Randy Shoup

Uh, that's an interesting, that's a great question. He consulted on the side every so often for Xilinx and what's the other one? Is it Altera? That might not be right.

Uh, that's an interesting, that's a great question. He consulted on the side every so often for Xilinx and what's the other one? Is it Altera? That might not be right.

Yeah, so I think he was pleased, but it wasn't the crowning achievement of his life by a long shot, because basically he never did FPGAs for Sirius after he completed his PhD. We will fill in the blanks here, but he ended up at Xerox PARC and started most of modern computer graphics, in particular animation. So there's a direct line from...

Yeah, so I think he was pleased, but it wasn't the crowning achievement of his life by a long shot, because basically he never did FPGAs for Sirius after he completed his PhD. We will fill in the blanks here, but he ended up at Xerox PARC and started most of modern computer graphics, in particular animation. So there's a direct line from...

the work that he did at Park, to Pixar and Toy Story, and even there's a connection to Jim Clark, interestingly, and SGI. So what he is known for is computer graphics and being, again, follow the graph of the contributions back, and he's a very early

the work that he did at Park, to Pixar and Toy Story, and even there's a connection to Jim Clark, interestingly, and SGI. So what he is known for is computer graphics and being, again, follow the graph of the contributions back, and he's a very early

Yeah, they formed the lab. So he came out to Berkeley Computer Corporation in 1970. It collapsed exactly perfectly for him because Xerox was right then starting up a lab in Palo Alto called the Palo Alto Research Center or PARC. And the first six or eight researchers that Bob Taylor seeded the lab with were people from Berkeley Computer Corporation.

Yeah, they formed the lab. So he came out to Berkeley Computer Corporation in 1970. It collapsed exactly perfectly for him because Xerox was right then starting up a lab in Palo Alto called the Palo Alto Research Center or PARC. And the first six or eight researchers that Bob Taylor seeded the lab with were people from Berkeley Computer Corporation.

So those include Chuck Thacker, Butler Lampson, my dad. Simone was at Berkeley Computer Corporation, but went elsewhere and then came back to Park to do Bravo, which later became Microsoft Word. And then Alan Kay was immediately after those six.

So those include Chuck Thacker, Butler Lampson, my dad. Simone was at Berkeley Computer Corporation, but went elsewhere and then came back to Park to do Bravo, which later became Microsoft Word. And then Alan Kay was immediately after those six.

So, I mean, obviously, I've thought about this for, you know, 50 years, but Brian, you've said it. That's that's you said it perfectly. That's exactly right. In exactly the same way, to your point that Xerox, the center, you know, big Rochester, New York based copier company. was like, who are all these crazy long-haired California nutcases? And basically didn't commercialize much of anything.

So, I mean, obviously, I've thought about this for, you know, 50 years, but Brian, you've said it. That's that's you said it perfectly. That's exactly right. In exactly the same way, to your point that Xerox, the center, you know, big Rochester, New York based copier company. was like, who are all these crazy long-haired California nutcases? And basically didn't commercialize much of anything.

We'll talk about it. They did pay back the lab with a laser printer, but they didn't commercialize any of the other things, which included graphical user interface, object-oriented programming in the form of Smalltalk, the first word processor, which is Simone's Bravo, Ethernet with Bob Metcalf,

We'll talk about it. They did pay back the lab with a laser printer, but they didn't commercialize any of the other things, which included graphical user interface, object-oriented programming in the form of Smalltalk, the first word processor, which is Simone's Bravo, Ethernet with Bob Metcalf,

like ethernet is like oh there's a fourth thing oh right ethernet yeah i mean to your point ethernet's not even the first thing that comes out of my mouth no it's even the first thing that comes to mind it's just insane um oh and also email um and uh touch screens but other than that

like ethernet is like oh there's a fourth thing oh right ethernet yeah i mean to your point ethernet's not even the first thing that comes out of my mouth no it's even the first thing that comes to mind it's just insane um oh and also email um and uh touch screens but other than that

So I'll tell you the story. So people should, if they're all interested in this conversation, you should go by and read Dealers of Lightning, which is a 1999 book from Michael Hiltzik about Xerox PARC. There's an earlier one called Fumbling the Future, which is about the business thing that was written in the 80s. That's hard to get. But Dealership Lightning is amazing.

So I'll tell you the story. So people should, if they're all interested in this conversation, you should go by and read Dealers of Lightning, which is a 1999 book from Michael Hiltzik about Xerox PARC. There's an earlier one called Fumbling the Future, which is about the business thing that was written in the 80s. That's hard to get. But Dealership Lightning is amazing.

There's a chapter all about my dad, which is called The Pariahs. And okay, so Bob Taylor forms this lab, and he came out of ARPA and the whole deal there, and was excellent at assembling really top-notch scientists, researchers, particularly computer people, and bringing them all together and getting them to do amazing things. And so that's why he was running the lab. Cool.

There's a chapter all about my dad, which is called The Pariahs. And okay, so Bob Taylor forms this lab, and he came out of ARPA and the whole deal there, and was excellent at assembling really top-notch scientists, researchers, particularly computer people, and bringing them all together and getting them to do amazing things. And so that's why he was running the lab. Cool.

And so he got all these people together. And his MO is basically tell people to find what's interesting to them, which he told to my dad, and then mold that interest over time so that everybody's all working together. it's kind of in parallel, if that makes any sense or not in parallel, but like pointed in the same direction.

And so he got all these people together. And his MO is basically tell people to find what's interesting to them, which he told to my dad, and then mold that interest over time so that everybody's all working together. it's kind of in parallel, if that makes any sense or not in parallel, but like pointed in the same direction.

Yeah. So hit, so Bob Taylor's, you know, MO again, I only met him maybe once or twice when I was very, very young. Um, but so this is all, you know, hearsay or whatever read say. Um, and, uh, so he, so, you know, he formed the lab with all these like, you know, super top, top notch, uh, freshly minted PhDs from around the country, uh,

Yeah. So hit, so Bob Taylor's, you know, MO again, I only met him maybe once or twice when I was very, very young. Um, but so this is all, you know, hearsay or whatever read say. Um, and, uh, so he, so, you know, he formed the lab with all these like, you know, super top, top notch, uh, freshly minted PhDs from around the country, uh,

and figured that he could mold everyone and point them in the right direction. And he succeeded with the exception of one or two people, which is my dad and another guy, Alvy Ray Smith, who's the founder of Pixar. We'll get there. So when my dad showed up, Taylor says, take a year to figure out what you want to do. And Alvy describes my dad in this wonderful phrasing.

and figured that he could mold everyone and point them in the right direction. And he succeeded with the exception of one or two people, which is my dad and another guy, Alvy Ray Smith, who's the founder of Pixar. We'll get there. So when my dad showed up, Taylor says, take a year to figure out what you want to do. And Alvy describes my dad in this wonderful phrasing.

It's like, I guess I just reread it. It's like, he's kind of a crusty guy. He doesn't play politics. And he's very stubborn. And I was like, got it in one, Alvy. There's a reason why you were dad's best man that is, you know, when he remarried in 1990. They were the best of friends forever. And I'll tell you that whole story in a moment.

It's like, I guess I just reread it. It's like, he's kind of a crusty guy. He doesn't play politics. And he's very stubborn. And I was like, got it in one, Alvy. There's a reason why you were dad's best man that is, you know, when he remarried in 1990. They were the best of friends forever. And I'll tell you that whole story in a moment.

Let me motivate this for people who either haven't lived it or just done the research. Super briefly, Bob Taylor constructed the lab out of these amazing people. He pointed all of them at the office of the future, or something that the chairman or CEO of Xerox said, the architecture of information. Nobody knew what that meant, including that guy. But everybody was excited about it.

Let me motivate this for people who either haven't lived it or just done the research. Super briefly, Bob Taylor constructed the lab out of these amazing people. He pointed all of them at the office of the future, or something that the chairman or CEO of Xerox said, the architecture of information. Nobody knew what that meant, including that guy. But everybody was excited about it.

And so everybody, so all the things that I mentioned, right, graphical user interface, object-oriented programming, Ethernet, laser printer, all those things, you know, direct line to Office of the Future. So you could see how all that research, you know, combined. And it totally did in the Xerox Star, then the Apple Lisa, then finally the Mac.

And so everybody, so all the things that I mentioned, right, graphical user interface, object-oriented programming, Ethernet, laser printer, all those things, you know, direct line to Office of the Future. So you could see how all that research, you know, combined. And it totally did in the Xerox Star, then the Apple Lisa, then finally the Mac.

So we can see the direct thread from everybody else in the lab. My dad, again, because he was told he would have a year to think about it, it only took a month, but he was like, I want to do color graphics, and I want to do video. So I want to be able to use this new cool technology called the frame buffer with these new...

So we can see the direct thread from everybody else in the lab. My dad, again, because he was told he would have a year to think about it, it only took a month, but he was like, I want to do color graphics, and I want to do video. So I want to be able to use this new cool technology called the frame buffer with these new...

Massively new pieces of hardware called semiconductors made by a little tiny company in the valley called Intel And because they made memory then not yeah, it wasn't even CPUs yet And he wanted to construct the world's first The first paint program but like he wanted to construct he wanted to combine a paint program a few people have played with that with a frame buffer a few people have played with that with being able to take in a

Massively new pieces of hardware called semiconductors made by a little tiny company in the valley called Intel And because they made memory then not yeah, it wasn't even CPUs yet And he wanted to construct the world's first The first paint program but like he wanted to construct he wanted to combine a paint program a few people have played with that with a frame buffer a few people have played with that with being able to take in a

at frame rate, 30 frames a second, manipulate it digitally in the frame buffer, and then send it out the other end at frame rate, 30 frames a second. And so that's what he built. So he built a frame... So if you haven't heard of a frame buffer, it's very obvious what it is. You take a frame and you put it in a buffer. And this particular buffer was intended to be exactly the... What is it?

at frame rate, 30 frames a second, manipulate it digitally in the frame buffer, and then send it out the other end at frame rate, 30 frames a second. And so that's what he built. So he built a frame... So if you haven't heard of a frame buffer, it's very obvious what it is. You take a frame and you put it in a buffer. And this particular buffer was intended to be exactly the... What is it?

680 by... No, 640 by 486, which is a standard television, you know, ratio. And so if you multiply that out and you give yourself one byte, eight bits of color, so 20, you know, 256 color depth, essentially, then you multiply that out, it comes out to 300 and something thousand bytes. And so Intel was just shipping two kilobit Shift registers. Shift registers, put a pin in that.

680 by... No, 640 by 486, which is a standard television, you know, ratio. And so if you multiply that out and you give yourself one byte, eight bits of color, so 20, you know, 256 color depth, essentially, then you multiply that out, it comes out to 300 and something thousand bytes. And so Intel was just shipping two kilobit Shift registers. Shift registers, put a pin in that.

Not DRAM, but shift registers. And the frame buffer that Dad built, the system overall is called SuperPaint. The frame buffer that was the core of the system was a bunch of these shift registers all chained together to be one long, massive, virtual shift register of 300 and some odd thousand bytes. And the way that it worked is it was like shifting along, bite by bite, chunk by chunk.

Not DRAM, but shift registers. And the frame buffer that Dad built, the system overall is called SuperPaint. The frame buffer that was the core of the system was a bunch of these shift registers all chained together to be one long, massive, virtual shift register of 300 and some odd thousand bytes. And the way that it worked is it was like shifting along, bite by bite, chunk by chunk.

The video comes in, it gets manipulated, and it comes out raster scanned. So people know how television works, right? The raster scans one direction, then it scans the next direction, one lower, then it scans the next direction, one lower, et cetera, back and forth and back and forth. And that... snaky back and forth that the raster does was represented directly one byte each in memory.

The video comes in, it gets manipulated, and it comes out raster scanned. So people know how television works, right? The raster scans one direction, then it scans the next direction, one lower, then it scans the next direction, one lower, et cetera, back and forth and back and forth. And that... snaky back and forth that the raster does was represented directly one byte each in memory.

And so the system, the paint system, was all manipulating those bits digitally. And so what was amazing, this is 1973, 10 years, 11 years before the Mac, 1973, he gets this working in April. And the way that the system So anybody who's used any patent program has used exactly this metaphor invented. There you go. It works, sort of.

And so the system, the paint system, was all manipulating those bits digitally. And so what was amazing, this is 1973, 10 years, 11 years before the Mac, 1973, he gets this working in April. And the way that the system So anybody who's used any patent program has used exactly this metaphor invented. There you go. It works, sort of.

Anybody who's used a patent program has used something exactly analogous to this, and it's basically the metaphors that He, in collaboration with a few other people in the lab, came up with. So it's one part of it. It was actually one television screen. So one television screen was the canvas where you draw and stuff. But the other was the... the palette.

Anybody who's used a patent program has used something exactly analogous to this, and it's basically the metaphors that He, in collaboration with a few other people in the lab, came up with. So it's one part of it. It was actually one television screen. So one television screen was the canvas where you draw and stuff. But the other was the... the palette.

So you choose your color, you choose your brush size and shape, you choose various effects, various animation effects, and then you go over using a stylus on a massive tablet as opposed to a mouse, but other stuff was done using a mouse at Park. So you use a stylus on a tablet and you go over onto the canvas and you draw things. And that was the thing.

So you choose your color, you choose your brush size and shape, you choose various effects, various animation effects, and then you go over using a stylus on a massive tablet as opposed to a mouse, but other stuff was done using a mouse at Park. So you use a stylus on a tablet and you go over onto the canvas and you draw things. And that was the thing.

So now it's maybe motivating why Alvy was so amazed by it. Alvy had a PhD in computer science. Also, he had been a mathematics professor at NYU, I want to say, had a really bad accident, and then totally rethought his life and got in his, I don't know, VW van or whatever it was. Yeah. drove across the country to visit his pal Dick's shop and try to figure out what's next for his life.

So now it's maybe motivating why Alvy was so amazed by it. Alvy had a PhD in computer science. Also, he had been a mathematics professor at NYU, I want to say, had a really bad accident, and then totally rethought his life and got in his, I don't know, VW van or whatever it was. Yeah. drove across the country to visit his pal Dick's shop and try to figure out what's next for his life.

And, you know, that's the hit like a lightning bolt. You know what I mean? It was sort of like very...

And, you know, that's the hit like a lightning bolt. You know what I mean? It was sort of like very...

fallow ground if that makes any sense you know like he was he was right i mean he had all like again phd computer science the guy's a freaking rock star um and uh so very ready to appreciate and understand all aspects of this from a computer science perspective but also he's a he's an artist and a painter you know so that's why that's why the the clip or you know the quote that you gave

fallow ground if that makes any sense you know like he was he was right i mean he had all like again phd computer science the guy's a freaking rock star um and uh so very ready to appreciate and understand all aspects of this from a computer science perspective but also he's a he's an artist and a painter you know so that's why that's why the the clip or you know the quote that you gave

Yeah, sorry. So yeah, this is April 1973, so obviously 1970s. Look at the... It's grayscale, but it's flaming red hair. And so this is the very first image that was taken by SuperPaint. And he had not yet debugged the... So it's using a Data General 900, something like that? I don't know. Using some mini-computer of the time. And... DG Nova. That's it. DG Nova. Exactly right.

Yeah, sorry. So yeah, this is April 1973, so obviously 1970s. Look at the... It's grayscale, but it's flaming red hair. And so this is the very first image that was taken by SuperPaint. And he had not yet debugged the... So it's using a Data General 900, something like that? I don't know. Using some mini-computer of the time. And... DG Nova. That's it. DG Nova. Exactly right.

And he has not yet... He's gotten the frame buffer, but he hasn't yet debugged or even hooked up the DG system. So he took this picture because he finally had the frame buffer working. He apparently needed to pull apart or put the clip leads back on with his knees so that he could get this image.

And he has not yet... He's gotten the frame buffer, but he hasn't yet debugged or even hooked up the DG system. So he took this picture because he finally had the frame buffer working. He apparently needed to pull apart or put the clip leads back on with his knees so that he could get this image.

So it's on and the image is in memory and before it degrades or whatever, he needs to, because he wants to save it, he now connects up the interface to the DG Nova and debugs it because it's super complicated and figures out how the interface works and writes the code for it. It's like she's writing the code on the fly. I don't know, like some, you know, hacker, stupid hacker movie.

So it's on and the image is in memory and before it degrades or whatever, he needs to, because he wants to save it, he now connects up the interface to the DG Nova and debugs it because it's super complicated and figures out how the interface works and writes the code for it. It's like she's writing the code on the fly. I don't know, like some, you know, hacker, stupid hacker movie.

She's writing the interface code on the fly in, of course, machine code to save this image. And it works, sort of.

She's writing the interface code on the fly in, of course, machine code to save this image. And it works, sort of.

I mean, this is like... Yeah, he definitely had help from a few other people in the lab, but everybody... You know, he's a pretty modest guy, but yeah, he did it all himself. I mean, you know, he had he had a bunch of help on a few things from a guy, Bob Flagle in the lab and Patrick Baudelaire, I want to say. But but yeah, he mostly did it himself. And, you know, he's 30 years old at this point.

I mean, this is like... Yeah, he definitely had help from a few other people in the lab, but everybody... You know, he's a pretty modest guy, but yeah, he did it all himself. I mean, you know, he had he had a bunch of help on a few things from a guy, Bob Flagle in the lab and Patrick Baudelaire, I want to say. But but yeah, he mostly did it himself. And, you know, he's 30 years old at this point.

Not quite 30. And then we'll do all this if you want, but like fast forward, he won an Emmy for this 10 years later, television Emmy, and then he won an Academy Award, a Science and Technology Academy Award. So not an Oscar, because it's not a statuette, but a Science and Technology Academy Award in 1998 for this work.

Not quite 30. And then we'll do all this if you want, but like fast forward, he won an Emmy for this 10 years later, television Emmy, and then he won an Academy Award, a Science and Technology Academy Award. So not an Oscar, because it's not a statuette, but a Science and Technology Academy Award in 1998 for this work.

And so again, we mentioned Alvy Ray Smith as being his collaborator and like his most excited fan or whatever. And they collaborated for a number of years at Park. And then, you know, over time, people left to go found their own things, including Alvy. So Alvy went to New York Institute of Technology and hooked up with Ed Catmull, who had been doing graphics at Utah.

And so again, we mentioned Alvy Ray Smith as being his collaborator and like his most excited fan or whatever. And they collaborated for a number of years at Park. And then, you know, over time, people left to go found their own things, including Alvy. So Alvy went to New York Institute of Technology and hooked up with Ed Catmull, who had been doing graphics at Utah.

And then they ultimately got themselves acquired into become the computer group at Lucasfilm. And then... Let's see, then they did, they were hoping, they were planning to do something for Empire Strikes Back, but Lucas didn't want to. They did do something for Return of the Jedi, but their famous calling card was the Star Trek II Wrath of Khan 1982 Genesis effect.

And then they ultimately got themselves acquired into become the computer group at Lucasfilm. And then... Let's see, then they did, they were hoping, they were planning to do something for Empire Strikes Back, but Lucas didn't want to. They did do something for Return of the Jedi, but their famous calling card was the Star Trek II Wrath of Khan 1982 Genesis effect.

So people who remember watching the Wrath of Khan will remember the Genesis device. It takes a dead world and turns it into something living. So that whole... It's like a two-minute sequence is the first... fully computer-generated animation sequence in a major motion picture. And with that calling card, they ended up doing a bunch more. Lucasfilm, they spun themselves out as Pixar.

So people who remember watching the Wrath of Khan will remember the Genesis device. It takes a dead world and turns it into something living. So that whole... It's like a two-minute sequence is the first... fully computer-generated animation sequence in a major motion picture. And with that calling card, they ended up doing a bunch more. Lucasfilm, they spun themselves out as Pixar.

Steve Jobs got involved. Toy Story, acquired by Disney later in life. But that's a super quick... uh, thread there, but yeah. Oh, and Andy, and certainly just finish this off. Sorry. Um, how did, so the television Emmy was a thing that, you know, uh, super paint was used in a bunch of television things, including by NASA for the pioneer Venus mission in 77, the pioneer Saturn mission in 78.

Steve Jobs got involved. Toy Story, acquired by Disney later in life. But that's a super quick... uh, thread there, but yeah. Oh, and Andy, and certainly just finish this off. Sorry. Um, how did, so the television Emmy was a thing that, you know, uh, super paint was used in a bunch of television things, including by NASA for the pioneer Venus mission in 77, the pioneer Saturn mission in 78.

Um, so like it was known in television that this thing existed. Um, but he wasn't, but dad never did anything in movies. Right. So why would the Academy, you know, award him a Lifetime Achievement Award. Well, it was with Alvy and another guy, Tom Porter from Pixar. And it was because in 1998, the Academy went to the Pixar folks and said, we would like to give you a Lifetime Achievement Award.

Um, so like it was known in television that this thing existed. Um, but he wasn't, but dad never did anything in movies. Right. So why would the Academy, you know, award him a Lifetime Achievement Award. Well, it was with Alvy and another guy, Tom Porter from Pixar. And it was because in 1998, the Academy went to the Pixar folks and said, we would like to give you a Lifetime Achievement Award.

We think you've earned it for Toy Story and the whole deal. And Alvy, to his great credit, says, sure, happy to take that, but you also have to find this crazy guy Dick Schaup and give him the same award because super paint, because this inspiration, and so on.

We think you've earned it for Toy Story and the whole deal. And Alvy, to his great credit, says, sure, happy to take that, but you also have to find this crazy guy Dick Schaup and give him the same award because super paint, because this inspiration, and so on.

I'm sure that was exactly the conversation that was had with my dad many, many times. And again, like to quote Alvy, like he's very stubborn.

I'm sure that was exactly the conversation that was had with my dad many, many times. And again, like to quote Alvy, like he's very stubborn.

Yeah, it's exactly the opposite of the current articles we were talking about in the beginning, right? So, like, LV could have said, yeah, I invented, you know, computer animation. And, like, he wouldn't have entirely been wrong, right? But every time he's interviewed, I mean, Google anything that LV says about his background, he will, in the first paragraph, say, yeah, I was really inspired.

Yeah, it's exactly the opposite of the current articles we were talking about in the beginning, right? So, like, LV could have said, yeah, I invented, you know, computer animation. And, like, he wouldn't have entirely been wrong, right? But every time he's interviewed, I mean, Google anything that LV says about his background, he will, in the first paragraph, say, yeah, I was really inspired.

You know, I was doing a bunch of graphics and I was interested in this area. But, you know, until I saw Superpaint and got inspired by Dick Schaup, you know, I didn't see how it would be the next, whatever, multiple decades of my life. You know, and yeah, so I mean, exactly. Credit where credit is due, but in a wonderful, I mean, Albie's wonderful, like a wonderfully humble and...

You know, I was doing a bunch of graphics and I was interested in this area. But, you know, until I saw Superpaint and got inspired by Dick Schaup, you know, I didn't see how it would be the next, whatever, multiple decades of my life. You know, and yeah, so I mean, exactly. Credit where credit is due, but in a wonderful, I mean, Albie's wonderful, like a wonderfully humble and...

I don't know, confident, if that makes any sense. Like, Alvy's got accolades up and down and left and right.

I don't know, confident, if that makes any sense. Like, Alvy's got accolades up and down and left and right.

Yeah, look, everything in a modern computer, I mean, you know more than anybody, you guys, at Oxide, right? Everything in the modern computer setup, any modern computing system, is layer upon layer upon layer of outrageous invention and discovery and science and hard work and perspiration in addition to inspiration.

Yeah, look, everything in a modern computer, I mean, you know more than anybody, you guys, at Oxide, right? Everything in the modern computer setup, any modern computing system, is layer upon layer upon layer of outrageous invention and discovery and science and hard work and perspiration in addition to inspiration.

the multiple, every layer is like, there's somebody whose life's work was that thing. And we have now, I'm making this up and you would know like, okay, there's a hundred layers or whatever, right? Like every single one, you're right. You know what I mean? Like everything. And you're like, that's only the firmware.

the multiple, every layer is like, there's somebody whose life's work was that thing. And we have now, I'm making this up and you would know like, okay, there's a hundred layers or whatever, right? Like every single one, you're right. You know what I mean? Like everything. And you're like, that's only the firmware.

Yeah, and I think, you know, I'm not unaware of the self-serving aspect of this, but I do not think that people today fully understand how much of current software systems that they work with owe everything to Park. And again, not even my dad. Again, my dad, to your point, and it's correct, is like an offshoot of an offshoot.

Yeah, and I think, you know, I'm not unaware of the self-serving aspect of this, but I do not think that people today fully understand how much of current software systems that they work with owe everything to Park. And again, not even my dad. Again, my dad, to your point, and it's correct, is like an offshoot of an offshoot.

His work, as he would say, did not figure in the main line of Alto to Star to Lisa to Mac, et cetera. I'm like, that's fine. He felt happy with what he did. But I think it is way underappreciated by particularly the younger generations, right? You know, get off my lawn.

His work, as he would say, did not figure in the main line of Alto to Star to Lisa to Mac, et cetera. I'm like, that's fine. He felt happy with what he did. But I think it is way underappreciated by particularly the younger generations, right? You know, get off my lawn.

was there and it took it it was so far ahead i mean it took 10 years minimum the ibm pc came out and there was nothing graphical about it right that's 10 years so it took it took tell the mac and you know amazing but still and this was you know quite the long like the park people were looking that going a we had that 10 years ago and b what a toy

was there and it took it it was so far ahead i mean it took 10 years minimum the ibm pc came out and there was nothing graphical about it right that's 10 years so it took it took tell the mac and you know amazing but still and this was you know quite the long like the park people were looking that going a we had that 10 years ago and b what a toy

you know, ultimately not one and, you know, breadth versus depth, if that makes any sense, like, right. I mean, it went, it went viral and did the personal computer that Alan K wanted to build. But yeah, I just don't think, you know, I just think, I don't think we appreciate enough the giants upon whose shoulders we stand, if that makes sense.

you know, ultimately not one and, you know, breadth versus depth, if that makes any sense, like, right. I mean, it went, it went viral and did the personal computer that Alan K wanted to build. But yeah, I just don't think, you know, I just think, I don't think we appreciate enough the giants upon whose shoulders we stand, if that makes sense.

Yeah, I mean, all of the above. So... When I was growing up, I was always interested in math and computers, and I didn't appreciate how different it was. I mean, no one appreciates how different their family is until they have experience with other families later in life, right?

Yeah, I mean, all of the above. So... When I was growing up, I was always interested in math and computers, and I didn't appreciate how different it was. I mean, no one appreciates how different their family is until they have experience with other families later in life, right?

So I didn't know it was weird to be a five-year-old and to beg your dad to take you to work on the weekends, which I totally did. So my parents were divorced when I was four, but dad was around, and my brother and I would be with him on weekends most of the time. And he would work because, hey... He liked to work.

So I didn't know it was weird to be a five-year-old and to beg your dad to take you to work on the weekends, which I totally did. So my parents were divorced when I was four, but dad was around, and my brother and I would be with him on weekends most of the time. And he would work because, hey... He liked to work.

And we could not have been happier to go to park because when we were babies, or babies, not babies, when we were little, we used to play in the beanbag conference room and make forts. And then later on, really, in retrospect, in retrospect, his was the only work that would appeal to like a five or six year old, right?

And we could not have been happier to go to park because when we were babies, or babies, not babies, when we were little, we used to play in the beanbag conference room and make forts. And then later on, really, in retrospect, in retrospect, his was the only work that would appeal to like a five or six year old, right?

Yeah, and I didn't know that, again, like, wait, don't you beg your dad to take you? No, my dad's a teacher. Yeah, so, you know, we would beg him to take us to work. And, you know, we would, again, play in the beanbag room when we were younger. And then there was a Star Trek movie. simulator thing, uh, which of course we love to play.

Yeah, and I didn't know that, again, like, wait, don't you beg your dad to take you? No, my dad's a teacher. Yeah, so, you know, we would beg him to take us to work. And, you know, we would, again, play in the beanbag room when we were younger. And then there was a Star Trek movie. simulator thing, uh, which of course we love to play.

And then as, uh, my dad's stuff with, uh, super paint came along. Yeah. We would draw pictures of spaceships and then we would print them on the laser printer in color. Um, and, and so the one time he told me not to like divulge anything was when we printed out the color, uh, thing from the laser printer, he's like, maybe don't show this to anybody from IBM. Um, What year is that? Gosh, let's see.

And then as, uh, my dad's stuff with, uh, super paint came along. Yeah. We would draw pictures of spaceships and then we would print them on the laser printer in color. Um, and, and so the one time he told me not to like divulge anything was when we printed out the color, uh, thing from the laser printer, he's like, maybe don't show this to anybody from IBM. Um, What year is that? Gosh, let's see.

Maybe 77.

Maybe 77.

So many missed opportunities.

So many missed opportunities.

I mean, yeah, I mean, when you're a kid, you're a kid. Things, you know, whatever your experience is seems normal. So I only really, it only really, I mean, I knew it intellectually, maybe in, let's call it in junior high and high school, but it didn't really hit me maybe until... college or later, just how very, very different, you know, that experience was, right?

I mean, yeah, I mean, when you're a kid, you're a kid. Things, you know, whatever your experience is seems normal. So I only really, it only really, I mean, I knew it intellectually, maybe in, let's call it in junior high and high school, but it didn't really hit me maybe until... college or later, just how very, very different, you know, that experience was, right?

Yeah, I mean, again, you know, we all, you know, we all stand on shoulders of giants. Anyway, but you're asking a question.

Yeah, I mean, again, you know, we all, you know, we all stand on shoulders of giants. Anyway, but you're asking a question.

I mean, I don't, this is only an analogy that I just thought of, and I don't know if it works, but you could, one could imagine that growing up in a royal family. And so this was not our case. You know, we were, we, we, we were very middle class. Uh, you know, uh, one thing, one thing dad never did was make a huge pile of money. Um, which is, you know, fine. He had a great, he had a great life.

I mean, I don't, this is only an analogy that I just thought of, and I don't know if it works, but you could, one could imagine that growing up in a royal family. And so this was not our case. You know, we were, we, we, we were very middle class. Uh, you know, uh, one thing, one thing dad never did was make a huge pile of money. Um, which is, you know, fine. He had a great, he had a great life.

Um, uh, but yeah, no, I mean, I guess if you're talking, you guys are reacting in the way that you're reacting and, uh, the only thing I can think of that comes immediately to mind is, you know, somebody that grows up in some like actual castle right now, you know, I walked out and we had the, the, the horse carers, you know, brought the horse for the day. And then I rode, right.

Um, uh, but yeah, no, I mean, I guess if you're talking, you guys are reacting in the way that you're reacting and, uh, the only thing I can think of that comes immediately to mind is, you know, somebody that grows up in some like actual castle right now, you know, I walked out and we had the, the, the horse carers, you know, brought the horse for the day. And then I rode, right.

Rode it and blah, blah, blah.

Rode it and blah, blah, blah.

Anyway, you did ask quick. I'll just quickly answer like what, how much of a, uh, in terms of expectations. And as I like to quote from the Tom Mariotti of Car Talk, happiness is reality minus expectations. So expectations were higher. I mean, look, I already tick all the privilege boxes, right? You know, white male, hetero, grow up in a strong economy. Tick, tick, tick, tick, tick.

Anyway, you did ask quick. I'll just quickly answer like what, how much of a, uh, in terms of expectations. And as I like to quote from the Tom Mariotti of Car Talk, happiness is reality minus expectations. So expectations were higher. I mean, look, I already tick all the privilege boxes, right? You know, white male, hetero, grow up in a strong economy. Tick, tick, tick, tick, tick.

You know, so the expectations should already be higher. But yeah, you know... Dad set a pretty high bar. And also, he never, I don't know how to feel about this, to be honest. He never once placed any expectation on me or my brother. And as part of me, it's like, wait, you don't think it could be as good? It's like, well, maybe not. So, you know, kind of goes both ways, I suppose.

You know, so the expectations should already be higher. But yeah, you know... Dad set a pretty high bar. And also, he never, I don't know how to feel about this, to be honest. He never once placed any expectation on me or my brother. And as part of me, it's like, wait, you don't think it could be as good? It's like, well, maybe not. So, you know, kind of goes both ways, I suppose.

Yeah, actually. So I didn't. Yeah. So my and this wasn't because I was scared away, but I just thought my talents were elsewhere. So very briefly in high school, I did debate. And so. Like all but one other person I can think of who is, you know, I knew from high school debate, I was planning on becoming a lawyer and I wanted I was super interested in international relations.

Yeah, actually. So I didn't. Yeah. So my and this wasn't because I was scared away, but I just thought my talents were elsewhere. So very briefly in high school, I did debate. And so. Like all but one other person I can think of who is, you know, I knew from high school debate, I was planning on becoming a lawyer and I wanted I was super interested in international relations.

And, you know, that time's height of the Cold War. So I was really interested in reducing the tens of thousands of nuclear weapons that, you know, the U.S. and the Soviet Union had pointed at each other. And so that was a real, you know. thing that I really cared about. And so my things don't always work out as you expect when you're a kid.

And, you know, that time's height of the Cold War. So I was really interested in reducing the tens of thousands of nuclear weapons that, you know, the U.S. and the Soviet Union had pointed at each other. And so that was a real, you know. thing that I really cared about. And so my things don't always work out as you expect when you're a kid.

So if you asked me at 13, all the way through to 23, I would have said my career is to be an international lawyer. It turns out that so I majored in political science at Stanford, but I also wanted to study math and computers because I was always interested in them. And thankfully, Stanford didn't have minors when I went because otherwise I would have gotten a minor and fine.

So if you asked me at 13, all the way through to 23, I would have said my career is to be an international lawyer. It turns out that so I majored in political science at Stanford, but I also wanted to study math and computers because I was always interested in them. And thankfully, Stanford didn't have minors when I went because otherwise I would have gotten a minor and fine.

But instead, the only way to do it seriously was to double major in mathematical and computational science, which was like nobody did that. It was like a handful of us in that major. It wasn't the computer science major. Even then, that was not that many. I hear it's like a third of the school is now computer science major. I mean, not even joking. Not even joking.

But instead, the only way to do it seriously was to double major in mathematical and computational science, which was like nobody did that. It was like a handful of us in that major. It wasn't the computer science major. Even then, that was not that many. I hear it's like a third of the school is now computer science major. I mean, not even joking. Not even joking.

So now the major that I had is the data science major. Oh, interesting. But anyway, whatever. So I double majored in the two things. And then during school, for another weird set of coincidences, I ended up interning at Intel for several summers. And so got a taste of, as a software engineer, so got a taste of doing software at Intel.

So now the major that I had is the data science major. Oh, interesting. But anyway, whatever. So I double majored in the two things. And then during school, for another weird set of coincidences, I ended up interning at Intel for several summers. And so got a taste of, as a software engineer, so got a taste of doing software at Intel.

I did not ever lie, but I bluffed as hard as I possibly could. So I will tell the story because it's funny. So my roommate sophomore year was a double E. Weirdly, he studied double E and is now a lawyer. I was planning to be a lawyer, and now I'm a computer guy. So I don't know where Stan Z went wrong. Yeah, we crossed the streams and went entirely different directions.

I did not ever lie, but I bluffed as hard as I possibly could. So I will tell the story because it's funny. So my roommate sophomore year was a double E. Weirdly, he studied double E and is now a lawyer. I was planning to be a lawyer, and now I'm a computer guy. So I don't know where Stan Z went wrong. Yeah, we crossed the streams and went entirely different directions.

Anyway, so Stan was a double E and very good at it. And so I'm reading one of my poli sci books and he sets the phone down in the room and he says, hey, this was weird. I said, what? He's like, well, you know how I just got an... This is like fall of the sophomore year. He's like, you know how I just got an internship at Intel for the summer? I'm like, yes.

Anyway, so Stan was a double E and very good at it. And so I'm reading one of my poli sci books and he sets the phone down in the room and he says, hey, this was weird. I said, what? He's like, well, you know how I just got an... This is like fall of the sophomore year. He's like, you know how I just got an internship at Intel for the summer? I'm like, yes.

And he says, well, I just got another like what? And the story was the guy. So he had applied to several. A guy said, please hire Stan and then went on vacation for three weeks. And when he came back, you know, he said to the whatever executive assistant or whoever. Hey, did you hire Stan? And like, I forgot to do that anyway.

And he says, well, I just got another like what? And the story was the guy. So he had applied to several. A guy said, please hire Stan and then went on vacation for three weeks. And when he came back, you know, he said to the whatever executive assistant or whoever. Hey, did you hire Stan? And like, I forgot to do that anyway.

That's right. No, I did it above board. So Stan had already taken another job, another internship at Intel. And so he said, do you know anybody who would want this internship? And I was like, well... I had applied at the Arms Control Center, you know, to work over the summer, but they haven't gotten back to me. So sure, let me, you know, let me talk to them.

That's right. No, I did it above board. So Stan had already taken another job, another internship at Intel. And so he said, do you know anybody who would want this internship? And I was like, well... I had applied at the Arms Control Center, you know, to work over the summer, but they haven't gotten back to me. So sure, let me, you know, let me talk to them.

And so I ended up, you know, working really hard on talking about all the math classes that I had taken and, you know, the limited computer science and, you know, really tried to impress upon the guy who became my boss that I

And so I ended up, you know, working really hard on talking about all the math classes that I had taken and, you know, the limited computer science and, you know, really tried to impress upon the guy who became my boss that I

I didn't know. All I knew was, hey, I've been around computers for a long time. My dad used to do this thing.

I didn't know. All I knew was, hey, I've been around computers for a long time. My dad used to do this thing.

president's day here uh on on oxide and friends so hey so randy i'm gonna um you know we know you're a listener of the pod is that is that a fair i may uh i can't say long time listener but i'm a relatively recent time listener but i've been uh binging um and not just because you not just because you invited me but because like so i was a big fan of on the metal and then you know you guys went dark on that and

president's day here uh on on oxide and friends so hey so randy i'm gonna um you know we know you're a listener of the pod is that is that a fair i may uh i can't say long time listener but i'm a relatively recent time listener but i've been uh binging um and not just because you not just because you invited me but because like so i was a big fan of on the metal and then you know you guys went dark on that and

Yeah. I wasn't so strategic. Um, I just thought I was trying to get an internship and, um, And anyway, it ultimately worked. But later, Bob Chen, who was my boss there at Intel, was like, yeah, I could read that you didn't really, he didn't quite say it this way, but you didn't really know what you were doing, but you really impressed upon me that you were willing to learn.

Yeah. I wasn't so strategic. Um, I just thought I was trying to get an internship and, um, And anyway, it ultimately worked. But later, Bob Chen, who was my boss there at Intel, was like, yeah, I could read that you didn't really, he didn't quite say it this way, but you didn't really know what you were doing, but you really impressed upon me that you were willing to learn.

And so I liked your attitude. I was like, That's great.

And so I liked your attitude. I was like, That's great.

A couple of summers, yeah. I worked in the mask shop. So for you guys know, I know, but for the others, a mask is the, to make semiconductors, you need this big glass plate that you write, you draw the outline of the circuit on there, and then you shine the, now it's x-ray light, but then UV through that thing, and it makes a shadow, and it changes the

A couple of summers, yeah. I worked in the mask shop. So for you guys know, I know, but for the others, a mask is the, to make semiconductors, you need this big glass plate that you write, you draw the outline of the circuit on there, and then you shine the, now it's x-ray light, but then UV through that thing, and it makes a shadow, and it changes the

uh, chemistry of the thing you're writing on and then you etch it away, blah, blah, blah.

uh, chemistry of the thing you're writing on and then you etch it away, blah, blah, blah.

Uh, no, no worries. Uh, anyway, so yeah, the, uh, so the mask shop Intel did that in, in the house, you know, and it was a pretty small group and they needed people to write software tools to help them do, uh, statistical process control for the machines, and just a bunch of software tools. So I got a lot of playing around with Oracle databases and writing Yeah.

Uh, no, no worries. Uh, anyway, so yeah, the, uh, so the mask shop Intel did that in, in the house, you know, and it was a pretty small group and they needed people to write software tools to help them do, uh, statistical process control for the machines, and just a bunch of software tools. So I got a lot of playing around with Oracle databases and writing Yeah.

Writing queries and graphs and so on for the technicians and the engineers to do their job. So I had a great time and it was a great group of people. Really, really fun. So I did that after sophomore summer, then after junior summer. And then I actually worked part time as like a. Flexible work hours employee, like an actual part-time employee, not an intern for senior year.

Writing queries and graphs and so on for the technicians and the engineers to do their job. So I had a great time and it was a great group of people. Really, really fun. So I did that after sophomore summer, then after junior summer. And then I actually worked part time as like a. Flexible work hours employee, like an actual part-time employee, not an intern for senior year.

So I would take classes Monday, Wednesday, Friday at Stanford. Then I would drive down to Santa Clara to work Tuesday, Thursday all day.

So I would take classes Monday, Wednesday, Friday at Stanford. Then I would drive down to Santa Clara to work Tuesday, Thursday all day.

Oh, not yet. Not yet. Okay, so very briefly. So let's say I graduated. I did not want to go straight to law school. Most people don't. So I worked for Oracle for two years as a software engineer. That was great. Had a great time.

Oh, not yet. Not yet. Okay, so very briefly. So let's say I graduated. I did not want to go straight to law school. Most people don't. So I worked for Oracle for two years as a software engineer. That was great. Had a great time.

And then much to the chagrin and surprise of my compatriots and manager, I'm like, okay, now's the time to take the GRE and the LSAT and get all set to go to law school and international relations school. And everybody looked at me like I was crazy. And I said, hey, I've been telling you for two years. This is what's going to happen.

And then much to the chagrin and surprise of my compatriots and manager, I'm like, okay, now's the time to take the GRE and the LSAT and get all set to go to law school and international relations school. And everybody looked at me like I was crazy. And I said, hey, I've been telling you for two years. This is what's going to happen.

I should I should I should be taken most seriously and literally when I when I tell you when I tell you that. Anyway, so, yeah. So apply to law school and international relations school. I end up starting a program, which is a joint program. Stanford Law, Johns Hopkins, School of Advanced International Studies, master's, normally three years plus two years. If you combine it, it's four.

I should I should I should be taken most seriously and literally when I when I tell you when I tell you that. Anyway, so, yeah. So apply to law school and international relations school. I end up starting a program, which is a joint program. Stanford Law, Johns Hopkins, School of Advanced International Studies, master's, normally three years plus two years. If you combine it, it's four.

So I started, and the way that you do it is you do like a year of law school, then a year of the IR school, and then back and forth semester by semester. Anyway, so I did the first year at Stanford Law School. It was fantastic. Fine. And then I took the took a they would call it a summer associateship. So, you know, an internship for law students over the summer.

So I started, and the way that you do it is you do like a year of law school, then a year of the IR school, and then back and forth semester by semester. Anyway, so I did the first year at Stanford Law School. It was fantastic. Fine. And then I took the took a they would call it a summer associateship. So, you know, an internship for law students over the summer.

And it should have been the perfect job. And I hated it. So it was the small office in on Sand Hill Road. So a big New York firm called Wow Got Y'all and Managers, a tiny Silicon Valley branch office that did what's called patent prosecution, which is getting people patents. It's not about suing. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

And it should have been the perfect job. And I hated it. So it was the small office in on Sand Hill Road. So a big New York firm called Wow Got Y'all and Managers, a tiny Silicon Valley branch office that did what's called patent prosecution, which is getting people patents. It's not about suing. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

came back in your various spaces and clubhouses and, you know, ephemeral things. And so I lost track, but now I'm back. Now you're back.

came back in your various spaces and clubhouses and, you know, ephemeral things. And so I lost track, but now I'm back. Now you're back.

And so what I thought it would be, and again, on Silicon Valley Road, on a sandhill road, like right next to all the VCs at that very last location. Right before 280, on the right-hand side when you're going north, that whole complex there. It's a bunch of VCs that are still there. KP is still there. A bunch of them are still right there. Yeah, there you go. I've visited several.

And so what I thought it would be, and again, on Silicon Valley Road, on a sandhill road, like right next to all the VCs at that very last location. Right before 280, on the right-hand side when you're going north, that whole complex there. It's a bunch of VCs that are still there. KP is still there. A bunch of them are still right there. Yeah, there you go. I've visited several.

Even, even farther away. So like really right.

Even, even farther away. So like really right.

So if you know, cause it's all like VC, VC, VC, VC. Exactly. Yeah. Anyway. So, uh, small office, uh, It was casual dress, which was very unheard of for people and lawyers in 1993. But, you know, hey, our clients were dressed in business casual. So we were to really like the attorneys.

So if you know, cause it's all like VC, VC, VC, VC. Exactly. Yeah. Anyway. So, uh, small office, uh, It was casual dress, which was very unheard of for people and lawyers in 1993. But, you know, hey, our clients were dressed in business casual. So we were to really like the attorneys.

But I just hated every minute of getting people patents and what anybody who's been involved in a patent on either side. It is the inventor is up there on the whiteboard describing his or her amazing invention, and the lawyer is a scribe who writes down diligently all the things that the amazing inventor has invented, and then does bureaucratic infighting with the patent office to get a patent.

But I just hated every minute of getting people patents and what anybody who's been involved in a patent on either side. It is the inventor is up there on the whiteboard describing his or her amazing invention, and the lawyer is a scribe who writes down diligently all the things that the amazing inventor has invented, and then does bureaucratic infighting with the patent office to get a patent.

And so every moment it was so painful for me to be sitting at the conference table, looking at somebody designing or outlining their design on the whiteboard where it's like, I want to be that person. I don't want to be this person. And, um, that was a big, uh, soul searching for me that summer. Cause Hey, I'd been telling people and myself wasn't lying.

And so every moment it was so painful for me to be sitting at the conference table, looking at somebody designing or outlining their design on the whiteboard where it's like, I want to be that person. I don't want to be this person. And, um, that was a big, uh, soul searching for me that summer. Cause Hey, I'd been telling people and myself wasn't lying.

I didn't think so for 10 years, this is what I want to do. And Oh my God, I, now I have exactly what I've always wanted, you know, the combination of the two interests and I hated it. So I'm immediately thinking, okay, well, what if I finish up law school and IR school? I go in-house at a technology company. Maybe in 10 years, they give me a technology group to run.

I didn't think so for 10 years, this is what I want to do. And Oh my God, I, now I have exactly what I've always wanted, you know, the combination of the two interests and I hated it. So I'm immediately thinking, okay, well, what if I finish up law school and IR school? I go in-house at a technology company. Maybe in 10 years, they give me a technology group to run.

And I'm like, oh my God, you're an idiot.

And I'm like, oh my God, you're an idiot.

Anyway, long story short, it was so obvious what needed to happen, but it took me a long time to get comfortable with it, if that makes sense. So I never went back. I stopped out, as Stanford says. Never went to the Johns Hopkins. I never completed law school. And I have never once... ever regretted that decision.

Anyway, long story short, it was so obvious what needed to happen, but it took me a long time to get comfortable with it, if that makes sense. So I never went back. I stopped out, as Stanford says. Never went to the Johns Hopkins. I never completed law school. And I have never once... ever regretted that decision.

And Adam, to your exact point, if it had been anything else other than the otherwise perfect job on paper and after my first year summer, I would have continued on. Because like, oh, it is... formal dress or, you know, whatever. I hate that. It's a big firm that's all faceless. You know, tick, tick, tick. I would have looked for... Just because, you know, I'm a human. Like, I've had this plan.

And Adam, to your exact point, if it had been anything else other than the otherwise perfect job on paper and after my first year summer, I would have continued on. Because like, oh, it is... formal dress or, you know, whatever. I hate that. It's a big firm that's all faceless. You know, tick, tick, tick. I would have looked for... Just because, you know, I'm a human. Like, I've had this plan.

I'm just going to execute the plan. So, yeah, if it had been anything other than perfect and early, because the other thing is like, oh, my whole life is going to be terrible, but hey, I'm already halfway through the program.

I'm just going to execute the plan. So, yeah, if it had been anything other than perfect and early, because the other thing is like, oh, my whole life is going to be terrible, but hey, I'm already halfway through the program.

Yeah. Well, yeah, and there are a lot of people that come out of law school and never want to practice and don't. And, you know, you can do other things. But it would have been hard for me to go back to being a software engineer, which I did do. So I finished that up and I went and begged for my job back at Intel.

Yeah. Well, yeah, and there are a lot of people that come out of law school and never want to practice and don't. And, you know, you can do other things. But it would have been hard for me to go back to being a software engineer, which I did do. So I finished that up and I went and begged for my job back at Intel.

And my great friend and mentor, Gidish Pancha, who just retired from being CEO of StreamSets, said,

And my great friend and mentor, Gidish Pancha, who just retired from being CEO of StreamSets, said,

We can cut all this out. It is both true that Oracle overall, even at that time in the early 90s, was, you know, you don't want to be a partner with them. I have a sidebar to say about making your customers your enemy. And is that a really good business strategy? But I loved my little group. So all of them were great friends. They were all groomsmen in my wedding.

We can cut all this out. It is both true that Oracle overall, even at that time in the early 90s, was, you know, you don't want to be a partner with them. I have a sidebar to say about making your customers your enemy. And is that a really good business strategy? But I loved my little group. So all of them were great friends. They were all groomsmen in my wedding.

And my best friends for, what's this now, 35 years, are all the people that were on Team Browser. And so we built a, this was before web browsers, so that was only 95. This was 1990. We built a ad hoc query tool, which was called Oracle Data Browser.

And my best friends for, what's this now, 35 years, are all the people that were on Team Browser. And so we built a, this was before web browsers, so that was only 95. This was 1990. We built a ad hoc query tool, which was called Oracle Data Browser.

And it was all bitmap graphics. And you graphically built your query out of little boxes and lines. Imagine an entity relationship diagram. And then it was a spreadsheet output.

And it was all bitmap graphics. And you graphically built your query out of little boxes and lines. Imagine an entity relationship diagram. And then it was a spreadsheet output.

Excuse me.

Excuse me.

Uh, yeah, because right. So, uh, let's see. That was, so I graduated.

Uh, yeah, because right. So, uh, let's see. That was, so I graduated.

Less than 10,000. Probably less than 10,000. Yeah, that's probably about right. Yeah, the funny thing about... going to work for Oracle in 1990 and graduating from Stanford then is, I hope they have changed this policy, but at the time the policy was Oracle only hires from these whatever, eight schools, and you can imagine what they are.

Less than 10,000. Probably less than 10,000. Yeah, that's probably about right. Yeah, the funny thing about... going to work for Oracle in 1990 and graduating from Stanford then is, I hope they have changed this policy, but at the time the policy was Oracle only hires from these whatever, eight schools, and you can imagine what they are.

And the very explicit recruiting strategy was we will hire smart people No matter what, and we'll put them in any place that they're willing to do the job. So it was well known and well leveraged among my graduating class that if you had a heartbeat and a Stanford degree, you could work at Oracle. Oh, interesting.

And the very explicit recruiting strategy was we will hire smart people No matter what, and we'll put them in any place that they're willing to do the job. So it was well known and well leveraged among my graduating class that if you had a heartbeat and a Stanford degree, you could work at Oracle. Oh, interesting.

So there was a part of me, you know, I had people who were like amazing people in my poli sci classes, totally amazing people now in the school, now in actual foreign service. Oh, yeah. Receptionist at Oracle, you know, was their first job. And so that was actually a potential downside for me because it's like, hey, we devalued this whole thing by like anybody from Stanford could come here.

So there was a part of me, you know, I had people who were like amazing people in my poli sci classes, totally amazing people now in the school, now in actual foreign service. Oh, yeah. Receptionist at Oracle, you know, was their first job. And so that was actually a potential downside for me because it's like, hey, we devalued this whole thing by like anybody from Stanford could come here.

But I made myself feel good, and it was actually true, that for the engineering group, it was a little more rigorous, if that makes any sense.

But I made myself feel good, and it was actually true, that for the engineering group, it was a little more rigorous, if that makes any sense.

Yeah, I was there for a total of seven years from 1990 to 97. And you can forget about the year I was away, I suppose, at law school. And yeah, and so after that, I went to a company called Tumbleweed, which did security software, worked there ultimately as chief architect and a technical fellow for about six years. Brief stint at Informatica, which does, you know,

Yeah, I was there for a total of seven years from 1990 to 97. And you can forget about the year I was away, I suppose, at law school. And yeah, and so after that, I went to a company called Tumbleweed, which did security software, worked there ultimately as chief architect and a technical fellow for about six years. Brief stint at Informatica, which does, you know,

data warehousing, et cetera, data integration. And then I joined eBay for the first time. 2004 to 2011, I worked as an individual contributor on eBay's real-time search engine. So now, real-time search, you get that for free with Elastic. Everybody has it. It's easy. Nobody, as far as I can tell and find, nobody was doing real-time, all-in-memory

data warehousing, et cetera, data integration. And then I joined eBay for the first time. 2004 to 2011, I worked as an individual contributor on eBay's real-time search engine. So now, real-time search, you get that for free with Elastic. Everybody has it. It's easy. Nobody, as far as I can tell and find, nobody was doing real-time, all-in-memory

Yeah, yeah. So I blew past that in my... So I was at Tumbleweed through the up and the down of .com. So again, that's 2000...

Yeah, yeah. So I blew past that in my... So I was at Tumbleweed through the up and the down of .com. So again, that's 2000...

Oh, yeah. I never. Yeah, I was loving. I was loving doing that. you know, being an individual contributor and leadership.

Oh, yeah. I never. Yeah, I was loving. I was loving doing that. you know, being an individual contributor and leadership.

Oh my God. Oh my gosh. And for so many years, also after 2008, it took several years for, it's very nonlinear, right? It took several years for 280 to get traffic again. Yeah. So, so Tumbleweed went public in August of 1999 and,

Oh my God. Oh my gosh. And for so many years, also after 2008, it took several years for, it's very nonlinear, right? It took several years for 280 to get traffic again. Yeah. So, so Tumbleweed went public in August of 1999 and,

And as a sidebar, one of the things I loved about that place was the, so it was founded by a Stanford, two people from Stanford, but one is an American who went to Stanford and another was a French person who got his, his master's at Stanford. And they were the co-founders of this security company. And, and, The day... So we went public on, I want to call it August 6th, 1999.

And as a sidebar, one of the things I loved about that place was the, so it was founded by a Stanford, two people from Stanford, but one is an American who went to Stanford and another was a French person who got his, his master's at Stanford. And they were the co-founders of this security company. And, and, The day... So we went public on, I want to call it August 6th, 1999.

And so August 7th, a Saturday, we were moving. My then-wife and I were moving, and we got everybody to help. So the day after, the French co-founder became a multi-ten millionaire. He and the other and my boss, another French guy and a bunch of other people from work drove up to San Francisco to San Francisco to help us move.

And so August 7th, a Saturday, we were moving. My then-wife and I were moving, and we got everybody to help. So the day after, the French co-founder became a multi-ten millionaire. He and the other and my boss, another French guy and a bunch of other people from work drove up to San Francisco to San Francisco to help us move.

rocket ship uh stock price it it was over 100 within let's call it six months or so and then about a month after it hit 100 it hit three oh wow i hate when that happens oh man and then you of course on the way down because it's been at 100 you're like it can't go below 50 it's like why can't it go below 50 it's like well because it was at 100 it's like well now it's at 20 what's

rocket ship uh stock price it it was over 100 within let's call it six months or so and then about a month after it hit 100 it hit three oh wow i hate when that happens oh man and then you of course on the way down because it's been at 100 you're like it can't go below 50 it's like why can't it go below 50 it's like well because it was at 100 it's like well now it's at 20 what's

Let's just say this, that I learned a lot about the tax law, about how you can take... You're already laughing at me. Laws carry forward. Yes, laws carry forward. And so ultimately, that...

Let's just say this, that I learned a lot about the tax law, about how you can take... You're already laughing at me. Laws carry forward. Yes, laws carry forward. And so ultimately, that...

Let's just say I didn't pay any capital gains for the next decade. That's right.

Let's just say I didn't pay any capital gains for the next decade. That's right.

I wish I were making that up.

I wish I were making that up.

Yeah. Look, I mean, it, it, this is true. Every, what is it? Experience. Success comes from experience. Experience comes from failure, right? So all these things are learning experiences. I mean, they really are. And, you know, we could have our blameless postmortem about it. Like, in retrospect, I learned a lot. Like, okay, don't assume that everything's going to always go up.

Yeah. Look, I mean, it, it, this is true. Every, what is it? Experience. Success comes from experience. Experience comes from failure, right? So all these things are learning experiences. I mean, they really are. And, you know, we could have our blameless postmortem about it. Like, in retrospect, I learned a lot. Like, okay, don't assume that everything's going to always go up.

take, take profits along the way, you know, uh, and, and various other things. And like, look, it cleared out the fair weather.

take, take profits along the way, you know, uh, and, and various other things. And like, look, it cleared out the fair weather.

Yeah. Um, but you'll appreciate this, Brian, in particular, like it clears out the fair weather fans.

Yeah. Um, but you'll appreciate this, Brian, in particular, like it clears out the fair weather fans.

It absolutely clears out the fair weather fans. And is that a good, like, do I want, is that a thing where like, Oh, I'm so glad people suffered. Like, no, but yeah, this is what happens, right? Like something bad happens in the world and okay, it causes us to reassess things.

It absolutely clears out the fair weather fans. And is that a good, like, do I want, is that a thing where like, Oh, I'm so glad people suffered. Like, no, but yeah, this is what happens, right? Like something bad happens in the world and okay, it causes us to reassess things.

And sometimes we make different decisions after something like, again, if everything's all well, it's like the trust fund baby, right? If you've always, everything's been handed to you your whole life, you don't really appreciate it. And you don't really learn from it. You don't really grow. Like you stay as a toddler and,

And sometimes we make different decisions after something like, again, if everything's all well, it's like the trust fund baby, right? If you've always, everything's been handed to you your whole life, you don't really appreciate it. And you don't really learn from it. You don't really grow. Like you stay as a toddler and,

Yeah. I mean, like 1973. What is that? You mean you think of oil lines, right? You think of cars. It was the Middle East oil crisis. Cars backed up at gas stations, backed up around the corner. Huge economic shocks all over the world.

Yeah. I mean, like 1973. What is that? You mean you think of oil lines, right? You think of cars. It was the Middle East oil crisis. Cars backed up at gas stations, backed up around the corner. Huge economic shocks all over the world.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Right. I want to do computer graphics, whether my boss likes it or not. Yeah. And again, sort of back. Bringing it back to the opener about, you know, is Silicon Valley really all about hard right politics and money grubbing? Like, the people... The researchers in that lab paid pretty well, but they weren't multimillionaires, right?

Right. I want to do computer graphics, whether my boss likes it or not. Yeah. And again, sort of back. Bringing it back to the opener about, you know, is Silicon Valley really all about hard right politics and money grubbing? Like, the people... The researchers in that lab paid pretty well, but they weren't multimillionaires, right?

There was no expectation from, I mean, they were doing freaking research, right? You know, so you could work for, I mean, if you wanted to do research, you could be in academia or you could work for a government thing. You work for Bell Labs, you work for Xerox and maybe IBM. But, you know, it wasn't, people did not choose that life. Nobody goes to be a PhD to make money. Right.

There was no expectation from, I mean, they were doing freaking research, right? You know, so you could work for, I mean, if you wanted to do research, you could be in academia or you could work for a government thing. You work for Bell Labs, you work for Xerox and maybe IBM. But, you know, it wasn't, people did not choose that life. Nobody goes to be a PhD to make money. Right.

No one sits there for five years doing what they do because they think... they're going to get rich. Anyway, so just coming back to, again, is everybody perfect and it's all rainbows and unicorns? Like, no, of course not. But the, but again, looking back can teach us a lot about, you know, there really is, there really is a spirit to this place.

No one sits there for five years doing what they do because they think... they're going to get rich. Anyway, so just coming back to, again, is everybody perfect and it's all rainbows and unicorns? Like, no, of course not. But the, but again, looking back can teach us a lot about, you know, there really is, there really is a spirit to this place.

And should there be other places on the planet that are like this? Like I, as a Silicon Valley person, I, I hope so. I want that to be true. I want there to be, the silicon slopes and the silicon alley and the silicon tundra and the silicon jungle. I mean, that's a great thing for the world. I mean, that's a great thing for the world.

And should there be other places on the planet that are like this? Like I, as a Silicon Valley person, I, I hope so. I want that to be true. I want there to be, the silicon slopes and the silicon alley and the silicon tundra and the silicon jungle. I mean, that's a great thing for the world. I mean, that's a great thing for the world.

I know enough distributed systems to know not to have a single point of failure. But I will say that... Personally, I benefited a lot because I love travel. And, you know, one of the things that I wanted to do in my international deal was, hey, go around the world and make things better. Well, the world came to me. In the most wonderful... I mean, like, do I also want to go places? Sure, I am due.

I know enough distributed systems to know not to have a single point of failure. But I will say that... Personally, I benefited a lot because I love travel. And, you know, one of the things that I wanted to do in my international deal was, hey, go around the world and make things better. Well, the world came to me. In the most wonderful... I mean, like, do I also want to go places? Sure, I am due.

But like... I mean, the other thing I think people don't fully grok, again, because all the billionaires are all white men, is just how incredibly diverse this place is. Could we be more diverse? Oh, yeah. Could we have better gender diversity? Oh, my gosh. And also people from every place on the planet.

But like... I mean, the other thing I think people don't fully grok, again, because all the billionaires are all white men, is just how incredibly diverse this place is. Could we be more diverse? Oh, yeah. Could we have better gender diversity? Oh, my gosh. And also people from every place on the planet.

come here and they come here because they, this is the place, you know, to do this kind of stuff. And I don't think that's bad. Uh, you know, again, I want there to be more places. People shouldn't have to leave Nigeria to do great stuff, if that makes sense.

come here and they come here because they, this is the place, you know, to do this kind of stuff. And I don't think that's bad. Uh, you know, again, I want there to be more places. People shouldn't have to leave Nigeria to do great stuff, if that makes sense.

Yeah, it's crazy. I mean, the fact that, you know, it's this whatever PayPal mafia, you know, slightly enlarged and the worst of them all that are like, you know, destroying the Republic like that's not great. And then what has annoyed me actually maybe told me in this area is these like relative I've written I've read several articles recently about

Yeah, it's crazy. I mean, the fact that, you know, it's this whatever PayPal mafia, you know, slightly enlarged and the worst of them all that are like, you know, destroying the Republic like that's not great. And then what has annoyed me actually maybe told me in this area is these like relative I've written I've read several articles recently about

But, um, anyway, I just, you know, I, I think that we should, I mean, certainly those of us who live here should feel really grateful about that.

But, um, anyway, I just, you know, I, I think that we should, I mean, certainly those of us who live here should feel really grateful about that.

It's flat organization. You guys are probably familiar with the Western organizational model, right? Pathological, bureaucratic, and generative. Bureaucratic is like rules and standards. That's exactly Xerox at that time, broadly. We do it this way because it's the way it's always been done. Then every successful...

It's flat organization. You guys are probably familiar with the Western organizational model, right? Pathological, bureaucratic, and generative. Bureaucratic is like rules and standards. That's exactly Xerox at that time, broadly. We do it this way because it's the way it's always been done. Then every successful...

Every successful group technical work over the last century, I will fight people on this, comes from a generative culture. So Park was absolutely, you know, so very little hierarchy, respect for the ideas, not respect for the people. Like, not respect for the titles, that makes sense. Like, respect for the people, but not the title. That makes any sense? Everybody helping each other.

Every successful group technical work over the last century, I will fight people on this, comes from a generative culture. So Park was absolutely, you know, so very little hierarchy, respect for the ideas, not respect for the people. Like, not respect for the titles, that makes sense. Like, respect for the people, but not the title. That makes any sense? Everybody helping each other.

Focus on prospects. Focus on outcomes, autonomy, mastery, purpose.

Focus on prospects. Focus on outcomes, autonomy, mastery, purpose.

Yeah, it's exactly... And also, it was a business. So they were not just trying to research for research's sake. They were trying to... You know, Xerox didn't capitalize on it, but all the individuals did. They all invented, you know, the future. You know, each individual one. So, you know, it spawned out. There's a wonderful poster, which I would love to get access to again.

Yeah, it's exactly... And also, it was a business. So they were not just trying to research for research's sake. They were trying to... You know, Xerox didn't capitalize on it, but all the individuals did. They all invented, you know, the future. You know, each individual one. So, you know, it spawned out. There's a wonderful poster, which I would love to get access to again.

I'm sure it's somewhere on the interwebs. That shows Park at the center and then all of the other companies that were derived from it.

I'm sure it's somewhere on the interwebs. That shows Park at the center and then all of the other companies that were derived from it.

Yeah, so I am so convinced by that that I did a talk, which you can find on YouTube, called Breaking Codes, Designing Jets, and Building Teams, something like that. And so Park didn't invent this structure. The three examples that I use are Bletchley Park, where Alan Turing and

Yeah, so I am so convinced by that that I did a talk, which you can find on YouTube, called Breaking Codes, Designing Jets, and Building Teams, something like that. And so Park didn't invent this structure. The three examples that I use are Bletchley Park, where Alan Turing and

tommy flowers and everybody broke the german enigma codes and the lawrence cipher and won world war ii um again exactly similar to this hugely uh generative culture actually very diverse three quarters of the people at bletchley park were women of the 10 000 people at uh at peak um again autonomy mastery purpose exactly a park structured thing this is in obviously in the in the mid 40s uh

tommy flowers and everybody broke the german enigma codes and the lawrence cipher and won world war ii um again exactly similar to this hugely uh generative culture actually very diverse three quarters of the people at bletchley park were women of the 10 000 people at uh at peak um again autonomy mastery purpose exactly a park structured thing this is in obviously in the in the mid 40s uh

Lockheed Skunk Works, where they built, for generation after generation, the fastest, highest flying aircraft the world has ever seen. That includes the U-2. That includes stealth technology with the F-117. That includes the SR-71 Blackbird, which is still the fastest, highest flying aircraft, even though it was built in the 60s.

Lockheed Skunk Works, where they built, for generation after generation, the fastest, highest flying aircraft the world has ever seen. That includes the U-2. That includes stealth technology with the F-117. That includes the SR-71 Blackbird, which is still the fastest, highest flying aircraft, even though it was built in the 60s.

oh, Silicon Valley's always been super hard right. Like, no. No. Have you ever been here? We were like, since the 70s, it's been like hippies and LSD and counterculture and changing the world. And it's only relatively recently in the history of Silicon Valley that it has been about money, money, money. And even the people... that have made all that money.

oh, Silicon Valley's always been super hard right. Like, no. No. Have you ever been here? We were like, since the 70s, it's been like hippies and LSD and counterculture and changing the world. And it's only relatively recently in the history of Silicon Valley that it has been about money, money, money. And even the people... that have made all that money.

Oh, my gosh. Amazing aircraft. And Kelly's model there, again, starting very soon after the war. I think it was like 46 or maybe even during the war. Oh, no, absolutely it was during the war. What am I talking about? Because during the war, they replicated a bunch of German jets. They built the lightning. They built everything. Anyway, where was I going with that?

Oh, my gosh. Amazing aircraft. And Kelly's model there, again, starting very soon after the war. I think it was like 46 or maybe even during the war. Oh, no, absolutely it was during the war. What am I talking about? Because during the war, they replicated a bunch of German jets. They built the lightning. They built everything. Anyway, where was I going with that?

Again, extremely generative culture. And Kelly has his 14 rules, which are almost exactly like, you could quote that verbatim, and it'd be exactly like a DevOps streamlined team topologies setup today. Anyway, and then Park was mentioned.

Again, extremely generative culture. And Kelly has his 14 rules, which are almost exactly like, you could quote that verbatim, and it'd be exactly like a DevOps streamlined team topologies setup today. Anyway, and then Park was mentioned.

Yeah, by the way, I did say Kelly Clarkson, then I meant Kelly Johnson. But anyway, yeah, so it was reading Ben Rich's Skunk Works book that I had bought for my son, where all this stuff clicked. It was like, oh my god, it's like describing in the foreword what kind of culture that Kelly had put together and Ben Rich had continued. And it was like, oh, this is exactly DevOps.

Yeah, by the way, I did say Kelly Clarkson, then I meant Kelly Johnson. But anyway, yeah, so it was reading Ben Rich's Skunk Works book that I had bought for my son, where all this stuff clicked. It was like, oh my god, it's like describing in the foreword what kind of culture that Kelly had put together and Ben Rich had continued. And it was like, oh, this is exactly DevOps.

This is exactly generative culture. And then The talk almost wrote it. I mean, I did a bunch of research, but like the structure of the talk, like just wrote itself in five minutes, if that makes sense.

This is exactly generative culture. And then The talk almost wrote it. I mean, I did a bunch of research, but like the structure of the talk, like just wrote itself in five minutes, if that makes sense.

Yeah, so it was called Aurora Imaging Systems.

Yeah, so it was called Aurora Imaging Systems.

And they built hardware. They built graphics hardware. They did, like, SuperPaint++. OK. And started that in, I want to say, 79. That sounds about right. And did that for 10 years. Oh, wow. OK. And then later he went back to research. So he actually went to Paul Allen's Interval Research, which was the attempt to recreate Park. And then he went to a research lab funded by Rico in the Bay Area.

And they built hardware. They built graphics hardware. They did, like, SuperPaint++. OK. And started that in, I want to say, 79. That sounds about right. And did that for 10 years. Oh, wow. OK. And then later he went back to research. So he actually went to Paul Allen's Interval Research, which was the attempt to recreate Park. And then he went to a research lab funded by Rico in the Bay Area.

Anyway, but Aurora for a sec. So, yeah. So when he was ignominiously fired, finally, you know, at Park for, you know, being too crazy and too colorful, you know.

Anyway, but Aurora for a sec. So, yeah. So when he was ignominiously fired, finally, you know, at Park for, you know, being too crazy and too colorful, you know.

Oh, yeah. Right. He shows up and they're like, hey, Dick, they're having a meeting about you. And so he bursts in and yeah, they're talking about how to take all this. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Right. He shows up and they're like, hey, Dick, they're having a meeting about you. And so he bursts in and yeah, they're talking about how to take all this. Yeah.

Yeah, he was able to rescue all of the hardware. Oh, and I didn't close this loop. SuperPaint is in the Computer History Museum collection, and it rotates. So there was a time when I was visiting actually with eBay colleagues. Sometimes you do escape rooms as things. This was, hey, we'd go to the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, and we're just walking along.

Yeah, he was able to rescue all of the hardware. Oh, and I didn't close this loop. SuperPaint is in the Computer History Museum collection, and it rotates. So there was a time when I was visiting actually with eBay colleagues. Sometimes you do escape rooms as things. This was, hey, we'd go to the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, and we're just walking along.

I would, I would totally do that. Anyway. So we go there and we're walking along and I'm like, Hey, here's my dad's computer system. And they're like, what? I'm like, read that. Oh, it says, you know, Richard G shop, super paint, blah, blah, blah. Anyway. So it's in the collection. Um, And I'm not sure I was going with that, but he does Aurora. So he, so, uh, yeah.

I would, I would totally do that. Anyway. So we go there and we're walking along and I'm like, Hey, here's my dad's computer system. And they're like, what? I'm like, read that. Oh, it says, you know, Richard G shop, super paint, blah, blah, blah. Anyway. So it's in the collection. Um, And I'm not sure I was going with that, but he does Aurora. So he, so, uh, yeah.

So he, he, uh, founds, uh, a hardware company to build think SGI, but like whatever, 50, 10, 50 years earlier, whatever's the, whatever's the timeframe, 10, let's call it 10 years earlier. Um, yeah. And so they weren't that successful. Um, you know, they sold to a bunch of, um, a bunch of, uh, television and video things, you know, one could make up lots of things.

So he, he, uh, founds, uh, a hardware company to build think SGI, but like whatever, 50, 10, 50 years earlier, whatever's the, whatever's the timeframe, 10, let's call it 10 years earlier. Um, yeah. And so they weren't that successful. Um, you know, they sold to a bunch of, um, a bunch of, uh, television and video things, you know, one could make up lots of things.

And there are a number of them, and I know a number of them. For the most part, they didn't start coming here just to make bank, right? They came here to do things that they cared about. And oh, by the way, those things that they cared about, turns out that millions and billions of other people cared about, and therefore we went from there.

And there are a number of them, and I know a number of them. For the most part, they didn't start coming here just to make bank, right? They came here to do things that they cared about. And oh, by the way, those things that they cared about, turns out that millions and billions of other people cared about, and therefore we went from there.

I mean, arguably it was too early, um, but also arguably, and this is true.

I mean, arguably it was too early, um, but also arguably, and this is true.

Yes. Yes. He, there was a VC called seven Rosen. Uh, that was the main, um, investor. Actually his, my stepmother is the niece of one of his investors. Um,

Yes. Yes. He, there was a VC called seven Rosen. Uh, that was the main, um, investor. Actually his, my stepmother is the niece of one of his investors. Um,

They were separated in like 73, 76, somewhere there. And then he remarried in 1990. And he married the niece of one of his investors.

They were separated in like 73, 76, somewhere there. And then he remarried in 1990. And he married the niece of one of his investors.

Roizen, R-O-I-Z-E-N is his last name. He was also an investor and had his offices at the Oak Grove Apartments just north of Stanford University where a bunch of my friends lived after college. But I remember going as a kid and they were doing some deal and they gave me a Coke and I sat in a room for a couple hours while they were negotiating.

Roizen, R-O-I-Z-E-N is his last name. He was also an investor and had his offices at the Oak Grove Apartments just north of Stanford University where a bunch of my friends lived after college. But I remember going as a kid and they were doing some deal and they gave me a Coke and I sat in a room for a couple hours while they were negotiating.

Yeah, I, you know, I wanted to draw some spaceships or make some forts and instead I had to, actually they, I remember it was quite embarrassing because I must have been a little bit young. They had a videotape of What were the early Saturday Night Live people?

Yeah, I, you know, I wanted to draw some spaceships or make some forts and instead I had to, actually they, I remember it was quite embarrassing because I must have been a little bit young. They had a videotape of What were the early Saturday Night Live people?

Jane Curtin and a few other Saturday Night Live people did like a comedy album that they called or where there was a song that was like, let's talk dirty to the animals. And I remember feeling like I was super embarrassed. Like, oh, they were using all these swear words and stuff.

Jane Curtin and a few other Saturday Night Live people did like a comedy album that they called or where there was a song that was like, let's talk dirty to the animals. And I remember feeling like I was super embarrassed. Like, oh, they were using all these swear words and stuff.

Yeah, I mean, look, he gave it a good run. And there were other companies that were doing similar things around that time. I mean, so there was a real need, right, for computer graphics. He wasn't doing animation systems like Pixar did for their first decade. But graphics systems, like think for... I think for like television weather graphics, that type of stuff.

Yeah, I mean, look, he gave it a good run. And there were other companies that were doing similar things around that time. I mean, so there was a real need, right, for computer graphics. He wasn't doing animation systems like Pixar did for their first decade. But graphics systems, like think for... I think for like television weather graphics, that type of stuff.

But I do get my backup, yeah, with this implication that, oh, everybody in Silicon Valley is an Elon Musk or a Peter Thiel. That's right.

But I do get my backup, yeah, with this implication that, oh, everybody in Silicon Valley is an Elon Musk or a Peter Thiel. That's right.

Yeah, so I do remember a conversation at Intel my senior year of college where they were like, hey, do you want to come work for us? And I knew that I didn't, not because I wasn't having a good time, but because Intel's a hardware company and I wanted to do software. So I remember somebody saying, hey, could you go work for your dad's company? And it was like, that never occurred to me.

Yeah, so I do remember a conversation at Intel my senior year of college where they were like, hey, do you want to come work for us? And I knew that I didn't, not because I wasn't having a good time, but because Intel's a hardware company and I wanted to do software. So I remember somebody saying, hey, could you go work for your dad's company? And it was like, that never occurred to me.

And like, probably not. He's a little fancy.

And like, probably not. He's a little fancy.

um you know so uh yeah but but that means that in 1990 that that was a possibility so he was or still must have been um going then but it wouldn't have been going for that much longer um yeah because again he joined he was at interval research which is paul allen's attempt to recreate park kitty corner from park um he was there for the full five years so i think that was uh 91 to 95 something like that

um you know so uh yeah but but that means that in 1990 that that was a possibility so he was or still must have been um going then but it wouldn't have been going for that much longer um yeah because again he joined he was at interval research which is paul allen's attempt to recreate park kitty corner from park um he was there for the full five years so i think that was uh 91 to 95 something like that

Is that, and that's fair. Look, you know, I, I think all of us, you know, are obviously influenced by our parents, but you know, there are only some of us that are like, clones, you know? And so, yeah, I mean, he wasn't, I mean, he would say, if he were around to say it, he would say he was never very interested at all in management or in

Is that, and that's fair. Look, you know, I, I think all of us, you know, are obviously influenced by our parents, but you know, there are only some of us that are like, clones, you know? And so, yeah, I mean, he wasn't, I mean, he would say, if he were around to say it, he would say he was never very interested at all in management or in

team dynamics that were anything other than getting stuff done if that makes any sense like he's mostly alone alone i mean he was a lone wolf you know and not he made great friends with people so i don't want to give that wrong impression but like he was not the team built he was like a crotchety you know crusty as alvy said guy that he is pretty damn smart and like he knew he could just do it all himself and was very happy doing it that

team dynamics that were anything other than getting stuff done if that makes any sense like he's mostly alone alone i mean he was a lone wolf you know and not he made great friends with people so i don't want to give that wrong impression but like he was not the team built he was like a crotchety you know crusty as alvy said guy that he is pretty damn smart and like he knew he could just do it all himself and was very happy doing it that

i mean he i mean he's the lone inventor and i don't mean that pejoratively i mean yeah yeah exactly yeah that's a very well good very good way to say it yeah and he was always very um very much about ideas if that makes any sense so he was not the hardware tinkerer as much as he was the great idea philosopher so much later in life he was always interested in like

i mean he i mean he's the lone inventor and i don't mean that pejoratively i mean yeah yeah exactly yeah that's a very well good very good way to say it yeah and he was always very um very much about ideas if that makes any sense so he was not the hardware tinkerer as much as he was the great idea philosopher so much later in life he was always interested in like

physics and quantum mechanics, and he had some really interesting... Actually, on YouTube, you can look for them. He had a bunch of interesting lectures where he was trying to come up with and doing a lot of good stuff around scientific explanations for various, like, psi phenomena, you know? So he believed that he believed in parapsychological phenomena.

physics and quantum mechanics, and he had some really interesting... Actually, on YouTube, you can look for them. He had a bunch of interesting lectures where he was trying to come up with and doing a lot of good stuff around scientific explanations for various, like, psi phenomena, you know? So he believed that he believed in parapsychological phenomena.

He believed that many of those things happened, like not a bunch of them were hoaxes and whatever, but he said not all of them. And he believed there's no magic. There's no sneaky, whatever. It's just, we just don't understand the physics. And I don't think I can fully do it in 30 seconds, but he had an explanation of entanglement in quantum mechanics and,

He believed that many of those things happened, like not a bunch of them were hoaxes and whatever, but he said not all of them. And he believed there's no magic. There's no sneaky, whatever. It's just, we just don't understand the physics. And I don't think I can fully do it in 30 seconds, but he had an explanation of entanglement in quantum mechanics and,

where things could flow both forward and backward. Causality flows both forward and backward, and it's pretty tight. And he never fully explored it in the last years of his life, unfortunately, but he was always intending to write a book about that. Interesting.

where things could flow both forward and backward. Causality flows both forward and backward, and it's pretty tight. And he never fully explored it in the last years of his life, unfortunately, but he was always intending to write a book about that. Interesting.

Anyway, so just briefly, spooky action at a distance, he's like, that's bullshit. But what it is is when there's the collapse of the wave function... It travels back in time in the sense that that collapse forces a particular thing that was always true in the entangled particles. I don't think I'm probably not doing it justice, but anyway, neither here nor there.

Anyway, so just briefly, spooky action at a distance, he's like, that's bullshit. But what it is is when there's the collapse of the wave function... It travels back in time in the sense that that collapse forces a particular thing that was always true in the entangled particles. I don't think I'm probably not doing it justice, but anyway, neither here nor there.

I mean, probably in ways that I'm not aware of, if that makes sense. He was always very good at understanding things very deeply and then therefore explaining things very clearly. And I think that is a trait that I

I mean, probably in ways that I'm not aware of, if that makes sense. He was always very good at understanding things very deeply and then therefore explaining things very clearly. And I think that is a trait that I

have and i think is you know not a little bit due to him um yeah i don't know he personally he kept i'm not sure how to say this he kept his work life private so it's not like he came home yeah in contrast to other people in my family over the years where um you know, they come home and they talk about work and they tell work stories and so on. You know what I mean?

have and i think is you know not a little bit due to him um yeah i don't know he personally he kept i'm not sure how to say this he kept his work life private so it's not like he came home yeah in contrast to other people in my family over the years where um you know, they come home and they talk about work and they tell work stories and so on. You know what I mean?

And he was, he was like for him, it was, maybe it's the loan. I mean, now that we're talking about the lone wolf, lone, lone inventor, like, yeah, it was all in his, all in his head. If that makes any sense.

And he was, he was like for him, it was, maybe it's the loan. I mean, now that we're talking about the lone wolf, lone, lone inventor, like, yeah, it was all in his, all in his head. If that makes any sense.

Exactly. Dad, how was your day at work? What happened? Yeah, I'm not falling for that shit.

Exactly. Dad, how was your day at work? What happened? Yeah, I'm not falling for that shit.

I'll give a broader answer because it's a more general question, but the other one that isn't as well-known as Dealers of Lightning is called Valley of Genius. That's excellent. That's Adam Fisher. It's a format that I've never seen done before or since, but it's wonderful. He interviewed all these people including my dad and Zuckerberg and Jobs and all these people, Gates.

I'll give a broader answer because it's a more general question, but the other one that isn't as well-known as Dealers of Lightning is called Valley of Genius. That's excellent. That's Adam Fisher. It's a format that I've never seen done before or since, but it's wonderful. He interviewed all these people including my dad and Zuckerberg and Jobs and all these people, Gates.

And the book is as if they were having conversations with themselves using quotes that he got from direct conversations with them. So there is no text in there from him beyond whatever the foreword. It is only Dick Schaub says dot, dot, dot. Alvy Ray Smith says so, so, so. Bill Gates says such and such and such.

And the book is as if they were having conversations with themselves using quotes that he got from direct conversations with them. So there is no text in there from him beyond whatever the foreword. It is only Dick Schaub says dot, dot, dot. Alvy Ray Smith says so, so, so. Bill Gates says such and such and such.

And the individual chapters are all themed, like, you know, one about whatever the internet and one about graphics and so on and various other things. And it's just a very, it really flows very nicely. And it's as if these people are all in some, you know, swan talking to each other, right? Like intellectual salon.

And the individual chapters are all themed, like, you know, one about whatever the internet and one about graphics and so on and various other things. And it's just a very, it really flows very nicely. And it's as if these people are all in some, you know, swan talking to each other, right? Like intellectual salon.

Yeah. But, right? So, yeah, that's a good one. Let's see. Learning-wise, must-read books. Well, it depends on what you're going for. I think you cannot go wrong with Accelerate. So that's Nicole Forsgren, Jez Humble, James Kim on basically how to do... modern software correctly. And for fun, I like Gene Kim's Phoenix Project and Unicorn Project.

Yeah. But, right? So, yeah, that's a good one. Let's see. Learning-wise, must-read books. Well, it depends on what you're going for. I think you cannot go wrong with Accelerate. So that's Nicole Forsgren, Jez Humble, James Kim on basically how to do... modern software correctly. And for fun, I like Gene Kim's Phoenix Project and Unicorn Project.

Those are novels about IT, which I would, even though I love Gene and he's a great friend, I would have thought, there's no way you can make our job interesting. But they're page turners. I do want to find out how Bill doesn't lose his job and blah, blah, blah, and whatever, Parts Unlimited or whatever it is. You are a huge Phoenix Project fan.

Those are novels about IT, which I would, even though I love Gene and he's a great friend, I would have thought, there's no way you can make our job interesting. But they're page turners. I do want to find out how Bill doesn't lose his job and blah, blah, blah, and whatever, Parts Unlimited or whatever it is. You are a huge Phoenix Project fan.

Oh, you mean you submitted a PR? Yeah, good.

Oh, you mean you submitted a PR? Yeah, good.

Yeah. I will very briefly... So the question from Blacksmith for Life is, must read books for individual contributors. And so, super quickly... Michael Feathers, Working Effectively with Legacy Code. Have to read that one. If you have not read, obviously, Refactoring by Martin Fowler, you have to read that. I really liked Chris Richardson's Microservices Patterns, actually.

Yeah. I will very briefly... So the question from Blacksmith for Life is, must read books for individual contributors. And so, super quickly... Michael Feathers, Working Effectively with Legacy Code. Have to read that one. If you have not read, obviously, Refactoring by Martin Fowler, you have to read that. I really liked Chris Richardson's Microservices Patterns, actually.

That's actually quite good.

That's actually quite good.

Well, I mean, at eBay and Google, they were never gone. There you go. But yeah, look, I mean, we can have a whole podcast and I have done podcasts on when and when not to use microservices. Do we live in an industry that is fad driven and do lots of times people oppy things they shouldn't? Oh, yeah. Absolutely not. Does that mean that those things are wrong and broken for everybody? No.

Well, I mean, at eBay and Google, they were never gone. There you go. But yeah, look, I mean, we can have a whole podcast and I have done podcasts on when and when not to use microservices. Do we live in an industry that is fad driven and do lots of times people oppy things they shouldn't? Oh, yeah. Absolutely not. Does that mean that those things are wrong and broken for everybody? No.

I've been trying to come up with analogies and metaphors for these for a while, and I put this one on LinkedIn a little while ago. Something like, A fleet of buses. No one could possibly ever need a fleet of buses. All you need is one stupid little car. And if your mental model is it's a single family, well, yeah, you just need a car.

I've been trying to come up with analogies and metaphors for these for a while, and I put this one on LinkedIn a little while ago. Something like, A fleet of buses. No one could possibly ever need a fleet of buses. All you need is one stupid little car. And if your mental model is it's a single family, well, yeah, you just need a car.

But if your mental model is you're a municipality, then you need a fleet of buses. And it's not right. One is appropriate for the one and the other is appropriate for the other. And, you know, that's not weird.

But if your mental model is you're a municipality, then you need a fleet of buses. And it's not right. One is appropriate for the one and the other is appropriate for the other. And, you know, that's not weird.

Oh, wow. I have so many thoughts, and I hope I can get them all. Okay. Return to Office is the Roman Empire on its downfall.

Oh, wow. I have so many thoughts, and I hope I can get them all. Okay. Return to Office is the Roman Empire on its downfall.

those folks. It's like Amazon. It's like shooting yourself in the foot, and I don't know how you... So Walmart, too. I will say without divulging any specific names that people are rushing for the exits, and people are very happy to consider working for the entirely remote Thrive Market, where I currently head engineering, that work at companies that are doing RTOs right now.

those folks. It's like Amazon. It's like shooting yourself in the foot, and I don't know how you... So Walmart, too. I will say without divulging any specific names that people are rushing for the exits, and people are very happy to consider working for the entirely remote Thrive Market, where I currently head engineering, that work at companies that are doing RTOs right now.

Whether that's the intention or not, and I'm equally as conspiracy-minded or pragmatic, depending on my mood, uh, as you are Brian in, in that episode. But, um, but yeah, no, I think it's, I think it's, it's gonna, it's a, it's gonna force a brain drain no matter what. So how do, what do I, uh, so yes, we now live in a world where anybody can work anywhere and do things.

Whether that's the intention or not, and I'm equally as conspiracy-minded or pragmatic, depending on my mood, uh, as you are Brian in, in that episode. But, um, but yeah, no, I think it's, I think it's, it's gonna, it's a, it's gonna force a brain drain no matter what. So how do, what do I, uh, so yes, we now live in a world where anybody can work anywhere and do things.

And this concept that, and also so many things to think. Uh, so the, I love and have for 10 years working remotely, uh,

And this concept that, and also so many things to think. Uh, so the, I love and have for 10 years working remotely, uh,

And also, if I don't get together in person with my team at least once a quarter, you know, being respectful of people's family time and so on, but I would prefer a little bit more often, then we lose trust and we lose the, you know, the sort of not really collaborative opportunities, because I agree that, you know, lots of people can have ideas whether we're over video or not, but just...

And also, if I don't get together in person with my team at least once a quarter, you know, being respectful of people's family time and so on, but I would prefer a little bit more often, then we lose trust and we lose the, you know, the sort of not really collaborative opportunities, because I agree that, you know, lots of people can have ideas whether we're over video or not, but just...

There's nothing quite like being in person.

There's nothing quite like being in person.

And in fact, on that score, I think I do not divulge any secrets when I say the reason that we are having this podcast today, Brian, is because you and I were in person. You're laughing. You and I were in person on Wednesday at the San Francisco CTO Club, and we started having a chat about other random things, how much I enjoyed the podcast. And... Hence, we're here.

And in fact, on that score, I think I do not divulge any secrets when I say the reason that we are having this podcast today, Brian, is because you and I were in person. You're laughing. You and I were in person on Wednesday at the San Francisco CTO Club, and we started having a chat about other random things, how much I enjoyed the podcast. And... Hence, we're here.

So there is, you know, is it true that only the only place to do creative ideas between people is in person? Like, no, that's crazy. It's crazy thought, crazy talk. And also, the optimal situation, I'm not going to call it hybrid, because that has another meaning. But the optimal, like, the peak of it, or, you know, the efficient frontier, whatever, is mostly is remote.

So there is, you know, is it true that only the only place to do creative ideas between people is in person? Like, no, that's crazy. It's crazy thought, crazy talk. And also, the optimal situation, I'm not going to call it hybrid, because that has another meaning. But the optimal, like, the peak of it, or, you know, the efficient frontier, whatever, is mostly is remote.

most of the time and then get together every so often. And that's how we do it.

most of the time and then get together every so often. And that's how we do it.

I do not have the best perspective, but I do have a unique perspective. So I'll happily... I think that's right.

I do not have the best perspective, but I do have a unique perspective. So I'll happily... I think that's right.

And I hope it does. I mean, honestly, like I say, I love the fact that The world has come to me. And also, I don't want this spa for the entire world. I'd love for a little bit less traffic on the 280. So I would love for it to be. And the other point I wanted to make about return to office is people have said out loud that, oh, good software cannot be built except by being in person.

And I hope it does. I mean, honestly, like I say, I love the fact that The world has come to me. And also, I don't want this spa for the entire world. I'd love for a little bit less traffic on the 280. So I would love for it to be. And the other point I wanted to make about return to office is people have said out loud that, oh, good software cannot be built except by being in person.

And I'm like, do you use any open source at all?

And I'm like, do you use any open source at all?

Carnegie Institute of Technology. Yeah. Everybody abbreviated to Carnegie Tech.

Carnegie Institute of Technology. Yeah. Everybody abbreviated to Carnegie Tech.

Yeah, thanks for saying that, Brian. I mean, obviously, he's always been inspiring to me. And I think... Well, given his lifelong interest in Psy and occult phenomena, he would want to believe that he's there partly experiencing the conversation. That's awesome.

Yeah, thanks for saying that, Brian. I mean, obviously, he's always been inspiring to me. And I think... Well, given his lifelong interest in Psy and occult phenomena, he would want to believe that he's there partly experiencing the conversation. That's awesome.

So yeah, I think in any event, completely rationally, he would have liked to have known that this conversation happened, if that makes any sense, and would have been happy about it.

So yeah, I think in any event, completely rationally, he would have liked to have known that this conversation happened, if that makes any sense, and would have been happy about it.

Indeed, you're a third generation now.

Indeed, you're a third generation now.

Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah. So both my parents grew up in Western Pennsylvania around Pittsburgh and And they met at what was then Carnegie Tech and now Carnegie Mellon University. My dad earned his undergrad in EE in 65 and then got his PhD in computer science in 1970.

Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah. So both my parents grew up in Western Pennsylvania around Pittsburgh and And they met at what was then Carnegie Tech and now Carnegie Mellon University. My dad earned his undergrad in EE in 65 and then got his PhD in computer science in 1970.

Yeah. I believe that it might be the first computer science PhD program in the U.S., Yeah, which might mean in the world. Yeah. So his his his application to join the Ph.D. program was his his professor, Gordon Bell, saying, hey, Dick, I'm starting up a computer computer science lab. Would you like to join it? And my dad saying, yes. So, you know, that was pretty cool.

Yeah. I believe that it might be the first computer science PhD program in the U.S., Yeah, which might mean in the world. Yeah. So his his his application to join the Ph.D. program was his his professor, Gordon Bell, saying, hey, Dick, I'm starting up a computer computer science lab. Would you like to join it? And my dad saying, yes. So, you know, that was pretty cool.

I mean, he's another generation.

I mean, he's another generation.

Yeah. So I was a year and a half. So I was born in Pittsburgh, like I said, Shadyside Hospital right outside Carnegie. And then we moved out when I was one and a half, 1970. So he's got, you know, freshly minted Ph.D. We'll talk a little bit about what it's in or I'll just mention his Ph.D. proposed FPGAs.

Yeah. So I was a year and a half. So I was born in Pittsburgh, like I said, Shadyside Hospital right outside Carnegie. And then we moved out when I was one and a half, 1970. So he's got, you know, freshly minted Ph.D. We'll talk a little bit about what it's in or I'll just mention his Ph.D. proposed FPGAs.

I actually was just looking around in my little archives, which is a shelf on my bookshelf. And I have an actual print copy of his PhD that was typed by my mom.

I actually was just looking around in my little archives, which is a shelf on my bookshelf. And I have an actual print copy of his PhD that was typed by my mom.

Yeah, which is pretty cool. I mean, it's a photocopy of it because the original is obviously in the CMU archives or whatever. What an heirloom, you know, to have.

Yeah, which is pretty cool. I mean, it's a photocopy of it because the original is obviously in the CMU archives or whatever. What an heirloom, you know, to have.

Yeah, so he proposed, I forget exactly what he called it, reconfigurable cellular logic. I think that might have been the title, something like that. Didn't use the term FPGA that came later, but it's exactly that idea. It's, you know, Earlier, you know, all computing was von Neumann architecture, so separate, you know, the data from the processing.

Yeah, so he proposed, I forget exactly what he called it, reconfigurable cellular logic. I think that might have been the title, something like that. Didn't use the term FPGA that came later, but it's exactly that idea. It's, you know, Earlier, you know, all computing was von Neumann architecture, so separate, you know, the data from the processing.

And this was, hey, what if we took the silicon and, like, made it super generic? And, you know, reconfigured it on the fly, essentially. And it's only relatively recently, like... So, again, this PhD is 1970. It's only relatively recently. Let's call it 20... 2000s, maybe, but certainly 2010s, where that has become somewhat mainstream. I think there's an Amazon FPGA service.

And this was, hey, what if we took the silicon and, like, made it super generic? And, you know, reconfigured it on the fly, essentially. And it's only relatively recently, like... So, again, this PhD is 1970. It's only relatively recently. Let's call it 20... 2000s, maybe, but certainly 2010s, where that has become somewhat mainstream. I think there's an Amazon FPGA service.

And then Microsoft on Bing had a project that they called Catapult, which was pairing FPGAs to do the ranking function right next to CPUs essentially, you know, that computed all the search stuff. So anybody who's super interested in that should Google Catapult.

And then Microsoft on Bing had a project that they called Catapult, which was pairing FPGAs to do the ranking function right next to CPUs essentially, you know, that computed all the search stuff. So anybody who's super interested in that should Google Catapult.

Anyway, but like relatively niche, you know, from that perspective, you know, in the broader ecosystem, obviously what you guys would know about and what my dad was originally envisioning was testing new silicon, right? So like, hey, let's build the generic silicon, right? And then use that to refine techniques and ideas and then kind of reify those, if that makes any sense.

Anyway, but like relatively niche, you know, from that perspective, you know, in the broader ecosystem, obviously what you guys would know about and what my dad was originally envisioning was testing new silicon, right? So like, hey, let's build the generic silicon, right? And then use that to refine techniques and ideas and then kind of reify those, if that makes any sense.

So if you, if you track the graph of the papers about FPGAs all the way back, like they sort of terminate or begin at, uh, at this PhD thesis, I know he passed a number of years ago.

So if you, if you track the graph of the papers about FPGAs all the way back, like they sort of terminate or begin at, uh, at this PhD thesis, I know he passed a number of years ago.