Maureen Thorson

Well, based on the hairbrush case we talked about, it seems like you wouldn't have a functioning shoe here until you glued on that sole. Like, that's the step that would create a change in the name and use and character, right? Yes, right?

Well, based on the hairbrush case we talked about, it seems like you wouldn't have a functioning shoe here until you glued on that sole. Like, that's the step that would create a change in the name and use and character, right? Yes, right?

Well, based on the hairbrush case we talked about, it seems like you wouldn't have a functioning shoe here until you glued on that sole. Like, that's the step that would create a change in the name and use and character, right? Yes, right?

The name of this big boat shoes case was Uniroyal. And Larry says Uniroyal spread the idea that a substantial transformation involves more than just giving something a new name or character or use. You might have to change something's essence.

The name of this big boat shoes case was Uniroyal. And Larry says Uniroyal spread the idea that a substantial transformation involves more than just giving something a new name or character or use. You might have to change something's essence.

The name of this big boat shoes case was Uniroyal. And Larry says Uniroyal spread the idea that a substantial transformation involves more than just giving something a new name or character or use. You might have to change something's essence.

These days, you can build an entire laptop in China where most of the parts and labor come from China. But if the motherboard is from Vietnam, customs might say that laptop is actually Vietnamese because the essence of the laptop is in the motherboard.

These days, you can build an entire laptop in China where most of the parts and labor come from China. But if the motherboard is from Vietnam, customs might say that laptop is actually Vietnamese because the essence of the laptop is in the motherboard.

These days, you can build an entire laptop in China where most of the parts and labor come from China. But if the motherboard is from Vietnam, customs might say that laptop is actually Vietnamese because the essence of the laptop is in the motherboard.

As an international trade lawyer, Maureen helps companies navigate the complicated world of tariffs, a world that is also full of questions about what makes this this or that that.

As an international trade lawyer, Maureen helps companies navigate the complicated world of tariffs, a world that is also full of questions about what makes this this or that that.

As an international trade lawyer, Maureen helps companies navigate the complicated world of tariffs, a world that is also full of questions about what makes this this or that that.

Yes. And this sticky note situation happened back in 2020. This was shortly after Trump put a bunch of tariffs on products from China. And Staples, the office supply company, was trying to figure out what is the country of origin of our sticky notes? Like, do we have to pay the tariffs on China? Yeah.

Yes. And this sticky note situation happened back in 2020. This was shortly after Trump put a bunch of tariffs on products from China. And Staples, the office supply company, was trying to figure out what is the country of origin of our sticky notes? Like, do we have to pay the tariffs on China? Yeah.

Yes. And this sticky note situation happened back in 2020. This was shortly after Trump put a bunch of tariffs on products from China. And Staples, the office supply company, was trying to figure out what is the country of origin of our sticky notes? Like, do we have to pay the tariffs on China? Yeah.

And the decision that customs came to about where the sticky notes were last substantially transformed, it really threw us for a loop. So we asked Maureen Thorson to help us make sense of their logic.

And the decision that customs came to about where the sticky notes were last substantially transformed, it really threw us for a loop. So we asked Maureen Thorson to help us make sense of their logic.

And the decision that customs came to about where the sticky notes were last substantially transformed, it really threw us for a loop. So we asked Maureen Thorson to help us make sense of their logic.

Yeah, I'm going to go out on an obvious limb here and say that it seems like the essence of a sticky note is like the meeting of paper and glue. It's like the moment where the paper and the glue come together.

Yeah, I'm going to go out on an obvious limb here and say that it seems like the essence of a sticky note is like the meeting of paper and glue. It's like the moment where the paper and the glue come together.

Yeah, I'm going to go out on an obvious limb here and say that it seems like the essence of a sticky note is like the meeting of paper and glue. It's like the moment where the paper and the glue come together.

But customs did not see it that way. And partly they were thinking, well, is it that big of a deal to just cut up some paper and add glue to it? We should be focused on the more complicated step of actually making the paper. Because the paper is the essence of a sticky note.

But customs did not see it that way. And partly they were thinking, well, is it that big of a deal to just cut up some paper and add glue to it? We should be focused on the more complicated step of actually making the paper. Because the paper is the essence of a sticky note.

But customs did not see it that way. And partly they were thinking, well, is it that big of a deal to just cut up some paper and add glue to it? We should be focused on the more complicated step of actually making the paper. Because the paper is the essence of a sticky note.

And there is another way to do this. Whenever we sign individual free trade agreements with other countries, they will often insist on not using our weird, loosey-goosey substantial transformation test. For our free trade deal with Canada and Mexico, we had to agree on a new system with a whole compendium of extremely specific rules for determining a product's country of origin.

And there is another way to do this. Whenever we sign individual free trade agreements with other countries, they will often insist on not using our weird, loosey-goosey substantial transformation test. For our free trade deal with Canada and Mexico, we had to agree on a new system with a whole compendium of extremely specific rules for determining a product's country of origin.

And there is another way to do this. Whenever we sign individual free trade agreements with other countries, they will often insist on not using our weird, loosey-goosey substantial transformation test. For our free trade deal with Canada and Mexico, we had to agree on a new system with a whole compendium of extremely specific rules for determining a product's country of origin.

Depending on the product, the rules might have to do with how much labor came from a country, or the value of the parts that came from a country, or even whether a key chemical reaction happened in a given country.

Depending on the product, the rules might have to do with how much labor came from a country, or the value of the parts that came from a country, or even whether a key chemical reaction happened in a given country.

Depending on the product, the rules might have to do with how much labor came from a country, or the value of the parts that came from a country, or even whether a key chemical reaction happened in a given country.

But also, country of origin just didn't matter as much in the past. For decades, our tariffs treated most countries more or less the same. But recently, that has all started to change. Since April, Maureen's been on the phone with her clients at all hours trying to explain to them our weird and wacky system of determining country of origin.

But also, country of origin just didn't matter as much in the past. For decades, our tariffs treated most countries more or less the same. But recently, that has all started to change. Since April, Maureen's been on the phone with her clients at all hours trying to explain to them our weird and wacky system of determining country of origin.

But also, country of origin just didn't matter as much in the past. For decades, our tariffs treated most countries more or less the same. But recently, that has all started to change. Since April, Maureen's been on the phone with her clients at all hours trying to explain to them our weird and wacky system of determining country of origin.

Special thanks to Bill Reinsch, Robert Shapiro, and Damon Pike. I'm Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi.

Special thanks to Bill Reinsch, Robert Shapiro, and Damon Pike. I'm Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi.

Special thanks to Bill Reinsch, Robert Shapiro, and Damon Pike. I'm Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi.

For Maureen's clients, those questions matter now more than ever. On April 2nd, President Donald Trump announced his plan to put big new tariffs on dozens of countries. And we caught up with Maureen just a couple days later.

For Maureen's clients, those questions matter now more than ever. On April 2nd, President Donald Trump announced his plan to put big new tariffs on dozens of countries. And we caught up with Maureen just a couple days later.

For Maureen's clients, those questions matter now more than ever. On April 2nd, President Donald Trump announced his plan to put big new tariffs on dozens of countries. And we caught up with Maureen just a couple days later.

But figuring out something's country of origin is far from simple.

But figuring out something's country of origin is far from simple.

But figuring out something's country of origin is far from simple.

For example, imagine you take peanuts that were grown in China, ship them to a factory in Brazil and grind them into peanut butter. Is that peanut butter a product of China or has it become a product of Brazil?

For example, imagine you take peanuts that were grown in China, ship them to a factory in Brazil and grind them into peanut butter. Is that peanut butter a product of China or has it become a product of Brazil?

For example, imagine you take peanuts that were grown in China, ship them to a factory in Brazil and grind them into peanut butter. Is that peanut butter a product of China or has it become a product of Brazil?

And I'm Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi. Virtually everything that's imported into the United States, by law, must have a so-called country of origin, the place where it officially came from. And figuring out that country of origin matters because that's what customs goes by when it's enforcing tariffs.

And I'm Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi. Virtually everything that's imported into the United States, by law, must have a so-called country of origin, the place where it officially came from. And figuring out that country of origin matters because that's what customs goes by when it's enforcing tariffs.

And I'm Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi. Virtually everything that's imported into the United States, by law, must have a so-called country of origin, the place where it officially came from. And figuring out that country of origin matters because that's what customs goes by when it's enforcing tariffs.

So let's start with the rules for American products. When something says it's made in USA, that doesn't just mean that it's manufactured in the United States. It also means that virtually all of the parts and ingredients and labor came from the USA.

So let's start with the rules for American products. When something says it's made in USA, that doesn't just mean that it's manufactured in the United States. It also means that virtually all of the parts and ingredients and labor came from the USA.

So let's start with the rules for American products. When something says it's made in USA, that doesn't just mean that it's manufactured in the United States. It also means that virtually all of the parts and ingredients and labor came from the USA.

There are some exceptions for things like clothing and some types of meat. But basically, if an American product isn't 100% American, it cannot say made in the USA.

There are some exceptions for things like clothing and some types of meat. But basically, if an American product isn't 100% American, it cannot say made in the USA.

There are some exceptions for things like clothing and some types of meat. But basically, if an American product isn't 100% American, it cannot say made in the USA.

The rules are very different for products that are not American. Basically, anything that's imported has to be labeled with the main country it came from. It's so-called country of origin. That's been the law since 1890, when Congress wanted consumers to know where their imported products were coming from. So those labels that say product of China or product of France, they are not optional.

The rules are very different for products that are not American. Basically, anything that's imported has to be labeled with the main country it came from. It's so-called country of origin. That's been the law since 1890, when Congress wanted consumers to know where their imported products were coming from. So those labels that say product of China or product of France, they are not optional.

The rules are very different for products that are not American. Basically, anything that's imported has to be labeled with the main country it came from. It's so-called country of origin. That's been the law since 1890, when Congress wanted consumers to know where their imported products were coming from. So those labels that say product of China or product of France, they are not optional.

Maureen has helped companies import a lot of different products. She's not allowed to say exactly what she's worked on, but it's things like industrial engines and smartphones and also flowerpots. She helps companies figure out that product's country of origin, get it labeled right, and declare it to customs.

Maureen has helped companies import a lot of different products. She's not allowed to say exactly what she's worked on, but it's things like industrial engines and smartphones and also flowerpots. She helps companies figure out that product's country of origin, get it labeled right, and declare it to customs.

Maureen has helped companies import a lot of different products. She's not allowed to say exactly what she's worked on, but it's things like industrial engines and smartphones and also flowerpots. She helps companies figure out that product's country of origin, get it labeled right, and declare it to customs.

Now, we should say for many years, companies didn't think too, too hard about country of origin. Most of the time, what you labeled something or what you declared to customs didn't matter that much because for most countries, tariffs didn't really differ that much.

Now, we should say for many years, companies didn't think too, too hard about country of origin. Most of the time, what you labeled something or what you declared to customs didn't matter that much because for most countries, tariffs didn't really differ that much.

Now, we should say for many years, companies didn't think too, too hard about country of origin. Most of the time, what you labeled something or what you declared to customs didn't matter that much because for most countries, tariffs didn't really differ that much.

Other companies were trying to switch up their manufacturing so their products wouldn't count as made in China anymore. They're asking Maureen, how much can I bend the definition of made in China?

Other companies were trying to switch up their manufacturing so their products wouldn't count as made in China anymore. They're asking Maureen, how much can I bend the definition of made in China?

Other companies were trying to switch up their manufacturing so their products wouldn't count as made in China anymore. They're asking Maureen, how much can I bend the definition of made in China?

Word for word.

Word for word.

Word for word.

A new name, use, or character. That is the entire rule. And the way it works is, if you send something to, say, Vietnam, and there you change it enough that you're basically turning it into a new thing, you're giving it a new name, use, or character, then that thing now counts as a product of Vietnam. A new name, use, or character.

A new name, use, or character. That is the entire rule. And the way it works is, if you send something to, say, Vietnam, and there you change it enough that you're basically turning it into a new thing, you're giving it a new name, use, or character, then that thing now counts as a product of Vietnam. A new name, use, or character.

A new name, use, or character. That is the entire rule. And the way it works is, if you send something to, say, Vietnam, and there you change it enough that you're basically turning it into a new thing, you're giving it a new name, use, or character, then that thing now counts as a product of Vietnam. A new name, use, or character.

Larry says the origin of the substantial transformation test was this Supreme Court case from 1908 involving corks. A U.S. company was importing corks from Spain, cleaning them up a bit, stamping on a logo, and the Supreme Court said...

Larry says the origin of the substantial transformation test was this Supreme Court case from 1908 involving corks. A U.S. company was importing corks from Spain, cleaning them up a bit, stamping on a logo, and the Supreme Court said...

Larry says the origin of the substantial transformation test was this Supreme Court case from 1908 involving corks. A U.S. company was importing corks from Spain, cleaning them up a bit, stamping on a logo, and the Supreme Court said...

That is not a substantial transformation, because cleaning up the corks did not give them a new name, it didn't change how they were used, and it didn't really even change their character. They started out as corks, and they were still corks here in the U.S.

That is not a substantial transformation, because cleaning up the corks did not give them a new name, it didn't change how they were used, and it didn't really even change their character. They started out as corks, and they were still corks here in the U.S.

That is not a substantial transformation, because cleaning up the corks did not give them a new name, it didn't change how they were used, and it didn't really even change their character. They started out as corks, and they were still corks here in the U.S.

To tell the story of how the thinking around name, character, and use has evolved over the decades, we're going to walk through three examples. The first one is from the 1940s, and it involves hairbrushes.

To tell the story of how the thinking around name, character, and use has evolved over the decades, we're going to walk through three examples. The first one is from the 1940s, and it involves hairbrushes.

To tell the story of how the thinking around name, character, and use has evolved over the decades, we're going to walk through three examples. The first one is from the 1940s, and it involves hairbrushes.

That's going to be a big yes for me, Doug. Look, this thing's getting a new name, a character, and a new use. You can't just use some block of wood to brush your hair. Come on. Right.

That's going to be a big yes for me, Doug. Look, this thing's getting a new name, a character, and a new use. You can't just use some block of wood to brush your hair. Come on. Right.

That's going to be a big yes for me, Doug. Look, this thing's getting a new name, a character, and a new use. You can't just use some block of wood to brush your hair. Come on. Right.

And asking those questions is kind of her job, but not just because she's a poet. You see, Maureen also happens to be one of the top international trade lawyers in America. Sort of poet by night, trade lawyer by day.

And asking those questions is kind of her job, but not just because she's a poet. You see, Maureen also happens to be one of the top international trade lawyers in America. Sort of poet by night, trade lawyer by day.

And asking those questions is kind of her job, but not just because she's a poet. You see, Maureen also happens to be one of the top international trade lawyers in America. Sort of poet by night, trade lawyer by day.

But by the 1980s, manufacturing was getting way more complicated. You could argue that any step in the process changed a product's name, character, or use. So where would Quartz draw the line? All of this came to a head in a fight over... Boat shoes. That's coming up after the break.

But by the 1980s, manufacturing was getting way more complicated. You could argue that any step in the process changed a product's name, character, or use. So where would Quartz draw the line? All of this came to a head in a fight over... Boat shoes. That's coming up after the break.

But by the 1980s, manufacturing was getting way more complicated. You could argue that any step in the process changed a product's name, character, or use. So where would Quartz draw the line? All of this came to a head in a fight over... Boat shoes. That's coming up after the break.

Yeah, a smartphone might be made out of parts from dozens of countries, and those parts themselves are made up of other smaller parts from dozens of other countries, all of which makes the process of trying to figure out something's country of origin incredibly tricky.

Yeah, a smartphone might be made out of parts from dozens of countries, and those parts themselves are made up of other smaller parts from dozens of other countries, all of which makes the process of trying to figure out something's country of origin incredibly tricky.

Yeah, a smartphone might be made out of parts from dozens of countries, and those parts themselves are made up of other smaller parts from dozens of other countries, all of which makes the process of trying to figure out something's country of origin incredibly tricky.