Host Troy Baker and The Last of Us showrunners Craig Mazin and Neil Druckmann unpack the Season 2 premiere. What’s going on between Joel and Ellie? What do new characters like Abby, Dina, and Gail bring to the story? And why were Craig and Neil scared after the success of Season 1? Listen and find out. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Chapter 1: Who are the hosts and creators behind The Last of Us Season 2 podcast?
Welcome to the official podcast for the HBO original series, The Last of Us. Season two is here, and suffice to say, I'm very excited to be back as your host. I'm Troy Baker, and I play Joel in The Last of Us video games, but joining me as always are the creators, the writers, executive producers, and showrunners of the HBO series, Craig Mazin.
Hello.
And Neil Druckmann. Hi. So... We're going to continue what we did for season one. Each week we'll break down the latest episode of The Last of Us, getting into the what, why and how, unpacking and no doubt processing all of it. So I want to warn listeners, these will be very spoiler heavy conversations.
So please, by all means, watch the episode first and then you can come back and join us for the rest of the conversation. So season one came out now over two years ago. Now you go into season two and you have the burden of that success on here. How do you meet that challenge?
Chapter 2: How did the success of Season 1 impact the creators’ approach to Season 2?
Well, I mean, I will say season one, I'm just going to be fully transparent. I don't do well with a lot of attention. I think the rough thing for me is that if something fails, I feel really, really bad. And if something succeeds the way the first season did, I just feel really, really scared. I don't know why.
There was something about the amount of attention and the size of the discussion and the size of the audience, which was way beyond what we expected. There's a general ballpark that you get from HBO. We'd love to hit this number and we... shot way past that number.
It became a cultural event. And that's where I got scared. For you, Neil, going into this, obviously, when the game came out, it was a remarkable release. Was there ever a part of you that said, maybe I can change some things or maybe I've got a second chance to do this again?
I had weird fears, which was like, I wanted to work on this and I knew we would change certain things. I was just very curious how would a TV audience would react? Is it going to be a different reaction? So there's just like a curiosity of like, what's going to happen here? So that's why I really kind of like relied on Craig in those instances to just say, what's best for the show?
Like really kind of let's hold each other accountable to do what's best for the show.
Yeah. We care about the audience. We want them to love it. But the specific criticisms or praise, ultimately you have to put a shield up or else you'll drown in it.
For people who are familiar with the games, familiar with the story, if season one taught us anything, it was you don't know what's coming. I love the perspective that sitting down watching this first episode, I have no idea what's going to happen. What was the baseline of you must know these are the things that right off the bat for this season that we want to get across from the very, very jump?
For me, the most important thing was to establish a new reality for Joel and Ellie. It's been five years. She is older. She is different. She is more independent. And Joel is older, too, and has settled into this interesting kind of mentorship life. He's become a pillar of this community that he, you know, initially was sort of at odds with.
And the two of them are operating in a world of safety and security and confidence. Jackson is safe. The way that they're interacting with infected is different. They feel more like hunters now than victims or people who are quarry. So that and introducing the new realities for Tommy and Maria and their child, who is in Maria's belly in season one, and here he is running around as a five-year-old,
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Chapter 3: Why was the Season 2 premiere episode titled 'Future Days'?
Our philosophy, too, when we shoot stuff, we try a lot of different things, get a lot of coverage, because we don't quite know all work when we're in the editing room, so we just want to have as many of those pieces as possible to play with.
And ultimately, the conclusion we came to is like, there was something ending about the unresolved note when Ellie says, okay, that worked best for season one in the same way that it worked for the game. But now we had this footage.
We could literally pick it up right from then and there and see Joel's reaction and kind of feel this tension because again, that conversation is so important for everything that's about to come. It felt appropriate to start there.
And the bait on the hook for me was Joel's reaction, which was new, because we never got to see it in the game. And when she says okay like that, what is he supposed to take from that? And I think it's a fantastic choice that Pedro makes there, which is... I'm pretty sure that's bad. I'm gonna choose to take it at face value anyway, because that's what's best for me. And it's fantastic.
But I think, you know, Neil is absolutely right. Just that finality of ending with Ellie's okay, especially the way Bella delivered that is just incredible. But then we had a chance to come back and remind people of this moment, the key moment that generates everything from this point forward. And then to give them that little bit more to see what Joel chooses to do there.
And you can already see in that choice the problem. The problem is he's going to pretend for as long as he can that she doesn't know, no matter what he gets back from her. So let's talk about Abby for a little bit.
He'll help me find him.
Yes. We'll help you find him. I'll help you kill him. Who is this character? And what can we expect from her in this season?
Well, the character is pretty much who the character is in the game. She is, as we find out, a firefly. She lives in Salt Lake City. We know that because we see the giraffes. They're burying people. And we don't know who this one cross is that she walks over to and drapes a firefly pendant over, but it's clearly somebody that mattered deeply to her.
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Chapter 4: How did the creators decide to start Season 2 where they did?
So those are the kinds of conversations we're having about where should certain things go, and then where should certain things be expanded? What else can we learn about these characters? And is there any opportunities to dig deeper and find out more of who they are, what makes them tick?
Abby and how we introduce her and the context we put her in, in this season, right off the bat, it's the first new scene really that we see after Joel and Ellie walk towards Jackson, is something that we talked about a lot. And part of it was the way she's introduced in the game is through you playing her.
And that experience is why the way I think you guys structured the information release worked so well. Because you are somebody, and it's a mystery, but who am I? Why am I here? What do I want? And why do I want it? But you're occupying her. We don't do that on the show. And so it felt like, okay,
Maybe the information delivery system should be different here because we don't have that opportunity to be a person.
When you're playing as the character, you have this immediate empathy towards them. Like, you don't have to have as much quote-unquote writing or drama or show as much relationships. That is more of like the fuel for how the game moves forward. We don't have that, so then we have to rely on other things. Yeah, that's a great point. Let's talk about Caitlin Deaver.
What drew you to Caitlin as the choice for Abby?
Caitlin was involved in the world of The Last of Us going back many years when it was going to be a movie. Ended up not happening, but she was in the running to play Ellie. And then when we made the show in season one, she kind of aged out of that role, so it wasn't really a consideration.
But then when we thought about the season and her name came up and we started discussing it, Caitlin is so talented. And I had the privilege of working with her a little bit on Uncharted 4 video game.
It was very easy to just close your eyes and see her as this character and see that because this character, going back to what Craig was saying earlier, just has this drive, this passion, this intensity, this intense pursuit of justice. Anne has to be extremely vulnerable at the same time and have all these other facets that we haven't even seen yet.
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Chapter 5: Who is Abby and what role does she play in Season 2?
Let's talk about where we find Ellie. Yeah.
Boom, motherfucker.
First of all, okay means stop.
Sorry, I was in the moment.
Second, you can't boom motherfucker people who land a first hit on you. Square in the face, by the way.
Well, I can obviously take a punch, so who cares? Fucking hard, by the way.
I pulled it.
You pulled it?
Yeah, he pulled it.
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Chapter 6: Why was Caitlin Deaver chosen to play Abby and how does her portrayal differ from the game?
It's fascinating to see how Ellie finds her purpose in fighting. That's where she feels effective. That's where she feels like she's her own person. And I think a lot of this is about separation. And when you separate from the adult that has taken care of you and raised you, you want to figure out how you're an adult. And adults are effective at things. Ellie is not like Joel. Joel builds.
Ellie doesn't build stuff. She doesn't do construction. But Ellie can do violence. And she does it right here. And then in the next scene we see her, she's blowing the head off a clicker, as Tommy teaches her. And her reaction when that head explodes is, oh! It's a delight. Because those things are dangerous animals. They're free to kill.
Yeah, it's another way to get control in this unpredictable world. If you're more powerful, and again, this violence, this martial arts that she's studying, it allows her to have more power in this world and thereby have more control over her life.
Another new character is, oddly enough, Jackson. This is a character in the show. Like, it's a fully functioning city and we see the community that's built up from where we were in season one.
We talk a lot about community. That word is going to come up more than a few times because that is what Jackson is. It is the only community that I can think of that we've... shown, certainly is, that's functional. It may be the only functional community at all in the world. We don't know because beyond the borders of where we've traveled is a bit invisible to us. But Jackson is functioning.
It is taking in refugees. Joel and Tommy are working on renovating some of the houses that weren't livable so that they can house more people, so they can grow. This is what humans do in success. This is what was going on back in the hunter-gatherer days they began. A little small thing becomes London one day. And that's what's happening here. There is a power to that. There is a security to that.
There is also a danger that you become a little complacent. You think you've figured it out. It's been five years. You are bringing the best of what we are back, arts and joy and peace and safety and harmony. But don't overestimate your place in this world.
I think last season we talked about how wide is humanity. In season one, a lot of it is just Joel and Ellie. And the fear Joel had in taking Ellie on is that, oh no, If I have these same feelings I've had before in my past, I have something to lose. And Jackson is this really special place. And, you know, as Craig is saying, maybe the only place that is this special.
Now there's something to lose. There's also something to fight for.
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Chapter 7: How is Ellie’s character and fighting style portrayed differently in Season 2?
You know, in the game, Dina talks about her relationship with Joel, but we actually never see it. So this was one of those changes we decided to make very early on, is like wanting to show that relationship. And through that relationship, we get to see how both of these characters feel about Ellie. And Joel is good at a few things, whether he knows it or not. He's good at surviving and killing.
He's good at fixing things and building things, which is maybe where he's most comfortable. But he's a good parent, like, with some dark elements mixed in there. Sure. But he can't help but, like, mentor this girl that is drawn to him because he is this figure in this community.
But he probably has an ulterior motive, which is, like, Ellie won't talk to him, so he could find out how Ellie is doing through this other character who has become a really good friend to Ellie.
It was important... I think to get across that Joel was struggling with why. It's easy for anyone to go, oh, I'll tell you why, because look at how she ended season one. You swore and she said, okay, and she doesn't seem like she believes him. It was important to see that Joel hasn't kind of gotten there yet. And that, in fact, this is relatively new. This is a new development.
Now, we're five years later. That means things must have been going okay for a while. And now they're not. And he's struggling with that. It is also important in this scene to introduce Dina because she is an incredibly important character to this story and what happens and what goes forward. And she is so different from Ellie and Joel. I think she represents a much more positive, healthy,
way to be she seems at least healthier and more positive she seems like a force for good she's wild she loves life yeah she's outgoing she's confident there was something that i didn't realize was missing in ellie until i saw it in dina and that's that spark that spunk that pluckiness that well i'll go take on anything dina loves people ellie and joel loved each other
And that was the size of their community. And you feel like Dina is this ray of sunshine. And Isabella Merced... Well, we asked her to do so many different things in this season, and we will watch as that happens. But one of the things that I love about how she portrays Dina here in this first episode is that you can feel the warmth radiating off of her.
You want to be her friend because she's so funny and on top of stuff. She's charming. She's charming. She's really, really charming. You know what I love? Just a side note. Yeah. Again, Dina. Isabella is so, every time she's on screen, I just start smiling automatically. And when she comes to pick up Ellie to do the patrol, she's like trying to get them back together, you know?
Better? Yeah, better. She with all that hardware. Like Curtis and Viper. You know, those movies Joel likes? Yeah. I was actually going to maybe watch them tomorrow night with him, if you want to join.
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Chapter 8: What is the significance of the community of Jackson in The Last of Us Season 2?
Oh, yeah. Actually, I am. But I'm not going to do it anymore.
This was a scene that actually has its roots in season one. I wrote a version of this for the first episode where we see Joel talking to a therapist. And it didn't fit in perfectly. It also felt a little bit off track from getting to Ellie. It was just delaying getting to Ellie, which was really important to us. But it was good, actually.
It was a good thing that we didn't do it in season one because there's more subtext now to discuss. And I love characters that lie. I think that is one of the basic human actions. We don't give it enough credit because we do it all the time.
The idea of lying or obscuring or holding back or concealing, even in a session with a therapist, a job that would be extraordinarily useful in a barter system in the post-apocalypse where everyone has suffered, everyone has been traumatized. And Gail is not just a therapist. She's good. She's really smart.
And she's also brave because she's doing something in the scene that is scary, in part because she needs to, because she herself has been traumatized, and in part because she needs to demonstrate by example.
Say the thing you're afraid to say.
I can help you. Say it out loud, no matter what it is, no matter how bad. I promise I will help.
Did you do something to her? Did you hurt her? Then what? What did you do?
Joel's emotions are connected to Ellie. What he is struggling with is the fact that she's pulling away from him. And he doesn't, or at least he claims to not know why. And we can see this. I mean, part of this episode is a little bit of a mystery. What is going on with the two of them? Right. Exactly. Because it's bad. And he's struggling with it, he's asking Dina, he's asking his therapist.
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Chapter 9: Who is Dina and how is her relationship with Joel and Ellie explored in the show?
Pedro... has these almost invisible changes and choices that because they're almost invisible, they're extraordinarily visible. The way he goes from guilt to resolution in a moment. The way he goes from, I'm trapped and I'm like a little child who has to face up to what I've done to... I am indomitable and I'm leaving is remarkable.
And sometimes when I'm directing and I have a situation like that, where I've just got two great actors facing off, it's like an action scene as far as I'm concerned. Emotional action scene. An emotional action scene, I always say it's like driving a Ferrari. I mean...
I come in there and I mostly just clarify some subtext things that might, you know, not popped out and then I get the hell out of the way.
Yeah. And I think the thread you're starting to see here between like Abby and her reaction to Joel, Ellie and her reaction to Joel and Gail and her reaction to Joel is that there are certain actions that have consequences and we're starting to feel the ripple effects of those actions.
Just come to see if you were going to that thing tonight. Be good to show your face.
I don't know, yeah. Maybe. I don't know.
You been playing much?
Enough, yeah.
Strings are shot. We'll put some new ones on for you.
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