Eat Away Kidney Stones

127 Reflections From 2025 At The Kidney Dietitian

24 Dec 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Melanie shares how The Kidney Dietitian has grown over the past year, her reflections, and goals moving into 2026. Sending a HUGE THANK YOU to each li...

126 The 2-Minute Kidney Stone Pep Talk

17 Dec 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Save this short and sweet episode for the next time you are feeling frustrated, anxious, nervous or sad about kidney stones!   Submit a question for ...

125 Disordered Eating vs. a Healthy Relationship with Food [w/ Mia Greco MS, MPH, RD, LDN]

10 Dec 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Every day, I see people falling into disordered eating habits out of fear of eating and getting another kidney stone. I was thrilled to welcome Mia Gr...

124 Eating with Kidney Stones Around the Holidays

03 Dec 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Worried about eating as we move into the holiday season? This episode is for you!   Submit a question for Melanie to answer on the podcast! Connect w...

123 Magnesium and Your Kidneys: Everything You Need to Know [w/ Jen Hernandez RD, CSR]

26 Nov 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Magnesium is really having a moment in the spotlight. In this fascinating episode, Melanie and fellow kidney dietitian Jen Hernandez RD, CSR dive into...

122 Vegetarian or Vegan Diets & Kidney Stones

19 Nov 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Ever wonder if it is ok (or even good!?) to follow a vegetarian or vegan diet with kidney stones? Melanie breaks down the benefits and risks in this e...

121 A Registered Dietitian's Experience With Kidney Stones [w/ Courtney Watring RD, LDN]

12 Nov 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Yes! Dietitians can OBVIOUSLY get kidney stones too! In this episode, Melanie chats with a fellow dietitian who has been struggling with kidney stones...

120 Will Vitamin D Cause Kidney Stones?

05 Nov 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Is it ok for people with kidney stones to take vitamin D supplements? Melanie dives into the answer! Letavernier E, Daudon M. Vitamin D, Hypercalciuri...

119 Eggs & Kidney Stones

29 Oct 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Is it ok for people with kidney stones to eat eggs? How many is ok? How is it best to eat them? Melanie dives into everything people with kidney stone...

118 Eating Out With Kidney Stones

22 Oct 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Ever wonder how (and if it is even ok!?) to eat at restaurants with kidney stones? Melanie gives her best tips and advice for changing your mindset ab...

117 Updates in Kidney Stone Research & Oxalate [w/ Dr. Kristina Penniston PhD, RDN]

15 Oct 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Internationally renouned kidney stone dietitian & researcher. Dr. Kristina Penniston PhD RDN, dives into updates in research for kidney stones, what d...

116 Does Phosphorus in Food Matter for Calcium Phosphate Kidney Stones?

08 Oct 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Phosphorus isn't talked about very often in kidney stone nutrition - but does it matter for people with calcium phosphate kidney stones? Melanie sheds...

115 What Does Your Thyroid Have To Do With Kidney Stones?

01 Oct 2025

Contributed by Lukas

There is a clear connection between hyperparathyroidism and kidney stones. This episode dives into a listener question and the connection between thes...

114 Can Too Much Protein Cause Kidney Stones? [and how much to eat]

24 Sep 2025

Contributed by Lukas

What is the deal with protein and kidney stones? How much can I have? Does it matter for ME? Is all protein the same? In this episode, Melanie dives i...

113 How Pelvic Floor Physical Therapy Can Be Life Changing! [w/ Erin Lenihan PT, DBT]

17 Sep 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Most people don't know about all of the amazing things your pelvic floor does for you - and how many uncomfortable symptoms you might have been ignori...

112 What Kind of Bread Is Best For Kidney Stones?

10 Sep 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Who doesn't love bread? Melanie dives into how and why bread should fit in any kidney stone diet, what type of bread is best, and why! Blog: Is Rice ...

111 Potassium & Your Kidneys

03 Sep 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Potassium is a HOT topic in kidney disease - but doesn't get the focus is deserves for kidney stones. In This episode, Melanie breaks down potassium i...

110 Label Reading For Kidney Stones

27 Aug 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Ever wonder how to make sense of all those number on Nutrition Facts labels? Never fear! In this episode, Melanie walks you through what is most impor...

109 What Is Weight Bias and How It Might Be Affecting Your Health [w/ Dr. Robyn Pashby]

20 Aug 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Dr. Robyn Pashby is a clinical psychologist with a special interest in weight bias. You will not want to miss this fascinating conversation about how ...

108 Wait...I Have To Drink HOW Much Water For Kidney Stones?

13 Aug 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Unsurprisingly, a common question people with kidney stones ask is "how much water do I have to drink"? Melanie answers a listener question about this...

107 Salt & Kidney Stones 101

06 Aug 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Staying away from too much salt is KEY for kidney stones. But why!? And how much salt should you eat? And how in the WORLD do you actually FOLLOW a lo...

106 Can I Make Collagen Safer For Kidney Stones With Milk?

30 Jul 2025

Contributed by Lukas

If you listened to episode 38, you know that there is potential harm of collagen protein for people with oxalate kidney stones. In this episode, Melan...

105 What Does Your Gut Microbiome Have To Do With Kidney Stones? [w/ Dr. Aaron Miller]

23 Jul 2025

Contributed by Lukas

The gut microbiome is a HOT topic in ALL areas of health. Unsurprisingly, the bacteria that live in your intestines have a HUGE impact on kidney stone...

104 The Most Common Mistake People Make For Kidney Stones

16 Jul 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Melanie dives into the most common mistake she sees people make when they are trying to prevent kidney stones. And, shares how to avoid it and what to...

103 Cheese & Kidney Stones

09 Jul 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Attn: Cheese Lovers! This episode is for you! Learn all about how cheese is an excellent option for people with kidney stones, the best cheese choices...

102 Kidney Stones At Summer Cookouts

02 Jul 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Eating at summer BBQs is stressful for a lot of people with kidney stones. Will there be anything these you can eat? What will you say to (well-meani...

101 The Truth Behind MSG [with Cara Harbstreet MS, RD]

25 Jun 2025

Contributed by Lukas

In this MUST listen episode, Melanie chats all things MSG with fellow dietitian Cara Harbstreet MS, RD, Owner of Street Smart Nutrition. There is SO m...

100 Toxic Superfoods: Truth or Toxic Misinformation? A Kidney Stone Dietitian Review

18 Jun 2025

Contributed by Lukas

If you've read or heard of the book Toxic Superfoods by Sally Norton, this episode is a must listen! Toxic Superfoods is a perfect example of the comm...

099 Don't Forget! Drink Water This Summer!

11 Jun 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Kidney stones are more common in the summer. Melanie dives into some interesting research about kidney stones and temperature, and shares some tips to...

098 Am I Doomed If I Have A Family History Of Kidney Stones?

04 Jun 2025

Contributed by Lukas

It is common for kidney stones to "run in families", but does this mean you are destined to be a stone former? Melanie dives into kidney stones, genet...

097 Why Do Dietitians Endlessly Talk About Fruits and Veggies For Your Kidneys? [with Emily Campbell RD, CDE, MScFN]

28 May 2025

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, fellow kidney dietitian Emily Campbell RD, CDE, MScFN and Melanie chat about why the boring advice to "eat more fruits and vegetables...

096 How Does Sugar Cause Kidney Stones?

21 May 2025

Contributed by Lukas

The data is clear that people who eat more added sugar tend to have more kidney stones. But why? Melanie breaks down the science of sugar and kidney s...

095 No! You Don't HAVE To Be Peeing All The Time! [w/ Bianca Gallub MS, ORT/L]

14 May 2025

Contributed by Lukas

One of the biggest barriers to drinking all of that water to prevent kidney stones is needing to go to the bathroom all the time! We were thrilled to ...

094 Can Ozempic Cause Kidney Stones?

07 May 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Can ozempic and the other popular GLP1 agonist medications cause kidney stones? Melanie gives an update on with the research says, as well as her advi...

093 Diving into plant protein for kidneys [with Lindsay Ducharme RD, CSR, LDN]

30 Apr 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Melanie chats with Lindsay Ducharme RD, CSR, LDN, Owner of Vital Kidney Nutrition about what plant proteins EVEN ARE, why they are so good for kidneys...

092 Review of the 2025 National Kidney Foundation Meeting in Boston

23 Apr 2025

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Melanie shares some reflections of her time at the National Kidney Foundation's sping meeting for healthcare professionals. She gives...

091 What If I Can't Drink Milk?

16 Apr 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Most of us know by now how important calcium is for people with calcium kidney stones. But what if you don't drink milk? Melanie shares what she recom...

090 An Honest Analysis of Kidney Stone Care

09 Apr 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Once you have one kidney stone, there is a 75% chance you'll have another in your life. Melanie dives into the healthcare system and why that percenta...

089 Mental Health & Kidney Stones [with Michelle Rowlett MSW, LICSW]

02 Apr 2025

Contributed by Lukas

The impact of kidney stones on mental health is a significant and often overlooked aspect of living with kidney stones. In this episode, Melanie chats...

088 Should I Boil My Vegetables To Get Rid Of Oxalate?

26 Mar 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Should people with kidney stones boil their veggies to cut down oxalate? Melanie weighs in with a short and sweet answer.   Submit a question for Mel...

087 Do I Need Medicine To Prevent Kidney Stones?

19 Mar 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Melanie dives into when and how medicine can help you prevent kidney stones, and how medications should work in tandem with diet changes. Survey to s...

086 How Much Fat Should I Eat For Kidney Stones?

12 Mar 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Ever wonder if fat matters for kidney stones? In this episode, Melanie talks about how fat fits into a healthy dietary pattern for kidney stones and t...

085 How Your DOCTOR Can Help You Prevent Kidney Stones [with Dr. Paul Dreyer MD]

05 Mar 2025

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Melanie chats with a fellow kidney stone prevention enthusiast, Dr. Paul Dreyer. Dr. Paul is passionate about helping people with kid...

084 Is the Diet for Kidney Stones and Kidney Disease the Same?

26 Feb 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Many people are trying to balance nutrition for BOTH kidney stones and kidney disease. In this episode, Melanie dives into some of the similarities - ...

083 How Can We "Make America Healthy Again?" [with Dr. Jessica Knurick PhD, RDN]

19 Feb 2025

Contributed by Lukas

You will NOT want to miss this very special episode with Dr. Jessica Knurick, a dietitian that specializes in public health. She and Melanie dive into...

082 The Overlap of Heart and Kidney Stone Nutrition [with Patricia Kolesa MS, RDN]

12 Feb 2025

Contributed by Lukas

At first glance, healthy eating for heart health and kidney stones can feel COMPLETELY opposite. But, I promise that when you start to focus on what R...

081 Reflections From the 2025 R.O.C.K Society Scientific Meeting

05 Feb 2025

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Melanie shares what she learned from the premiere kidney stone research conference this month. She covers what type of kidney stone r...

080 Vitamin C, Multivitamins & Kidney Stones

29 Jan 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Ever wonder if it is ok to take a multivitamin with kidney stones? In this episode, Melanie tackles this big question and gives advice for the specifi...

079 YES! Food DOES Make A Difference For Kidney Stones [with Terrie Holewinski MS, RDN]

22 Jan 2025

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Melanie chats with Terrie Holewinski MS, RDN about how important kidney stone PREVENTION is, and how this is different than standard ...

078 The Mental Side of Dealing with Kidney Stones [with Maggie Pollard]

15 Jan 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Melanie chats with kidney stone patient, Maggie, about how dealing with multiple stones, surgeries and restrictive diets took a serious toll on her me...

077 Can You Prevent Kidney Stones With Medullary Sponge Kidney Disease?

08 Jan 2025

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Melanie talks about a rare congenital condition called medullary sponge disease (MSD) or medullary sponge kidney (MSK) and how people...

076 How To Make Your 2025 New Years Resolutions STICK [with Laura Koller MS, MSEd, RD, LDN, CDCES]

02 Jan 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Happy New Year! If you made ANY resolutions to kick off 2025, you won't want to miss this amazing episode with behavior change specialist Laura Koller...

075 Reflections From 2024 At The Kidney Dietitian

25 Dec 2024

Contributed by Lukas

If you can believe it, 2025 is right around the corner. In this episode, Melanie reflects over how The Kidney Dietitian has grown in 2024 and shares h...

074 Mexican Food & Kidney Stones

18 Dec 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Melanie breaks down traditional Mexican food (yum!) and how it can fit in any kidney stone friendly diet. Chen W, Hong Y, Man S, Xu T...

073 What Do Race & Poverty Have To Do With Kidney Health? [with Vanessa Connolly RDN, CSR, LD]

04 Dec 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Melanie chats with fellow dietitian Vanessa Connolly RDN, CSR, LD, Owner & CEO Grain and Green Kidneys, about healthcare disparities, why they exist a...

072 Is The Zero Oxalate Carnivore Diet Good For Kidney Stones?

27 Nov 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this controversial episode, Melanie dives into the research and health claims behind the growing-in-popularity Carnivore Diet, including the claim ...

071 Is Rice Ok For Kidney Stones?

20 Nov 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Is rice a good choice for people with kidney stones? What kind of rice is best? Melanie gives her recommendations in response to a listener question. ...

070 Gut Bacteria, Probiotics & Kidney Health [w/ Annabel Birute PhD, RD, FNKF, FASN]

13 Nov 2024

Contributed by Lukas

You will NOT want to miss this episode with dietitian researcher Annabel Birute PhD, RD, FNKF, FASN. She and Melanie talk about how gut bacteria can i...

069 Is The TheraLith Supplement Legit?

06 Nov 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Is there any evidence that the popular TheraLith supplement prevents kidney stones? Melanie dives into what is actually IN this supplement and if peop...

068 "Normal" 24-Hour Urine Test and High Urine Calcium

30 Oct 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Melanie talks about some of the nuances when looking at 24-hour urine collections. She also tackles a listener question about high ur...

067 The Most Common Misconceptions About Nutrition For Kidney Disease [with Jen Hernandez RDN, CSR, LDN]

23 Oct 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Melanie chats with fellow kidney dietitian Jen Hernandez RDN, CSR, LDN about the most common myths she hears about nutrition for kidn...

066 What Is A "Kidney Stone Friendly" Recipe?

16 Oct 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Melanie talks about what exactly a "kidney stone friendly" recipe is - and how to turn any recipe into healthful option for a person ...

065 "Studying" For Your 24 Hour Urine Collection

09 Oct 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Melanie answers a listener question about how to make your 24-hour urine collection as accurate as possible and is it ok if you drink a lot more water...

064 How Your Childhood Can Shape The Food You Eat Now [with Dave Grotto MS, RDN, LDN, FAND]

02 Oct 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Many people with kidney stones struggle with a fear of eating and an overall poor relationship with food and their bodies. Listen to this incredibly f...

063 When Should You See A Dietitian For Stones?

25 Sep 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Melanie shares her thoughts about when and WHY people with kidney stones should work with a dietitian.   Work with a Kidney Stone Di...

062 The Genetics of Kidney Stones

18 Sep 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Are kidney stones genetic? In this episode, Melanie breaks down the genetics of kidney stones and how that impacts prevention.   Howles SA, Thakker R...

061 Help! I'm Losing Weight On A "Kidney Stone Diet"

11 Sep 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Losing weight when you don't want to is a big problem for many people just starting out trying to make diet changes for kidney stones. In this episode...

060 The Overwhelming Cost of Kidney Stones

04 Sep 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Ever wonder how much kidney stones cost? In this episode, Melanie dives into the economic burden of kidney stones to people in the US. Hyams ES, Matl...

059 How To Get A 24 Hour Urine Test

28 Aug 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Haven't had a 24-hour urine test yet? Melanie gives her tips for getting that test, and what to do with the results!   Kidney Stone Nutrition School ...

058 Connection Between Bones and Stones

21 Aug 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Did you know people with calcium kidney stones are at much greater risk for bone disease? In this episode, Melanie talks about why this connection exi...

057 Can You Drink Tea With Kidney Stones?

14 Aug 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Ah. The never ending debate. Is tea ok for people with kidney stones? Melanie dives into what the research reveals about the connection between tea an...

056 Kidney Stones In The Summer

07 Aug 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Kidney stones go up during the hot summer months. What can you do to say out of the ER this summer?   Fakheri RJ, Goldfarb DS. Ambient temperature a...

055 Chinese Food On A Kidney Friendly Diet [with Edith Yang RDN, CSR, CLT, FAND]

31 Jul 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Melanie chats with Edith Yang, a Chinese American dietitian about how Chinese and other Asian dishes can be part of a kidney-friendly...

054 What In The World Are Struvite Kidney Stones?

24 Jul 2024

Contributed by Lukas

This episode answers all of your burning questions about struvite (aka staghorn) kidney stones. What are they, who is most likely to get them.why do t...

053 What Can I Do To Get My Urine Citrate Up?

17 Jul 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Melanie answers a listener question about urine citrate. She dives into what citrate is, why it is so important, and what we can do n...

052 Kidney Stones In Airline Pilots [with Jill Mongene MAcc, RD]

10 Jul 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Melanie chats with Jill Mongene, a dietitian specializing in nutrition for pilots. Having a kidney stone could put a pilot's career i...

051 Woo Hoo! The Long Awaited Updated Oxalate List From Harvard Is Here!

03 Jul 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Melanie shares the exciting news that Harvard has updated their gold standard oxalate list with a TON of new foods. Melanie talks mor...

050 Kidney Stone "Diets" Don't Have To Be So Hard [with Kathy Frieze]

26 Jun 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Melanie chats with one of the original students in Kidney Stone Nutrition School about what it is REALLY like to live and eat with ki...

049 Meet Our Newest Kidney Stone Dietitian! [with Kelly Nemec MS, RD]

19 Jun 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Exciting news at The Kidney Dietitian! We now offer 1:1 appointments with a kidney stone dietitian! Kelly Nemec is our first dietitian ready to meet w...

048 Risky Weight Loss Tactics That Can Cause Kidney Stones

12 Jun 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Last week, Melanie spoke to a group of weight loss dietitians about "risky weight loss tactics that could cause kidney stones". The interest was so gr...

047 How Dietitians Really Approach Healthy Eating [with Michelle McMurtery RD, CSR & Michelle Zachry MPH, RD]

05 Jun 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Melanie sits down with two other kidney dietitians that specialize in kidney disease and talk about how most dietitians think about h...

046 Promoting Kidney Stone Education At The National Kidney Foundation Conference

29 May 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Melanie spent a week in Long Beach, CA at the annual National Kidney Foundation this month. She shares her reflections about the state of kidney stone...

045 Can I Eat Black Pepper With Kidney Stones?

22 May 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode Melanie BUSTS the myth that black pepper is "high" in oxalate. Blog: The Lowdown on Low Oxalate Spices     Submit a question for Me...

044 Is It Ok To Follow A Keto (Or Low Carb) Diet With Kidney Stones?

15 May 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Melanie explores the research showing a strong association between low carb diets and kidney stones and dives into why that might be....

043 What Does Your Dentist Have To Do With Kidney Stones? [with Dr. Meme Salem]

08 May 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Melanie chats with her dentist about the surprisingly important role nutrition plays in oral and dental health. Plus, how all of that...

042 What's Up With Calcium Phosphate Kidney Stones?

01 May 2024

Contributed by Lukas

We talk a LOT about oxalate here at The Kidney Dietitian. About 75% of kidney stones are made from calcium oxalate. Never fear calcium phosphate stone...

041 Getting Urine Calcium Down: The CRUX of Kidney Stone Prevention

24 Apr 2024

Contributed by Lukas

High urine calcium is the MOST common cause of kidney stones. In this episode, Melanie breaks down what to do if you find high urine calcium on your 2...

040 How Is Dairy Protein Different For Kidney Stones?

17 Apr 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Melanie breaks down the often missed nuanced recommendation for "eat less protein" to prevent kidney stones. As always, there is MUCH...

039 Everything You Need to Know About Cottage Cheese & Kidney Stones

10 Apr 2024

Contributed by Lukas

If you don't love yogurt, is cottage cheese a good choice for people with kidney stones? Melanie weighs in on all things cottage cheese and kidney sto...

038 Collagen and Kidney Stones: Is It Safe?

03 Apr 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Melanie answers a listener question about collagen and kidney stones. Are collagen supplements ok for people with kidney stones? List...

037 Chat With A Kidney Stone Urologist [with Dr. Luke Reynolds]

27 Mar 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Melanie talks with Dr. Luke Reynolds, a urologist at the University of Chicago who has a special interest in kidney stone treatment. ...

036 How To Get A 24 Hour Urine Test

20 Mar 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Melanie talks the nitty gritty of how to actually get a 24-hour urine test for kidney stones to understand what YOU can do to prevent...

035 Why it is dangerous to take "it worked for me" advice for kidney stones

13 Mar 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Melanie breaks down the top 3 reasons why it is harmful to take people's well-meaning advice for kidney stone prevention. Blog: Evide...

034 How I stopped getting kidney stones after ENDING my low oxalate diet

06 Mar 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Melanie chats with Gina, a student in Kidney Stone Nutrition School about her nearly 10 years of dealing with kidney stones. Blog: Lo...

033 Kale vs. Spinach for Kidney Stones

28 Feb 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Melanie tackles the age-old question "is kale high in oxalate?" - as well as the oxalate content of MANY other green veggies! Low Oxa...

032 Vitamin D, Omega 3, Magnesium & Creatine Supplements for Stones

21 Feb 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Melanie dives into the data behind some common supplements and if they are safe (or even beneficial!) for people with kidney stones. ...

031 How much sugar is ok?

14 Feb 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Eating too much sugar is associated with more kidney stones. This episode dives into WHO exactly should be concerned about sugar, and how much is ok t...

030 Why shouldn't EVERYONE follow a low oxalate diet to be safe?

07 Feb 2024

Contributed by Lukas

I don't recommend strict low oxalate diets for ANYONE. I often get asked why not? Doesn't it make sense to recommend a low oxalate diet just in case i...

029 When can I get a 24-hour urine test?

31 Jan 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Is it ok to get a 24-hour urine test when you STILL have kidney stones? Melanie dives into this question and when it might NOT be ideal to get a 24-ho...

028 How to prevent kidney stones if you've never had one

24 Jan 2024

Contributed by Lukas

We talk a lot about how important it is to get a 24-hour urine test to prevent kidney stones. But, what if you've never HAD a kidney stone, but still ...