Matthew May, MD

David, could I invite you to demonstrate how to find a self-defeating belief in a role play?

David, could I invite you to demonstrate how to find a self-defeating belief in a role play?

Yeah, I was going to ask you to demonstrate the what if technique and I'll pretend to be a patient.

Yeah, I was going to ask you to demonstrate the what if technique and I'll pretend to be a patient.

I think we'll find our way there with this one. I've pre-written something. Okay. And I think this will be a way to bring it to life. Let's say I've got a belief or a negative thought that I'll fail my test tomorrow.

I think we'll find our way there with this one. I've pre-written something. Okay. And I think this will be a way to bring it to life. Let's say I've got a belief or a negative thought that I'll fail my test tomorrow.

And I'm freaking out because I'm afraid I'll fail my test.

And I'm freaking out because I'm afraid I'll fail my test.

Right back at you, David.

Right back at you, David.

Well, then maybe I'll never get a good job. I'll never get a good job.

Well, then maybe I'll never get a good job. I'll never get a good job.

That would mean I would be worthless.

That would mean I would be worthless.

It's even worse than that. Then everyone would reject me.

It's even worse than that. Then everyone would reject me.

Everyone would reject me because I'd be so worthless.

Everyone would reject me because I'd be so worthless.

I would be the most worthless person, but then I would also then be miserable forever.

I would be the most worthless person, but then I would also then be miserable forever.

If that were true.

If that were true.

Yeah, yeah. I was... trying to create a very realistic sample of what it's like to go through this process of an uncovering technique to arrive at the self-defeating beliefs. And I think that that went really well, and I agreed with all of those points.

Yeah, yeah. I was... trying to create a very realistic sample of what it's like to go through this process of an uncovering technique to arrive at the self-defeating beliefs. And I think that that went really well, and I agreed with all of those points.

that Rhonda and you named, I summarized it as, I must be successful, accomplished, productive, and popular, or I'm worthless and will be miserable forever. That I require all those things in order to be worthwhile and happy.

that Rhonda and you named, I summarized it as, I must be successful, accomplished, productive, and popular, or I'm worthless and will be miserable forever. That I require all those things in order to be worthwhile and happy.

Well said, David. I really appreciate that also.

Well said, David. I really appreciate that also.

That's cool. I have a response to your question about a Buddhist way of thinking about self-defeating beliefs, too. I'm not a Buddhist, but I like— There are no Buddhists at the time in the United States. Is that right? Yeah. I'm just sort of beginning as a Buddhist. But the—

That's cool. I have a response to your question about a Buddhist way of thinking about self-defeating beliefs, too. I'm not a Buddhist, but I like— There are no Buddhists at the time in the United States. Is that right? Yeah. I'm just sort of beginning as a Buddhist. But the—

I think a thought like, you know, I need this or that or this other thing before I could approve of myself and love myself or be happy or feel worthwhile is, like Jason said, it's this concept of attachment. I need these things before I could be okay. I think the Buddha pointed out that that is a common thing.

I think a thought like, you know, I need this or that or this other thing before I could approve of myself and love myself or be happy or feel worthwhile is, like Jason said, it's this concept of attachment. I need these things before I could be okay. I think the Buddha pointed out that that is a common thing.

problem that people have that they don't want to be happy right now they want all these other things first and that if we let if we're willing to sacrifice and let go of those requirements then we can be happy right here right now yeah and if we're not if we're attached if we're demanding we have to have these other things then we simply cannot be happy in that moment i i i love that um

problem that people have that they don't want to be happy right now they want all these other things first and that if we let if we're willing to sacrifice and let go of those requirements then we can be happy right here right now yeah and if we're not if we're attached if we're demanding we have to have these other things then we simply cannot be happy in that moment i i i love that um

And the acceptance paradox. Yes. We've probably demonstrated that a hundred times, but we could always do it again for one of these self-defeating beliefs.

And the acceptance paradox. Yes. We've probably demonstrated that a hundred times, but we could always do it again for one of these self-defeating beliefs.

The achievement addiction? Yeah. I'm worthless. Maybe I could play, do you want me to play the negative thought in a role play?

The achievement addiction? Yeah. I'm worthless. Maybe I could play, do you want me to play the negative thought in a role play?

My worth is my work. OK, my achievements, I have to be really successful in order to be worthwhile.

My worth is my work. OK, my achievements, I have to be really successful in order to be worthwhile.

Yeah, David, I'm your negative thoughts, and I just wanted to let you know that you're getting older, you're less successful, you're not accomplishing as much. And I just wanted you to know that that means that you're worthless.

Yeah, David, I'm your negative thoughts, and I just wanted to let you know that you're getting older, you're less successful, you're not accomplishing as much. And I just wanted you to know that that means that you're worthless.

Yeah. I think that was a good example of the counterattack.

Yeah. I think that was a good example of the counterattack.

Yeah, definitely. I've been looking forward to meeting up with you again.

Yeah, definitely. I've been looking forward to meeting up with you again.

So many. So many. I don't even know all of them.

So many. So many. I don't even know all of them.

I'm not, though. And that's another flaw that I have is that I have such low standards that I just go around approving of myself for no reason at all.

I'm not, though. And that's another flaw that I have is that I have such low standards that I just go around approving of myself for no reason at all.

Someone should write a book called Feeling Good.

Someone should write a book called Feeling Good.

I like that idea a lot, David. I didn't hear all the thoughts. They went by kind of quickly.

I like that idea a lot, David. I didn't hear all the thoughts. They went by kind of quickly.

I would be willing to try that.

I would be willing to try that.

I definitely feel nervous and kind of worried about the talk. But I think even if I really mess it up, that most people are really kind and forgiving. And I could just ask them for feedback and connect with them even if I really mess it up. I think I've also done a good job practicing and preparing. And I know a lot about the topic.

I definitely feel nervous and kind of worried about the talk. But I think even if I really mess it up, that most people are really kind and forgiving. And I could just ask them for feedback and connect with them even if I really mess it up. I think I've also done a good job practicing and preparing. And I know a lot about the topic.

So I bet I can actually do a pretty good job even if I'm just winging it. And either way, I'm going to be satisfied with the outcome.

So I bet I can actually do a pretty good job even if I'm just winging it. And either way, I'm going to be satisfied with the outcome.

I think I won that one.

I think I won that one.

Large or huge? I think it was pretty huge. There might be room for something else in there.

Large or huge? I think it was pretty huge. There might be room for something else in there.

Let's try that again.

Let's try that again.

It felt huge to me. I'm going to say that was huge.

It felt huge to me. I'm going to say that was huge.

Well, you'll probably outshine me, Rhonda.

Well, you'll probably outshine me, Rhonda.

Go for it, David.

Go for it, David.

I think you should.

I think you should.

You can hit me with that, Rhonda, if you'd like.

You can hit me with that, Rhonda, if you'd like.

I did. I was thinking the same thing. I was thinking, oh, my gosh, what am I talking about? I'm not making any sense here at all, and I was feeling kind of anxious and worried. I'm such a relief to talk to you about it. I'd love to get your thoughts on it, and I just so admire you for being a straight shooter. Oh, yeah, thanks. Your opinion on my talk.

I did. I was thinking the same thing. I was thinking, oh, my gosh, what am I talking about? I'm not making any sense here at all, and I was feeling kind of anxious and worried. I'm such a relief to talk to you about it. I'd love to get your thoughts on it, and I just so admire you for being a straight shooter. Oh, yeah, thanks. Your opinion on my talk.

Well, I've always thought that you're a really awesome, important human being, and I'm really glad for the feedback. If you have any specific pointers for where I could improve, I'd be delighted to hear about that. But I don't want to hold you up. It looks like they're kind of waiting for you over there.

Well, I've always thought that you're a really awesome, important human being, and I'm really glad for the feedback. If you have any specific pointers for where I could improve, I'd be delighted to hear about that. But I don't want to hold you up. It looks like they're kind of waiting for you over there.

I felt good about that.

I felt good about that.

I do, David, and I've also got some other thoughts that might be helpful for this person.

I do, David, and I've also got some other thoughts that might be helpful for this person.

Yeah. Right. So you're pointing out that maybe it's not so much the anxiety that's the problem but the shame around it.

Yeah. Right. So you're pointing out that maybe it's not so much the anxiety that's the problem but the shame around it.

Yeah. And so I, I agree. I think one of the best, uh, antidotes is to start talking about the feelings openly. And that's, uh, and there are multiple other social exposure exercises that people, uh, with social anxiety can do, uh, that can relieve.

Yeah. And so I, I agree. I think one of the best, uh, antidotes is to start talking about the feelings openly. And that's, uh, and there are multiple other social exposure exercises that people, uh, with social anxiety can do, uh, that can relieve.

Self-disclosure. Right. Yeah. You know, I noticed I'm feeling a little anxious right now. Um, and then, uh, positive reframing can be helpful too. Like we get anxious because we care a lot about this project that we're doing in this audience and we want to give something really meaningful to people. And to remind ourselves of that can be helpful.

Self-disclosure. Right. Yeah. You know, I noticed I'm feeling a little anxious right now. Um, and then, uh, positive reframing can be helpful too. Like we get anxious because we care a lot about this project that we're doing in this audience and we want to give something really meaningful to people. And to remind ourselves of that can be helpful.

I'll sometimes use the magic dial on myself, like how anxious do I need to feel right now to make sure everything goes perfectly.

I'll sometimes use the magic dial on myself, like how anxious do I need to feel right now to make sure everything goes perfectly.

I have a couple of other comments. I love what Jason and David and Rhonda have already said about this. One concern I have is that sometimes people with anxiety are hoping that the anxiety will go away first, and then they'll face their fears. But my experience has always been the opposite, that if I'm facing my fears on a regular basis, then my anxiety goes away.

I have a couple of other comments. I love what Jason and David and Rhonda have already said about this. One concern I have is that sometimes people with anxiety are hoping that the anxiety will go away first, and then they'll face their fears. But my experience has always been the opposite, that if I'm facing my fears on a regular basis, then my anxiety goes away.

And so it may just be that there's kind of a process resistance and that one of the best techniques this person could do is just to keep giving public speeches and more frequently and longer speeches and get more involved in that. And then I suspect their anxiety, in fact, would kind of go away over time.

And so it may just be that there's kind of a process resistance and that one of the best techniques this person could do is just to keep giving public speeches and more frequently and longer speeches and get more involved in that. And then I suspect their anxiety, in fact, would kind of go away over time.

All right. I'm happy to say a few things about it. Maybe to clear up one point quickly is that, in fact, you can work with a self-defeating belief the same way you would any other negative thought in the team model. In fact, if you've learned other ways to defeat negative thoughts, you can just apply that to your self-defeating belief.

All right. I'm happy to say a few things about it. Maybe to clear up one point quickly is that, in fact, you can work with a self-defeating belief the same way you would any other negative thought in the team model. In fact, if you've learned other ways to defeat negative thoughts, you can just apply that to your self-defeating belief.

That was a little fantasy right there. Yeah, exactly. Acceptance.

That was a little fantasy right there. Yeah, exactly. Acceptance.

I think it might be useful just to define what a self-defeating belief is. I noticed that I struggle a little bit to define exactly what a self-defeating belief is. I might use words like a summary of or composite of negative thoughts. It's...

I think it might be useful just to define what a self-defeating belief is. I noticed that I struggle a little bit to define exactly what a self-defeating belief is. I might use words like a summary of or composite of negative thoughts. It's...

It's tempting to use words like core or a central thought, and it seems almost – I imagine like a fire and little sparks coming out from it and kind of igniting other negative thoughts. And I've put up an example of how to find your self-defeating beliefs in the show notes using uncovering techniques. Okay. And so what is an uncovering technique?

It's tempting to use words like core or a central thought, and it seems almost – I imagine like a fire and little sparks coming out from it and kind of igniting other negative thoughts. And I've put up an example of how to find your self-defeating beliefs in the show notes using uncovering techniques. Okay. And so what is an uncovering technique?

Maybe I'll leave that as a new thing to define and someone else can talk for a little bit.

Maybe I'll leave that as a new thing to define and someone else can talk for a little bit.