it? I don't know.

It seems kind of strange that it's like a top-level global inside of the runtime. Like, why is this not just a package? It makes sense. You're saying, you know, technically it's probably easier for you guys, especially when you're experimenting with a new feature, just like, well, we're just going to drop it in right here because that's the easiest button.

On this episode, I'm joined by Ryan Dahl, creator of Node.js and Deno, his second attempt to level up the world by leveling up JavaScript developers all around the world. We cover a lot of ground. I ask Ryan, why not try to fix or fork Node instead of starting fresh? How Deno, the open source project, can avoid the all too common rug pull not cool scenario?

Maybe not an easy button, but the easiest button and see how it works out. So, I mean, that's fascinating that you've kind of thought, well, maybe it makes more sense just as a package versus a built-in thing.

Yeah. And we are on the edge of Deno 2 now. So you're going to have an official 2.0 launch pending coming very, very soon. It's in a release candidate. So I'm sure people can get out there and use it right now today, right?

And what's interesting is that Node recently added the experimental SQLite support. And I thought, was that maybe, again, you being their research arm, maybe they're like, wow, putting a key value store in there, we could just drop SQLite in there and you'd give more power than a key value store. But I don't know if they were inspired by you or if not simultaneous invention.

Oh, does Bunn have a direct SQLite embedded thing? Yeah. Gotcha.

Yeah, that's cool. So much. I love the competition and the spirit of innovation and like the fact that all these ideas are going back and forth and different directions. I think the whole community really benefits when these things happen.

100%. Do you guys have any other experiments in the works? Anything you're working on that you're excited about testing out, whether it's, you know, monetization or otherwise, like cool new stuff that Dino's working on?

Okay, what about non-commercial or the things that like in the open source side that are exciting to you? Maybe after the 2.0 gets finalized and you're working on what's next.

So you are obviously in the code in the decision making process, like you are still rocking your code editor on a daily basis, right? Like you're still writing code?

I mean, are you fighting that off? Are you embracing it? What's your stance on it?

Sure. Well, you're at least in the weeds of the decision-making with the architecture and the direction of the project. So, I mean, it sounds like you are very well versed in where Deno is headed, not just generally speaking as a business or as open source project, but like in the technical details of the decision-making process, whether or not you're actually coding up the functions or not. Yeah.

Have you ever considered reorganizing the company a little bit? Maybe bring on a CEO or somebody and then just stay in IC? Is that something that's attractive to you or do you just think that you need to be at the helm?

Yeah. Wear whatever hats are necessary. What surprised you in that arena in terms of things you weren't necessarily good at or hadn't done previously? Is the sales process harder than you thought? Is it easier? What's been a surprise in this new role?

The cool thing about Deno and its origin was these 10 mistakes I made with Node and that conference talk like you mentioned. And then this was your second effort to rearrange the letters, start fresh, fix some of those mistakes. But you've been working on Deno now for seven years.

I'm sure it is. In that sense, how do you make those decisions? Like the focus of, no, we're not going to go right. We're going to go left. And we're all going to like when it comes down to it, is it intuition? Is it data? Do you ask the people around you? Like, how do you make the call of this is what we're focusing on?

Well, on the note of leveling up JavaScript, let's close on this. An open call, a letter to Oracle, of all people, if you can consider Oracle a person.

About JavaScript, not the programming language, but the word JavaScript that represents the programming language, which really is kind of belongs to the world at this point. However, the trademark... Is it the word trademark? Yes, the trademark belongs to Oracle. If you go to javascript.tm, it says Oracle, it's time to free JavaScript. So this is an open letter, I think.

Was this penned by you or just signed first by you? Tell us the story here. Was this your idea? This is a great idea.

And so I'm not saying there should be a third effort, but like, are there things you've learned about Deno or do you have Deno regrets at this point? It's been long enough. Everybody has regrets, right? Yeah.

Very nice. Well, this is very well written. You go through it and you describe specifically how they have abandoned this trademark through non-use. And the call to action at the bottom says, if you agree with us, you are encouraged to sign this open letter below. Your support will help raise awareness and add weight to this cause. As of the time of us recording, 9,924.

It was three, but I signed it just before we hopped on the call. Very easy, just with your GitHub profile. I signed that sucker. Have lended their name to this open letter, including... folks like Brendan Eich, creator of JavaScript, Rich Harris, creator of Svelte, Isaac Schluter, creator of NPM, Firas Aboukadej, CEO of Socket, some big names. Of course, you're on at the top there.

So people are very invested in

javascript have signed this thing so to our listener if you are also so inclined to get behind ryan's open letter go sign that and what's the next step after this you're actually going to start the legal process are you raising money do you have enough money are there are there pro bono javascript lawyers out there that who might represent you yeah we're we we are looking for legal help so if anybody listening is an ip lawyer and

100% drew well. That URL is javascript.tm. We will drop it in the show notes for easy clicking through and lending your name if you feel so inclined. Ryan, thank you so much for sitting down with me, all the hard work you've been doing on this project over the last seven years, probably at least seven more years ahead of you. I mean, it sounds like you're in it for the long haul.

As a web worker and as a web denizen, I appreciate you trying to make JavaScript and the web a better place. Just keep leveling it up. And we appreciate you. Thanks so much. So I have a little secret for you. This conversation was originally recorded for JS Party. In fact, we are shipping it to the JS Party feed as well.

So if you listen to both pods or subscribe to our master feed and you see it twice, that is not a mistake. We just thought both audiences would get a lot out of this one. If you don't listen to JS Party, but you enjoy the changelog and want to hear more of me interviewing folks, chatting about web development, playing silly games, stuff like that, maybe give JS Party a listen.

Even if you don't write JavaScript, you can probably get a lot out of that show. I know I do. Oh, and this is it, the last week in September, which means it's your last chance to get some sweet, sweet ChangeLog stickers for $0. All it costs you is one thoughtful five-star review or blog post. We do accept blog posts. Just send proof of your review to stickers.

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We love that you choose to spend time with us each week. That is all for now, but we'll talk to you again on Changelog and Friends with special guest Nick Nisi on Friday.

So you initially started with a clean cut from NPM as well with your own URL based imports. And you basically had to do that stuff because there's so much, like you said, there's extant code out there. There's packages that you just don't want to have to re-implement. on the Deno side, because let's be realistic.

I mean, when Node came out, I remember that first call for contributors that you gave, and it was like, come create things for Node.js because it was available for use, but there was no standard library, there was no

code there to use and people did it was amazing i mean it was like the frontier of web development uh server-side was make a node package for this i mean the person who made the grpc package initially of course that was probably years later i'm not sure when grpc became interesting to folks but that person it was greenfield and they were probably highly motivated to do that but nowadays it's like well i already have node i have a grpc over here in npm

It's now a barrier to Deno, right? It's no longer Greenfield. It's like, do I want to rewrite this or port it over? And so when did you guys make that call? And was that a tough one to finally, it's a pragmatic choice. Like you have to kind of ditch a little bit of the pure idealism of the fresh start, right?

what's new in dino 2 and their pragmatic decision to support npm we talk jsr we talk dino kv and sqlite we even talk about ryan's open letter to oracle and his attempt to free the unused javascript trademark from the giant's clutches but first a thank you to our partners at fly.io over 3 million apps have launched on fly including ours and you can too in five minutes or less Learn how at fly.io.

Yeah, exactly. And you can't, you have to meet people where they are, you know, for them to actually benefit because you're trying to make software that's A, used by the mass developers and B, has to then be useful to all of them or many of them. You're not happy, like you said, writing a niche runtime that 500 people use.

Back in the day, go back seven years, I know you had this initial idea and it was like, I think in that initial speech you said that Node kind of offended some of your sensibilities over time. And I know there's a lot of personal history there and there's job-related stuff and lots of baggage there, just mental baggage. I'm sure it was just more fun to start fresh with something else.

But now that you're competing with your previous creation in terms of getting people to use Deno and That's probably an uphill battle because Node is established and it's like the de facto. And it's probably hard to move certain people.

Is there an alternate world where instead of starting fresh that you just said, like, I'm either going to fork Node and start from there and change these things or I'm going to rejoin the Node technical steering committee and like... I don't know if that could have even happened, but like moved it in a direction because then you wouldn't have to regain all these users.

You'd have all the millions of users already.

Okay, Ryan Dahl on the changelog. Let's do this.

Good point. I mean, I think the autonomy and the ability to move quickly and not have to convince others of your ideas is to me highly desirable in any software project. So I 100% understand why you went that way. And your take on JavaScript is on point. There's been two recent rankings released, one from IEEE Spectrum.

which had JS, I think it was one or two, maybe Python was one, JavaScript was two, in terms of surveyed from their readership. But then TypeScript was like five or six. So if you combine those two, which I mean, come on, you might as well just combine those two, cleared them one. And so there's academia right there. And then you go to industry.

So you and I both agree that AI creating new proteins sounds like something that they would be doing with it. Totally plausible, yeah. What about AI creating a new color? Totally plausible. How so? Don't all colors exist and they just need to be... Hex coded? Just need to be discovered.

The train is a lie. All right, so Adam's going with train. I'm going with color. Matt, is there some sort of like a prelude song that you'd play on the way up to this? Yeah, probably. I would have thought so.

No, because it's faster than sound. Yeah, exactly. It beats the sound to you. That's actually, I don't believe so. I think you would still hear it coming. I was just joking. I also think you'll hear it.

There's weird physics around that, right? Like, you know, if you're in a moving vehicle and you throw a baseball up in the air and you can catch it, but then if you throw it out of it, then it's still travel. I don't know how it works, but like you start to break your brain thinking about that. Wind resistance there, friction elsewhere.

There's inertia, there's wind resistance, there's lots of things going on.

yeah because the ball is traveling at that speed as well relative to you so you can right it's its starting place is already that speed yeah it's already going dead fast even though but you don't notice it like much like us we're like turning around on this globe at like how many miles per hour but we have no idea yeah seven i think it was seven miles per hour we're traveling around the world oh that's not that fast oh one day per hour no one hour per hour oh yeah

Finally, I landed on something closely correlated and true. Okay, I have my two truths and a lie. Okay. And let's see if you all can guess which one is the lie. Number one. Now, these are going to read more like headlines because, you know, I follow directions around here. But that's neither here nor there. Number one. As TikTok ban looms, Meta is sponsoring TikTok posts that encourage U.S.

users to migrate to Instagram. That's number one.

Number two, developer fires entire team for AI now ends up searching for engineers on LinkedIn. Number three, Miyamoto's son. This is Nintendo's Miyamoto. Miyamoto's son was so bad at Super Mario 64 that he questioned his parenting. There you have it. Two truths and one lie. What are you guys thinking?

Well, you know headlines have skewed more conversation in the last five years.

As TikTok ban looms, Meta is sponsoring TikTok posts that encourage US users to migrate to Instagram. Number two, developer fires entire team for AI now ends up searching for engineers on LinkedIn. Number three, Miyamoto's son was so bad at Super Mario 64, he questioned his parenting.

Yeah, but which one is not true?

Miyamoto's son?

Well, you could read the rest of the article on techgig.com.

Because I got that headline from techgig.com. That is a true headline. You are both... Well, sorry. Oh, no. I foreshadowed. You are both incorrect. It's not Miyamoto's son. It's not LinkedIn. The lie... Is as TikTok ban looms, Meta is sponsoring TikTok posts that encourage US users to migrate to Instagram. I made that up. Wow. I think that could easily be true, right? Right.

Actually, it's kind of a good idea.

Maybe they are doing it, but no one wrote the headline.

Anyways, I feel bad for you guys. Like I just hoodwinked you. Yeah.

Honestly, Matt, when I tell people I feel bad when I'm beating them in a game, I'm not really feeling bad. I just say that because I just feel like it's the appropriate thing. Oh, that's sweet. So.

Finally, he gets one right. Okay, Adam, why don't you do your turn and share with us some truths and lies.

Read the false one first. You have to mix it up.

Welcome to Changelog and Friends, a weekly talk show about trailer spoilers. Thanks, as always, to our partners at Fly. Over 3 million apps have launched on Fly, the public cloud built for developers who ship. That's us, and that's you. Learn more at fly.io. Okay, let's talk.

Okay, okay. So can you say the middle one again, slime molds?

Don't know what one of them is. I don't either. I'm not sure what slime molds are. Like slime from Ghostbusters? Slime? Slimer. What do you think they got him in to help consult? I got headlines only. I got no context here, okay? These are headlines only. I'm just trying to figure out if it's real or not. If it's Ghostbusters based, I'm going to assume it's a lie.

Oh, he's going to give us details later. So that one, he's got an actual article. I've ruled it out. That's true. Which one's true? The slime molds.

That was a whole different one. You just changed the subject and then told us you had information.

That's kind of appropriate, isn't it?

Yes. Not even the save icon, is it, that? No, no, no. In fact... That won't work for you. How far does the 8-inch go back? Because I remember floppies, but I never used an 8-inch. It was always a 3.5-inch floppy disk.

That's true, but I think they got better at density or something. Yeah. You know, smaller storage space over time.

Just imagine what eight inch, five and a quarter, and three and a half looks like.

He said rock hard.

Difficult to digest. Us, nuclear arsenal relied on 8-inch floppy disks, the one on the far left. I think that's false. I think you made that up. I mean, 8-inch, but it's a nuclear arsenal. Not a nuclear power plant, but arsenal, like actually firing nukes. They have these antiquated systems though, don't they? And they don't change them. This is a tough one.

And so they're going to compete with NVIDIA like you're going to be doing inference on these things or something.

Well, I wrote off the slime molds because I think you were looking at the article or talking about it, which means I didn't think about it very critically. But I'm still thinking that that's true. Okay. The Raspberry Pi story is exactly the kind of story that you would make up.

so i'm leaning i would make up yeah for a game no yeah i mean for yeah not just for in life like the guy just okay but i'm not sure where you see a report on the u.s nuclear system and their floppies like to me that just seems like like is that a news is that a was that news recently

You're saying that was a headline from 2019.

Love it. I didn't know. Actually, I did know that you played piano because I think you sent me a few piano tunes throughout the days, but I kind of forgot.

Yeah, I just don't understand. Maybe there's like a FOIA request on the nukes.

The documentation on nukes. I can't confirm where I've gotten this information, okay? I just want to applaud you on your ability to put together three pretty good ones.

Whereas you didn't like mine, and I fooled you utterly. I'm liking yours. Matt, I feel like you're about to break into some sort of song. Please do.

Please stall for me.

I was thinking you'd write something about 8-inch floppies, but we can definitely move on.

Which one is the lie? If I metagame this and my goal is to win, I won the first round by guessing Matt's and Adam missing it. I won the second round by fooling both of you. And so if I merely tie in round three, I've kind of taken it all. So I'm going to go with Matt. I'm going to say the raspberry pie is false. You made that up. It's so plausible though, right? It's really good.

Yeah, it's really good.

Oh, to design it. See, I thought they were building it with slime molds. No one said it. To help design Tokyo's rail system. I know, but I didn't pay close enough attention.

That's what I was thinking.

Really?

Yeah, I think so. I'll concede those points.

They're going to hear this. Right, this is pretty much like market research for them.

Yeah, that's good. I think we should take a moment to mourn that eight inch floppy. Oh, it's happened. It's happened. Eight inch floppy disc.

Try it again.

It's a family show.

floppy disk manufacturer you know that that company that had the contract forever that they could just keep selling their floppy disks to the government at some astronomical price you know After probably 40 years of that one big contract, they finally had to stop printing money and get a real job.

That's a good question, because to a certain extent, it's like, well, I want to know how much you know about this craft, but also I want to know what you can do. And let's be honest, if you're going to be doing, you're going to be using some assistance.

So the eight inch floppy originally stored 80 kilobytes in 1971. And then it went up to 256, eventually maxing out at 1.2 megabytes. The five and a quarter introduced in 1976, single-sided, single density, 160K. And then they figured out double density, 360K. Eventually they did a double-sided double density, 720K. And then double-sided high density. 1.2 megabytes.

So they finally made their way back up to the eight inch. Maybe this is why the U S nuclear's are just like, we're cool with the eight inch man, three and a half inch introduced in 1980 started at seven 20 K double-sided high density, 1.44. That's the most common. And then extra high density, 2.88 megabytes.

And so why not just use the assistance while you're doing the interview? I guess I would leave it up to the interviewer. What would you do, Matt?

Yeah, we were there. I don't know if we're sure if we were there. in the building together, Adam, but I've been there. It's in the valley. In San Diego, right? I mean, San Jose. Yeah, it's called the Computer History Museum. Is that what it's called? It's really cool. I thought we were there together, Adam. Maybe I was there with somebody. Were we there together? Maybe we were. I think we were.

It must be ancient history then. Well, there is no ancient computer history because computers aren't ancient.

Yeah, if you go to computerhistory.org.

They have actually a pretty cool Instagram as well that I've checked out where they still post stuff regularly. And they have new stuff coming in. I'm trying to find the actual address of the place to confirm. You're saying it's in San Diego. It's in Mountain View. I think we're there together, Adam. Hmm. Mountain View, California.

That's what I can't remember. He said high stakes. Oh, wait, that still works.

Oh, wait, that's like a dispensary. Yeah, high stakes is where you go afterwards. Yeah. I did have some other Raspberry Pi lies. Okay, let's hear them. Do we need a theme tune for Raspberry Pi Lies? Raspberry Pi Lies writes itself.

How about A minor?

That's true.

The challenge with solar is you need so much surface area.

He just repeated exactly what you said, Jared. He did. He made me feel smart by just saying it back to me. Is that a trick of yours?

All right, you can have some of Matt's points.

Yeah. We should have prizes and then just give them to me at the end.

He makes it sound even better. It's like he one-ups me by just saying it back with his accent. Not fair, Matt. Not fair.

It'd be fun. Maybe I'll put him some applause and congratulations sounds. Maybe like that confetti, like the poosh. You know that one?

That's right.

Brought to you by, you know.

Or they could do the Charlie Brown parent thing. Like, you just are wah, wah, wah, wah. That would actually be pretty cool.

Yeah.

Like, next thing you know, like... Right, or bad marketing because people won't upgrade. They're just like, I want the Charlie Brown sound. That's right.

I know. Well, you're an idea guy.

One other thing we could talk about was just to throw some flowers at Matt, in addition to your amazing piano skills. I hear you recently won an award yourself, didn't you? I did, yeah. Can you tell us about this? Is this true or is it a lie?

I was going to have you tell the story and have Adam guess, but you've already ruined it. This is true.

Yeah, it's completely ruined. Go ahead, tell us the story.

It's a version of testifying. That is declaring, testifying. There's voided the answer. Cool. Well, you know, I've heard of it, Matt. Have you? Well, from you on GoTime.

Yeah. I mean, I'm a humanist, man. Okay. See, I feel like you're joining my team over here because I've been saying this for a while. Yeah, assisted is the way to be. I'm happy to have you. I think AI powered. I'm happy to have you. I think human plus AI equals better, but AI plus AI equals disaster.

Is that called shadowing or something like this? I don't know, honestly. Okay. It's like a Go Piccadilly or is this like a programming thing? It's a Go specific Piccadilly. Yeah.

I have no idea.

Oh, that's right. It's like a square. Yeah. Isn't it a square? No, it's a circus. What's a circus? A circus is where the elephants are. Yeah. So there's a circus in London called Piccadilly. Piccadilly. And this is where like elephants stand on their two heels and then lions jump through. Yeah. It's a very popular tourist attraction.

I mean, I'll just say the US audience here, we don't know what a circus is unless it's, you know, Barnum and Bailey's.

That's right. So you're not doing a very good job of explaining why Piccadilly is a circus.

You also call it a place.

So we're very confused. Adam, are you confused? I'm also confused about something else.

Yep. I've heard of it.

Say what?

Oh, is this Testify?

You already are. You won an open source award.

What color was it? Golden. Oh, golden. That's first place.

Yeah, at least once so Robin Williams character Sean Tells will this story about how his wife farts in her sleep. Oh, yeah, she farts and will cracks up about it It's he sometimes she farts so loud. She woke herself up.

Yeah, I've done that and They're laughing about it and Sean says that's the stuff that I remember cuz she's died. She's dead, right? and that's not a spoiler because that's like start of the plot and So trailer, spoiler. Can you have a trailer spoiler? It's probably in the trailer. Trailer spoiler. Okay. And he says, you know, that's the stuff I remember.

You know, the fact that she farted in her sleep, which is funny.

Then he goes on from there. He's referring to idiosyncrasies, and he uses the word peccadillos, and I just assumed that that was a word, but I can't find that word anywhere else except for when Robin Williams said it, as you two were talking about stretching or something. I'm not sure what you guys were talking about.

Well, I spelled it like piccadillo square, or sorry, circus, or circle, and that was wrong. But according to this website here called Wiki quote is spelled P-E-C-C-A-D-I-L-L-O-S. You sort of know what it means, even though it's not a word. You totally know what it means. Actually, it is a word. I was probably just spelling it wrong.

A small sin or a fault, a slight trespass or offense, a petty crime, a trifling fault. So that's what I was talking about with go, you know? It was like this little sin of go. Right. Shadowing variables and stuff. Come on. And not having built-in test assertions.

And you don't use it anymore. I know that.

But not in new stuff.

And it's super popular. So probably a bunch of people came by and added their own little peccadilloes.

Did you, Matt, when you took this open source award, this medal, this gold medal.

Did you mention all the little people that helped you along the way, like all these contributors?

This wasn't like an award show or something?

You should do an acceptance speech that you could send to them. Oh, that's a lot of pressure.

Not bad.

Now, if you had to do that in song, for instance, what would that sound like? I'd only have one hand because I'm holding the metal. We'll just go strong hand only.

No, I was laughing at you because I know you said that previously during a Pound to Find game after Taylor Trosh gave you that little hand at Strange Loop. That's right. And you held the little hand up and you said, like, take my strong hand. That's what I was. I was laughing because I knew that was a callback and I knew Matt didn't know that was a callback. So I was also laughing for that reason.

Still got it.

There it is.

So this is a scary movie to quote? It's actually a Mandela effect. Oh, it's not actually in there.

I didn't know a lot of people watched that movie and had commentary on it.

Yeah, exactly. Come on. It's a sequel. That's exactly my point. You're making my point for me.

I can imagine you saying, you know, when Darth Vader says, Luke, I am your father, he never says that. Well, that's a shame, honestly. And that's a shame. That's what everybody thinks he says.

It's Mandela effect.

Are we talking about Nelson Mandela? Who are we talking about? Nelson Mandela.

Turns out he made it to 100.

That's one of those moments where you think that perhaps you're in great harm, you know? Like you're in harm's way.

Well, it's like a twist at the end where you're like, wait a second, the call's coming from inside the house? Oh, yeah. Like, it couldn't possibly be. He's been dead for years. And you're like, because, you know, you just had lunch with him, for instance.

Right, and his hook is hanging on the rearview mirror of your truck.

Exactly. Oh, my gosh. Oh, the two Fs. Oh, yeah. Both Freddies. Reminds me of a song. The one about two R's. How'd that go?

By now, I think that ship has sailed. I'm going to go back and re-watch that movie, actually. That's a great movie. By the way, if my kids are listening to this, stop right now. Actually, a few seconds before this because we're going to watch that together and I don't want them to be spoiled.

But they love the Matt Reier episodes.

I just did, but dang it. It's great. I have to go back in time.

Yeah, you could edit myself in, in the future. Actually, it's in the past. Depends on how you think about it. Okay. But yeah, good movie. I do remember that.

In case there's another quintessential pair that also starts with R. That was a pretty good abstraction, actually. You didn't say the words, so we can reuse it. Adam, think of another couple of R's later. Okay, I'll keep going. So I think it was Socrates. I could be wrong on the details of the individual.

What a shame. So here's what I would like to have in life. I'd like to have a Matt GBT, which is, of course, a musical intelligence that could answer my beck and call. If I had to say, hey, Matt GBT, could you summarize this podcast? Because GPTs can summarize, man.

And sometimes they can summarize in musical fashion if they happen to be a musical Matt GBT.

Musical people understand this, but for me, it's just more like stress because I don't know any more keys. I already gave you A minor and I don't know the other ones. Yeah. And Adam said P. That was a joke. B. Is that a good one? Is that the same as A minor?

C major? Matt, what's the best key for a summary?

But there is a very prominent philosopher slash academic, I think it's Socrates, who was against writing things down. publicly. He came out and said we shouldn't write. This was like the advent of writing, perhaps. The two R's. Writing and writing. And he just thought that we would lose our brains, like we would stop being able to remember things.

Take my strong hand. I'm thinking that Matt was even more comfortable at the piano than he is with a guitar. You can hear it and you can see it if you watch this episode on YouTube. Yes, we are shipping full-length video podcasts to our YouTube channel this year. Like and subscribe, why don't you?

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Don't go anywhere. Hang on. I don't subscribe to this. Do I have to stop listening?

And I recall when programmable phones were picking up and you no longer had to memorize people's phone numbers. And there were some folks who were kind of offended by that.

because there was a social dynamic to like whose numbers do you have memorized it kind of shows who's important to you in your life and there's certain people like i'm just going to remember your phone number and you know 10 years later they're all off that they're all done yeah it's over with purged why would you want to remember phone numbers if you don't have to so yeah i feel like some of it's the the more typical just don't move my cheese kind of stuff

I like how you console yourself. I was just over here thinking how I just missed a huge opportunity when I said the two R's, writing and writing. Because there actually were three R's. If you recall in early education, it was reading, writing, and arithmetic. And that's not even a joke. That's what they called it. I mean, it is a joke, but it's hilarious. Yeah. And I missed that opportunity.

So I'm just recovering that and getting it in there for the record. Get it in there.

Yes. Huh.

He had Plato to write all this stuff down for him.

470 BC. Gosh, so. I just feel like I asked that question so I could tell you. I didn't. I actually was typing it in. If you predate Jesus, it's a long time ago, right?

Oh, it's on purpose. It's on purpose. That's cheeky. So I'm remembering this now. Adam, good job of identifying this. This is a good, it's not shareware. What is it called? It's like trialware moved by them. Destructiveware. Yeah, it's kind of annoying.

Maybe right here we can insert one of those, a few minutes later, and then we come back.

The worst. White noise, just like really loud white noise. It progressively got louder and louder to the point we couldn't hear you at all. I think they should give you like a seven day or a 30 day. I mean, that was like a 45 minute trial, maybe, maybe less. Yeah, probably less. But we are fans of Rogue Amoeba software, but not necessarily that particular move they did right there.

Yeah, that was not cool. And whatever story you were telling, Matt, I'm sure it was hilarious. I don't remember now, do you? I don't either. Yeah. Should we just move on? Yeah. I think we should, yeah. Let's move on to the good stuff. Here we go. Let's tell each other some lies. Oh, gosh. I've got a lot for you. You want to do these? Now, let's explain what we're doing here, Matt.

Matt, this was your idea. It's similar to a game I play on JS Party called Head Lies. Where I do a similar thing, except for it's just one person. So I'm very excited because I've never actually gotten to participate. I've always been just the host. And today, I'm a participant. So take us away, Matt. This was your idea. What are we going to do?

Or the trues. So each of us has brought three and we'll each go in turn telling all three and then the other two people have to try to detect the lie. You want to go first? You're the guest.

That's number one.

These are headlines. These are the same like summaries. Well, that's what headline is. I know, right? Well, sometimes.

Okay, so AI has created new proteins. New protein. AI has created a new color.

okay and then the train one i think that one's true it's going faster than the speed of sound that is not that hard there's cars that have done it it's quite fast though i mean a train doing that is significant but you know it's china they got how fast is this sound barrier mock what four ten sounds like a question for a robot not a human

Maybe cars haven't done it.

Maybe those cars out in the desert where they're just like... Yeah. I think they have broken it. I'm just waffling back and forth.

Yeah.

Okay. So airplanes definitely break it then. But has a train in China broken it? Probably. I think they would figure that out. Yeah, could be. Okay, so I'm going with AI has created a new color. I think that's impossible. All the colors exist. All you got to do is get the right hex code.

Well, for me, they kind of are. Oh, you're more of an HSL guy? Yeah.

That's why I'm picking that one as a lie. Yeah. I just don't trust colors. Adam, what are you thinking?