Sarah Haider

Anytime we found ourselves getting too close to a prescriptive discussion, and that was often something that I fell into. I can't help it. I'm an activist. So I always seek, okay, here's this problem that we're having. What's the solution? Here's the solution. So people should do X. And I would voice it. I would voice how I felt about it. And that would lead to trouble.

Anytime we found ourselves getting too close to a prescriptive discussion, and that was often something that I fell into. I can't help it. I'm an activist. So I always seek, okay, here's this problem that we're having. What's the solution? Here's the solution. So people should do X. And I would voice it. I would voice how I felt about it. And that would lead to trouble.

I think there was a discussion on divorce that I regretted for such reasons, for these reasons that we've been discussing. I think the lead off to our discussion in that episode might have been this piece that was published by British Phetasy about her experience growing up in a divorced home. I think it was she and her brother that were growing up as children in a divorced family.

I think there was a discussion on divorce that I regretted for such reasons, for these reasons that we've been discussing. I think the lead off to our discussion in that episode might have been this piece that was published by British Phetasy about her experience growing up in a divorced home. I think it was she and her brother that were growing up as children in a divorced family.

And she talked about how they had no attention from either of their parents who were very involved in their new lives that they were trying to build. I think she described herself as kind of a feral child, but just that they were just off on their own. without a lot of parental supervision, and that led her into a lot of trouble.

And she talked about how they had no attention from either of their parents who were very involved in their new lives that they were trying to build. I think she described herself as kind of a feral child, but just that they were just off on their own. without a lot of parental supervision, and that led her into a lot of trouble.

You know, drugs, not paying attention much to school, that kind of thing. And then there were, you know, some other people agreeing with her, talking about their stories in a similar environment. And so that led to a broader discussion of divorce and our conception of marriage. And that whole saying, stay together for the kids, that has been, for very good reasons...

You know, drugs, not paying attention much to school, that kind of thing. And then there were, you know, some other people agreeing with her, talking about their stories in a similar environment. And so that led to a broader discussion of divorce and our conception of marriage. And that whole saying, stay together for the kids, that has been, for very good reasons...

not something that we recommend so much anymore and we push back on. But our kind of spice it'll take was maybe there is like a logic to it that is pretty important because these are young people.

not something that we recommend so much anymore and we push back on. But our kind of spice it'll take was maybe there is like a logic to it that is pretty important because these are young people.

And people were very upset. Yeah. Yeah, that is what I was saying. That is what I was saying. And I recognized as I was saying it that there are going to be a lot of people very mad at me. And I get it. I get why they're mad. Because here's a stranger who knows nothing about their particular circumstances.

And people were very upset. Yeah. Yeah, that is what I was saying. That is what I was saying. And I recognized as I was saying it that there are going to be a lot of people very mad at me. And I get it. I get why they're mad. Because here's a stranger who knows nothing about their particular circumstances.

I can't possibly know the details, the nuances of their challenges and why they made the particular decision that they made. And yet I am giving this... kind of a broad prescriptive opinion.

I can't possibly know the details, the nuances of their challenges and why they made the particular decision that they made. And yet I am giving this... kind of a broad prescriptive opinion.

It's hard not to have that feeling of frustration at being misunderstood, but it's just, it feels so personal because I'm talking about personal things. I'm making recommendations about how people should live their lives, their real life. I'm not making a political comment. I'm making a very personal comment. And it understandably leads to very personal exchanges afterwards.

It's hard not to have that feeling of frustration at being misunderstood, but it's just, it feels so personal because I'm talking about personal things. I'm making recommendations about how people should live their lives, their real life. I'm not making a political comment. I'm making a very personal comment. And it understandably leads to very personal exchanges afterwards.

And when I get blowback, it tends to be very personal too. And I think partially because it was a conversation that I was having. It was my voice. We released videos of it, so there was videos of me out there too. It felt like it was a lot more of a personal capture of who I actually am that they were reacting to. And I think that might have been why it was a little bit harder to shake off.

And when I get blowback, it tends to be very personal too. And I think partially because it was a conversation that I was having. It was my voice. We released videos of it, so there was videos of me out there too. It felt like it was a lot more of a personal capture of who I actually am that they were reacting to. And I think that might have been why it was a little bit harder to shake off.

Um... I'm not one of those people who does drugs recreationally very much. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Not that I'm judging. Not that I'm saying you shouldn't do it if you want to. But it's just never really appealed to me too much.

Um... I'm not one of those people who does drugs recreationally very much. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Not that I'm judging. Not that I'm saying you shouldn't do it if you want to. But it's just never really appealed to me too much.

I drink socially. There were times in my life where I drank a little bit more when I was in my early 20s and going out a lot. I usually don't do marijuana. It has this paradoxical reaction with me. It makes me more nauseous rather than less nauseous. So it's just not that pleasant of an experience.

I drink socially. There were times in my life where I drank a little bit more when I was in my early 20s and going out a lot. I usually don't do marijuana. It has this paradoxical reaction with me. It makes me more nauseous rather than less nauseous. So it's just not that pleasant of an experience.

I tried magic mushrooms in college, but it was a very small amount and it didn't affect me very much. That's the totality of my drug experience.

I tried magic mushrooms in college, but it was a very small amount and it didn't affect me very much. That's the totality of my drug experience.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I remember. There were conversations happening mostly on Twitter, on some other places as well, on my private chats with people. But there were some conversations happening about specifically ayahuasca as something that could one-shot people. Have you ever heard of this phrase?

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I remember. There were conversations happening mostly on Twitter, on some other places as well, on my private chats with people. But there were some conversations happening about specifically ayahuasca as something that could one-shot people. Have you ever heard of this phrase?

That is what it's referring to. So ayahuasca evidently is so powerful, such a strong drug that you can one-shot yourself. You can take it once and then... lose the mind that you had previously entirely, or you can lose your ambition for whatever it is, whatever passion project that you pursued up until this point, you could decide to leave your life behind and go braid hair in Peru.

That is what it's referring to. So ayahuasca evidently is so powerful, such a strong drug that you can one-shot yourself. You can take it once and then... lose the mind that you had previously entirely, or you can lose your ambition for whatever it is, whatever passion project that you pursued up until this point, you could decide to leave your life behind and go braid hair in Peru.

Yeah, I was seeing that discourse. I was seeing many people react to others around them having taken it and being alarmed by the extent of the changes they began to make in their life. So to me, it's strange because I was seeing a lot of evidence that this is possibly too dangerous of a thing to try. And I'm thinking, okay, then maybe it's worth doing.

Yeah, I was seeing that discourse. I was seeing many people react to others around them having taken it and being alarmed by the extent of the changes they began to make in their life. So to me, it's strange because I was seeing a lot of evidence that this is possibly too dangerous of a thing to try. And I'm thinking, okay, then maybe it's worth doing.

So I'm going to try and just anonymize it, just a reasonable degree. But it was through a friend of a friend I found a connection to a ceremony. Now, you can find ceremonies online. There's these retreat centers that are primarily housed in Peru.

So I'm going to try and just anonymize it, just a reasonable degree. But it was through a friend of a friend I found a connection to a ceremony. Now, you can find ceremonies online. There's these retreat centers that are primarily housed in Peru.

Yeah, it's legal in Peru. It's legal in, I think, a few other places under certain circumstances. So you can go and have like a 10-day retreat in Peru or a seven-day retreat. You purchase your ticket and you go there and go to the middle of the jungle, I presume, with a bunch of strangers. I found that concept to be very alarming.

Yeah, it's legal in Peru. It's legal in, I think, a few other places under certain circumstances. So you can go and have like a 10-day retreat in Peru or a seven-day retreat. You purchase your ticket and you go there and go to the middle of the jungle, I presume, with a bunch of strangers. I found that concept to be very alarming.

I was always just afraid that I would end up in the hospital somehow. And then now I'm in a Peruvian hospital with no way to contact my family or limited ways of contacting my family. So that was kind of a nightmare scenario that I did not want to live in this life.

I was always just afraid that I would end up in the hospital somehow. And then now I'm in a Peruvian hospital with no way to contact my family or limited ways of contacting my family. So that was kind of a nightmare scenario that I did not want to live in this life.

So I asked around if anybody had a connection and it just so happened that somebody brought it up without me bringing it up first at a dinner party. She and I were talking about autism. I was talking about how I think I'm a little bit on the spectrum and she said she's definitely on the spectrum and she is.

So I asked around if anybody had a connection and it just so happened that somebody brought it up without me bringing it up first at a dinner party. She and I were talking about autism. I was talking about how I think I'm a little bit on the spectrum and she said she's definitely on the spectrum and she is.

And she said that she recently did ayahuasca, went to a retreat, and it helped her connect with others, like normies, helped her connect with normies better. And I thought that was really interesting. And that opened up a new way of thinking about it for me as well.

And she said that she recently did ayahuasca, went to a retreat, and it helped her connect with others, like normies, helped her connect with normies better. And I thought that was really interesting. And that opened up a new way of thinking about it for me as well.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then did you say to them, oh, can you just, like, put me in touch with... Yeah, I said, can you let me know if there's a retreat that you can... get me in touch with. It's kind of a shady thing to do. I mean, not just because it's highly illegal, but also because you don't know these people. And this is an incredibly powerful substance.

And then did you say to them, oh, can you just, like, put me in touch with... Yeah, I said, can you let me know if there's a retreat that you can... get me in touch with. It's kind of a shady thing to do. I mean, not just because it's highly illegal, but also because you don't know these people. And this is an incredibly powerful substance.

So you're in this like very vulnerable state for five hours, six hours for every ceremony. And you might have more than one. In my retreat, there were three, but sometimes people have like five ceremonies throughout the course of their retreat. And And it's fascinating because every day you're a little bit more sensitized to the substance.

So you're in this like very vulnerable state for five hours, six hours for every ceremony. And you might have more than one. In my retreat, there were three, but sometimes people have like five ceremonies throughout the course of their retreat. And And it's fascinating because every day you're a little bit more sensitized to the substance.

You are on a special diet with ayahuasca because evidently there are certain foods that can interact in a not pleasant way with the compounds in the brew itself. You're kept on this kind of very restricted diet. It really feels like you're not eating very much. You're not supposed to eat past a certain part of the day because ayahuasca makes you incredibly nauseous.

You are on a special diet with ayahuasca because evidently there are certain foods that can interact in a not pleasant way with the compounds in the brew itself. You're kept on this kind of very restricted diet. It really feels like you're not eating very much. You're not supposed to eat past a certain part of the day because ayahuasca makes you incredibly nauseous.

Many people purge, you know, what they call purging, but it's really you're just vomiting a lot. You're using the restroom a lot. So it's better if you don't eat too much. or eat it all actually after 1 p.m., 2 p.m. for a nighttime ceremony. So you're going through this day after day.

Many people purge, you know, what they call purging, but it's really you're just vomiting a lot. You're using the restroom a lot. So it's better if you don't eat too much. or eat it all actually after 1 p.m., 2 p.m. for a nighttime ceremony. So you're going through this day after day.

You're in this environment that sensitizes you to the drug more and more as each day passes because you're on this restricted diet. You're not sleeping very much. You hallucinate five to six hours each time. And so every next day is a more powerful experience.

You're in this environment that sensitizes you to the drug more and more as each day passes because you're on this restricted diet. You're not sleeping very much. You hallucinate five to six hours each time. And so every next day is a more powerful experience.

So it's interesting because they talk about set and setting so much, and I try to prepare myself as much as possible for this experience. And the setting is very interesting with ayahuasca because it is approached very much with this kind of spiritual, shamanistic approach. really religious. It's a kind of a religious context. You have somebody there who is kind of like a shaman.

So it's interesting because they talk about set and setting so much, and I try to prepare myself as much as possible for this experience. And the setting is very interesting with ayahuasca because it is approached very much with this kind of spiritual, shamanistic approach. really religious. It's a kind of a religious context. You have somebody there who is kind of like a shaman.

I don't know if there's like a more official word for it, but... I think sometimes they're called ayahuasqueros. That's not what the lady called herself. She called herself something else. I forget. What did she call herself? I forget exactly what she called herself, but I mean, I just knew her name. I called her by her name.

I don't know if there's like a more official word for it, but... I think sometimes they're called ayahuasqueros. That's not what the lady called herself. She called herself something else. I forget. What did she call herself? I forget exactly what she called herself, but I mean, I just knew her name. I called her by her name.

She was somebody who was educated on the medicine, which is what you call it. You call it the medicine, not a drug. She was educated on it. She's grown up with it. There are tribes in various parts of South America that really, I mean, it's part of their routine ayahuasca ceremonies. And they start participating in these ceremonies since they're kids, which is really interesting.

She was somebody who was educated on the medicine, which is what you call it. You call it the medicine, not a drug. She was educated on it. She's grown up with it. There are tribes in various parts of South America that really, I mean, it's part of their routine ayahuasca ceremonies. And they start participating in these ceremonies since they're kids, which is really interesting.

It's interesting that they seem normal as They don't have a lot of anxiety. They just seem like normal, happy people, I guess. And yeah, so she was conducting the ceremony. She was also taking it with us, which I did not realize she would be doing. But she takes the plant. She offers you one cup and then you can take more as the night progresses.

It's interesting that they seem normal as They don't have a lot of anxiety. They just seem like normal, happy people, I guess. And yeah, so she was conducting the ceremony. She was also taking it with us, which I did not realize she would be doing. But she takes the plant. She offers you one cup and then you can take more as the night progresses.

She gave us two more opportunities to take more ayahuasca if we felt as if we weren't where we wanted to be that evening. Yeah. And there's this chanting going on in the background. It's incredibly dark. There are no lights on, just like a candle or two.

She gave us two more opportunities to take more ayahuasca if we felt as if we weren't where we wanted to be that evening. Yeah. And there's this chanting going on in the background. It's incredibly dark. There are no lights on, just like a candle or two.

So this environment was, if you can imagine being on any kind of psychedelic and being in that kind of environment, it could be maybe a little bit disturbing. In this case, it was like the most powerful, one of the most powerful psychedelics around.

So this environment was, if you can imagine being on any kind of psychedelic and being in that kind of environment, it could be maybe a little bit disturbing. In this case, it was like the most powerful, one of the most powerful psychedelics around.

Very anxious, yeah.

Very anxious, yeah.

I went into hell, I think. I don't know how else to describe it. It's hard to talk about this without sounding silly. You know, even to myself, I sound silly. It's like describing a dream. How do you do that without losing a little bit of your dignity?

I went into hell, I think. I don't know how else to describe it. It's hard to talk about this without sounding silly. You know, even to myself, I sound silly. It's like describing a dream. How do you do that without losing a little bit of your dignity?

Have you seen the show Stranger Things?

Have you seen the show Stranger Things?

You know, the upside down?

You know, the upside down?

So it was like our world, but it wasn't our world. It was our world, but had just a very nefarious smell about it. The hallucinogen was so powerful. I saw a lot when I closed my eyes, but I saw quite a bit when I opened my eyes as well. I had difficulty seeing faces. I couldn't see anybody's face, actually. When I started, if I would look at your face, I wouldn't be able to see it.

So it was like our world, but it wasn't our world. It was our world, but had just a very nefarious smell about it. The hallucinogen was so powerful. I saw a lot when I closed my eyes, but I saw quite a bit when I opened my eyes as well. I had difficulty seeing faces. I couldn't see anybody's face, actually. When I started, if I would look at your face, I wouldn't be able to see it.

I would see like two dark spots where your eyes are and everything else would be just wiped clean.

I would see like two dark spots where your eyes are and everything else would be just wiped clean.

A part of me was always lucid, was lucid throughout the whole thing. A part of me always knew that I had taken something. When I say lucid, though, lucid in the way that you're lucid in a lucid dream, which is not with your full capacities, but aware that something's happening. Aware that, yes, I've taken this. I've taken this drug, so what I'm seeing is probably a part of that drug.

A part of me was always lucid, was lucid throughout the whole thing. A part of me always knew that I had taken something. When I say lucid, though, lucid in the way that you're lucid in a lucid dream, which is not with your full capacities, but aware that something's happening. Aware that, yes, I've taken this. I've taken this drug, so what I'm seeing is probably a part of that drug.

So at no point did I feel as if this was real. I always thought I was having a hallucination.

So at no point did I feel as if this was real. I always thought I was having a hallucination.

It was very scary. It was very scary. And I was there for hours. And I remember looking around the room and being horrified by what I was seeing. The people in the room, the ones who gave me a bad vibe when I was sober, were monstrous on ayahuasca. There's something about people's, they give you a certain kind of feeling. It's not a big deal when you're sober.

It was very scary. It was very scary. And I was there for hours. And I remember looking around the room and being horrified by what I was seeing. The people in the room, the ones who gave me a bad vibe when I was sober, were monstrous on ayahuasca. There's something about people's, they give you a certain kind of feeling. It's not a big deal when you're sober.

When you're on psychedelics, vibes are important. And on ayahuasca, some people were monsters. It was as if they were monsters. And I didn't want to be anywhere near them or around them. And I would have to like turn away from them. At the time, in the deepest part of the trip, I remember thinking, I'm losing my mind and I'm incurring brain damage, like what must be brain damage.

When you're on psychedelics, vibes are important. And on ayahuasca, some people were monsters. It was as if they were monsters. And I didn't want to be anywhere near them or around them. And I would have to like turn away from them. At the time, in the deepest part of the trip, I remember thinking, I'm losing my mind and I'm incurring brain damage, like what must be brain damage.

and asking myself, why did I do this? Like, why did I do something that could really transform my mind, which is a good mind. It's served me well up until this point, so why would I play with such an important tool in my toolbox?

and asking myself, why did I do this? Like, why did I do something that could really transform my mind, which is a good mind. It's served me well up until this point, so why would I play with such an important tool in my toolbox?

You know, it's hard to describe. I don't think it was awful. It was terrifying, but then when I was done, I felt very good. Immediately after, like as the hallucinogen was wearing off, as it was coming off of the high, I had this moment where I felt that my brain was finally on again. But it was on in a different way. It was creative in a way that it never is.

You know, it's hard to describe. I don't think it was awful. It was terrifying, but then when I was done, I felt very good. Immediately after, like as the hallucinogen was wearing off, as it was coming off of the high, I had this moment where I felt that my brain was finally on again. But it was on in a different way. It was creative in a way that it never is.

I mean, it is, but not in a way I had ever experienced before. I was able to make all these rapid-fire connections that I had never seen. I think that's why people are referring to when they say that ayahuasca is like 10 years of therapy in a day. I think what it literally is doing to your brain is creating an environment for new pathways to form neurologically. And

I mean, it is, but not in a way I had ever experienced before. I was able to make all these rapid-fire connections that I had never seen. I think that's why people are referring to when they say that ayahuasca is like 10 years of therapy in a day. I think what it literally is doing to your brain is creating an environment for new pathways to form neurologically. And

For some people, that can feel like therapy because your ego is decreased, if not eliminated. And so you can come to conclusions that otherwise you might be too afraid to reach. You can see things that would scare you and make you feel bad about yourself. And you can see them more clearly and come to terms with them under the influence of the drug.

For some people, that can feel like therapy because your ego is decreased, if not eliminated. And so you can come to conclusions that otherwise you might be too afraid to reach. You can see things that would scare you and make you feel bad about yourself. And you can see them more clearly and come to terms with them under the influence of the drug.

I think that's why people feel so connected to it or people feel so driven to seek it despite the fact that it can be horrible. Because of this afterglow aspect of it, even when it is a bad trip, it can be useful.

I think that's why people feel so connected to it or people feel so driven to seek it despite the fact that it can be horrible. Because of this afterglow aspect of it, even when it is a bad trip, it can be useful.

No, no, no. Not at all. I wasn't thinking about work at all. I think it was just that I felt trapped in a lot of ways. I felt trapped intellectually. I felt nihilistic about the world around me. And the podcast had something to do with that. Not fully, but it played a part in that day after day, we would be staring into the abyss. We would be

No, no, no. Not at all. I wasn't thinking about work at all. I think it was just that I felt trapped in a lot of ways. I felt trapped intellectually. I felt nihilistic about the world around me. And the podcast had something to do with that. Not fully, but it played a part in that day after day, we would be staring into the abyss. We would be

reading these articles that were designed to make you a little mad because, of course, they want to provoke conversation. They want people to be a little bit riled up. And in paying attention to these things...

reading these articles that were designed to make you a little mad because, of course, they want to provoke conversation. They want people to be a little bit riled up. And in paying attention to these things...

as part of what we were doing, as part of our quote-unquote job, I was forced to stare at that abyss day after day and contemplate it deeply all the time, but not deep enough that I could do something about it, not deep enough that I could find a solution, just deep enough that it would unsettle me in some way.

as part of what we were doing, as part of our quote-unquote job, I was forced to stare at that abyss day after day and contemplate it deeply all the time, but not deep enough that I could do something about it, not deep enough that I could find a solution, just deep enough that it would unsettle me in some way.

significant way, and then we'd have to move on to the next topic, the next unsettling culture war discussion. So something about doing that, I think, over and over again, it was not a healthy practice, but it also led me to have a definitely not a very positive view on human nature, on our... culture as a whole, on our society.

significant way, and then we'd have to move on to the next topic, the next unsettling culture war discussion. So something about doing that, I think, over and over again, it was not a healthy practice, but it also led me to have a definitely not a very positive view on human nature, on our... culture as a whole, on our society.

And I didn't want to think like that because it's a really terrible way to think, not just because it feels bad while you're feeling all these negative feelings, but also because it takes away your drive to be that positive force in the world.

And I didn't want to think like that because it's a really terrible way to think, not just because it feels bad while you're feeling all these negative feelings, but also because it takes away your drive to be that positive force in the world.

I think the ayahuasca didn't really change the way that I felt about that. I think it made it impossible for me to pursue. You know, it almost said as if it took the option away from me.

I think the ayahuasca didn't really change the way that I felt about that. I think it made it impossible for me to pursue. You know, it almost said as if it took the option away from me.

It foregrounded it and it just, I couldn't get angry.

It foregrounded it and it just, I couldn't get angry.

For the first month afterwards, I found it impossible to be outraged. So I would log on. I would see the same feed that I've been seeing for a long time. I tried to manage to muster up enough outrage that I could write a little bit about it. And outrage is a strong word, but just to be provoked enough by something.

For the first month afterwards, I found it impossible to be outraged. So I would log on. I would see the same feed that I've been seeing for a long time. I tried to manage to muster up enough outrage that I could write a little bit about it. And outrage is a strong word, but just to be provoked enough by something.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It wouldn't be there. And it felt strange because I have been expecting that response for a long time. And interesting, actually, to not be able to feel it. Part of me was alarmed because it was like, okay, then what am I going to do? It's kind of an indictment of the work that I used to do that it required this. But I think everything to some degree requires...

It wouldn't be there. And it felt strange because I have been expecting that response for a long time. And interesting, actually, to not be able to feel it. Part of me was alarmed because it was like, okay, then what am I going to do? It's kind of an indictment of the work that I used to do that it required this. But I think everything to some degree requires...

you to be frustrated by something, frustrated by the lack of a solution to an important social problem, the lack of an answer, so you're searching. What ayahuasca did to me that was, I think, the most directly relevant to my work was that I could just step away. Because my eyes weren't being, like, magnetically pulled towards the most outrageous stuff, I would... spend more time on other things.

you to be frustrated by something, frustrated by the lack of a solution to an important social problem, the lack of an answer, so you're searching. What ayahuasca did to me that was, I think, the most directly relevant to my work was that I could just step away. Because my eyes weren't being, like, magnetically pulled towards the most outrageous stuff, I would... spend more time on other things.

But I would see the outrageous stuff. I would read it. I would digest it. It just wouldn't have that effect on me. It would just come right back out and I would be able to focus on the next thing. It was difficult to go and do the podcast after that.

But I would see the outrageous stuff. I would read it. I would digest it. It just wouldn't have that effect on me. It would just come right back out and I would be able to focus on the next thing. It was difficult to go and do the podcast after that.

So a couple of months ago, this was not recent. No. We had a conversation. Megan and I had a conversation.

So a couple of months ago, this was not recent. No. We had a conversation. Megan and I had a conversation.

Yeah, I called Megan and I was like, you know what, I'm done.

Yeah, I called Megan and I was like, you know what, I'm done.

Yeah, I think you didn't believe me, and then you did. And we had plans to, like, end the podcast.

Yeah, I think you didn't believe me, and then you did. And we had plans to, like, end the podcast.

And it has left me with the sense of like, you know, I don't give a shit. I also called you after that and I said, look, we got to end it actually sooner than... Yeah. Because I don't think I can do it.

And it has left me with the sense of like, you know, I don't give a shit. I also called you after that and I said, look, we got to end it actually sooner than... Yeah. Because I don't think I can do it.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's so... Well, I fully depersonalized after my last night, which is why I left, which is to say I didn't have a self anymore. It was really crazy. And this was after like some pretty incredible and intense hallucinations, possibly brain damage. I don't know. You know, and or both. Why not both? And I do feel like, you know, just all the shit we talk about.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's so... Well, I fully depersonalized after my last night, which is why I left, which is to say I didn't have a self anymore. It was really crazy. And this was after like some pretty incredible and intense hallucinations, possibly brain damage. I don't know. You know, and or both. Why not both? And I do feel like, you know, just all the shit we talk about.

Not only does it not matter, it just doesn't interest me at all. Like, and I was losing interest for a while. I've been losing interest. But at this point, you know... I can't—when I go on Twitter, I'm not outraged.

Not only does it not matter, it just doesn't interest me at all. Like, and I was losing interest for a while. I've been losing interest. But at this point, you know... I can't—when I go on Twitter, I'm not outraged.

Well, we've left some plenty to be mad about. And, like, no way to really get it to us, right? I mean, I guess we're going to leave the comments open. We can leave the comments fully open this time and let them all know. No, no, fuck that. No, they're going to hate.

Well, we've left some plenty to be mad about. And, like, no way to really get it to us, right? I mean, I guess we're going to leave the comments open. We can leave the comments fully open this time and let them all know. No, no, fuck that. No, they're going to hate.

I'll be seeing you. We'll be chatting.

I'll be seeing you. We'll be chatting.

My name is Sarah Hayter. I am a former activist turned podcaster turned former podcaster.

My name is Sarah Hayter. I am a former activist turned podcaster turned former podcaster.

I was born a Muslim. I was raised a Muslim, I should say, in the United States for the most part, but I was born in Pakistan. And I decided that religion was not for me. It stopped making sense in a lot of important ways. It's not a terribly interesting deconversion story, if you're familiar with that at all.

I was born a Muslim. I was raised a Muslim, I should say, in the United States for the most part, but I was born in Pakistan. And I decided that religion was not for me. It stopped making sense in a lot of important ways. It's not a terribly interesting deconversion story, if you're familiar with that at all.

Um, no. No, I don't think it has. Not in the same way. I think I... I don't have the perspective... that, I mean, maybe this is not so unique, but when you were talking about the fact that our show is a culture war show and that you don't find it very enjoyable, like this kind of provocative kind of conversation, I mean, I never thought I was going to end up doing anything like this.

Um, no. No, I don't think it has. Not in the same way. I think I... I don't have the perspective... that, I mean, maybe this is not so unique, but when you were talking about the fact that our show is a culture war show and that you don't find it very enjoyable, like this kind of provocative kind of conversation, I mean, I never thought I was going to end up doing anything like this.

I don't see it as my personality, but this is where the activist part of me takes control in that I think the thing that is so wrong with our discourse is that so many people who should be talking are not talking.

I don't see it as my personality, but this is where the activist part of me takes control in that I think the thing that is so wrong with our discourse is that so many people who should be talking are not talking.

I think that that creates an environment in which our public discourse is captured by the most extreme voices, like the people who are very, very good at just distilling a one-sided account and performing really well for one particular audience. I thought that's what was broken about the conversation we were having around Islam too. I saw that there were, you know, I mean, there were a few

I think that that creates an environment in which our public discourse is captured by the most extreme voices, like the people who are very, very good at just distilling a one-sided account and performing really well for one particular audience. I thought that's what was broken about the conversation we were having around Islam too. I saw that there were, you know, I mean, there were a few

Atheist types that I thought were doing a decent job But then there were also anti-muslim bigots, you know people who were really opposed to Muslims being in the United States like they didn't they had problems with the religion that were really akin to Xenophobia and I come from a Muslim family. So I you know, I'm sensitive to the consequences of those kinds of politics so I

Atheist types that I thought were doing a decent job But then there were also anti-muslim bigots, you know people who were really opposed to Muslims being in the United States like they didn't they had problems with the religion that were really akin to Xenophobia and I come from a Muslim family. So I you know, I'm sensitive to the consequences of those kinds of politics so I

start speaking about it, not because this is where I wanted to be intellectually, not because this is the best way for me to spend my day, but because I just didn't want to abandon this ground to a certain kind of voice.

start speaking about it, not because this is where I wanted to be intellectually, not because this is the best way for me to spend my day, but because I just didn't want to abandon this ground to a certain kind of voice.

I think people think that in order to be nuanced, you also have to be very soft-spoken and hedge your words and not directly poke at, you know, the fire at the moment.

I think people think that in order to be nuanced, you also have to be very soft-spoken and hedge your words and not directly poke at, you know, the fire at the moment.

And again, this is why I brought up Christopher Hitchens as an example of somebody who I thought was doing it right, in that, I mean, there were many things he was doing wrong, and there are many, many issues in which I completely disagree with him on, but in that he was both

And again, this is why I brought up Christopher Hitchens as an example of somebody who I thought was doing it right, in that, I mean, there were many things he was doing wrong, and there are many, many issues in which I completely disagree with him on, but in that he was both

highly intellectual, nuanced, brought something to the debate, and wasn't worried about fighting fire with fire if he needed to, you know? But he showed up for the debate. He showed up to battle. And I thought that that was Incredible. He went to Fox News and he would challenge people directly and debate with them and come out the other side stronger even.

highly intellectual, nuanced, brought something to the debate, and wasn't worried about fighting fire with fire if he needed to, you know? But he showed up for the debate. He showed up to battle. And I thought that that was Incredible. He went to Fox News and he would challenge people directly and debate with them and come out the other side stronger even.

But there's a whole genre of people leaving religion for, you know, kind of standard reasons like this. I was reading the Quran and this such and such thing didn't make sense or there was a contradiction there. A similar set of things happened to me. And I left the religion when I was a teenager.

But there's a whole genre of people leaving religion for, you know, kind of standard reasons like this. I was reading the Quran and this such and such thing didn't make sense or there was a contradiction there. A similar set of things happened to me. And I left the religion when I was a teenager.

You don't even have to convince me because I agree with that. I agree with you that there's a peril in doing that. And that the people who do that are often... They're risking something. And I actually am of the opinion that they are not even risking. It's kind of guaranteed you will lose yourself. It's guaranteed that you will lose...

You don't even have to convince me because I agree with that. I agree with you that there's a peril in doing that. And that the people who do that are often... They're risking something. And I actually am of the opinion that they are not even risking. It's kind of guaranteed you will lose yourself. It's guaranteed that you will lose...

your honest, clear thinking as you continue, but that it still must be done by somebody. I think somebody has to do it. I almost see it as public service. Like you go in for five, 10 years, you become deranged, then you leave. And then new people come in and then they think openly and engage on these issues and then they leave.

your honest, clear thinking as you continue, but that it still must be done by somebody. I think somebody has to do it. I almost see it as public service. Like you go in for five, 10 years, you become deranged, then you leave. And then new people come in and then they think openly and engage on these issues and then they leave.

I think there's something for the public to gain, but privately, I completely agree with you that the thinker over time becomes deranged and loses something in the clarity of their thought.

I think there's something for the public to gain, but privately, I completely agree with you that the thinker over time becomes deranged and loses something in the clarity of their thought.

Yeah, I mean, and I don't, I'm still not committed to X. It's just that once it's on, then I'm engaging with it in that way. I don't need to be on it, and I don't feel the need to be on it. I don't feel as angry when I'm engaging in, I think, the way that I used to. I'm still searching. I don't think I have an answer of exactly what not to do and what to do.

Yeah, I mean, and I don't, I'm still not committed to X. It's just that once it's on, then I'm engaging with it in that way. I don't need to be on it, and I don't feel the need to be on it. I don't feel as angry when I'm engaging in, I think, the way that I used to. I'm still searching. I don't think I have an answer of exactly what not to do and what to do.

I was fairly lucky in that my parents are liberal for Muslims, which is to say they're pretty conservative as far as what Western Christians understand to be the spectrum of religiosity. But Relative to other Muslims, I think they were fairly liberal.

I was fairly lucky in that my parents are liberal for Muslims, which is to say they're pretty conservative as far as what Western Christians understand to be the spectrum of religiosity. But Relative to other Muslims, I think they were fairly liberal.

So I was allowed to leave unmolested, save for some very interesting conversations with my parents, some of them getting to be quite heavy at times, and some tears from my mom here and there. But as I grew a little bit older, I started to meet other ex-Muslims.

So I was allowed to leave unmolested, save for some very interesting conversations with my parents, some of them getting to be quite heavy at times, and some tears from my mom here and there. But as I grew a little bit older, I started to meet other ex-Muslims.

I realized how my experience was actually different than what many other Muslims, even in America, experience when they start questioning religion or leaving religion. And so I found myself in this place where I felt like, okay, I can really do something here.

I realized how my experience was actually different than what many other Muslims, even in America, experience when they start questioning religion or leaving religion. And so I found myself in this place where I felt like, okay, I can really do something here.

I can help a group of people whose struggles I understand intimately, but I am lucky enough not to face them with the same kind of severity as they do.

I can help a group of people whose struggles I understand intimately, but I am lucky enough not to face them with the same kind of severity as they do.

Yeah, I mean, it was like a hurricane. It completely tore apart aspects. Some parts of my family, extended family, they just don't talk to me much anymore. They don't want anything to do with me. They don't even want anything to do with my parents because they tolerate me.

Yeah, I mean, it was like a hurricane. It completely tore apart aspects. Some parts of my family, extended family, they just don't talk to me much anymore. They don't want anything to do with me. They don't even want anything to do with my parents because they tolerate me.

It caused an enormous amount of, I think, stress for everybody because they had to individually make that choice of whether or not they wanted to associate with me now that I have done this terrible thing. And I'm speaking up very openly, and it's bringing a lot of shame and dishonor to my

It caused an enormous amount of, I think, stress for everybody because they had to individually make that choice of whether or not they wanted to associate with me now that I have done this terrible thing. And I'm speaking up very openly, and it's bringing a lot of shame and dishonor to my

My family and then my community, the Muslim community that I used to be in touch with when I was religious, they, you know, don't want anything to do with me. I understand that. I lost many Muslim friends. I think the majority of them, I lost them. And it was kind of like they just sort of ghosted me. You know, it wasn't like a big argument.

My family and then my community, the Muslim community that I used to be in touch with when I was religious, they, you know, don't want anything to do with me. I understand that. I lost many Muslim friends. I think the majority of them, I lost them. And it was kind of like they just sort of ghosted me. You know, it wasn't like a big argument.

Like it was just suddenly I found myself blocked on Facebook back when that used to be a thing.

Like it was just suddenly I found myself blocked on Facebook back when that used to be a thing.

Megan invited me on to her podcast, The Unspeakable, which she had been hosting for several years, and it's an interview-style podcast where she just invites people she finds interesting or, you know, thinkers who are in the heterodox world. And she invited me on to talk about a few things, and it was an interesting conversation. I had a good time with her. I felt like it was easy to talk to her.

Megan invited me on to her podcast, The Unspeakable, which she had been hosting for several years, and it's an interview-style podcast where she just invites people she finds interesting or, you know, thinkers who are in the heterodox world. And she invited me on to talk about a few things, and it was an interesting conversation. I had a good time with her. I felt like it was easy to talk to her.

She's a great interviewer, so... The interview went along very smoothly, and we found that we were both very interested in a few topics, like culture-warrior topics, and we had a similar perspective on them as well, but we were coming at them from very different starting points. You know, Megan has lived a very different life than I have. She continues to live a very different life than I do.

She's a great interviewer, so... The interview went along very smoothly, and we found that we were both very interested in a few topics, like culture-warrior topics, and we had a similar perspective on them as well, but we were coming at them from very different starting points. You know, Megan has lived a very different life than I have. She continues to live a very different life than I do.

So our focuses, even in the issues that we shared political opinions on, our focuses tended to be very different. It was a unique opportunity to talk to somebody like that. But I didn't know that that would lead to a podcast.

So our focuses, even in the issues that we shared political opinions on, our focuses tended to be very different. It was a unique opportunity to talk to somebody like that. But I didn't know that that would lead to a podcast.

Whatever it is, the cult hacking, mental hacking... I think of Greta Thunberg. I think of the environmental activists throwing shit on art, you know, and I'm disgusted by them. And I think of... Bella was a DEI candidate. She didn't deserve to be there. Nobody wanted her to be there. She got in because the Democrats and the left have these differences.

Whatever it is, the cult hacking, mental hacking... I think of Greta Thunberg. I think of the environmental activists throwing shit on art, you know, and I'm disgusted by them. And I think of... Bella was a DEI candidate. She didn't deserve to be there. Nobody wanted her to be there. She got in because the Democrats and the left have these differences.

She starts with a story about how she's pregnant, like crazy pregnant, and she's swollen, and she's gained all this weight, and she has to make it to this meeting because the CFO quit or something, and now she has to raise funds.

She starts with a story about how she's pregnant, like crazy pregnant, and she's swollen, and she's gained all this weight, and she has to make it to this meeting because the CFO quit or something, and now she has to raise funds.

And I'm thinking, I don't want this. If this is success... I feel like my life is precious and my days are important and how I live them is important and I don't want to live that way.

And I'm thinking, I don't want this. If this is success... I feel like my life is precious and my days are important and how I live them is important and I don't want to live that way.

Yeah, yeah. And I think that's the best of what the culture war can give you. It can lead to some really interesting discussions, but those are usually deeper down into the comments or replies somewhere or threads of threads, quote tweets of quote tweets, and then somebody writes an article and then there's more discussion based on that. So I think there is something interesting there.

Yeah, yeah. And I think that's the best of what the culture war can give you. It can lead to some really interesting discussions, but those are usually deeper down into the comments or replies somewhere or threads of threads, quote tweets of quote tweets, and then somebody writes an article and then there's more discussion based on that. So I think there is something interesting there.

It's just hard to find unless you're deeply online like we are.

It's just hard to find unless you're deeply online like we are.

It was, yeah. Most of the time it was enjoyable.

It was, yeah. Most of the time it was enjoyable.

Definitely. Well, it was less of leaving the religion, which generally just left me with a sense of skepticism of religion. what I know and feeling very passionate about open discourse, civil liberties, freedom of speech and thought issues in general, because that was, I often thought about, you know, when I was young, what would have happened if I had just been raised in Pakistan?

Definitely. Well, it was less of leaving the religion, which generally just left me with a sense of skepticism of religion. what I know and feeling very passionate about open discourse, civil liberties, freedom of speech and thought issues in general, because that was, I often thought about, you know, when I was young, what would have happened if I had just been raised in Pakistan?

What if my parents had never left and come to the United States? Would I have stayed religious for, you know, maybe forever? Maybe I would have never really left. Maybe I wouldn't have had the exposure to contradictory, like, viewpoints and perspectives. And maybe it might have been difficult for me to question. And I might have not come to those conclusions at the age that I did.

What if my parents had never left and come to the United States? Would I have stayed religious for, you know, maybe forever? Maybe I would have never really left. Maybe I wouldn't have had the exposure to contradictory, like, viewpoints and perspectives. And maybe it might have been difficult for me to question. And I might have not come to those conclusions at the age that I did.

And so I value... what we have here. And I think of it from the perspective of an immigrant, which is that until I got my citizenship, which was kind of late in the game for me, I had always thought about the fact that I could be leaving, that this might not have been my permanent home.

And so I value... what we have here. And I think of it from the perspective of an immigrant, which is that until I got my citizenship, which was kind of late in the game for me, I had always thought about the fact that I could be leaving, that this might not have been my permanent home.

So I held all these things that we have in the United States, the Western world more broadly, but I think in particular here, and I just cherish them so much. And I, you know, hold them as like these precious things that can be taken away from me at any moment. I just haven't shed that sense.

So I held all these things that we have in the United States, the Western world more broadly, but I think in particular here, and I just cherish them so much. And I, you know, hold them as like these precious things that can be taken away from me at any moment. I just haven't shed that sense.

And I think that that's sort of the broad understanding that kind of anxiety that fuels the things that I tend to focus on now.

And I think that that's sort of the broad understanding that kind of anxiety that fuels the things that I tend to focus on now.

Like, I mean, it's cliche to talk about, but like cancel culture in general, you know, that kind of intolerance towards upsetting viewpoints, censorship on the internet, even for good reasons. I don't know how much the left cares as much about, I think they have a different perception on freedom of speech than they used to, on censorship than they used to.

Like, I mean, it's cliche to talk about, but like cancel culture in general, you know, that kind of intolerance towards upsetting viewpoints, censorship on the internet, even for good reasons. I don't know how much the left cares as much about, I think they have a different perception on freedom of speech than they used to, on censorship than they used to.

So that led to a rift between me and other people I knew around me and then the culture at large.

So that led to a rift between me and other people I knew around me and then the culture at large.

Anytime we found ourselves getting too close to a prescriptive discussion, and that was often something that I fell into. I can't help it. I'm an activist. So I always seek, okay, here's this problem that we're having. What's the solution? Here's the solution. So people should do X. And I would voice it. I would voice how I felt about it. And that would lead to trouble.

I think there was a discussion on divorce that I regretted for such reasons, for these reasons that we've been discussing. I think the lead off to our discussion in that episode might have been this piece that was published by British Phetasy about her experience growing up in a divorced home. I think it was she and her brother that were growing up as children in a divorced family.

And she talked about how they had no attention from either of their parents who were very involved in their new lives that they were trying to build. I think she described herself as kind of a feral child, but just that they were just off on their own. without a lot of parental supervision, and that led her into a lot of trouble.

You know, drugs, not paying attention much to school, that kind of thing. And then there were, you know, some other people agreeing with her, talking about their stories in a similar environment. And so that led to a broader discussion of divorce and our conception of marriage. And that whole saying, stay together for the kids, that has been, for very good reasons...

not something that we recommend so much anymore and we push back on. But our kind of spice it'll take was maybe there is like a logic to it that is pretty important because these are young people.

And people were very upset. Yeah. Yeah, that is what I was saying. That is what I was saying. And I recognized as I was saying it that there are going to be a lot of people very mad at me. And I get it. I get why they're mad. Because here's a stranger who knows nothing about their particular circumstances.

I can't possibly know the details, the nuances of their challenges and why they made the particular decision that they made. And yet I am giving this... kind of a broad prescriptive opinion.

It's hard not to have that feeling of frustration at being misunderstood, but it's just, it feels so personal because I'm talking about personal things. I'm making recommendations about how people should live their lives, their real life. I'm not making a political comment. I'm making a very personal comment. And it understandably leads to very personal exchanges afterwards.

And when I get blowback, it tends to be very personal too. And I think partially because it was a conversation that I was having. It was my voice. We released videos of it, so there was videos of me out there too. It felt like it was a lot more of a personal capture of who I actually am that they were reacting to. And I think that might have been why it was a little bit harder to shake off.

Um... I'm not one of those people who does drugs recreationally very much. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Not that I'm judging. Not that I'm saying you shouldn't do it if you want to. But it's just never really appealed to me too much.

I drink socially. There were times in my life where I drank a little bit more when I was in my early 20s and going out a lot. I usually don't do marijuana. It has this paradoxical reaction with me. It makes me more nauseous rather than less nauseous. So it's just not that pleasant of an experience.

I tried magic mushrooms in college, but it was a very small amount and it didn't affect me very much. That's the totality of my drug experience.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I remember. There were conversations happening mostly on Twitter, on some other places as well, on my private chats with people. But there were some conversations happening about specifically ayahuasca as something that could one-shot people. Have you ever heard of this phrase?

That is what it's referring to. So ayahuasca evidently is so powerful, such a strong drug that you can one-shot yourself. You can take it once and then... lose the mind that you had previously entirely, or you can lose your ambition for whatever it is, whatever passion project that you pursued up until this point, you could decide to leave your life behind and go braid hair in Peru.

Yeah, I was seeing that discourse. I was seeing many people react to others around them having taken it and being alarmed by the extent of the changes they began to make in their life. So to me, it's strange because I was seeing a lot of evidence that this is possibly too dangerous of a thing to try. And I'm thinking, okay, then maybe it's worth doing.

So I'm going to try and just anonymize it, just a reasonable degree. But it was through a friend of a friend I found a connection to a ceremony. Now, you can find ceremonies online. There's these retreat centers that are primarily housed in Peru.

Yeah, it's legal in Peru. It's legal in, I think, a few other places under certain circumstances. So you can go and have like a 10-day retreat in Peru or a seven-day retreat. You purchase your ticket and you go there and go to the middle of the jungle, I presume, with a bunch of strangers. I found that concept to be very alarming.

I was always just afraid that I would end up in the hospital somehow. And then now I'm in a Peruvian hospital with no way to contact my family or limited ways of contacting my family. So that was kind of a nightmare scenario that I did not want to live in this life.

So I asked around if anybody had a connection and it just so happened that somebody brought it up without me bringing it up first at a dinner party. She and I were talking about autism. I was talking about how I think I'm a little bit on the spectrum and she said she's definitely on the spectrum and she is.

And she said that she recently did ayahuasca, went to a retreat, and it helped her connect with others, like normies, helped her connect with normies better. And I thought that was really interesting. And that opened up a new way of thinking about it for me as well.

Yeah.

And then did you say to them, oh, can you just, like, put me in touch with... Yeah, I said, can you let me know if there's a retreat that you can... get me in touch with. It's kind of a shady thing to do. I mean, not just because it's highly illegal, but also because you don't know these people. And this is an incredibly powerful substance.

So you're in this like very vulnerable state for five hours, six hours for every ceremony. And you might have more than one. In my retreat, there were three, but sometimes people have like five ceremonies throughout the course of their retreat. And And it's fascinating because every day you're a little bit more sensitized to the substance.

You are on a special diet with ayahuasca because evidently there are certain foods that can interact in a not pleasant way with the compounds in the brew itself. You're kept on this kind of very restricted diet. It really feels like you're not eating very much. You're not supposed to eat past a certain part of the day because ayahuasca makes you incredibly nauseous.

Many people purge, you know, what they call purging, but it's really you're just vomiting a lot. You're using the restroom a lot. So it's better if you don't eat too much. or eat it all actually after 1 p.m., 2 p.m. for a nighttime ceremony. So you're going through this day after day.

You're in this environment that sensitizes you to the drug more and more as each day passes because you're on this restricted diet. You're not sleeping very much. You hallucinate five to six hours each time. And so every next day is a more powerful experience.

So it's interesting because they talk about set and setting so much, and I try to prepare myself as much as possible for this experience. And the setting is very interesting with ayahuasca because it is approached very much with this kind of spiritual, shamanistic approach. really religious. It's a kind of a religious context. You have somebody there who is kind of like a shaman.

I don't know if there's like a more official word for it, but... I think sometimes they're called ayahuasqueros. That's not what the lady called herself. She called herself something else. I forget. What did she call herself? I forget exactly what she called herself, but I mean, I just knew her name. I called her by her name.

She was somebody who was educated on the medicine, which is what you call it. You call it the medicine, not a drug. She was educated on it. She's grown up with it. There are tribes in various parts of South America that really, I mean, it's part of their routine ayahuasca ceremonies. And they start participating in these ceremonies since they're kids, which is really interesting.

It's interesting that they seem normal as They don't have a lot of anxiety. They just seem like normal, happy people, I guess. And yeah, so she was conducting the ceremony. She was also taking it with us, which I did not realize she would be doing. But she takes the plant. She offers you one cup and then you can take more as the night progresses.

She gave us two more opportunities to take more ayahuasca if we felt as if we weren't where we wanted to be that evening. Yeah. And there's this chanting going on in the background. It's incredibly dark. There are no lights on, just like a candle or two.

So this environment was, if you can imagine being on any kind of psychedelic and being in that kind of environment, it could be maybe a little bit disturbing. In this case, it was like the most powerful, one of the most powerful psychedelics around.

Very anxious, yeah.

I went into hell, I think. I don't know how else to describe it. It's hard to talk about this without sounding silly. You know, even to myself, I sound silly. It's like describing a dream. How do you do that without losing a little bit of your dignity?

Have you seen the show Stranger Things?

You know, the upside down?

So it was like our world, but it wasn't our world. It was our world, but had just a very nefarious smell about it. The hallucinogen was so powerful. I saw a lot when I closed my eyes, but I saw quite a bit when I opened my eyes as well. I had difficulty seeing faces. I couldn't see anybody's face, actually. When I started, if I would look at your face, I wouldn't be able to see it.

I would see like two dark spots where your eyes are and everything else would be just wiped clean.

A part of me was always lucid, was lucid throughout the whole thing. A part of me always knew that I had taken something. When I say lucid, though, lucid in the way that you're lucid in a lucid dream, which is not with your full capacities, but aware that something's happening. Aware that, yes, I've taken this. I've taken this drug, so what I'm seeing is probably a part of that drug.

So at no point did I feel as if this was real. I always thought I was having a hallucination.

It was very scary. It was very scary. And I was there for hours. And I remember looking around the room and being horrified by what I was seeing. The people in the room, the ones who gave me a bad vibe when I was sober, were monstrous on ayahuasca. There's something about people's, they give you a certain kind of feeling. It's not a big deal when you're sober.

When you're on psychedelics, vibes are important. And on ayahuasca, some people were monsters. It was as if they were monsters. And I didn't want to be anywhere near them or around them. And I would have to like turn away from them. At the time, in the deepest part of the trip, I remember thinking, I'm losing my mind and I'm incurring brain damage, like what must be brain damage.

and asking myself, why did I do this? Like, why did I do something that could really transform my mind, which is a good mind. It's served me well up until this point, so why would I play with such an important tool in my toolbox?

You know, it's hard to describe. I don't think it was awful. It was terrifying, but then when I was done, I felt very good. Immediately after, like as the hallucinogen was wearing off, as it was coming off of the high, I had this moment where I felt that my brain was finally on again. But it was on in a different way. It was creative in a way that it never is.

I mean, it is, but not in a way I had ever experienced before. I was able to make all these rapid-fire connections that I had never seen. I think that's why people are referring to when they say that ayahuasca is like 10 years of therapy in a day. I think what it literally is doing to your brain is creating an environment for new pathways to form neurologically. And

For some people, that can feel like therapy because your ego is decreased, if not eliminated. And so you can come to conclusions that otherwise you might be too afraid to reach. You can see things that would scare you and make you feel bad about yourself. And you can see them more clearly and come to terms with them under the influence of the drug.

I think that's why people feel so connected to it or people feel so driven to seek it despite the fact that it can be horrible. Because of this afterglow aspect of it, even when it is a bad trip, it can be useful.

No, no, no. Not at all. I wasn't thinking about work at all. I think it was just that I felt trapped in a lot of ways. I felt trapped intellectually. I felt nihilistic about the world around me. And the podcast had something to do with that. Not fully, but it played a part in that day after day, we would be staring into the abyss. We would be

reading these articles that were designed to make you a little mad because, of course, they want to provoke conversation. They want people to be a little bit riled up. And in paying attention to these things...

as part of what we were doing, as part of our quote-unquote job, I was forced to stare at that abyss day after day and contemplate it deeply all the time, but not deep enough that I could do something about it, not deep enough that I could find a solution, just deep enough that it would unsettle me in some way.

significant way, and then we'd have to move on to the next topic, the next unsettling culture war discussion. So something about doing that, I think, over and over again, it was not a healthy practice, but it also led me to have a definitely not a very positive view on human nature, on our... culture as a whole, on our society.

And I didn't want to think like that because it's a really terrible way to think, not just because it feels bad while you're feeling all these negative feelings, but also because it takes away your drive to be that positive force in the world.

I think the ayahuasca didn't really change the way that I felt about that. I think it made it impossible for me to pursue. You know, it almost said as if it took the option away from me.

It foregrounded it and it just, I couldn't get angry.

For the first month afterwards, I found it impossible to be outraged. So I would log on. I would see the same feed that I've been seeing for a long time. I tried to manage to muster up enough outrage that I could write a little bit about it. And outrage is a strong word, but just to be provoked enough by something.

Yeah.

It wouldn't be there. And it felt strange because I have been expecting that response for a long time. And interesting, actually, to not be able to feel it. Part of me was alarmed because it was like, okay, then what am I going to do? It's kind of an indictment of the work that I used to do that it required this. But I think everything to some degree requires...

you to be frustrated by something, frustrated by the lack of a solution to an important social problem, the lack of an answer, so you're searching. What ayahuasca did to me that was, I think, the most directly relevant to my work was that I could just step away. Because my eyes weren't being, like, magnetically pulled towards the most outrageous stuff, I would... spend more time on other things.

But I would see the outrageous stuff. I would read it. I would digest it. It just wouldn't have that effect on me. It would just come right back out and I would be able to focus on the next thing. It was difficult to go and do the podcast after that.

So a couple of months ago, this was not recent. No. We had a conversation. Megan and I had a conversation.

Yeah, I called Megan and I was like, you know what, I'm done.

Yeah, I think you didn't believe me, and then you did. And we had plans to, like, end the podcast.

And it has left me with the sense of like, you know, I don't give a shit. I also called you after that and I said, look, we got to end it actually sooner than... Yeah. Because I don't think I can do it.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's so... Well, I fully depersonalized after my last night, which is why I left, which is to say I didn't have a self anymore. It was really crazy. And this was after like some pretty incredible and intense hallucinations, possibly brain damage. I don't know. You know, and or both. Why not both? And I do feel like, you know, just all the shit we talk about.

Not only does it not matter, it just doesn't interest me at all. Like, and I was losing interest for a while. I've been losing interest. But at this point, you know... I can't—when I go on Twitter, I'm not outraged.

Well, we've left some plenty to be mad about. And, like, no way to really get it to us, right? I mean, I guess we're going to leave the comments open. We can leave the comments fully open this time and let them all know. No, no, fuck that. No, they're going to hate.

I'll be seeing you. We'll be chatting.

My name is Sarah Hayter. I am a former activist turned podcaster turned former podcaster.

I was born a Muslim. I was raised a Muslim, I should say, in the United States for the most part, but I was born in Pakistan. And I decided that religion was not for me. It stopped making sense in a lot of important ways. It's not a terribly interesting deconversion story, if you're familiar with that at all.

Um, no. No, I don't think it has. Not in the same way. I think I... I don't have the perspective... that, I mean, maybe this is not so unique, but when you were talking about the fact that our show is a culture war show and that you don't find it very enjoyable, like this kind of provocative kind of conversation, I mean, I never thought I was going to end up doing anything like this.

I don't see it as my personality, but this is where the activist part of me takes control in that I think the thing that is so wrong with our discourse is that so many people who should be talking are not talking.

I think that that creates an environment in which our public discourse is captured by the most extreme voices, like the people who are very, very good at just distilling a one-sided account and performing really well for one particular audience. I thought that's what was broken about the conversation we were having around Islam too. I saw that there were, you know, I mean, there were a few

Atheist types that I thought were doing a decent job But then there were also anti-muslim bigots, you know people who were really opposed to Muslims being in the United States like they didn't they had problems with the religion that were really akin to Xenophobia and I come from a Muslim family. So I you know, I'm sensitive to the consequences of those kinds of politics so I

start speaking about it, not because this is where I wanted to be intellectually, not because this is the best way for me to spend my day, but because I just didn't want to abandon this ground to a certain kind of voice.

I think people think that in order to be nuanced, you also have to be very soft-spoken and hedge your words and not directly poke at, you know, the fire at the moment.

And again, this is why I brought up Christopher Hitchens as an example of somebody who I thought was doing it right, in that, I mean, there were many things he was doing wrong, and there are many, many issues in which I completely disagree with him on, but in that he was both

highly intellectual, nuanced, brought something to the debate, and wasn't worried about fighting fire with fire if he needed to, you know? But he showed up for the debate. He showed up to battle. And I thought that that was Incredible. He went to Fox News and he would challenge people directly and debate with them and come out the other side stronger even.

But there's a whole genre of people leaving religion for, you know, kind of standard reasons like this. I was reading the Quran and this such and such thing didn't make sense or there was a contradiction there. A similar set of things happened to me. And I left the religion when I was a teenager.

You don't even have to convince me because I agree with that. I agree with you that there's a peril in doing that. And that the people who do that are often... They're risking something. And I actually am of the opinion that they are not even risking. It's kind of guaranteed you will lose yourself. It's guaranteed that you will lose...

your honest, clear thinking as you continue, but that it still must be done by somebody. I think somebody has to do it. I almost see it as public service. Like you go in for five, 10 years, you become deranged, then you leave. And then new people come in and then they think openly and engage on these issues and then they leave.

I think there's something for the public to gain, but privately, I completely agree with you that the thinker over time becomes deranged and loses something in the clarity of their thought.

Yeah, I mean, and I don't, I'm still not committed to X. It's just that once it's on, then I'm engaging with it in that way. I don't need to be on it, and I don't feel the need to be on it. I don't feel as angry when I'm engaging in, I think, the way that I used to. I'm still searching. I don't think I have an answer of exactly what not to do and what to do.

I was fairly lucky in that my parents are liberal for Muslims, which is to say they're pretty conservative as far as what Western Christians understand to be the spectrum of religiosity. But Relative to other Muslims, I think they were fairly liberal.

So I was allowed to leave unmolested, save for some very interesting conversations with my parents, some of them getting to be quite heavy at times, and some tears from my mom here and there. But as I grew a little bit older, I started to meet other ex-Muslims.

I realized how my experience was actually different than what many other Muslims, even in America, experience when they start questioning religion or leaving religion. And so I found myself in this place where I felt like, okay, I can really do something here.

I can help a group of people whose struggles I understand intimately, but I am lucky enough not to face them with the same kind of severity as they do.

Yeah, I mean, it was like a hurricane. It completely tore apart aspects. Some parts of my family, extended family, they just don't talk to me much anymore. They don't want anything to do with me. They don't even want anything to do with my parents because they tolerate me.

It caused an enormous amount of, I think, stress for everybody because they had to individually make that choice of whether or not they wanted to associate with me now that I have done this terrible thing. And I'm speaking up very openly, and it's bringing a lot of shame and dishonor to my

My family and then my community, the Muslim community that I used to be in touch with when I was religious, they, you know, don't want anything to do with me. I understand that. I lost many Muslim friends. I think the majority of them, I lost them. And it was kind of like they just sort of ghosted me. You know, it wasn't like a big argument.

Like it was just suddenly I found myself blocked on Facebook back when that used to be a thing.

Megan invited me on to her podcast, The Unspeakable, which she had been hosting for several years, and it's an interview-style podcast where she just invites people she finds interesting or, you know, thinkers who are in the heterodox world. And she invited me on to talk about a few things, and it was an interesting conversation. I had a good time with her. I felt like it was easy to talk to her.

She's a great interviewer, so... The interview went along very smoothly, and we found that we were both very interested in a few topics, like culture-warrior topics, and we had a similar perspective on them as well, but we were coming at them from very different starting points. You know, Megan has lived a very different life than I have. She continues to live a very different life than I do.

So our focuses, even in the issues that we shared political opinions on, our focuses tended to be very different. It was a unique opportunity to talk to somebody like that. But I didn't know that that would lead to a podcast.

Whatever it is, the cult hacking, mental hacking... I think of Greta Thunberg. I think of the environmental activists throwing shit on art, you know, and I'm disgusted by them. And I think of... Bella was a DEI candidate. She didn't deserve to be there. Nobody wanted her to be there. She got in because the Democrats and the left have these differences.

She starts with a story about how she's pregnant, like crazy pregnant, and she's swollen, and she's gained all this weight, and she has to make it to this meeting because the CFO quit or something, and now she has to raise funds.

And I'm thinking, I don't want this. If this is success... I feel like my life is precious and my days are important and how I live them is important and I don't want to live that way.

Yeah, yeah. And I think that's the best of what the culture war can give you. It can lead to some really interesting discussions, but those are usually deeper down into the comments or replies somewhere or threads of threads, quote tweets of quote tweets, and then somebody writes an article and then there's more discussion based on that. So I think there is something interesting there.

It's just hard to find unless you're deeply online like we are.

It was, yeah. Most of the time it was enjoyable.

Definitely. Well, it was less of leaving the religion, which generally just left me with a sense of skepticism of religion. what I know and feeling very passionate about open discourse, civil liberties, freedom of speech and thought issues in general, because that was, I often thought about, you know, when I was young, what would have happened if I had just been raised in Pakistan?

What if my parents had never left and come to the United States? Would I have stayed religious for, you know, maybe forever? Maybe I would have never really left. Maybe I wouldn't have had the exposure to contradictory, like, viewpoints and perspectives. And maybe it might have been difficult for me to question. And I might have not come to those conclusions at the age that I did.

And so I value... what we have here. And I think of it from the perspective of an immigrant, which is that until I got my citizenship, which was kind of late in the game for me, I had always thought about the fact that I could be leaving, that this might not have been my permanent home.

So I held all these things that we have in the United States, the Western world more broadly, but I think in particular here, and I just cherish them so much. And I, you know, hold them as like these precious things that can be taken away from me at any moment. I just haven't shed that sense.

And I think that that's sort of the broad understanding that kind of anxiety that fuels the things that I tend to focus on now.

Like, I mean, it's cliche to talk about, but like cancel culture in general, you know, that kind of intolerance towards upsetting viewpoints, censorship on the internet, even for good reasons. I don't know how much the left cares as much about, I think they have a different perception on freedom of speech than they used to, on censorship than they used to.

So that led to a rift between me and other people I knew around me and then the culture at large.