Maggie Haberman

At least not so far, Michael. You are absolutely correct that this is a much broader scale of tariffs than what he tried doing in the first term. And I think part of this is because he learned some lessons that may have been the wrong ones from the first term.

At least not so far, Michael. You are absolutely correct that this is a much broader scale of tariffs than what he tried doing in the first term. And I think part of this is because he learned some lessons that may have been the wrong ones from the first term.

So in term one, he had a group of advisors who were often at odds with each other about economic policy, but he had some really strong anti-tariff voices. Trump would suggest some version of an expansive tariff, and his... Anti-tariff economic advisers would strenuously object and push back very aggressively. And Trump would then reverse course and back off of that.

So in term one, he had a group of advisors who were often at odds with each other about economic policy, but he had some really strong anti-tariff voices. Trump would suggest some version of an expansive tariff, and his... Anti-tariff economic advisers would strenuously object and push back very aggressively. And Trump would then reverse course and back off of that.

Trump's lesson appears to have been things didn't go that badly. The market didn't crash completely. Joe Biden kept some tariffs on in terms of China. My advisers were wrong. Tariffs are good and I can go bigger this time. But it was a very different economy then. It was a much more thriving economy. It was a pre-coronavirus pandemic economy, among other things.

Trump's lesson appears to have been things didn't go that badly. The market didn't crash completely. Joe Biden kept some tariffs on in terms of China. My advisers were wrong. Tariffs are good and I can go bigger this time. But it was a very different economy then. It was a much more thriving economy. It was a pre-coronavirus pandemic economy, among other things.

It is kind of apples and oranges in a very different economy.

It is kind of apples and oranges in a very different economy.

There is a clear understanding in the administration that there is some whipsawing going on. So there was this meeting a week ago about how to handle the messaging at the Naval Observatory, which is the vice president's residence. And there was Howard Lutnick, the commerce secretary, Susie Wiles, the White House chief of staff, Jameson Greer, the U.S. trade representative, among others.

There is a clear understanding in the administration that there is some whipsawing going on. So there was this meeting a week ago about how to handle the messaging at the Naval Observatory, which is the vice president's residence. And there was Howard Lutnick, the commerce secretary, Susie Wiles, the White House chief of staff, Jameson Greer, the U.S. trade representative, among others.

Some big shots. Big shots, very important voices in this discussion. And as we understand it, it was about dealing with the messaging and explaining to the public what is happening, trying to better explain what the tariffs are, when they might be coming. I haven't seen much evidence that that yielded a change in approach.

Some big shots. Big shots, very important voices in this discussion. And as we understand it, it was about dealing with the messaging and explaining to the public what is happening, trying to better explain what the tariffs are, when they might be coming. I haven't seen much evidence that that yielded a change in approach.

Correct. And... They are never really able to say the problem is partly stemming from the top. So it has to be how does the lower tier of people just below him deal with this when they're talking to television cameras and to reporters as opposed to saying the president is saying things that are complicated and convoluted.

Correct. And... They are never really able to say the problem is partly stemming from the top. So it has to be how does the lower tier of people just below him deal with this when they're talking to television cameras and to reporters as opposed to saying the president is saying things that are complicated and convoluted.

It's an untenable position. And the two people who are out there the most talking about this tariff program are two financiers, Howard Lutnick, the Commerce Secretary, and Scott Besant, the Treasury Secretary. And so they are describing an economic program that clearly has not been their lifelong economic exposure and project. Right.

It's an untenable position. And the two people who are out there the most talking about this tariff program are two financiers, Howard Lutnick, the Commerce Secretary, and Scott Besant, the Treasury Secretary. And so they are describing an economic program that clearly has not been their lifelong economic exposure and project. Right.

And so there are inherent contradictions, as you said, in what they are trying to tell the public they should take from this. And I don't really see that resolving anytime soon.

And so there are inherent contradictions, as you said, in what they are trying to tell the public they should take from this. And I don't really see that resolving anytime soon.

Right. And to be fair to them and to the president, the president's agenda is the agenda. Right. And if you're going to serve a president, you should be expected that you're going to be asked to defend their policies. But often, and particularly with Lutnick, the conversation in interviews swings to the president's a genius.

Right. And to be fair to them and to the president, the president's agenda is the agenda. Right. And if you're going to serve a president, you should be expected that you're going to be asked to defend their policies. But often, and particularly with Lutnick, the conversation in interviews swings to the president's a genius.