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Kathryn Schulz

👤 Person
304 total appearances

Appearances Over Time

Podcast Appearances

The Ezra Klein Show
Our Lives Are an Endless Series of 'And'

You know, I knew I was going to be telling at least two kinds of stories in this book, and one was about grief and one was about love. And when you go and you survey the landscape of love stories, the vast majority of them are covert tragedies. They're love stories that get told because they either end in divorce or premature death. They darken drastically over the course of telling them.

The Ezra Klein Show
Our Lives Are an Endless Series of 'And'

You know, I knew I was going to be telling at least two kinds of stories in this book, and one was about grief and one was about love. And when you go and you survey the landscape of love stories, the vast majority of them are covert tragedies. They're love stories that get told because they either end in divorce or premature death. They darken drastically over the course of telling them.

The Ezra Klein Show
Our Lives Are an Endless Series of 'And'

And as a result, most of... What we read and hear and watch of love stories is either the beginning or the ending. We get the how did you meet and the kind of falling in love and all of the shiny, exciting romance and passion at the beginning. And either it just ends there, right? It ends with marriage.

The Ezra Klein Show
Our Lives Are an Endless Series of 'And'

And as a result, most of... What we read and hear and watch of love stories is either the beginning or the ending. We get the how did you meet and the kind of falling in love and all of the shiny, exciting romance and passion at the beginning. And either it just ends there, right? It ends with marriage.

The Ezra Klein Show
Our Lives Are an Endless Series of 'And'

It ends with getting together or having kids or, you know, there's just the kind of implicit or explicit happily ever after. Or we then kind of leap ahead to the destruction and dissolution of this much-longed-for state, whether through separation or death. And I found this curious because, of course, that leaves off the vast majority of most or at least many relationships, right?

The Ezra Klein Show
Our Lives Are an Endless Series of 'And'

It ends with getting together or having kids or, you know, there's just the kind of implicit or explicit happily ever after. Or we then kind of leap ahead to the destruction and dissolution of this much-longed-for state, whether through separation or death. And I found this curious because, of course, that leaves off the vast majority of most or at least many relationships, right?

The Ezra Klein Show
Our Lives Are an Endless Series of 'And'

Like, when you are happily together with someone, actually what matters to you is the middle. And actually what you want to have go on and on and on is the middle. But nobody writes about the middle, right? Like, there's very little about just the kind of day-to-day happiness and just texture of a happy life, which isn't just happy.

The Ezra Klein Show
Our Lives Are an Endless Series of 'And'

Like, when you are happily together with someone, actually what matters to you is the middle. And actually what you want to have go on and on and on is the middle. But nobody writes about the middle, right? Like, there's very little about just the kind of day-to-day happiness and just texture of a happy life, which isn't just happy.

The Ezra Klein Show
Our Lives Are an Endless Series of 'And'

I mean, a lot of this book is about the kind of endless overlap and contradiction and friction and different emotions. And a lot of happiness is infused with annoyance or frustration or bad days or whatever it may be, but still somehow fundamentally feels for us that the deep an essential name you would give to it as happiness and that was interesting to me and I wanted to write about it.

The Ezra Klein Show
Our Lives Are an Endless Series of 'And'

I mean, a lot of this book is about the kind of endless overlap and contradiction and friction and different emotions. And a lot of happiness is infused with annoyance or frustration or bad days or whatever it may be, but still somehow fundamentally feels for us that the deep an essential name you would give to it as happiness and that was interesting to me and I wanted to write about it.

The Ezra Klein Show
Our Lives Are an Endless Series of 'And'

I think that's absolutely true, but I don't think that's just true of happiness. I mean, yes, happiness is more than just happiness, but everything is more than just everything. I mean, there's this wonderful C.S. Lewis line about how you never encounter just cancer or just war or just happiness or just unhappiness. They are always incredibly variable in the lived experience of them.

The Ezra Klein Show
Our Lives Are an Endless Series of 'And'

I think that's absolutely true, but I don't think that's just true of happiness. I mean, yes, happiness is more than just happiness, but everything is more than just everything. I mean, there's this wonderful C.S. Lewis line about how you never encounter just cancer or just war or just happiness or just unhappiness. They are always incredibly variable in the lived experience of them.

The Ezra Klein Show
Our Lives Are an Endless Series of 'And'

There are good moments and hard times. There are hard moments and good times. And We want to act like that's the anomaly, but it's not, right? It's like the actual texture of life. And in fact, I think we would probably all be happier if we recognize that happiness is not a pure experience. Love is not a pure experience. Grief is not a pure experience.

The Ezra Klein Show
Our Lives Are an Endless Series of 'And'

There are good moments and hard times. There are hard moments and good times. And We want to act like that's the anomaly, but it's not, right? It's like the actual texture of life. And in fact, I think we would probably all be happier if we recognize that happiness is not a pure experience. Love is not a pure experience. Grief is not a pure experience.

The Ezra Klein Show
Our Lives Are an Endless Series of 'And'

All of them are always amalgamated with their opposite. And it's so sweet, actually, your awareness that someday this will seem wonderful and easy. And sure, of course, my life and my partner's life with two children and 17 book deadlines and whatever else may be going on is not the bliss of a first kiss when the world suddenly seems to be opening up and this entire new path is shining before you.

The Ezra Klein Show
Our Lives Are an Endless Series of 'And'

All of them are always amalgamated with their opposite. And it's so sweet, actually, your awareness that someday this will seem wonderful and easy. And sure, of course, my life and my partner's life with two children and 17 book deadlines and whatever else may be going on is not the bliss of a first kiss when the world suddenly seems to be opening up and this entire new path is shining before you.

The Ezra Klein Show
Our Lives Are an Endless Series of 'And'

But I'll tell you, the path is beautiful. And part of what we don't, I think, pay enough attention to is the beauty of that path, of any path. And it's what I said earlier about duty. On some level, a beautiful thing about hard moments in marriage or in anything is like, well, you're doing this because you're committed to it, even in the moments that aren't just bliss and joy.

The Ezra Klein Show
Our Lives Are an Endless Series of 'And'

But I'll tell you, the path is beautiful. And part of what we don't, I think, pay enough attention to is the beauty of that path, of any path. And it's what I said earlier about duty. On some level, a beautiful thing about hard moments in marriage or in anything is like, well, you're doing this because you're committed to it, even in the moments that aren't just bliss and joy.

The Ezra Klein Show
Our Lives Are an Endless Series of 'And'

And like, do I want to take the compost out in the pouring rain as I did first thing this morning? Absolutely not. But do I want my partner to have to do it? Nope. Like, why shouldn't I, right? Like, isn't the better thing to do in this moment is to man up, as we used to say, and just go do the thing. And there's a kind of beauty in that and a kind of happiness and a kind of fulfillment in it.

The Ezra Klein Show
Our Lives Are an Endless Series of 'And'

And like, do I want to take the compost out in the pouring rain as I did first thing this morning? Absolutely not. But do I want my partner to have to do it? Nope. Like, why shouldn't I, right? Like, isn't the better thing to do in this moment is to man up, as we used to say, and just go do the thing. And there's a kind of beauty in that and a kind of happiness and a kind of fulfillment in it.