All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
Jared Isaacman: What went wrong at NASA | The All-In Interview
Wed, 04 Jun 2025
(0:00) David Friedberg welcomes Jared Isaacman (1:10) Jared's background: billion-dollar founder, pilot, commercial astronaut (7:15) Relationship with Elon Musk, road to becoming a commercial astronaut (16:37) Becoming Trump's nominee to lead NASA, the major issues at NASA and his plan to fix things (31:52) Breaking down NASA's proposed budget cuts, the space race against China, private vs public space industry (48:31) The truth behind Jared's nomination being withdrawn by President Trump Follow Jared: https://x.com/rookisaacman Follow the besties: https://x.com/chamath https://x.com/Jason https://x.com/DavidSacks https://x.com/friedberg Follow on X: https://x.com/theallinpod Follow on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theallinpod Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@theallinpod Follow on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/allinpod Intro Music Credit: https://rb.gy/tppkzl https://x.com/yung_spielburg Intro Video Credit: https://x.com/TheZachEffect Referenced in the show: https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/posts/114605559474286180 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pv01sSq44w https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1439412791815950336 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaJmUUtr2SI
Chapter 1: Who is Jared Isaacman?
Jared Isaacman was nominated by President Trump to become the 15th administrator of NASA in December. He passed out of the Senate committee in May and was set to be confirmed by the full Senate this week. However, on Friday, President Trump withdrew his nomination for Isaacman. We asked Jared to sit down with us for a conversation.
We dive into everything, his experiences as a successful entrepreneur, fighter jet pilot, commander of the world's first all-civilian spaceflight, and the first civilian to conduct a spacewalk, what he saw in his six months studying NASA, how American government bureaucracy has eroded its performance and puts the nation at risk in the great space race underway with China.
And what really happened? Was it a discovery about prior donations to Democratic candidates or an association with Elon Musk that lost him the nomination? Here's my conversation with Jared Isaacman.
I'm going all in. All right, besties. I think that was another epic discussion. People love the interviews. I could hear him talk for hours. Absolutely. We crushed your questions. Admit it. We are giving people ground truth data to underwrite your own opinion. What'd you guys think? That was fun. That was great.
Jared, welcome. I, like many space enthusiasts, was thrilled for your nomination to lead NASA as the 15th administrator of the agency. Founded in 1958, the year after the Russians put Sputnik into orbit, NASA's perhaps, in my opinion, the US government's most pioneering agency, having organized and led our exploration missions to the moon, Mars, the outer solar system, and beyond.
as well as the launch of important scientific missions to observe the Earth, to observe our solar system and the deep universe, and of course, the installation and operation of the ISS. And you seemed really qualified for the job as a business manager, a successful entrepreneur, flight and space enthusiast.
So I'm really curious to hear your views on NASA, the space industry overall, the race with China, and frankly, hear a little bit about what the heck just happened with your nomination. A lot of people have a lot of questions that we'd love to hear your point of view on. So I thank you for joining me today, Jared.
I'm thrilled to be here to chat. And as someone who's been a space enthusiast since kindergarten, whether it's through the lens of commercial space or, you know, the great space race from the 1960s or NASA of today, like these are all subjects I get pretty charged up about. So love to chat about it.
What inspired you to get into space? You went to Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University and you later became an entrepreneur, but were you always kind of obsessed with space and did you always dream of doing what you got to do last year, which was walk in space?
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Chapter 2: What led to Jared's nomination to lead NASA?
But my pursuits kind of in parallel of business and aviation has existed, you know, really since I was a teenager.
So you're running this business. So Shift4, just for those who are listening, is a payment processing company that is a public company today, $8.5 billion market cap. So you've built an incredible business. And then on the side, my understanding is you've flown like 7,000 hours in fighter jets, and you've tried to beat the circumnavigation record a couple of times now. So were you kind of...
going to work and then on the weekends flying? I mean, how did you kind of balance running a company trying to do that today while balancing this podcast? I can tell you it's really hard to do that and anything else. It's like, how did you do that?
Well, I mean, you know, again, I started my business at 16. I started flying a couple of years after that. You know, this is before you have a, you know, a family and other responsibilities. So like literally all I was doing was working and flying, mostly flying at night, which was great. I did that around the world record flight. Didn't get it in 08, broke that record in 09.
We did it to raise funds for Make-A-Wish Foundation, which was cool. And it was a great challenge. And then later on started flying air shows, which was great. And we did a lot to raise money for Make-A-Wish there.
And then we kind of took the air show flying, which was just maximum fun, super adrenaline, and was like, we're doing loops and rolls to music, 10 feet off the ground, 18 inches between our wings. We probably should pivot this to something that keeps the fun factor up, but has some commercial intent, also helps the country. So we started a defense company called Drakken.
We wound up assembling the world's largest fleet of fighter jets, jets just like this behind me. And we were professional bad guys.
for the department of defense the air force like we would fly as aggressors just like in top gun replicating russian and chinese iranian tactics i literally i mean i remember at christmas parties in you know 2014 2015 speaking to the to the workforce i was like i hope you all know next to commercial space and what elon's doing at spacex this is the second coolest company like we get to be professional bad guys all the time it was awesome so i again i've had two awesome parallel careers um
But hey, running two companies like nothing compared to Elon, I think I can't even he's got to be up to like a half a dozen CEO titles in parallel right now, not to mention trying to save the, you know, the country, you know, and get it back on a good fiscal footing. So it's my responsibilities are pale in comparison.
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Chapter 3: What are the major issues at NASA?
Yeah, you know, I think almost every one of the senators on both sides of the aisle made that assumption and asked a lot of questions on that. And I said, look, Elon is one of the most accomplished, if not the most accomplished entrepreneur in modern history. Every one of his companies sets out to solve some of the greatest engineering problems for all humankind.
Even his, you know, kind of super selfless service to the government of trying and getting us back on, again, like I said, sound fiscal footing. I admire a lot of what he does. But honestly, and I told the senators, my connection is I paid his company to go to space twice.
And look, if there was more than just SpaceX out there offering the service and you had competition, I probably would have paid less. So if anything, I'm very pro-competition in this regard. And, you know, I don't consider myself beholden to Elon at all. I want to see all of commercial space succeed. I'm a huge space enthusiast.
Let's go through that. So you met Elon. Did you get involved as an investor in SpaceX along the way? How did the Inspiration4 mission come to be?
In 2020, I did hear that SpaceX was doing another one of its secondary rounds. And I was connected through I think it was Citi. And I wound up speaking to the CFO at SpaceX and he's like, no, look, the funding round is closed and we're kind of pretty selective on who we let in. And I was like, okay, great.
Well, hey, back in 2008, I actually got the first offer to pilot the first Dragon spacecraft, which is wild to think about, like 2008. And even if I can't be an investor at some point or another, I'd love to have an opportunity. And he was like, well, can't be an investor now, but we could talk about a human spaceflight mission. And I had no idea I was going to have an opportunity to be the first.
I assumed there was a lot of people in front. And man, it was what a privilege to be able to do that, be part of mission design and select a crew of inspiring individuals and raise a quarter of a billion dollars for St. Jude. And it was just a successful mission. It helped open the door for a lot of other commercial missions to come. So awesome experience.
Yep.
And that was just truly like a momentous... It was just so beautiful to watch. And I remember it was also like a tough year because it was a year after COVID. So it was so great to see that happening.
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Chapter 4: How does NASA's budget impact its missions?
Chapter 5: What is the space race with China?
Chapter 6: How did Jared's background influence his space career?
We dive into everything, his experiences as a successful entrepreneur, fighter jet pilot, commander of the world's first all-civilian spaceflight, and the first civilian to conduct a spacewalk, what he saw in his six months studying NASA, how American government bureaucracy has eroded its performance and puts the nation at risk in the great space race underway with China.
And what really happened? Was it a discovery about prior donations to Democratic candidates or an association with Elon Musk that lost him the nomination? Here's my conversation with Jared Isaacman.
I'm going all in. All right, besties. I think that was another epic discussion. People love the interviews. I could hear him talk for hours. Absolutely. We crushed your questions. Admit it. We are giving people ground truth data to underwrite your own opinion. What'd you guys think? That was fun. That was great.
Jared, welcome. I, like many space enthusiasts, was thrilled for your nomination to lead NASA as the 15th administrator of the agency. Founded in 1958, the year after the Russians put Sputnik into orbit, NASA's perhaps, in my opinion, the US government's most pioneering agency, having organized and led our exploration missions to the moon, Mars, the outer solar system, and beyond.
as well as the launch of important scientific missions to observe the Earth, to observe our solar system and the deep universe, and of course, the installation and operation of the ISS. And you seemed really qualified for the job as a business manager, a successful entrepreneur, flight and space enthusiast.
So I'm really curious to hear your views on NASA, the space industry overall, the race with China, and frankly, hear a little bit about what the heck just happened with your nomination. A lot of people have a lot of questions that we'd love to hear your point of view on. So I thank you for joining me today, Jared.
I'm thrilled to be here to chat. And as someone who's been a space enthusiast since kindergarten, whether it's through the lens of commercial space or, you know, the great space race from the 1960s or NASA of today, like these are all subjects I get pretty charged up about. So love to chat about it.
What inspired you to get into space? You went to Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University and you later became an entrepreneur, but were you always kind of obsessed with space and did you always dream of doing what you got to do last year, which was walk in space?
Yeah, so this is all my parents' fault. They skimped out on a babysitter as a kid and just put me in front of the TV. So I was watching movies like Top Gun, The Right Stuff, Space Camp, the movie, you know, 1980s movie where if you go to space camp, a robot's going to launch you into space. This was all stuff in like my elementary school years.
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Chapter 7: What was the inspiration behind the Inspiration4 mission?
And I was like, all right, I'm totally in. And we contemplated other missions, you know, a follow on to Polaris Dawn and then the first crewed flight of Starship. But the nomination came in and, you know, had to put my my fun space career on hold to for an incredible opportunity to serve the country and contribute to the world's greatest space agency.
So let's get into that now. How did the conversation lead to you becoming the nominee to administer NASA? Were you in conversations with Elon first? Is that how this kind of began for you?
No, so... And I think that's another thing that almost every senator wanted to ask is, weren't you Elon's guy in this? I have no doubt. I mean, look, he helped the president win the election. He was in Air Force One, Marine One. He was at Mar-a-Lago throughout the campaign. I'm sure he had inputs. I was getting text messages from generals.
That I got to know when I built, you know, helped build that defense company, Drakken. That's where we flew all the fighter jets. And, you know, they were in now positions of influence and said, would you like to serve in the administration? And it wasn't even just NASA. I mean, there were roles from Treasury to the Department, you know, to the Air Force.
And I was like, I am honored to contribute anyway. You know, I've had I've been, you know, relatively apolitical. But if I've had one political position that I've been pounding the table on since I since I was exposed to the defense industry at Drakken, it's the competitiveness of the nation. And that's because I saw when we were replicating.
you know, enemy tactics in 2015 in fighter jets, the gap between our capabilities and the bad guys was wide. And you felt very confident. And every year it started to shrink. And it's like, what is going on here? Why are we paralyzed? Why are we slowing down while the Chinese especially are moving wicked fast?
And I've spoken out about it from time to time on where I think some of the problems are and over consolidation in the defense industry. So anyway, I was absolutely honored to have a chance to serve. I'm sure Elon contributed into the, you know, was supportive in it, but it wasn't a number of folks. And I got a call from Howard Lutnick, who's leading the transition team.
And he did a phone interview. And the next thing you know, like 48 hours later, I was at Mar-a-Lago.
He said, hop on a plane, come out here. Having a lot of friends of mine who are serving in this administration, your story sounds familiar, that folks that are close to this whole group that was sitting at Mar-a-Lago for several weeks and months after the election, I've heard a lot of similar stories that folks got called saying, hey, would you like to consider something?
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Chapter 8: What needs to change at NASA for future success?
Good science. Yeah, absolutely. Well, let's talk about Artemis. I think this is a big piece that the American public doesn't fully grok. that we have this effort. And maybe you can just lay out for us the case for Artemis, lay out for us the case for Mars, tell us about the relationship between the two and the timelines.
Sure.
And why? Yeah. Why are we doing?
Let's just say I am in the return to the moon camp. That doesn't mean like, you know, and I know that, you know, Elon is very focused on on Mars and he has a lot of great reasons why, including just the survival of our species. I mean, long term, it is the right move.
I remember during my hearing, one senator was really grilling me a lot of like, well, really, what's the difference between, you know, moon and Mars? And, you know, isn't moon the stepping stone? I'm like, well, one's a planet, you know, and, you know, it has an atmosphere. And if you looked at the moon, it doesn't look pretty. I mean, it's getting beat up all the time.
It has no protection from, you know, for solar radiation. So reality is like you should go to the moon if it because for 35 years we said we were going to. And I think that's very important. You know, it's very late in the game to say, well, we did it in the 60s and early 70s. You know, that would have been the fine position to state the entire time that we've done it and we're moving on.
But we didn't. For 35 years, we said we're going back and we spent over $100 billion of taxpayer dollars saying we were going to do it. And for us not to be able to do it now and watch China do it, like I said, it signals a far greater disease across our government and how our system operates. And I don't think we want that reckoning. So look, we paid for the hardware anyway.
Let's go back, but let's parallel going to Mars. So that's what Artemis is really about. I mean, you can say Artemis is about Mars too, but that's like 100 years down the line. And like I said, it's a giant disposable rocket program that repurposes shuttle hardware. It's incredibly expensive. We signed up a lot of international partners to support it because we like collecting flags.
Um, and it doesn't necessarily always mean that what they're contributing to is in the best interest of the program. Case in point, you know, we had, you know, gateway, man, like this is going down a rabbit hole of a lot of things because of the shortcomings of the vehicle, but it's expensive. It's disposable.
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