Michelle Hackman
Appearances
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
And so the government says, okay, this is an extraordinary circumstance. We're going to, for humanitarian reasons, let you into the country temporarily on this thing called parole.
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
The idea is it's supposed to be temporary, but it does, I want to emphasize, really give the government very broad authority to let people in as long as they can say that there's some kind of either humanitarian or public benefit reason to let someone in.
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
So when Russia invaded Ukraine, there was a really interesting incident that happened where people were obviously fleeing Ukraine. They were spreading all over Europe. But a certain number, about 20,000 people, started coming to Mexico and hoping to cross the border to come to America.
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
And we had this incident where in one month, 20,000 Ukrainians all flew to the Mexican city Tijuana and came up to this one border crossing across from San Diego and were all asking for a sign.
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
And so the Biden administration was processing those people, letting them into the country. But it said we can't just let everyone in the world think if you come to Mexico and then walk up to our border, we're just going to let you in.
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
And the deal was if you apply in advance, so, you know, the government has a chance to vet you and you find an American to sort of financially sponsor you, take you in, be your guarantor in some way, then the government would give you travel permission to fly to the U.S. and live here for a grant of two years.
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
And I think the way that it was portrayed was, we're going to go after people who knowingly came here illegally, knowingly broke our laws. And so I think a lot of people were led to believe that that is what the crackdown was going to look like. And now it looks really different.
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
As a border gamut, it worked. I mean, literally the day that they announced this program, no one flew to Mexico from there.
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
Biden was having a crisis at the border. I mean, there were hundreds of thousands of people coming at the height of it, about 250,000 people crossed illegally in one month. And he had this example of this program sort of fixing a border problem with the Ukrainians.
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
And so people in his administration said, wait a second, you know, there are certain countries in Latin America where the situation is basically, you know, it's different, but it's just as bad as Ukraine. You know, Haiti, the government, basically the president was assassinated. You know, in Cuba and Venezuela, there was sort of widespread issues with starvation.
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
And so Biden said, these people are not going to stop coming basically no matter what we do. And so he made this bet where he said... If we let these people in legally, you know, we make them find a sponsor, we have them pay for their own plane tickets, we give them a work permit, they're probably gonna choose that overcoming illegally.
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
Yeah, so the immigrants, once they got here, you know, were eligible to apply for anything else. So many applied for asylum. A smaller number, you know, probably found other paths.
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
The reason this program was so controversial is because once this humanitarian parole expires, the person is in the country illegally, and they're basically in the same position as someone else who had crossed illegally.
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
Exactly. Exactly. The Republicans in particular have argued that this program is illegal because Congress sets limits on immigration. You know, we have visa categories. If you don't fit into one, people strongly feel, well, then you have no right to be in the country. You shouldn't be here.
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
And a president shouldn't have the authority to just decide to let a large group of people in who Congress hasn't authorized.
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
His mass deportation isn't going so well so far, and that's a huge source of frustration for Trump, for people in his administration. Deportations actually aren't that much higher than they were under Biden.
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
And that has the effect of making them deportable. And it's happening sort of on a rolling basis. These people are eligible for fast-tracked deportation because they came into the country relatively recently. So that means if you get arrested by ICE, you don't even have the right to go in front of a judge and plead your case. You can just be deported.
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
The other thing that Trump has done is that he's paused the processing of any other application that one of these people has put in. So let's say you came into the country and then you asked for asylum. Trump has said your asylum claim actually can't be decided because we've put them all on pause.
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
We're still in the beginning stages. I think that both are going to happen. The administration has created an app that it calls CBP Home, where it's asking people to report their plans to self-deport.
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
There is a lawsuit filed to try to stop Trump from ending this program. And in some cases, the court has said, even though a program is illegal, some of the people who rely on it, it's unfair to take that away from them. And so it's possible that a court could rule that way, but we just don't know yet.
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
You know, we are here having this debate about whether this program is legal, whether the Biden administration had the authority to use it. But to me, the really salient thing is these are people who went really far out of their way to do things the right way and to follow all the rules. They didn't break any laws by coming into the country.
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
And so it's completely sort of changing the set of laws on them sort of with no notice.
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
They're broadening the aperture of who we would think of as deportable. So it's a whole new scale that we're seeing.
The Journal.
How Frog Embryos Landed a Scientist in ICE Detention
I mean, she could win her asylum case, which would mean essentially she's free unless the government appeals. She could lose her asylum case. In which case, you know, it's hard to say what the range of possibilities is. Theoretically, you should be able to appeal that loss all the way up through the system and then through the federal courts.
The Journal.
How Frog Embryos Landed a Scientist in ICE Detention
But if she's in detention, the government could try to deport her in the meantime.
The Journal.
How Frog Embryos Landed a Scientist in ICE Detention
Under the law, what she did should result in a $500 fine.
The Journal.
How Frog Embryos Landed a Scientist in ICE Detention
I became obsessed with this case because in a lot of instances that I had been learning about, there seemed to be violations that were relatively minor, which was the case here, too, but were sort of understandable. And you have this woman. She's a scientist. She's at the top of her field. And what she did was pretty minor. She made a mistake that you and I could make.
The Journal.
How Frog Embryos Landed a Scientist in ICE Detention
But I've spoken to several lawyers about this case, and they've all made the same point, which is that this really shouldn't rise to the level of you've committed some kind of crime.
The Journal.
How Frog Embryos Landed a Scientist in ICE Detention
Ksenia, that was the point where she said, oh my gosh, please don't do that. You know, it's not safe for me in Russia. Why isn't Russia safe for Ksenia? When Russia invaded Ukraine, Ksenia got involved in politics. She started protesting, and she got arrested by the Russian authorities. And when she got out of jail, she realized that her, you know, she wasn't safe in Russia.
The Journal.
How Frog Embryos Landed a Scientist in ICE Detention
And when she said that, that triggered an asylum claim.
The Journal.
How Frog Embryos Landed a Scientist in ICE Detention
That's basically right. Yeah, an asylum claim can be as simple as, you can't send me home, I will be targeted. You have to prove it, of course, but that's how it starts.
The Journal.
How Frog Embryos Landed a Scientist in ICE Detention
There are a lot of cases of people being stopped coming into the country at airports and at land borders. And usually there is something. Maybe they've done wrong. Maybe they filled out their paperwork wrong or they violated their terms of their visa in some way, even if it's unintentional.
The Journal.
How Frog Embryos Landed a Scientist in ICE Detention
Stuff that, you know, it's not like they're being targeted for absolutely no reason, but the consequences seem much huger. In the past, you know, immigration officers at the border are given the authority to say, OK, I'm going to let you in today, but you need to come back next week and fix your paperwork.
The Journal.
How Frog Embryos Landed a Scientist in ICE Detention
Or, you know, even in a worst case, I'm going to actually revoke your visa and I'm going to release you today, but you're going to have to come to a court date in a few weeks. And now it's like a maximum, you know, once there's even a tiny problem, you are in detention or you're being deported as fast as possible.
The Journal.
How Frog Embryos Landed a Scientist in ICE Detention
This case has sent shockwaves through the scientific community. People are freaked out by it. People are afraid to leave the country. Scientists are afraid to come to the country. People are terrified. I mean, people feel like anything they do that's wrong, even inadvertently wrong, could be held against them. They could be thrown out of the country.
The Journal.
How Frog Embryos Landed a Scientist in ICE Detention
There have been a lot of instances of people's phones being searched and contents of their phones being held against them, even things they've deleted off their phones. You know, there was a case of someone recently who was literally detained at his citizenship interview. So I think all of these cases, and this is totally deliberate by the administration, they're using these sort of
The Journal.
How Frog Embryos Landed a Scientist in ICE Detention
aggressive tactics that we haven't seen so much in the past to paint a picture that if you do anything wrong or if you're here illegally, even if you are here legally and we sort of don't like some of your speech or we don't like something you've done, you could be deported.
The Journal.
How Frog Embryos Landed a Scientist in ICE Detention
I mean, I think part of this is that they actually want people to leave and they're hoping that these tactics will get people to leave.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
People really respond to patterns. You know, if it had been one case like this, I think the public would sort of be able to brush it off, but that these things pile up tends to affect public opinion more.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
It's such a good question, Molly. And I think maybe part of the problem is that everyone in this administration has a slightly different endgame.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
You know, for someone like Stephen Miller, he ultimately wants to really, really significantly reduce immigration so that we're only getting small numbers of people and they're sort of the best of the best from wealthy countries so that they won't ever end up on our welfare. And sort of that's why things are seeming to head in that direction.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
But for other people, you know, for example, Kristi Noem, she's the Homeland Security Secretary. When she was in Congress and when she was governor of South Dakota, she took a much more sort of rosy look at immigrants because they were really critical to running industries like agriculture in her state. And so I think she's thinking we've got to get this illegal activity totally under control.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
And at some point, that's going to lead us to a conversation where we can actually change the immigration laws.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
That's a good question. I think there are probably two reasons. One is that a lot of Republicans don't see these migrants who are working in similar jobs as them as their friends. They see them as competitors. You know, these people are taking a job that then I can't have. And so helping them out feels sort of directly antithetical to their own interests.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
I would say the other thing is a lot of Republicans I've spoken to, and this is kind of unscientific, but just from years of interviewing people, is that they're really driven by this sense of fairness. And they can't get over to the fact that many, not all, but many of these people broke the law when they entered the country. And so why should they just be forgiven for that?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
Yeah, so Trump on the campaign really emphasized not just that he was going to do deportations, but he talked about numbers. He was going to do the largest mass deportation in American history when he would promise he was going to get rid of 15 million, 20 million people And, you know, it's hard to say like what we would expect the beginnings of a mass deportation to even look like.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
But I seriously doubt that this is it. I mean, in the first six weeks or so of the Trump administration, deportations are actually down from the last year of the Biden administration. That's not a statistic that they want anyone to know.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
You're right. He has really slowed down things at the border. They had already really dramatically slowed in the final year of the Biden administration. I would say the really big thing they did was that they ended a Biden program that didn't really have a catchy name. People called it CBP1 after the app that people used.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
So Biden actually already said, if you cross the border illegally, you're not going to qualify for asylum. We're just going to shut you out. Trump said, even if you come to a port of entry, even if you come like legally and ask for asylum, we're still not going to consider you. And so it's really shut down basically any avenue people have.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
And that's sort of acted as more of a deterrent, at least for now. And so a long-term question is, are people going to be deterred forever from coming to the border? Or is this deterrence-only strategy is going to at some point fail?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
I think that's somewhat by design. They want to really make a big splash. And so they've started sort of taking on these high profile cases. And one of them is the students who, you know, they claim have participated in pro-Palestine protests. They claim that these people are supporters of Hamas in different ways.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
And this is a battle that they really think they can win because they think most Americans are sick of the college protests, that most Americans are more supportive of Israel than they are of Hamas. And so that they're not going to be so upset if they go after an international student who, for example, wrote an op-ed in her school newspaper expressing support for the Palestinian people.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
You know, I have to say I'm not entirely sure. I suspect that it is about a lack of resources, that it's easier to go after someone if you know where they live and they have a visa and you can go through that process. You know, Trump talked a lot about going after criminals, but notoriously people who are convicted criminals are better at dodging the police, right? than everyone else.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
And so it's hard to go after those people. We've seen an uptick in people, you know, who are here illegally, but who sort of have no criminal record whatsoever, who have lives in the U.S., who have U.S. citizen spouses and children. Those are the types of people that we're seeing being targeted more. But it's a good question. You know, why are they not being deported in bigger numbers?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
I think we just don't have enough bodies, like, to do the arresting.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
Yeah, he's kind of the only one in the administration who came in from the get-go saying, I'm not sure how mass this deportation is going to be. I need to see what resources we have. And now that's sort of pivoting well because Congress is negotiating this huge spending package. And so Tom Homan is trying to put pressure on them to put in as much money as possible for ICE.