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Freakonomics Radio

Policymaking Is Not a Science — Yet (Update)

09 Apr 2025

Description

Why do so many promising solutions in education, medicine, and criminal justice fail to scale up into great policy? And can a new breed of “implementation scientists” crack the code? SOURCES:Patti Chamberlain, senior research scientist at the Oregon Social Learning Center.John List, professor of economics at the University of Chicago.Lauren Supplee, former deputy chief operating officer at Child Trends.Dana L. Suskind, professor of surgery at the University of Chicago. RESOURCES:“How Can Experiments Play a Greater Role in Public Policy? 12 Proposals from an Economic Model of Scaling,” by Omar Al-Ubaydli, John List, Claire Mackevicius, Min Sok Lee, and Dana Suskind.“The Science of Using Science: Towards an Understanding of the Threats to Scaling Experiments,” by Omar Al-Ubaydli, John List, and Dana Suskind (The Field Experiments Website, 2019).“Inconsistent Device Use in Pediatric Cochlear Implant Users: Prevalence and Risk Factors,” by K.B.Wiseman and A.D. Warner-Czyz (U.S. National Library of Medicine National Institutes of Health, 2018). EXTRAS:"Why Do Most Ideas Fail to Scale?" by Freakonomics Radio (2022)."The Price of Doing Business with John List," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2022).Child Trends.Oregon Social Learning Center.T.M.W. Center for Early Learning and Public Health.The Field Experiments Website.

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Transcription

Full Episode

4.68 - 24.033 Stephen Dubner

Hey there, it's Stephen Dubner. We just published a two-part series on what some people call sludge, meaning all the frictions that make it hard to fill out tax forms or find a health care provider or even cancel a subscription. One part of our series involved government sludge and how it interferes with getting policy done.

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24.873 - 42.073 Stephen Dubner

The series reminded me of another episode we once made that I thought was worth hearing again. So we're playing it for you here as a bonus episode. It is called Policymaking is Not a Science Yet. We have updated facts and figures as necessary. As always, thanks for listening.

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50.462 - 60.111 Dana L. Suskind

Usually when children are born deaf, they call it nerve deafness. But it's really not the actual nerve. It's little tiny hair cells in the cochlea.

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60.752 - 70.121 Stephen Dubner

Dana Suskind is a physician scientist at the University of Chicago. And, more dramatically, she is a pediatric surgeon who specializes in cochlear implants.

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70.751 - 98.744 Dana L. Suskind

My job is to implant this incredible piece of technology which bypasses these defective hair cells and takes the sound from the environment, the acoustic sound, and transforms it into electrical energy, which then stimulates the nerve. And somebody who is severe to completely profoundly deaf after implantation can have normal levels of hearing. And it is pretty phenomenal.

99.534 - 113.678 Stephen Dubner

It is pretty phenomenal. If you ever need a good cry, a happy cry, just type in cochlear implant activation on YouTube. You'll see little kids hearing sound for the first time and their parents flipping out with joy.

113.698 - 121.381 John List

Good job! She's smiling. Oh, that's great!

132.921 - 133.982 Patti Chamberlain

That's your ears.

138.544 - 157.376 Stephen Dubner

The cochlear implant is a remarkable piece of technology, but really it's just one of many remarkable advances in medicine and elsewhere, created by devoted researchers and technologists and sundry smart people. You know what's even more remarkable? How often we fail to take advantage of these advances.

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