Lulu Garcia Navarro

So from the review of my book, there's been a steady evolution of thought amongst the public, even on Wall Street, about what I've been saying, what the president has been saying, what others in our camp have been saying. And I guess I'm mainstream now. That's scary. Yeah.

So from the review of my book, there's been a steady evolution of thought amongst the public, even on Wall Street, about what I've been saying, what the president has been saying, what others in our camp have been saying. And I guess I'm mainstream now. That's scary. Yeah.

So I'm pleased to see you after four long years of exile.

So I'm pleased to see you after four long years of exile.

Tariffs do not cause inflation when they're imposed by the largest market in the world. And that has been demonstrated by the fact that we aggressively imposed tariffs during the first term. We had zero inflation as a result.

Tariffs do not cause inflation when they're imposed by the largest market in the world. And that has been demonstrated by the fact that we aggressively imposed tariffs during the first term. We had zero inflation as a result.

Let's do this. So who are the studies by?

Let's do this. So who are the studies by?

All the ones that were wrong about Trump, you know, like the biggest... Ones that you don't believe in and that you kind of felt... Well, but I think it's fair, Anna, for you to go back and look at those analyses who said it and then look what they said, for example, when Trump came into office and how they predicted there would be chaos and

All the ones that were wrong about Trump, you know, like the biggest... Ones that you don't believe in and that you kind of felt... Well, but I think it's fair, Anna, for you to go back and look at those analyses who said it and then look what they said, for example, when Trump came into office and how they predicted there would be chaos and

recession, inflation, stagnation that has never happened. I think my point here is that the academic community can't be trusted to critique Trump economics. And they have a credibility problem because they've been crying this wolf. They did it all through the first term. None of that happened. They're just wrong. We're right. They're wrong. End of story.

recession, inflation, stagnation that has never happened. I think my point here is that the academic community can't be trusted to critique Trump economics. And they have a credibility problem because they've been crying this wolf. They did it all through the first term. None of that happened. They're just wrong. We're right. They're wrong. End of story.

I actually listen to The Daily. I have it on my podcast.

I actually listen to The Daily. I have it on my podcast.

It's the American people who've borne the brunt of this for going on, what, 40 years now. How many times do you have to be told by politicians and corporate flacks that this free trade stuff's good for you? And then you lose your job and your community falls down around you for you to stop believing them. I mean, you know, that's why Trump got elected in 2016.

It's the American people who've borne the brunt of this for going on, what, 40 years now. How many times do you have to be told by politicians and corporate flacks that this free trade stuff's good for you? And then you lose your job and your community falls down around you for you to stop believing them. I mean, you know, that's why Trump got elected in 2016.

All right, let's walk through that, okay? There's a rhyme to the reason why we did that.

All right, let's walk through that, okay? There's a rhyme to the reason why we did that.

Here's the thing. We are the biggest market in the world. which gives us buying power, okay? So particularly export-dependent economies, the Chinas of this world, who heavily rely on Americans buying their products, if that becomes more difficult to do, what's the first thing these countries are going to do in response to tariffs? What are they going to do? We slap a tariff on.

Here's the thing. We are the biggest market in the world. which gives us buying power, okay? So particularly export-dependent economies, the Chinas of this world, who heavily rely on Americans buying their products, if that becomes more difficult to do, what's the first thing these countries are going to do in response to tariffs? What are they going to do? We slap a tariff on.

What are the producers over there going to do? What are they going to do? Tell me.

What are the producers over there going to do? What are they going to do? Tell me.

You're a producer over there, and suddenly tariffs are up, and you've got to compete with an American producer. What are you going to do?

You're a producer over there, and suddenly tariffs are up, and you've got to compete with an American producer. What are you going to do?

That's exactly what they do. It's not an assumption. That's just a fact.

That's exactly what they do. It's not an assumption. That's just a fact.

So here's one of the iron laws of manufacturing. If manufacturing goes abroad, the supply chains follow and vice versa. Okay.

So here's one of the iron laws of manufacturing. If manufacturing goes abroad, the supply chains follow and vice versa. Okay.

So you want us here? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So you want us here? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You can have a domestic investment come quickly.

You can have a domestic investment come quickly.

You see wages go up, and that gives consumers more spending power and offsets any rise in prices. If real wages rise faster than any other types of inflation, people are still better off.

You see wages go up, and that gives consumers more spending power and offsets any rise in prices. If real wages rise faster than any other types of inflation, people are still better off.

When I was a campaign advisor in 2016, I had a mantra. It was tax cuts, deregulation, strategic energy dominance, fair trade. Those were the four components, the tires on the car towards economic prosperity.

When I was a campaign advisor in 2016, I had a mantra. It was tax cuts, deregulation, strategic energy dominance, fair trade. Those were the four components, the tires on the car towards economic prosperity.

that we're trying to accomplish, that President Trump is trying to accomplish, is more stable and resilient supply chains, which we have learned to be an enormous problem in the wake of the pandemic. So that's a major national security and economic security risk.

that we're trying to accomplish, that President Trump is trying to accomplish, is more stable and resilient supply chains, which we have learned to be an enormous problem in the wake of the pandemic. So that's a major national security and economic security risk.

We get screwed. by everyone and we could afford it in the 1950s. We can't afford it. That's the thing the rest of the world needs to understand. It's like when they want to come to Uncle Sam for support, for democracy, if we don't have manufacturing in the defense industrial base because it all got exported because people are cheating us on trade, We're not going to be there.

We get screwed. by everyone and we could afford it in the 1950s. We can't afford it. That's the thing the rest of the world needs to understand. It's like when they want to come to Uncle Sam for support, for democracy, if we don't have manufacturing in the defense industrial base because it all got exported because people are cheating us on trade, We're not going to be there.

And that's why in the first term when President Trump said economic security is national security, it was a very important message and foundation for the way we here in Trump land think about things.

And that's why in the first term when President Trump said economic security is national security, it was a very important message and foundation for the way we here in Trump land think about things.

It's not going to be painful for America. It's going to be a beautiful thing. President Donald John Trump has proven that tariffs work for the American people. And they're going to be even more, much more important this second term. This is all set in motion now, Ana. So... Stay tuned.

It's not going to be painful for America. It's going to be a beautiful thing. President Donald John Trump has proven that tariffs work for the American people. And they're going to be even more, much more important this second term. This is all set in motion now, Ana. So... Stay tuned.

The... It went from being kind of a Democrat to being a Trump Republican. And the reality is that there's not much difference between that. The traditional Democratic Party was a lot like MAGA in that it was the party of the working class, American manufacturing, blue collar workers. The goal of that party, at least what it said it was, was to

The... It went from being kind of a Democrat to being a Trump Republican. And the reality is that there's not much difference between that. The traditional Democratic Party was a lot like MAGA in that it was the party of the working class, American manufacturing, blue collar workers. The goal of that party, at least what it said it was, was to

Increase the real wages and prosperity of blue collar workers. And I was very comfortable with that. I grew up in a single family household with my mom. We had a hard life. And I identify to this day with the working class.

Increase the real wages and prosperity of blue collar workers. And I was very comfortable with that. I grew up in a single family household with my mom. We had a hard life. And I identify to this day with the working class.

I became really intrigued by Thailand and one day as I was thinking that maybe I should go there.

I became really intrigued by Thailand and one day as I was thinking that maybe I should go there.

And I looked over and it was the Peace Corps table.

And I looked over and it was the Peace Corps table.

Of course, I had to say yes because of the synchronicity of the whole thing. I don't want to get too Californian on you, but that was an interesting moment.

Of course, I had to say yes because of the synchronicity of the whole thing. I don't want to get too Californian on you, but that was an interesting moment.

I mean, the whole ability to see the world from outside the United States, it makes you very humble. And when I came back, it motivated me to go into policy.

I mean, the whole ability to see the world from outside the United States, it makes you very humble. And when I came back, it motivated me to go into policy.

My only goal as mayor was to address the problems of traffic congestion, the overcrowded schools. the awful sewage system. I mean, it was a populist campaign, just at the local level on a different set of issues. I mean, I sometimes joke I was like mini-Trump before Trump.

My only goal as mayor was to address the problems of traffic congestion, the overcrowded schools. the awful sewage system. I mean, it was a populist campaign, just at the local level on a different set of issues. I mean, I sometimes joke I was like mini-Trump before Trump.

I was the macroeconomist teaching business students how to forecast the economy. And in about 2002 and 2003, I began to notice that the business students who were in the fully employed program were losing their jobs. And it was like, what's going on here?

I was the macroeconomist teaching business students how to forecast the economy. And in about 2002 and 2003, I began to notice that the business students who were in the fully employed program were losing their jobs. And it was like, what's going on here?

It wasn't simply...

It wasn't simply...

Like currency manipulation, like counterfeiting and piracy, the use of pollution havens, things like that.

Like currency manipulation, like counterfeiting and piracy, the use of pollution havens, things like that.

Oh, it's just, you know, it's just radical, crazy guy, you know, this kind of thing, right? And I thought, look, these people don't get it, except among all of the corporations and unions and plain old folk that were getting just hammered by that. It's like, okay, let's keep going on this. And I'm thinking, you know what? People...

Oh, it's just, you know, it's just radical, crazy guy, you know, this kind of thing, right? And I thought, look, these people don't get it, except among all of the corporations and unions and plain old folk that were getting just hammered by that. It's like, okay, let's keep going on this. And I'm thinking, you know what? People...

read books but not a lot of them anymore so let's do the movie and then he also creates a documentary which is narrated by martin sheen and it was the same kind of reaction hollywood and it's like oh you're exaggerating stuff

read books but not a lot of them anymore so let's do the movie and then he also creates a documentary which is narrated by martin sheen and it was the same kind of reaction hollywood and it's like oh you're exaggerating stuff

When I did my Death by China movie I went to Dayton and I saw the people who would otherwise be in factories walking around with shopping carts, stealing copper out of homes and buildings, whatever they could, and then going and using the money to get high.

When I did my Death by China movie I went to Dayton and I saw the people who would otherwise be in factories walking around with shopping carts, stealing copper out of homes and buildings, whatever they could, and then going and using the money to get high.

President Trump, the way we intersected was through an interview, interestingly enough, that he did for the Los Angeles Times in 2011.

President Trump, the way we intersected was through an interview, interestingly enough, that he did for the Los Angeles Times in 2011.

And he proceeded to do something I'm not sure I could even do. He listed his top 10 books by title and author. And I was number six, the Coming China Award.

And he proceeded to do something I'm not sure I could even do. He listed his top 10 books by title and author. And I was number six, the Coming China Award.

What I try to do is see problems and solve them. And the problem I saw crystal clear is the unfair trade that was driving up these large trade deficits. and shutting down our factories and creating just all sorts of misery for blue-collar workers.

What I try to do is see problems and solve them. And the problem I saw crystal clear is the unfair trade that was driving up these large trade deficits. and shutting down our factories and creating just all sorts of misery for blue-collar workers.

It was always the same, like Mnuchin and Cohn and Kudlow and all these people, they just didn't buy in. And the defining moment for me in terms of when I finally was able to, um, began doing what the president wanted me to do, it was about four months in, and he made the famous where's my Peter call.

It was always the same, like Mnuchin and Cohn and Kudlow and all these people, they just didn't buy in. And the defining moment for me in terms of when I finally was able to, um, began doing what the president wanted me to do, it was about four months in, and he made the famous where's my Peter call.

It's like he's sitting around with these guys, four months in, nothing's happening at all, and he goes, where's my Peter? I go over there, and I have this like battle with Cohn and whatever, and then some months later, I'm able with Wilbur Ross to get the steel and aluminum tariffs in, and Cohn leaves like a crying little baby in a huff.

It's like he's sitting around with these guys, four months in, nothing's happening at all, and he goes, where's my Peter? I go over there, and I have this like battle with Cohn and whatever, and then some months later, I'm able with Wilbur Ross to get the steel and aluminum tariffs in, and Cohn leaves like a crying little baby in a huff.

So just to clarify, I went to prison not because I didn't want to cooperate with an investigation, but because it was my duty— as a senior White House official, to refuse to appear when issued an unlawful congressional subpoena. That case is being litigated. It was unfortunate. They put me in prison until they should have waited until my appeal ran its course.

So just to clarify, I went to prison not because I didn't want to cooperate with an investigation, but because it was my duty— as a senior White House official, to refuse to appear when issued an unlawful congressional subpoena. That case is being litigated. It was unfortunate. They put me in prison until they should have waited until my appeal ran its course.

But I want to be really clear about why I went to prison. I was defending the Constitution. Now, to your point,

But I want to be really clear about why I went to prison. I was defending the Constitution. Now, to your point,

All right. I want to talk a little bit about the Democrat strategy more broadly. Last month, you said in an interview that Trump will screw up.

All right. I want to talk a little bit about the Democrat strategy more broadly. Last month, you said in an interview that Trump will screw up.

Do you really think, though, that there's something that will move the needle for either Republican legislators or voters? I ask because that feels like a familiar argument against the president. Surely this will be the final straw for someone.

Do you really think, though, that there's something that will move the needle for either Republican legislators or voters? I ask because that feels like a familiar argument against the president. Surely this will be the final straw for someone.

I'm sure. Yes, it's not a sight you want to see. Before we move on from this, I do want to ask you about the last election, especially around President Biden's decision to run for a second term. Yes. Did you know about President Biden's declining faculties before that disastrous debate?

I'm sure. Yes, it's not a sight you want to see. Before we move on from this, I do want to ask you about the last election, especially around President Biden's decision to run for a second term. Yes. Did you know about President Biden's declining faculties before that disastrous debate?

And if you didn't know, why didn't you know? Was it because they were keeping him secluded?

And if you didn't know, why didn't you know? Was it because they were keeping him secluded?

There have been allegations of a cover-up. What do you say to those allegations?

There have been allegations of a cover-up. What do you say to those allegations?

I want to come back to your book. That's good. Senator, Jews in America have always been closely allied to the Democratic Party. Yes. But Trump in this past election clearly saw an opening to win some of them over. And it does seem like the events of the past year and a half have shifted things for American Jews.

I want to come back to your book. That's good. Senator, Jews in America have always been closely allied to the Democratic Party. Yes. But Trump in this past election clearly saw an opening to win some of them over. And it does seem like the events of the past year and a half have shifted things for American Jews.

Do you think the political landscape has changed in any lasting way when you look at sort of that alliance?

Do you think the political landscape has changed in any lasting way when you look at sort of that alliance?

And it cost him.

And it cost him.

There is this big debate, though, about where the line is between anti-Semitism and legitimate criticism of Israel's government. I mean, where is that line for you?

There is this big debate, though, about where the line is between anti-Semitism and legitimate criticism of Israel's government. I mean, where is that line for you?

I know.

I know.

No, please.

No, please.

Okay.

Okay.

I can see how passionate you feel about this issue.

I can see how passionate you feel about this issue.

I will say it's a word that a UN special committee has used.

I will say it's a word that a UN special committee has used.

I'm curious how you think about how protests then should be addressed, considering the context of what you just said. The Trump administration just announced they're pulling $400 million in funding from Columbia University, giving the reason is, quote, relentless violence, intimidation and anti-Semitic harassment. I'm wondering what you make of that.

I'm curious how you think about how protests then should be addressed, considering the context of what you just said. The Trump administration just announced they're pulling $400 million in funding from Columbia University, giving the reason is, quote, relentless violence, intimidation and anti-Semitic harassment. I'm wondering what you make of that.

And what do you make of what happened over the weekend when ICE arrested Mahmoud Khalil, a Columbia graduate who is Palestinian, an activist, and a green card holder, who was one of the few participants in last year's campus protest to identify himself publicly? And apparently Trump has made good on his campaign pledge and is set to deport him because of his participation.

And what do you make of what happened over the weekend when ICE arrested Mahmoud Khalil, a Columbia graduate who is Palestinian, an activist, and a green card holder, who was one of the few participants in last year's campus protest to identify himself publicly? And apparently Trump has made good on his campaign pledge and is set to deport him because of his participation.

What does breaking the law mean to you in this context?

What does breaking the law mean to you in this context?

That sounds easy, but when we're talking about the right to protest, which you were a part of, breaking the law, not breaking the law, those things can be weaponized for political purposes, right? You can arrest political protesters, put them in prison, but they're actually taking part in what is their constitutionally protected right.

That sounds easy, but when we're talking about the right to protest, which you were a part of, breaking the law, not breaking the law, those things can be weaponized for political purposes, right? You can arrest political protesters, put them in prison, but they're actually taking part in what is their constitutionally protected right.

I want to ask about your own state, which has been seen as a bit of a bellwether these days for some of the political currents in the country. As you know, this past election, Trump improved on his 2020 numbers by six points in New York State, including a seven-point shift in New York City. What do you make of that drift?

I want to ask about your own state, which has been seen as a bit of a bellwether these days for some of the political currents in the country. As you know, this past election, Trump improved on his 2020 numbers by six points in New York State, including a seven-point shift in New York City. What do you make of that drift?

Throughout your career, you've talked about this fictional couple.

Throughout your career, you've talked about this fictional couple.

The Bailey's, Joe and Eileen. And you think of them as sort of your representative voter, constituent. You said the Bailey's voted for Trump in 2016. They split Trump-Biden in 2020. I'm wondering who they voted for in 2024.

The Bailey's, Joe and Eileen. And you think of them as sort of your representative voter, constituent. You said the Bailey's voted for Trump in 2016. They split Trump-Biden in 2020. I'm wondering who they voted for in 2024.

So what do you got to do to get them back?

So what do you got to do to get them back?

The direction of his party, how Democrats are communicating their opposition to President Trump, and also, on a more personal note, his fears about the rise of anti-Semitism in America. Schumer's written a new book on that topic. It's called Anti-Semitism in America, A Warning. It's part history, part memoir.

The direction of his party, how Democrats are communicating their opposition to President Trump, and also, on a more personal note, his fears about the rise of anti-Semitism in America. Schumer's written a new book on that topic. It's called Anti-Semitism in America, A Warning. It's part history, part memoir.

I mean, little things— But there's also cultural issues, aren't there?

I mean, little things— But there's also cultural issues, aren't there?

Well, it brings me to Mayor Eric Adams, the embattled mayor of New York City. He was indicted last year on federal charges of bribery and fraud, among other things. February, the Trump administration directed prosecutors to dismiss the charges against him in an apparent quid pro quo, leading to these extraordinary series of resignations at the Justice Department and the U.S. Attorney's Office.

Well, it brings me to Mayor Eric Adams, the embattled mayor of New York City. He was indicted last year on federal charges of bribery and fraud, among other things. February, the Trump administration directed prosecutors to dismiss the charges against him in an apparent quid pro quo, leading to these extraordinary series of resignations at the Justice Department and the U.S. Attorney's Office.

Do you think Eric Adams should resign?

Do you think Eric Adams should resign?

I am.

I am.

Well, but Eric Adams is a sitting mayor. So this isn't about a primary. This is about someone who is going through very serious allegations against him and the Trump administration getting involved in that.

Well, but Eric Adams is a sitting mayor. So this isn't about a primary. This is about someone who is going through very serious allegations against him and the Trump administration getting involved in that.

And it's your home state.

And it's your home state.

All right. Let me ask you this about Andrew Cuomo. Just in this way, he obviously is another very controversial figure in democratic politics in your state. And he recently entered the New York City mayoral race. So it brings up a philosophical question about his candidacy, which is not really about him, but the kind of politician that he is.

All right. Let me ask you this about Andrew Cuomo. Just in this way, he obviously is another very controversial figure in democratic politics in your state. And he recently entered the New York City mayoral race. So it brings up a philosophical question about his candidacy, which is not really about him, but the kind of politician that he is.

No. Because I think there's a wider issue here, which is he's pulling far ahead of the rest of the pack at this point. And I wonder what you think his popularity says about what kind of Democrat voters can get behind right now. I mean, do Democrats need to run candidates that are more like Trump?

No. Because I think there's a wider issue here, which is he's pulling far ahead of the rest of the pack at this point. And I wonder what you think his popularity says about what kind of Democrat voters can get behind right now. I mean, do Democrats need to run candidates that are more like Trump?

you know

you know

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

From The New York Times, this is The Interview. I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro. I spoke to Senator Chuck Schumer of New York twice last week, in what turned out to be quite a week for the Senate minority leader. In our first conversation, we talked about a lot of things.

From The New York Times, this is The Interview. I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro. I spoke to Senator Chuck Schumer of New York twice last week, in what turned out to be quite a week for the Senate minority leader. In our first conversation, we talked about a lot of things.

Since our first conversation, Senator Schumer has released a statement about Mahmoud Khalil, writing that if the Trump administration's Department of Homeland Security can't show that there are criminal charges against Khalil, they are violating the First Amendment and should let him go. This conversation was produced by Seth Kelly. It was edited by Annabelle Bacon. Mixing by Sophia Landman.

Since our first conversation, Senator Schumer has released a statement about Mahmoud Khalil, writing that if the Trump administration's Department of Homeland Security can't show that there are criminal charges against Khalil, they are violating the First Amendment and should let him go. This conversation was produced by Seth Kelly. It was edited by Annabelle Bacon. Mixing by Sophia Landman.

Original music by Dan Powell and Marion Lozano. Photography by Philip Montgomery. Our senior booker is Priya Matthew. And Wyatt Orme is our producer. Our executive producer is Alison Benedict. Special thanks to Reid Epstein, Afim Shapiro, Rory Walsh, Renan Borelli, Jeffrey Miranda, Maddy Macielo, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schumann, and Sam Dolnik.

Original music by Dan Powell and Marion Lozano. Photography by Philip Montgomery. Our senior booker is Priya Matthew. And Wyatt Orme is our producer. Our executive producer is Alison Benedict. Special thanks to Reid Epstein, Afim Shapiro, Rory Walsh, Renan Borelli, Jeffrey Miranda, Maddy Macielo, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schumann, and Sam Dolnik.

If you like what you're hearing, follow or subscribe to The Interview wherever you get your podcasts. To read or listen to any of our conversations, you can always go to nytimes.com slash theinterview. And you can email us anytime at theinterview at nytimes.com.

If you like what you're hearing, follow or subscribe to The Interview wherever you get your podcasts. To read or listen to any of our conversations, you can always go to nytimes.com slash theinterview. And you can email us anytime at theinterview at nytimes.com.

Next week, David talks to Dr. Lindsay Gibson, author of the book Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents, which has gone viral on social media.

Next week, David talks to Dr. Lindsay Gibson, author of the book Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents, which has gone viral on social media.

I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro, and this is The Interview from The New York Times.

I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro, and this is The Interview from The New York Times.

I'm also not sure that everyone understands the important relationship between Jews and the United States itself. What did you want people to understand about the way American Jews feel about their place here and the way that that's changing?

I'm also not sure that everyone understands the important relationship between Jews and the United States itself. What did you want people to understand about the way American Jews feel about their place here and the way that that's changing?

I hope I did. You did write it in your book, but it's true. It is a very good summation of Jewish holidays. You know, we seem to be at a moment in American life where issues of identity have become very charged. When you were entering politics, how did you navigate how much to make Jewishness part of your brand in your life? Not that much.

I hope I did. You did write it in your book, but it's true. It is a very good summation of Jewish holidays. You know, we seem to be at a moment in American life where issues of identity have become very charged. When you were entering politics, how did you navigate how much to make Jewishness part of your brand in your life? Not that much.

And in it, he tracks the long record of prejudice against Jews in the world and its recent surge here at home. That was Monday. When we spoke again on Saturday afternoon, it was after an extraordinary few days in Congress where Democrats had to decide whether or not to vote for a Republican federal spending bill or allow a government shutdown.

And in it, he tracks the long record of prejudice against Jews in the world and its recent surge here at home. That was Monday. When we spoke again on Saturday afternoon, it was after an extraordinary few days in Congress where Democrats had to decide whether or not to vote for a Republican federal spending bill or allow a government shutdown.

Who was that?

Who was that?

You just mentioned this idea of inauthenticity when you were talking about recruiting. And you wrote that in the book. You said voters can smell inauthenticity the way bloodhounds track assent. Yeah. And it did bring to mind the situation Democrats find themselves in at the moment. Do Democrats have an authenticity problem?

You just mentioned this idea of inauthenticity when you were talking about recruiting. And you wrote that in the book. You said voters can smell inauthenticity the way bloodhounds track assent. Yeah. And it did bring to mind the situation Democrats find themselves in at the moment. Do Democrats have an authenticity problem?

But you know that's not how the American people views the Democratic Party right now.

But you know that's not how the American people views the Democratic Party right now.

I've heard this from Democrats before, though. This isn't new. I mean, I think that that is something that has always been the rallying cry of Democrats against Republicans.

I've heard this from Democrats before, though. This isn't new. I mean, I think that that is something that has always been the rallying cry of Democrats against Republicans.

House Democrats had voted in near unanimity against the bill. Schumer initially said that he would as well, but in a shocking about-face on Friday, he joined Republicans and it passed. The aftermath has been brutal and led to open warfare in the party and questions about Schumer's future as its leader. So when I called him back, we had a lot to discuss.

House Democrats had voted in near unanimity against the bill. Schumer initially said that he would as well, but in a shocking about-face on Friday, he joined Republicans and it passed. The aftermath has been brutal and led to open warfare in the party and questions about Schumer's future as its leader. So when I called him back, we had a lot to discuss.

I am glad you brought this up. What I'm hearing you say is that you need to get back to the original message that Democrats have had.

I am glad you brought this up. What I'm hearing you say is that you need to get back to the original message that Democrats have had.

There is a sense, though, that whatever messaging Democrats are doing right now is either too little, too late, or, to use a little bit of Internet speak, a little cringe. I mean, I've noticed a discernible increase in the way party leadership, including you, is attempting to use social media since the election. Yeah, you are. With more direct-to-camera videos, more explainers.

There is a sense, though, that whatever messaging Democrats are doing right now is either too little, too late, or, to use a little bit of Internet speak, a little cringe. I mean, I've noticed a discernible increase in the way party leadership, including you, is attempting to use social media since the election. Yeah, you are. With more direct-to-camera videos, more explainers.

It feels so that it's coming from consultants. I use that word again, authenticity, isn't it?

It feels so that it's coming from consultants. I use that word again, authenticity, isn't it?

So all these things helped them win.

So all these things helped them win.

As you know, you got a rough ride because of your protests that you had. I know.

As you know, you got a rough ride because of your protests that you had. I know.

What did you think about that? Whose idea was that?

What did you think about that? Whose idea was that?

Here are my two conversations with Senator Chuck Schumer. Senator Schumer, in your book, you write that you rarely faced anti-Semitism when you were growing up in Brooklyn. What was the moment that you felt that things changed in this country that made you want to write the book now?

Here are my two conversations with Senator Chuck Schumer. Senator Schumer, in your book, you write that you rarely faced anti-Semitism when you were growing up in Brooklyn. What was the moment that you felt that things changed in this country that made you want to write the book now?

Former Ohio Representative Tim Ryan called it depressing, wrote it on X. Is it Saturday Night Live or Real Life?

Former Ohio Representative Tim Ryan called it depressing, wrote it on X. Is it Saturday Night Live or Real Life?

I guess it brings in just this wider concern that I've heard from Democratic voters. You know, there's real grief, anxiety, worry. I don't have to tell you that. And many feel that Democratic leadership are operating with an old playbook.

I guess it brings in just this wider concern that I've heard from Democratic voters. You know, there's real grief, anxiety, worry. I don't have to tell you that. And many feel that Democratic leadership are operating with an old playbook.

You describe yourself as an institutionalist. You've been a Democratic leader through a period of American politics, though, where the rules were understood. Politicians on both sides of the aisle operated under mostly agreed-upon norms. Yes. And I think it's fair to say that that no longer feels true.

You describe yourself as an institutionalist. You've been a Democratic leader through a period of American politics, though, where the rules were understood. Politicians on both sides of the aisle operated under mostly agreed-upon norms. Yes. And I think it's fair to say that that no longer feels true.

So are you the right person to lead the party at this moment as someone who basically championed the rules-based order, which is now fundamentally offensive?

So are you the right person to lead the party at this moment as someone who basically championed the rules-based order, which is now fundamentally offensive?

It's interesting. What I'm hearing you say is that Ukraine's fate will no longer rest in its major supporter, the United States. You see it as resting elsewhere, Europe, etc.

It's interesting. What I'm hearing you say is that Ukraine's fate will no longer rest in its major supporter, the United States. You see it as resting elsewhere, Europe, etc.

Well, let me pick up on something that you said and the idea of this interregnum that you have had of picking up from Trump and handing back to Trump because this is one of the conflicts that will be handed back to Trump. And his approach to foreign policy writ large seems to be to avoid engaging militarily while wanting the world to be scared of us.

Well, let me pick up on something that you said and the idea of this interregnum that you have had of picking up from Trump and handing back to Trump because this is one of the conflicts that will be handed back to Trump. And his approach to foreign policy writ large seems to be to avoid engaging militarily while wanting the world to be scared of us.

He doesn't seem terribly interested in the work of diplomacy. I'm curious both how you would define that foreign policy philosophy and what you think of that approach.

He doesn't seem terribly interested in the work of diplomacy. I'm curious both how you would define that foreign policy philosophy and what you think of that approach.

Your tenure has been an unprecedented interregnum, if you will. Have you thought about what a strange position that is to be in?

Your tenure has been an unprecedented interregnum, if you will. Have you thought about what a strange position that is to be in?

I mean, it's not that he wants to stand back. It's that he uses other methods to make countries bend to America's will. You're seeing some of these actions.

I mean, it's not that he wants to stand back. It's that he uses other methods to make countries bend to America's will. You're seeing some of these actions.

So do you think then that President-elect Trump's plan to place heavy tariffs on Chinese goods up to possibly 60 percent blanket tariffs, also to place tariffs on our allies, Canada and other countries, is that misguided? Yeah.

So do you think then that President-elect Trump's plan to place heavy tariffs on Chinese goods up to possibly 60 percent blanket tariffs, also to place tariffs on our allies, Canada and other countries, is that misguided? Yeah.

Yes, the Biden administration had their own.

Yes, the Biden administration had their own.

Just one last question on China. You know, one of the things that I have been curious about is – How the world sees the whiplash of our foreign policy just changing from one administration to the other so dramatically. You know, how do you think China, for example, sees our increasingly inconsistent foreign policy during the last decade that has seemed to just go from one extreme to the other?

Just one last question on China. You know, one of the things that I have been curious about is – How the world sees the whiplash of our foreign policy just changing from one administration to the other so dramatically. You know, how do you think China, for example, sees our increasingly inconsistent foreign policy during the last decade that has seemed to just go from one extreme to the other?

Are they exploiting it or are they concerned about it?

Are they exploiting it or are they concerned about it?

After the break, I talk with Secretary Blinken about the war in Gaza.

After the break, I talk with Secretary Blinken about the war in Gaza.

I do want to turn to what has become the defining crisis of this era, which is the conflict in Gaza. You came in thinking you could broker a historic agreement between Saudi Arabia and Israel. And then Hamas attacked Israel on October 7th with the horrific results which we saw. And Israel's response has been extreme. The latest UN figures put the Palestinian death toll at 45,000.

I do want to turn to what has become the defining crisis of this era, which is the conflict in Gaza. You came in thinking you could broker a historic agreement between Saudi Arabia and Israel. And then Hamas attacked Israel on October 7th with the horrific results which we saw. And Israel's response has been extreme. The latest UN figures put the Palestinian death toll at 45,000.

Over 90% of Gaza's population is now displaced. The population is starving. All hospitals have been destroyed. In November, a UN committee released a report that found Israel's warfare practices, quote, "...consistent with the characteristics of genocide." I know you don't agree with that estimation, but do you believe that Israel's actions have been consistent with the rules of war?

Over 90% of Gaza's population is now displaced. The population is starving. All hospitals have been destroyed. In November, a UN committee released a report that found Israel's warfare practices, quote, "...consistent with the characteristics of genocide." I know you don't agree with that estimation, but do you believe that Israel's actions have been consistent with the rules of war?

While destroying the territory. I mean, there's huge suffering.

While destroying the territory. I mean, there's huge suffering.

I mean, even Israel's former defense minister, Moshe Alon, referred to what's happening in Gaza as war crimes and ethnic cleansing. I mean, this is internal criticism. This is not external. So I guess I would repeat the question and ask you, has Israel respected the rules of war in Gaza?

I mean, even Israel's former defense minister, Moshe Alon, referred to what's happening in Gaza as war crimes and ethnic cleansing. I mean, this is internal criticism. This is not external. So I guess I would repeat the question and ask you, has Israel respected the rules of war in Gaza?

Thinking back to when you first came into office, you know, President Biden painted a portrait of a world that was seeing a sort of battle between democracy and autocracy, a phrase that was repeatedly used. Yet at home, voters have been skeptical of that fight. Many voters bought into Trump's vision of an America that should be less involved in the world.

Thinking back to when you first came into office, you know, President Biden painted a portrait of a world that was seeing a sort of battle between democracy and autocracy, a phrase that was repeatedly used. Yet at home, voters have been skeptical of that fight. Many voters bought into Trump's vision of an America that should be less involved in the world.

Because as you know, withholding food aid is considered a war crime. And so what you're saying to me is that actually they didn't want to even provide food.

Because as you know, withholding food aid is considered a war crime. And so what you're saying to me is that actually they didn't want to even provide food.

You know, what we've seen in Gaza is fairly indiscriminate. We have seen reporting of absolute devastation, entire areas flattened. And at the crux of this, of course, is the fact that the United States provides so many of these weapons to Israel. The 2,000-pound bombs that have killed Palestinian civilians, they get vetted through the State Department.

You know, what we've seen in Gaza is fairly indiscriminate. We have seen reporting of absolute devastation, entire areas flattened. And at the crux of this, of course, is the fact that the United States provides so many of these weapons to Israel. The 2,000-pound bombs that have killed Palestinian civilians, they get vetted through the State Department.

And I know that the administration's been struggling with this the whole way through. But where we are now is that the war is still being prosecuted. Hamas is no longer deemed a threat in the way that it was. And the population has been completely decimated. So I'm curious, why still provide these weapons to Israel?

And I know that the administration's been struggling with this the whole way through. But where we are now is that the war is still being prosecuted. Hamas is no longer deemed a threat in the way that it was. And the population has been completely decimated. So I'm curious, why still provide these weapons to Israel?

Well, there were moments when it seemed you were trying to draw red lines in public, telling Israel not to go into Rafah, for example. And then they did.

Well, there were moments when it seemed you were trying to draw red lines in public, telling Israel not to go into Rafah, for example. And then they did.

Benjamin Netanyahu never seemed to listen to you, though.

Benjamin Netanyahu never seemed to listen to you, though.

Why don't you think that the Biden administration and you in particular were able to convince voters of the benefit of what you have been endeavoring to do these past few years?

Why don't you think that the Biden administration and you in particular were able to convince voters of the benefit of what you have been endeavoring to do these past few years?

Did you have a partner in Benjamin Netanyahu? Because it was reported that he blocked a ceasefire deal in July that would have led to the hostages being released. Is that true?

Did you have a partner in Benjamin Netanyahu? Because it was reported that he blocked a ceasefire deal in July that would have led to the hostages being released. Is that true?

I do want to ask you about your own standing in the department that you lead because you've had a series of very public defections over the conduct at the State Department over Gaza. The latest to speak out is Mike Casey, who was the State Department's deputy political counselor on Gaza and resigned in July.

I do want to ask you about your own standing in the department that you lead because you've had a series of very public defections over the conduct at the State Department over Gaza. The latest to speak out is Mike Casey, who was the State Department's deputy political counselor on Gaza and resigned in July.

He recently talked to The Guardian about his tenure, and he claimed that the State Department frequently rolled over for Israel, that no one would read his reports on civilian casualties. He said that he and his colleagues would joke that they could staple cash to the reports, and still they would fall on deaf ears. That's very dark. How do you respond to that?

He recently talked to The Guardian about his tenure, and he claimed that the State Department frequently rolled over for Israel, that no one would read his reports on civilian casualties. He said that he and his colleagues would joke that they could staple cash to the reports, and still they would fall on deaf ears. That's very dark. How do you respond to that?

Do you think there's still hostages alive?

Do you think there's still hostages alive?

Do you, Secretary Blinken, worry that perhaps you have been presiding over what the world will see as a genocide?

Do you, Secretary Blinken, worry that perhaps you have been presiding over what the world will see as a genocide?

Your tenure, as we've said, has been filled with many complicated conflicts. At the same time, there's been a lot of reporting on President Biden's declining abilities over the course of his term. You are one of the closest people to him. You have worked with him for decades. By some accounts, he considers you a surrogate son.

Your tenure, as we've said, has been filled with many complicated conflicts. At the same time, there's been a lot of reporting on President Biden's declining abilities over the course of his term. You are one of the closest people to him. You have worked with him for decades. By some accounts, he considers you a surrogate son.

This is a delicate question to ask, but I do feel that many Americans want to understand that. If you saw changes from the man that you knew so well.

This is a delicate question to ask, but I do feel that many Americans want to understand that. If you saw changes from the man that you knew so well.

Last summer, my colleague Robert Draper reported that people in the diplomatic corps worried that the president's memory, for example, was showing signs of slipping while he was meeting with foreign leaders.

Last summer, my colleague Robert Draper reported that people in the diplomatic corps worried that the president's memory, for example, was showing signs of slipping while he was meeting with foreign leaders.

On a personal note, your own story is very much defined by this fight against autocracy. Your stepfather was a Holocaust survivor who was saved from the death camps by American soldiers. It's an incredible story. You've said that you learned lessons from him about what our country is and what it represents and what it means when the United States is engaged in leading the

On a personal note, your own story is very much defined by this fight against autocracy. Your stepfather was a Holocaust survivor who was saved from the death camps by American soldiers. It's an incredible story. You've said that you learned lessons from him about what our country is and what it represents and what it means when the United States is engaged in leading the

So you don't believe that the election was a repudiation of the vision of President Biden and your vision in particular? Because, you know, obviously, President-elect Trump has a very different idea of how to engage in the world.

So you don't believe that the election was a repudiation of the vision of President Biden and your vision in particular? Because, you know, obviously, President-elect Trump has a very different idea of how to engage in the world.

And I'm wondering, as you look at the end of your tenure, as you've been leading over the last four years, and you're handing off, as we've discussed, many of these conflicts that are still unresolved, and you have come under a lot of criticism, do his lessons strike you differently now than they did before that you've been through the fire, so you will, of really being the person at the forefront of making these very, very difficult choices?

And I'm wondering, as you look at the end of your tenure, as you've been leading over the last four years, and you're handing off, as we've discussed, many of these conflicts that are still unresolved, and you have come under a lot of criticism, do his lessons strike you differently now than they did before that you've been through the fire, so you will, of really being the person at the forefront of making these very, very difficult choices?

The message to America's allies and enemies alike was that a new era of stability was at hand. Instead, the world blew up. Secretary Blinken was beset by an escalating series of international crises almost from the beginning, from the Afghanistan withdrawal to Russia's invasion of Ukraine to Hamas's attack on Israel and the subsequent war in Gaza and conflict in the wider Middle East.

The message to America's allies and enemies alike was that a new era of stability was at hand. Instead, the world blew up. Secretary Blinken was beset by an escalating series of international crises almost from the beginning, from the Afghanistan withdrawal to Russia's invasion of Ukraine to Hamas's attack on Israel and the subsequent war in Gaza and conflict in the wider Middle East.

Secretary, thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it.

Secretary, thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it.

That's outgoing Secretary of State Antony Blinken. This conversation was produced by Elisa Gutierrez. It was edited by Annabel Bacon, mixing by Sophia Landman. Original music by Dan Powell and Marion Lozano. Photography by Philip Montgomery. The rest of the team is Wyatt Orem, Seth Kelly, and Priya Matthew. Our executive producer is Alison Benedict.

That's outgoing Secretary of State Antony Blinken. This conversation was produced by Elisa Gutierrez. It was edited by Annabel Bacon, mixing by Sophia Landman. Original music by Dan Powell and Marion Lozano. Photography by Philip Montgomery. The rest of the team is Wyatt Orem, Seth Kelly, and Priya Matthew. Our executive producer is Alison Benedict.

Special thanks to Jessica Lustig, Edward Wong, Chris Buckley, Joel Hellman, Afim Shapiro, Rory Walsh, Renan Borelli, Jeffrey Miranda, Maddy Maciello, Nick Pittman, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schumann, and Sam Doldick. If you like what you're hearing, follow or subscribe to The Interview wherever you get your podcasts.

Special thanks to Jessica Lustig, Edward Wong, Chris Buckley, Joel Hellman, Afim Shapiro, Rory Walsh, Renan Borelli, Jeffrey Miranda, Maddy Maciello, Nick Pittman, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schumann, and Sam Doldick. If you like what you're hearing, follow or subscribe to The Interview wherever you get your podcasts.

To read or listen to any of our conversations, you can always go to nytimes.com slash The Interview. And you can email us anytime at theinterviewatnytimes.com. Next week, David talks with Ben Stiller about the upcoming season of Severance.

To read or listen to any of our conversations, you can always go to nytimes.com slash The Interview. And you can email us anytime at theinterviewatnytimes.com. Next week, David talks with Ben Stiller about the upcoming season of Severance.

I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro, and this is The Interview from The New York Times.

I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro, and this is The Interview from The New York Times.

I'm not asking you to do politics. I'm just asking for a little reflection on this is something you've given your life to. Obviously, the results were a disappointment. And so I wonder if that doesn't seek you to pause and reflect that perhaps that animating vision that you have –

I'm not asking you to do politics. I'm just asking for a little reflection on this is something you've given your life to. Obviously, the results were a disappointment. And so I wonder if that doesn't seek you to pause and reflect that perhaps that animating vision that you have –

had might not have been what Americans wanted I mean do you think there's just a changing sense in this country of our place in the world and what we owe our allies so

had might not have been what Americans wanted I mean do you think there's just a changing sense in this country of our place in the world and what we owe our allies so

I want to pick up on something that you said there, which is discussing Afghanistan, because this takes us back, I think, to the beginning of your tenure. You know, I think it is reasonable to argue that American skepticism of the Biden administration's handling on foreign policy is really began with the catastrophic way we got out of Afghanistan.

I want to pick up on something that you said there, which is discussing Afghanistan, because this takes us back, I think, to the beginning of your tenure. You know, I think it is reasonable to argue that American skepticism of the Biden administration's handling on foreign policy is really began with the catastrophic way we got out of Afghanistan.

There was consensus that we should absolutely end that war, but the manner in which it was done was very detrimental. You know, when President Biden first took office, there was this promise that you and everyone else that was being brought on board were the adults in the room that were going to be ending the chaos of the Trump administration.

There was consensus that we should absolutely end that war, but the manner in which it was done was very detrimental. You know, when President Biden first took office, there was this promise that you and everyone else that was being brought on board were the adults in the room that were going to be ending the chaos of the Trump administration.

How did that early failure in Afghanistan really change the sense? Do you think that President Biden really had this under control that you had it under control? Did it damage America's credibility?

How did that early failure in Afghanistan really change the sense? Do you think that President Biden really had this under control that you had it under control? Did it damage America's credibility?

From The New York Times, this is The Interview. I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro. Four years ago, after the tumultuous first Trump administration, President Biden came into office promising to rebuild old alliances and defend democracy. The man tasked with doing that on the world stage was Secretary of State Antony Blinken, a longtime diplomat who'd worked with the president for decades.

From The New York Times, this is The Interview. I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro. Four years ago, after the tumultuous first Trump administration, President Biden came into office promising to rebuild old alliances and defend democracy. The man tasked with doing that on the world stage was Secretary of State Antony Blinken, a longtime diplomat who'd worked with the president for decades.

All the while, Blinken championed this promise of robust American diplomacy to solve the world's many problems. But as the Biden administration winds down, those conflicts around the world rage on. A new Trump administration is set to retreat from the very alliances and institutions Blinken championed. And what role America will play in the changing global order is an open question.

All the while, Blinken championed this promise of robust American diplomacy to solve the world's many problems. But as the Biden administration winds down, those conflicts around the world rage on. A new Trump administration is set to retreat from the very alliances and institutions Blinken championed. And what role America will play in the changing global order is an open question.

But you've left a country that is in control of the Taliban, where... The stated dream of spreading democracy has been completely upended. Women have borne the brunt of that. You know, there's restrictions on their movements, restrictions on even their voices, what jobs they can take.

But you've left a country that is in control of the Taliban, where... The stated dream of spreading democracy has been completely upended. Women have borne the brunt of that. You know, there's restrictions on their movements, restrictions on even their voices, what jobs they can take.

I mean, in every possible way, the manner in which this was done and the state in which Afghanistan has been left could not have been what the United States desired.

I mean, in every possible way, the manner in which this was done and the state in which Afghanistan has been left could not have been what the United States desired.

Six months after Afghanistan, Russia invaded Ukraine. That was February of 2022. I remember that moment as being terrifying. How close were we to direct conflict?

Six months after Afghanistan, Russia invaded Ukraine. That was February of 2022. I remember that moment as being terrifying. How close were we to direct conflict?

You made two early strategic decisions on Ukraine. The first, because of that fear of direct conflict, was to restrict Ukraine's use of American weapons within Russia. The second was to support Ukraine's military offensive without a parallel diplomatic track to try and end the conflict. How do you look back on those decisions now?

You made two early strategic decisions on Ukraine. The first, because of that fear of direct conflict, was to restrict Ukraine's use of American weapons within Russia. The second was to support Ukraine's military offensive without a parallel diplomatic track to try and end the conflict. How do you look back on those decisions now?

On Thursday, I sat down with Blinken at the State Department for a wide-ranging conversation about the world he's leaving behind, which, despite it all, he argues, is better than the one he inherited. Here's my conversation with Secretary of State Antony Blinken. Secretary Blinken, four years ago, you inherited the world from President Trump. And now you're about to hand it back to him.

On Thursday, I sat down with Blinken at the State Department for a wide-ranging conversation about the world he's leaving behind, which, despite it all, he argues, is better than the one he inherited. Here's my conversation with Secretary of State Antony Blinken. Secretary Blinken, four years ago, you inherited the world from President Trump. And now you're about to hand it back to him.

However, Ukraine has been left in this position now where a new administration is coming in. They have a very different view of the conflict. And one could argue that Ukraine is not in a terribly strong position to be able to navigate what comes next. We know that... President-elect Trump has members of people that surround him that are very willing to see Ukraine cede territory to Russia.

However, Ukraine has been left in this position now where a new administration is coming in. They have a very different view of the conflict. And one could argue that Ukraine is not in a terribly strong position to be able to navigate what comes next. We know that... President-elect Trump has members of people that surround him that are very willing to see Ukraine cede territory to Russia.

There has been no parallel diplomatic track. And the weapons are probably going to be drying up. So do you feel like you've left Ukraine in the strongest position that you could have? Or what are the things that you could have done differently?

There has been no parallel diplomatic track. And the weapons are probably going to be drying up. So do you feel like you've left Ukraine in the strongest position that you could have? Or what are the things that you could have done differently?

Do you think it's time to end the war, though?

Do you think it's time to end the war, though?

You mean that the areas that Russia controls you feel will have to be ceded?

You mean that the areas that Russia controls you feel will have to be ceded?

Thank you. It's a fun, different way to get to know the people we have on our show, including this week's guest, Miley Cyrus. To watch, go to youtube.com slash at the interview podcast. And don't forget to subscribe while you're there. Okay, here's the show. From the New York Times, this is The Interview. I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro. Miley Cyrus has spent almost her entire life in the limelight.

Thank you. It's a fun, different way to get to know the people we have on our show, including this week's guest, Miley Cyrus. To watch, go to youtube.com slash at the interview podcast. And don't forget to subscribe while you're there. Okay, here's the show. From the New York Times, this is The Interview. I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro. Miley Cyrus has spent almost her entire life in the limelight.

The lead single off of Something Beautiful is called The End of the World. And you've talked about how it's a song you wrote for your mom in a hard moment. Mm-hmm. Can you tell me about writing it?

The lead single off of Something Beautiful is called The End of the World. And you've talked about how it's a song you wrote for your mom in a hard moment. Mm-hmm. Can you tell me about writing it?

That's what the song's about?

That's what the song's about?

You sang the song at the Chateau Marmont and you got really emotional during it. What was going on there?

You sang the song at the Chateau Marmont and you got really emotional during it. What was going on there?

Um, you're also releasing a film to go with the album. And that's a first for you. Why did you want to make a film?

Um, you're also releasing a film to go with the album. And that's a first for you. Why did you want to make a film?

It brings to mind a question that I've always had, which is you started your career as an actor and a singer, obviously. But you, other than a few brief acting gigs, really kind of left that behind.

It brings to mind a question that I've always had, which is you started your career as an actor and a singer, obviously. But you, other than a few brief acting gigs, really kind of left that behind.

I want to take you, we've touched on this, but your sort of upbringing, obviously your dad was Billy Ray Cyrus. And is. And is. He's living. He's living. Yeah, he's living. Yeah. Yeah. Indeed. I was curious about little Miley. When did you realize that you had this talent that you could really sing, not just sing, sing, but sing?

I want to take you, we've touched on this, but your sort of upbringing, obviously your dad was Billy Ray Cyrus. And is. And is. He's living. He's living. Yeah, he's living. Yeah. Yeah. Indeed. I was curious about little Miley. When did you realize that you had this talent that you could really sing, not just sing, sing, but sing?

And we went to some unexpected places, talking about her close relationships with her mom Tish and her godmother Dolly Parton, a revelation she had while undergoing trauma therapy, and how she's learned to protect herself in a world that is still fascinated by everything she does. Here's my conversation with Miley Cyrus.

And we went to some unexpected places, talking about her close relationships with her mom Tish and her godmother Dolly Parton, a revelation she had while undergoing trauma therapy, and how she's learned to protect herself in a world that is still fascinated by everything she does. Here's my conversation with Miley Cyrus.

I heard you mentioned briefly in a recent interview with David Letterman that you were bullied in middle school before you left for Hollywood in Hannah Montana. Yeah. And, you know, I'm the mother of a 12-year-old girl.

I heard you mentioned briefly in a recent interview with David Letterman that you were bullied in middle school before you left for Hollywood in Hannah Montana. Yeah. And, you know, I'm the mother of a 12-year-old girl.

Yeah. Middle school is terrible. And I'm wondering what you took away from that period of your life where all of a sudden you go off to have like this amazing success, but, you know, you had this really painful time. Like, why was that happening? Yeah.

Yeah. Middle school is terrible. And I'm wondering what you took away from that period of your life where all of a sudden you go off to have like this amazing success, but, you know, you had this really painful time. Like, why was that happening? Yeah.

So you end up going to Hollywood and you do Hannah Montana. And it's interesting that we've been talking a little bit about getting over Disney because I had another former Disney star who's now an actor, Jenna Ortega, tell me that she can always tell in a room that, who is the child actor, that there's like a certain noticeable precociousness.

So you end up going to Hollywood and you do Hannah Montana. And it's interesting that we've been talking a little bit about getting over Disney because I had another former Disney star who's now an actor, Jenna Ortega, tell me that she can always tell in a room that, who is the child actor, that there's like a certain noticeable precociousness.

She said people just treat you as if you're an adult and that it kind of warps you. Do you think that that resonates?

She said people just treat you as if you're an adult and that it kind of warps you. Do you think that that resonates?

I could tell that you were like not with me at all.

I could tell that you were like not with me at all.

Speaking of, you know, a lot of young stars have had to find themselves in the limelight. And yours was a similar journey. There was a lot of scrutiny, a lot of discussion. When you look back at that period, 2013, when you were, you know, on stage with Robin Thicke and getting a lot of criticism for twerking at the VMAs.

Speaking of, you know, a lot of young stars have had to find themselves in the limelight. And yours was a similar journey. There was a lot of scrutiny, a lot of discussion. When you look back at that period, 2013, when you were, you know, on stage with Robin Thicke and getting a lot of criticism for twerking at the VMAs.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean... I guess I'm wondering, while you were shedding your Disney persona and becoming an adult in the public eye, when you look back at that period, what do you see?

Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean... I guess I'm wondering, while you were shedding your Disney persona and becoming an adult in the public eye, when you look back at that period, what do you see?

In the same vein, you've said that you'll never be able to live down the image of you swinging naked on a wrecking ball, which, but. I don't need to live it down. Yeah. Yeah. Which you did in the music video for the song. Sinead O'Connor wrote an open letter to you after the wrecking ball video was released.

In the same vein, you've said that you'll never be able to live down the image of you swinging naked on a wrecking ball, which, but. I don't need to live it down. Yeah. Yeah. Which you did in the music video for the song. Sinead O'Connor wrote an open letter to you after the wrecking ball video was released.

Yeah. I mean, she wrote the music business doesn't give a shit about you or any of us. They will prostitute you for all your worth and cleverly make you think that it's what you wanted.

Yeah. I mean, she wrote the music business doesn't give a shit about you or any of us. They will prostitute you for all your worth and cleverly make you think that it's what you wanted.

Yeah, that's what I was wondering. If, like, looking back, those words have a different resonance now or you just see them differently?

Yeah, that's what I was wondering. If, like, looking back, those words have a different resonance now or you just see them differently?

I guess I was thinking also of Sinead because you did her song Nothing Compares to You on SNL 50 this past February. And considering the history, I was wondering why you chose her song.

I guess I was thinking also of Sinead because you did her song Nothing Compares to You on SNL 50 this past February. And considering the history, I was wondering why you chose her song.

I find, you know, the relationship between female pop stars to be really interesting and often very fraught. Divas.

I find, you know, the relationship between female pop stars to be really interesting and often very fraught. Divas.

I was just surprised that you have said that you don't feel part of the cohort of singers of your, you know, sort of generation and age group. Not that I think, again, everyone needs to have a group chat, but that that you've sort of held yourself apart in a certain way. And I was wondering, like, why you think that is.

I was just surprised that you have said that you don't feel part of the cohort of singers of your, you know, sort of generation and age group. Not that I think, again, everyone needs to have a group chat, but that that you've sort of held yourself apart in a certain way. And I was wondering, like, why you think that is.

You talked about how close you are with your mom. You know, she obviously managed you. Your grandmother was like the head of your fan club. You had these really strong female friends. sort of lineage. I don't know the story, though, about how Queen Dolly became your godmother. Why did that happen?

You talked about how close you are with your mom. You know, she obviously managed you. Your grandmother was like the head of your fan club. You had these really strong female friends. sort of lineage. I don't know the story, though, about how Queen Dolly became your godmother. Why did that happen?

So she was the godmother you chose.

So she was the godmother you chose.

I like you. And what is your favorite key? He was right, G and C. Uh-huh. All right. We're going to talk a little bit about the past. We're going to talk a little bit about, obviously, your new music. So we're just going to wander. If at any point you feel whatever, you want to take a break, by all means. I appreciate it.

I like you. And what is your favorite key? He was right, G and C. Uh-huh. All right. We're going to talk a little bit about the past. We're going to talk a little bit about, obviously, your new music. So we're just going to wander. If at any point you feel whatever, you want to take a break, by all means. I appreciate it.

I do wonder at this point what it's like for you to have grown up so famous and to also be part of this famous family. Because in the past few years, you know, your mom remarried and that caused some rifts in your family. Your dad has a new relationship with Elizabeth Hurley. Yeah. And all this stuff gets picked apart sort of endlessly in the media, on social media.

I do wonder at this point what it's like for you to have grown up so famous and to also be part of this famous family. Because in the past few years, you know, your mom remarried and that caused some rifts in your family. Your dad has a new relationship with Elizabeth Hurley. Yeah. And all this stuff gets picked apart sort of endlessly in the media, on social media.

And it must be complicated to have all that stuff play out publicly.

And it must be complicated to have all that stuff play out publicly.

Okay, good.

Okay, good.

Oh, we like it.

Oh, we like it.

You've talked some about therapy, and it's just something I just wanted to ask you because you've discussed doing EMDR, and I did EMDR.

You've talked some about therapy, and it's just something I just wanted to ask you because you've discussed doing EMDR, and I did EMDR.

And I'm just wondering about that, what it did for you, how it helped you, because it's a very specific type of therapy that really is to do with trauma. Yeah.

And I'm just wondering about that, what it did for you, how it helped you, because it's a very specific type of therapy that really is to do with trauma. Yeah.

No, we never saw each other because I was at NPR.

No, we never saw each other because I was at NPR.

I was a new host back then. I hadn't done a lot of celebrity interviews. And you came on and said, ask me anything. Anything at all. No holds barred. And I had no idea what to do with that. I literally just froze and thought, I don't know what to what to ask Miley Cyrus if she's saying, ask me anything.

I was a new host back then. I hadn't done a lot of celebrity interviews. And you came on and said, ask me anything. Anything at all. No holds barred. And I had no idea what to do with that. I literally just froze and thought, I don't know what to what to ask Miley Cyrus if she's saying, ask me anything.

After the break, Miley and I speak again about what her fame has done to her family.

After the break, Miley and I speak again about what her fame has done to her family.

Hi, it's Miley. Hi, it's Lulu. Hi, Lulu. How are you? I'm really good. How are you?

Hi, it's Miley. Hi, it's Lulu. Hi, Lulu. How are you? I'm really good. How are you?

Good to talk to you, too. Are you home?

Good to talk to you, too. Are you home?

Yeah, heaven. I feel you. Yeah. It was just Mother's Day. I was thinking about you and Tish. I was wondering what you all did.

Yeah, heaven. I feel you. Yeah. It was just Mother's Day. I was thinking about you and Tish. I was wondering what you all did.

You know, when you were talking about your mom and your relationship with your mom, you talked about holding this emotional baggage. And I think the phrase you used was owning her pain. And it made me wonder about your dad and if you ever felt the same about your dad because you've talked before about his rough childhood, about his own upbringing, his own struggles. Yeah.

You know, when you were talking about your mom and your relationship with your mom, you talked about holding this emotional baggage. And I think the phrase you used was owning her pain. And it made me wonder about your dad and if you ever felt the same about your dad because you've talked before about his rough childhood, about his own upbringing, his own struggles. Yeah.

And I was wondering, as I've watched you kind of evolve, if you would say something like that now starting an interview.

And I was wondering, as I've watched you kind of evolve, if you would say something like that now starting an interview.

And by the way, if at any point you don't want to answer any of this, just tell me.

And by the way, if at any point you don't want to answer any of this, just tell me.

Because I know that this is sensitive. The reason I sort of wonder about this is, you know, you worked so much with your dad and then you sort of surpassed him in success. And I wondered if you ever thought he felt competitive or eclipsed by that.

Because I know that this is sensitive. The reason I sort of wonder about this is, you know, you worked so much with your dad and then you sort of surpassed him in success. And I wondered if you ever thought he felt competitive or eclipsed by that.

Have you felt guilty about it?

Have you felt guilty about it?

Something we didn't talk about last time is sobriety. You've talked about how you needed to get sober to protect your vocal cords. I'm a fellow sober person. Love it. Yeah, it's been about two and a half years. I know there was discussion in your family about your dad's sobriety. Did you ever talk to him about that, about your own journey and about if it could help him or not? I think he...

Something we didn't talk about last time is sobriety. You've talked about how you needed to get sober to protect your vocal cords. I'm a fellow sober person. Love it. Yeah, it's been about two and a half years. I know there was discussion in your family about your dad's sobriety. Did you ever talk to him about that, about your own journey and about if it could help him or not? I think he...

You know, we ended our last conversation talking about your experience with EMDR. And you were basically describing how you work through intergenerational trauma in your sessions. And it did make me wonder, given all that, is being a parent something you're interested in?

You know, we ended our last conversation talking about your experience with EMDR. And you were basically describing how you work through intergenerational trauma in your sessions. And it did make me wonder, given all that, is being a parent something you're interested in?

I'd love for you to explain what that means for you now, when you have this idea of being in control and being safe and understanding what your own boundaries are and how you interact with people.

I'd love for you to explain what that means for you now, when you have this idea of being in control and being safe and understanding what your own boundaries are and how you interact with people.

Last question. As we were discussing how meaningful your Grammy win was, it made me wonder about your relationship to mainstream success. I mean, how important is that to you? Because you had this whole discussion about weird music and how you like weird music and how you like popular music. And sometimes those two things are in tension.

Last question. As we were discussing how meaningful your Grammy win was, it made me wonder about your relationship to mainstream success. I mean, how important is that to you? Because you had this whole discussion about weird music and how you like weird music and how you like popular music. And sometimes those two things are in tension.

That's Miley Cyrus' Something Beautiful is out now. This conversation was produced by Wyatt Orme. It was edited by Annabelle Bacon, mixing by Sophia Landman. Original music by Rowan Nemisto, Dan Powell, and Marian Lozano. Photography by Philip Montgomery. Our senior booker is Priya Matthew and Seth Kelly is our senior producer. Our executive producer is Alison Benedict.

That's Miley Cyrus' Something Beautiful is out now. This conversation was produced by Wyatt Orme. It was edited by Annabelle Bacon, mixing by Sophia Landman. Original music by Rowan Nemisto, Dan Powell, and Marian Lozano. Photography by Philip Montgomery. Our senior booker is Priya Matthew and Seth Kelly is our senior producer. Our executive producer is Alison Benedict.

Special thanks to Rory Walsh, Renan Barelli, Jeffrey Miranda, Nick Pittman, Maddy Macielo, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schumann, and Sam Dolnick. If you like what you're hearing, follow or subscribe to The Interview wherever you get your podcasts. And just a reminder, we have a new YouTube channel where you can watch this interview and many others.

Special thanks to Rory Walsh, Renan Barelli, Jeffrey Miranda, Nick Pittman, Maddy Macielo, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schumann, and Sam Dolnick. If you like what you're hearing, follow or subscribe to The Interview wherever you get your podcasts. And just a reminder, we have a new YouTube channel where you can watch this interview and many others.

Subscribe at youtube.com slash at the interview podcast. Next week, David talks with dancer Misty Copeland. Are you the type of person who just wings it sometimes? Rarely.

Subscribe at youtube.com slash at the interview podcast. Next week, David talks with dancer Misty Copeland. Are you the type of person who just wings it sometimes? Rarely.

I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro, and this is the interview from the New York Times.

I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro, and this is the interview from the New York Times.

You know, you have been famous forever, it feels like. And these past few years have been absolutely huge for you. Last year, you won your first Grammy for your song Flowers off your last album. And you exuded so much joy and so much gratitude at that moment.

You know, you have been famous forever, it feels like. And these past few years have been absolutely huge for you. Last year, you won your first Grammy for your song Flowers off your last album. And you exuded so much joy and so much gratitude at that moment.

Why do you think it took so long?

Why do you think it took so long?

When she was only 13, she debuted as Disney Channel's Hannah Montana. She played a regular girl by day who had a secret life as a pop star by night. The role made her into a household name with a string of hits like this one, Party in the USA. After the show ended, she became a fully-fledged pop star in her own right. She gave us the breakup anthem of the decade with her song, Wrecking Ball.

When she was only 13, she debuted as Disney Channel's Hannah Montana. She played a regular girl by day who had a secret life as a pop star by night. The role made her into a household name with a string of hits like this one, Party in the USA. After the show ended, she became a fully-fledged pop star in her own right. She gave us the breakup anthem of the decade with her song, Wrecking Ball.

There's a lot there to unpack. That was breathless, but sorry. No, no. There's a lot there. I mean, I'm really interested with the idea of having to overcome your Hannah Montana days in the sense of being considered a real artist, right? Yeah, that's what I think it kind of was. Yeah, that somehow the machinery of Disney and how it's, you know, been the place that a lot of people have come from.

There's a lot there to unpack. That was breathless, but sorry. No, no. There's a lot there. I mean, I'm really interested with the idea of having to overcome your Hannah Montana days in the sense of being considered a real artist, right? Yeah, that's what I think it kind of was. Yeah, that somehow the machinery of Disney and how it's, you know, been the place that a lot of people have come from.

All right. I want to talk about the new album, Something Beautiful. I've always had a bit of trouble pinning your music down because you are always experimenting in this way that's innovative. You go through different genres, different types of music. And so I'd love to know what you're trying to do with this album.

All right. I want to talk about the new album, Something Beautiful. I've always had a bit of trouble pinning your music down because you are always experimenting in this way that's innovative. You go through different genres, different types of music. And so I'd love to know what you're trying to do with this album.

And now in her 30s, her mega hit Flowers spent weeks on top of the charts and won her her first Grammy. She just released her ninth album, Something Beautiful. It's ambitious and personal, and it's also her first visual album. The lead single is End of the World. Miley and I spoke in person in New York when she was in town for the Met Gala.

And now in her 30s, her mega hit Flowers spent weeks on top of the charts and won her her first Grammy. She just released her ninth album, Something Beautiful. It's ambitious and personal, and it's also her first visual album. The lead single is End of the World. Miley and I spoke in person in New York when she was in town for the Met Gala.

When was the last time you felt rage?

When was the last time you felt rage?

I understand that this is sensitive, so forgive me, and you can just move on. But obviously, this was the period after your divorce. And so... Weirdly, I'm not talking about him. Okay, that's what I'm just... Because sometimes I think people talk about things, but they're not talking about it, and I'm just trying to... No, mine is more...

I understand that this is sensitive, so forgive me, and you can just move on. But obviously, this was the period after your divorce. And so... Weirdly, I'm not talking about him. Okay, that's what I'm just... Because sometimes I think people talk about things, but they're not talking about it, and I'm just trying to... No, mine is more...

What is a Miley Cyrus song?

What is a Miley Cyrus song?

Did you feel during that period that people were turning their back on you? Like, because there had been this big flame out at NBC, that just all that world that you had inhabited had sort of rejected you?

Did you feel during that period that people were turning their back on you? Like, because there had been this big flame out at NBC, that just all that world that you had inhabited had sort of rejected you?

This was the moment when, you've talked about this on your new show, when you sort of decided the mainstream media is not for me.

This was the moment when, you've talked about this on your new show, when you sort of decided the mainstream media is not for me.

When you walked through that door, were you a tough person?

When you walked through that door, were you a tough person?

Yeah. I mean, you've talked about finding a third version of Megyn Kelly with your new show, which is on YouTube. Looking at the early days of your show, when you first started, it was very much like you were an anchor on television. And now you look a lot looser. Yes.

Yeah. I mean, you've talked about finding a third version of Megyn Kelly with your new show, which is on YouTube. Looking at the early days of your show, when you first started, it was very much like you were an anchor on television. And now you look a lot looser. Yes.

One of the things that you just did, which is a red line for most journalists, is that you showed up at one of Donald Trump's rallies right before the election and you formally endorsed him. Once you endorse a politician on stage at a rally, I don't think you can reasonably be called independent anymore. Or do you see it differently?

One of the things that you just did, which is a red line for most journalists, is that you showed up at one of Donald Trump's rallies right before the election and you formally endorsed him. Once you endorse a politician on stage at a rally, I don't think you can reasonably be called independent anymore. Or do you see it differently?

But then going and actively campaigning, standing on stage and, you know, giving him a hug and a kiss. It is different. And I think a lot of people saw you endorsing Trump as caving, as essentially going to where the power is.

But then going and actively campaigning, standing on stage and, you know, giving him a hug and a kiss. It is different. And I think a lot of people saw you endorsing Trump as caving, as essentially going to where the power is.

And you know the symbolism of it, of course, which is someone who so famously had been at odds with him that he had done so much to, to publicly stand up and embrace him, was significant to a lot of people.

And you know the symbolism of it, of course, which is someone who so famously had been at odds with him that he had done so much to, to publicly stand up and embrace him, was significant to a lot of people.

I understand the fervor within which you embrace some of his policies. But what you were talking about there was the person himself, the things that he has been accused of, credibly accused of, and what you yourself experienced. I'll give you the perspective on it.

I understand the fervor within which you embrace some of his policies. But what you were talking about there was the person himself, the things that he has been accused of, credibly accused of, and what you yourself experienced. I'll give you the perspective on it.

You really think it's fair game that you as a journalist ask a fair question based on things that he'd said and he put you through that for a whole year? You think that's fair?

You really think it's fair game that you as a journalist ask a fair question based on things that he'd said and he put you through that for a whole year? You think that's fair?

I know there was a time when you were working days as a lawyer and then nights and weekends learning TV journalism. What did you feel that you could do as a journalist that you couldn't do as a litigator?

I know there was a time when you were working days as a lawyer and then nights and weekends learning TV journalism. What did you feel that you could do as a journalist that you couldn't do as a litigator?

I just want to understand something clearly. Donald Trump was found liable for sexual abuse in a civil court. He's been accused by many women.

I just want to understand something clearly. Donald Trump was found liable for sexual abuse in a civil court. He's been accused by many women.

There are other women who have. I've interviewed some of them.

There are other women who have. I've interviewed some of them.

Do you see yourself as a journalist still? Or would you not describe yourself like that anymore?

Do you see yourself as a journalist still? Or would you not describe yourself like that anymore?

Do you think you could be at Fox now in the way that you were before?

Do you think you could be at Fox now in the way that you were before?

What's left if that happens? I mean, the way that the algorithms work now is that, I agree with you, they elevate individuals, that you have a personal relationship with them, but you're given more of the same thing that you want, right? So if I like Megyn Kelly, I might get Megyn Kelly-adjacent So however great Megyn Kelly may or may not be, that is a very narrow slice of what's out there.

What's left if that happens? I mean, the way that the algorithms work now is that, I agree with you, they elevate individuals, that you have a personal relationship with them, but you're given more of the same thing that you want, right? So if I like Megyn Kelly, I might get Megyn Kelly-adjacent So however great Megyn Kelly may or may not be, that is a very narrow slice of what's out there.

After the break, I call Megan back, and she says what we were both thinking.

After the break, I call Megan back, and she says what we were both thinking.

Hi. Hi. I was thinking a lot about our conversation and you were talking about how you still consider yourself a journalist, even though the way you do the work has sort of changed over time.

Hi. Hi. I was thinking a lot about our conversation and you were talking about how you still consider yourself a journalist, even though the way you do the work has sort of changed over time.

And so I did want to ask you, as someone who supports the president, what you make of the various ways that he attacks the press from calling reporters the enemy of the people to sort of popularizing the term fake news, sometimes calling out individual reporters. What do you make of that dynamic?

And so I did want to ask you, as someone who supports the president, what you make of the various ways that he attacks the press from calling reporters the enemy of the people to sort of popularizing the term fake news, sometimes calling out individual reporters. What do you make of that dynamic?

President Trump has chosen a lot of people who are in the media, especially on Fox for his administration. The most high profile, of course, Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth, whom you worked with, Deputy Director of the FBI Dan Bongino. There are many others. As someone who spent so much time in that world, I'm curious what you make of that. I'm excited about it.

President Trump has chosen a lot of people who are in the media, especially on Fox for his administration. The most high profile, of course, Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth, whom you worked with, Deputy Director of the FBI Dan Bongino. There are many others. As someone who spent so much time in that world, I'm curious what you make of that. I'm excited about it.

Well, you interviewed him, and it was a fair interview, a tough interview. But you opened it by saying, you know, that he was a friend. You said, I've been really dismayed by the amount of pylon that he's been suffering, and I've been outraged by the unfairness of the media's coverage of the allegations, and that's a direct quote.

Well, you interviewed him, and it was a fair interview, a tough interview. But you opened it by saying, you know, that he was a friend. You said, I've been really dismayed by the amount of pylon that he's been suffering, and I've been outraged by the unfairness of the media's coverage of the allegations, and that's a direct quote.

And so I'm curious what you're doing in that interview, because you're setting up the interview— Thank you.

And so I'm curious what you're doing in that interview, because you're setting up the interview— Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

In 2004, you get to Fox. What were your politics then? Did you feel attracted to the news organization because it was conservative, or were you just thinking, this is my way in, it's the big time?

In 2004, you get to Fox. What were your politics then? Did you feel attracted to the news organization because it was conservative, or were you just thinking, this is my way in, it's the big time?

Why do you think that was? Because it was good TV or because he thought they should be challenged?

Why do you think that was? Because it was good TV or because he thought they should be challenged?

Kelly built her career in the mainstream media. She spent nearly 15 years at Fox News, where she earned a reputation as one of the channel's sharpest interviewers, before she moved briefly to NBC. But that Trump rally speech was the clearest sign yet that Kelly has moved on to her next chapter.

Kelly built her career in the mainstream media. She spent nearly 15 years at Fox News, where she earned a reputation as one of the channel's sharpest interviewers, before she moved briefly to NBC. But that Trump rally speech was the clearest sign yet that Kelly has moved on to her next chapter.

From The New York Times, this is The Interview. I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro. Last year, on the night before the election, Megyn Kelly did something she'd never done before. She got up on stage at Donald Trump's final campaign rally, and she endorsed him.

From The New York Times, this is The Interview. I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro. Last year, on the night before the election, Megyn Kelly did something she'd never done before. She got up on stage at Donald Trump's final campaign rally, and she endorsed him.

So that approach became one of your hallmarks, this thing of being able to call balls and strikes specifically on a conservative network against conservatives. That was unusual. And in 2015, there was the very famous Republican primary debate, and you had a question for Donald Trump where you asked him to explain why he had called women fat pigs, dogs, slobs, and disgusting animals.

So that approach became one of your hallmarks, this thing of being able to call balls and strikes specifically on a conservative network against conservatives. That was unusual. And in 2015, there was the very famous Republican primary debate, and you had a question for Donald Trump where you asked him to explain why he had called women fat pigs, dogs, slobs, and disgusting animals.

And then he retaliated against you. His attacks were relentless after that year. You've talked about this a lot, but what I would like to understand in hindsight now, why do you think he came after you?

And then he retaliated against you. His attacks were relentless after that year. You've talked about this a lot, but what I would like to understand in hindsight now, why do you think he came after you?

Over the past few years, she's found a new lane for herself in podcasting and on YouTube, where she has a daily talk show that fits squarely into the MAGA-loving media universe.

Over the past few years, she's found a new lane for herself in podcasting and on YouTube, where she has a daily talk show that fits squarely into the MAGA-loving media universe.

You've talked a lot about what a terrible year that was and having to go with armed guards and, you know, having his supporters come after you. Do you have sort of residue from that period?

You've talked a lot about what a terrible year that was and having to go with armed guards and, you know, having his supporters come after you. Do you have sort of residue from that period?

It's just one of the reasons why I was so interested to talk to her about her professional evolution, her volatile relationship with President Trump, and what she thinks some people, myself included, don't understand about how the media has changed forever. Here's my conversation with Megyn Kelly. Thank you.

It's just one of the reasons why I was so interested to talk to her about her professional evolution, her volatile relationship with President Trump, and what she thinks some people, myself included, don't understand about how the media has changed forever. Here's my conversation with Megyn Kelly. Thank you.

In 2016, you and other female Fox employees accused Roger Ailes of sexual harassment. And again, this is a pretty well-documented time in your life. There was a movie about it. And ultimately, you were instrumental in getting him fired. Did you feel at Fox that people were angry at you because of what you'd done, certain people?

In 2016, you and other female Fox employees accused Roger Ailes of sexual harassment. And again, this is a pretty well-documented time in your life. There was a movie about it. And ultimately, you were instrumental in getting him fired. Did you feel at Fox that people were angry at you because of what you'd done, certain people?

What was that call with Lachlan like, though, when you called him up and told him?

What was that call with Lachlan like, though, when you called him up and told him?

Megan, one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you is because you're really forging this new path. And I think to fully sort of understand your career, I wanted to start early. Before you were a journalist, you were a lawyer at Jones Day, which is one of the toughest, notorious firms out there for being just like a big international law firm that only takes the best of the best.

Megan, one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you is because you're really forging this new path. And I think to fully sort of understand your career, I wanted to start early. Before you were a journalist, you were a lawyer at Jones Day, which is one of the toughest, notorious firms out there for being just like a big international law firm that only takes the best of the best.

I don't want to spend too much time here because I do want to get to today. Because of your comments about blackface and Halloween, ostensibly, there was a lot of other things going on at that moment. But ostensibly, that was the reason that you were arrested.

I don't want to spend too much time here because I do want to get to today. Because of your comments about blackface and Halloween, ostensibly, there was a lot of other things going on at that moment. But ostensibly, that was the reason that you were arrested.

Mm hmm.

Mm hmm.

The only way one succeeds in this medium is by violating all those rules that we used to have in journalism, where you don't really talk about yourself at all. You don't talk about your opinions. You might have a bias. Your only goal is to hide it. It's just a whole new world.

The only way one succeeds in this medium is by violating all those rules that we used to have in journalism, where you don't really talk about yourself at all. You don't talk about your opinions. You might have a bias. Your only goal is to hide it. It's just a whole new world.

Hey, everyone. It's Lulu. Before we get into today's episode, I want to let you know about something really exciting we have coming up here at The Interview. It's our first ever live show. It'll be at the Tribeca Festival in New York City on Thursday, June 12th. I'll be talking with actor Sandra Oh. You might know her, of course, from Grey's Anatomy or Killing Eve.

Hey, everyone. It's Lulu. Before we get into today's episode, I want to let you know about something really exciting we have coming up here at The Interview. It's our first ever live show. It'll be at the Tribeca Festival in New York City on Thursday, June 12th. I'll be talking with actor Sandra Oh. You might know her, of course, from Grey's Anatomy or Killing Eve.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm really looking forward to it, and I'm really looking forward to seeing you there. Tickets are on sale now at tribecafestival.com slash theinterview. Okay, now on to the show. Here's David.

I'm really looking forward to it, and I'm really looking forward to seeing you there. Tickets are on sale now at tribecafestival.com slash theinterview. Okay, now on to the show. Here's David.

I want to turn to the subject of class. I interviewed J.D. Vance before the election. And, you know, even though your politics are obviously very different than his, your backgrounds do share similar traits. Working class, raised by single mothers, military service in Iraq, went to the Ivy League. And that story of class transition does seem to resonate with voters.

I want to turn to the subject of class. I interviewed J.D. Vance before the election. And, you know, even though your politics are obviously very different than his, your backgrounds do share similar traits. Working class, raised by single mothers, military service in Iraq, went to the Ivy League. And that story of class transition does seem to resonate with voters.

Something I really struggle to reconcile is On the one hand, you have voters saying that the economy and inflation are their top issues, and they feel the pain of price increases, which is completely understandable. On the other hand, under Trump, we now have the richest cabinet in modern history. The world's richest person is gutting the federal government.

Something I really struggle to reconcile is On the one hand, you have voters saying that the economy and inflation are their top issues, and they feel the pain of price increases, which is completely understandable. On the other hand, under Trump, we now have the richest cabinet in modern history. The world's richest person is gutting the federal government.

Yet polls show the president starting his second term with higher approval ratings than when he began his first term. Mm-hmm. And it sends this confusing message about what the electorate actually wants. You have class as a central part of your story. So why don't you think it's a confusing message?

Yet polls show the president starting his second term with higher approval ratings than when he began his first term. Mm-hmm. And it sends this confusing message about what the electorate actually wants. You have class as a central part of your story. So why don't you think it's a confusing message?

So the Democratic message among some Democrats have sort of eat the rich, right? Right.

So the Democratic message among some Democrats have sort of eat the rich, right? Right.

That's not the right message.

That's not the right message.

So Elon Musk, Donald Trump, are these the people who have actually figured out how to connect with the working class? Yes, yeah.

So Elon Musk, Donald Trump, are these the people who have actually figured out how to connect with the working class? Yes, yeah.

And it occurs to me, you're a first-term senator, but you were in the House for about 10 years before that. And you were in Congress during the first Trump administration.

And it occurs to me, you're a first-term senator, but you were in the House for about 10 years before that. And you were in Congress during the first Trump administration.

They're salesmen, essentially.

They're salesmen, essentially.

And they understand who the client is.

And they understand who the client is.

After the break, I asked Senator Gallego about a contentious issue where he's challenged his party, immigration.

After the break, I asked Senator Gallego about a contentious issue where he's challenged his party, immigration.

Yeah. So I guess I'm wondering, does this time feel different?

Yeah. So I guess I'm wondering, does this time feel different?

I want to ask you specifically about immigration, which was one of the central issues of the election, as we mentioned, and one that really hurt Democrats. I'm curious how your own story affects your view of the immigration debate. Your parents emigrated from Colombia and Mexico. What was your family's experience with the immigration system?

I want to ask you specifically about immigration, which was one of the central issues of the election, as we mentioned, and one that really hurt Democrats. I'm curious how your own story affects your view of the immigration debate. Your parents emigrated from Colombia and Mexico. What was your family's experience with the immigration system?

As senator, your first vote was for the Lake and Riley Act. You were one of two Democratic co-sponsors of the bill, the other one being John Fetterman of Pennsylvania. Many in the immigrant advocacy community were, shall we say, unhappy with that position. They have criticized the law. They say it raises due process concerns for immigrants.

As senator, your first vote was for the Lake and Riley Act. You were one of two Democratic co-sponsors of the bill, the other one being John Fetterman of Pennsylvania. Many in the immigrant advocacy community were, shall we say, unhappy with that position. They have criticized the law. They say it raises due process concerns for immigrants.

Another big concern is that it will give states more control over immigration policy, essentially gutting federal authority over that. What was your thinking behind voting for the Lincoln-Raleigh Act?

Another big concern is that it will give states more control over immigration policy, essentially gutting federal authority over that. What was your thinking behind voting for the Lincoln-Raleigh Act?

This bill does seem to want to change the nature of how immigration is done in this country. And writ large, the architect of this administration's immigration policies is Stephen Miller, who in the past has promoted hardline views by citing the work of white nationalist websites. And that's according to the Southern Poverty Law Center.

This bill does seem to want to change the nature of how immigration is done in this country. And writ large, the architect of this administration's immigration policies is Stephen Miller, who in the past has promoted hardline views by citing the work of white nationalist websites. And that's according to the Southern Poverty Law Center.

There does seem to be a strain in this administration that does want to change the makeup of this country.

There does seem to be a strain in this administration that does want to change the makeup of this country.

Do you worry that voters' legitimate concerns about our immigration system are being weaponized for ideological ends?

Do you worry that voters' legitimate concerns about our immigration system are being weaponized for ideological ends?

So then was it hard for you to cast that vote knowing that context?

So then was it hard for you to cast that vote knowing that context?

Do you blame President Biden for that?

Do you blame President Biden for that?

Just understand where you stand on specific issues. For example, should local law enforcement be helping ICE carry out deportations?

Just understand where you stand on specific issues. For example, should local law enforcement be helping ICE carry out deportations?

Should migrants be sent to Guantanamo, to prisons in El Salvador?

Should migrants be sent to Guantanamo, to prisons in El Salvador?

Do you see a shift in how seriously the party is taking this moment?

Do you see a shift in how seriously the party is taking this moment?

I think there is a concern that people that get put into these systems, it's sort of like a black hole. It's a legal limbo.

I think there is a concern that people that get put into these systems, it's sort of like a black hole. It's a legal limbo.

But not ones that have been in the United States or people who have been caught at sea.

But not ones that have been in the United States or people who have been caught at sea.

How have you seen the deportation working in the last three weeks since Trump has taken over?

How have you seen the deportation working in the last three weeks since Trump has taken over?

You think it's ineffective? Yeah.

You think it's ineffective? Yeah.

Do you take Donald Trump and his administration at face value that what they're interested in doing is deporting criminals as opposed to deporting immigrants?

Do you take Donald Trump and his administration at face value that what they're interested in doing is deporting criminals as opposed to deporting immigrants?

As we've discussed, there are concerns about Democrats being too deferential to the more liberal parts of the party. Yes, on immigration, but also gender, LGBTQ rights, DEI, whatever it is. And these are all things that the right has been hammering Democrats on for a while. And it seems to be working.

As we've discussed, there are concerns about Democrats being too deferential to the more liberal parts of the party. Yes, on immigration, but also gender, LGBTQ rights, DEI, whatever it is. And these are all things that the right has been hammering Democrats on for a while. And it seems to be working.

So how do Democrats stand for what they believe in without being seen by voters as being outside of the mainstream?

So how do Democrats stand for what they believe in without being seen by voters as being outside of the mainstream?

Senator Ruben Gallego, thank you very much.

Senator Ruben Gallego, thank you very much.

That's Senator Ruben Gallego. This conversation was produced by Seth Kelly. It was edited by Annabelle Bacon. Mixing by Sophia Landman. Original music by Dan Powell and Marion Lozano. Photography by Philip Montgomery. Our senior booker is Priya Matthew and Wyatt Orme is our producer. Our executive producer is Alison Benedict.

That's Senator Ruben Gallego. This conversation was produced by Seth Kelly. It was edited by Annabelle Bacon. Mixing by Sophia Landman. Original music by Dan Powell and Marion Lozano. Photography by Philip Montgomery. Our senior booker is Priya Matthew and Wyatt Orme is our producer. Our executive producer is Alison Benedict.

Special thanks to Kellen Browning, Ron Hansen, Afim Shapiro, Rory Walsh, Renan Borelli, Jeffrey Miranda, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schumann, and Sam Dulnick. If you like what you're hearing, follow or subscribe to The Interview wherever you get your podcasts. To read or listen to any of our conversations, you can always go to nytimes.com slash the interview.

Special thanks to Kellen Browning, Ron Hansen, Afim Shapiro, Rory Walsh, Renan Borelli, Jeffrey Miranda, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schumann, and Sam Dulnick. If you like what you're hearing, follow or subscribe to The Interview wherever you get your podcasts. To read or listen to any of our conversations, you can always go to nytimes.com slash the interview.

And you can email us anytime at theinterviewatnytimes.com. Next week, David talks with Pulitzer Prize-winning science writer Ed Yong about experiencing burnout after his years reporting on COVID and how burning helped him recover.

And you can email us anytime at theinterviewatnytimes.com. Next week, David talks with Pulitzer Prize-winning science writer Ed Yong about experiencing burnout after his years reporting on COVID and how burning helped him recover.

I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro, and this is The Interview from The New York Times.

I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro, and this is The Interview from The New York Times.

And I guess the big question for Democrats is what it means to be an effective opposition party. And I think there are two issues here, right? One is what Democrats should actually do effectively. to counter Trump's actions. And the other is how you should communicate what you're doing. On the first, there is talk of using government spending, which has to be negotiated by March 14th as leverage.

And I guess the big question for Democrats is what it means to be an effective opposition party. And I think there are two issues here, right? One is what Democrats should actually do effectively. to counter Trump's actions. And the other is how you should communicate what you're doing. On the first, there is talk of using government spending, which has to be negotiated by March 14th as leverage.

Obviously, the risk is that if there is a shutdown, the Democrats will be blamed for that at a moment when, indeed, the party is trying to beach voters, rebuild itself, communicate that it is a party worth voting for. Is the risk too high?

Obviously, the risk is that if there is a shutdown, the Democrats will be blamed for that at a moment when, indeed, the party is trying to beach voters, rebuild itself, communicate that it is a party worth voting for. Is the risk too high?

Democrats, having lost the Senate and the presidency, are struggling to come up with a unified strategy, not only to stop Trump's agenda, but also to win back the voters they need who moved towards him in the election. It's a real moment of soul-searching for the party.

Democrats, having lost the Senate and the presidency, are struggling to come up with a unified strategy, not only to stop Trump's agenda, but also to win back the voters they need who moved towards him in the election. It's a real moment of soul-searching for the party.

I could see you in your brain changing the word.

I could see you in your brain changing the word.

I want to take a step back because, as we've mentioned, Democrats are trying to redefine their party. And your victory in a state that Trump won has been framed as possibly offering a model for what kind of message actually works. You outperformed Harris in your state, meaning that you won over some Trump voters. Why do you think that happened?

I want to take a step back because, as we've mentioned, Democrats are trying to redefine their party. And your victory in a state that Trump won has been framed as possibly offering a model for what kind of message actually works. You outperformed Harris in your state, meaning that you won over some Trump voters. Why do you think that happened?

So over the next month, I'll be having a series of conversations with influential Democratic politicians to understand their internal debates about the way forward. My first is with Arizona's junior Democratic Senator Ruben Gallego. Gallego's win over Republican Kerry Lake was one of the few bright spots for Democrats in November.

So over the next month, I'll be having a series of conversations with influential Democratic politicians to understand their internal debates about the way forward. My first is with Arizona's junior Democratic Senator Ruben Gallego. Gallego's win over Republican Kerry Lake was one of the few bright spots for Democrats in November.

I want to talk through some demographic groups that Democrats really need to win back if they want to be competitive.

I want to talk through some demographic groups that Democrats really need to win back if they want to be competitive.

From The New York Times, this is The Interview. I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro. It's been a blizzard of political news over the past few weeks as President Donald Trump and his billionaire backer, Elon Musk, try to remake America's government. From dismantling federal agencies to the mass firing of federal workers, the duo's frenzied efforts are testing both the courts and the opposition.

From The New York Times, this is The Interview. I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro. It's been a blizzard of political news over the past few weeks as President Donald Trump and his billionaire backer, Elon Musk, try to remake America's government. From dismantling federal agencies to the mass firing of federal workers, the duo's frenzied efforts are testing both the courts and the opposition.

I mean, men, for example. Yeah. You've been described to me as a bro. And not in a bad way.

I mean, men, for example. Yeah. You've been described to me as a bro. And not in a bad way.

You won Latino men by 30 points in an election that saw Trump dominate that group.

You won Latino men by 30 points in an election that saw Trump dominate that group.

I know men are a very sort of broad group, but what do you think Democrats have misunderstood about men?

I know men are a very sort of broad group, but what do you think Democrats have misunderstood about men?

I mean, I think one of the difficulties maybe for Democrats is that what you're describing is more traditional values, right? But people vote on value. But are you saying that Democrats should recognize that people want more traditional gender roles?

I mean, I think one of the difficulties maybe for Democrats is that what you're describing is more traditional values, right? But people vote on value. But are you saying that Democrats should recognize that people want more traditional gender roles?

Be less afraid of that? No.

Be less afraid of that? No.

A former member of the House, Gallego won in a tight race by overperforming Kamala Harris among key demographics that Democrats have struggled with, especially men and Latinos. Gallego is the son of an immigrant single mother and grew up poor.

A former member of the House, Gallego won in a tight race by overperforming Kamala Harris among key demographics that Democrats have struggled with, especially men and Latinos. Gallego is the son of an immigrant single mother and grew up poor.

Hmm. You know, after the midterms in 2022, when Democrats did better than expected, many Democrats, and you included, seemed to take away that there wasn't this rightward shift among the Latino community. In fact, you said, and I'm quoting your reporters, we're talking about realignment. There's no effing realignment.

Hmm. You know, after the midterms in 2022, when Democrats did better than expected, many Democrats, and you included, seemed to take away that there wasn't this rightward shift among the Latino community. In fact, you said, and I'm quoting your reporters, we're talking about realignment. There's no effing realignment.

That's not the word you used. Why did you get it wrong?

That's not the word you used. Why did you get it wrong?

He eventually went to Harvard and then became a Marine fighting in Iraq and ultimately ended up in politics where he says his story of struggle and success helped him connect to voters. He has a lot of advice for and criticism of Democrats right now, as I discovered when I sat down with him earlier this week in Washington, D.C., Here's my conversation with Senator Ruben Gallego.

He eventually went to Harvard and then became a Marine fighting in Iraq and ultimately ended up in politics where he says his story of struggle and success helped him connect to voters. He has a lot of advice for and criticism of Democrats right now, as I discovered when I sat down with him earlier this week in Washington, D.C., Here's my conversation with Senator Ruben Gallego.

I was actually shocked to learn that President Trump was the first sitting president to go to a Super Bowl game.

I was actually shocked to learn that President Trump was the first sitting president to go to a Super Bowl game.

You said three ways that you can travel. You can travel as a tourist.

You said three ways that you can travel. You can travel as a tourist.

A traveler. And then the third one was as a pilgrim.

A traveler. And then the third one was as a pilgrim.

Explain to me the third one. I get the distinction between the first two.

Explain to me the third one. I get the distinction between the first two.

I'm listening to you talk, and the philosophy is beautiful. This idea of communion with the world, with connection with other people. But there is a shift happening in the world right now, I think, towards isolationism, nativism, a fundamental suspicion of difference. We're in a world that travels... More than it ever has. And yet, what seems to be happening is not what you would hope.

I'm listening to you talk, and the philosophy is beautiful. This idea of communion with the world, with connection with other people. But there is a shift happening in the world right now, I think, towards isolationism, nativism, a fundamental suspicion of difference. We're in a world that travels... More than it ever has. And yet, what seems to be happening is not what you would hope.

And I'm just wondering what you make of those changes.

And I'm just wondering what you make of those changes.

But isn't that what a guidebook is ultimately? It's, I mean, they're just placing value on a different thing, which is an image and a place. But I mean, a guidebook points you to a certain direction and tells you this is the thing that you need to go do in this particular place.

But isn't that what a guidebook is ultimately? It's, I mean, they're just placing value on a different thing, which is an image and a place. But I mean, a guidebook points you to a certain direction and tells you this is the thing that you need to go do in this particular place.

When you reread those diaries, what did it evoke in you when you looked at that 23-year-old with the hindsight of age now?

When you reread those diaries, what did it evoke in you when you looked at that 23-year-old with the hindsight of age now?

Do you think social media is ruining travel? I'm thinking about how most people I know, especially younger people, get their travel recommendations from TikTok and from Instagram.

Do you think social media is ruining travel? I'm thinking about how most people I know, especially younger people, get their travel recommendations from TikTok and from Instagram.

What did that make you feel?

What did that make you feel?

We've seen protests in Europe over tourism. In Barcelona, residents this summer were squirting visitors with water guns and chanting things like, tourists go home.

We've seen protests in Europe over tourism. In Barcelona, residents this summer were squirting visitors with water guns and chanting things like, tourists go home.

Is there anywhere that you regret having popularized?

Is there anywhere that you regret having popularized?

So wait, I'm hearing a lot of different things.

So wait, I'm hearing a lot of different things.

How do you feel about that transformation? Because there's the good stuff, they're affluent, but then there's the bad stuff that their way of life is changing, which is at the center of this industry that you've given your life to.

How do you feel about that transformation? Because there's the good stuff, they're affluent, but then there's the bad stuff that their way of life is changing, which is at the center of this industry that you've given your life to.

That's so interesting that you have to consider that now.

That's so interesting that you have to consider that now.

I am going to talk to you again. But in the time we have left, I want to return to the question of the world and how it's changing. Because you responded to my question about nativism and fear of difference by talking about social media. But I think there's something more fundamental going on.

I am going to talk to you again. But in the time we have left, I want to return to the question of the world and how it's changing. Because you responded to my question about nativism and fear of difference by talking about social media. But I think there's something more fundamental going on.

Perhaps you might be overstating the transformative power of this thing that you do.

Perhaps you might be overstating the transformative power of this thing that you do.

After the break, I call Rick back to ask about what he's sacrificed for a life on the road.

After the break, I call Rick back to ask about what he's sacrificed for a life on the road.

Good morning.

Good morning.

I'm good. How are you?

I'm good. How are you?

I see that you're at home right now. I want to ask you about your home because you have traveled all over the world, and yet you have always lived in the place where you grew up. Why is that?

I see that you're at home right now. I want to ask you about your home because you have traveled all over the world, and yet you have always lived in the place where you grew up. Why is that?

Oh, my goodness. That's an amazing view. And indeed, I can see your school.

Oh, my goodness. That's an amazing view. And indeed, I can see your school.

Most people would not want that memory infused.

Most people would not want that memory infused.

Rick, I did want to ask you about something pretty significant in your life. You've been very open about receiving a diagnosis of prostate cancer. How are you doing?

Rick, I did want to ask you about something pretty significant in your life. You've been very open about receiving a diagnosis of prostate cancer. How are you doing?