Zoe Schlanger

This just occurred to me recently. I mean, yeah, presumably if it's black plastic, there is a chance it came from that material stream of recycled e-waste. And the last thing you want is scalding hot, you know, foamy, creamy coffee passing through a little black plastic hole into your mouth. It's not ideal. So I actually just got coffee right before this and did not take a lid.

This just occurred to me recently. I mean, yeah, presumably if it's black plastic, there is a chance it came from that material stream of recycled e-waste. And the last thing you want is scalding hot, you know, foamy, creamy coffee passing through a little black plastic hole into your mouth. It's not ideal. So I actually just got coffee right before this and did not take a lid.

Yeah. So I'd start by saying that the issue with nonstick Teflon is one brand name for this, but there's a bunch of them. Nonstick pans are coated in a class of chemicals called PFAS. And these are also coating things like our raincoats, our hiking boots, just anything that is nonstick is basically made out of these compounds that we've now found are very bad for our health in high concentrations.

Yeah. So I'd start by saying that the issue with nonstick Teflon is one brand name for this, but there's a bunch of them. Nonstick pans are coated in a class of chemicals called PFAS. And these are also coating things like our raincoats, our hiking boots, just anything that is nonstick is basically made out of these compounds that we've now found are very bad for our health in high concentrations.

So the people who are really affected by this are the ones living near a plant that made PFAS, and now their water supply has been contaminated for 30 years. Or people who live near an army base where they are using a lot of firefighting foam, which is full of PFAS. But then you zoom in on, like, people using individual products, and it becomes a little hazier.

So the people who are really affected by this are the ones living near a plant that made PFAS, and now their water supply has been contaminated for 30 years. Or people who live near an army base where they are using a lot of firefighting foam, which is full of PFAS. But then you zoom in on, like, people using individual products, and it becomes a little hazier.

We do know that the PFAS in your pan becomes unstable at high temperatures, right? So there's lots of warnings on these things that you're not really supposed to use them to cook at temperatures higher than 400 or 500 degrees. But who doesn't accidentally leave their pan on the stove sometimes and scorch it, and then it smells terrible? You're breathing in fumes from PFAS, most likely.

We do know that the PFAS in your pan becomes unstable at high temperatures, right? So there's lots of warnings on these things that you're not really supposed to use them to cook at temperatures higher than 400 or 500 degrees. But who doesn't accidentally leave their pan on the stove sometimes and scorch it, and then it smells terrible? You're breathing in fumes from PFAS, most likely.

You mentioned scratched coatings. It's super easy to scratch. Actually, the number one response to the throw out your black plastic spatula, when I was like, just get stainless steel ones, people were like, but it'll scratch my nonstick pan. And my response to that is, throw out your nonstick pan. But we can't necessarily ask everyone to do that.

You mentioned scratched coatings. It's super easy to scratch. Actually, the number one response to the throw out your black plastic spatula, when I was like, just get stainless steel ones, people were like, but it'll scratch my nonstick pan. And my response to that is, throw out your nonstick pan. But we can't necessarily ask everyone to do that.

I get that it's so convenient to make an egg in a nonstick pan. I haven't done it in years, but I hear it's great.

I get that it's so convenient to make an egg in a nonstick pan. I haven't done it in years, but I hear it's great.

I don't mean to sound judgy, but honestly, cast iron is just so much better.

I don't mean to sound judgy, but honestly, cast iron is just so much better.

I think when an LLM tells you something that appears to be sentient, it's just mimicking human data.

I think when an LLM tells you something that appears to be sentient, it's just mimicking human data.

So I grew up in a house with a parrot when I was young. And bird owners know that cooking with nonstick pans could result in the death of your bird. So I just grew up not having them around. Why? I think it's because the gas volatilizes PFAS, the nonstick compound. Its fumes get in the air, and birds are much more sensitive than humans, like all small animals.

So I grew up in a house with a parrot when I was young. And bird owners know that cooking with nonstick pans could result in the death of your bird. So I just grew up not having them around. Why? I think it's because the gas volatilizes PFAS, the nonstick compound. Its fumes get in the air, and birds are much more sensitive than humans, like all small animals.

Yeah, it's kind of like that.

Yeah, it's kind of like that.

I mean, yeah. I feel like it's the kind of thing with, like, dogs and chocolates. Like, they won't die every time, but there was a chance, so we didn't have it in the house. But there was never a discussion about it being bad for animals. human health. It was just like, no, you have a pet bird. You can't have nonstick.

I mean, yeah. I feel like it's the kind of thing with, like, dogs and chocolates. Like, they won't die every time, but there was a chance, so we didn't have it in the house. But there was never a discussion about it being bad for animals. human health. It was just like, no, you have a pet bird. You can't have nonstick.

Oh, yes.

Oh, yes.

I wouldn't do it. My understanding is that I was thinking about like sous vide bags too, you know?

I wouldn't do it. My understanding is that I was thinking about like sous vide bags too, you know?

It would violate my personal rule about like putting fatty things next to plastic because I just know the chemistry of that means it encourages migration of compounds out of the plastic and into your food. But my understanding is that the bags specifically designed for this are considered food grade and often, you know, can be labeled phthalate free now.

It would violate my personal rule about like putting fatty things next to plastic because I just know the chemistry of that means it encourages migration of compounds out of the plastic and into your food. But my understanding is that the bags specifically designed for this are considered food grade and often, you know, can be labeled phthalate free now.

Everyone was texting me. Someone texted me that the entire town of Burlington, Vermont was throwing their spatulas out the window at the same time.

Everyone was texting me. Someone texted me that the entire town of Burlington, Vermont was throwing their spatulas out the window at the same time.

So there is knowledge about this in the consumer market enough for companies to make things that are less harmful. That's not to say they're not potentially problematic. I mean, the way I think about this is everything could affect you negatively a little bit. And we are so bombarded by problematic things in our everyday life getting into our bodies. And you just want to lower your dose.

So there is knowledge about this in the consumer market enough for companies to make things that are less harmful. That's not to say they're not potentially problematic. I mean, the way I think about this is everything could affect you negatively a little bit. And we are so bombarded by problematic things in our everyday life getting into our bodies. And you just want to lower your dose.

So it's kind of choosing how to lower your dose. It's not that your turkey bag is going to kill you. It's that you're just adding a little extra. Right. And you don't need to.

So it's kind of choosing how to lower your dose. It's not that your turkey bag is going to kill you. It's that you're just adding a little extra. Right. And you don't need to.

Or you just put a plate over it. Like, you don't even need all this stuff. You know, plastic wrap's gone through all these iterations. It used to be made out of much more harmful stuff, and then they eliminated some of it. I just avoid it.

Or you just put a plate over it. Like, you don't even need all this stuff. You know, plastic wrap's gone through all these iterations. It used to be made out of much more harmful stuff, and then they eliminated some of it. I just avoid it.

No.

No.

A bowl.

A bowl.

Okay.

Okay.

I wrap, you know, you get cheese and you have to wrap it in something so it doesn't go bad immediately. I have, this is going to make me sound so crunchy, but I have those like beeswax wraps. It's like cloth waxed in beeswax. And that's what people, people just use wax paper for everything. You can just do that.

I wrap, you know, you get cheese and you have to wrap it in something so it doesn't go bad immediately. I have, this is going to make me sound so crunchy, but I have those like beeswax wraps. It's like cloth waxed in beeswax. And that's what people, people just use wax paper for everything. You can just do that.

So we know it's not great to be in a home with a natural gas stove. We know that it is associated with higher rates of child asthma, just breathing problems in general. You're inhaling things like benzene. That said, many people have them. I have one. I'm a renter in New York. There's no way I'm not going to have a gas stove. I can't ask my landlord to buy a beautiful induction stove for me.

So we know it's not great to be in a home with a natural gas stove. We know that it is associated with higher rates of child asthma, just breathing problems in general. You're inhaling things like benzene. That said, many people have them. I have one. I'm a renter in New York. There's no way I'm not going to have a gas stove. I can't ask my landlord to buy a beautiful induction stove for me.

But one thing that makes a big difference is using your overhead vent. Just gently turning on your family's overhead vent while they're cooking can actually take a lot of the problematic compounds out of the air. Oh, really? Yeah. Okay. It's not totally a fail-safe. It doesn't get it all out. It would be nice if we all had induction stoves.

But one thing that makes a big difference is using your overhead vent. Just gently turning on your family's overhead vent while they're cooking can actually take a lot of the problematic compounds out of the air. Oh, really? Yeah. Okay. It's not totally a fail-safe. It doesn't get it all out. It would be nice if we all had induction stoves.

Absolutely. There's a lot of discussion about how to tell silicone apart from plastic, whether different color plastic was okay, which, like, spoiler alert, probably not, but black is worse. Mm-hmm.

Absolutely. There's a lot of discussion about how to tell silicone apart from plastic, whether different color plastic was okay, which, like, spoiler alert, probably not, but black is worse. Mm-hmm.

But I also get it does sometimes feel good to cook over fire.

But I also get it does sometimes feel good to cook over fire.

I will say that that is a really elaborate PR job by the natural gas industry, too. Do you remember this? There was this moment when they were hiring Instagram influencers to promote gas stoves and things like that.

I will say that that is a really elaborate PR job by the natural gas industry, too. Do you remember this? There was this moment when they were hiring Instagram influencers to promote gas stoves and things like that.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

As do I. And I only recently learned that some parchment paper is coated in PFAS. That's what makes it nonstick. So you actually want to check. And I recently got parchment paper that's coated in silicone instead and is nice and nonstick because of that and doesn't cost any more.

As do I. And I only recently learned that some parchment paper is coated in PFAS. That's what makes it nonstick. So you actually want to check. And I recently got parchment paper that's coated in silicone instead and is nice and nonstick because of that and doesn't cost any more.

Right. None of this is going to kill you. But I recently went down the rabbit hole of trying to buy a slow cooker and pressure cooker. Interesting. And I really wanted to get an instant pot. And then I went online and looked at their disclosures on the website. And it turns out those can contain PFAS. I was really surprised by that.

Right. None of this is going to kill you. But I recently went down the rabbit hole of trying to buy a slow cooker and pressure cooker. Interesting. And I really wanted to get an instant pot. And then I went online and looked at their disclosures on the website. And it turns out those can contain PFAS. I was really surprised by that.

Because the basin of an Instant Pot is just a stainless steel bowl. But my assumption is there's something in the lid that is in the food contact surface that is also PFAS. So just basically many, many other kitchen appliances are coated in a nonstick layer of PFAS. I also tried to buy a...

Because the basin of an Instant Pot is just a stainless steel bowl. But my assumption is there's something in the lid that is in the food contact surface that is also PFAS. So just basically many, many other kitchen appliances are coated in a nonstick layer of PFAS. I also tried to buy a...

Toaster oven, like, for the counter, so I wouldn't have to turn on my gas oven every single time I wanted to bake something. And a lot of those, the entire interior is just coated in PFAS. Interesting.

Toaster oven, like, for the counter, so I wouldn't have to turn on my gas oven every single time I wanted to bake something. And a lot of those, the entire interior is just coated in PFAS. Interesting.

Yeah.

Yeah.

They put it on their website. If you look in, like, the materials and care section of most of these things, it'll let you know.

They put it on their website. If you look in, like, the materials and care section of most of these things, it'll let you know.

Well, it's like so important to remember stress is also a major health hazard. So I don't want anyone to get super stressed out about this or blow it out of proportion. You're not going to die because of any of this, but you are just accumulating things you don't need in your body.

Well, it's like so important to remember stress is also a major health hazard. So I don't want anyone to get super stressed out about this or blow it out of proportion. You're not going to die because of any of this, but you are just accumulating things you don't need in your body.

Yeah, I walk around all day. There's so many inputs to my body I can't control. But at least I can control the ones in my kitchen. Right.

Yeah, I walk around all day. There's so many inputs to my body I can't control. But at least I can control the ones in my kitchen. Right.

I hope he thanks you and doesn't get really pissed off. It could go either way.

I hope he thanks you and doesn't get really pissed off. It could go either way.

That seems only reasonable. I will say my, you know, on other Thanksgivings, my two sides of my family have very different ideas about all this. So there's like one home I'd go into where basically everything is, you know, natural products and the other side where everything would be microwaved in plastic. Wow. So how do you handle that situation? You just mostly have to live and let live.

That seems only reasonable. I will say my, you know, on other Thanksgivings, my two sides of my family have very different ideas about all this. So there's like one home I'd go into where basically everything is, you know, natural products and the other side where everything would be microwaved in plastic. Wow. So how do you handle that situation? You just mostly have to live and let live.

It's like also, you know, if I'm their daughter and they're not reading my articles, there's not much I'm going to do, you know?

It's like also, you know, if I'm their daughter and they're not reading my articles, there's not much I'm going to do, you know?

Just in case.

Just in case.

You just eat that meal and go back to your own kitchen and think about your own choices. I mean, okay, this is all to say you eat in restaurants all the time. Yes. Restaurants are using plastic constantly. Yeah. Yeah. It's really just like you lower your own dose when you can.

You just eat that meal and go back to your own kitchen and think about your own choices. I mean, okay, this is all to say you eat in restaurants all the time. Yes. Restaurants are using plastic constantly. Yeah. Yeah. It's really just like you lower your own dose when you can.

I think so. I think that's the moral here. Okay. Excellent. Thank you, Zoe. Thank you. Happy Thanksgiving.

I think so. I think that's the moral here. Okay. Excellent. Thank you, Zoe. Thank you. Happy Thanksgiving.

So the reason black plastic spatulas are particularly concerning, and I will caveat this by saying you should really throw out any plastic spatula you have of any color, but black plastic has this particularly noxious place in our product stream because it can't be fully recycled. Recycling plants just ignore black plastic.

So the reason black plastic spatulas are particularly concerning, and I will caveat this by saying you should really throw out any plastic spatula you have of any color, but black plastic has this particularly noxious place in our product stream because it can't be fully recycled. Recycling plants just ignore black plastic.

They can't really see the plastic that's black because they use optical sensors. So that means instead of coming from a clean recycling stream, some black plastic products seem to be made out of dubious recycled products, particularly e-waste, electronic waste, often abroad with very little oversight. And electronics are imbued often with flame retardants.

They can't really see the plastic that's black because they use optical sensors. So that means instead of coming from a clean recycling stream, some black plastic products seem to be made out of dubious recycled products, particularly e-waste, electronic waste, often abroad with very little oversight. And electronics are imbued often with flame retardants.

So we're talking about like the black plastic housing on your computer monitor or your cell phone or your keyboard. Those can all have flame retardants in them to keep them from catching fire. And flame retardants are associated with a huge range of health hazards from, you know, cancer, diabetes, thyroid issues.

So we're talking about like the black plastic housing on your computer monitor or your cell phone or your keyboard. Those can all have flame retardants in them to keep them from catching fire. And flame retardants are associated with a huge range of health hazards from, you know, cancer, diabetes, thyroid issues.

And then they may end up remolded into implements that are touching your food, which they were never meant to be part of. And then you use those implements with heat and oil, which are all things that, like, encourage these compounds in the plastic to migrate out of the object. And then you just eat a lot more of those gross things.

And then they may end up remolded into implements that are touching your food, which they were never meant to be part of. And then you use those implements with heat and oil, which are all things that, like, encourage these compounds in the plastic to migrate out of the object. And then you just eat a lot more of those gross things.

Right. Not all of it is. Certainly, there could be new, pure black plastic that is not coming from recycled e-waste, but there's no way to tell.

Right. Not all of it is. Certainly, there could be new, pure black plastic that is not coming from recycled e-waste, but there's no way to tell.

No, actually, there's lots of toxins in all recycled plastic. But we're mostly just talking about flame retardants here. And in the U.S. and in lots of other places, there are laws against or rules against combining electronic waste with, like, the general consumer recycling flow. So really, these flame retardants are never supposed to get into your consumer products, but they are.

No, actually, there's lots of toxins in all recycled plastic. But we're mostly just talking about flame retardants here. And in the U.S. and in lots of other places, there are laws against or rules against combining electronic waste with, like, the general consumer recycling flow. So really, these flame retardants are never supposed to get into your consumer products, but they are.

Why plastic, though? Well, first of all, from a purely utilitarian perspective, plastic's just a terrible thing to use when you're dealing with a hot pan. I mean, the thing melts. It's just not a very durable product. But plastic of all colors probably has stuff in it that you don't really want interacting with your food. I mean, at the very bottom of this long list is microplastics.

Why plastic, though? Well, first of all, from a purely utilitarian perspective, plastic's just a terrible thing to use when you're dealing with a hot pan. I mean, the thing melts. It's just not a very durable product. But plastic of all colors probably has stuff in it that you don't really want interacting with your food. I mean, at the very bottom of this long list is microplastics.

If you have a piece of plastic that you're using regularly in the kitchen, it's sloughing off microplastics into your food.

If you have a piece of plastic that you're using regularly in the kitchen, it's sloughing off microplastics into your food.

It's like use. Dandruff, just like plastic dandruff is coming off. Exactly like dandruff. I mean, one thing I also notice in people's kitchens is how common a plastic cutting board is. And that's just you slicing chunks of plastic into your tomatoes every single time. And I get why people have it. It's, like, easier to make it sanitary. They wash quite well. But it's just not worth it.

It's like use. Dandruff, just like plastic dandruff is coming off. Exactly like dandruff. I mean, one thing I also notice in people's kitchens is how common a plastic cutting board is. And that's just you slicing chunks of plastic into your tomatoes every single time. And I get why people have it. It's, like, easier to make it sanitary. They wash quite well. But it's just not worth it.

You can use anything else. The other problem with most plastics is that there are other molecules in that material, in that base polymer, that are added there to make the plastic... flexible or make it really thin. And those things are broadly called plasticizers. They include things you might have heard of like phthalates that have also been associated with lots of harmful health outcomes.

You can use anything else. The other problem with most plastics is that there are other molecules in that material, in that base polymer, that are added there to make the plastic... flexible or make it really thin. And those things are broadly called plasticizers. They include things you might have heard of like phthalates that have also been associated with lots of harmful health outcomes.

Basically, there's no good plastic, particularly not in your kitchen.

Basically, there's no good plastic, particularly not in your kitchen.

Can you tell me more about them? Are they hard and sturdy or are they like what you got your takeout in like seven months ago and you're still using them? Both.

Can you tell me more about them? Are they hard and sturdy or are they like what you got your takeout in like seven months ago and you're still using them? Both.

Okay, what's coming? I mean, I get it. It's like there's so much convenience to this. Yes. So typically my understanding is one rule of thumb is that harder, sturdier plastic is maybe shedding fewer phthalates than the very flexible ones, but they could also be shedding other compounds of concern.

Okay, what's coming? I mean, I get it. It's like there's so much convenience to this. Yes. So typically my understanding is one rule of thumb is that harder, sturdier plastic is maybe shedding fewer phthalates than the very flexible ones, but they could also be shedding other compounds of concern.

And the thing about containers is that if you're putting something in that container that is fatty, if it has an oil, an animal fat, anything like that, lipids encourage these compounds to migrate out of the plastic and into the food. These plasticizers I was talking about are lipophilic, meaning they easily transfer when in contact with fats.

And the thing about containers is that if you're putting something in that container that is fatty, if it has an oil, an animal fat, anything like that, lipids encourage these compounds to migrate out of the plastic and into the food. These plasticizers I was talking about are lipophilic, meaning they easily transfer when in contact with fats.

So we're often putting our leftovers in these bins, and almost always those have some kind of fat. And then it also depends if you're heating things in that plastic. Heat is something that degrades plastic quite readily. I see you smirking.

So we're often putting our leftovers in these bins, and almost always those have some kind of fat. And then it also depends if you're heating things in that plastic. Heat is something that degrades plastic quite readily. I see you smirking.

Yeah, it's not the best. It's great that he's eating leftovers. We don't like food waste either. Right, right. Yeah, microwaving plastic is one of those ones that I just don't do anymore. So heat degrades plastic. Right. Cold, my understanding is that cold actually makes plastic a bit more chemically stable, at least in the short term.

Yeah, it's not the best. It's great that he's eating leftovers. We don't like food waste either. Right, right. Yeah, microwaving plastic is one of those ones that I just don't do anymore. So heat degrades plastic. Right. Cold, my understanding is that cold actually makes plastic a bit more chemically stable, at least in the short term.

But then I have seen at least one paper that found that the cycle of heating and freezing, if you use the same container to do both many times, will also enhance chemistry. degradation and also enhance those plasticizers leaching out. And that was a study that was looking at actually farmers.

But then I have seen at least one paper that found that the cycle of heating and freezing, if you use the same container to do both many times, will also enhance chemistry. degradation and also enhance those plasticizers leaching out. And that was a study that was looking at actually farmers.

They put these big plastic tarps over their fields to suppress weeds, and those get heated and frozen over and over again. So I assume you could apply that to consumer plastic goods too. It's all polymers. It's all the same base material, but... That was done in farm fields. Interesting.

They put these big plastic tarps over their fields to suppress weeds, and those get heated and frozen over and over again. So I assume you could apply that to consumer plastic goods too. It's all polymers. It's all the same base material, but... That was done in farm fields. Interesting.

I have now transitioned entirely to glass in my own kitchen. Wow. And I think that that's more of a, like, sort of risk tolerance thing. It's like we all do things that will slowly kill us, and it's sort of choosing which things those are. I mean, we're bombarded by problematic compounds in every aspect of our life, and you cannot eliminate them all.

I have now transitioned entirely to glass in my own kitchen. Wow. And I think that that's more of a, like, sort of risk tolerance thing. It's like we all do things that will slowly kill us, and it's sort of choosing which things those are. I mean, we're bombarded by problematic compounds in every aspect of our life, and you cannot eliminate them all.

So if you want to use your sturdy plastic containers to store fat-neutral things like crackers, that's probably fine.

So if you want to use your sturdy plastic containers to store fat-neutral things like crackers, that's probably fine.

Yeah, it's heavier, which is a pain, but I'm saying yes, definitely. You're saying yes. And I don't know how old your kids are, but some of these things matter a lot for children because one of the big concerns about plastic additives getting into our bodies is that they mimic cells. estrogen and can have endocrine disrupting properties, meaning they mess with your hormone system.

Yeah, it's heavier, which is a pain, but I'm saying yes, definitely. You're saying yes. And I don't know how old your kids are, but some of these things matter a lot for children because one of the big concerns about plastic additives getting into our bodies is that they mimic cells. estrogen and can have endocrine disrupting properties, meaning they mess with your hormone system.

And for a developing hormone system in a child, that's especially crucial. It's also crucial for pregnant people or, you know, people of childbearing age. So there's different moments when it's really critical to avoid this stuff.

And for a developing hormone system in a child, that's especially crucial. It's also crucial for pregnant people or, you know, people of childbearing age. So there's different moments when it's really critical to avoid this stuff.

I have silicone spatulas. They're great. Wooden spatulas and stainless steel spatulas.

I have silicone spatulas. They're great. Wooden spatulas and stainless steel spatulas.

It's a great material. I think people hate that you can't really put them in the dishwasher, but you just rinse it off.

It's a great material. I think people hate that you can't really put them in the dishwasher, but you just rinse it off.

Silicone, to my understanding, is made out of a number of things, but notably silica, which is essentially sand, which is the same thing that glass is made out of. So as far as we know now, silicone is inert. It's considered not reactive with food or with body material, with fat or anything like that. So I think all signs right now point to silicone being a very good choice.

Silicone, to my understanding, is made out of a number of things, but notably silica, which is essentially sand, which is the same thing that glass is made out of. So as far as we know now, silicone is inert. It's considered not reactive with food or with body material, with fat or anything like that. So I think all signs right now point to silicone being a very good choice.

I know that at very high temperatures, I think if you're baking at above 400 or 500 degrees, silicone can emit a gas of some kind. That might be a problem. But if you have to bake in something that isn't stainless steel or ceramic or cast iron, it's not the worst thing in the world. I'm pro-silicon for now. Maybe we'll learn something else later.

I know that at very high temperatures, I think if you're baking at above 400 or 500 degrees, silicone can emit a gas of some kind. That might be a problem. But if you have to bake in something that isn't stainless steel or ceramic or cast iron, it's not the worst thing in the world. I'm pro-silicon for now. Maybe we'll learn something else later.

In a way, it does. BPA was researched intensively, so now we know it's bad, and so now everyone's trying to avoid making things with it. But then what companies went and did was create a bunch of alternatives to BPA, which at least some research finds is not any better than the BPA.

In a way, it does. BPA was researched intensively, so now we know it's bad, and so now everyone's trying to avoid making things with it. But then what companies went and did was create a bunch of alternatives to BPA, which at least some research finds is not any better than the BPA.

The way that chemicals are regulated in this country is no one has to really prove they're safe before they go in the market. And so we have a trickle of information coming out that suggests that the replacements aren't any better. I would say no to plastic sippy cups.

The way that chemicals are regulated in this country is no one has to really prove they're safe before they go in the market. And so we have a trickle of information coming out that suggests that the replacements aren't any better. I would say no to plastic sippy cups.

Exactly. There was this moment in like 2015, 2016 when there was a smattering of studies coming out highlighting the BPA replacements and looking at their potential toxicity and finding that they might just be as endocrine disrupting as BPA was. So the thing with BPA is that it mimics estrogen in the body, which is not something you want to keep adding through your diet.

Exactly. There was this moment in like 2015, 2016 when there was a smattering of studies coming out highlighting the BPA replacements and looking at their potential toxicity and finding that they might just be as endocrine disrupting as BPA was. So the thing with BPA is that it mimics estrogen in the body, which is not something you want to keep adding through your diet.

And it's associated with all kinds of issues, thyroid issues, fertility issues. And researchers on the few studies I saw back then found that the replacements were as estrogenic or more so. Wow.

And it's associated with all kinds of issues, thyroid issues, fertility issues. And researchers on the few studies I saw back then found that the replacements were as estrogenic or more so. Wow.

Yeah, I was actually talking to this pediatrician about this for a story, and she was talking about how the rest of the world gives their kids things in stainless steel containers. Like, it's just, you know, you don't have plastic plates for kids. You just have stainless steel ones that they can throw on the floor.

Yeah, I was actually talking to this pediatrician about this for a story, and she was talking about how the rest of the world gives their kids things in stainless steel containers. Like, it's just, you know, you don't have plastic plates for kids. You just have stainless steel ones that they can throw on the floor.

And I know they make stainless steel ones with, like, the silicone sippy tops and stuff for kids now.

And I know they make stainless steel ones with, like, the silicone sippy tops and stuff for kids now.

This just occurred to me recently. I mean, yeah, presumably if it's black plastic, there is a chance it came from that material stream of recycled e-waste. And the last thing you want is scalding hot, you know, foamy, creamy coffee passing through a little black plastic hole into your mouth. It's not ideal. So I actually just got coffee right before this and did not take a lid.

Yeah. So I'd start by saying that the issue with nonstick Teflon is one brand name for this, but there's a bunch of them. Nonstick pans are coated in a class of chemicals called PFAS. And these are also coating things like our raincoats, our hiking boots, just anything that is nonstick is basically made out of these compounds that we've now found are very bad for our health in high concentrations.

So the people who are really affected by this are the ones living near a plant that made PFAS, and now their water supply has been contaminated for 30 years. Or people who live near an army base where they are using a lot of firefighting foam, which is full of PFAS. But then you zoom in on, like, people using individual products, and it becomes a little hazier.

We do know that the PFAS in your pan becomes unstable at high temperatures, right? So there's lots of warnings on these things that you're not really supposed to use them to cook at temperatures higher than 400 or 500 degrees. But who doesn't accidentally leave their pan on the stove sometimes and scorch it, and then it smells terrible? You're breathing in fumes from PFAS, most likely.

You mentioned scratched coatings. It's super easy to scratch. Actually, the number one response to the throw out your black plastic spatula, when I was like, just get stainless steel ones, people were like, but it'll scratch my nonstick pan. And my response to that is, throw out your nonstick pan. But we can't necessarily ask everyone to do that.

I get that it's so convenient to make an egg in a nonstick pan. I haven't done it in years, but I hear it's great.

I don't mean to sound judgy, but honestly, cast iron is just so much better.

I think when an LLM tells you something that appears to be sentient, it's just mimicking human data.

So I grew up in a house with a parrot when I was young. And bird owners know that cooking with nonstick pans could result in the death of your bird. So I just grew up not having them around. Why? I think it's because the gas volatilizes PFAS, the nonstick compound. Its fumes get in the air, and birds are much more sensitive than humans, like all small animals.

Yeah, it's kind of like that.

I mean, yeah. I feel like it's the kind of thing with, like, dogs and chocolates. Like, they won't die every time, but there was a chance, so we didn't have it in the house. But there was never a discussion about it being bad for animals. human health. It was just like, no, you have a pet bird. You can't have nonstick.

Oh, yes.

I wouldn't do it. My understanding is that I was thinking about like sous vide bags too, you know?

It would violate my personal rule about like putting fatty things next to plastic because I just know the chemistry of that means it encourages migration of compounds out of the plastic and into your food. But my understanding is that the bags specifically designed for this are considered food grade and often, you know, can be labeled phthalate free now.

Everyone was texting me. Someone texted me that the entire town of Burlington, Vermont was throwing their spatulas out the window at the same time.

So there is knowledge about this in the consumer market enough for companies to make things that are less harmful. That's not to say they're not potentially problematic. I mean, the way I think about this is everything could affect you negatively a little bit. And we are so bombarded by problematic things in our everyday life getting into our bodies. And you just want to lower your dose.

So it's kind of choosing how to lower your dose. It's not that your turkey bag is going to kill you. It's that you're just adding a little extra. Right. And you don't need to.

Or you just put a plate over it. Like, you don't even need all this stuff. You know, plastic wrap's gone through all these iterations. It used to be made out of much more harmful stuff, and then they eliminated some of it. I just avoid it.

No.

A bowl.

Okay.

I wrap, you know, you get cheese and you have to wrap it in something so it doesn't go bad immediately. I have, this is going to make me sound so crunchy, but I have those like beeswax wraps. It's like cloth waxed in beeswax. And that's what people, people just use wax paper for everything. You can just do that.

So we know it's not great to be in a home with a natural gas stove. We know that it is associated with higher rates of child asthma, just breathing problems in general. You're inhaling things like benzene. That said, many people have them. I have one. I'm a renter in New York. There's no way I'm not going to have a gas stove. I can't ask my landlord to buy a beautiful induction stove for me.

But one thing that makes a big difference is using your overhead vent. Just gently turning on your family's overhead vent while they're cooking can actually take a lot of the problematic compounds out of the air. Oh, really? Yeah. Okay. It's not totally a fail-safe. It doesn't get it all out. It would be nice if we all had induction stoves.

Absolutely. There's a lot of discussion about how to tell silicone apart from plastic, whether different color plastic was okay, which, like, spoiler alert, probably not, but black is worse. Mm-hmm.

But I also get it does sometimes feel good to cook over fire.

I will say that that is a really elaborate PR job by the natural gas industry, too. Do you remember this? There was this moment when they were hiring Instagram influencers to promote gas stoves and things like that.

Mm-hmm.

As do I. And I only recently learned that some parchment paper is coated in PFAS. That's what makes it nonstick. So you actually want to check. And I recently got parchment paper that's coated in silicone instead and is nice and nonstick because of that and doesn't cost any more.

Right. None of this is going to kill you. But I recently went down the rabbit hole of trying to buy a slow cooker and pressure cooker. Interesting. And I really wanted to get an instant pot. And then I went online and looked at their disclosures on the website. And it turns out those can contain PFAS. I was really surprised by that.

Because the basin of an Instant Pot is just a stainless steel bowl. But my assumption is there's something in the lid that is in the food contact surface that is also PFAS. So just basically many, many other kitchen appliances are coated in a nonstick layer of PFAS. I also tried to buy a...

Toaster oven, like, for the counter, so I wouldn't have to turn on my gas oven every single time I wanted to bake something. And a lot of those, the entire interior is just coated in PFAS. Interesting.

Yeah.

They put it on their website. If you look in, like, the materials and care section of most of these things, it'll let you know.

Well, it's like so important to remember stress is also a major health hazard. So I don't want anyone to get super stressed out about this or blow it out of proportion. You're not going to die because of any of this, but you are just accumulating things you don't need in your body.

Yeah, I walk around all day. There's so many inputs to my body I can't control. But at least I can control the ones in my kitchen. Right.

I hope he thanks you and doesn't get really pissed off. It could go either way.

That seems only reasonable. I will say my, you know, on other Thanksgivings, my two sides of my family have very different ideas about all this. So there's like one home I'd go into where basically everything is, you know, natural products and the other side where everything would be microwaved in plastic. Wow. So how do you handle that situation? You just mostly have to live and let live.

It's like also, you know, if I'm their daughter and they're not reading my articles, there's not much I'm going to do, you know?

Just in case.

You just eat that meal and go back to your own kitchen and think about your own choices. I mean, okay, this is all to say you eat in restaurants all the time. Yes. Restaurants are using plastic constantly. Yeah. Yeah. It's really just like you lower your own dose when you can.

I think so. I think that's the moral here. Okay. Excellent. Thank you, Zoe. Thank you. Happy Thanksgiving.

So the reason black plastic spatulas are particularly concerning, and I will caveat this by saying you should really throw out any plastic spatula you have of any color, but black plastic has this particularly noxious place in our product stream because it can't be fully recycled. Recycling plants just ignore black plastic.

They can't really see the plastic that's black because they use optical sensors. So that means instead of coming from a clean recycling stream, some black plastic products seem to be made out of dubious recycled products, particularly e-waste, electronic waste, often abroad with very little oversight. And electronics are imbued often with flame retardants.

So we're talking about like the black plastic housing on your computer monitor or your cell phone or your keyboard. Those can all have flame retardants in them to keep them from catching fire. And flame retardants are associated with a huge range of health hazards from, you know, cancer, diabetes, thyroid issues.

And then they may end up remolded into implements that are touching your food, which they were never meant to be part of. And then you use those implements with heat and oil, which are all things that, like, encourage these compounds in the plastic to migrate out of the object. And then you just eat a lot more of those gross things.

Right. Not all of it is. Certainly, there could be new, pure black plastic that is not coming from recycled e-waste, but there's no way to tell.

No, actually, there's lots of toxins in all recycled plastic. But we're mostly just talking about flame retardants here. And in the U.S. and in lots of other places, there are laws against or rules against combining electronic waste with, like, the general consumer recycling flow. So really, these flame retardants are never supposed to get into your consumer products, but they are.

Why plastic, though? Well, first of all, from a purely utilitarian perspective, plastic's just a terrible thing to use when you're dealing with a hot pan. I mean, the thing melts. It's just not a very durable product. But plastic of all colors probably has stuff in it that you don't really want interacting with your food. I mean, at the very bottom of this long list is microplastics.

If you have a piece of plastic that you're using regularly in the kitchen, it's sloughing off microplastics into your food.

It's like use. Dandruff, just like plastic dandruff is coming off. Exactly like dandruff. I mean, one thing I also notice in people's kitchens is how common a plastic cutting board is. And that's just you slicing chunks of plastic into your tomatoes every single time. And I get why people have it. It's, like, easier to make it sanitary. They wash quite well. But it's just not worth it.

You can use anything else. The other problem with most plastics is that there are other molecules in that material, in that base polymer, that are added there to make the plastic... flexible or make it really thin. And those things are broadly called plasticizers. They include things you might have heard of like phthalates that have also been associated with lots of harmful health outcomes.

Basically, there's no good plastic, particularly not in your kitchen.

Can you tell me more about them? Are they hard and sturdy or are they like what you got your takeout in like seven months ago and you're still using them? Both.

Okay, what's coming? I mean, I get it. It's like there's so much convenience to this. Yes. So typically my understanding is one rule of thumb is that harder, sturdier plastic is maybe shedding fewer phthalates than the very flexible ones, but they could also be shedding other compounds of concern.

And the thing about containers is that if you're putting something in that container that is fatty, if it has an oil, an animal fat, anything like that, lipids encourage these compounds to migrate out of the plastic and into the food. These plasticizers I was talking about are lipophilic, meaning they easily transfer when in contact with fats.

So we're often putting our leftovers in these bins, and almost always those have some kind of fat. And then it also depends if you're heating things in that plastic. Heat is something that degrades plastic quite readily. I see you smirking.

Yeah, it's not the best. It's great that he's eating leftovers. We don't like food waste either. Right, right. Yeah, microwaving plastic is one of those ones that I just don't do anymore. So heat degrades plastic. Right. Cold, my understanding is that cold actually makes plastic a bit more chemically stable, at least in the short term.

But then I have seen at least one paper that found that the cycle of heating and freezing, if you use the same container to do both many times, will also enhance chemistry. degradation and also enhance those plasticizers leaching out. And that was a study that was looking at actually farmers.

They put these big plastic tarps over their fields to suppress weeds, and those get heated and frozen over and over again. So I assume you could apply that to consumer plastic goods too. It's all polymers. It's all the same base material, but... That was done in farm fields. Interesting.

I have now transitioned entirely to glass in my own kitchen. Wow. And I think that that's more of a, like, sort of risk tolerance thing. It's like we all do things that will slowly kill us, and it's sort of choosing which things those are. I mean, we're bombarded by problematic compounds in every aspect of our life, and you cannot eliminate them all.

So if you want to use your sturdy plastic containers to store fat-neutral things like crackers, that's probably fine.

Yeah, it's heavier, which is a pain, but I'm saying yes, definitely. You're saying yes. And I don't know how old your kids are, but some of these things matter a lot for children because one of the big concerns about plastic additives getting into our bodies is that they mimic cells. estrogen and can have endocrine disrupting properties, meaning they mess with your hormone system.

And for a developing hormone system in a child, that's especially crucial. It's also crucial for pregnant people or, you know, people of childbearing age. So there's different moments when it's really critical to avoid this stuff.

I have silicone spatulas. They're great. Wooden spatulas and stainless steel spatulas.

It's a great material. I think people hate that you can't really put them in the dishwasher, but you just rinse it off.

Silicone, to my understanding, is made out of a number of things, but notably silica, which is essentially sand, which is the same thing that glass is made out of. So as far as we know now, silicone is inert. It's considered not reactive with food or with body material, with fat or anything like that. So I think all signs right now point to silicone being a very good choice.

I know that at very high temperatures, I think if you're baking at above 400 or 500 degrees, silicone can emit a gas of some kind. That might be a problem. But if you have to bake in something that isn't stainless steel or ceramic or cast iron, it's not the worst thing in the world. I'm pro-silicon for now. Maybe we'll learn something else later.

In a way, it does. BPA was researched intensively, so now we know it's bad, and so now everyone's trying to avoid making things with it. But then what companies went and did was create a bunch of alternatives to BPA, which at least some research finds is not any better than the BPA.

The way that chemicals are regulated in this country is no one has to really prove they're safe before they go in the market. And so we have a trickle of information coming out that suggests that the replacements aren't any better. I would say no to plastic sippy cups.

Exactly. There was this moment in like 2015, 2016 when there was a smattering of studies coming out highlighting the BPA replacements and looking at their potential toxicity and finding that they might just be as endocrine disrupting as BPA was. So the thing with BPA is that it mimics estrogen in the body, which is not something you want to keep adding through your diet.

And it's associated with all kinds of issues, thyroid issues, fertility issues. And researchers on the few studies I saw back then found that the replacements were as estrogenic or more so. Wow.

Yeah, I was actually talking to this pediatrician about this for a story, and she was talking about how the rest of the world gives their kids things in stainless steel containers. Like, it's just, you know, you don't have plastic plates for kids. You just have stainless steel ones that they can throw on the floor.

And I know they make stainless steel ones with, like, the silicone sippy tops and stuff for kids now.