Molly Webster
Appearances
Radiolab
The Ecstasy of an Open Brain
And if you can tap into that mechanism, There are some very real world practical things that you might be able to do, which we'll get into right after this break.
Radiolab
The Ecstasy of an Open Brain
I'm Molly Webster. This is Radiolab. And that was Ghul Dolan, a neuroscientist and former teen. But unlike maybe the rest of us former teens, Ghul's very familiar teenage struggle would end up at the center of her scientific work and lead to new ways of seeing the moments in our lives when our most basic habits and behaviors emerge. And then get locked in.
Radiolab
The Ecstasy of an Open Brain
I'm Molly Webster. This is Radiolab. We are back in the saddle with neuroscientist Gul Dolin. She's been telling us about how psychedelics can reopen critical periods in the brain. And where it goes from here, in a way, just gets more practical because I think we've all been hearing about studies in which psychedelics are curing various afflictions.
Radiolab
The Ecstasy of an Open Brain
So like MDMA is helping with PTSD or psilocybin, a.k.a. magic mushrooms, can help with depression. And Gould says that she thinks her study, the one that she did with mice, that it might be able to provide a clue about how those treatments are doing what they do.
Radiolab
The Ecstasy of an Open Brain
That's very interesting that in a way, it's not the psychedelic. I mean, the presence of the psychedelic is allowing something else in the brain, like an experience or whatever, to have an action.
Radiolab
The Ecstasy of an Open Brain
And it all starts with something called critical periods. Okay. So for like us, you know, yokels over here, like what is a critical learning period?
Radiolab
The Ecstasy of an Open Brain
Gould says that when you use a psychedelic in the right context, it actually opens up the brain at a cellular level so that the neurons can reorganize themselves. And in that reorganization, they can create new patterns and new pathways that allow for learning and maybe even healing. So really what these drugs do is create a window of opportunity for How long was that period seemingly open for?
Radiolab
The Ecstasy of an Open Brain
Because everyone had to go home for dinner. And you're like, we can't test this anymore. I mean, it's just sort of interesting because you think... even four days four days two weeks more than a month like are you just in those moments like vulnerable to everything are you like it just feels like the the next couple of weeks like solidly matter
Radiolab
The Ecstasy of an Open Brain
It's funny. Yeah, I think about, I mean, recreational psychedelics use. People are doing it all the time. At least in my world. And like now I just like want to be like, OK, for for the next two weeks, if you could, you know, be careful or maybe go if you go take a yoga class, if you really want to learn that. Yeah. That technique or something. I don't know.
Radiolab
The Ecstasy of an Open Brain
It's just the vulnerability part of it feels and vulnerability is it has such a negative connotation. But I do think it goes both ways of like it just you're vulnerable, you're malleable, you're open. That feels like a double edged sword.
Radiolab
The Ecstasy of an Open Brain
And just real quick, why is motor neuron like the top of the mountain for critical periods?
Radiolab
The Ecstasy of an Open Brain
So the main thing that Gould's team is focused on right now is designing a clinical trial for stroke patients. What they know is that generally after a stroke, the critical learning window is open for about two to three months.
Radiolab
The Ecstasy of an Open Brain
Say your trial works, that you see that if you have a stroke and I give you MDMA and for two weeks we do stuff and you can gain motor neuron skills back, that's great. But imagine that you don't gain all your skills back. So then you're like, okay, well, I'm gonna do MDMA again, keep the window open for two weeks so I get a month out of this, right? Two doses, I get a month where I'm open.
Radiolab
The Ecstasy of an Open Brain
I'm wondering is if you hit a point where the MDMA, your brain's like used to it.
Radiolab
The Ecstasy of an Open Brain
Yeah, it's like makes me think that, you know, depending on how your stroke stuff comes out, that I want everyone to save at least one MDMA trip for themselves, you know, for when they're older, right?
Radiolab
The Ecstasy of an Open Brain
I sort of want to run out of here and I'm not sure if I want to do MDMA with a therapist or if I just want to do MDMA and cuddle with people for two weeks, you know, or if I just don't want to do MDMA at all. Like maybe go hide in a cave for a while.
Radiolab
The Ecstasy of an Open Brain
This episode was reported by me, Molly Webster. It was produced by the amazing Sindhu Nana Sambindan. There was production help from me and Timmy Broderick. And fact checking was by Emily Krieger. I want to give a huge thank you shout out to Gul Dolan, who is now at the University of California, Berkeley, and talked to me multiple, multiple times.
Radiolab
The Ecstasy of an Open Brain
Special thanks also go to Charles Phillip and David Herman. And a special shout out to Roman Nardu, who is in the lab of Gul Dolan, is the postdoc we referenced earlier in the piece, the one who said, you know, let's study peer pressure. Finally, if you want that spongy brain juice, you should check out our newsletter. It's got content, extra content, insider content, fun pictures, staff recs.
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The Ecstasy of an Open Brain
You can go to radiolab.org slash newsletter and sign up or check out the link on the show notes. That's the show, folks. I'm Molly Webster. This is Radiolab. Catch you later.
Radiolab
The Ecstasy of an Open Brain
Neuroscience often makes me feel like I just started falling behind at like three months old because you're just like, oh, that window closed and that window closed and that window closed. I'm like, I'd like to think I'm 40 and the world is still my oyster, but perhaps not.
Radiolab
The Ecstasy of an Open Brain
Wow, this is like creating such a feeling of like urgency in me.
Radiolab
The Ecstasy of an Open Brain
So critical periods are great for learning and learning fast. They make us super spongy and absorbent to the world around us. But the fact that they close makes it hard to relearn something we've lost or to unlearn something that's getting in our way. But Gould, in her first lab at Johns Hopkins University, actually uncovered a whole new way of thinking about that problem.
Radiolab
The Ecstasy of an Open Brain
So Ghoul and her team, they get a bunch of mice at all different ages, and they observe them very, very closely. And she basically confirms sort of what we see anecdotally in humans, that teen mice pay attention to their friends more. They learn from their friends more.
Radiolab
The Ecstasy of an Open Brain
But then they opened the tiny mouse brains, and what they saw is that mice, just like humans, have oxytocin, this sort of feel-good chemical that's released when we're around friends or loved ones. And they saw that the neurons in the teen mouse brains were more susceptible and sensitive to oxytocin. And so it seemed like, oh... This is a biological, neurological, critical period.
Radiolab
The Ecstasy of an Open Brain
Like it's just not like how long do I have to be deprived? Molly's over here looking at her calendar like, what do I want to fix?
Radiolab
The Ecstasy of an Open Brain
So they go back to the lab, back to the mice, who this time are going to go on a little trip.
Radiolab
The Ecstasy of an Open Brain
Would you like peek in with like a secret telescope to see what their behavior was like in those two days?
Radiolab
The Ecstasy of an Open Brain
I mean, I'm not sure. Maybe the mouse got acid-washed jeans or something.
Radiolab
The Ecstasy of an Open Brain
And what Gould and her team saw is that the adult brains on MDMA, they actually went back to that sensitive teenage-like brain state.
Radiolab
The Ecstasy of an Open Brain
Like the fact that it's a drug that induces social behavior is not why you're seeing social results. It's about the it's about the class of drugs of psychedelics.
Radiolab
The Ecstasy of an Open Brain
Just to put that in context, it's like a dude tripping in a corner is in a way having the same experience as like a wide-eyed baby soaking up their world or a teenager who cares so much about what everyone else thinks of them. And it's not just that they're experiencing it in the same way. It's that there's an underlying deep biological mechanism that's being shared in all of those situations.