Leslie Landrigan

Thanks, Mike. I'm happy to be on.

Thanks, Mike. I'm happy to be on.

We know two things. We know that they had four deer that the natives brought, the 90 natives. And we know that the men went out shooting birds with the natives and the Englishmen. So birds, deer, probably shellfish, probably corn. That's what we know for sure. Lobster maybe.

We know two things. We know that they had four deer that the natives brought, the 90 natives. And we know that the men went out shooting birds with the natives and the Englishmen. So birds, deer, probably shellfish, probably corn. That's what we know for sure. Lobster maybe.

What's interesting to me, if you call the meeting of indigenous people and English colonists in the early 17th century to eat food in... autumn, if you're going to call that a Thanksgiving, then the pilgrims in 1621 were not the first Thanksgiving. The first Thanksgiving would have been in 1607 in Phippsburg, Maine, where a failed colony was established for about a year.

What's interesting to me, if you call the meeting of indigenous people and English colonists in the early 17th century to eat food in... autumn, if you're going to call that a Thanksgiving, then the pilgrims in 1621 were not the first Thanksgiving. The first Thanksgiving would have been in 1607 in Phippsburg, Maine, where a failed colony was established for about a year.

But the circumstances were very, very similar. The two groups came together basically

But the circumstances were very, very similar. The two groups came together basically

it was more of a state dinner than it was a thanksgiving they were negotiating alliances they would trade with each other and they would defend each other against common enemies the food that they ate which we'll get into very soon here but is it the food that they always ate or was this some real special kind of food it was the food they usually ate.

it was more of a state dinner than it was a thanksgiving they were negotiating alliances they would trade with each other and they would defend each other against common enemies the food that they ate which we'll get into very soon here but is it the food that they always ate or was this some real special kind of food it was the food they usually ate.

They may have dressed it up a little bit and it would have been plentiful because of the time of year, but it was pretty much what they ate. I was gonna say one of the things that they always ate and they ate to excess and they have eaten it since 1620 and they're still eating it is pumpkin. Pumpkin was hugely important. And you know how we call people in Wisconsin cheese heads?

They may have dressed it up a little bit and it would have been plentiful because of the time of year, but it was pretty much what they ate. I was gonna say one of the things that they always ate and they ate to excess and they have eaten it since 1620 and they're still eating it is pumpkin. Pumpkin was hugely important. And you know how we call people in Wisconsin cheese heads?

People used to call New Englanders pumpkin heads. New England was the pumpkin dominion, and the first American folk song was written in 1620, and it was about how they ate too much pumpkin all the time.

People used to call New Englanders pumpkin heads. New England was the pumpkin dominion, and the first American folk song was written in 1620, and it was about how they ate too much pumpkin all the time.

Actually, they did know of pumpkin in England, and pumpkin pie was really popular. The Spanish had brought it over. And then it kind of fell out of favor. But it grew well. It was more resistant to deer and insects and fungus and things like that. So I think it was just its hardiness, and it kept for a while.

Actually, they did know of pumpkin in England, and pumpkin pie was really popular. The Spanish had brought it over. And then it kind of fell out of favor. But it grew well. It was more resistant to deer and insects and fungus and things like that. So I think it was just its hardiness, and it kept for a while.

They tended to stew it. They would do a lot with it, but mostly they'd chop it up and stew it and mix it up with other stuff. I don't know that it was terribly appetizing.

They tended to stew it. They would do a lot with it, but mostly they'd chop it up and stew it and mix it up with other stuff. I don't know that it was terribly appetizing.

No.

No.

It's pretty nutritious, though.

It's pretty nutritious, though.

Well, you know, the natives, they grew what was called the three sisters, the pumpkin or squash, beans and corn, which for some reason having to do with amino acids or carbohydrates or something, I don't know, makes for a very nutritious diet.

Well, you know, the natives, they grew what was called the three sisters, the pumpkin or squash, beans and corn, which for some reason having to do with amino acids or carbohydrates or something, I don't know, makes for a very nutritious diet.

no it wasn't for a long time they may have had turkey at the first thanksgiving turkeys are wild turkeys are really stupid birds they roost in the same place all the time so you know if you want dinner you just go get yourself a turkey but in in fact they were so easy to kill that they were obliterated from new england uh probably by the civil war turkey it was a part of the meal and it was something they ate

no it wasn't for a long time they may have had turkey at the first thanksgiving turkeys are wild turkeys are really stupid birds they roost in the same place all the time so you know if you want dinner you just go get yourself a turkey but in in fact they were so easy to kill that they were obliterated from new england uh probably by the civil war turkey it was a part of the meal and it was something they ate

But chicken pie was the big thing for a long time. And it was a woman named Sarah Josepha Hale, who was a widow with five kids and needed money. So she wrote a book in 1827. It was a novel. I can't think of the name of it, but... She described a Thanksgiving dinner in New England, a classic New England Thanksgiving, which was really at the time only celebrated in New England.

But chicken pie was the big thing for a long time. And it was a woman named Sarah Josepha Hale, who was a widow with five kids and needed money. So she wrote a book in 1827. It was a novel. I can't think of the name of it, but... She described a Thanksgiving dinner in New England, a classic New England Thanksgiving, which was really at the time only celebrated in New England.

And the book sold well, and she got a job as the editor of what became Godey's Lady's Book, which was this tremendously influential magazine. It was way more influential than Martha Stewart. And she she was an American influencer and she was the one who made turkey the centerpiece of the American meal. And she was also the one she lobbied for a long time to make Thanksgiving a national holiday.

And the book sold well, and she got a job as the editor of what became Godey's Lady's Book, which was this tremendously influential magazine. It was way more influential than Martha Stewart. And she she was an American influencer and she was the one who made turkey the centerpiece of the American meal. And she was also the one she lobbied for a long time to make Thanksgiving a national holiday.

And finally, Abraham Lincoln was the one who said, yeah, OK.

And finally, Abraham Lincoln was the one who said, yeah, OK.

Well, for the pilgrims, it would have been something called nasamp, which was a native kind of a porridge made with cornmeal and nuts, berries, and maybe a sweetener. They probably would have had striped bass, which was a fish that was easy to catch, and that was also sustaining them. Probably would have had shellfish.

Well, for the pilgrims, it would have been something called nasamp, which was a native kind of a porridge made with cornmeal and nuts, berries, and maybe a sweetener. They probably would have had striped bass, which was a fish that was easy to catch, and that was also sustaining them. Probably would have had shellfish.

They would have had deer probably, and I'm guessing a lot of different kinds of wild fowl. I don't know that they would have had dessert, but they did develop this thing called Indian pudding, which was cornmeal with milk and a sweetener.

They would have had deer probably, and I'm guessing a lot of different kinds of wild fowl. I don't know that they would have had dessert, but they did develop this thing called Indian pudding, which was cornmeal with milk and a sweetener.

Oh, potatoes. Well, in 1620, we're talking about that first Thanksgiving, that first alleged Thanksgiving. They would have known about potatoes, but the potato they would have known about was the sweet potato, which the Spanish had brought to Europe. And it was highly prized because it was believed to be an aphrodisiac. and it was a luxury item.

Oh, potatoes. Well, in 1620, we're talking about that first Thanksgiving, that first alleged Thanksgiving. They would have known about potatoes, but the potato they would have known about was the sweet potato, which the Spanish had brought to Europe. And it was highly prized because it was believed to be an aphrodisiac. and it was a luxury item.

So some of the pilgrims who were of the gentry would have been familiar with the sweet potato. But the sweet potato didn't come to America, I think, until 1764. The Irish potato didn't come to the United States until 1718, when there were five shiploads of

So some of the pilgrims who were of the gentry would have been familiar with the sweet potato. But the sweet potato didn't come to America, I think, until 1764. The Irish potato didn't come to the United States until 1718, when there were five shiploads of

Scots-Irish who came to Boston, and the Boston Puritans didn't want to have anything to do with them, so they sent them to the New Hampshire frontier. And in what is now Derry, New Hampshire, they planted the first potato, the first Irish potato. And it was viewed as a food for the poor and For pigs and for the Irish, you just didn't eat the potato.

Scots-Irish who came to Boston, and the Boston Puritans didn't want to have anything to do with them, so they sent them to the New Hampshire frontier. And in what is now Derry, New Hampshire, they planted the first potato, the first Irish potato. And it was viewed as a food for the poor and For pigs and for the Irish, you just didn't eat the potato.

And the French hated the white potato even more. They banned its harvesting or they banned the planting of the potato because they thought that it caused leprosy. But then during the Seven Years' War, around 1755 or so, there was a French pharmacist who was captured by the Germans. And while he was in prison, they made him eat potatoes.

And the French hated the white potato even more. They banned its harvesting or they banned the planting of the potato because they thought that it caused leprosy. But then during the Seven Years' War, around 1755 or so, there was a French pharmacist who was captured by the Germans. And while he was in prison, they made him eat potatoes.

So after he got released, he got really interested in nutrition and he rehabilitated the potato and The French came to embrace the noble spud, and they served Thomas Jefferson French fries in Paris when he was minister to France. And Thomas Jefferson liked the French fries, so he served them at the White House when he was president.

So after he got released, he got really interested in nutrition and he rehabilitated the potato and The French came to embrace the noble spud, and they served Thomas Jefferson French fries in Paris when he was minister to France. And Thomas Jefferson liked the French fries, so he served them at the White House when he was president.

And that's how the white potato became a popular menu item at Thanksgiving.

And that's how the white potato became a popular menu item at Thanksgiving.

They would have known about the sweet potato, but they wouldn't have had them here. It was something, you know, it was like a really fancy food.

They would have known about the sweet potato, but they wouldn't have had them here. It was something, you know, it was like a really fancy food.

Oh, they would have had cranberries, definitely. The natives revered the cranberry. In fact, there is a... There are some Wampanoag people who live on Martha's Vineyard. And their Thanksgiving is the second Thursday, I think, in October. And it's Cranberry Day. And the kids get out of school and they eat cranberries. It was very, very useful. It was used as a dye. It was used as a sweetener.

Oh, they would have had cranberries, definitely. The natives revered the cranberry. In fact, there is a... There are some Wampanoag people who live on Martha's Vineyard. And their Thanksgiving is the second Thursday, I think, in October. And it's Cranberry Day. And the kids get out of school and they eat cranberries. It was very, very useful. It was used as a dye. It was used as a sweetener.

It had medicinal properties.

It had medicinal properties.

They would have eaten the three sisters, the pumpkins, the beans, and the squash. Celery is kind of an interesting vegetable because it didn't really come to America until... the American Revolution, the 1770s, and it was It was kind of a fancy food. But think about it. You're celebrating Thanksgiving in late fall and vegetables are mushy, but there's this nice green crisp vegetable.

They would have eaten the three sisters, the pumpkins, the beans, and the squash. Celery is kind of an interesting vegetable because it didn't really come to America until... the American Revolution, the 1770s, and it was It was kind of a fancy food. But think about it. You're celebrating Thanksgiving in late fall and vegetables are mushy, but there's this nice green crisp vegetable.

And for many years, it was the most popular item on U.S. restaurant menus next to coffee and tea.

And for many years, it was the most popular item on U.S. restaurant menus next to coffee and tea.

Well, the people who stick in my mind are the first four women who cooked Thanksgiving. Because after that first winter, there were only four adult women left in Plymouth Colony. And there would have been some 48 others who survived. And 90 Native Americans. So that's cooking for 140 people. Here are these four women who have to pluck all the birds that the men caught.

Well, the people who stick in my mind are the first four women who cooked Thanksgiving. Because after that first winter, there were only four adult women left in Plymouth Colony. And there would have been some 48 others who survived. And 90 Native Americans. So that's cooking for 140 people. Here are these four women who have to pluck all the birds that the men caught.

They probably have to cut up the deer. They have no running water. They've got to cook outside. It just would have been a nightmare. I can't even imagine it. But I can tell you who they were. There was Mary Brewster, who was older. She was in her 50s, and she was the wife of... William Brewster, the spiritual guide.

They probably have to cut up the deer. They have no running water. They've got to cook outside. It just would have been a nightmare. I can't even imagine it. But I can tell you who they were. There was Mary Brewster, who was older. She was in her 50s, and she was the wife of... William Brewster, the spiritual guide.

There was Susanna Winslow, who was the wife of Edward Winslow, who was one of the leaders. And those two were saints, which means they were the Puritans who came for religious reasons. So the other two women were Elizabeth Hopkins and Elizabeth Billington. And the Billingtons were bad news. Her husband, John Billington, was hanged for murder.

There was Susanna Winslow, who was the wife of Edward Winslow, who was one of the leaders. And those two were saints, which means they were the Puritans who came for religious reasons. So the other two women were Elizabeth Hopkins and Elizabeth Billington. And the Billingtons were bad news. Her husband, John Billington, was hanged for murder.

Her son was a troublemaker who got lost and nearly started a war between the pilgrims and the natives, and she was whipped for slander. But the one who really interests me is Elizabeth Hopkins. Her husband was Stephen Hopkins, who was in a Shakespeare play.

Her son was a troublemaker who got lost and nearly started a war between the pilgrims and the natives, and she was whipped for slander. But the one who really interests me is Elizabeth Hopkins. Her husband was Stephen Hopkins, who was in a Shakespeare play.

He had come over to North America one time previously as an indentured servant, and his ship got wrecked, and they lived on Bermuda for nine months, and rebuilt the ship and went to Jamestown. And Shakespeare heard the story and wrote The Tempest. And so Stephen Hopkins, who came back to North America after returning to England, he was Stefano in The Tempest. He was the power-mad butler.

He had come over to North America one time previously as an indentured servant, and his ship got wrecked, and they lived on Bermuda for nine months, and rebuilt the ship and went to Jamestown. And Shakespeare heard the story and wrote The Tempest. And so Stephen Hopkins, who came back to North America after returning to England, he was Stefano in The Tempest. He was the power-mad butler.

I think there would have been. One thing I'm really unclear about is whether the Native women came because, you know, they might have brought some nasamp or some cornbread or something. There were servants and there were children, and so I think everybody would have been pressed into service. They'd been working together for over a year.

I think there would have been. One thing I'm really unclear about is whether the Native women came because, you know, they might have brought some nasamp or some cornbread or something. There were servants and there were children, and so I think everybody would have been pressed into service. They'd been working together for over a year.

You know, the pilgrims had things that the Indians wanted, guns, for example, or, you know, trade goods, pots. And the natives had something that the pilgrims wanted, which was fur. There was a huge, huge market for beaver fur in Europe. And the natives taught the pilgrims how to fish. So I think it would have been a cooperative effort.

You know, the pilgrims had things that the Indians wanted, guns, for example, or, you know, trade goods, pots. And the natives had something that the pilgrims wanted, which was fur. There was a huge, huge market for beaver fur in Europe. And the natives taught the pilgrims how to fish. So I think it would have been a cooperative effort.

No, they intermingled a lot. As a matter of fact, Edward Winslow, who was the husband of Susanna Winslow, who cooked that dinner, he saved the chief's life at one point. Massasoit had some illness and Edward Winslow came and Honestly, I think he fed him something like chicken soup and did something to save his life. So, yes.

No, they intermingled a lot. As a matter of fact, Edward Winslow, who was the husband of Susanna Winslow, who cooked that dinner, he saved the chief's life at one point. Massasoit had some illness and Edward Winslow came and Honestly, I think he fed him something like chicken soup and did something to save his life. So, yes.

And, of course, Squanto, the native who breeded them, taught them how to grow corn. So they mingled a lot.

And, of course, Squanto, the native who breeded them, taught them how to grow corn. So they mingled a lot.

It wasn't really Thanksgiving until the 19th century. it was kind of forgotten. And Thanksgiving was something that the English celebrated in England and here. It wasn't a harvest meal. A real Thanksgiving was getting the community together because you were thankful for something. They could be rain after a drought or a military victory.

It wasn't really Thanksgiving until the 19th century. it was kind of forgotten. And Thanksgiving was something that the English celebrated in England and here. It wasn't a harvest meal. A real Thanksgiving was getting the community together because you were thankful for something. They could be rain after a drought or a military victory.

So after the Battle of Saratoga and the Revolution, Sam Adams in Massachusetts declared a day of Thanksgiving. You could have Thanksgiving in April. Your town could have a Thanksgiving. Thomas Jefferson actually declared Thanksgiving when he was governor of Virginia. And it didn't really become a national holiday until Abraham Lincoln declared it.

So after the Battle of Saratoga and the Revolution, Sam Adams in Massachusetts declared a day of Thanksgiving. You could have Thanksgiving in April. Your town could have a Thanksgiving. Thomas Jefferson actually declared Thanksgiving when he was governor of Virginia. And it didn't really become a national holiday until Abraham Lincoln declared it.

I think it would have been like a state dinner. You know, they didn't sign any treaties, but that would have been the point of it.

I think it would have been like a state dinner. You know, they didn't sign any treaties, but that would have been the point of it.

Terrific. Thanks so much, Mike.

Terrific. Thanks so much, Mike.

One of the things that they always ate and ate to excess is pumpkin. Pumpkin was hugely important. New England was the pumpkin dominion. And the first American folk song was written in 1620, and it was about how they ate too much pumpkin all the time.

One of the things that they always ate and ate to excess is pumpkin. Pumpkin was hugely important. New England was the pumpkin dominion. And the first American folk song was written in 1620, and it was about how they ate too much pumpkin all the time.

Thanks, Mike. I'm happy to be on.

We know two things. We know that they had four deer that the natives brought, the 90 natives. And we know that the men went out shooting birds with the natives and the Englishmen. So birds, deer, probably shellfish, probably corn. That's what we know for sure. Lobster maybe.

What's interesting to me, if you call the meeting of indigenous people and English colonists in the early 17th century to eat food in... autumn, if you're going to call that a Thanksgiving, then the pilgrims in 1621 were not the first Thanksgiving. The first Thanksgiving would have been in 1607 in Phippsburg, Maine, where a failed colony was established for about a year.

But the circumstances were very, very similar. The two groups came together basically

it was more of a state dinner than it was a thanksgiving they were negotiating alliances they would trade with each other and they would defend each other against common enemies the food that they ate which we'll get into very soon here but is it the food that they always ate or was this some real special kind of food it was the food they usually ate.

They may have dressed it up a little bit and it would have been plentiful because of the time of year, but it was pretty much what they ate. I was gonna say one of the things that they always ate and they ate to excess and they have eaten it since 1620 and they're still eating it is pumpkin. Pumpkin was hugely important. And you know how we call people in Wisconsin cheese heads?

People used to call New Englanders pumpkin heads. New England was the pumpkin dominion, and the first American folk song was written in 1620, and it was about how they ate too much pumpkin all the time.

Actually, they did know of pumpkin in England, and pumpkin pie was really popular. The Spanish had brought it over. And then it kind of fell out of favor. But it grew well. It was more resistant to deer and insects and fungus and things like that. So I think it was just its hardiness, and it kept for a while.

They tended to stew it. They would do a lot with it, but mostly they'd chop it up and stew it and mix it up with other stuff. I don't know that it was terribly appetizing.

No.

It's pretty nutritious, though.

Well, you know, the natives, they grew what was called the three sisters, the pumpkin or squash, beans and corn, which for some reason having to do with amino acids or carbohydrates or something, I don't know, makes for a very nutritious diet.

no it wasn't for a long time they may have had turkey at the first thanksgiving turkeys are wild turkeys are really stupid birds they roost in the same place all the time so you know if you want dinner you just go get yourself a turkey but in in fact they were so easy to kill that they were obliterated from new england uh probably by the civil war turkey it was a part of the meal and it was something they ate

But chicken pie was the big thing for a long time. And it was a woman named Sarah Josepha Hale, who was a widow with five kids and needed money. So she wrote a book in 1827. It was a novel. I can't think of the name of it, but... She described a Thanksgiving dinner in New England, a classic New England Thanksgiving, which was really at the time only celebrated in New England.

And the book sold well, and she got a job as the editor of what became Godey's Lady's Book, which was this tremendously influential magazine. It was way more influential than Martha Stewart. And she she was an American influencer and she was the one who made turkey the centerpiece of the American meal. And she was also the one she lobbied for a long time to make Thanksgiving a national holiday.

And finally, Abraham Lincoln was the one who said, yeah, OK.

Well, for the pilgrims, it would have been something called nasamp, which was a native kind of a porridge made with cornmeal and nuts, berries, and maybe a sweetener. They probably would have had striped bass, which was a fish that was easy to catch, and that was also sustaining them. Probably would have had shellfish.

They would have had deer probably, and I'm guessing a lot of different kinds of wild fowl. I don't know that they would have had dessert, but they did develop this thing called Indian pudding, which was cornmeal with milk and a sweetener.

Oh, potatoes. Well, in 1620, we're talking about that first Thanksgiving, that first alleged Thanksgiving. They would have known about potatoes, but the potato they would have known about was the sweet potato, which the Spanish had brought to Europe. And it was highly prized because it was believed to be an aphrodisiac. and it was a luxury item.

So some of the pilgrims who were of the gentry would have been familiar with the sweet potato. But the sweet potato didn't come to America, I think, until 1764. The Irish potato didn't come to the United States until 1718, when there were five shiploads of

Scots-Irish who came to Boston, and the Boston Puritans didn't want to have anything to do with them, so they sent them to the New Hampshire frontier. And in what is now Derry, New Hampshire, they planted the first potato, the first Irish potato. And it was viewed as a food for the poor and For pigs and for the Irish, you just didn't eat the potato.

And the French hated the white potato even more. They banned its harvesting or they banned the planting of the potato because they thought that it caused leprosy. But then during the Seven Years' War, around 1755 or so, there was a French pharmacist who was captured by the Germans. And while he was in prison, they made him eat potatoes.

So after he got released, he got really interested in nutrition and he rehabilitated the potato and The French came to embrace the noble spud, and they served Thomas Jefferson French fries in Paris when he was minister to France. And Thomas Jefferson liked the French fries, so he served them at the White House when he was president.

And that's how the white potato became a popular menu item at Thanksgiving.

They would have known about the sweet potato, but they wouldn't have had them here. It was something, you know, it was like a really fancy food.

Oh, they would have had cranberries, definitely. The natives revered the cranberry. In fact, there is a... There are some Wampanoag people who live on Martha's Vineyard. And their Thanksgiving is the second Thursday, I think, in October. And it's Cranberry Day. And the kids get out of school and they eat cranberries. It was very, very useful. It was used as a dye. It was used as a sweetener.

It had medicinal properties.

They would have eaten the three sisters, the pumpkins, the beans, and the squash. Celery is kind of an interesting vegetable because it didn't really come to America until... the American Revolution, the 1770s, and it was It was kind of a fancy food. But think about it. You're celebrating Thanksgiving in late fall and vegetables are mushy, but there's this nice green crisp vegetable.

And for many years, it was the most popular item on U.S. restaurant menus next to coffee and tea.

Well, the people who stick in my mind are the first four women who cooked Thanksgiving. Because after that first winter, there were only four adult women left in Plymouth Colony. And there would have been some 48 others who survived. And 90 Native Americans. So that's cooking for 140 people. Here are these four women who have to pluck all the birds that the men caught.

They probably have to cut up the deer. They have no running water. They've got to cook outside. It just would have been a nightmare. I can't even imagine it. But I can tell you who they were. There was Mary Brewster, who was older. She was in her 50s, and she was the wife of... William Brewster, the spiritual guide.

There was Susanna Winslow, who was the wife of Edward Winslow, who was one of the leaders. And those two were saints, which means they were the Puritans who came for religious reasons. So the other two women were Elizabeth Hopkins and Elizabeth Billington. And the Billingtons were bad news. Her husband, John Billington, was hanged for murder.

Her son was a troublemaker who got lost and nearly started a war between the pilgrims and the natives, and she was whipped for slander. But the one who really interests me is Elizabeth Hopkins. Her husband was Stephen Hopkins, who was in a Shakespeare play.

He had come over to North America one time previously as an indentured servant, and his ship got wrecked, and they lived on Bermuda for nine months, and rebuilt the ship and went to Jamestown. And Shakespeare heard the story and wrote The Tempest. And so Stephen Hopkins, who came back to North America after returning to England, he was Stefano in The Tempest. He was the power-mad butler.

I think there would have been. One thing I'm really unclear about is whether the Native women came because, you know, they might have brought some nasamp or some cornbread or something. There were servants and there were children, and so I think everybody would have been pressed into service. They'd been working together for over a year.

You know, the pilgrims had things that the Indians wanted, guns, for example, or, you know, trade goods, pots. And the natives had something that the pilgrims wanted, which was fur. There was a huge, huge market for beaver fur in Europe. And the natives taught the pilgrims how to fish. So I think it would have been a cooperative effort.

No, they intermingled a lot. As a matter of fact, Edward Winslow, who was the husband of Susanna Winslow, who cooked that dinner, he saved the chief's life at one point. Massasoit had some illness and Edward Winslow came and Honestly, I think he fed him something like chicken soup and did something to save his life. So, yes.

And, of course, Squanto, the native who breeded them, taught them how to grow corn. So they mingled a lot.

It wasn't really Thanksgiving until the 19th century. it was kind of forgotten. And Thanksgiving was something that the English celebrated in England and here. It wasn't a harvest meal. A real Thanksgiving was getting the community together because you were thankful for something. They could be rain after a drought or a military victory.

So after the Battle of Saratoga and the Revolution, Sam Adams in Massachusetts declared a day of Thanksgiving. You could have Thanksgiving in April. Your town could have a Thanksgiving. Thomas Jefferson actually declared Thanksgiving when he was governor of Virginia. And it didn't really become a national holiday until Abraham Lincoln declared it.

I think it would have been like a state dinner. You know, they didn't sign any treaties, but that would have been the point of it.

Terrific. Thanks so much, Mike.

One of the things that they always ate and ate to excess is pumpkin. Pumpkin was hugely important. New England was the pumpkin dominion. And the first American folk song was written in 1620, and it was about how they ate too much pumpkin all the time.