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Michael Owen

Appearances

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

1024.093

that brought Ira to a new level where people were starting to compare him to one of his idols, Gilbert, W.S. Gilbert, with Gilbert and Sullivan fame.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

1049.671

They did love writing for Fred. And there was something about Stare's voice. It wasn't necessarily the most powerful or the most evocative, but he had the rhythm. Exactly, yeah. He had the feel for what George and Ira had in mind. And so even in the years after George's death,

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

1073.453

Ira wrote the songs for one of Fred's movie musicals, his reunion with Ginger Rogers in the 1940s, The Barclays at Broadway. Fred Astaire did the movie version of Funny Face in the 1950s with Audrey Hepburn. He did his own songbook, Gershwin Songbook Collection, or not a Gershwin Songbook Collection, but one that had a number of Gershwin songs on it.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

1099.102

So yeah, it was – they loved writing for him and Fred was just – and Adele, his sister who was actually more of a star in the early days than Fred was because they just had a certain rhythm. If you listen to the recordings that Fred and Adele did with George Gershwin in London in the 20s, you don't hear that sort of rhythm anymore from singers. It was something special.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

1125.808

very syncopated, and I think that people talk about how the interpretation, and this is going on to a different subject a little bit, but the interpretation of George Gershwin's music has become more flowing and romantic, lyrical in a way, whereas if you listen to George Gershwin playing the piano on the old recordings, it's very staccato, very syncopated, and you can really get a sense of what the 20s might have been like from listening to those songs.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

1154.975

More so than if you listen to a more contemporary recording, even the ones that are excellent in their own way.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

1171.829

It was actually written very quickly. When George and I came to Hollywood the second time in 1936 to write for RKO Pictures, to write for Astaire and Rogers, who were already a successful team, they came to Hollywood with a fair number of ideas already in mind. So the songs for that first of the three movies that they wound up doing in L.A. in the They all came together very quickly.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

1201.171

The songs are written to fit certain sequences in the film. This was one of them and one of the best. The songs that came from this movie and the other two movies are, in most people's opinion and mine too, the top flight songs that George and I wrote.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

1398.499

I think he was hard put to say what his favorite song was. He always said that it was like choosing your favorite child. I think it was one of his father's favorite songs because his father seemed to think that the line come to Papa do was about him.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

1416.43

Yes. It's a love song. The way that Ira described it in his book, Lyrics on Several Occasions, is that whenever that line would come up in the song, Morris Gershwin, that's his father, would sort of beat his chest and, you know, say, you know, that's about me. That's hilarious.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

1449.248

Well, everyone has their own interpretation of lyrics.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

1464.419

Well, I think it goes back to George... maybe having a slightly better understanding of the popular audience, that they weren't necessarily interested in tricky rhyme schemes.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

1480.324

Yeah, name checks of Russian composers and politicians and that. Largely because, as I think I said earlier, a theater audience isn't, certainly in the earlier days when amplification wasn't It was hard for people sometimes to hear the actual lyrics being sung, particularly if the band was loud, the pit band. And in some cases, it was quite loud.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

1511.599

And so this idea that keeping a song simple was better was... not always a happy thing for Ira to do. In at least a couple of instances, he would be almost forced in a way to Submit lyrics that he wasn't quite happy with, but he knew that the time was up and he had to do it. That was particularly the case with something like Love Walked In, which was a big hit from the Golden Follies in 1938.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

1550.538

And the song Long Ago and Far Away that he wrote with Jerome Kern in the 1940s for the movie Cover Girl. He was never overly happy with those lyrics, perhaps thinking that they were slightly too simple. But they were, conversely, two of his most financially successful songs.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

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And very singable, yes. You don't have to fall over a tricky beat somewhere.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

1691.823

I can try to straighten it out. It'll still probably remain slightly confusing. So George Gershwin and DuBose Hayward did not actually write together very often. Hayward was in the Carolinas and George was in New York. And there are certain songs that We know that Ira wrote himself.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

1713.43

Those were generally – people have generally said the songs that were written for Sport and Life, it ain't necessarily so and there's a book that's even for New York. Whereas some of the more –

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

1728.371

operatic songs, particularly in the first act, were largely the work of DuBose Hayward, and some actually were joint numbers, whether it was because Hayward happened to be in New York at that time and the three of them could work together, or Ira had taken a phrase or two from the libretto or from the novel or the play and turned it into the lyric, and so therefore he felt that this was a song that could

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

1758.769

be jointly credited to them. And the lyrics for the opera are credited to, in the original credits, to DuBose Hayward and Ira Gershwin jointly without any indication of who wrote what in that sense.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

1800.959

Correct. George arranged and orchestrated the entire opera.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

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This is a song from late in the opera where Sport and Life... Who's a pimp. The pimp, yes, the drug-dealing pimp in Catfish Row, tries to bring Bess back to his side by persuading her that he can bring her to New York, she can have a happy life as a prostitute. And wear the finest fashions.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

1846.706

And wear the finest fashions and take some happy dust and move away from these country folk who, you know, you're more like me, Bess. You're not one of these people. So that's basically the idea behind the song.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

1981.47

More the former, I think, than the latter. By 1954, when Ira wrote what turned out to be his last two significant works, the songs for Stars Born and for the drama The Country Girl with Bing Crosby and Grace Kelly, which was also written with Harold Arlen, he wrote a few songs for that. At times, it changed. Musical theater had changed.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

2005.427

Ira had had a couple of unsuccessful shows in the 40s with Kurt Weill and the composer Arthur Schwartz. So he was somewhat put off from writing for Broadway just because it seemed to him that it was too much effort at too much cost and not enough that was coming back to him. Music was changing. Obviously, we had rock and roll arriving in the 1950s and what was popular was changing.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

2033.908

Although the Gershwin songs, as you've mentioned, were becoming part of the world of what we call standards now. And people like Frank Sinatra and Tony Bennett and Peggy Lee and Billie Holiday were increasingly doing the songs on recordings and making for Ira quite a pleasant amount of money.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

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He just wasn't interested in what was going on in the world of movie musicals and theater at that point, enough to want to work in them anymore.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

2072.954

Well, Ivor died in 1983. He had been housebound for a number of years. His last real work was in the early 1960s. And so after the end of the 1960s, which was basically the last time he traveled to He increasingly stayed at his house. He had had a stroke and various other physical ailments over the years which were leaving him more incapacitated.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

2110.172

He was hospitalized on a number of occasions for different things related to his heart. I will say that his final years actually were quite good ones because Among other things was the arrival of a young man by the name of Michael Feinstein, who I know you've had on your show, who was hired initially to ... to entertain Ira and wound up working on Ira's archive.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

2141.779

I did some similar work to what Michael did in terms of the archive, but certainly not entertaining Ira. I wasn't around then. There was a piano that was brought up into Ira's bedroom and Michael spent a lot of time at the house. singing for Ira, some of the more obscure corners of Ira's catalog, which entertained a man who had become somewhat isolated. But it was a good life.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

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It was a successful life. And it's certainly one that is well remembered by those of us who love great songs, great lyrics, and the great American songbook.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

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I do. I shouldn't really give it away, but it is kind of how the book ends.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

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Yes, I saw Rosemary in one of her final performances in San Francisco. Not that I truly remember what she ended that concert with, but yes, she was always a great interpreter, and she did a complete— a recording of Ira lyrics on one of her Concord records in her later years.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

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Thank you, Terry. It's been a pleasure.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

269.104

Thank you, first off, for having me on. 1924 was absolutely a big year for Ira. Ira and George had brought them together for the first time as a songwriting team to write a Broadway show. And because Lady Be Good was such a success, it fostered the rest of their career together. But by the time the late 1950s came around when Ella Fitzgerald recorded the songbook, Ira's career had come to an end.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

294.629

He might not have known that at the time, but it did. We know that now. And the songbook, one of a series of songbooks that Ella Fitzgerald did of other songwriters of the period, brought a new light, a new focus on the songs that the brothers wrote. And so it was a commercial success. It was an artistic success.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

314.183

And it brought on a wealth of new recordings of those songs and others in the catalog and helped Ira financially quite well.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

359.337

They were only two years apart and they were the first and second children of Morris and Rose Gershwin. So they grew up together, even though. Their interests were very separate. George was somebody who went out and got into fights and came home with a black eye. Iroh was back in his room reading newspaper articles and magazines and books.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

384.176

So his life became more one of observation rather than activity, whereas George's life would have been a 180-degree difference from that.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

431.926

Well, all three of the writers who were friends, Harold Arlen, the composer, and Yip Harburg and Ira, who had been classmates and writing partners together before, when Arlen and Harburg had been hired to write the score at MGM for Wizard of Oz, they played the tune, Arlen's tune, that became Over the Rainbow for Ira because he was a sounding board. And

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

457.105

I must say that that was the way it was with all these writers of that period. They were all generally friendly to each other. I don't think there was a lot of competition. I mean, there was competition, obviously, but there wasn't angry competition.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

469.189

So when the song was finished, or at least when Harburg and Ireland thought the song was finished, they came over to Ira's house and Ireland sat down at the piano and played the tune and Harburg sang the song. And Ira liked it a lot, but he felt like that there was something missing at the end, a coda

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

488.703

And so Ira was the one who came up with the line about bluebirds flying at the end, which is one of the more famous lines from the song.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

502.854

Right. And I think that sums up the song in many ways. It sums up the film. It sums up Dorothy's journey. But I think he just was helping out his friends, and whether he got credit for that or not didn't really make that much difference to him.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

521.995

He did not get credit, no, no.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

588.914

Well, Banant for me was one of the songs that was written for the 1930 musical Girl Crazy, which featured a very young Ginger Rogers. That was a song that Ginger Rogers sang in the show Ballad that she sang. And it was also the show that brought Ethel Merman to everybody's attention. So

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

607.657

I got rhythm as in the same show and it was perhaps the height of the Gershwin's silly shows by 1930 before they went into some of the political shows of the few years after and then Porgy and Bess. But Not For Me is, it's a very romantic ballad and you can take it that way.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

633.095

But if you listen to the lyrics closely, you can hear both Ivor's influences because, as you say, he read a lot and he had a huge library. But also his tricky rhymes about wedding knots and being that that was not for me.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

664.252

Absolutely correct. And I think that one of the things that Ira complained about sometimes was that in a theater – Most people were never going to get that sense of the song. They were going to hear the two words and the two sounds, not and not, and they'd think they were the same thing.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

681.851

And it was only the people who actually studied the sheet music or who sang the song professionally who might pick it up. But he did this on purpose.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

694.112

Because he always wanted to have some fun with the lyrics. I don't think he ever thought of lyric writing, particularly in his early years, as a job so much as it was his way of making his thoughts about love and art known to the world of musical theater and film music and popular songs and Whether people got that or not, that certainly wasn't up to him, but he was very protective of his lyrics.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

730.394

When singers would sing songs not in the way that he wrote them, singing, I've got rhythm instead of I got rhythm, he was somewhat offended by that in a humorous way.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

769.015

Absolutely. Let's hear Lee Wiley.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

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Yes, Lee Wiley, she's generally a forgotten name in the world of popular song these days, but she was one of the first performers to do what we now call songbook albums.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

906.741

It did. Ira jokingly would usually say that what came first was the contract.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

917.064

Yeah. Yes. In the early days, and I would say that it would have been from the 20s into the mid-1930s, it was usually George's melodic ideas that started the ball rolling for a song. And it might just have been a fragment of a melody. And Ira had a very good memory for melodies, even though he couldn't really play the piano.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

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But he did remember them in a certain way that kept them in his mind and could bring them back and try to remind his brother of something that might have been brought up a few months earlier. And it was a very unique relationship. I mean, I know that every songwriter worked in a different way. Songwriting partnerships worked in different ways. But

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

961.229

Typically, over the years, Ira would be at a little card table next to George at the And he would have his big sheets of paper with him, and he would just scribble out ideas.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

977.694

And if you looked at some of the archival material that I used in writing this book and went through Ira's papers as I did, you can see the vast amount of changes and ideas that flowed through his head as his brother was elaborating on these melodies.

Fresh Air

Canonical Lyricist Ira Gershwin Gets His Due

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But eventually, over the years, it became more of a joint partnership that it wasn't always the music that came first, particularly as they got into the so-called political musicals of the 30s of the I Sing and things like that, where the lyrics came more to the forefront of the show rather than the music. Memorable music, though it is, but it's the lyrics, the satirical nature of those lyrics.

Fresh Air

Al Pacino Looks Back On A Legendary Career

173.451

The Corleone family wants to buy you out. The Corleone family wants to buy me out. No, I buy you out. You don't buy me out. Your casino loses money. Maybe we can do better. You think I'm skimming off the top, Mike? You're unlucky.

Fresh Air

Best Of: Folk Musician Jerron Paxton / Lyricist Ira Gershwin's Legacy

1843.564

The classic songs, Lady Be Good, Embraceable You, It's Wonderful, Love Is Here to Stay, Let's Call the Whole Thing Off, Fascinating Rhythm, I Got Rhythm, I've Got a Crush on You, My Ship, The Man That Got Away, Long Ago and Far Away, I Could Go On. They all have lyrics by Ira Gershwin.

Fresh Air

Best Of: Folk Musician Jerron Paxton / Lyricist Ira Gershwin's Legacy

1860.839

Most of his best-known songs were written with his younger brother, the pianist and composer George Gershwin, but Ira also wrote with Harold Arlen, Jerome Kern, and Kurt Weill. Thank you for having me. Let's start with Ella Fitzgerald singing Lady Be Good from her 1959 album Ella Fitzgerald Sings the George and Ira Gershwin Songbook. It's the title song from an early Gershwin musical.

Fresh Air

Best Of: Folk Musician Jerron Paxton / Lyricist Ira Gershwin's Legacy

1986.676

Michael Owen, welcome to Fresh Air. I love the Gershwin's music, so it's a pleasure to be able to talk with you about it. I opened with Lady Be Good because I think it ties together the early part of Ira Gershwin's career with the part in the 1950s when he wasn't really writing much. And his career, his songs, like, needed a boost.

Fresh Air

Best Of: Folk Musician Jerron Paxton / Lyricist Ira Gershwin's Legacy

2009.444

And Ella Fitzgerald's Gershwin Songbook really helped give him that boost. So can you talk a little bit about the importance of both of those ends, you know, the Lady Be Good musical and the Ella Fitzgerald Gershwin songbook?

Fresh Air

Best Of: Folk Musician Jerron Paxton / Lyricist Ira Gershwin's Legacy

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Thank you, first off, for having me on. 1924 was absolutely a big year for Ira. Ira and George had brought them together for the first time as a songwriting team to write a Broadway show. And because Lady Be Good was such a success, it fostered the rest of their career together. But by the time the late 1950s came around when Ella Fitzgerald recorded the songbook, Ira's career had come to an end.

Fresh Air

Best Of: Folk Musician Jerron Paxton / Lyricist Ira Gershwin's Legacy

2050.349

He might not have known that at the time, but it did. We know that now. And the songbook, one of a series of songbooks that Ella Fitzgerald did of other songwriters of the period, brought a new light, a new focus on the songs that the brothers wrote. And so it was a commercial success. It was an artistic success.

Fresh Air

Best Of: Folk Musician Jerron Paxton / Lyricist Ira Gershwin's Legacy

2069.898

And it brought on a wealth of new recordings of those songs and others in the catalog and helped Ira financially quite well.

Fresh Air

Best Of: Folk Musician Jerron Paxton / Lyricist Ira Gershwin's Legacy

2081.73

George and Ira had very different interests and personalities. George was more extroverted. Ira was more shy or wanted to stay more in the background. And George was very musical. Ira was immersed in words. He read a lot. He kept a record of what happened. He read, he started writing light verse that was published in the college magazine or newspaper and other places.

Fresh Air

Best Of: Folk Musician Jerron Paxton / Lyricist Ira Gershwin's Legacy

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Were they close as children being so different from each other?

Fresh Air

Best Of: Folk Musician Jerron Paxton / Lyricist Ira Gershwin's Legacy

2115.038

They were only two years apart and they were the first and second children of Morris and Rose Gershwin. So they grew up together, even though. Their interests were very separate. George was somebody who went out and got into fights and came home with a black eye. Iroh was back in his room reading newspaper articles and magazines and books.

Fresh Air

Best Of: Folk Musician Jerron Paxton / Lyricist Ira Gershwin's Legacy

2139.893

So his life became more one of observation rather than activity, whereas George's life would have been a 180-degree difference from that.

Fresh Air

Best Of: Folk Musician Jerron Paxton / Lyricist Ira Gershwin's Legacy

2151.653

When Ira was young, either in high school or college, he became friends with Yip Harburg, the lyricist probably most famous for writing the lyrics for The Wizard of Oz. And he also wrote the very famous lyric, Brother, Can You Spare a Dime? And not only were they friends and they often like talked about not only poetry and light verse, but also lyrics together.

Fresh Air

Best Of: Folk Musician Jerron Paxton / Lyricist Ira Gershwin's Legacy

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Ira actually contributed a couple of lines to Over the Rainbow from The Wizard of Oz. What was Ira's contribution?

Fresh Air

Best Of: Folk Musician Jerron Paxton / Lyricist Ira Gershwin's Legacy

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Well, all three of the writers who were friends, Harold Arlen, the composer, and Yip Harburg and Ira, who had been classmates and writing partners together before, when Arlen and Harburg had been hired to write the score at MGM for Wizard of Oz, they played the tune, Arlen's tune, that became Over the Rainbow for Ira because he was a sounding board.

Fresh Air

Best Of: Folk Musician Jerron Paxton / Lyricist Ira Gershwin's Legacy

2212.822

I must say that that was the way it was with all these writers of that period. They were all generally friendly to each other. I don't think there was a lot of competition. I mean, there was competition, obviously, but there wasn't angry competition.

Fresh Air

Best Of: Folk Musician Jerron Paxton / Lyricist Ira Gershwin's Legacy

2224.906

So when the song was finished, or at least when Harburg and Arlen thought the song was finished, they came over to Ira's house and Arlen sat down at the piano and played the tune and Harburg sang the song. And Ira liked it a lot, but he felt like that there was something missing at the end, a coda

Fresh Air

Best Of: Folk Musician Jerron Paxton / Lyricist Ira Gershwin's Legacy

2244.42

And so Ira was the one who came up with the line about bluebirds flying at the end, which is one of the more famous lines from the song.

Fresh Air

Best Of: Folk Musician Jerron Paxton / Lyricist Ira Gershwin's Legacy

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If happy little bluebirds fly beyond the rainbow, why oh why can't I?

Fresh Air

Best Of: Folk Musician Jerron Paxton / Lyricist Ira Gershwin's Legacy

2258.548

Right. And I think that sums up the song in many ways. It sums up the film. It sums up Dorothy's journey. But I think he just was helping out his friends, and whether he got credit for that or not didn't really make that much difference to him.

Fresh Air

Best Of: Folk Musician Jerron Paxton / Lyricist Ira Gershwin's Legacy

2276.293

And he did not get credit as a... He did not get credit, no, no. Why don't we just hear that coda, just hear the end of the song.

Fresh Air

Best Of: Folk Musician Jerron Paxton / Lyricist Ira Gershwin's Legacy

2307.079

That was the end of Somewhere Over the Rainbow from The Wizard of Oz, and we heard those last couple of lines, which were actually written by Ira Gershwin. Ira read so many books and wrote light verse, and some of the lyrics have really fun, funny literary references in them. An example for that is But Not For Me, which is a beautiful song.

Fresh Air

Best Of: Folk Musician Jerron Paxton / Lyricist Ira Gershwin's Legacy

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And it has a line, I found more skies of gray than any Russian play can guarantee. One of his famous lines. Can you talk a little bit about that song and how it originated?

Fresh Air

Best Of: Folk Musician Jerron Paxton / Lyricist Ira Gershwin's Legacy

2344.63

Well, Banant for me was one of the songs that was written for the 1930 musical Girl Crazy, which featured a very young Ginger Rogers. That was a song that Ginger Rogers sang in the show Ballad that she sang. And it was also the show that brought Ethel Merman to everybody's attention. So I got rhythm as in the same show.

Fresh Air

Best Of: Folk Musician Jerron Paxton / Lyricist Ira Gershwin's Legacy

2366.035

And it was perhaps the height of the Gershwin's silly shows by 1930 before they went into some of the political shows of the few years after and then Porgy and Bess. But not for me is it's a very romantic ballad and you can take it that way. But if you listen to the lyrics closely, you can hear both Ivor's influences because, as you say, he read a lot and he had a huge library.

Fresh Air

Best Of: Folk Musician Jerron Paxton / Lyricist Ira Gershwin's Legacy

2400.002

But also his tricky rhymes about wedding knots and being that that was not for me.

Fresh Air

Best Of: Folk Musician Jerron Paxton / Lyricist Ira Gershwin's Legacy

2408.243

Part of the lyric, and it's the end of the lyric, goes, when every happy plot ends with a marriage knot, and there's no knot for me. So it's a clever play on words.

Fresh Air

Best Of: Folk Musician Jerron Paxton / Lyricist Ira Gershwin's Legacy

2419.973

Absolutely correct. And I think that one of the things that Ira complained about sometimes was that in a theater, Most people were never going to get that sense of the song. They were going to hear the two words and the two sounds, not and not, and they'd think they were the same thing.

Fresh Air

Best Of: Folk Musician Jerron Paxton / Lyricist Ira Gershwin's Legacy

2437.57

And it was only the people who actually studied the sheet music or who sang the song professionally who might pick it up. But he did this on purpose, right?

Fresh Air

Best Of: Folk Musician Jerron Paxton / Lyricist Ira Gershwin's Legacy

2449.828

Because he always wanted to have some fun with the lyrics. I don't think he ever thought of lyric writing, particularly in his early years, as a job so much as it was his way of making his thoughts about love and art known to the world of musical theater and film music and popular songs and Whether people got that or not, that certainly wasn't up to him. But he was very protective of his lyrics.

Fresh Air

Best Of: Folk Musician Jerron Paxton / Lyricist Ira Gershwin's Legacy

2484.494

And when singers would sing songs not in the way that he wrote them, singing I've got rhythm instead of I got rhythm, he was somewhat offended by that in a humorous way.

Fresh Air

Best Of: Folk Musician Jerron Paxton / Lyricist Ira Gershwin's Legacy

2500.683

It was the same with S'Wonderful. Oh, absolutely. If somebody sang It's Wonderful, you'd get pretty upset. And I was listening to the Lee Wiley. She did a whole set of Gershwin songs. And she sings It's Wonderful. It's supposed to be S'Wonderful. But she's such a great singer. Anyhow, let's not get too distracted and let's hear But Not For Me. Should we hear Lee Wiley singing it?

Fresh Air

Best Of: Folk Musician Jerron Paxton / Lyricist Ira Gershwin's Legacy

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And this is on her recording from the 1930s, right?

Fresh Air

Best Of: Folk Musician Jerron Paxton / Lyricist Ira Gershwin's Legacy

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Yes, Lee Wiley, she's generally a forgotten name in the world of popular song these days, but she was one of the first performers to do what we now call songbook albums.

Fresh Air

Best Of: Folk Musician Jerron Paxton / Lyricist Ira Gershwin's Legacy

2542.778

So let's hear Lee Wiley's recording from the 1930s of George and Ira Gershwin's But Not For Me.

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That was Lee Wiley, recorded in the 1930s, singing the Gershwin song, But Not For Me. My guest, Michael Owen, is the author of a new book called Ira Gershwin, A Life in Words. What was their approach to writing together? Everybody wants to know what came first, the words or the music. And their approach to writing together changed over the years.

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It did. Ira jokingly would usually say that what came first was the contract.

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Sammy Cahn used to say that, too. Yes, I think they all said that. I think they all said that.

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Yes, in the early days, and I would say that it would have been from the 20s into the mid-1930s, it was usually George's melodic ideas that started the ball rolling for a song. And it might just have been a fragment of a melody. And Ira had a very good memory for melodies, even though he couldn't really play the piano.

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But he did remember them in a certain way that kept them in his mind and could bring them back and try to remind his brother of something that might have been brought up a few months earlier. And it was a very unique relationship. I mean, I know that Every songwriter worked in a different way. Songwriting partnerships worked in different ways.

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But typically over the years, Ira would be at a little card table next to George at the piano. And he would have his big sheets of paper with him, and he would just gribble out ideas.

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And if you looked at some of the archival material that I used in writing this book and went through Ira's papers as I did, you can see the vast amount of changes and ideas that flowed through his head as his brother was elaborating on these melodies.

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But eventually, over the years, it became more of a joint partnership that it wasn't always the music that came first, particularly as they got into the so-called political musicals of the 30s of the I Sing and things like that, where the lyrics came more to the forefront of the show rather than the music. Memorable music, though it is, but it's the lyrics, the satirical nature of those lyrics.

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that brought Ira to a new level where people were starting to compare him to one of his idols, Gilbert, W.S. Gilbert, with Gilbert and Sullivan fame.

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Well, Ira died in 1983. He had been... housebound for a number of years. His last real work was in the early 1960s. After the end of the 1960s, which was basically the last time he traveled, he increasingly stayed at his house. He had had a stroke and various other physical ailments over the years, which were leaving him more incapacitated.

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But I will say that his final years actually were quite good ones because, among other things, was the arrival of a young man by the name of Michael Feinstein, who I know you've had on your show, who was hired initially to sort of entertain Ira and wound up working on Ira's archive. I did some similar work to what Michael did in terms of the archive, but certainly not entertaining Ira.

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I wasn't around then. There was a piano that was brought up into Ira's bedroom, and Michael spent a lot of time at the house singing for Ira, some of the more obscure corners of Ira's catalog. which entertained a man who had become somewhat isolated. But it was a good life. It was a successful life.

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And it's certainly one that is well remembered by those of us who love great songs, great lyrics, and the great American songbook.

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Michael Owen, thank you so much for talking with us.