John T. Downey

I mean, they've been listening to his communications, right? They knew this Jack guy.

I mean, they've been listening to his communications, right? They knew this Jack guy.

That's pretty creepy to sit in an office and decide that you're going to tell the parents of a guy that he's dead and gone when you know completely the opposite.

That's pretty creepy to sit in an office and decide that you're going to tell the parents of a guy that he's dead and gone when you know completely the opposite.

How do things proceed from this point? Is there an effort from the U.S. to get these guys home, or do they just ignore it at that point?

How do things proceed from this point? Is there an effort from the U.S. to get these guys home, or do they just ignore it at that point?

That of an American spy in the 1950s who, as it happened, was captured, tortured, and imprisoned by the Chinese for 21 years. His name was John Thomas Downey, Jack Downey, a legend of CIA lore, who is the subject of a new book published this year entitled Prisoner of Lies, America's Longest Held POW, Jack Downey's Cold War.

That of an American spy in the 1950s who, as it happened, was captured, tortured, and imprisoned by the Chinese for 21 years. His name was John Thomas Downey, Jack Downey, a legend of CIA lore, who is the subject of a new book published this year entitled Prisoner of Lies, America's Longest Held POW, Jack Downey's Cold War.

Yeah, this does not stand alone. I mean, this sort of thing happened and continues to happen, but this is pretty out there circumstances. We've introduced an important person. I don't want to go down the rabbit hole of this guy, but Alan Dulles. You fly into Dulles Airport, most Americans have no clue that that's the name and where that comes from.

Yeah, this does not stand alone. I mean, this sort of thing happened and continues to happen, but this is pretty out there circumstances. We've introduced an important person. I don't want to go down the rabbit hole of this guy, but Alan Dulles. You fly into Dulles Airport, most Americans have no clue that that's the name and where that comes from.

But these guys really were the craftsmen behind this kind of CIA, weren't they?

But these guys really were the craftsmen behind this kind of CIA, weren't they?

Well, the backdrop of all of this are these geopolitical events around the world, all of what's happening in Eastern Europe, et cetera, et cetera. But in the midst of it all, you have this single human being that your book is about, Jack Downey. How does he bear up under this kind of pressure and deal with the imprisonment extending without knowing where it's going?

Well, the backdrop of all of this are these geopolitical events around the world, all of what's happening in Eastern Europe, et cetera, et cetera. But in the midst of it all, you have this single human being that your book is about, Jack Downey. How does he bear up under this kind of pressure and deal with the imprisonment extending without knowing where it's going?

The author of this book is journalist Barry Wirth, and we're lucky to have him today. Hello, Barry. Congrats on the book release. Thanks so much. Good to be here. Before we dive into this account of American espionage, let's brief ourselves on the context, and it's a big one. 1950s. We're in post-World War II period.

The author of this book is journalist Barry Wirth, and we're lucky to have him today. Hello, Barry. Congrats on the book release. Thanks so much. Good to be here. Before we dive into this account of American espionage, let's brief ourselves on the context, and it's a big one. 1950s. We're in post-World War II period.

He refused to learn Chinese, which I find fascinating. I mean, how would you not learn it after all that time? But that was an important part of his strategy, wasn't it?

He refused to learn Chinese, which I find fascinating. I mean, how would you not learn it after all that time? But that was an important part of his strategy, wasn't it?

American foreign policy has now shifted to fears that communism is overtaking the world, particularly in Asia. Harry Truman and his lot have engaged the country in a civil war between North and South Korea, a slog that becomes a standstill, lasting from 1950 to 1953.

American foreign policy has now shifted to fears that communism is overtaking the world, particularly in Asia. Harry Truman and his lot have engaged the country in a civil war between North and South Korea, a slog that becomes a standstill, lasting from 1950 to 1953.

That entire decade goes by, 21 years eventually, but I'm saying the entire 1960s go by and no one even knows this man's alive.

That entire decade goes by, 21 years eventually, but I'm saying the entire 1960s go by and no one even knows this man's alive.

It really is Nixon's reconciliation in the 70s that changes everything, right? Yes.

It really is Nixon's reconciliation in the 70s that changes everything, right? Yes.

But prior to the Korean War, and this is what we really need to talk about, is the loss of China to communist forces led by Mao Zedong. Can you take us through American thinking at the time, the strategy of that time, how espionage would emerge as a major factor?

But prior to the Korean War, and this is what we really need to talk about, is the loss of China to communist forces led by Mao Zedong. Can you take us through American thinking at the time, the strategy of that time, how espionage would emerge as a major factor?

Did Downey feel this way about how he was treated? Did he see some sort of justice in their treatment of him?

Did Downey feel this way about how he was treated? Did he see some sort of justice in their treatment of him?

Let's talk about that. So when he comes home in 73, how does he put his life back together?

Let's talk about that. So when he comes home in 73, how does he put his life back together?

You brought up the subject of Gary Powers is an interesting contrast, and I think it's important to define that powers that what happens to powers happens because he is acknowledged as a spy right away versus Downey, who they needed to have a cover story. And that really held up.

You brought up the subject of Gary Powers is an interesting contrast, and I think it's important to define that powers that what happens to powers happens because he is acknowledged as a spy right away versus Downey, who they needed to have a cover story. And that really held up.

Okay.

Okay.

Well, fascinating. An ironic, happy ending to a very, very difficult tale. The book is called Prisoner of Lies, America's Longest Held POW, Jack Downey's Cold War. And it's filled with much more detail than we have gone through here. And a fascinating lens to look at all of the Cold War, which we have talked about a lot on this show. This is very exciting to read.

Well, fascinating. An ironic, happy ending to a very, very difficult tale. The book is called Prisoner of Lies, America's Longest Held POW, Jack Downey's Cold War. And it's filled with much more detail than we have gone through here. And a fascinating lens to look at all of the Cold War, which we have talked about a lot on this show. This is very exciting to read.

The author is Barry Wertz, journalist who has worked on many, many books and articles for the likes of New Yorker and New York Times, GQ magazine, and taught journalism and nonfiction writing at Smith and Boston University. Thank you very much, Barry. Thanks so much, Don. Thank you. Hey, thanks for listening to American History Hit.

The author is Barry Wertz, journalist who has worked on many, many books and articles for the likes of New Yorker and New York Times, GQ magazine, and taught journalism and nonfiction writing at Smith and Boston University. Thank you very much, Barry. Thanks so much, Don. Thank you. Hey, thanks for listening to American History Hit.

You know, every week we release new episodes, two new episodes dropping Mondays and Thursdays. All kinds of content from mysterious missing colonies to powerful political movements to some of the biggest battles across the centuries. Don't miss an episode. By hitting like and follow, you help us out, which is great. But you'll also be reminded when our shows are on.

You know, every week we release new episodes, two new episodes dropping Mondays and Thursdays. All kinds of content from mysterious missing colonies to powerful political movements to some of the biggest battles across the centuries. Don't miss an episode. By hitting like and follow, you help us out, which is great. But you'll also be reminded when our shows are on.

And while you're at it, share it with a friend.

And while you're at it, share it with a friend.

We've done shows on the CIA, on the birth of the CIA, all of that that goes into it. One forgets these days that Taiwan goes all the way back to that period. How much was the CIA a result of the China-Taiwan situation?

We've done shows on the CIA, on the birth of the CIA, all of that that goes into it. One forgets these days that Taiwan goes all the way back to that period. How much was the CIA a result of the China-Taiwan situation?

Just before 11 a.m. on March 12, 1973, a 42-year-old American male crosses the Lowu border bridge from Shenzhen, China, into Hong Kong. Wearing thick-rimmed, square glasses, royal blue trousers with a matching high-button jacket, and a navy cap over his slightly balding head, the man carries just a black suitcase and an overcoat.

Just before 11 a.m. on March 12, 1973, a 42-year-old American male crosses the Lowu border bridge from Shenzhen, China, into Hong Kong. Wearing thick-rimmed, square glasses, royal blue trousers with a matching high-button jacket, and a navy cap over his slightly balding head, the man carries just a black suitcase and an overcoat.

Yeah. It's this can-do attitude of that OSS crowd that was really appropriate for the time, you know, fighting a war in real time with that. That then sort of transfers to a more thoughtful period, which requires a broader strategy. And that can-do turns into can't-do sometimes. Yeah. They also are in the strange position of having to recruit people, you know, out of wartime.

Yeah. It's this can-do attitude of that OSS crowd that was really appropriate for the time, you know, fighting a war in real time with that. That then sort of transfers to a more thoughtful period, which requires a broader strategy. And that can-do turns into can't-do sometimes. Yeah. They also are in the strange position of having to recruit people, you know, out of wartime.

They're having to go look for the right kind of man, probably white man, who fits the bill. And along comes Jack Downey, John T. Downey. How do they find the likes of him, and why there, and what are they looking for?

They're having to go look for the right kind of man, probably white man, who fits the bill. And along comes Jack Downey, John T. Downey. How do they find the likes of him, and why there, and what are they looking for?

Yeah, he becomes a kind of an archetype of that era of the CIA. He's an extraordinary student, this guy. He goes to Choate, class president, then to Yale and so forth. He's really right out of the gate, isn't he? When you're recruited for this, he's a 22-year-old who goes into action.

Yeah, he becomes a kind of an archetype of that era of the CIA. He's an extraordinary student, this guy. He goes to Choate, class president, then to Yale and so forth. He's really right out of the gate, isn't he? When you're recruited for this, he's a 22-year-old who goes into action.

Tell me about the operations that he gets involved in. He's sent to Japan. For what reason?

Tell me about the operations that he gets involved in. He's sent to Japan. For what reason?

A British police officer salutes him, and the man grins, surprised, delighted. After 20 years, 3 months, and 14 days of solitary confinement, indoctrination sessions, and little distraction from the whitewashed walls of his cell, he is finally back among friends. The man is CIA agent John T. Downey, Jack.

A British police officer salutes him, and the man grins, surprised, delighted. After 20 years, 3 months, and 14 days of solitary confinement, indoctrination sessions, and little distraction from the whitewashed walls of his cell, he is finally back among friends. The man is CIA agent John T. Downey, Jack.

So he was finding his recruits in Taiwan, right?

So he was finding his recruits in Taiwan, right?

And so what was the objective to drop these recruits into China and do what?

And so what was the objective to drop these recruits into China and do what?

Okay. Exfiltrated. I love that word.

Okay. Exfiltrated. I love that word.

This may have blown past people, and I just want to really put a pin in this. So the idea is this C-47, which is a large plane, gets flown over and low. And a cable is suspended downward with a winch on it, a hook, I guess.

This may have blown past people, and I just want to really put a pin in this. So the idea is this C-47, which is a large plane, gets flown over and low. And a cable is suspended downward with a winch on it, a hook, I guess.

And it catches on to the back of somebody who's running along, I suppose.

And it catches on to the back of somebody who's running along, I suppose.

in 1952 the c-47 aircraft he'd been flying in was shot down in manchuria he has been confined in a chinese prison ever since for more than two decades Greetings, this is American History Hit, and I'm Don Wildman. And here, at the almost end of summer, as temperatures drop, it's only appropriate we have a Cold War tale to tell.

in 1952 the c-47 aircraft he'd been flying in was shot down in manchuria he has been confined in a chinese prison ever since for more than two decades Greetings, this is American History Hit, and I'm Don Wildman. And here, at the almost end of summer, as temperatures drop, it's only appropriate we have a Cold War tale to tell.

That's crazier than my version.

That's crazier than my version.

I mean, so the whole thing had been set up. The team that he thought he was communicating with, honestly, was actually already turned and sending him. They'd been doubled. Yeah, they'd been doubled. And so he was flying right into a trap. So he is taken captive along with Dick Fecteau, his partner there, and taken into prison. I imagine immediately there is word back home.

I mean, so the whole thing had been set up. The team that he thought he was communicating with, honestly, was actually already turned and sending him. They'd been doubled. Yeah, they'd been doubled. And so he was flying right into a trap. So he is taken captive along with Dick Fecteau, his partner there, and taken into prison. I imagine immediately there is word back home.

Oh my gosh, we've lost our men. There's a national emergency. The newspapers have headlines. And none of that happened. Because it was the CIA.

Oh my gosh, we've lost our men. There's a national emergency. The newspapers have headlines. And none of that happened. Because it was the CIA.

I mean, they've been listening to his communications, right? They knew this Jack guy.

That's pretty creepy to sit in an office and decide that you're going to tell the parents of a guy that he's dead and gone when you know completely the opposite.

How do things proceed from this point? Is there an effort from the U.S. to get these guys home, or do they just ignore it at that point?

That of an American spy in the 1950s who, as it happened, was captured, tortured, and imprisoned by the Chinese for 21 years. His name was John Thomas Downey, Jack Downey, a legend of CIA lore, who is the subject of a new book published this year entitled Prisoner of Lies, America's Longest Held POW, Jack Downey's Cold War.

Yeah, this does not stand alone. I mean, this sort of thing happened and continues to happen, but this is pretty out there circumstances. We've introduced an important person. I don't want to go down the rabbit hole of this guy, but Alan Dulles. You fly into Dulles Airport, most Americans have no clue that that's the name and where that comes from.

But these guys really were the craftsmen behind this kind of CIA, weren't they?

Well, the backdrop of all of this are these geopolitical events around the world, all of what's happening in Eastern Europe, et cetera, et cetera. But in the midst of it all, you have this single human being that your book is about, Jack Downey. How does he bear up under this kind of pressure and deal with the imprisonment extending without knowing where it's going?

The author of this book is journalist Barry Wirth, and we're lucky to have him today. Hello, Barry. Congrats on the book release. Thanks so much. Good to be here. Before we dive into this account of American espionage, let's brief ourselves on the context, and it's a big one. 1950s. We're in post-World War II period.

He refused to learn Chinese, which I find fascinating. I mean, how would you not learn it after all that time? But that was an important part of his strategy, wasn't it?

American foreign policy has now shifted to fears that communism is overtaking the world, particularly in Asia. Harry Truman and his lot have engaged the country in a civil war between North and South Korea, a slog that becomes a standstill, lasting from 1950 to 1953.

That entire decade goes by, 21 years eventually, but I'm saying the entire 1960s go by and no one even knows this man's alive.

It really is Nixon's reconciliation in the 70s that changes everything, right? Yes.

But prior to the Korean War, and this is what we really need to talk about, is the loss of China to communist forces led by Mao Zedong. Can you take us through American thinking at the time, the strategy of that time, how espionage would emerge as a major factor?

Did Downey feel this way about how he was treated? Did he see some sort of justice in their treatment of him?

Let's talk about that. So when he comes home in 73, how does he put his life back together?

You brought up the subject of Gary Powers is an interesting contrast, and I think it's important to define that powers that what happens to powers happens because he is acknowledged as a spy right away versus Downey, who they needed to have a cover story. And that really held up.

Okay.

Well, fascinating. An ironic, happy ending to a very, very difficult tale. The book is called Prisoner of Lies, America's Longest Held POW, Jack Downey's Cold War. And it's filled with much more detail than we have gone through here. And a fascinating lens to look at all of the Cold War, which we have talked about a lot on this show. This is very exciting to read.

The author is Barry Wertz, journalist who has worked on many, many books and articles for the likes of New Yorker and New York Times, GQ magazine, and taught journalism and nonfiction writing at Smith and Boston University. Thank you very much, Barry. Thanks so much, Don. Thank you. Hey, thanks for listening to American History Hit.

You know, every week we release new episodes, two new episodes dropping Mondays and Thursdays. All kinds of content from mysterious missing colonies to powerful political movements to some of the biggest battles across the centuries. Don't miss an episode. By hitting like and follow, you help us out, which is great. But you'll also be reminded when our shows are on.

And while you're at it, share it with a friend.

We've done shows on the CIA, on the birth of the CIA, all of that that goes into it. One forgets these days that Taiwan goes all the way back to that period. How much was the CIA a result of the China-Taiwan situation?

Just before 11 a.m. on March 12, 1973, a 42-year-old American male crosses the Lowu border bridge from Shenzhen, China, into Hong Kong. Wearing thick-rimmed, square glasses, royal blue trousers with a matching high-button jacket, and a navy cap over his slightly balding head, the man carries just a black suitcase and an overcoat.

Yeah. It's this can-do attitude of that OSS crowd that was really appropriate for the time, you know, fighting a war in real time with that. That then sort of transfers to a more thoughtful period, which requires a broader strategy. And that can-do turns into can't-do sometimes. Yeah. They also are in the strange position of having to recruit people, you know, out of wartime.

They're having to go look for the right kind of man, probably white man, who fits the bill. And along comes Jack Downey, John T. Downey. How do they find the likes of him, and why there, and what are they looking for?

Yeah, he becomes a kind of an archetype of that era of the CIA. He's an extraordinary student, this guy. He goes to Choate, class president, then to Yale and so forth. He's really right out of the gate, isn't he? When you're recruited for this, he's a 22-year-old who goes into action.

Tell me about the operations that he gets involved in. He's sent to Japan. For what reason?

A British police officer salutes him, and the man grins, surprised, delighted. After 20 years, 3 months, and 14 days of solitary confinement, indoctrination sessions, and little distraction from the whitewashed walls of his cell, he is finally back among friends. The man is CIA agent John T. Downey, Jack.

So he was finding his recruits in Taiwan, right?

And so what was the objective to drop these recruits into China and do what?

Okay. Exfiltrated. I love that word.

This may have blown past people, and I just want to really put a pin in this. So the idea is this C-47, which is a large plane, gets flown over and low. And a cable is suspended downward with a winch on it, a hook, I guess.

And it catches on to the back of somebody who's running along, I suppose.

in 1952 the c-47 aircraft he'd been flying in was shot down in manchuria he has been confined in a chinese prison ever since for more than two decades Greetings, this is American History Hit, and I'm Don Wildman. And here, at the almost end of summer, as temperatures drop, it's only appropriate we have a Cold War tale to tell.

That's crazier than my version.

I mean, so the whole thing had been set up. The team that he thought he was communicating with, honestly, was actually already turned and sending him. They'd been doubled. Yeah, they'd been doubled. And so he was flying right into a trap. So he is taken captive along with Dick Fecteau, his partner there, and taken into prison. I imagine immediately there is word back home.

Oh my gosh, we've lost our men. There's a national emergency. The newspapers have headlines. And none of that happened. Because it was the CIA.