Whitney Wolf Herd

Bizarre. On that point of personal branding, though, do you think building a personal brand is important?

Bizarre. On that point of personal branding, though, do you think building a personal brand is important?

In those early years of Tinder, I remember being told the story maybe 10 years ago in San Francisco when I was working there with a guy called Michael Birch, who was the old Bebo founder. In his little sort of incubator that I was in when I was 20, they were telling me the Tinder story of how you went to a fraternity. For people that don't know what a fraternity is, what's a fraternity?

In those early years of Tinder, I remember being told the story maybe 10 years ago in San Francisco when I was working there with a guy called Michael Birch, who was the old Bebo founder. In his little sort of incubator that I was in when I was 20, they were telling me the Tinder story of how you went to a fraternity. For people that don't know what a fraternity is, what's a fraternity?

Uh, so I guess in the UK it would be like college clubs maybe. Do they have like members clubs or something like that? So basically sororities and fraternities and sororities are a house of women and fraternities are a house of men. And essentially a lot of college students, they do something called rush where they rush and they go house to house and they meet all the women or all the men.

Uh, so I guess in the UK it would be like college clubs maybe. Do they have like members clubs or something like that? So basically sororities and fraternities and sororities are a house of women and fraternities are a house of men. And essentially a lot of college students, they do something called rush where they rush and they go house to house and they meet all the women or all the men.

Because people, many companies see it as like an annoyance. Like I've sold you the fucking thing. Why are you emailing me? And they treat you like you're a nuisance.

Because people, many companies see it as like an annoyance. Like I've sold you the fucking thing. Why are you emailing me? And they treat you like you're a nuisance.

And then they basically prep. They, uh, put in the name of the one they would really love to be a part of, and then they see who accepted them back. It's been criticized up and down, and there's a lot of things that are not spectacular about it, but this is a way a lot of people find friendship and community. It's a community gathering for their college campus.

And then they basically prep. They, uh, put in the name of the one they would really love to be a part of, and then they see who accepted them back. It's been criticized up and down, and there's a lot of things that are not spectacular about it, but this is a way a lot of people find friendship and community. It's a community gathering for their college campus.

So with Tinder, I essentially went back to my alma mater at SMU. I had just graduated, so a lot of my best friends were still in school. So I got access to the campus, And I would start at the sororities and then go to the fraternity. So I'd essentially have all the young women download it and then run to the fraternity and then they would download it and then everyone would start connecting.

So with Tinder, I essentially went back to my alma mater at SMU. I had just graduated, so a lot of my best friends were still in school. So I got access to the campus, And I would start at the sororities and then go to the fraternity. So I'd essentially have all the young women download it and then run to the fraternity and then they would download it and then everyone would start connecting.

So, you know, is that good? Is that bad? How do you want to chop that up 10 years later? Who knows? But that's the reality and, you know, can't escape the truth. But so you heard about this way back when.

So, you know, is that good? Is that bad? How do you want to chop that up 10 years later? Who knows? But that's the reality and, you know, can't escape the truth. But so you heard about this way back when.

I heard about this 10 years ago, because we were building community-centric apps. We were building something called Blab, which resembles what Clubhouse is now. And when we were talking about the marketing strategy, Tinder kept coming up. But yeah, that was the thesis.

I heard about this 10 years ago, because we were building community-centric apps. We were building something called Blab, which resembles what Clubhouse is now. And when we were talking about the marketing strategy, Tinder kept coming up. But yeah, that was the thesis.

It was like, should we go to fraternities and go get, you know, to try and build that sort of isolated, tight community to try and get product market fit.

It was like, should we go to fraternities and go get, you know, to try and build that sort of isolated, tight community to try and get product market fit.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because network effects really, really matter, especially in the dating game.

Because network effects really, really matter, especially in the dating game.

The most important. That's why there's only a handful of dating apps that have ever survived. I mean, at least during my time doing this, which is almost a decade now. But what's interesting is there's such a... Not to say only I could do this or only somebody else could do this, but there was a superpower in the timing of it all because I had just graduated. And I knew all of these people. So...

The most important. That's why there's only a handful of dating apps that have ever survived. I mean, at least during my time doing this, which is almost a decade now. But what's interesting is there's such a... Not to say only I could do this or only somebody else could do this, but there was a superpower in the timing of it all because I had just graduated. And I knew all of these people. So...

If some random startup founder knocks on a sorority door, the police are coming. You know, like you can't do that. So I felt like I had this insider hook, right? Because I was technically an extension of that by proxy because I had just been on the college campus. And I took the photo of one of my guy friends back then who was, you know, all the young women had mega crush on on him.

If some random startup founder knocks on a sorority door, the police are coming. You know, like you can't do that. So I felt like I had this insider hook, right? Because I was technically an extension of that by proxy because I had just been on the college campus. And I took the photo of one of my guy friends back then who was, you know, all the young women had mega crush on on him.

And then I took the photo of my best friend, Danielle, who was very well liked on campus. And I went into Danny's journalism class. because she was still a student. And I basically snuck into her journalism class and used Photoshop. And I took the Tinder screens and I put the guy's face on one and her face on the other. And I said, find out who likes you on campus.

And then I took the photo of my best friend, Danielle, who was very well liked on campus. And I went into Danny's journalism class. because she was still a student. And I basically snuck into her journalism class and used Photoshop. And I took the Tinder screens and I put the guy's face on one and her face on the other. And I said, find out who likes you on campus.

And then I saved it to a file because this is the olden days at this point. And I went to FedEx, which is like the office supply store across the street. And I printed a thousand copies.

And then I saved it to a file because this is the olden days at this point. And I went to FedEx, which is like the office supply store across the street. And I printed a thousand copies.

And I quite literally handed different students on campus $20 to go distribute them under dorm doors and to put them on windshields and to put them, you know, in their different social clubs and to essentially distribute these flyers everywhere. So this entire campus and now in hindsight, it's probably not great. It's littering. There's all sorts of bad things involved with it.

And I quite literally handed different students on campus $20 to go distribute them under dorm doors and to put them on windshields and to put them, you know, in their different social clubs and to essentially distribute these flyers everywhere. So this entire campus and now in hindsight, it's probably not great. It's littering. There's all sorts of bad things involved with it.

But like, I'm just telling you a story. So yeah. Yeah, basically that was just one of the tactics I used to go and put it all over campus. And then I had a few t-shirts printed up that said, don't ask for my number, find me on Tinder. And I had my girlfriends wear the t-shirts and we went to the bar. And so I gave them a couple hundred bucks. And they would go around and buy drinks.

But like, I'm just telling you a story. So yeah. Yeah, basically that was just one of the tactics I used to go and put it all over campus. And then I had a few t-shirts printed up that said, don't ask for my number, find me on Tinder. And I had my girlfriends wear the t-shirts and we went to the bar. And so I gave them a couple hundred bucks. And they would go around and buy drinks.

And then when people would ask for their number, they'd essentially say you have to download Tinder. So it was a lot of these tiny hacking concepts that made no sense. No one had ever done these things before. I had no playbook. It wasn't like I was reading some manual to marketing. It was just what felt right. It was just bringing the real life dating experience to life through an app marketing.

And then when people would ask for their number, they'd essentially say you have to download Tinder. So it was a lot of these tiny hacking concepts that made no sense. No one had ever done these things before. I had no playbook. It wasn't like I was reading some manual to marketing. It was just what felt right. It was just bringing the real life dating experience to life through an app marketing.

There's like so many important messages of marketing there. I mean, the first one that you said was that you were the customer. You were so close to the customer that you understood them. I mean, even you said about how if another startup had come and knocked on the sorority, well, they wouldn't have even known which door to knock on for a start. That's true.

There's like so many important messages of marketing there. I mean, the first one that you said was that you were the customer. You were so close to the customer that you understood them. I mean, even you said about how if another startup had come and knocked on the sorority, well, they wouldn't have even known which door to knock on for a start. That's true.

They would have knocked on the wrong door, got the wrong people. And they wouldn't have understood those people, their motivation. So like really you being the customer, I think is such a key thing. And then the second thing you said about like if I'd read a marketing book and you were kind of just doing it based on intuition.

They would have knocked on the wrong door, got the wrong people. And they wouldn't have understood those people, their motivation. So like really you being the customer, I think is such a key thing. And then the second thing you said about like if I'd read a marketing book and you were kind of just doing it based on intuition.

I've seen over and over again from speaking to really successful CEOs and founders how important naivety was, like not knowing.

I've seen over and over again from speaking to really successful CEOs and founders how important naivety was, like not knowing.

So important. Just following your gut.

So important. Just following your gut.

Yeah, because that's creating something from first principles as opposed to convention. That's real innovation, right? And it creates solutions that are more suited for today and for the challenge that you're solving, which no one has ever had the challenge of solving on that date ever.

Yeah, because that's creating something from first principles as opposed to convention. That's real innovation, right? And it creates solutions that are more suited for today and for the challenge that you're solving, which no one has ever had the challenge of solving on that date ever.

But naivety, you know, this is sometimes why I think some of the best founders don't come from like business school or from marketing school. The best marketeers aren't marketing graduates because naivety is such a superpower, right?

But naivety, you know, this is sometimes why I think some of the best founders don't come from like business school or from marketing school. The best marketeers aren't marketing graduates because naivety is such a superpower, right?

It's a superpower and following your instinct. And if you understand what moves people and what motivates people, then you have this opportunity to connect with them on a real level. I mean, we've done things that are ridiculous. So I remember we would make these signs that said they had the big X's like, no, you know, like you're not allowed to.

It's a superpower and following your instinct. And if you understand what moves people and what motivates people, then you have this opportunity to connect with them on a real level. I mean, we've done things that are ridiculous. So I remember we would make these signs that said they had the big X's like, no, you know, like you're not allowed to.

And they said, no Facebook, no Instagram, no Snapchat, no Bumble. This was like week three of Bumble or something, some ridiculous early, maybe first year, I can't remember at this point. And we would post those all over the universities. So there was this association where it was like, wait, I can't do the things I really want to do. I want to sit in class and Snapchat.

And they said, no Facebook, no Instagram, no Snapchat, no Bumble. This was like week three of Bumble or something, some ridiculous early, maybe first year, I can't remember at this point. And we would post those all over the universities. So there was this association where it was like, wait, I can't do the things I really want to do. I want to sit in class and Snapchat.

I want to sit in class and Instagram. What the hell is Bumble? And so we were essentially seeding this psychological curiosity. And then we were actually sending emails young women wearing Bumble shirts into classes 10 or 15 minutes late, interrupting a class of 300 people and saying, oh, sorry, wrong room.

I want to sit in class and Instagram. What the hell is Bumble? And so we were essentially seeding this psychological curiosity. And then we were actually sending emails young women wearing Bumble shirts into classes 10 or 15 minutes late, interrupting a class of 300 people and saying, oh, sorry, wrong room.

But everyone's looking at this young woman or young man, whoever it was, wearing a Bumble t-shirt. So we were seeding curiosity and this like, why is Bumble everywhere type of thing? And so, a lot of people think, oh, well, I can just go start an app and I'll just buy some Instagram ads and I'll just be successful.

But everyone's looking at this young woman or young man, whoever it was, wearing a Bumble t-shirt. So we were seeding curiosity and this like, why is Bumble everywhere type of thing? And so, a lot of people think, oh, well, I can just go start an app and I'll just buy some Instagram ads and I'll just be successful.

But if people only knew the fraction of the insane everyday little hacks that I did and our team did to bring this to life, we were the first people certainly the first tech brand to do humor accounts, to pay for the humor memes. Do you remember the humor memes?

But if people only knew the fraction of the insane everyday little hacks that I did and our team did to bring this to life, we were the first people certainly the first tech brand to do humor accounts, to pay for the humor memes. Do you remember the humor memes?

Well, we ran a bit of a hundred million followers on meme accounts.

Well, we ran a bit of a hundred million followers on meme accounts.

Yeah. So you know all about this, but like we were way back years and years ago, I remember reaching out to, I can't remember what it was, one of these meme accounts. And they're like, wait, you want to pay us to I'm confused. How does that work? And we're like, okay, here's the deal. We'll give you 100 bucks or whatever it was.

Yeah. So you know all about this, but like we were way back years and years ago, I remember reaching out to, I can't remember what it was, one of these meme accounts. And they're like, wait, you want to pay us to I'm confused. How does that work? And we're like, okay, here's the deal. We'll give you 100 bucks or whatever it was.

We turn around a year later, that same account is charging $100,000 a post. So there's also something about luck and timing. Being... just right before something, you know? And if you look at Bumble, we were also beating the woman drum, this drum of we need to advocate for women, beating this drum of let's, put women first, let's elevate women. Women are not equal in their relationships.

We turn around a year later, that same account is charging $100,000 a post. So there's also something about luck and timing. Being... just right before something, you know? And if you look at Bumble, we were also beating the woman drum, this drum of we need to advocate for women, beating this drum of let's, put women first, let's elevate women. Women are not equal in their relationships.

Women are not being treated respectfully. Women are being abused on the internet. Women are not being treated right. We were saying this in 2014 and then Me Too would come a couple of years later. So I think we've been lucky as a business to basically be right before the wave. And then we've been able to be a part of that wave versus chasing a wave. And so many people chase a wave.

Women are not being treated respectfully. Women are being abused on the internet. Women are not being treated right. We were saying this in 2014 and then Me Too would come a couple of years later. So I think we've been lucky as a business to basically be right before the wave. And then we've been able to be a part of that wave versus chasing a wave. And so many people chase a wave.

So many people chase a wave. They look around them like, well, what's cool? How do I chase that? And I feel like we've always had the good fortune or whatever you wanna call it. Conviction? Sure.

So many people chase a wave. They look around them like, well, what's cool? How do I chase that? And I feel like we've always had the good fortune or whatever you wanna call it. Conviction? Sure.

Inspiration?

Inspiration?

to go first. And so that's been maybe a superpower of ours over the years.

to go first. And so that's been maybe a superpower of ours over the years.

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Having worked in the advertising industry, this is a conversation we have all the time with clients, which is that you'll meet a certain type of client who's very, who's religious about the bottom of the funnel. If I can't track it and I don't know exactly- I won't do it. I won't do it. Then you'll sometimes meet the opposite, which is someone who just loves to spend on brand. They're both wrong.

Having worked in the advertising industry, this is a conversation we have all the time with clients, which is that you'll meet a certain type of client who's very, who's religious about the bottom of the funnel. If I can't track it and I don't know exactly- I won't do it. I won't do it. Then you'll sometimes meet the opposite, which is someone who just loves to spend on brand. They're both wrong.

You're wasting money.

You're wasting money.

Is it just intuitive?

Is it just intuitive?

You had to work less hard.

You had to work less hard.

fame you talked about fame there fame can also be applied in the topic of personal branding as well obviously social media has allowed us all now to build our personal brands you've got the gary vaynerchuks of the world who have built you know you know their companies are famous because they've they've branded a person at ogilvy and within your sort of your marketing what kind of shift have you seen in the desire for people to become brands themselves and how valuable do you think that is

fame you talked about fame there fame can also be applied in the topic of personal branding as well obviously social media has allowed us all now to build our personal brands you've got the gary vaynerchuks of the world who have built you know you know their companies are famous because they've they've branded a person at ogilvy and within your sort of your marketing what kind of shift have you seen in the desire for people to become brands themselves and how valuable do you think that is